---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Labels (Barry Finley)
  Grapefruit smell ("Nathan L. Kanous II")
  Foreign stout -- viable style? ("Dave Draper")
  First wort hopping ("Dave Draper")
  Wyeast 1728 (David Whitwell)
  Botulism Experiment (MaltyDog)
  pWit again ("Kerr, David")
  Clarification, Chimay ranching ("David R. Burley")
  Small Batch Mash Tun (KennyEddy)
  Is 15000 btu enough? (AJN)
  Foreign Stout... (Some Guy)
  Yeast Starters and Paranoia: A Followup (Rob Kienle)
  legality of eisbocks, again (Jeff)
  Chimay yeast harvesting (Edward J. Basgall)
  C02 is C02 (or "tiny bubbles"), Losing my head (and body too) (Charles Burns)
  Cultivating Hops (John Chang)
  Brewing supplies in the Ithaca, NY area? (Clint Gilbert)
  1997 Homebrew survey ("John Watts")
  Ale Fermenting in The Tropics ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Vanilla in an Imperial Stout (DGofus)
  De Wolf-Cosyns (Keith Busby)
  Re: Bluemoon tartness & recipe ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  apology and questions (Chris Hansen)
  Re: US Tettnang really Fuggle! (Miguel de Salas)
  Plate Coolers (Ray Kruse)
  recent issues (Scott Dornseif)
  Chimay Clone (eric fouch)
  Re: Jim Liddil's cynicism ("Jim Parker")
  Increasing Extraction Efficiencies??? ("Rick Creighton")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:41:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Barry Finley <bfinley at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: Labels

Well, If everyone hasen't got their fill on labels yet, I'd like to throw
my $.02 in. I have tried all of the labeling methods that were posted in
the previous installment of the HBD, except for the use of Tacky Glue. And
all have worked well. The only problem that I have with all of these
methods is that you have to make a mess with water to remove the labels.
The last time that I bottled, I went to the school/office supply section
of the local discount store and found what I thought was a glue stick made
by 3M. When I got home, I realized that what I had bought was not a glue
stick, but a removable adhesive. 3M says it is what they put on the back
of post-it notes. I tried it anyway. You can put as much or as little of
the stuff that you need on the back of the label. It works much better
than the adhesive found on post-it notes. But here is the great thing
about this adhesive. You can put it in water (put your bottles in a cooler
full of ice water) and the labels stay put: But when you go to remove the
label, all you have to do is pry a corner up and pull the label off. The
label will remain intact so you can possibly use it again (if you're on a
tight budget like myself), but what's cool is that you don't have to use
any water, and you don't have to scrape glue or paper fibers off the
bottle. By the way, I have no association with 3M corperation, other than
the fact that I enjoy many of their products.

*************************
    Barry C. Finley  
  College of Education
The University of Georgia
*************************


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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 09:42:43 -0400
From: "Nathan L. Kanous II" <nkanous at tir.com>
Subject: Grapefruit smell

Rene' asked about the presence of a "rotten grapefruit" smell in a
recent batch.  We need more info regarding techniques and ingredients,
but I can offer some information regarding the grapefruit taste.  It
seems to me that I have heard (and have in fact tasted) a distinct
grapefruit taste when using Chinook hops.  I have seen brewpubs even
include this "grapefruit" taste in the descriptions of their beers. 
Now, you haven't given us any information regarding your ingredients,
but I thought I would just pass this on as one simple possibility.

Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI

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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:41:32 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Foreign stout -- viable style?

Dear Friends,

In #2476, Rene' wrote questions about potential problems in his
Foreign Stout.  I'm going to use that post as an excuse to spin off
the following question, one that has crossed my mind repeatedly over
the years.  I am quite familiar with the historical background to
the style, but am wondering whether there is any relevance any longer
to such an appellation.  Given the "internationality" of the world of
brewing, it seems to me that this is a term that has outlived its
usefulness and does more to confuse than to enlighten. Foreign to
whom?  I would be interested to see some commentary on what others
think of this.  Are there any characteristics unique to Foreign
Stout?  Or is it just an AHA-derived anachronism that should be
retired in favor of the other subcategories of stout, which (in my
*opinion*) cover the stout territory quite adequately?  And please
don't mistake this question for some attempt at political
correctness-- I am genuinely curious.  This is probably better for
general posting than for private email (anything to dilute the
umpteenth botulism thread!). 

Thanks and cheers,

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
I can't be bought for a mere $3.50. ---Jeff Renner


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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:48:10 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: First wort hopping

Dear Friends,

Brian Moore asked about the basics of First Wort Hopping.  I'd just 
like to remind interested readers that my beer page has a summary of 
the procedure as described in Brauwelt International, plus a table of 
some results submitted by HBDers on their homebrew-scale usage.  I am 
always interested in more info to add to the table, by the way, so if 
anyone wants to add their two cents, have a look at the page to see 
the form of the info I have there and then fire at will.

Cheers, Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
The one with the biggest starter wins. ---Dan McConnell


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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:04:35 -0700
From: dwhitwell at foxcomm.net (David Whitwell)
Subject: Wyeast 1728

I am preparing to make my christmas ale, and am planning to use 1728 in
hopes of getting a diacetyl flavor (butterscotch/buttery).  If I am not
mistaken, diacetyl production happens at slightly warmer temps.  However, I
want to minimize fusels.  Has anyone figured out a good ferm. schedule with
1728 that will maximize diacetyl and minimize fusels?

Brew On!
David Whitwell
Half-Whit Brewing, Tacoma, WA
"Because Half the Whit's Brew, and Half the Whit's Don't"

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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:06:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: MaltyDog at aol.com
Subject: Botulism Experiment

Since there is so much endless speculation about this matter, which never
does seem to go away, maybe it's time for a well-financed source (Zymurgy,
maybe, or Brewing Techniques) to conduct a little experiment to see how
botulism spores react in wort. 

I'm no scientist, so I'm not sure exactly how you would conduct it, but it
does
seem feasible to add some botulism spores to wort, heat it in the standard, 
non-pressure cooking way, and then check them after a set period of time, to
see if they survived or grown in any way.

Some more scientifically-minded folks out there might have more specific
ideas
of the best way to conduct a test.

Bill Coleman
MaltyDog at aol.com

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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:24:44 -0400
From: "Kerr, David" <David.Kerr at ummc.ummed.edu>
Subject: pWit again

A. pWit

Q. What sound does a mouthful of Blue Moon Belgian White make before it
hits the ground?

Dave Kerr  "Be good and you will be lonely" - Mark Twain

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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:27:22 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Clarification, Chimay ranching

Brewsters:

Greg Moore suspects his starter procedure is causing his beers to clarify=

slowly.

I find this unlikely unless you are somehow getting contamination of the
starter in the process.  If this is an all grain process use a teaspoon o=
f
Irish Moss flakes ( hydrated for 30 minutes)  during the last 10 minutes =
of
the boil to improve the removal of protein and other bits of stuff.  If y=
ou
are carbonating naturally, prepare a bottling starter from a tablespoon o=
f
malt extract and the nomal amount of bottling sugar, boil and cool, add
yeast and beer siphoned from the bottom of the secondary.  This solution
should just begin to foam in about 12 hours. Bottle now and the yeast wil=
l
be viable and carbonate your beer and flocculate quickly.  Be sure to sto=
re
the beer in a place where the temperature does not change rapidly and if =
it
is an ale yeast keep the temperature at about 70F for a week or so. =

- -----------------------------------------
Jay Spies wants to know how to capture the Chimay yeast.

 As you may know,  Chimay is one of the few yeasts in naturally condition=
ed
commercial bottles that is the same as the yeast used in the fermentation=
=2E =

So if you don't let it get too warm during the fermentation ( keep it
around 60-65F), then you will get a flavor from the yeast that is similar=

to Chimay, otherwise your beer will reek of fusel oils.

The trick to capturing this yeast without contamination is to wipe off th=
e
bottle and, after opening , the mouth of the bottle with sterilizing
solution.  Pour out and discard the first small amount of beer to avoid
getting sterilizing solution then pour our (and drink!) all but about 1
inch in the bottom of the bottle. Try to do this all in one motion to avo=
id
stirring up the yeast sediment.   Add into the bottle, through a steriliz=
ed
funnel, about 11/2 cups of cool boiled starter solution made from 2
tablespoons of malt extract. Close it up with plastic wrap and a rubber
band and allow it to ferment.  When rapidly fermenting, pitch to a larger=

starter.  Capturing the yeast in the bottle, rather than pouring it out
into the starter minimizes the chance of contamination from the mouth of
the bottle and maximizes the chance of getting a lot of yeast.  I would n=
ot
recommend flaming the mouth for sterilization as it is unlikely you will
get the neck warm enough to do any good without spilling out the beer.
- -----------------------------------------
Compuserve promised me that this text would not be disrupted by =3D signs=
,
line and word truncations,  etc. after they fixed the problem with their
software this past weekend. I hope so for all our sakes.  Thanks for your=

patience.
- -----------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:36:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Small Batch Mash Tun

A couple of  corrections concerning my "plans" for a mini-mash tun (HBD2475):

1.  The 1/2" copper pipe itself will not slip over the 5/8" OD tubing...use a
straight coupler, which *will* slip over the tubing, on the open end of the
pipe.

2.  The "tapered" end of the bung should be on the *outside* of the cooler.

3.  The hole in the cooler that the bung snaps into should be 7/8", not 1".

Also, when you enlarge the hole on the outside layer of the cooler, be sure
to dig out the insulation down to the inner layer, so that the bung will fit.

BTW this use of the bung as a bulkhead works great in a standard Gott-type
cooler, but since the hole is a bit off the floor of the cooler, the manifold
arrangement needs to be different than I described.  Try two 45-deg couplers
to drop from the hole to the floor level.

Further proof of the dangers of working from memory.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:27:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Is 15000 btu enough?

I have found a single propane burner rated at 15000 btu's for $14.99 US.  
I would use it on my 12"dia 5gal stock pots for mashing and bioling.

This seams like it would be enough for mashing, but would it be enough for 
boiling?

Has anybody out there used burners in this range that could give me an 
indication one way or the other, if this would work?

I have seen the 170000 btu units being used on 15gal sanke kegs, even for 
the boil these things are throttled back, I don't want something that is 
expensive (compared to these 15k units) and doesn't get used at maximum 
output very much.

Private e-mail is fine and I'll re-post if there are any responses.

_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:17:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Foreign Stout...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager of no distinct appellation...

Dave asks about the classification "Foreign Stout" and whether it is 
still applicable in today's spectrum of beer styles...

Having po'ed over the pages of Lewis' "Stout", I am left with the opinion 
that Dave is on the right track! Lewis states (paraphrasing here) that 
stout is not a style, but merely a black beer. Based on this, Dave is 
definitely on the Right Track [tm]! The stout style should be collapsed 
into an all encompassing style called Black Beer. Along with porter, 
schwarzenbier and any other that could not be collapsed into the newly 
defined styles of "Amber", "Golden", "Straw" and "Piss-Yellow Beer".

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan                pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor                  janitor@hbd.org
Desparately struggling to pry my tongue out of my cheek in central NJ.



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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 12:00:20 -0500
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Yeast Starters and Paranoia: A Followup

Thanks to all who responded to my recent query about "invisibly"
fermenting starter vials and strange and curious scents (not botulism!).
Dan McConnell (owner of YCKC) posted a copy of his message to me here
yesterday, so I won't recap his explanation of what I've observed (or
not observed) in small starters. But I did want to recap a thing or two
I've learned from other sources as well.

Most notably, Dave Whitman pointed out that "bubbling only occurs when
diffusion is too slow to remove the CO2 being formed.  Diffusion out of
the wort will be roughly proportional to the ratio of surface area of
the wort relative to its volume.  Smaller samples have a higher surface
area to volume ratio, so diffusion processes do a better job of
'bubbleless' removal of CO2, further reducing the expected bubbling
rate."

In addition, several others noted a lack of visible fermentation in
small starters that go on to perform quite well after stepping up to
larger quantities, so the phenomenon is apparently somewhat common. As
is the case of somewhat noxious scents emanating from the little buggers
(the premade wort, not the yeast).

I should point out here that, apart from my noted confusion (not
considerably lessened), my experiences with YCKC's yeast slants have
always been quite positive, and I continue to recommend Dan's products
to anyone who wants to try slants instead of pouches. The variety of
yeasts availabe is greater, and the ease of stocking up on slants and
storing them in the fridge for later use is terrific. My only regret is
the 3 or 4 starters I dumped because I didn't think they had worked. (No
affiliation, etc. etc.).

- --
Cheers4beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com



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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:31:19 -0400
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: legality of eisbocks, again

Hi All,

  Late last week I posted some info on the legality of brewing eisbocks.
The info I posted was gathered rather quickly from the web site I referenced
in the post.  After going back and looking at this more closely, I have to
admit that what I posted was rather misleading/inaccurate.

"(a) Conditions on concentration.  A brewer may not employ any
process of concentration which separates alcohol spirits from any
fermented substance."

  As has been pointed out already here in the HBD, this basicly says that a
brewer may not remove alcohol from a beer.  In making an eisbock the brewer
is removing water from a beer and making the alcohol more concentrated.

  In summary, the sections of 27 CFR part 25 that I think are applicable to
making eisbocks are:

                        SUBPART R - BEER CONCENTRATE
    25.261 General.
    25.262 Restrictions and conditions on processes of concentration
        and reconstitution.
    25.263 Production of concentrate and reconstitution of beer.
    25.264 Transfer between breweries.

  My interpretation of reading *all* of these sections is that a brewer
CAN legally produce "beer concentrate" by removing *only* water and CO2.
However, the "beer concentrate" can not be sold and must be reconstituted
at a brewery under the same ownership as the one producing the concentrate.
Also, "The process of reconstitution shall provide for the addition
of sufficient water to restore the concentrate to a volume not less
than, and an alcohol content not greater than, that of the beer
used to produce the concentrate."

  Once again, *my* feeling is that commercial breweries (in the US) cannot
legally produce an eisbock, and if a licensed commercial brewery can't then
we as homebrewers can't either.  These laws seem to be written to allow the
brewing of "ice beer".

  My intent in posting this info is mainly to point out that if you do make an
eisbock and the BATF does come knocking on your door (which I think is about as
likely as winning the lottery), that saying "well Joe Agent at the BATF said it
was OK" or "the HBD collective said it was OK" will not do you any good.

  PLEASE let this thread die, or take it offline.  If you want to make your
own informed decision about eisbocks, go take a look at:

  http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/alcohol_tobacco.html

  I now return you to the HBD (Home Botulism Digest) ...

                                    Hoppy brewing,

                                    Jeff


==============================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                    Phone:  (401) 841-7210 x152
Mechanical Engineer                    Fax:    (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch  email: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI  02841-1708

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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:47:19 -0500
From: ejb11 at psu.edu (Edward J. Basgall)
Subject: Chimay yeast harvesting

>I would like to make a Chimay style clone, preferably one of Chimay
>Grand Reserve/Blue Cap, and I have heard of folks harvesting the
>yeast out of the 750ml bottles and re-using it.  I would like to know
>how this is done, so if anyone has suggestions/instructions, let me
>know.  BTW, does anyone have a good all-grain Chimay Grand Reserve
>clone recipie?  There are a few good ones in the Cat's Meow, but I'd
>like to get a recipie that someone has already tasted and can vouch
>for.  Private e-mails are fine.  Thanks.
>From: "Jay Spies" <BantinRJ at mda.state.md.us
>Subject: yeast harvesting

Hi Jay,
I've done this a lot.  It's pretty easy, and I do have a background in
Microbiology.

Sterile technique is important.  I carefully open and decant the Chimay and
cover the bottle with a fresh piece of saran wrap or something rather
sanitary, to keep strangers from drifting in.  A sterile gauze pad with
saran over it also works well.  A good sized "Band Aid" will even work if
you're out in a tavern.  I store the dregs in my refrig until I can make up
a starter.  The easiest way is to start in the original bottle.  I've
always used the 750 ml size and add about 12-16oz of about a 10% solution
of boiled, aerated DME.  I aerate with an aquarium pump and sanitized
airstone through a .2um filter unit.

I flame the mouth of the bottle with a propane torch for a few seconds to
cook any bacteria around the opening, insert a sanitized funnel, pour in my
aerated DME solution.  Re-flame the mouth and add a sanitized airlock.
Swirl daily.  It usually takes several days for the yeasties to wake up,
but they always have.  I usually take a small sample out and do a cell
count at this time.  You can decant off the liquid after letting the yeast
settle for a day or two and then re-pitch this into another larger batch of
10-15% DME or add more DME and divide it up into sterile tubes for
freezing.  I always freeze in about a 10-15% DME solution, leave about a 1"
headspace for expansion.  The hi gravity acts as a cryoprotectant and helps
reduce ice crystal damage to the yeast.  Sorry, but I don't have a Chimay
clone recipe.  Send me a copy if you get one.

good luck

cheers
Ed Basgall
SCUM
State College Underground Maltsters
State College, PA



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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 11:10 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: C02 is C02 (or "tiny bubbles"), Losing my head (and body too)

***
Al K. writes:
>Mark writes:
>>I prefer the head of the naturally carbonated beer as it 
>>seems to be finer and longer-lasting than the forced carbonated.

>Another piece of homebrewing "legend."  Can't be true.  CO2 is CO2
>(when it comes to carbonation)<snip>

While I agree with Al that C02 is C02 (just finished reading the BONDING 
appendix in George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science - great review), I 
too have experienced beer with big bubbles and beer with lots of little 
bubbles. It seems (now **that's** scientific) to me that the finer bubbles 
come from beers that I have mashed at higher temperatures, and therefore 
contain higher ratios of dextrins. Could this be what causes the small vs 
big bubbles?

=====================
Loosing my head...

I have noticed that my **fresh** beer, that which is consumed within 3 weeks 
of brewing has noticibly more head retention and body than beer that is a 
month older. It also is much more clear. Typically it takes my batches from 
2-3 weeks in cold storage to clear. During that same period of time, the 
beer tends to "dry out" and lose its ability to hold up a good head.

What's causing this? Can it be stopped?

Charley (losing it in N.Cal)


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Date: 04 Aug 97 14:55:54 EDT
From: John Chang <75411.142 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Cultivating Hops

Fellow Brewmasters:

I have cultivated several hundred Cascade hop cones from my one producing
rhizome, and have dried the cones out completely (on restaurant baking sheets).
They now have a concentrated "grassy" aroma to them, much unlike the fresh,
lupulin/acid smelling aroma present when first picked.

Is this normal, and how long must one wait before using them?  If not, how can
onedry them to avoid the grassy smell?  

Thanks a bunch.  Private email advice welcome.

John Chang
75411.142 at compuserve.com


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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 17:01:27 -0400
From: clint at greennet.net (Clint Gilbert)
Subject: Brewing supplies in the Ithaca, NY area?

Greetings all,

I posted this question to rec.crafts.brewing, but I thought I would ask the
digest as well.  See RCB if you want my entire long-winded diatribe.  My
question is this:  does anyone know of any places near Ithaca, NY (I will
be going to school there in two weeks) where I can buy brewing ingredients
and supplies?  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Clint Gilbert

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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:17:11 -0500
From: "John Watts" <watts at top.net>
Subject: 1997 Homebrew survey

Greeting All!

As part of a HTML class, I put together a small survey page geared toward 
homebrewers.  It's at http://www.top.net/watts/beer97.htm.  It's an attempt to 
see what type of homebrewers there are out in the world.  It's not much, but 
I've only had 1 class, so what do you expect?  

If you would like to participate in this survey, I thank you.  If you don't, 
that's fine as well.  My only reason for setting it up (besides a class 
assignment) is general curiosity.  I do ask for your name, but that will only 
be used to generate an ID number.  I'm not asking for email address's or 
any information like that.

The survey will be available from today thru the end of September.

Rgds
John Watts
watts at top.net
www.top.net/watts

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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 17:20:12 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: Ale Fermenting in The Tropics

I have been making a few posts recently in search of answers to
problems, and have had alot of you help out, so I figured it's
about time to maybe give some advice based on my experiences.
I live in a very warm area (The Florida Keys) and trying to keep
my ale fermentations at reasonable temps is tricky at best. Even
inside the coolest room in my house it's about 75-77 F with the a/c
going full time. When fermenting lagers, I have the luxury of a spare
refrige so that solves that but what about maintaining a vessel at
55-65F?

I thought about it for a while and came up with using my 10 gallon
round Igloo cooler (which I use for a mash/lauter tun). I place my
6 gallon glass carboy into the cooler and fill the cooler with water
to the level of about where the wort comes. Then, I wrap a cloth towel
around the top of carboy just enough that it still touches the top of
the
water so it stays soaked and provides evaporative cooling. In addition
to that I drop a cup or two of ice cubes in the water and some I
actually
stick to the wet towel and I have managed to maintain a temp of 58-62 F.
I check it about every 8 hours and the temp only fluccuates about 2-3
degrees.
If I could figure out a way to lower the height of the airlock, or maybe
fashion a blowoff tube style airlock, I could put the lid on the cooler
and
the temp would stabilize even better. But for the time being, this
system works
pretty good for me. Give it a try if you find yourself without the
luxury of
having a place to keep it all cool.

Good Luck and Happy Aleing!

Marc


- -- 
Capt.Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com

The reason a dog has so many friends
is because he wags his tail, not his tongue!


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Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:56:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: DGofus at aol.com
Subject: Vanilla in an Imperial Stout

I need some help, and guidance on an Imperial Stout that I am preparing to
brew. I need to know basic brewing , fermenting on this style. My recipe
comes in at abou 1.120 og. Does this mean a much longer fermentation? I would
also like to impart a vanilla overtone to this. It has been suggested that I
take 5 or 6 vanilla beans sliced length wisein the secondary fermenter and
rack onto them. Won't the oils kill any head retention? Any help or
suggestios, recipe guidlines would be appreciated .. Thanks. Private E-mail
ok


Bob Fesmire
Dgofus at aol.com
Pottstown, PA

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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 20:43:29 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at ou.edu>
Subject: De Wolf-Cosyns

A homebrew supplier I talked with recently has stopped selling DWC malt on
the grounds that its quality has become inconsistent recently. Is this a
widespread view?

Keith Busby


Keith Busby
George Lynn Cross Research Professor
University of Oklahoma
Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies
780 Van Vleet Oval, Room 202
Norman, OK 73019
Tel.: (405) 325-5088
Fax: (405) 325-0103

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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 22:38:42 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: Re: Bluemoon tartness & recipe

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --------------F86336940CE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> 
> Kit wanted to replicate the tartness in Blue Moon ale.
> I am not sure exactly which ingredient it was, but I brewed
> a Belgian style ale a while back and all of my friends were
> subjected to a taste test comparison using Blue Moon itself.
> The results, not only could they not tell the difference,
> they chose my homebrew as being better 9 out of 10!!
> The recipe I used follows. Nothing special about the procedure,
> just your ordinary extract homebrew.
> 
> 5 lbs    Extra Light Dutch dry extract
> 2.5 lbs  Orange Blossom Honey
> 1.0 oz   Hallertauer pellet hops (4.5% - boil 45 min)
> 0.5 oz   Hallertauer whole hops (2.4% - steep 10 min)
> 1.0 oz   Coriander Seed (crushed - 1/2 boil 10 min, 1/2 steep 10 min)
> 1.0 oz   Orange Peel (zested fresh and dried, steep 10 min)
> 500 ml   Wyeast #1214 Begian Abbey yeast starter.
> 
> OG 1.059  FG 1.010
> Fermented in glass for 16 days  at  70 F.
> 
> It was (didn't last long) one of the better brews I have made
> as far as a extract brew goes. Clear, crisp, semi-sweet and
> had a wonderful spicy yet floral aroma.
> 
> Hope this helps you out,
> 
> Marc
> ============================================
> The reason a dog has so many friends
> is because he wags his tail, not his tongue!

- -- 
Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com

The reason a dog has so many friends
is because he wags his tail, not his tongue!

- --------------F86336940CE
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Message-ID: <33E656C3.B8C at reefnet.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 18:25:07 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Reply-To: batman at reefnet.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: homebrew at hdb.org
CC: klemmonds at aristotle.net
Subject: Re:Bluemoon Tartness & Recipe
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kit wanted to replicate the tartness in Blue Moon ale.
I am not sure exactly which ingredient it was, but I brewed
a Belgian style ale a while back and all of my friends were
subjected to a taste test comparison using Blue Moon itself.
The results, not only could they not tell the difference,
they chose my homebrew as being better 9 out of 10!!
The recipe I used follows. Nothing special about the procedure,
just your ordinary extract homebrew.

5 lbs    Extra Light Dutch dry extract
2.5 lbs  Orange Blossom Honey
1.0 oz   Hallertauer pellet hops (4.5% - boil 45 min)
0.5 oz   Hallertauer whole hops (2.4% - steep 10 min)
1.0 oz   Coriander Seed (crushed - 1/2 boil 10 min, 1/2 steep 10 min)
1.0 oz   Orange Peel (zested fresh and dried, steep 10 min)
500 ml   Wyeast #1214 Begian Abbey yeast starter.

OG 1.059  FG 1.010  
Fermented in glass for 16 days  at  70 F.


It was (didn't last long) one of the better brews I have made
as far as a extract brew goes. Clear, crisp, semi-sweet and
had a wonderful spicy yet floral aroma.

Hope this helps you out,

Marc
============================================  
The reason a dog has so many friends
is because he wags his tail, not his tongue!

- --------------F86336940CE--


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Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 22:47:29 -0400
From: Chris Hansen <hansen3 at usa.net>
Subject: apology and questions

First, let me apologize for the double post with questions about soda
taps. The first one was a rough draft and I had trashed it but somehow
it was sent anyway.  Secondly the mail program posted a wrong e-mail
address, my correct address is hansen3 at usa.net. (I'm not sure if its the
program or the operator, this one is being sent by netscape mail)
Now the questions----I'm moving my brewery to my cellar and due to
ventilation problems i'm thinking of going to electric water heater
elements for boiling etc. Does anybody use a setup like this? How does
it work? What would you do different?  Private e-mail is fine.

Chris Hansen
hansen3 at usa.net
Long Point Brewery
on scenic Lake Champlain
in beautiful Vermont


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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:51:05 +1000
From: Miguel de Salas <mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: US Tettnang really Fuggle!

Well, I have used Australian grown Tettnang and Hallertauer Mittelfruher,
being in Tasmania where they are grown and, to tell you my opinion,
scientists can stick their GLC, as they don't taste anything like fuggle,
and no one is interested on the way they behave under chemical analysis, but
while brewing.

>GLC analysis of essential oils is a well established method for determining
>the variety of a hop sample. The most likely explanation of the results is
>that mistakes were made many years ago during the propagation and selection
>of the varieties.

I wonder if the author of these lines has actually used any of the varieties
he mentions in his article... 
Miguel.


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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 05:14:57 -0400
From: Ray Kruse <kruse2 at flash.net>
Subject: Plate Coolers

Anyone know where I can buy a plate cooler (preferably without the hoses
and other stuff)?  I've been looking in Zymurgy and other pubs and can't
find any listed.

Private email is ok.  TIA.

Ray Kruse
rkruse at bigfoot.com

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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 07:31:43 -0500
From: Scott Dornseif <dornseif at wwa.com>
Subject: recent issues

HEY!

Will the BATF come and bust down my door if I freeze my canned wort in
order to concentrate the botulism toxins?

Scott

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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 08:33:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: eric fouch <S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021.efouch%Steelcase-Inc at MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject: Chimay Clone


Date: Tuesday, 5 August 1997 8:26am ET
To: STC012.HOMEBRE3 at STC010.SNADS
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001
Subject: Chimay Clone
In-Reply-To: The letter of Tuesday, 5 August 1997 2:40am ET
 
Bill Jackson (and HBD)-
 
A Chimay clone per _Brew Your Own_, July 1997, Vol. 3, No 7:
 
9#'s Pale Ale Malt
1oz Black Patent
1# Brown Sugar
10oz Golden Syrup
2oz Hallertauer
1oz Kent Goldings
Yeast starter from a bottle of Chimay Cinq Cents
5/8 cup brown sugar for priming
 
Mash:
5 minutes in 12 qts. at 148 F
Add 3 qts. boiling water to 152 F for 85 minutes
Sparge with 12 qts. 170 F
 
Boil:
Add sugar, syrup and hops to kettle, boil 60 minutes, cool, pitch yeast
 
Ferment:
68 F to 72 F, for two weeks, rack to secondary, condition at 65 F for three to
four weeks, prime and bottle, age six months.
 
Note-  Golden syrup is an English sweetener they say is available at gourmet
bakeries.  I've not tried this recipe myself, but I'm sure I will]
 
Wassail]
 
Eric Fouch
efouch at steelcase.com
 
"An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he
knows absolutely everything about nothing."


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:55:09 -0600
From: "Jim Parker" <jim at aob.org>
Subject: Re: Jim Liddil's cynicism

Jim Liddil asks some valid questions about what happened at the AHA Board
of Advisers meeting:

>So can you outline what some of the "hows" will be?  Gee I go on vacation
and
>come back to more comments lambic than the issues of the AHA.  I know that
more
>than one BofA person reads the hbd.  So did the AHA put a gag order on all
of
>you?  I guess we have to wait for the Official Party Line to appear on the
AOB
>web site and in Zymurgy?  It makes me wonder who is looking out for who's
best
>interests.

Actually, Jim, you can blame me. I've been tardy in getting meeting notes
back to all of the board. But no gag order here. Can you imagine *anyone*
putting a gag on Ed Busch? or Charlie Olchowski?

>>complete report.  If one of the other BOA members can do that from
>>memory (I didn't take notes) go right ahead; don't wait on me -- I off
>>on some business trips.

>All I hear is silence.

I know some will call this just another lame excuse, but most of us got
back from Cleveland to face a huge pile of work and calls to return. I know
it's taken me a couple of weeks to catch up. I just last night posted a
response on rcb about the demise of the infamous Rule F in the NHC. (I can
post that here if anyone wants)
 
>>Of course results are what counts but I can assure you that the new BOA
>>(some 12+) are committed to working with the AHA to make significant
>>changes.

>Again what are the chnages going to be? What are some of the proposals to
>implement them?  Or are the questions I'm asking one that can only be
answered
>on the AHA Member Only section?

To be honest, with 13 BOA members and four AHA staff -- plus assorted AOB
folk -- in the meeting, we spent more time discussing what areas needed
attention that setting specific plans of action. What we did do was break
into committees to address key issues (The Competition, the Conference,
Zymurgy, Retailers, Brew U, Clubs)  so that those committees can make
specific plans of action.

For instance, the Clubs committee, which includes Charlie Olchowski, Mike
Hall and Ed Busch, is now trying to find a way to get liability insurance
for homebrew clubs.  The Conference committee, which includes Ray Daniels,
Ken Schramm, Charlie Olchowski and Ed Busch is looking at ways to make the
Conference more affordable and more accessible to more members. The reail
committee of Alberta Rager, Kinney Baughman and Randy Mosher has suggested
several changes in our retailers program.

Each committee has a AHA staffer assigned to it, so there is some
accountabiility to make sure their ideas make it to AHA staff meetings. And
the co-chairs -- Ed and Charlie O -- now have a say in my annual
evaluation, to ensure that I will take the board seriously.

We also set up a listserve so that all of the board can more easily
communicate on ideas and suggestions.

Did we get all of the problems solved? Nope. Just getting acqualinted took
up some of the time. But I think everyone there left with a firm belief
that we can work together and make some real progress. But it will take
time. And it will take input from folks like you. I have brought up some of
the ideas and concerns you've raised with me. But to get something from
idea stage to implementation stage isn't an overnight process.

Now, for the question you didn't ask, but I know you and many others are
wondering: Did we discuss changing the structure of the AOB to make it a
more democratic organization? Yes. To a degree. Randy Mosher brought up the
fact that AHA members feel like they are ignored and they would like a
voice in choosing the AOB board of directors. We had two members of the
Board of Directors on hand who listened and got a better feel for how AHA
membership feels. But they didn't offer to step down and take nominations
for their successors. Nor should they. The AOB board oversees all three
divisions (AHA, IBS and Brewers Publications) plus the GABF. The AHA is the
only division whose members are asking for this kind of a change. But the
Board of Directors has to balance the desires of our membership (OK, if you
want I'll say "customers") with the needs of the pro brewers and suppliers
who are part of IBS and the people who buy Brewers Publication books and
all the folks who attend the GABF. It used to be, in the early days, that
the AHA was the "only child" in the AOB family. Then, it was the "tail that
wagged the dog," as the IBS and BP were just fledgling divisions. Now, it
is one of three divisions -- no more special than any other -- except to
those of us involved.

Simply put, the AHA is not going to change the way the AOB is structured or
run. What we can do is make sure my staff and I are more responsive to your
needs and wishes. That I believe we can do. If you have ideas for specific
changes, let us know. If you want the Conference to be less expensive --
and you don't care about what kind of hotel it's in -- let us know. If you
want more content in Zymurgy for the super-geek brewer, let us know. But we
need specific ideas. Just saying "The Conference sucks," or "Zymurgy isn't
what it used to be" qualifies as a bitch, not an idea.

If you give us ideas and you think they're being ignored, let the board
know -- especially Charlie and Ed. They'll get my butt booted out. Let's
face it, I don't know anyone who wants to be director of any organization
with a dissatisfied membership. I certainly don't. I'd rather be brewing.

I don't blame Jim and others for being cynical. You were promised change
and all you've seen so far is me making excuses. But change does take time.
And I'm not rhe type to walk in and start dismantling things until I know
what does and doesn't need fixing. I'm in sponge mode right now, trying to
get a feel for what we need to fix. So bring it on, folks. You tell us what
you want, we'll do the best we can,
then judge us. If we do a good job, we can all celebrate over a homebrew.
If we don't, you'll drop your membership and I'll have to go back to
brewing or bartending, or worse yet -- writing for a living.

Cheers, and don't pull punches.

Jim


P.S. Someone asked about the members meeting Saturday morning. I actually
think everyone was still hungover from the cruise Friday night, because
there weren't that many tough questions. Those who have questions, feel
free to raise them here, or on rcb or on our members' only area.

- ---------------------
Jim Parker
Director
American Homebrewers Association  (303) 447-0816 x 122   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                  (303) 447-2825         (fax)
PO Box 1679                       jim at aob.org            (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679           info at aob.org           (aob info)
U.S.A.                            http://beertown.org    (web)






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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 10:22:30 EST
From: "Rick Creighton" <rcreighton at smtpinet.aspensys.com>
Subject: Increasing Extraction Efficiencies???

I have made the jump to becoming a true gadget-geek. Recently, I 
purchased a "Phils Phalse Bottom", and one of the "Phil's Sparging 
Arms", and mounted them in a 5 gallon Igloo beverage cooler. (I also 
recently redesigned my immersion chiller so that it includes a "pre-
chiller" coil!)

Well I finally got around to using it this weekend, to make a porter 
(the recipe was from the recent Zymergy Porter issue), and although 
everything seemed to go well (temperatures and times were all right on 
target, not even a hint of clogging during sparging!) the OG was almost 
30 points below target (the recipe said 1.052, and I got 1.023.) I seem 
to have this problem with just about every single batch of beer I've 
ever made in the 5+ years I've been brewing(though not to this severity, 
usually I'm about 5-10 pts low). However, these low OGs don't seem to 
really have that much of an effect on my beer, In fact, I can't keep my 
friends away from my homebrew, and have won several contests in the SCA 
(a medieval historical re-enactment group). I'm actually starting to 
suspect that my hydrometer may bee miscalibrated...

Anyway, I wondered if anyone has any quick and easy (and CHEAP) 
suggestions for how I can increase my yield. Or is it that I am just not 
doing something right during the mash? I just want to come closer to the 
numbers in the books. I'm not really obsessed with squeezing every 
single available molecule of suger and starch out of my grains (although 
with time, I'm sure I will be!) I just want to make a batch of beer that 
has an OG that I have to worry about...

- --Richard Creighton



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---