---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brewing water pH strangeness (John_E_Schnupp)
  Unfair Competitions or Poor Losers? (John Sullivan)
  Any problems w/animal dander affecting beer? (Kate Cone)
  Hops and milk production? (AJN)
  Apology to Jeff Renner and HBD readers ("Alan McKay")
  Malta, Botulism and Canning Foods ("Alan McKay")
  O2 et all (TheTHP)
  Misc/AHA/Legal stuff (Louis Bonham)
  Re: MINI KEGS (Joe Rolfe)
  Yeasty taste with liquid yeast ("Jennings, James")
  Re: Hombrew on CNN (Oliver Weatherbee)
  Re: lawnmower beer (Glyn Crossno)
  Mash efficiency (Mark Arneson)
  Delaware brewing (Matthew Arnold)
  Two Dogs Lemon Brew/Lawnmower brew (Barry Finley)
  dry ice in fermenter/yeast cake problem? (Rae Christopher J)
  RE: Thoughts wanted on 1.5 litre mini kegs (Rory Stenerson)
  HomeMade Crystal Malt -- Questions (KennyEddy)
  RE: Blue Moon / Results of my accidental full decoction (Matt Gadow)
  A big thanks--Was new kegger needs help (Paul R Buettner)
  Lambic/AHA Commitments (RANDY ERICKSON)
  Re:  Formula for calculating %-alcohol needed (Andrew E Howard)
  Homebrewing on TV ("Richard Cuff")
  Re: Victorian traditions; a "pipe" (Scott Murman)
  Chile Beer ("BRIAN F. THUMM")
  Rubber Gasket update (Gordon & Cindy Camp)
  Re: Contest Entry (NAZELROD)
  Re: Contest Entry (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Botulism facts and figures ("Alan McKay")
  Cylindriconical Fermenter (Joe Stone)


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:10:15 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: Brewing water pH strangeness




Jim's "problem?"

>I read my tap water pH at ~6.4 but when I boil it for about
>20 mins to remove chlorine I get areading of ~ 8.8.

What is the temp of the pH readings?  I can't remember which
way the pH changes in relation to temp but I do know that the
effect is significant, especially if your pH meter (do you
use a meter or paper?) is not temperature compensated.
Assuming the temp is correct, what strength is your acid?

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:19:41 -0700
From: John Sullivan <sullvan at anet-stl.com>
Subject: Unfair Competitions or Poor Losers?

Dennis or Jennifer or Dennis & Jennifer wrote:

>I have a question to all the seasoned contest winners.  We just recently
>got the results to a contest that we entered by checking
>http://www.ghgcorp.com/rlivingston/rendezbrew.html I found it a little
>stange that almost every winner was from the club that sponsered the
>contest??  We are not being "poor losers" I just would like to know if
>anybody has a way to weed out the not so fair contests and enter the
>good ones.  Any suggestions or thoughts about results like to ones
>posted on the Lunar Rendezbrew page would be appreciated.

I checked that site out.  There were six clubs with winning entries and 
at least six entries for individuals not associated with a club.  This is 
normal as far as my experience goes.  At homebrew competitions (unless 
you are dealing with one of the large National comps), the host club 
always enters more beer than other local clubs.  Other local clubs enter 
more beers than non-local clubs.  Non-local clubs enter more beers than 
unaffiliated individuals.  As a result, more winners come from the host 
and local clubs.  

Your posting might have been more gracious if you hadn't associated your 
losing with the competition in question.  By doing this you have 
insinuated publicly that this competition may not be on the up and up.  
Clubs that have annual competitions have little to gain by rigging things 
and a lot to lose.  My club's main source of annual income after dues is 
our annual competition.  You would not long have a homebrew competition 
if someone is slamming your competition publicly as being unfair.

Even though all of judging is a crapshoot, you might just want to 
consider the possibility that your entries did not measure up to those 
entered by the FINE RESPECTED local homebrew clubs that were mentioned in 
the list of winners on that home page.  I am not from that region, but I 
am familiar with the reputation of the Bay Area Mashtronauts and Foam 
Rangers.  I probably should not have even responded to this since you are 
going to be flamed big time anyway.

John Sullivan
St. Louis, MO

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:35:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: katecone at ime.net (Kate Cone)
Subject: Any problems w/animal dander affecting beer?

We just got a new dog, and her kennel is in the room adjacent to my
"brewery" (extra kitchen). There is no door to the kitchen, and although I'm
trying to be meticulous about vacuuming up dog hair, I'm wondering if anyone
has had a problem with dander, etc. affecting their beer. I'm hoping to brew
this week.
I'll wipe all surfaces down w/bleach & water solution. 

Kate Cone


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:19:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Hops and milk production?

Hi all

I was talking to my in-laws yesterday (they rent a house on a dairy 
farm), and they were telling me of a practice that the farmers used to do 
a long time ago.

Apparently, the farmers would have the spent hops from a local brewery 
brought in for the cows to eat.  This was to make milk production 
(supposedly) go up.

This practice is no longer allowed, does anybody know why milk production 
goes up when hops are used as feed?  Does anybody know why this is no 
longer allowed?

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:52:54 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Apology to Jeff Renner and HBD readers


Hi folks,

I'd like to publicly apologize to Jeff Renner for calling him a "yahoo"
in a recent
HBD.  As much as I disagree with his guesswork on canning wort, the
language
I used was uncalled for.  My apologies extend as well to the fine people
who
read this forum.  I tend to get a big emotional about something as
serious as
dying, and don't like to see guesswork being propagated.  Mr. Renner may
be a
fine brewer, but the fact that even the Siebel institute couldn't
provide an answer
on canning wort shows that knowing how to brew beer and knowing how to
can
foods are two entirely different things altogether.  We shouldn't forget
that.

But it still doesn't excuse the tone of my message.

sorry,
 -Alan McKay


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:19:17 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Malta, Botulism and Canning Foods

HBD readers,

Well, it seems as though up in as deep as I've ever been in my life.
Please
accept in my defense the following letter, which I just sent to
someone's 
private Email.  There are some very important points in here which
explain
my feelings on this issue.

 -Alan


Well, I haven't actually done the research myself, so I obviously don't
have the
answers first-hand.  However, I was an active home-canner before
becoming
a homebrewer, and have read several good books on the topic, some of
which
go into detail about some of the research that's been done ("Putting
Food By",
for example).  Yes, there is danger in everything we do, which is
exactly why
my page on home canning states explicity that you should only be doing
it
if you've personally read a good book on it.  This  sentiment is also
echoed
in the newsgroups and the FAQs of those groups.
(http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/yeast/pressure-can.html)

Everything I've read stresses very solemnly that boiling water canning
just 
isn't safe above pH 4.6, since botulism spores can survive up to 230+F,
and 
above that pH.  As I stated in my apology that I just posted to HBD,
brewing
beer and canning foods are 2 entirely different things.  The fact that
even the
Siebel Institute couldn't provide an answer on this matter stresses that
point,
and should make homebrewers all the more wary.  To make matters worse,
a recent issue of Zymurgy actually gave details on canning starter wort
with
the "open kettle" method (i.e. pour boiling wort into jars and screw on
the lids,
no processing afterwards).

When there is so much mis-information in the homebrewing community about
this matter, as  homebrewer and home canner, I feel it my duty to try to
educate
people.  Then people come along with their guesswork and destroy all
that hard 
work.  That's extremely frustrating.

Would you take advice on making beer from someone who's never read a 
single book on the topic?  I hope not.  Why then should you take advice
on
canning wort from someone who's never read a single thing on that?

I have no idea what "Malta" is, nor how it is made.  I do, however, know
what
I've read about canning foods and liquids, and it points to the above
practices
being unsafe.  

Anyway, it still doesn't excuse the tone of my message, which is why I
posted
the apology.  In the future I'll try to keep from getting so hot under
the collar.

cheers,
 -Alan


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:22:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: TheTHP at aol.com
Subject: O2 et all

Jason,

My O2 setup was 67$ .05 micron stainless stintered stone, regulator and small
bottle. 1 lb? The size you usually see for propane welding torches. Not a
bargain but it is the "OXYGENATOR" TM. $20 for the stone isnt bad, its by far
the most expensive part. Directions say to boil it 10 min Before and After
use. PITA, but it works. and Boy does it work! 3 day ferments every time! Im
real happy with mine, but O2 is O2 and you can bet Sams club or Home Depot
has better prices on refill bottles that buying the "OXYGENATOR" TM. Im not
an employee... just a happy homebrewer...!

Pete's
I'm still collecting a pete's wicked ale recipes, I have 6 so far but only 2
all grain. Ray Daniels outlines a strategy for Petes in his book Designing
Great Beers so I guess thats 3. 

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:23:19 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: Misc/AHA/Legal stuff

A few comments:======
John Kessel takes Jim Liddil to task for his
perceived slam of other NHC winners.  Methinks
Mr. Kessel is unaware of the fact that Jim
Liddil also won BoS at the NHC a couple of
years ago with, surprise, a plambic.  And he
had to put up with a bunch of comments such as
the one he made in obvious jest.
======
David Houseman reports, in general terms, about
how the new Board of Advisors and the "new" AHA
staff are really going to do things differently.
I wish Mr. Houseman all the luck in this endeavor,
but forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical at this
point.

The reason, quite simply, if that even if the AHA
staff is all new, they still don't any of the major
shots.  Even Jim Parker, who's doing a great job
of trying to get the ox out of the ditch, won't
even discuss certain issues (such as the lack of
democracy in the AHA) because, by his own admission,
he has no ability to do anything about it.

The real issue: is the AHA going to evolve from being
CP's captive organization?  For example, if the
Board of Advisors "advised" that it would be better for
the AHA to focus on the domestic situation, become less
revenue-driven, and dump the Cult of Charlie Worship,
what would happen?  Would Charlie and Cathy accede to
this advice, or would we see a repeat of the BJCP
fiasco?

Is real change in the air?  I hope so.  However, given
Charlie's nonattendance at the Board of Advisors'
meetings in Cleveland, and his stated position on
complaints (too busy having fun to even be bothered
with reading them), I fear that history is repeating
itself.
==========
Oliver claims that HOTD Brewery in Oregon can, in
fact, legally produce a true eisbock (Eve) because
"they do not commercially produce Eve . . . . [and]
it was for their own personal consumption and their
friends/guests."

Wrongo.  To legally distill a beverage in the US, you
*must* have a BATF (and probably a state distillery)
permit, period.  There is *no* exemption for "personal
consumption" -- without the proper permits, they can
not produce an eisbock legally any more than I can run
a still in my backyard.

If they're not selling it, great.  But that doesn't
make it legal, nor does it remove the potential sanctions
(confiscation of equipment, among others) if they get
caught.  Bottom line:  so long as ice distilling is
considered distilling by the regulators, YOU CAN'T
LEGALLY MAKE EISBOCK IN THE U.S. WITHOUT A PERMIT!

Pardon the shouting, but I'd hate to see someone get
into major trouble based on an inaccurate statement
of the law.

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at phoenix.net



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:19:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: MINI KEGS

 i had tried them one several different batches, i never got 
a batch out of them that i really liked.  i could always
(blind taste - too!) detect a tinny/metal note in kegs that were
stored for over a normal referement in the keg time frame (about 2 wks).

if the keg were filled with precarbed beer, and drunk quickly (within a week)
i had trouble picking the tinny/metal flavor out...

most of them came from europe, and were to be made at one time here in the 
states.  they were fairly expensive - even in container lots...no deals
here...

the ones we had were a pain to wash, you have to be careful with the strength
and chemistry of the cleaning solution , and the had an internal seam that i 
could not trust.  the bungs were somewhat trouble to extract, replace these
every so often.

commercially it is a good package, alot better than those damn clear growlers.
and a bunch of breweries reuse them wth some resonable success.

joe

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:19:18 -0500
From: "Jennings, James" <James.Jennings at COMPAQ.com>
Subject: Yeasty taste with liquid yeast

Greetings HB Collective!

	Forgive me if I'm reviving a long dead thread but has anyone ever 
noticed a yeasty taste in their final product when using liquid yeast? 
 When I have used dried yeast, I've never had this problem (and, "No", 
I'm not shaking the bottle before drinking and "Yes", I'm using two 
stage fermentation and proper de-contamination techniques.).

I normally kick back and just absorb but, after a ruined batch by my 
buddy and myself (well, not ruined-we still drank both of them), I 
just need to know what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks!

James Jennings
Systems Engineer
Compaq Computer Corporation
Email:  James.Jennings at compaq.com
Phone: 281-514-8968



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:35:30 -0400
From: oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu (Oliver Weatherbee)
Subject: Re: Hombrew on CNN

Alan Talman in HBD #2471 talked about the CNN piece on homebrew.
For anyone interested, a text version of this story can be found 
on the CNN website at 

http://cnn.com/CNN/Programs/americanedge/program/brew/ .

One thing not to good for the AHA/Papazian is a description
of him being carried into the convention in a casket from
which he is screaming "Party!".

________________________________________________________
Oliver Weatherbee			oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu
			First State Brewers
	http://triton.cms.udel.edu/~oliver/firststate/
________________________________________________________

		

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:49:01 -0500
From: Glyn Crossno <Crossno at novell2.tn.cubic.com>
Subject: Re: lawnmower beer

"I have trouble understanding the concept. People seem to mean a light,
wimpy flavored
beer - possible with the mistaken concept that this is refreshing. Am I
understanding this correctly? "

I can't resist.  If I ?wanted? a wimpy beer I *might* try an american
lager.  I want flavor, but not a high FG.   Lawnmower beer to me is a
beer I can drink all day long, I have a big yard/field.  And then carry
some more down to the lake and drink while I cool/wash off.

Here in my part of TN with the hot dry weather I'm picking my batch of
hops!

Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs, TN
Crossno at novell2.tn.cubic.com
- --
Have you hugged your bines today?



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:48:10 -0400
From: Mark Arneson <marnes at hom.net>
Subject: Mash efficiency

Hi all, 

I can't seem to find a formula for calculating my
mash efficiency.  I think they're comming out a little
low (and I think I know why) but I'd like to know
what to expect.

Thanx in advance!

Mark
marnes at bigfoot.com


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:17:03 GMT
From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Delaware brewing

>Just today the Delaware Attorney General's office reversed the July 10,
>1997 Alcoholic Beverage Control Commission's stated ban on homebrewing
>in the First State! They still have to look at competitions and
>transport, but we are on our way to having these approved by the
>legislature (General Assembly) in January! And no worries over raids and
>seizure of brewing equipment! Thank you AG!!!!

Welcome back indeed! It's good to see that (at last) there is a bit of
sanity amongst the powers that be! Now everybody can get back to
brewing and fretting over botulism.

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:27:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Barry Finley <bfinley at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: Two Dogs Lemon Brew/Lawnmower brew 

Sorry to be bringing this up again, 'cause I know that all of this was
discussed a few weeks ago but my hard drive crashed over the weekend. I
was planning on brewing a lemon brew similar to Two Dogs, but all of the
information that I had has gone to the big hard drive in the sky. If
anyone has any interesting information or recepies, could you please send
them to me. Also, I briefly remember that one recepie called for several
different types of lemons. What were they and how can I get them? Are they
expensive? Thanks in advance for any help you can give.


On another note, I have been observing the lawnmower beer posts for a few
years. Happens every summer. It has been suggested that a heavily hopped
ale works good. Sounds good to me to, but to tell you the truth,  Working
outside during a Georgia Summer for a few hours has a tendency to cause
one to become so thirsty that only pure water will get the job done.
Anyone that visited Atlanta during the Olympics will understand what I'm
talking about. I quench  my thirst with water, I quench my taste buds with
home brew!       Everone have a wonderful summer and drink plenty of water
if you live in a humid area. Dehydration can lead to a great many
problems, some of them very serious. Heat exhaustion and heat stroke can
be life threatning events. Stay healty and brew on. 
*************************
    Barry C. Finley  
  College of Education
The University of Georgia
*************************


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:32:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rae Christopher J <3cjr7 at qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: dry ice in fermenter/yeast cake problem?

i'm still brewing a lovely barley wine.  it has been in the secondary for
about two weeks, and still bubbles at about 1 or 2 blurps per min.  this
is fine, it is what i expected.  

so the question is this: since i'll be leaving it in the fermenter for
another two or more weeks, should i transfer it to a second glass carbouy?
i refer to my three books on brewing, and it looks like this would be a
good idea, as the yeast starts to break down after a couple of weeks of
sitting at the bottom.  i'm using wyeast 1728, scottish ale, with an og of
1.110, currently 1.035.  should i transfer it?

on that note, i've been thinking for some time about transferring beer in
general.  idealy, when going from the primary to the secondary, i
shouldn't oxidize the beer.  not having the money to get a co2 injector, i
thought...what if i just dropped a handful of dry ice (frozen co2) into
the secondary.  as it sublimated, it would form a layer of co2 at the
bottom, where the beer goes.  as it filled with beer, the layer of co2
would rise.  the beer would not get oxidized.  the problems i expect
include: sudden temp change shocking yeast.  sudden temp change breaking
glass carbout.

has anyone any experience in this?

if you reply personally, i'll summarize and post.

BTW, i'll be posting the full story (and boy, was it wacky) of the barley
wine when i bottle.

___________________________________________________________
This is Chris' signature:

C____ R__
    &%

 His home page is at http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3cjr7/



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:39:20 -0400
From: Rory Stenerson <71762.1664 at compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Thoughts wanted on 1.5 litre mini kegs

Lady Godiva wrote:  =


"Has anyone had experience with the 'mini kegs'?  I am interested in buyi=
ng
4 of them, but want to hear from someone who has used them."

Yes, you'll get plenty of fiz in the 5litre mini kegs so back off on your=

priming sugar or DME.  Suggest 3/4 dry cup for priming.  There is a
relatively larger volume of beer to head space in the container.  We real=
ly
like the mini kegs because they're so space efficient and they're great t=
o
take to parties, (like bringing a six pack.)

Wish you joy of your homebrewing,

Rory Stenerson,
V.P. - State College Underground Maltsters, S.C.U.M.
State College, PA USA
71762.1664 at compuserve.com

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:06:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: HomeMade Crystal Malt -- Questions

I made some crystal malt this weekend, and ended up with my best-tasting
batch yet.  But I have a few questions that maybe you could help me with.

First, let me outline the process I used so that the questions make more
sense:

1.  Soak pale-ale malt overnight in water.  Keep refrigerated to prevent
spoilage.  Grain absorbed about 1/2 quart water per pound, so use 3/4 to 1
quart of water per pound of grain.

2.  Drain malt well in a strainer, then place in covered casserole dish.
 Place in pre-heated 150F oven.

3.  Allow to hold at 150F for two hours.

4.  Remove grain from casserole dish.  Spread on cookie sheet and place back
in oven, uncovered.  Raise heat to 250F.

5.  Turn grain occasionally.  Monitor color & flavor by removing a few
grains, *allowing to cool*, and tasting.  Should be crunchy.  Remove when
desired color is achieved.

Comments on each step:

Step 1)  The grain smelled and tasted a bit funky coming out of the fridge,
but not really enough to cause concern.  Could just be normal for wet malt.
 The final product came out fine but perhaps limiting the soak time to only a
few hours would be better.  The soaking water was clear when drained off
(except for some chaff) so I don't think much starch was carried out of the
husks.  The sweetness of the final product backs up this conjecture.

Steps 2 & 3)  The malt, having been in the refrigerator, was "cold" when I
placed it in the casserole dish.  Also, the wet malt was probably 3 to 4
inches deep in the dish.  So, it took FOREVER to warm up to 150F.  I'd guess
it took at least two hours to warm up (I checked periodically but didn't
really note the time), and then another couple hours to "mash".

Two things could be done differently here.  Either add boiling water to the
strained cold malt (about 1 quart per pound; steep a couple minutes to level
off the temperature, then drain), to heat it to near 150F before putting in
the casserole dish, or (probably better) spread very thin on a large cookie
sheet or two to allow the heat to reach all the grain more quickly.  In
either case, keep it covered to retain moisture during "mashing".  I used a
casserole dish for easier handling but any covered arrangement should work.

Step 5)  I found that the malt is chewy and sticky while hot but gets dry &
crunchy quickly as it cools, so be sure to sample the malt after it sits on
the counter for a few minutes, NOT right out of the oven.  Apparently the
sugars are pretty much "melted" at 250F but set up hard when cooled.  I let
the malt stay in the oven a long time until I figured this out, thinking the
malt was still "wet".  Start to finish, I bet the stuff was in the oven nine
hours!

I weighed the grain before soaking, after soaking, and after cooking.  I
started with 19 ounces of pale malt, which turned into 36 ounces of wet malt,
which turned into 18 ounces of crystal malt.

*****

The resulting product was delicious!  I compared it with some store-bought
crystal and thought it blew it away, at least just on a flavor basis.
 Probably would be great with milk in a cereal bowl. The commercial stuff was
not very sweet and actually tasted kinda crappy alongside the home-made
stuff; mine was quite caramelly.  But that rasied a couple of questions.

1)  If my malt is noticibly sweeter than commercial crystal, does that mean
it contains more simple sugars, and therefore would be highly fermentable?
 The slow temperature rise presumably allowed beta amylase to clean out the
starch reserves long before alpha had much of a chance.  However, the sugars
seemed to be quite caramelized (based on the taste); does this affect
fermentability?

2)  I guess it's *possible* that the crystal I've been buying is just plain
no good -- poor quality or old.  The store I get it from stores the malt
(Hugh Baird if I'm not mistaken) in sealed buckets, and I think their
turnover is pretty good, but who knows.  Is good-quality commercial crystal
supposed to be this sweet?  Or did I make a sugary roasted malt, but not
crystal?

3)  Would a higher "mash" temperature -- say 160F -- be better in this
regard?  Should I expect less perceived sweetness if I can get to 160F
quickly (avoiding a lot of beta-amylase activity)?

I plan to "make" some chocolate / black malt soon; my next brew will be a
porter made with these homemade specailty grains (just for fun).  Homegrown
hops would be the ultimate final touch!  I would definitely not hesitate to
brew with this stuff, though whether the result would be the same as breewing
with "real" crystal is a question.  However, if the consensus seems to be
that the sugars in the crystal malt I made are going to ferment completely
out, I might try making another batch of crystal with some of the changes
outlined above.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:10:44 -0700
From: Matt Gadow <mgadow at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Blue Moon / Results of my accidental full decoction

Chiming in on the Belgian Wit beer thread, I also promised to post
results of an accidental decoction of my witbeer (forgot to turn off the
cooker when it hit 154deg!) from a couple of weeks ago.
The witbeer finished nicely, and did not darken substantially above
style.  Preliminary tastings while at Lake Powell (after one week in the
corny) were a bit astringent, but ice was at a premium, and the beer was
left a little warm.  Upon return, and some cold conditioning (45deg) for
an additional 10 days, the beer has cleaned up nicely!  

For the record (and the thread), I didn't end up adding any lactic acid
at kegging, since I sparged with lactic-acidified water, and the
sourness seemed about right at kegging time.

In fact a comparative tasting last night at a party resulted in some
comments that mine was "better than" the blue moon that was being served
at the party.  Better consisted of "fresher taste", and "more pronounced
spiciness" (bitter orange and coriander).  In addition to the additional
conditioning time, I think that this style benefits from a little bit
colder serving temp than my usual ~50 pale ale serving temp.  Where do
we find those dual chamber, twin thermostat refrigerators again?

Wow! My beer, better than a Coors micro! Now that's some praise.  Not to
jump on Kit's case or anything, but I would also (politely) suggest that
Celis or Hoegarden would be a much better target than Blue Moon,
although of all of the big boy micros, at least this one wasn't called
"Blue Dog", and it actually tastes somehat like the style it
represents.  I was at a ski resort last winter, and they were serving
Blue Moon (p)wit ON TAP!  Better than Bud, Bud Light, or 50/50!

Matt Gadow
mgadow at ix.nospnetcom.com
"if you're not livin on the edge,
You're takin up too much space"

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:27:07 -0600
From: Paul R Buettner <paulr at dzn.com>
Subject: A big thanks--Was new kegger needs help

Greetings All:
I want to thank all those who supplied me with such help on my new keg
system.  I was covered up with e-mail.  Opinions differed but the forced
method won out 3 to 1.  I used a old kit I had, Morgans Iron Bark Dark, two
lbs. light malt powder, dry yeast ( I did rehydrate) and no hops.  I when
with this because I expected to toss out the first batch, well we about
sucked the stainless of the inside of the keg.  I had broken the first rule
of homebrewing, I worried.  I now have 5 cases of 22oz. bottles in the way.  
Again thanks to all who offered help.
Paul

       Paul R. Buettner
       paulr at dzn.com
         El Paso  Texas


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:34:09 -0700
From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Lambic/AHA Commitments

John Kessel takes exception to Jim's comment:

"And who would have thought another plambic would win hboy?  I
guess everything else was not very good." 

and then goes on to defend the style.

John, when you selectively edited Jim's post, you left off a very
important part, I quote:  ":-)"

That's a sideways smiley face.  On the 'net that means, "I just made a
joke, you may laugh if you wish."

Jim is a bit of a lambic fanatic -- I'm positive he's just as thrilled about a
lambic brewer winning HBOY as the rest of us are.  And I'm sure he
meant no offense to the other winners at the Nationals.

 ------------------------------

In a related post, David Houseman writes:

Jim asks:
Ok so I have a question for all those who went to the AHA conference. 
Particularly for the AHA "Advisors".  Has the AHA presented a plan for
actual change?  Are they going to address the various concerns raised
here and on rcb?  Or will they continue to only provide lip service? 

Sez David:
"I don't have the time to make a complete report at this time but will
provide some insight from my point of view.  First of all, we discussed
only briefly any past problems.  These were, in the collective view,
problems brought about by the past AHA staff, which has entirely
changed.  So trying to rehash past sins would not be very useful."

I appreciate David's comments, but I am having a hard time accepting his
viewpoint.  I would sure like some additional information.  

I was under the impression that it was the management of the AHA who
were behind the efforts to drop the BJCP in favor of an AHA-controlled
judging program that would be "fun" rather than education-based, not the
staff.  If the bad old staff were responsible, does that mean that this
project will be scrapped now?

Also the AHA has decided to form a new retailers' trade association to
compete with the HWBTA and presumably make a couple of bucks in the
bargain.  Was this a plan from the good staff or the bad staff?

It seems a little unfair and a little unbelievable to blame all of the AHA's
problems, many of which are perceived as profit motivated, on
now-absent indians with no responsibility being taken by the chiefs. Jim
asked two specific questions, both of which seem deserving of an
answer:  "Has the AHA presented a plan for actual change?  Are they
going to address the various concerns raised here and on rcb?"

I have seen quite an increase in the use of the words "new" and
"better", but I have not seen a lot of hard facts.  Can David or anyone
else  shed a little light?

David also says "Of course results are what counts but I can assure
you that the new BOA (some 12+) are committed to working with the
AHA to make significant changes."

I agree, it's the results that matter.  Can anyone describe how the BOA
will work with the AHA, especially with respect to disagreements?  I am
involved with an advisory panel working with a State agency, and it can
be pretty toothless at times.

Thanks -- Randy


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:05:15 EDT
From: aehoward at juno.com (Andrew E Howard)
Subject: Re:  Formula for calculating %-alcohol needed

I understand that this is correct:

Alcohol by weight = [76.08(OG-FG)] / [1.775-OG]

Alcohol by volume = abw x [FG/0.794]

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:05:57 -0400
From: "Richard Cuff" <rdcuff at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Homebrewing on TV

In HBD #2471, Alan Talman wrote about the mention of homebrewing on
CNN.

Homebrewing also was featured last night (Sunday, 27 July) on HGTV -
that's "Home & Garden Television", a cable channel - in their program
"What's Your Hobby?"

This program has people talking about their hobbies; according to a
friend, the segment on homebrew walked through the basic brewing
method.

I suspect the program on homebrewing will be rebroadcast at some
point, but HGTV's web site (http://www.hgtv.com) was acting up this
morning when I tried to pull up schedule details.

Richard Cuff
Lutherville, MD

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:42:42 -0700
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Victorian traditions; a "pipe" 


The discussion of the origins of the word pipe reminded me that I had
a project I'd been meaning to get to.  We were discussing the origins
of some of the strange brewing terms on IRC one evening, and so I
started looking them up on webster.  I collected them to an HTML page,
and I was hoping to expand it.  Perhaps the collective can help by
suggesting other terms of interest or providing more information.  The
link is on my web page http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy.  I'll add
pipe and hogshead to the page.

BTW, for any others of you who enjoy words and their meaning or
origins, there is a great email server called A Word A Day.  Info on
it is available at http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/index.html.

SM

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:42:05 -0400
From: "BRIAN F. THUMM" <THUMMBF at GWSMTP.NU.COM>
Subject: Chile Beer

If you have enough chilies, you can make your chile beer a la Cave Creek Chile
Beer - with an individual chile in each bottle.  Cave Creek Chile Beer has a
noticeable chile flvor, and they don't do anything special to the chile.  They
don't split it open or anything.  It is added to the bottle, and it steeps for
weeks in the bottle.  Great with Mexican food....

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:16:47 -0400
From: Gordon & Cindy Camp <revcamp at epix.net>
Subject: Rubber Gasket update

Thanks to all who put their $.02 in on this issue. To let you know the 
most suggested suggestion was to rebottle and cork, followed by sealing 
wax. Well I've rebottled most of the mead and am experimenting with 
several waxed bottles. I'll let you know the results in 21 years. 
Actually when Graeme turns 16 and he goes on my car insurance I'll 
probably open em and drown my pain.

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:09:24 EST5
From: NAZELROD at UUE.vitro.com
Subject: Re: Contest Entry

     Dennis & Jennifer Britten <djbnajke at iserv.net> Wrote:
     
     
     >I have a question to all the seasoned contest winners.  We just 
     >recently
     >got the results to a contest that we entered by checking
     >http://www.ghgcorp.com/rlivingston/rendezbrew.html. I found it a 
     >little
     >stange that almost every winner was from the club that sponsered the
     >contest??  We are not being "poor losers" I just would like to know 
     >if
     >anybody has a way to weed out the not so fair contests and enter the
     >good ones.  Any suggestions or thoughts about results like to ones
     >posted on the Lunar Rendezbrew page would be appreciated.
     
     I am not a seasoned contest winner, but I will respond anyway.  During 
     my many years of lurking on the HBD, I have casually looked at the 
     results of many contests.  I do not find these results unusual.  I 
     think "almost every winner was from the club that sponsored the 
     contest" is a bit of an overstatement.  Here is a tally of the 
     results:
     Bay Area Mashtronauts    - 28 winners
     Foam Rangers             - 14 winners
     Brew Bayou               -  8 winners
     Kuykendahl Gran Brewers  -  2 winners
     Brewed 66 Wort Hogs      -  2 winners
     Winston-Salem Wort Hawgs -  1 winner
     Unaffiliated             -  8 winners
     Total                      63
     There were probably more entries from the sponsoring club than from 
     other clubs and individuals.  Also entries that are not local are at a 
     disadvantage.  During shipping they are exposed to high temperatures 
     and rough handling.  There are just two reasons why the sponsoring 
     club would have more winners.  
     Now, as for suggestions, join a local club.  You can get opinions and 
     feedback about the beer you make from the more experienced members of 
     the club.
     
     Good Luck
     Gary Nazelrod


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Date: 28 Jul 1997 12:22:53 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: Contest Entry

>> Dennis Britten writes:

Dennis> I have a question to all the seasoned contest winners.  We
Dennis> just recently got the results to a contest that we entered by
Dennis> checking http://www.ghgcorp.com/rlivingston/rendezbrew.html. I
Dennis> found it a little stange that almost every winner was from the
Dennis> club that sponsered the contest??  We are not being "poor
Dennis> losers" I just would like to know if anybody has a way to weed
Dennis> out the not so fair contests and enter the good ones.  Any
Dennis> suggestions or thoughts about results like to ones posted on
Dennis> the Lunar Rendezbrew page would be appreciated.

I am not familiar with this contest, but I would be very reluctant to
question their integrity.  I would also go so far as to say that there
are no " not so fair contests".  I have never heard of the integrity
of any competition being questioned, yes, some individual judgings by
an individual judge may have been piss poor and/or way off the mark,
but organizers go to great lengths to keep contests fair and
objective.

What you see as many winners from the sponsoring club probably came
about because of the following.  For a club or association of clubs to
put on a competition, they have to be quite serious.  It is a major
undertaking, and requires lots of dedication and expertise to do it
right.  When a club gets to the point where they can field a
compeition, they most likely have many really good brewers.  And those
brewers, it being their own event, will want to outdo themselves
getting entries ready and will most likely enter lots of categories.
Good brewers entering lots of categories are most likely to take lots
of ribbons.

In our annual competition, at least 1/4 of our 2-300 entries are
usually from our club.  We have many excellent brewers.  We conduct
our competition with the utmost scrupulous care to ensure entry
anonymity and fair judging.  Out of about 80 ribbons awarded, we
almost always manage to take at least 20 of them.

I would like to hear from other people who have participated in
competitions if they have ever heard about the integrity of the
results being in question.  If this phenomena exists, the "competition
community" and the judging community need to be made aware of it.

Check out with the club and see how many entries were from their club
vs. others.  The turnout of other entries may have just be really
poor, thereby giving those who DID enter an advantage, even with
complete impartiality in effect.

dion


QUAFF President

Organizer
America's Finest City Homebrew Competition  March 8, 1997
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html

- ---
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:24:02 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Botulism facts and figures


Yes, I know that many of you are getting sick of this dead horse we keep
flogging,
but given the rude and nasty nature of a recent post of mine, I feel
compelled to
respond to Simon A Wesley's post which contains data on Botulism.

I'm impressed that someone was able to come up with this data so
quickly.  I guess the WWW and the Internet is a mixed blessing in that.
The
danger is, of course, that it makes people look like experts who really
don't know
what they are talking about (apply that to me, if you like).  The flip
side is that if
you want to do some digging, the data is out there.  Somewhere.

With that in mind, I must say it's good to see some figures put on these
things,
to allow us to put it into perspective.  That's sort of what I was
trying to do before,
although it seems that I was armed with some mis-information (see
below).  I
guess my mis-information wasn't really much better than the
no-information that
many people seemed to be propagating.  So much for believing everything
you
read -- even in a book as good as the one I was using.

This would seem to me to be one of those circumstances where I'm forced
to
re-examine my beliefs.  Fortunately, unlike some people (and I'm not
implying
anyone here at all -- I'm just saying this completely in general terms),
I'm usually
eager to discover errs in my beliefs, and just as eager to replace them
with
something a little more factual.  It looks as though my food-processing
bible
may have been over-exaggerating the risk of Botulism, based on the
numbers
dug up by Mr Wesley.  It also appears as though they've misrepresented
the
facts of the early 70's "outbreak".

In any case, I still take it as fact that pressure-canning will reduce
the risk.
I don't think that can really be argued.  Of course, since the risk
already appears
to be so low, I guess we each have to make up our own minds as to
whether or
not it's worth the extra trouble.  One thing I'd like to see is whether
or not there is
an inordinate percentage of those cases who'd consumed home-canned
foods.
Perhaps Mr Wesley can point us to the URL where he dug up the data so
that
we can all have a peek.

Personally, I'll likely continue to pressure-can my wort.  However, I
might not
be quite so vocal when someone claims that boiling-water canning is just
fine.

Once again, I apologize to all of you fine folks.  I've just had one of
my fairly
deep-rooted beliefs shattered, and I'm the first to admit it.

That's all for now.
cheers,
 -Alan McKay


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:48:22 -0700
From: Joe Stone <joestone at cisco.com>
Subject: Cylindriconical Fermenter

I called in a few favors in order to have a 60 degree cone welded onto 
a 10 G Cornelius keg.  A 1" SS male pipe thread fitting was welded to 
the end of the cone.  I opted for a 1" male pipe thread fitting in 
conjunction with a brass ball valve in order to keep the total cost of 
the project under $60.  Now I have a very attractive (electro-polished) 
11 G cylindriconical fermenter and I realize that I'm not exactly sure 
what to do with it.

  I'm hoping that someone with a similar fermenter is willing to share 
his/her fermentation process.

  I probably won't be able to fill the fermenter directly from my 
counter-flow chiller due to the height of the fermenter.  I will 
probably have to chill into a 6.5 G glass carboy and rack into the 
cylindriconical fermenter.  Or invest in another pump.  Fill via the 
bottom drain?

  Blow-off is not a consideration.  I normally brew 5 G batches.

  The liquid-out dip tube is still its original length (it reaches to 
about where the cylinder meets the cone).  I have considered using a 
longer dip tube which would reach closer to the bottom of the cone and 
use CO2 pressure to rack.

  I worry about the amount of trub that will be racked into the keg in 
using the cylindriconical fermenter as a secondary (even after purging 
the trub using the bottom drain).  I don't filter my beer.

  Please CC my E-mail with your response.  Thanks.

Joe

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---