---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Legal brewing of Eisbocks (Oliver Weatherbee)
  Home crystal/dander/chile/hopbugs/gunk (GuyG4)
  Recipe for a friend I owe big time (LINUSNLILA)
  re: Vienna (Charles Burns)
  soda dispencer ("Chris Hansen")
  Canning Wort ("Welsch, John")
  Miller botches it! (Jason Henning)
  Malt storage ("Braam Greyling")
  Re: Blue Moon/Belgian candi/malted milk/Cincy brewfest (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Mead Help Homebrew Digest #2473 (July 30, 1997) (Cat Tambling & Jim Buttitta)
  [Fwd: Poor choice of words/contest entry] (Dennis & Jennifer Britten)
  Mini Kegs... ("Bessette, Bob")
  Dry hopping (haafbrau1)
  Subject: Yeast Starters and Paranoia (Dave Whitman)
  Dirty socks ("David R. Burley")
  The Brewery Web Site Has Moved (The Brewery)
  answers ("Dulisse, Brian K [PRI]")
  Blue Moon Belgian White (MIS, SalemVA)"
  Local Competition stuff (Ken Schramm)
  CO2 supersat'n: I've been converted. ("Dave Draper")
  Lawnmower Wit (dconger)
  Re: David R. Burley's  (and others) Message ("Larry F. Byard")
  At Wit's End -- A Recipe (KennyEddy)
  Porter with no body (John E Carsten)
  Re: Blue Moon (Graham Barron)
  Re: Mead Help (Rory Stenerson)
  Potassium (Mark E. Lubben)
  Botulism (korz)
  Yellowing hop leaves (korz)
  rectangular cooler mash tun design (Llb0909)
  Minneapolis Brew Info Wanted (hbd)
  Yakima hops? (korz)
  Bulkhead Fittings ("Kirk Harralson")
  re:sparge apparatus in ice chest (Charley Burns)
  Bot and the CDC : getting the real story ("Alan McKay")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------




Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:10:16 -0400
From: oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu (Oliver Weatherbee)
Subject: Legal brewing of Eisbocks


In HBD# 2472 Louis Bonham "shouted" about my statements
regarding HOTD Eve. I believe a friend of mine would
have referred to it as "emphatic assertion". I am aware of 
the BATF's legal treatment of the commercial creation of 
Eisbocks. And I am also aware of Louis' legal training
and experience (well, at least what I can infer from 
his postings). Nevertheless, I do question the statement
that I cannot make an Eisbock for personal consumption without 
a permit. And I do mean "question" which is what I did.

I called the local office of the BATF and was directed to
call the regional office in Philadelphia. At which point
the basic questioning of one of their enforcement officers
about homebrewing an Eisbock beer resulted in his statement 
that what I was describing wasn't illegal. He then backtracked 
and said that while the BATF had no problem with my "plans", I 
needed to check with my state ABCC.

Well, according to DE law, the process of making an Eisbock
or a beer like Eve does not fall under the definition of
distillation. So it would seem, even without a permit, 
it is legal for me (according to the BATF and DE) to make an
Eisbock or Eve-style beer for my own and/or my guests' 
personal consumption under the existing homebrewing
regulations. I suggest people make their own inquiries
before being scared away from this great style of beer.

BTW, back in 1995, there was a real good article on homebrewing
Eisbocks in Zymurgy which included a few recipes.

Oliver Weatherbee
http://triton.cms.udel.edu/~oliver/firststate/


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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:04:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: GuyG4 at aol.com
Subject: Home crystal/dander/chile/hopbugs/gunk

Kennyeddy presents a wonderful treatise on home crystal malt, yet wonders
about fermentable yield. Kenny, how about a test mash?  That's how I figured
out about how much my home malted grain would yield...I mashed a measured
amount in a measured amount of water, measuring gravity at the start, and the
end of fermentation.  Scale down to a pint, you can mash in a saucepan,
sparge in a colander, ferment in a quart jar, and a packet of dry yeast will
ferment the stuff mighty fast! By the way, I'm gonna try your method with
this year's barley crop.

Kate Cone asks if animal dander ever bothered anyone.  I don't worry...I keep
my critters out of my brewpot and keep my fermenters sealed, and I sanitize
everything before it touches beer..pretty standard sanitation technique.
 I've got a golden retriever, 2 cats, and my mother in laws sheltie here most
of the time.

Brian Thumm asks about chile beer, recommending bottling with a chile in the
bottle, ala that commercial brew.  I brew a fairly standard pale ale,
sometimes with rye, and dryhop for 5 days 5 unpeeled anaheims in it in the
fall. Good chile flavor (no aroma hops) in beer a lot of people seem to like.
 It has converted several individuals to homebrewing.  The commercial kind of
chile beer is a bit much for my taste...but whatever you like, do.

Question: My hop plants got infested by very small white bugs, look sorta
like aphids only small...they cause a leaf curl.  Any guesses what they are
and how I can kill them?

Another: My kegs sometimes sit for a while, and then when they are tapped
some solid gunk comes out.  I presume this is yeast and other solids, but
after my neighbor went berserk and went back to drinking Keystone..(no beer
in a clear glass for her again!!! The rest of us continued to drink this ale)
I got to wonder..IMBR?  I'd notice an infection by taste first, right? Is my
neighbor reactionary?  I think yes.

One last....why does it seem like all brew competitions are in the lousiest
brewing time of the year??

Cheers,


Guy Gregory
GuyG4 at aol.com
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
Spokane, WA


 


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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:15:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: LINUSNLILA at aol.com
Subject: Recipe for a friend I owe big time

I recently promised a friend of mine that I would brew him a batch of
whatever type beer he wanted, in return for him dog-sitting my hyperactive
Lab for a long weekend.  Well, of course his favorite beer is one I have
never heard of, and he is not beer-literate enough to be able to describe it
very well.  He says it is a German beer called "Einlanger Ereweiss" (I don't
know how to spell it, I am probably mangling it)  and that it was a dark
wheat beer, bottle conditioned I am guessing from the amount of sediment he
describes.  I immediately thought "Dunkleweizen", but I got him to try one I
had brewed, using Special B to darken a normal hefeweizen, and he said it
wasn't even close.  Has anyone ever heard of this beer, or have any
suggestions?  My meager reputation as a homebrewer is at stake!

Thanks

Linus Hall
Nashville, TN


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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 18:56 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re: Vienna

Braam asked about a vienna recipe in hbd #2468.
Here's my latest Vienna brew for what its worth. My water is hard (170ppm)
so the calcium I added probably wasn't needed and I won't use it next time.
====================================================
SUDS Recipe Report
Deer Valley Vienna

   Category         :  Vienna                   
   Method           :  Full Mash - Single Decoction
   Starting Gravity :  1.058
   Ending Gravity   :  1.010
   Recipe Makes     :  5.0 gallons
   Total Grain      : 12.50 lbs.
   Efficiency       :  69%
   Hop IBUs         : 29.7

Malts/Sugars:
  0.75	lb.	Vienna                   
  0.75	lb.	Wheat                    
  4.00	lb.	Munich Light             
  5.00	lb.	Belgian Pilsener         
  2.00	lb.	Cara-Vienne              

Hops:
 1.00	oz.	Saaz           	 2.0%	 2 min
 0.50	oz.	Hallatauer     	 4.3%	15 min
 0.50	oz.	Hallatauer     	 4.3%	60 min
 0.25	oz.	N. Brewer      	 7.2%	60 min
 0.25	oz.	N. Brewer      	 8.1%	60 min


Notes:
1. Rest Pilsener at 130F for 15 minutes (5 quarts  at  145F w 1/2 tsp CaCL3)
2. Add other malts and 13 quarts of 165F water to bring entire mash to 145F
and add another teaspoon of CaCL3.
3. Immediately pull 1/3 decoction (mix thin/thick - pull with cup, not strainer)
4. Bring decoct to 158F, rest for 15 minutes.
5. Boil Deocoction for 15 minutes.
6. Return to main mash at 158-160F for 1 hour.

Sparge with 6 gallons  at  180F and boil 90 minutes.

Wyeast 2112 - California Common  at  65F for 14 Days.
Secondary at 38F for 2 months. Force Carbonate.

I used Dos Equis as the model for this brew and it came pretty close. I did
have a problem with the decoction, it got up to 165F (got away from me) and
so the brew doesn't have the heavy malty taste I wanted which puts the bittering
a little out of balance. The mash was a bit thin and I'd cut back on the water
some on step 2 above, probably back to 11 quarts.

Color is right on. Fantastic Head retention. Delicious.

Charley

Charley


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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:10:10 +0000
From: "Chris Hansen" <hansen3 at pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Subject: soda dispencer

I have the opportunity to pick up a 4 tap soda dispenser real 
reasonable.  My questions are (1) Is this setup usable for beer and 
is anybody using it, what are the disadvantages or advantages. (2) 
Does the keg still need to be cooled (maybe for preservation) or will 
the dispenser cool down the beer as it is drawn,  like the soda it 
use to serve. And (3) How would I clean this thing to remove all 
traces af soda???


TIA
Chris Hansen

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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 20:00:00 PDT
From: "Welsch, John" <A069067 at MDCPO102.HB.MDC.COM>
Subject: Canning Wort


There is a wealth of info from the USDA available at:
http://www.hoptechno.com/book30.htm

John Welsch
Strand Brewers
Redondo Beach, CA

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:47:09 -0700
From: Jason Henning <huskers at cco.net>
Subject: Miller botches it!

Anyone remember Steve Claussen's post "Dave Miller weighs in on
botulism" in HBD2448? It was an exerpt from Miller's Q&A column in BT.
It's now died from a fatal dose of botulism panic. Evidently this toxin
has swept the country in convincing fashion. Although the botulism panic
toxin has been found in several cities, it is believe the toxin that
left Miller for dead comes from Cook county Illinois. Everyone is
advised to spout opinion as fact for next 100 Digests.

Cheers,
Jason Henning <huskers cco net>
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Olympia, Washington - "It's the water"

"Sure its gonna kill ya, but who wants to live forever" - Daniel
Goodale, Biohazard Brewing Company


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:34:11 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.co.za>
Subject: Malt storage

Hi,

I have imported a lot of malts from Germany. As I am a small scale 
brewer this malt will have to last a long time.
I dont have enough air-tight containers for all the malts.
Should I store the malts that will have to last 
long (like Crystal) in the airtight container or should I leave it in 
the double lining PVC bags.
The malts that will be used regularly like my Vienna Brewmalt should 
I rather leave them in the bags ?
What would be best?
The bags is almost air-tight. Only the seams have space where air can 
flow through.
How long will I be able to keep the uncrushed malts ?

TIA
Braam Greyling    I.C. Design Engineer
Azona(Pty)Ltd     
tel +27 12 6641910  fax +27 12 6641393

You can taste a good beer with one sip, 
but it is better to make thoroughly sure.

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:43:58 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Blue Moon/Belgian candi/malted milk/Cincy brewfest 

Well, I've tasted and brewed a bunch of Wit beers.  I had one bottle
of Blue Moon "White" recently, and I thought it was pretty well on
style.  Definately at the light, soft end of the range, but still in
style.

Just my opinion.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:52:33 GMT
From: mugwert at ime.net (Cat Tambling & Jim Buttitta)
Subject: Re: Mead Help Homebrew Digest #2473 (July 30, 1997) 

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:09:24 -0400, Shaun wrote:


>I am intersted in brewing a mead (melomel) and am looking for guidance =
from=3D
> any mead-heads out there   I have some specific questions:
>
>1  Acid Nutrient -- Why?

I'm supposing you mean acid blend - this is added as a flavor enhancer
not a nutrient.  I balances out the cloying sweetness from honey.  How
much to use depends on the type of mead you're making - a traditional
mead would need more than most melomels.  Melomels made with acidic
fruits may not need any.   Whether the mead is dry or sweet also plays
a part.  I usually add it after fermentation and depend on tasting to
determine the amount.  You can buy a kit to measure titratable acidity
and determine the amount to add that way.  BTW, titratable acidity is
not the same as pH

>2  Do I need a yeast starter?  If so and I make it with honey, is it =
going to
>take longer to get going than my malt starters?

If you do use liquid yeast make a starter. There simply isn't enough
yeast in a smack pack to get the fermentation going as quickly as I
like.   If you use honey add some yeast nutrient especially if you are
using WYeast sweet mead yeast.  Honey doesn't contain all the
nutrients needed by the yeast. You can use light malt extract.  I
don't think you will notice the taste, especially in a melomel.

But why make a starter at all?  Consider using dry yeast.  Some of my
best meads have been made using Lavlin KV1116

> Yeast nutrient?  Does this make fermentation complete or just faster?
>  Do I need it?

Again it depends.  With melomels, the fruit can add nutrients lacking
in honey.  Overuse  of yeast nutrients will result in off flavors that
however will eventually age out.  If you're following a recipe don't
think if a little nutrient is good, more is better.  Wyeast sweet mead
yeast will definitely require adding nutrient.

Wassail!

Jim
mugwert at ime.net


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:52:23 +0000
From: Dennis & Jennifer Britten <djbnjake at iserv.net>
Subject: [Fwd: Poor choice of words/contest entry]

Message-ID: <33DEEF5F.343 at iserv.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:38:07 +0000
From: Dennis & Jennifer Britten <djbnjake at iserv.net>
Reply-To: djbnjake at iserv.net
Organization: Britten & Smith Brewery
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: homebrew at hdb.org
Subject: Poor choice of words/contest entry
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks to all that have responded to the original post.  After reading
the follow-ups I realize that my choice of words was poor.  I apologize
to anyone that feels I have questioned the integrity of the Lunar
Rendezbrew, including the judges and sponsers.  With that said and done
let me re-phrase the intent of my original post:  Which are the bigger
contest throughout the year with more outside entries?  I kept asking my
husband (Dennis) why he did'nt enter more contest and he said he did'nt
have time, so I took over that job. Last night when he checked out the
HBD he saw his name with alot of not so happy posts.  "Why did you have
to put my name up there too?" was his question. Oops, sorry to him too.
Next time I P.O. everyone I'll just use my name.  

Sorry again!

Jennifer Britten.


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 08:03:00 PDT
From: "Bessette, Bob" <bob.bessette at lamrc.com>
Subject: Mini Kegs...


Fellow Brewers,
 >>Has anyone had experience with the 'mini kegs'?  I am interested in
>>buying 4 of them, but want to hear from someone who has used them.

I have a lot of experience with mini-kegs and I am through with them.  I was 
fairly pleased with them at first but I learned that they are not a 
long-term solution to storing and dispensing beer.  At least they weren't 
for me.  The first real problem I ran into was the fact that the taps leaked 
CO2.  I had to bring my taps back to the store on more than one occasion. 
 Also a major pain was trying to clean the mini-kegs.  More often than not 
you are going to leave some water in the kegs after cleaning.  I have had my 
share of rust in the kegs which probably means that the plastic lining was 
torn or cracked.  I actually tried a batch that I had sitting in the frig 
for about 2 months and the beer reaked of rust.  After taking a swig of that 
I have no intention of ever returning to the mini-keg system.  I am back to 
bottling for the time being and plan on moving on to Corny kegs once my 
budget can afford it.  For the time being bottling is very portable and I 
can clean the bottles very easily.  I can also see inside the bottles to 
make sure they are clean which was difficult with the mini-keg system.  My 
suggestion is not to make the investment in the mini-kegs and stick with 
bottling or hold out until you can afford a Corny keg system.  Believe me, 
it will save you a lot of aggravation...

Cheers,
Bob Bessette


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:10:58 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: Dry hopping

When dry hopping, do you use whole hops, pellets,or either?  If you use
pellets, should you crush them first?  Private e-mail is OK.  TIA

The only good homebrew is a consumed homebrew
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:21:17
From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: Subject: Yeast Starters and Paranoia

In HBD2473, Rob Kienle says:

>What happened was that when I opened the wort starter to add
>the yeast, I noticed a fairly pronounced scent coming from it that was
>probably more "dirty socklike" than anything else.
>
>Thinking, geez, that ain't so cool, I scored another starter vial from
>the fridge and re-innoculated. This second vial smelled better than the
>first, so I let it go. (It still didn't smell delightful, but it didn't
>smell nearly as bad.)
>
>All of this concerned me because the only problems I've had with YCKC's
>products before seem to surround the first, 35 mL step-up. On a couple
>of occasions, I've started the vial, only to notice *no* apparent
>fermentation within it even within a couple of days. At one point, I
>decided to disregard my lack of evidence of fermentation and just racked
>the stuff into my normal 22 oz starter to see what happened and -
>somewhat amazingly, I had a nice krausen going in the subsequent step a
>day later, even without having had any evidence that such would occur in
>the original vial.

I've never used the YCKC starters and can't comment about quality or aroma,
but I don't think lack of obvious fermentation on small wort samples is
anything to worry about.  I rarely see obvious bubbling or foam on my 4 ml
and 40ml step up stages using my home-made starters (which smell great
<grin>).

The amount of offgassing you can expect is probably proportional to the
volume of wort in the sample.  I usually see bubble rates in the 1-100
bubbles/minute on active 5 gallon fermentations.  35 ml is about 1/500th
the size of a 5 gallon batch, so one might naively expect bubbling in the
range 0.002-0.2 bubbles per minute.

It's worse than that.  Bubbling only occurs when diffusion is too slow to
remove the CO2 being formed.  Diffusion out of the wort will be roughly
proportional to the ratio of surface area of the wort relative to its
volume.  Smaller samples have a higher surface area to volume ratio, so
diffusion processes do a better job of "bubbleless" removal of CO2, further
reducing the expected bubbling rate.

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:06:11 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Dirty socks

Brewsters:

Ahh yes, dirty socks and sauerkraut - those wonderful lactobacillus aroma=
s.

Rob Kleinle is wwwworried about getting botulism from his yeast slants. =

Don't worry about that Clostridium only thrive in anaerobic environments,=

which I presume your yeast slants are not.

As you guessed, chances are good you had a terrific fermentation and the
"mystery" yeast finished before you saw it.

You should try storing your yeast under sterile water, rather than on
slants.  This will reduce the chance of bacterial contamination
substantially.
- ----------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:07:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Brewery <brewery at realbeer.com>
Subject: The Brewery Web Site Has Moved

Many of you know this already, but The Brewery website has moved. The new
URL is:

        	        http://brewery.org/

All files should be in place, the content remains the same (some updates
should be done when we get caught up and have spare time again), but there
may be the odd link here or there that does not function.  If this
happens, please email: 

	                brewery at realbeer.com

There were many reasons behind the move, but suffice it to say that The
Brewery had to move, and it was after a long, careful consideration before
a decision was made.

Please do not use the digest for long heated discussions as to why the
move and why we moved to the realbeer.com server.  I am willing to take on
all discussions of this nature at the above email address.

Karl Lutzen


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:02:00 -0400
From: "Dulisse, Brian K [PRI]" <BDulisse at prius.jnj.com>
Subject: answers

i have gotten some answers to the questions i asked yesterday, namely

1) 	is refrigeration cold enough to inhibit bot toxin production, and 

2) 	is the amount of sugar in a starter wort sufficient to inhibit 
toxin production

wrt temperature, my wife (a former cdc botulism babe) told me last 
night that both cdc and fda consider refrigeration to provide a 
"barrier temperature".  in other words, cdc and fda believe that bot 
toxin production is inhibited by refrigeration.

wrt sugar, jason henning kindly forwarded some info he had received 
from al k, which essentially said that a specific gravity of 1.004 is 
approximately 1 plato, which is defined as 1 gram sucrose in 99 grams 
of h20.  thus 1.040 wort would approximately have a water activity of 
 .94, which according to the passage from houschild and dodds 
(clostridium botulinum . . .) read to me over the phone yesterday was 
a level at which bot toxin did not form.

it seems to me that both of these answers, particularly the 
temperature one, support the idea that canned wort stored in the 
refrigerator is a safe medium for use as starter wort.  if you don't 
feel comfortable with 3rd or 4th hand information on this (which is 
entirely reasonable), call up fda, work your way to the bot section, 
and ask about temperature and water activity.

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:17:35 -0400
From: "Moyer, Douglas E (MIS, SalemVA)"
Subject: Blue Moon Belgian White

My dear collective,
	Many of you have been quite negative concerning our little
Coors's subsidiary. Allow me to share my experience. In my business
travels (all over the Far East) and my personal travels (all over the
Caribbean) I have tasted all the beers that I could find. The choices
were almost exclusively pilsners and strong stouts. The beers imported
from Europe that were available in the backwoods of Missouri & Virginia
were usually skunky pilsners. In 95, I was lucky enough to spend 10
weeks in Portland, Oregon. Wow! What a difference. A whole new world of
beer opened up to me. Unfortunately, I had to subsequently go back to
southwest Virginia. So, when a friend picked up a six of Blue Moon Nut
Brown ale, I was excited to have something different available locally
(versus Sam Adams, which was the most unusual thing before then.) Then I
found their Belgian White at the local Kroger. Well, Blue Moon was
dropped about a year ago, but it pushed me to explore Belgian ales
whenever possible. I've had a string of wits, tripels, lambics, browns
that I've absolutely loved. I'm not going to argue that Blue Moon is
close to style (I really can't remember how it tasted by the time I
tried Hoegaarden, et. al.) but I have to say that I enjoyed it
thoroughly when it was available. It pointed me in a direction in which
I'm happy to travel. (Of course, my wife is probably not as excited
about me spending $11 for a bottle of Chimay Grande Reserve during
dinner Friday, but...) I currently have a nice pwit on tap at home that
I'm enjoying nightly!
	Sorry for the bw. But I have to applaud the big guys for even
trodding that ground. 

Doug Moyer
Big Lick Brewing Collective
"Big Lick--growing to meet your needs."



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:54:17 -0400
From: Ken Schramm <SchramK at wcresa.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Local Competition stuff

I, too, had been very skeptical about the local domination of
competitions, but Pat Babcock's comment about lack of shipping abuse
is a profound truth, abd I also believe that the lack of shipping
cost and inconvenience makes the likelihood of many local entries far
greater.

Local beer is better on a commercial level (go to Belgium and have a
mind-blowing experience if you doubt this).  It just stands to reason
that the same would be true for competitions.

Schramm

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:02:10 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: CO2 supersat'n: I've been converted.

Dear Friends,

After some fairly extensive offline discussions (mostly with Andy
Walsh, thanks Andy) I have changed my somewhat stridently expressed
views about the likelihood of CO2 oversaturation.  I have been
convinced by several lines of evidence (all of which have seen
exposure in these pages in the past few weeks so I won't recount them
again) that vigorous primary fermentation is not a situation where
the system is at equilibrium, so that other kinetic and dynamic
effects are the ones that really matter on this question. My
position before was based solely on the (mistaken, I now believe)
view that equilibrium prevailed.  So, I do accept that CO2
supersaturation can occur during fermentation.  Of course, it does
not matter at all what I think, but because I had been quite
vociferous in making my point I thought I should post now. I'm 
grateful to all the correspondents, online and off, whose reasoning 
led me through this topic.

Cheers,

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
I can't be bought for a mere $3.50. ---Jeff Renner


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:01:19 -0400
From: dconger at roadshow.com
Subject:   Lawnmower Wit

TO: homebrew at hbd.org


(Disclaimer:  The following comments are intended to be lighthearted and   
humorous.)

I feel I must comment on the all the slamming of Coors' Blue Moon Wit.   
 If I'm having a few slices of greasy Pizza Hut pan pizza, do I want a   
Hoegaarden or a Blue Moon?  A Blue Moon, of course.  I'll save the   
Hoegaarden for a time when I can appreciate the extraordinary complexity   
of its flavor.  The Blue Moon Wit is better suited to wash down some junk   
food.  Blue Moon:  The finest lawn mower wit I know.

David C.

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:54:29 -0400
From: "Larry F. Byard" <lbyard at gwi.net>
Subject: Re: David R. Burley's  (and others) Message

Notice those equal (=) signs at the end of lines in various messages
received here and there.  Here's how to fix the problem for Windows 95...

Click Start
Click Settings
Click Control Panel
Double Click the Mail and FAX Icon
Under the Services Tab, select Internet Mail
Click Properties
Click Message format
Select USA ASCII
Click OK
Uncheck Use MIME
Click OK

The cause of the problem...  the MIME format uses characters
that are not included in the USA ASCII character set.  The equal sign
is used to represent one of those characters.

This ain't beer, but I thought some of you would find it useful.  Larry


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:05:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: At Wit's End -- A Recipe

The Blue-Moon-Cloning therad has again arisen, with the usual "try Hoegaarden
or Celis" responses.  Well, I'll see them responses and raise you a recipe.
  An extract recipe at that.

Belgian Wit is a lovely, unique style (and I don't even LIKE Belgian beers)
that paradoxically is also one of the easiest to make "right", since its
makeup is practically cast in concrete:  50% barley, 45% raw wheat, 5% oats,
OG mid to upper 40's, noble hops (e.g., Saaz) to around 20 IBU, some
late-hopping, notes of bitter orange peel and coriander, tart, dry, slightly
phenolic finish.

For extract brewers, you could forego the oats and use 50% wheat malt extract
and 50% regular barley malt extract.  In fact, you might be able to find a
"weizen" extract that comes close to 50% barley & 50% wheat, though the 100%
wheat extract should be easy enough to find.

Please DON'T try to steep oats as it will only add starch to your wort.
 You're better off just leaving it out.

Bitter orange peel is often perceived to be hard to get, but ask your HB
supplier to special-order it for you, or check any of the mail-order outfits.
 I recently ordered some from Sunset Suds (sunsetsuds at aol.com, catalog
on-line at http://members.aol.com/SunsetSuds/Index.htm, no affiliation etc).
 I've heard tell that regular sweet orange peel works, but get the real stuff
unless you're in a big hurry.  You can probably find coriander on your own
spice rack.

Hoe Your Own Gaarden Wit

3.3 lb unhopped pilsner malt extract syrup
3.3 lb unhopped wheat malt extract syrup
1.5 oz 3.5% Saaz 60 min
1.0 oz 3.5% Saaz 20 min
1 ounce dried bitter (Curacao) orange peel 10 min
1 tblsp whole corainder, crushed, 10 min
Wyeast 3944 Belgian Witbier yeast or Hoegaarden sediment
Ferment at 65F

Some will suggest putting the spices in the fermenter; that's fine but in my
experience they come through just fine in the boil and it's much simpler that
way.  Also, I found the Wyeast to take over three weeks to finish, so be
patient.  Because of the phenolic overtones of this yeast, be sure to control
your fermentation temperature to avoid band-aid beer.  Instead of using the
Wyeast product, pour the beer off the sediment in a bottle of Hoegaarden,
then swirl & dump the sediment into your starter wort.  Finally, some brewers
like to add some lactic acid to the final product to sharpen the tart, dry
finish; that's fine but not really necessary for a pleasant brew.  Go slow
and taste as you go -- probably just a few ml of 88% lactic acid would do it.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: 30 Jul 1997 10:13:57 -0500
From: John E Carsten <John.E.Carsten at oklaosf.state.ok.us>
Subject: Porter with no body

Recently made a porter.  One week primary, 2 weeks secondary (temps in the brew
room were higher than desired (70-75F).  OG, 1.065. FG 1.012 (nothing wrong 
there)
The problem is, the beer seems kind of "hollow".  It's been forced carbonated 
and in the
fridge for a little more than a week now.  But the flavor and body just aren't 
there.  I had similar
problems with a Belgian Wit earlier this year.  Several weeks of cold 
conditioning in the keg has
turned the flavor into something I am please with.  But I began with the same 
problem I now have
with this porter.  It just seems devoid of real beer flavor right now.

I'm hoping for it to undergo the same type of transformation the Belgian Wit 
did.  But it's a pain waiting,
since I'm running out of beer and don't have near as much time to brew as I 
used to.  Anyhow, here's
the grain bill and mash schedule.  Any assistance or advice is welcome.  Sorry 
for the waste of bandwidth.
Private e-mail preferred.

 8 pounds, Klages 2-row malt; 1 pound, Munich malt; 1/2 pound, crystal malt 
(90L); 
1/2 pound, chocolate malt; 1/2 pound, wheat; 1/2 pound, roasted barley; 1/2 
ounce,
Northern Brewer hops (boil); 1/2 ounce, Cascade hops (boil); 1/2 ounce, Cascade
hops (finish); 1 teaspoon, gypsum; 1/2 teaspoon, Irish moss; YeastLab American 
Ale

125F for 20 min; 142F for 30 min; 158F for 45 min; 168F for 10 min

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:20:15 -0500
From: Graham Barron <gbarron at cq.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Moon

Ok, I certainly don't want to keep this discussion alive too long, but one
more comment on Blue Moon/Coors and white beer:

Michael Fay (faymi at earlham.edu) wrote:

>   Truly I agree, to each his own.  But it seems unfortunate that anyone
>actually believes Coors when they say that their blue moon is a Wit. And I
>did not know that it won any sort of award.  What kind of joke is this?
>Admittedly, I've only tried it 2 or 3 times, but the dominant aroma I got
>from it was
>blueberry!! the artificial kind at that. I'd recommend to anyone who praises
>Blue Moon's "Wit"  Splurge a little and buy some Hoegaarden or Celis and then
>see what you think of the Coors stuff.

Truly.  Once my wife, with all the best intentions, "surprised" me by
bringing home a six pack of Blue Moon White from the grocery once.  That
was the first time I had it, so I gave it a try and, well, you guys know
what I thought of it already.  I finished the six pack, though.  It was
certainly not bad enough to be put down the drain or anything.

Anyway, regarding the award it received.  Apparently, it won the Gold Medal
(if you can believe that) in the "World Beer Championships" in the White
beer category in 1995.  That "competition" is the thing run by the Beverage
Tasting Institute.  Coors regularly touts that award in it's advertising
material about the beer.  You can find the results of the contest in issues
of All About Beer magazine, I think.  I have always found their awards and
judgements to be quite arguable and suspect.  I mean, this Coors stuff beat
out all the classics in the category.  It was a blind tasting based purely
on this strange "enjoyment" scale that the tasters use.

Well, enough of this.  Back to homebrew.



Graham L. Barron
New Media
Congressional Quarterly
Washington, D.C.
(202) 887-8684

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:45:24 -0400
From: Rory Stenerson <71762.1664 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Mead Help

Shuan Funk asked some questions regarding Mead.

I'm sure by the time I post this several others will have chimed in with
very good advice and answers to your questions.  Here's one bit of advice=

you didn't ask for,

Use honey from a local beekeeper.  He/she can help you select the flavor
you may wish to use and his/her honey will most likely be less processed
than the over mixed, over filtered, aged stuff you will probably find in
your local supermarket.

Here is the address of a couple local beekeeper associations in your area=
,
which may be a good place to start.

Davie County Beekeepers Association
William Phelps,
666 Pine Ridge Rd.,
Mocksville, NC 27028

Forsyth County Beekeepers Association
M. Weatherman,
5395 Spainhour Mill Rd.
Tobaccoville, NC 27050

Wish you joy of your Mead endeavours,

Rory Stenerson,
V.P. - State College Underground Maltsters, S.C.U.M.
Member - Centre County Beekeepers Association
State College, PA USA
71762.1664 at compuserve.com

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:00:52 -0400
From: mel at genrad.com (Mark E. Lubben)
Subject: Potassium


My small town in northern Massachusetts is in a water crisis since they
noticed the well in my half of town had dropped from normal 20 feet in the
bore to 6 INCHS!  An article about it got me curious about water chemistry 
again.  Our rain in New England is usually acidic (mostly carbonic & nitric)
and the granite soils don't neutralize it well.  A few years back the
town installed a big neutralizing setup which stopped my tub and toilet
from turning turquoise from dissolved copper.  I was under the impression
at the time they were using sodium hydroxide to 7PH.  The recent newspaper
article said they use POTASSIUM hydroxide.  From what I can find in the 
few brew references which mention potassium they say it can taste salty
in high concentrations like sodium but they don't give quantitative details.

I know my beer isn't ruined since I can make a decent all-grain pilsner.  
Any one have any quantitative thresholds for mash, yeast, or taste effects 
from potassium?  Most water reports on HBD don't seem to include it.

I will sure be glad when the umpty PPM of chlorine is dropped back to
our normal "spring water like" levels so I can drink it again.
Right now I think I could sanitize my equipment without bleach!


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:21:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Botulism

Sorry, but I've been away at AHA Conference and then I had a class for
a week, so I'm really behind in my reading.

Jeff makes a few rash assumptions and then writes:

>I think we are safe using canned wort for starters.

I feel compelled to comment because there is a lot of conflicting
information out there.  Both Papazian and Miller have said it's
okay to can wort without pressure-cooking.  Many posters, such as
Jeff, use the argument that if someone died from it, we would
have heard about it by now.

The odds are very slim, but non-zero, that you will die from botulism
from using canned wort that has not been pressure-cooked.  Even if
the chances are one in a billion, the consequences are bad enough
that I don't want to take that risk.  I encourage others to do as I
do, err on the side of safety, and either make up starter wort on
an as-needed basis, or get a pressure-cooker.  Finally, I would urge
everyone to stop *speculating* about the safety of wort canned using
an open-kettle boil.  Please!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:32:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Yellowing hop leaves

Bradley writes:
>        So what did I do?  First I added epsom salts, because someone wrote 
>me that tomatoes have exactly the same appearance [yellowing leaves,
>betwen the veins, then browning and falling off] when low in magnesium.  
>Unfortunately, this did nothing.

Ahh... but it did.  It will not reverse the process (at least not in a
short period of time), but will prevent further loss.  I had the same
problem on my hops (when I used to take care of them) and just this
week with my tomatoes and cucumbers.  A teaspoon of Epsom Salts per
plant is the cure.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:41:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Llb0909 at aol.com
Subject: rectangular cooler mash tun design

I received a number of requests for my design of a rectangular cooler mash
tun. The file turned out to be large so I didn't want to post it here. if
anyone else would like a copy, I would be happy to send them one or if I get
many I will post it. It includes some really lame pictures I made with dashes
and overbars. CAD drawings would be too much like work.

My e-mail address will change back to barrowman at aol.com after August 1. By
setting that address up as a child's account for a couple of weeks I got the
perverts who were sending me the porn into lots of trouble with AOL. I think
I got porn because I have 'man' in address or it was someone's idea of a
joke. SPAM sucks!

Laura
Charlotte  NC

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:17:59 -0500
From: hbd at brew.oeonline.com
Subject: Minneapolis Brew Info Wanted



I'm planning a trip to Minneapolis next weekend, and I checked the=
 BrewPub listings on the web.  But that's all I have, just a listing. =
 I'd appreciate if anyone can offer some first-hand info on good=
 times, food and drink in the metro area.  Also, if any of the micros=
 have lounges, bars, etc. and are worth a stop, I'd like to hear about=
 them as well.

Thanks for the bandwidth (no apologies for wasting it, I really=
 appreciate this information!).

Brew on, fellow barley chefs!
Mike


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:56:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Yakima hops?

Jeff writes:
>Bridgeport Brewing's home page lists Yakima as one of the hop varieties
>used in their IPA.  I can't seem to find any info on this hop.  Any help?
>Any good substitutes?  Is Yakima Magnum the same thing?

Maybe... Yakima is a town, a valley, a ridge, and a river.  Saying you
use Yakima hops is like saying you use Washington-state hops, but a little
more specific.  They grow everything from Magnum to Cascades in Yakima
valley.  Magnum is a high-alpha hop originally bred in Germany.  You'll
have to ask someone at Bridgeport to be more specific on their hop variety.

>And what is a good substitute for Ultra?

Ultra was bred to be similar to Hallertauer, but has some Saaz in it's
heritage, and has (to my senses) a *lot* of that Saaz spicyness.  I
would used Crystal (another Hallertauer relative that is very spicy)
or Saaz as a substitute.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 15:31:14 -0500
From: "Kirk Harralson"<kwh at smtpgwy.roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Bulkhead Fittings


I'm just beginning the process of converting some kegs to brewing 
vessels and would prefer to use bulkhead fittings for the drains 
rather than having anything welded in.  The only information I have 
found on the web so far suggested using rubber washers against both 
the interior and exterior sides of the keg, with SS washers and nuts 
forming a water-tight seal.  I'm sure this would work, but I can't 
imagine using rubber washers without affecting the taste of the wort.  
I also don't know if rubber will withstand boiling temperatures.  I 
went to a few home centers and one plumbing supply store and asked for 
teflon washers, and they looked at me like I was crazy.  According to 
one plumbing "specialist", he had never seen anything like that in the 
plumbing industry.  So, what are my options for this?

Kirk Harralson
Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:47:26 -0700
From: Charley Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re:sparge apparatus in ice chest

Steve Jackson asks about sparging apparatus in a rectangular cooler:

I created a setup very similar to yours about a year ago. Actually five
of us did this at one time in a friends back yard. For the sparger, we
took a few feet (nice and specific isn't it) of 1/4" tubing left over
from an icemaker installation. Shaped the tubing into a figure 8 with
one end crimped shut and the other end bent up at a 90 degree angle and
pushed through a small hole we drilled in the top of the cooler.  The
figure 8 lies flat against the inside of the lid of the cooler. We
drilled 1/32" holes every couple of inches along the length of the tube
so that the water would sprinkle evenly across the grain bed. I have 
bucket of hot water with a plastic spigot installed. I connect the
spigot to the copper tube that comes up through the lid and just open up
the spigot. The manifold under the grain bed goes out through the normal
cooler drain with a hosebarb on it and drains right into the kettle.

No reasons to mess with copper T's (expensive) just get a few feet of
tubing. I think it was about 6 ft. Total cost of all materials including
the cooler was about $40. I used an old cooler I already had and my cost
ended up about $20. Efficiency isn't great but I really don't care, the
beer's good.

Charley

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:30:53 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: Bot and the CDC : getting the real story


Brian Dulisse writes :

"for the record, the first reaction of everyone in this little chain 
(including the people my friend talked with) is wondering why this 
would be a concern, since none of the cdc folks had ever heard of a 
wort-related bot outbreak.  that doesn't mean it couldn't happen, of 
course, but among people with an institutional memory approaching 20 
years, no one is aware of it happening . . . let me be clear: i am not 
claiming that the concerns about botulism are foolish and should be 
ignored.  i am not saying that pressure canning is unnecessary.  what 
i am saying is that it is *possible* that the characteristics of wort 
and/or the conditions under which it is stored *may* be such that 
pressure canning is not needed."

Well, Brian, I must admit that you've done the best job to date of
bringing some extremely useful information to this discussion.
Yes, the key question is whether or not wort in and of itself can
inhibit Bot spore germination.  As you stated, we eat them every
day, but the acid in our stomachs denatures them before they can
be of harm.

With any luck, one of your buddies at the CDC just might be able
to eventually give us something conclusive on this issue.

Thanks for the info.

 -Alan




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---