---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  YCKC and small volume starters ("Alan McKay")
  RIMS Idea / Question (Darrell)
  MI state fair forms (Spencer W Thomas)
  General recommendations on mini-batches? ("Richard Cuff")
  false bottoms (bers)
  Next Quantum leap ("Michael Kowalczyk")
  Labels ("Christopher D. Hutton")
  Finally, a silly botulism question ("Michael Baum")
  PEnlightment PMe (Jim Thomas)
  Botulism Thread ("Ian Wilson")
  Soda Taps (Fred Waltman)
  re: Legal brewing of Eisbocks (Jeff)
  A little more on Blue Moon (Graham Barron)
  Special Old Ale - Barleywine Style? (Charles Burns)
  Re: At Wit's End -- Another Recipe (Spencer W Thomas)
  re:Porter with no body (Charles Burns)
  Bodyless Porter, V. wilt on hops ("David R. Burley")
  thermometers ("Ray Robert")
  Crystal and Chocolate Malt -- DO Try This at Home! (KennyEddy)
  botu-f$%$%^$^ing-ism (Doug Otto)
  BATF and Eisbocks (John Wilkinson)
  Negro Modelo (MCI)" <Todd.W.Wilson at mci.com>
  Re: Home crystal/dander/chile/hop bugs/gunk (guym)
  aerator (Eric  Tepe)
  RE: Minneapolis Brew Info Wanted (Mike.Beatty)
  Malta & botulism (korz)
  1 in a billion (Paul Niebergall)
  1 ina billion - again (Paul Niebergall)
  Re: Bulkhead Fittings (Darrell)
  Lambic BOS (korz)
  Follow-up; Porter with no body (John E Carsten)
  Grant's Imperial Stout; eisbock. etc. (SClaus4688)


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:23:16 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: YCKC and small volume starters



Rob Keinle writes :
"The only conclusion I've managed to make in the past is that the starter
vial managed to ferment through very quickly, perhaps while I was at
work, and thus I never noticed the krausen."

In my own experience, I've had even 500ml of wort starter ferment out
completely
while out for an afternoon in the Market.  I've regularly had 100ml of wort
ferment
out completely overnight, so what you suspect above would certainly go
along
with my own experience.

As for some of your questions about Botulism, I doubt there's anyone here
who can answer them truthfully.  I'll tell you one thing, though, I tend to
trust
only my own canned goods.  My wife is forever getting pissed at me because
I'm reluctant to eat her granny's preserves.  Politeness is one thing --
death
is another.

Just my 2 cents.

 -Alan


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:02:22 -0600
From: Darrell <darrell at montrose.net>
Subject: RIMS Idea / Question

(This is a repost of a longer message I cancelled to save bandwidth.
Sorry if it gets duplicated.)

This message is also posted in r.c.b, but I wanted to get as much input
as possible - TIA.

OK,  I'm probably thinking too much, instead of just doing it like
everyone else... But, I guess that's why I love brewing!  So, here goes:

I'm in the midst of getting together a RIMS setup, and I've been all
through the Technical Library and associated links.  I was considering
what manner of temperature control I would put in, and while doing this,

two things happened.  1) I re-fab'd my counterflow wort chiller from
3/8" OD tube (50 min. for 10 gal. - ouch!) to 5/8" OD tube inside a 3/4"

hose;  and 2) I glanced at my solar water heater, which also uses a
counterflow heat exchanger from the panels (glycol fluid) to the storage

tank.  I suddenly got this vision of a counterflow heat exchanger
between my sparge tank and my mash tun.  My solar water heater only uses

about 4 feet of tube for the heat exchange, and it heats 120 gallons of
water to within about 10 F of the glycol temp.

So here's my plan.  I use two recirc pumps, one for the sparge water to
the heat exchanger, and the other for the mash through the heat
exchanger.  The sparge recirc would then be controlled by a simple dial
thermostat and a thermocouple in the mash.  The thermostat can be set
for whatever the desired mash temp, and the sparge water would only be
recirc'ing (heating) when the mash was below target.  The sparge tank
could either be heated by a propane burner (original idea), or by an
electric water heater element with a water heater thermostat (latest
thought).  In either case, I don't think I'll have to keep too tight a
control on the sparge water temp (so long as it's at or above 170F),
since the controller will only be keying off of the mash temp, and not
trying to correlate the two.

Here's the benefits I'm considering:

1. Eliminates costly electronic controller for heating element.
2. Eliminates the possibility of scorching the mash on the element.
3. Should simplify cleanup (?), since the element is out of the mash.
4. Eliminates one heating element.

Here's the con's:

1. Sparge water must be kept hot during entire mash.
2. Requires extra recirc pump.
3. Longer time required between steps for step mash.

So, for all you RIMS'ers out there,  please give me your input.  Do you
see any problems with this idea?  Do you think it has merit?  I think it

will greatly simplify the control of the heating process.  I'm mainly
considering this idea for a single step infusion mash, but I think if
the sparge were allowed to boil, there might be enough heat to make step

mashing possible.  Cold water could then be added to get the sparge back

down to 170 F.

Whaddaya think?

- --
Darrell Garton
Montrose, CO


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:02:33 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: MI state fair forms

The entry forms for the Michigan state fair homebrew competition are
now on line as PDF files.  Visit 
	http://realbeer.com/spencer/msf97

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:13:06 -0400
From: "Richard Cuff" <rdcuff at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: General recommendations on mini-batches?

I'm interested in brewing some 1- or 2-gallon batches of various
beers to add some variety to my homebrew experience and to try out
some recipes and techniques.  As for my experience level, I'm an
extract brewer but use specialty grains and liquid yeast.

Are there any general recommendations I should follow in terms of
recipe scaling or technique modification?

Thanks in advance -

Richard Cuff
Lutherville, MD
rdcuff at usa.net

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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 21:03:58 PDT
From: bers at epix.net
Subject: false bottoms

Greeting HBDers
	I've gotten 4 15 gallon stock (16"D X 18"H) pots for my RIMS. 
I've have a sheet of 16 ga SS (38"X 20") for a false bottoms. 
	1: For mashing what is the correct size holes and spacing? I've 
read anywhere from an 1/8" to a 1/16" with 5/32" to as many as you can 
fit.
	2: What is the best way to support this false bottom?
	3: Should I make a false bottom for the boilling kettle? I will 
be using steam injection for the boil kettle. The 1/4" steam line will be 
welded in 1" off the bottom. I will be using an immersion chiller.
	4: What is the best way to draw the wort out of the kettle after 
cooling. The bottom of the the boiling kettle is 28" off the floor. Will 
a 1/2" coupling welded up 1" (centered) off the bottom  work if the cool 
wort is whirlpooled or will a steam injection ring slow up the effect. 
How about a 1/2" nipple welded a 1/2" from the bottom near the edge and 
allowing the hot and cold break to settle, them rack to primary ferm.
	Thanks Tony
E-mail will be find. I will post the resulting.
- -------------------------------------
Name: Tony Maurer
E-mail: bers at epix.net
Date: 7/30/97
Time: 9:03:58 PM
Home Brewing is more that a hobby. It like being a god for yeast. 
- -------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:11:35 -0700
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Next Quantum leap

                                                                  
                                                |
I've been voyeuristically reading HBD for about a year, and think
it's time to dive
in with a question or two.  Be gentile...

I'm looking for the next change in my brewery to give me that
quantum leap in 
taste.  After pouring over most of the threads, I've come up with
2 areas for 
improvement.

1. Summertime wild yeast. (Thanks Korzonas)
2. Too hot brew cellar (hah cellar, that's a laugh).


The solution to the wild yeast in the air (airborne nastiest) is
to fill the fermenter
without splashing, and use o2, or an aquarium pump w/surgical
filter and an 
airstone.   

Question: How long do I aerate with o2 if my OG is 1.060? How long
with an 
aquarium pump?  Woa, I re-read the thread search of 1996 HBD for
"oxygen and 
Lang", and don't know if I want to open up that can of worms
again.  What I read 
was a couple of minutes for pure o2, but I couldn't find any
guidelines for an 
aquarium pump.  If the pump is an hour, I'll buy the o2 and save
some time.

The solution to the too hot cellar is more tricky.  I'm "space
challenged" living in 
a condo. I keep the air on most of the summer and my back closet
is usually 
at 72-74.  Meaning my ferments get to 78.  I've noticed a definite
fruity taste 
when using Wyeast 1098 British.

Question:  Anyone have good results with another yeast at high
ferment temps?
Maybe another yeast whose flavor profile does not change much at
high
temps? From the Wyeast literature I'd like to try one of the
following yeasts 
which top out at 75 deg.  Wyeast 1007, 1028, 1084, 1075.  I'm not
big on 1056,
otherwise I'd use that.  I've read in some of the high ferment
threads that 1056 
is a good choice because its clean.  What I'm looking for is
something that is 
classic British, but doesn't get too fruity at high temps.  I'm
not big on trappist, 
otherwise I'd do that.

Overall Question: What will effect taste the best?  Aerate and/or
buy a fridge.  
I haven't tasted the Band-Aid taste in my beers (though I'm no
professional taster),
so wild yeast may not play a role at all. Is 78 degrees just too
damn high?  I 
read a few techniques short of buying a fridge (wet towels, doing
the Ice block 
shuffle...) and ruled all of them out. What's my next quantum
change?

Thanks.  Private e-mail is fine, or point me to a thread search
that I missed.  

 - Mike from Chicago   



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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:35:48 -0700
From: "Christopher D. Hutton" <bachstar at erols.com>
Subject: Labels

What are the best labels to use on bottles?  I'm looking for easy removal.
"It is high...It is far... IT IS GONE!!!"
Chris Hutton

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 09:00:41 -0400
From: "Michael Baum" <michael.baum at nist.gov>
Subject: Finally, a silly botulism question

I've sorted of sampled the great botulism debate every so often with
fascination, and I keep coming back to a question that is probably very
naive: All of the discussion seems to be concerned with the possibility
that canned wort could become contaminated with the botulism toxin. Why is
this not considered a problem with the finished product, the beer?

I don't mean beer that has been brewed from a possibly contaminated canned
wort. Suppose you just started out in the more usual fashion and brewed up
a batch from extract or grain or whatever. Why does one not worry about
the growth of C. botulinum in the beer? Does the boiling of the wort kill
the spores? Or does the alcohol inhibit growth? Or what?

Rather obviously, my training is not in
biochemistry.

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:20:27 -0500
From: Jim Thomas <jim.thomas at telops.gte.com>
Subject: PEnlightment PMe

Brewers,

Could someone please enlighten me on the placement of the letter "p" in
front of Belgian style beer names, e.g. pwit, plambic, etc.

Is this some sort of acknowledgement that only REAL Beligian ales are
brewed in Belgium?

Jim

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:59:06 -0700
From: "Ian Wilson" <ianw at sosinet.net>
Subject: Botulism Thread

With all due respects to all the posters, and there have been many - some
good ones, too:

Spouting of statistics is a relative subject! For example, one can
determine the odds of being the winner of the California Lottery by
dividing the number of tickets one buys by the total number of tickets
sold. However, the person who manages to win is a one-hundred percent
winner!

Statistics work well when predicting the behavior of a function over a
large population.  For example: if 1 in 10 million people poke their eye
with a sharp stick, today, some 27 people will do so in this country. The
chances of me doing it are indeed slim, but if I am one of the unlucky
ones, it bloody hurts.

The same applies to bot toxin. The chances of propblems with heat-canned
wort are probably very slim in healthy adults.  If bot strikes, the chances
are very grim.

In fact, statistcally, I stand a better chance of being killed in a car
accident than I do from bot toxin. I have to drive, therefore I take every
precaution I can. I want to brew and use cultured yeast, therefore I
pressure-can my starters.  BTW, I gott my pressure canner at Target - on
the clearance rack for $14.00!

Remeber, there is a wag with a tag line somewhere on the HBD that reads;
"Brew or Die!" Notice the conjunctive is a mutually exclussive proposition.
Let's keep it that way.

Ian Wilson

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:15:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: Soda Taps


Chris Hansen asks about using a soda tapper for beer:

I also managed to pick up one of these at an auction for cheap.
The jockey box part (either a cold plate or coils) I can used with no 
problem. However the faucets used for soda (in my experience) cause 
excessive foaming when used for beer. I replaced the soda faucets with 
standard beer faucets and everything fine. Also you may need to 
replace the tubing depending on its type and age and what kind of soda it 
carried.

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply Co.
fred at brewsupply.com   *or*   waltman at netcom.com
http://www.brewsupply.com


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:20:26 -0400
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: re: Legal brewing of Eisbocks

Hi All,

  I've watched the debate here in the HBD about the legality of ice beers and
eisbocks with some interest.  Everything so far has not referenced any of the
applicable US regulations.

  According to US law ( 27 CFR part 25 section 25.262 "Restrictions and
conditions on processes of concentration and reconstitution"):

"(a) Conditions on concentration.  A brewer may not employ any
process of concentration which separates alcohol spirits from any
fermented substance."

  And by definition ( 27 CFR part 252 section 252.11 "Meaning of terms"):

"Distilled spirits or spirits.  That substance known as ethyl
alcohol, ethanol, or spirits of wine, in any form (including all
dilutions and mixtures thereof, from whatever source or by whatever
process produced) but not denatured spirits."

  So it seems to me (I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV) that any
concentration of alcohol (ie eisbocks) is NOT allowed by breweries or
individuals.

  All of this info can be found on the web at:

  http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/alcohol_tobacco.html

                                    Hoppy brewing,

                                    Jeff


==============================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                    Phone:  (401) 841-7210 x152
Mechanical Engineer                    Fax:    (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch  email: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI  02841-1708

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:42:24 -0500
From: Graham Barron <gbarron at cq.com>
Subject: A little more on Blue Moon

As I stated previously, I don't want this to go on forever, but just a few
more comments on recent posts.

Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> wrote:
>Well, I've tasted and brewed a bunch of Wit beers.  I had one bottle
>of Blue Moon "White" recently, and I thought it was pretty well on
>style.  Definately at the light, soft end of the range, but still in
>style.

Well, to say Spencer is far more knowledgable than I when it comes to beers
of all types is an extreme understatement.  As I said before, I'm no style
hound or anything, and Blue Moon White may meet style guidelines, I just
thought it was too light and soft to really taste like anything, much less
a rich, tasty wit.

dconger at roadshow.com wrote:
>Subject:   Lawnmower Wit
>. . .The Blue Moon Wit is better suited [than Hoegarrden] to wash down
some junk   
>food.  Blue Moon:  The finest lawn mower wit I know.

I suppose so, but then again I'm one of those that totally discounts the
idea of there being such a thing as "lawnmower beer."  If I'm mowing the
lawn or am hot and thirsty, I drink water, not beer.  Or water first, and
then beer.

Moyer, Douglas E (MIS, SalemVA) wrote:
>My dear collective,
>	Many of you have been quite negative concerning our little
>Coors's subsidiary. . . . I found their Belgian White at the local Kroger.
Well, 
>Blue Moon was
>dropped about a year ago, but it pushed me to explore Belgian ales
>whenever possible. I've had a string of wits, tripels, lambics, browns
>that I've absolutely loved. I'm not going to argue that Blue Moon is
>close to style (I really can't remember how it tasted by the time I
>tried Hoegaarden, et. al.) but I have to say that I enjoyed it
>thoroughly when it was available. It pointed me in a direction in which
>I'm happy to travel. . . . I have to applaud the big guys for even
>trodding that ground. 

You make an excellent point, and I suppose that, in that context, Blue Moon
has its place among the beers you find on a grocery store shelf.  I don't
know if I want to applaud the "big guys" for attempting to make these
beers, though.  Really there is no point if they are going to make beers as
weak as the Blue Moon line, or the A-B Michelob specialty line.  I'd rather
them just not get involved at all and leave it to the micros.  Sure, we
have some interest in the larger brewers trying to push people towards
specialty beers.  But they have their own interests at heart really.  I
think their marketing people are just trying to draw those people who have
dabbled in micros back to their own brands, esentially stealing potential
micro customers away from the real microbrewers who need the expanded
customer base.  A-B, Coors, Miller, etc., they are only looking out for #1
and I don't think give one hoot nor holler about craft beer.  Is it worth
it, from our standpoint, to support these larger brewers getting involved
and bringing over a small percentage of people, such as Douglas (we're glad
to have you Douglas, don't get me wrong!), to craftbeers, when most of
those who try them (the fake micros) will never venture further.  The large
percentage of those who try the Blue Moon type beers will probably forever
stay with that or only intermittently switch between their regular brand
(Coors or whatever) and those same mass produced "micros," esentially
giving the big boys more money and preventing market share from going to
true craft brewers.

If you can't tell, I really have a cynical view of the major brewers and
their motivations.  I see very little good coming from their ventures into
"real beer."  Well, maybe I've got their motivations totally wrong.  I
don't claim to have done any market research or anything, and I don't want
to give the impression that I'm consumed by the business of beer, so if
anyone has another view, it is surely welcome.

Sorry to be taking up space on stuff that is not about homebrew, but I
think the entire mass produced "micro" situation is germane to our movement.



Graham L. Barron
New Media
Congressional Quarterly
Washington, D.C.
(202) 887-8684

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 08:04 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Special Old Ale - Barleywine Style?

On my trip to Boston earlier this month I had the pleasure of visiting 7 
different brewpubs (over 7 days). I tasted a lot of brew and am writing a 
report if anyone is interested. My absolute favorite was the "Special Old 
Ale" made by Commonwealth Brewing Co right in the middle of downtown Boston, 
two blocks from the North T station (we went everywhere on the "T").

Does anyone know of a 5 gallon recipe that comes even close to this beer? 
They say its made in the "barleywine style" and its served in a sherry glass 
(quite appropriately in my opinion). The stuff was absolutely delicious, 
especially after a full rack of the baby back ribs, which were good but not 
as good as the ones at John Harvards over in Cambridge.

Anyhow, I'd love to make some of this beer. Its less bitter than Bigfoot, 
closer to Old Foghorn, but much (MUCH) better than either of them. Hard to 
describe.

Charley (dying for some Special Old Ale) in N.Cal.


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:23:18 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: At Wit's End -- Another Recipe 

I recently made a "wit-like" beer that was well received by those who
tasted it at the NHC a couple of weeks ago.  At least, folks kept
going back for another glass!

The recipe was simplicity itself:

9lbs 2-row pale malt
2oz Hallertau Hersbrucker plugs (2.6%)
1oz bitter orange peel, pulverized in a coffee grinder
1/2oz Coriander seeds, ditto
"Hoegaarden" yeast, cropped from a friend's batch of Wit.

Single-infusion mash (about 150F) for 2 hours (could go shorter, but I
was doing errands during the mash).

First-wort-hop with all the hops.  (I.e., dump the hops into the wort
during sparging.)

Boil 60 minutes.  Add coriander and orange peel at knock-out.

Pitched about 4oz yeast slurry into 5 gallons of 1.046 wort.

FG 1.012.

The only real flaw was a pronounced diacetyl aroma, because I racked
the beer into the keg too soon.  

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 08:48 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re:Porter with no body

John E Carsten asks in HBD 2474 about a bodiless porter. Well, I resemble 
this problem. I quote his mash schedule "125F for 20 min; 142F for 30 min; 
158F for 45 min; 168F for 10 min".

Not knowing the modification level of the 2Row Klages, I'm going to assume 
that its a pretty average 2-Row Pale Ale malt. The problem I see with this 
mash schedule is the 30 minutes spent at 142F. I believe that modification 
level of the malt will leave a low amount of mmw proteins in the malt in the 
first place and this much time spent at this temperature will convert the 
remaining proteins to much smaller ones, lowering the body and mouthfeel. By 
the time the mash got to 158F, there wasn't anything left for the amylase to 
do. My personal advice would be to do a single infusion mash at 154F - 156F 
for this Porter.

Qualification - never having used Klages malt, I could be way off on this 
one, but using GW and HB, I think I'm right on.

Charley (single infusion mashing) in N.Cal


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:41:24 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Bodyless Porter, V. wilt on hops

Brewsters:

John Carsten complains of a Porter with no body:

>The problem is, the beer seems kind of "hollow". =


And then lists his mashing temperature profile:

>125F for 20 min; 142F for 30 min; 158F for 45 min; 168F for 10 min

Try this schedule:

Bring to 122F with 125 -130F water (about 8 qts per 10 lbs - depends on t=
he
heat of slaking of the malts used.  I often use 130F water to get the mas=
h
to 122F then dilute with 122F water to get the proper water proportion fo=
r
a stiff mash) , hold for 15 minutes, heat with constant stirring to 135F =
at
about 2 deg/min, hold for 15 minutes at 135F, then infuse boiling water t=
o
158F ( about 6-7 qts as I recall).  If you use a kettle as  a masher, sto=
re
it in an insulated box and re-heat at about 20 minute intervals or when t=
he
temperature falls about 2 degrees for a total hold of 45 min at 158F., th=
en
raise to 167F , etc

I would also not add the gypsum as it tends to dry out the beer taste.
- ------------------------------------------------  =

When I grew up in the mid-west I thought it was natural for tomato plants=

to go yellow on the bottom leaves about this time of year.  Turns out it
was the virus infection Verticillium Wilt as evidenced by the lack of
yellowing when I choose wilt resistant tomato plants.

I suspect that the yellowing of the hop vines at the bottom, tomato plant=
s
and cucumbers is Verticillium Wilt and other viral wilts and cannot be
cured by adding anything to the soil.  Picking off the lower leaves will
supposedly help with this and mildews, but it is one of those things that=

can only be cured by using plants that are not susceptible to wilts. =

Anyone know of varieties of hops that are verticillium wilt resistant?
- ----------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: 31 Jul 1997 12:27:57 +0100
From: "Ray Robert" <Ray_Robert at bah.com>
Subject: thermometers

I also realized in my past brew session that my dial thermometer was reading
differently than my dairy thermometer.  Mine was also off by 10 degrees, which
explains why my beer turned out a little funky.  

My question is what is the most reliable, accurate thermometer?

I have heard about problems with the probes of digital meters.  Any consensus?

Robert Ray
ray_robert at bah.com

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:33:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Crystal and Chocolate Malt -- DO Try This at Home!

Guy Gregory wites:

"Kenny, how about a test mash?  That's how I figured
out about how much my home malted grain would yield...I mashed a measured
amount in a measured amount of water, measuring gravity at the start, and the
end of fermentation.  Scale down to a pint, you can mash in a saucepan,
sparge in a colander, ferment in a quart jar, and a packet of dry yeast will
ferment the stuff mighty fast! By the way, I'm gonna try your method with
this year's barley crop."

Thanks for your suggestion of a test brew.  I had thought about that, and may
just go ahead with it.  Since I made the stuff, I've read several accounts of
how crystal malt is made (when in doubt, read the directions...), both at
home and commercially, and it appears that the process I used is pretty much
the same.  Mosher makes a comment in Homebrewer's Companion to the effect
that this process favors production of dextrins over fermentables, though I
don't know how this would be given that a regular wort mashed at 150F is
bound to be pretty fermentable.

If you want to try this yourself, the only thing I would add to my HBD2472
post is that you can go with a slightly higher roasting temperature; 300F
seems to be the norm in the literature.  This should colorize the malt more
quickly.   Also, you can make a Cara-Pils clone by roasting at a lower
temperature, just to dry the malt, and preventing caramelization of the
sugars.  175F would probably be good.

I did also go ahead and make some chocolate malt, too, which came out very
nicely.  The first batch was placed in a 450F preheated oven for one hour,
which resulted in about 50% of the batch roasted perfectly and about 50%
burnt to a crisp.  I redid the batch, starting at 350F; after about an hour I
cranked the temperature up slowly until the stuff was done.  I stirred the
malt on the cookie sheet every 15-20 minutes to keep it evenly baked.  Also,
you'll notice that you get "popmalt" as the temperature rises.  Some of the
malt actually pops like popcorn (though rather anemically), exposing a puffed
ball that tends to scorch easily.  The lower starting temperature in the
second batch dramatically reduced the popmalt thing, and the malt came out
wonderfully.  Once the malt quits popping, you can probaly crank the oven up
to 450F to finish (stirring frequently).  Try to stop the roasting when the
malt is dark brown as opposed to black, unless you're aiming towards "black
malt".  To make roast barley, follow the procedure for chocolate malt but
start with *unmalted* barley.

Also note that the first (burnt) batch dropped about 20% in weight, while the
second (good) batch dropped about 15%.  If you're making "just enough" malt
for your next brew, keep this in mind.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:42:24 -0700
From: otto at alldata.com (Doug Otto)
Subject: botu-f$%$%^$^ing-ism

Could we please knock off the p*ssing war that has been going on over
this.

Yes - botulism can kill you.  If you're concerned about it, read a
book.

I kinda used to like when this list talked about beer.

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 12:54:26 CDT
From: jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: BATF and Eisbocks

As far as the legality of making Eisbock goes, I could not care less whether
or not the BATF considers it legal.  The likelyhood of their bothering me
is remote.  Now, if they ask me to inform on someone and I refuse, I would
worry about any minor infraction of their rules.  So far, they don't have
any reason to go after me.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at imtn.dsccc.com

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:23:49 -0600
From: "Wilson, Todd (MCI)" <Todd.W.Wilson at mci.com>
Subject: Negro Modelo

I must say that one of my favorite beers is Negro Modelo and I don't
have a clue as to how one would categorize it other than it is a dark
lager.  Could someone please post some info on this brew?  I would like
to try to brew an all grain clone so if anyone has any interesting
recipes please pass them along.  

Thanks
Todd
Todd.W.Wilson at MCI.com


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 15:04:38 MDT
From: guym at Exabyte.COM
Subject: Re: Home crystal/dander/chile/hop bugs/gunk

     Guy Gregory asks:
     
     >>Another: My kegs sometimes sit for a while, and then when they are 
     tapped some solid gunk comes out.  I presume this is yeast and other 
     solids, but after my neighbor went berserk and went back to drinking 
     Keystone..(no beer in a clear glass for her again!!! The rest of us 
     continued to drink this ale).  I got to wonder..IMBR?  I'd notice an 
     infection by taste first, right? Is my neighbor reactionary?  I think 
     yes.<<
     
     From one Guy to another,
     
     This is pretty normal in my experience, especially if you use the keg as 
     basically a secondary/tertiary.  I usually let it sit at serving 
     temperature for a couple of days or so after carbonating and then draw off 
     the first pint or two before serving.  This usually gets rid of the vast 
     majority of any sediment.  I have now finished my cold box though and I am 
     going to try settling the yeast out of the current batch in the primary by 
     lowering the temperature to near freezing before transferring to the kegs. 
     Since I force carbonate, this should not matter and should reduce the 
     sediment considerably.
     
     Sorry for the interruption - back to the Botulism Digest now...
     
     --
     Guy McConnell /// Huntersville, NC /// guym at exabyte.com
                /// CoralReefer at compuserve.com ///
     "Give me oysters and beer, for dinner every day of the year, and I'll feel 
     fine..."
     


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:36:17 -0400
From: Eric Tepe <tepee0 at chmcc.org>
Subject:  aerator

Collective,

     I recently purchased a air pump to aerate my wort.  I also purchased
a "air wall" aerator.  It is made of some kind of porus plastic so it can not
be boiled to sanitize it.  It can be soaked in iodophor or bleach with out
any apparent problem.  Should I have purchased an aerator that I could
boil or will this work if I keep it expremely clean and sanitized?

Thanks in advance to all who respond.
Private e-mail ok

Eric R. Tepe

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:47:17 -0500
From: Mike.Beatty at dscoe.com
Subject: RE: Minneapolis Brew Info Wanted

- --__~! at #$%^&*()(*&^%$# at !~! at #$0026584654
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry gang.  It appears that my return email address did not go
through.  I sincerely appreciate all responses.

Mike Beatty
Mike.Beatty at dscoe.com
>
> I'm planning a trip to Minneapolis next weekend, and I checked 
> the BrewPub listings on the web.  But that's all I have, just a=
 listing.  
> I'd appreciate if anyone can offer some first-hand info on good=
 times, 
> food and drink in the metro area.  Also, if any of the micros have 
> lounges, bars, etc. and are worth a stop, I'd like to hear about 
> them as well.
>
> Thanks for the bandwidth (no apologies for wasting it, I really 
> appreciate this information!).
>
> Brew on, fellow barley chefs!
> Mike
- --__~! at #$%^&*()(*&^%$# at !~! at #$0026584654--


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:23:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Malta & botulism

Jeff writes:
>Since these two seem to be the same product, I wonder
>what the difference is, and why Latin Americans aren't dying of malta
>botulism.

Malta is carbonated (which lowers pH) and the Malta I've *seen*
was dark, like a dark brown ale (dark grains also lower pH).  Recall
that if the pH is low enough, the botulism spores do not "hatch."
It is unclear whether hops inhibit botulism, but maybe they do.  This
would be further protection for the Malta and personally, I don't
put hops in my starter wort.

I'll repeat my original assertion: if it has even the remotest potential
of killing you, err on the side if safety.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:56:16 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  1 in a billion

Home Brewers:

I?ve been waiting (lurking) on the subject of botulism for someone to make
the erroneous ?1 in a billion chance, so I not gonna do it? argument.  I
believe it was Al K who said:

>I feel compelled to comment because there is a lot of conflicting
>information out there.  Both Papazian and Miller have said it's okay to
>can wort without pressure-cooking.  Many posters, such as Jeff, use
>the argument that if someone died from it, we would have heard about it
>by now.

>The odds are very slim, but non-zero, that you will die from botulism
>from using canned wort that has not been pressure-cooked.  Even if
>the chances are one in a billion, the consequences are bad enough that
>I don't want to take that risk.  I encourage others to do as I do, err on the
>side of safety, and either make up starter wort on an as-needed basis,
>or get a pressure-cooker.  Finally, I would urge everyone to stop
>*speculating* about the safety of wort canned using an open-kettle
>boil.  Please!

Replace the words above:
"canned wort" with "home brew"
  and
"pressure cooked" with "brewed properly"

First of all wasn?t Charlie P. Who said  ?no known pathogens can survive
in finished beer?.  How credible is that statement?  As home brewers,
nobody ever questions this statement.  It sounds like *speculation* to me. 
Here we are brewing up microbiologic stews of lord knows what kind of
pathogens and yet we never question the safety of our home brew.  But
when someone suggests canning wort without pressure, we are all
going to die.  Face it people, the dangers of simply consuming your own
home brew are far greater than those of contracting botulism from wort
processed in a boiling bath.  It is proven medical fact that if you drink
even one beer, your chances of falling down and splitting your head
open goes up exponentially.  

If you give enough people enough home brew, somebody will have an
adverse reaction and probably die as a result, quite a few more will end
up in the hospital.  If you give enough people hot water bath processed
wort, someone will die.  Lets take it a step further, if you give enough
people properly processed wort from a pressure canner, someone will
die.  When you get to the 1 chance in a billion level, anything has a slight
chance of growing in any media.  There will never be enough scientific
evidence to ensure that any practice is 100 percent risk-free.  The fact
that no incidences of anyone dying from improperly canned wort have
been noted is evidence (it might be slight evidence, but it is sound).

This all has to do with risk assessment and looking at risk in relation to
other risks.  We all take risks every day.  So if you are worried about a
one in a billion chance of anything, you shouldn?t be home brewing (or
drinking alcohol or eating food of any kind).

Flame on if you must,

Paul Niebergall

(P.S.  - This is not an argument for hot water bath processing wort.  I
always use a pressure canner myself.  The point I?m trying to make is to
look at risks from a rational viewpoint.  This is also not a personal attack
on anyone)


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:39:50 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  1 ina billion - again

Continuation from rant above:

Scott Murman says:

>The other telling story is that even commercial food-prep operations can
>have a problem, and they supposedly "know what they're doing".

And yes, there is a always a slim but measurable chance that an even
an expert home brewer can make a mistake and create a lethal batch of
beer (or at least one that will make some one really sick).  Just because
one may be an expert, and have made a billion batches of beer, this can
still happen.  So using the paranoid logic, we should not home brew.

>No-one said botulism will run rampant in any food not pressure canned,
>only that there was a *chance*.  Statistically it's a small chance, but in
>this case the reward is not worth the risk, IMO.  

See response to Al above.

>When someone comes out with scientific proof that beer wort can be
>water-bath canned, I'll be the second person out there telling everyone
>the news.

Scientific proof, are you kidding?  No one is ever going to prove that
anything is safe.  Where is the scientific proof that home brew is safe?

Later,

Paul Niebergall


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:31:56 -0600
From: Darrell <SdarrellP at Amontrose.netM>
Subject: Re: Bulkhead Fittings

Kirk Harralson in Bel Air, Maryland asked about teflon.

Check your local oxygen (medical or industrial) supplier.  Teflon
"o-rings" are very common on "E" size aluminum cylinders.  You may find
one that fits your need.  The other option would be to find your local
Parker distributor.  They make every o-ring imaginable in every
substance; buna, viton, teflon, etc.  You should find them at a
distributor that handles valves and fluid connections.

- --
Darrell Garton
Montrose, CO


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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:41:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Lambic BOS

Knowing Jim, I don't think that he was being intentionally offensive.
Jim has judged pLambics in the nationals and I believe that he simply
sets an unrealistically high standard for pLambics.  I judged his
pGueuze in the 1st round (at Oldenburg) and since I had one in the
2nd round (from Chicago) too, we could discuss what I wrote on his
scoresheet.  He disagreed with my comments and said that the score
(47, I believe) was too high.  Well, not only did it win 1st place
in the second round, but also BOS.  What this proves is that Jim is
far too critical of homebrewed pLambics.  No doubt Jim felt the
homebrewed pLambic was over-rated, as he feels all are (including
his) and his comment was a (undeserved) criticism of the judges rather
than the entrants.  Personally, I think Jim sets far too high a standard
to be an impartial judge in this category.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com



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Date: 31 Jul 1997 16:59:24 -0500
From: John E Carsten <John.E.Carsten at oklaosf.state.ok.us>
Subject: Follow-up; Porter with no body

The collective has spoken.  I received a number of responses about my weak 
porter (mash schedule:
125F for 20 min; 142F for 30 min; 158F for 45 min; 168F for 10 min).  There was 
a common theme ... with a
modified malt like klaages 2-row, I didn't really need the low-temp rests.  By 
the time I made it to the 155-158F
range, there wasn't much "good stuff" left.  Makes sense, since there were 
other similarities in the Belgian wit
also described in this post (on a similar mash schedule, the wit was clear as a 
bell with little head retention).
I've learned my lesson.  Now if somebody can just point me to a source in 
Oklahoma for Miller's book, we'll
be in business.

Anybody want to help me polish off a keg of thin porter?

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Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:15:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: SClaus4688 at aol.com
Subject: Grant's Imperial Stout; eisbock. etc.

Greetings zymurgophiles-

I attended the Oregon Brewers Festival this weekend (haven't missed one yet)!
 Beautiful day, fairly well run fest, many, many beers, etc ...  Two brews
stood out for me.  First was the very yummy Baderbrau Pilsener from
Pavichevich Brewing in Elmhurst, Ill.  It totally blew away the several other
pseudo-pilseners at the fest.  Baderbrau is the STUFF.

The second was Grant's Imperial Stout.  I fell in love with this beer all
over again!  I still remember when it was contract brewed at Portland
Brewing's teeny tiny Flanders Street brewery-pub, where the bartender would
very cordially (and judiciously) cut you off after two pints of this high
octane brew.  This is an amazing beer with powerful hops (it's from Bert
Grant, after all), roasted but not burnt flavor, and a huge alcohol punch
without the accompanying syrupiness that one often finds in beers with super
high starting SG.

Anyway, the point of this post is that I got to thinking that I'd like to
make an Imperial stout like that.  I checked the Cat's Meow, which has three
recipes.  The first is based on extract and the poster says it "tastes like
grapefruit"  (not exactly what I wanted).  The other two are recipes that the
posters never actually brewed (what's up with that?  Why would you post a
recipe if you had no idea whether it was any good?).

So I'm looking for advice on an all grain clone of Grant's Imperial stout.
 The one thing I already know is that it contains a lot of honey, which is
probably one reason it doesn't end up with a barley wine type heaviness.  I
also know it uses lots of hops, with some late additions (and dry hopped???).
 My guess is it has one or more of the citrusy hops from the Yakima Valley
that begin with C.  I wonder what the starting SG is and what quantity/type
of specialty grains are used.  Also, any yeast recommendations?  I usually
use Wyeast Irish in stouts (a serviceable all around ale yeast, BTW), but I
don't know if it can survive the massive alcohol hit.

Private e mail replies are more than OK.  If I don't respond right away, it
doesn't mean I don't love you; I'm just going to be computerless in the
mountains for a few days next week (YEE HA!).

A quick comment on HOTD and eisbock thread.  Oregon revised statutes at
471.440(2) defines distillation as "any ... process which separates alcoholic
spirits from any fermented substance."  It requires a special distiller's
license.  Being an Oregon brewery, I would assume HOTD is subject to this
law.  I didn't see anything in the OLCC rules or Oregon caselaw saying
whether freezing would be considered separating alcoholic spirits from a
fermented a beverage.  I have to say that making the already gargantuan Adam
into an eisbock establishes the HOTD guys as truly sick and twisted brewing
gods.

 -Steve Claussen in PDX

p.s., sorry to waste bandwidth on something other than a speculative,
alarmist or redundant post about botulism.  I'll try to do better next time.
 By the way, thanks to Brian Dulisse for posting some actual data on this
important issue.  I humbly request that others refrain from posting on
botulism unless they can follow suit.

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---