---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Easy Off Labels (Jeff Renner)
  Hop Analysis, ("David R. Burley")
  Not trying to step on toes! (Barry Finley)
  Hop back ("Braam Greyling")
  BATF Brewing Equipment (LNUSTRUK.CZLSSB)
  re:Dextrins vs Fermentables (Charles Burns)
  adjusting beer color (Ahenckler)
  Re: First Wort Hopping ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  Re:Negra Modelo & "Modelo Especial" ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Re: Eisbock, Blue Moon (Hal Buttermore)
  Whitbread Goldings anyone? (Sean Mick)
  Heat Exchange RIMS (The Holders)
  2nd Dayton Beerfest (Mark G Schmitt)
  Best Temperature Controller??? ("Mark Rose")
  Extract Potential from Rice Syrup Solids (BernardCh)
  Strange brew results/air pump for moving brew ("L. Rossi")
  Gott vs Igloo - a Big THANKYOU ("Myles Parker")
  RE: Corona Grain Mill ("Jeff Hailey")
  Homebrew Digest #2478 (August 06 (eric fouch)
  Tiny Bubbles, Cloudy and Dry, Poor efficiency ("David R. Burley")
  carbonation and dicetyl ("John Penn")
  sparging  with RO water (kathy)
  Grapefruit, DWC (Graham Barron)


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:50:25 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Easy Off Labels

In HBD 2477, Red Wheeler <fwheeler at mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us> wrote regarding
gluing labels with milk:

>Whoever had the idea it is very good.

Aw, shucks, thanks.  Actually, I do think I may have been the first to
suggest this both here and on r.c.b., although it wasn't an original idea.
I read of it many years ago in the instruction pamphlet that came with a
French liqueur concentrate.

>As easy as that was, I seldom put labels on anymore. Putting labels on
>several cases got old fast so I now write a number on the cap to identify
>the batch. It isn't fancy but it is quick and a lot less work.

I have never labeled beer except gift bottles and the cp bottled longneck
quarts I take to club meetings.  As a matter of fact, I seldom bottle at
all any more, preferring to keg, but when I did, I also just used a marker
on the lid.  I do still bottle a few batches, though, and have recently
begun to use a slick cap-labeling method shown to me by fellow Ann Arbor
Brewers' Guild (third place club of the year) member Ed Lustenader.

Using Excel, Ed made up a template to print 6 lines on 3/4" round removable
labels (Avery 05408, Stock 1212, $5-$7/1000 labels).  These labels come in
mini-sheets of 4x7 labels/sheet, so they don't run through printers by
themselves.  Ed's method is to print up a test on 8-1/2"x11" paper, hold a
sheet of labels up against this test to make sure the positioning is
correct (I had to adjust the space between columns for my system), then
tape the labels in position over the test sheet and run it through.  Voila,
28 really nice looking little labels to stick on the caps.  Good enough
looking with enough information to make them useful for gifts, and better
than a number, which always sent me to my log to find out just which beer
it was, especially with old samples.  I use bold size 7 or 8 font for three
lines for the beer name and tiny font (4.5?) for the other lines - my name,
OG, etc.  Ed even used some symbols for some labels.  You need only type in
each line once and it duplicates it on all 28 positions.

I will be glad to send this Excel 4.0 file as an attached file to anyone
who wants it.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:55:36 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hop Analysis,

Brewsters:

Andy Walsh says:

>Colin Green of the reknowned Hop Research Unit, Wye College, Kent, claim=
s
>that most, if not all of the US (and Australian) Tettnang crop appears t=
o
>be Fuggle

Hmm, so my Tettnang is Fuggle

>(ie. UK Saaz =3D US Saaz =3D German Tettnanger)!

The three "Saaz"  I planted didn't make it or I would have had  Tettnang

>GLC analysis of essential oils is a well established method for
determining
>the variety of a hop sample. The most likely explanation of the results =
is
>that mistakes were made many years ago during the propagation and
selection
>of the varieties.

What about the Hallertauer, Mt. Hood, Fuggle and East Kent Goldings I als=
o
have planted??

 I assume the Mt. Hood is really Mt. Hood, having more recent origins in
the US.

I wonder what Bud thinks of this when their Saaz is Tettnang and their
Tettnang is Fuggle? =


This may explain why US Tettnang is reputed to taste just like the German=

variety.  It is.

Maybe this also explains why Saaz grown in the US just doesn't have the =

same taste as Saaz grown in Czechoslovakia since it is Tettanger.  Those
crafty Czechs!  =

- ----------------------------------------------
C. D. Pritchard says regarding my suggestion to send yeast into dormancy =
by
storing them under sterile water rather than starving them to death on a
slant or getting a slant contaminated with "old socks" bacteria:

A *RHETORICAL* question : Would water canned in a boiling water be OK or
(like starter wort) does one need to can water with a pressure cooker?  <=
g>
 =


Well, I guess it would depend on the pH.  {8^)
- ------------------------------------------------- =

Jim Graham ask about 5 liter minkegs as a source of homebrewed beer on ta=
p
since he has a small fridge.  In my transition from decades of bottling t=
o
Cornies I visited the 5l minikeg stopover.  The carbonator came to my
attention too late, but since then I have tried it.  My conclusion?

Don't bother with the minikegs if you can use a Cornie as the cost isn't
much different, but if you do, buy the minikeg tap with the metal (not
plastic) tap as my HB dealer has said he had LOTS of problems with return=
s
and eventually sent his supply back. My experience is that the minikeg
delivers all foam, although I may have had it over carbonated, since I
tried to naturally carbonate it and lager in it.  On my first attempt I
bulged out a couple of mini-kegs.  I am led to believe that the Carbonato=
r
(haven't tried it) will fit on a minikeg tap in place of the metal cylind=
er
holder.  If so, then you can use a CO2 tank to carbonate the keg and
deliver the contents. Much better!

I suggest you start with the carbonator and force carbonate some plastic
bottles by filling them with beer, squeezing them to remove all the air a=
nd
liquid squirts out of the carbonator.  Apply the flushed pressure hose to=

the carbonator and pressurize until the bottle is hard.  You may have to
repeat this 2 or three times to get it properly carbonated. Unless you us=
e
Ken Schwartz' idea (HBD #?) of making a number of bottles with air valves=

attached to the bottle lid, you can have quite an investment in Carbonato=
rs
since you can only do one bottle at a time.  =


Also, think about a keg at room temperature with a cold box attached.  Wh=
en
you want beer, just put ice in the cold box and the beer is cooled as it
comes to the tap. Not the most convenient for a beer or two, but maybe th=
e
carbonator could step in there.

Look into the 3 gallon cornies as an alternative to the Mini-kegs.  They
may fit into your fridge.  OTOH what's wrong with a full sized beer fridg=
e
in the bedroom?  Sounds convenient to me.   Think outside the dots!
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Kienle wants to color some beer he has planned to use at a wedding
party.  Rather than try to color it with patent black malt ( which I
believe won't really do much to the color - or shouldn't and could absorb=

flavors as it falls to the bottom) try brewing a small sample of really
dark beer from  chocolate malt or use a dark extract.  Blend this with th=
e
beer to color it. You could also brew a small amount of beer with an
unflavored brewers caramel. Or use the caramel straight as long as it
doesn't have too many fermentables and might re-start the fermentation. =

Another suggestion - leave well enough alone.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Spinelli asks for clarification of the effect of temperature on pH. =

Temperature does affect the pH of the wort.  Near saccharification M&BS
says that a 5.5 pH *wort* ( not water) at RT drops to 5.2 at 150F.  This =
is
presumably because this is a highly buffered system with lots of equilibr=
ia
involved in the wort.   I always take a sample of wort and cool it in a
metal spoon and then take the pH with paper.  With a pH meter it is
important that the temperature of the sample be at the calibration
temperature as this meter is very sensitive to temperatures, or have a
temperature compensated pH meter.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:01:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Barry Finley <bfinley at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: Not trying to step on toes!

Lately there has been a tremendous amount of discussion on Blue Moon and 
wether or not it is true to style. I have never tried Blue Moon but have
had Celis White (not a bad beer at all). OK, the real reason for my post
is not to tell everyone what style of beer I like, rather to ask if it is
too much trouble if all of the self appointed beer gurus that lurk on the
HBD not criticize other peoples choices in the type (brand) of beer they
like to drink and like to try and clone.  I'm not trying to step on toes
here, but I think that it is important for all of us to respect our fellow
HBDers. If I can remember right, and I might be wrong, but I think the
original post on Blue Moon was a recipe request. And I don't think that
the recipe was ever given. Maybe no one has one for Blue Moon. Anyway, I
just wish that when someone requests a recipe on a clone of a brand of
beer that is not considered by the masses to be a good beer that instead
of saying something like "Blue moon is a crappy beer, it's not to style
and it's made by Coors!" That something like this would be posted, "I
don't have a clone for Blue Moon, but I do have a recipe for a beer that
is considered to be a great beer of the same style". Hey, I personally
like to drink beers made by Coors. I'm not saying that they are great, but
when there are no really good beers available in my area, that's what I
have to drink, therefore I've grown accustomed to it.

Now, I would like to request a clone recipe of Celis White. Since I do
like this beer and I can't find it within a 50 mile radius of my house,
I'm forced to drink mega-brewery beer. Can someone please post an extract
based clone.  By the way, I was not singling out any one particular person
in my above gripe session, it just seems to me that the majority of the
more advanced brewers have always tried to impress people by telling them
that they have crappy tastes in beer. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats the
impression that I get. Once again, I'm not tring to step on toes, I just
think that I (along with others) would enjoy the HBD and the great hobby
of brewing more if I didn't feel like I was being put down everytime I
made a comment or suggestion. 
 *************************
    Barry C. Finley  
  College of Education
The University of Georgia
*************************
Thanks in advance to anyone that can help me with the Celis White recipe.


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:07:09 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.co.za>
Subject: Hop back

Hi 

Could someone please point me to a web site that shows how to build a 
hop back ?  I looked at the past HBD issues but could not find what I 
was looking for. Our web access has some problems lately.

Thanks a lot

Braam Greyling    I.C. Design Engineer
Azona(Pty)Ltd     
tel +27 12 6641910  fax +27 12 6641393

You can taste a good beer with one sip, 
but it is better to make thoroughly sure.

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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:20:29 -0400
From: LNUSTRUK.CZLSSB at gmeds.com
Subject: BATF Brewing Equipment


Just when we got rid of that boring botulism thread, this monotonous BATF
thread surfaces. I did some "extensive" research (drank homebrew) and concluded:

You can brew anything you like as long as you don't belong to a non-BATF
approved religion. If you are of the latter, they have a tendency to help you
out with your boil if you know what I'm sayin'.

I think I hear those black helicopters coming now..................

Chuck Carman


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 08:39 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re:Dextrins vs Fermentables

Jeff says/asks in hbd2477:
Reading the HBD the last few days has got me thinking about
the sugars present in wort.  First, John Carsten has had 
a bit of trouble with the body in his porter.  Consensus
seems to be that he let it mash at too low of a temperature,
creating too many fermentable sugars.  

[ME} My earlier response to this question did say that the low mash temp was 
the cause of the problem, but not because of too many fermentables. The temp 
that was cited was a protein rest temperature that will destroy MMW 
proteins, the ones that provide body and head. It wasn't a question of 
richness (dextrins) but one of body (proteins). The mash schedule broke down 
the MMW proteins to the point there was none left to support the beer.

[Jeff] Second, Ken Schwartz
created his own specialty malts at home.  He states that, 
according to Randy Mosher, the process favors the creation
of dextrins over ferementables.  Also, I have read that 
crystal malt and cara-pils malt contain a high proportion of
dextrins.  Some brewers use these malts, especially cara-
pils, to add body to their beer <snip>

[ME] I think you are confusing body and richness, an easy confusion to make. 
The dextrins from cara-pils contribute richness, the carmelized malts 
sweetness. Neither will do much for body since the proteins are all gone. 
So, we use carapils for richness but keep the mash temp in the mid-low 150's 
to maintain a higher level of body. This is why temperature control is so 
critical in mashing. Being off by 2 or 3 degrees F can drastically alter the 
final product.
     
[Jeff]All of this leads me to a question.  What keeps the 
beta-amalysases from breaking down the dextrins provided by
speciality malts?

[ME]That's a questin for the biologists.

[JEFF]  Or, maybe the question should be, why add
cara-pils when you can just raise your mash temperature to
contribute to a more dextrinous wort?

[ME]As stated above we need to produce MMW proteins for body. But that's not 
stopping you from mashing at 150-153 for a while and then raising to 158F 
which many of us do, depending on the style we're going for and most 
definitely depending on the malt (how well modified it might be).

Charley (wishing for better temperature control and NOT worrying about 
botulism) in N. Cal


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:21:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ahenckler at aol.com
Subject: adjusting beer color

Rob Kienle wrote:

 ...My choices thus far: take an ounce of Black Patent malt (which does not
require mashing and adds no unnecessary fermentables) and steep it in a
couple cups of hot water, strain and boil the water, cool and add it to
the carboys (there are two of them for this 10 gallon batch). Or, boil
the water beforehand, add the malt to it as it cools, strain and add to
the carboys. 

  Why not use something like food coloring (beer is colored on a yellow and
red pigment scheme) or porterine.  Porterine is used by large breweries to
color light beers dark or adjust the color of finished beers.  It is based on
black malt and caramel color and I don't think its fermentable.  Never having
used it, I can't point you to a source, but a quick web search or a call to a
homebrew shop should put you in touch with a supplier.

On the other hand, (and I know this will be said by others) you could just
serve it as is.  In most party/reception settings, noone will notice that
your beer is off by a few SRM.

 - Andrew

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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:34:52 +0200
From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at ping.at>
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping

In HBD#2476 Brian Moore wrote:

> There's been a few mentions of "first wort hopping" lately.    I'm
> not familiar with this method, but it sounds like you put hops in
> right as you are starting to collect sparge runnings from the mash. 
> Does anyone know what this adds to the beer?  I'm guessing just
> bitterness since the following boil would tend to drive off all the
> flavor and aroma (similar to a bittering hop addition).  When
> calculating IBU's should I just treat the FWH like an early (1 hr)
> hop addition?  I'm putting together a 100 IBU IPA recipe and I'd
> hate to end up with only 95 or so!

First wort hoppings increase oxidation of hop oils and thus
(see below) provide hop aroma. Only use the best aroma hops
available to you.

If you usually add hops for bittering after hot break
formation (eg 15 minutes after beginning of the boil) you
should expect utilization to be somewhat lower with first
wort hopping -due to adsorption (I would assume 90% of
calculated utilization).

***

Hop oils (Terpenes and Sesquiterpenes) are virtually
insoluble in wort and beer. Although it's possible to
keep considerably amounts in the wort, most of the oils
are absorbed by yeast and cold break formation -due to
their lipophilic character.

Oxidation of hop oils produces epoxides and alcohols,

eg: Humulen --> Humulenepoxid, Humulenol, Humulol

 -Components, soluble in wort and beer, being capable
of developing hop aroma.

(L.Narziss, "Abriss der Bierbrauerei", ISBN 3-432-84136-1)

***

That's a reason, why many brewers use to age their aroma hops
to some extent -and it's a good reason to try first wort hopping.
The idea is to keep the oxidation rate higher than the evaporation
rate of the oils. Oxidation products are volatile, too, but seem
to be more stable than the oils.

 -Consider that soluble compounds will be spread throughout the
whole boil volume, whereas insoluble oils will tend to float to
the surface, where they are easier expelled by the steam. Apart
from this assumption -it's known that even low volatile, insoluble
aromatic oils are easily stripped by steam distillation. -Maybe
a physicist can give us a better founded explanation.

On the other hand, these things may explain, why many homebrewers
are not pleased with their aroma when using pure bittering varieties,
even with the long boils for bittering. Don't expect that unwanted
flavor and aroma components are expelled the same way as in
big brother's Sudwerk. -I mean: look at the action in a big kettle of
a commercial brewery and then look what's happening in your kettle.
I feel that in small scale brewing the ratio between oxidation and
evaporation tends towards oxidation -that means stabilizing hop 
aromas and flavors (the good *and* the bad ones).

 -So the quality of my beers has improved clearly since I'm using
Hallertauer Perle for basic bittering. I get a much cleaner bitter
and aroma. Pellets 45 are available with 10% alpha.
What do I need more?

But back to the topic!
Thinking about top quality finishing and first wort aroma hops:
If you ever visit Germany, don't miss the hop growing region of
Tettnang. The hop growers there are enthusiasts and pioneers
in natural / biological farming.

 ... and yes, I am associated with them: I *love* their hops!

CHEERS &
Sehr zum Wohle!

Hubert in Salzburg / Austria

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ing. Hubert Hanghofer <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/

Gambrinus was a homebrewer

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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 14:37:56 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: Re:Negra Modelo & "Modelo Especial"

Todd Wilson wrote:

> From: "Wilson, Todd (MCI)" <Todd.W.Wilson at mci.com>
> Subject: "Negra" Modelo
> 
> Thanks to all who responded to my question of how to classify "Negra"
> Modelo.  Not only did I learn how to correctly spell the beer but
> everyone who responded indicated that it is a Vienna style lager and
> everyone recommended George and Laurie Fix's book on lagers as a good
> place to start.  I have always been an ale brewer but I will pick up
> this book and try my hand at the recommended "Graf-style" lager.
> 
> Thanks also to Charlie Marino who offered the following historical
> background on Vienna style beers/brewers "Most of the Viennese brewers
> migrated to Mexico after the collapse of the Ottoman empire."  Certainly
> an the most interesting beer in a squat brown bottle!
> 
> Thanks
> Todd
> 


Todd,

I too enjoy this beer tremendously but when I saw your post I wanted
to step in and clear things up, at least according to the information
I have and my experience with "BOTH" these fine brews.

Yes, the info you got regarding the "Vienna Lager" was correct, however
that particular brew is called "Modelo Especial" made in Mexico City.
There is another beer from the same brewery called "Negra Modelo" but
according to my resources (Beer Lover's Guide by Bob Klein) this beer
is classified as a dark ale. I have had both brews if my memory serves
me correctly, and they are both outstanding. I don't remember the Negra
tasting like an ale, but then again, I drank alot of tequila too back in
those days!!

Anyway, just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in!

Marc


- ----------------------------------------------
Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com

Enjoy your life, it's the only one you have!
is because he wags his tail, not his tongue!


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Date: 05 Aug 97 15:30:11 EDT
From: Hal Buttermore <71672.1766 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Eisbock, Blue Moon

The comments by Graham Barron on Blue Moon are thought provoking indeed. I agree
with Spencer that it is a decent sort of beer, but then Graham's scenario is
entirley plausible.  Perhaps it appeals to my Orwellian/conspiracy theory side!
Regarding Eisbock, kudos to those that have investigated the issue quite
thoroughly.  On a lighter note, I however, like to think along the lines
popularized by the giant sport shoe company, Just Brew It!  I mean, one does
occaisionally drive over the speed limit, right? ;-)

Brewfully, Hal B.


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:15:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: Whitbread Goldings anyone?

Has anyone in the collective used imported Whitbread Goldings whole hops in
their brews? If so,
how does it compare with EKGs (plugs,pellets, whole)? with Yakima Goldings?
BC Kent? I have the technical data/history from Morris Hanbury, but I want
some personal experiences. I bought a pound for my store but I want to know
more details for my customers. I can't wait to brew with it!!

Thanks for any feedback, private email is fine, I can post results if there
seems to be interest or enough subjective data.

Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew



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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 16:40:26 -0700
From: The Holders <zymie at m4.sprynet.com>
Subject: Heat Exchange RIMS

In Digest# 2475, Darrell talks about his heat exchange RIMS idea.

Darrell,

Your idea sounds like it would work, but I don't see the need for a
second pump. In building IGOR, my RIMS, I've used the heat exchange
principle. I have the heat exchange coil, and the heating element in the
Hot Liquor Tank (HLT), which is governed by a standard water heater
thermostat for general over temp purposes, and programming to boost heat
for the mash steps. The Mash temp is controlled by a PID controller
which cycles the wort either through the pickup coil, or around it.

The largest obstacle I've encountered in heating the mash is maintaining
the heat in the HLT while boosting the mash temp simultaneously. I've
overcome this by cycling the heat on at each temp step. I found if you
don't do this, you'll have a large lag in the heat response, so keep
that in mind.

As long as you insulate your HLT, you shouldn't be using much more
energy to maintain the water temp and boost the mash than you would just
boosting the mash.

Good luck!

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach Homebrewers
Long Beach CA
http://andinator.com/zymico (My brewing gadgets)
http://andinator.com/zymico/rims.html (IGOR, my automated RIMS)


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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:48:55 -0700
From: draft97 at juno.com (Mark G Schmitt)
Subject: 2nd Dayton Beerfest

The Dayton Regional Amateur Fermentation Technologists (DRAFT) announce
the 2nd Dayton Beerfest homebrew competition.  This AHA/BJCP sanctioned
event will take place on Saturday September 13th in Dayton Ohio.  For
more information please see our club's website at
http://hbd.org/users/draft or email me.
Thanks,
Mark Schmitt
DRAFT97 at juno.com

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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:16:18 -0400
From: "Mark Rose" <mrose at visi.net>
Subject: Best Temperature Controller???

Dear Brewing Collective:

I recently acquired a pristine 17 cubic foot Sears upright freezer for a
paltry $50 (from a friend who just wanted to get rid of it).  Now I just
need a temperature controller, and I'll be lagerin!   After looking at the
controllers from Hoptech and Brewers Resource, I can't see large differences
except for the price ($54 and $99 respectively).  Are those the only ones
out there?  Which one is best, in your opinion?  Any tips for using the
freezer and 1st time lagering?

This forum has been nothing but helpful and informative.  Thank You to all
that share your experience and wisdom so freely.  This week I'll post a
compilation of inputs I received from the pumpkin and chili beer questions.
Thanks!

Mark Rose
Hampton, VA



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Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:22:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: BernardCh at aol.com
Subject: Extract Potential from Rice Syrup Solids

My HB shop sells rice syrup solids.  What is the SG contribution of this
fermentable per pound.

Thanks in advance.

Chuck
BernardCh at aol.com
Music City Brewers Homebrew Club
Nashville, TN - Music City USA

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:54:32 -0700
From: "L. Rossi" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: Strange brew results/air pump for moving brew

Hello all,
	I have a brew in my secondary awaiting bottling that came out completely
different than I had intended it to.  I am hoping that the collective may
have some insights on how or why it is not what I had planned.  
	The beer does not fit any particular style that I can recall but was
formulated to what I would have considered a fine ale.  It was a cross
between an esb, an ipa and maybe a brown ale.
	I used the following ingredients for a 25L batch.
3.5Kg (7.5lbs) of Pale ale malt
1.6Kg (3.5lb) Brewmaker Mild Ale hopped kit
500g (~1lb) Hollander light DME
50g (~2oz) chocolate malt
250g (~1/2lb) crystal 20L
28g  (1oz) Fuggles 5.5% (boil 60 min.)
40g (~1.4oz) Goldings 4.9% (15 min.)
	I expected a Starting SG of 1.062, and a FG of 1.016 using Wyeast 1098. 
(mash efficiency  at  77%) IBU's were predicted as being about 45. And the
color about 16 - 18.
	I had some problems with the mashing where I had too much flour in my
crush which may have been the only problem in the end and I have since
learned to strain a sample to test for conversion with a coffee filter. 
Anyway I mashed for 2.5 hours because I got positive results on every
starch test I did.  I lautered anyway.
  	During this extended mash the temp floated between 150F and 165F due to
problems which I had at the 45 minute mark.  I had done my first starch
test and put the mash into my oven again to await conversion.  At this time
the temp shot to 165 when I turned the heat up too much.  (The strike temp
had cooled from 154 to 150 in the first 45 minutes.)  I thought I had
killed off the enzymes at 165F and chilled the mash with ice.   It had only
been at this temp for a very short time so I thought I could let it rest
longer to try to get the stuff to convert.  No change...
	At the end of the lauter I added the extracts and boiled the hops.  SG was
indeed 1.062 in a 25L batch.
	The fermentation temp was 68F for the first day and 71 the next.  The
third day was cooler in my house and the temp was back at 67/68F.  It was a
flash ferment!  The Krausen (sp?) was huge!  I racked to a secondary on day
four because there was very little Krausen (sp?) left on the brew.  The SG
at that time was 1.010!
	Ten days later now, (no activity in the airlock since day four)... I
checked the SG today.  It is 1.006!  I can only suspect contamination but
the stuff actually tastes okay!  I'll bottle it tomorrow but I wonder if
there is a contamination will it cause conditioning and taste problems
later?  The alc/vol. is about 7% and I hope to be able to drink it even
though it isn't what I wanted.
	I have read that Hollander DME was high in dextrin's and I used it to add
sweetness and body to the beer but I didn't get this result at all.  
	Can anyone give me some idea as to what exactly made the gravity go so low
based on my screwed up mash?  Or was it a fermentation temp. problem?  Or
perhaps infection that I cannot taste now?  Or maybe there is a lot of corn
sugar in Brewmaker kits?  Ohhh, the possibilities are confusing me...
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
	On moving beer using an aquarium pump....  A warning was posted by C.D.
Pritchard where he said that it may rupture a carboy if the pressure was
too great or you had a weakened carboy.
	I just want to say that these pumps are designed primarily for volume and
not pressure.  I tested a good strong aquarium pump and it barely pumps air
when the air hose is under 34 inches of water.  I was told by an engineer
that this would be about 1.3 psi.  Hardly enough to blow a carboy IMHO.  A
safety device can easily be added to the air line with a five cent air line
tee and a ten cent air line clamp.  A bleeder line is attached to the tee
in the main line.  The clamp is used to close off the bleeder until beer
starts to flow through the racking tube and allowing any excess pressure to
bleed off.  This seems easier than the other good but somewhat complex idea
suggested by Mr. Prichard.
	As was noted in his in HBD 2477 It only takes about .5 psi to lift wort
one foot in a racking cane or hose.   (I hope I got that part right).  Can
I assume than that 1 psi will lift beer two feet?  I'm not sure that I
would use this method to move finished beer but the idea of using it on
wort or Sulfited wine does have merit.

Thanks again everyone.
Layne Rossi
Campbell River, BC
wetpetz at oberon.ark.com

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:07:01 +1000
From: "Myles Parker" <Milo4T at bigpond.com>
Subject: Gott vs Igloo - a Big THANKYOU

	To the brewing brethren,
	I would like to thank all those very kind people who were prepared to help
me with getting a 10 Gallon Gott cooler (by buying & posting to me in OZ).
So many people chased up postage costs for me with both US post and UPS -
to you my heartfelt thanks. 
	I have in my posession (as of last Saturday) a said 10 Gallon Rubbermaid
cooler. I finally got onto the distributor again in Melbourne last week who
arranged with a camping store here in Canberra, to get a cooler in for me
for OZ$109. (This is the same camping store that quoted me OZ$130 for the
same thing when I was first chasing the coolers up about a month ago - go
figure)!
	This was not as cheap as I had hoped but is certainly cheaper than OZ$125
from ESB in Sydney, or OZ$130 from a camping store in Melbourne, so I count
my lucky stars.
	I can't wait to make the necessary modifications (tap, copper tubing) and
get mashing!
	Once again, thanks to all.
		Myles Parker,
	     Canberra Brewers Club,
	   Cold and freezing in Canberra.	

 


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Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 09:17:15 EDT
From: "Jeff Hailey" <jeff_hailey at ccmail.ray.com>
Subject: RE: Corona Grain Mill

     Dave Miller in his Homebrewing Guide has a good section on 
     adjusting the Corona.  Based off of memory, here are the steps.
     
     1) Tighten the adjustment screw until it starts to push the plate
     against the body of the mill.
     
     2) Back off 1/2 turn on adjustment screw.
     
     3) Crush 1 cup malt.
     
     4) Check crushed malt.  If you have lot's of intact malt, 
     tighten 1/2 turn.  If you have very few intact husks and lots of
     bits broken into bits smaller than 1/2, loosen 1/2 turn.
     
     5) Repeat steps 3 & 4 until you have a good crush (usually by 
     three iterations).  If you have trouble getting a purfect crush, 
     shoot for having too coarse of a crush, thereby keeping more husks 
     intact.
     
     6) Mark the adjustment screw for future reference, and tighten the
     wingnut.
     
     Miller states that the adjustment should work for barley and barley 
     malt, but wheat and rye will probably require a tighter adjustment.
     
     I think that these proceedures are close to Miller's reccommendation; 
     I just read these instructions Sunday -- I also purchased a Corona 
     mill over the weekend, but haven't had the chance to take it for a 
     test drive yet.
     
     Miller also stressed cleaning the mill.  Clean the grease off with 
     soap and water before you mill any grain.  Re-lubericate the mill (I 
     forgot what he said to use that was safe).  Clean and dry the mill 
     after every use.
     
     Cheers!
     Jeff Hailey
     Brewing in Tulsa, OK


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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:58:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: eric fouch <S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021.efouch%Steelcase-Inc at MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject: Homebrew Digest #2478 (August 06


Date: Wednesday, 6 August 1997 8:50am ET
To: STC012.HOMEBRE3 at STC010.SNADS
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001
Subject: Homebrew Digest #2478 (August 06
In-Reply-To: The letter of Wednesday, 6 August 1997 3:01am ET
 
HBD-
 
Does any body have a recipie for JW Dundee Honey Brown or something close?
I was recently asked for same, and short of asking here, I was going to
suggest using a nut brown ale recipie and adding 1-2# of your favorite honey,
and/or prime with honey.
 
Also, I got no response to my question as follows:
 
 
After bottling a batch, I lazily bottled up the dregs from the
secondary and capped the bottle and put in the 'fridge.  Several months later,
I got out the bottle (lots of trub) and poured it into a quart mason jar,
added sterilized water, and shook it up.  After letting it settle for about an
hour (it was a Widmer Bros. Hefewiezen culture) I decanted the top layer
into a quart starter.  I figured the dead, bad yeast would settle out, and the
good live yeast would suspend longer.  The starter took off well, smelled
good, and made a good batch of beer.
I realize I could be selecting low floc yeast, but this strain is relatively
low floc anyway.
Would this be a good technique for separating live from dead yeast in a stored
yeast cake (washed or bottled)?
recently stored some washed yeast (three rinses with sterilized water)
in Pedialyte bottles (4ozs) by dissolving two Tbs of Malto Dextrin in a cup of
water, boiling, cooling, and putting this solution on top of the washed yeast
cakes in the 4 oz bottles.  I am hoping the increased concentration of the
storage fluid will help maintain yeast cell integrity.  Nome sayn?
 
Could somebody please validate me by responding :^{ ?
 
I now return you to the discussions of legallized beer concentration.
 
Eric Fouch
efouch at steelcase.com
The Bent Dick YactoBrewery
Kentwood MI


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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:02:15 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Tiny Bubbles, Cloudy and Dry, Poor efficiency

Brewsters:

On the subject of a fine bead on the head:

Charley in Northern CA says:

>While I agree with Al that C02 is C02 ),.... I =

>too have experienced beer with big bubbles and beer with lots of little =

>bubbles. It seems... to me that the finer bubbles =

>come from beers that I have mashed at higher temperatures, and therefore=
 =

>contain higher ratios of dextrins. Could this be what causes the small v=
s =

>big bubbles?

DeClerk would have us believe that while CO2 is CO2, it doesn't always
behave the same when introduced in different ways. Protein complexes,
surface tension, time and temperature history etc all affect the size of
the bubbles in the head. Most of all it is the protein content which
grossly controls the compactness and life of a CO2- only  head although I=
'm
sure all manner of soluble organic compounds ( including dextrins)
contribute to the surface tension of the beer..  Force carbonation, while=

it may eventually produce the same quality head, does require some time
after carbonation to make the best head.  I also believe that the presenc=
e
of yeast particles contribute to the fineness of the bead by providing
nuclei for the CO2. Thus, the oft-observed better head with naturally
carbonated beers.

Charley has also noticed that his beer dries out on aging and becomes
cloudier and headless.  Sounds like an infection, especially the cloudine=
ss
and the "drier" taste due to acidity. The loss of head could be due to
bacteria chewing up the proteins.   A lager yeast  will dry out your beer=

by chewing up the dextrins, but it should get clearer not cloudier and th=
e
head is usually more compact on the lagers aged in the fridge for a month=
=2E =

Check your sanitation procedures. Are you aging your beer in the fridge o=
r
at room temperature?  Try bottling some fresh beer and store some in the
fridge and some at ambient.  Compare them.
- --------------------------------------------
Richard Creighton is unable to get a satisfactory reading on his OG despi=
te
apparently good beers being produced. How about your FG?   Check your
hydrometer by making sure it reads 1.000 for water at 60F or whatever the=

calibration temperature of the hydrometer is.  Also - and more  likely-
your thermometer is off.  Check it in boiling water and ice water and
various blends to get a calibration curve. Low yields sometimes come from=

poor milling, but usually you get somewhere in the area of 70% of
theoretical.
- ---------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: 6 Aug 1997 09:16:27 -0400
From: "John Penn" <john_penn at spacemail.jhuapl.edu>
Subject: carbonation and dicetyl

                       Subject:                               Time:8:49 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          carbonation and dicetyl                Date:8/6/97

    In HBD 2478, the question of dicetyl using 1728 Wyeast came up.  I tried
1728 and I even racked to a secondary deliberately dropping most of the batch
in order to aerate and increase dicetyl.  Fermentation was about 70-75F and
the recipe was a scotch ale.  The result was not much dicetyl.  There were
some previous suggestions to getting dicetyl in previous HBDs, you might try a
search.  But I don't think 1728 alone will do it.  I think there is a London
Ale yeast that might produce more dicetyl than 1728.  AlK or some of you other
more experienced brewers might have some good advice.

Carbonation has appeared in two recent HBDs and always seems to pop up. 
Here's an incomplete list of things to look out for, several of which I have
personally experienced.

1) Don't use 3/4 cup of priming sugar--weigh it!  Humidity and settling of the
sugar has a vast effect on the quantity of sugar you are getting.  3/4 cup is
supposed to be 4 oz but I often find 4oz closer to 1 cup.   For those newbies
trying recipes using 3/4 cup for priming and comparing it to their previous
kit recipes--those kits usually have 5oz!

2) Stir the bottling bucket.  A little priming sugar boiled in a small amount
of water will probably have a very high gravity and won't mix in well with
your average beer leading to uneven carbonation among the bottles.  The first
few bottles will be overcarbonated and the last few undercarbonated.

3) If you lager at extremely cold temperatures or let the beer sit a really
long time (a month+?), the yeast may have pooped out or dropped out of the
wort.  You do need to make sure that you siphon some yeast into your bottling
bucket.

4) Heavier beers generally take longer to carbonate.  Most yeasts poop out
around 8% so it should take longer for those beers to rejuvenate during
carbonation.

5) Carbonation does not equal head retention.  Do you feel bubbles on your
tongue while drinking it?  If you don't get a lot of foam but you do see a lot
of bubbles in your glass, then the problem is not carbonation but head
retention.

6) Carbonation is temperature dependent.  A warmer beer will not hold as much
CO2 and will seem more carbonated than a cold beer which has a higher CO2
saturation level.  What temperature was that "flat" beer served at?

7) The homebrew article in the recent "Barley Corn" had a few mistakes.  Use
1-1/4 cup of dry malt to carbonate--and it may take longer to carbonate than
sugar.  And 1 cup of honey is about twice as much as you should use--expect
LOTS of CARBONATION!

I hope these hints are helpful and I'm sure I missed a few.  Good luck.
   John Penn


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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:16:37 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: sparging  with RO water

Previous water analysis recommended RO water in a 4:1 ratio with my
local (Lansing, MI) public water supply for lagers wanting soft water. 
Thanks again AJ.

I tried to purchase some calcium chloride to add to the mash to provide
essential calcium, but didn't connect with a local source.

Instead of blending tap water with RO, I used the tap water to mash with
as it would have the Calcium needed even tho the carbonate level would
be higher then I wanted with my lager style if it were used in the full
recipe.

I sparged with the RO water so the carbonate level in the blend would be
low to provide the right hop flavor.

Is this staging of first using tap water in the mash and RO water later
in the sparge, an appropiate staging?

Thanks as usual for your comments.  jim booth,


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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:53:56 -0500
From: Graham Barron <gbarron at cq.com>
Subject: Grapefruit, DWC

Nathan L. Kanous II wrote:
>Subject: Grapefruit smell
>
>Rene' asked about the presence of a "rotten grapefruit" smell in a
>recent batch.  We need more info regarding techniques and ingredients,
>but I can offer some information regarding the grapefruit taste.  It
>seems to me that I have heard (and have in fact tasted) a distinct
>grapefruit taste when using Chinook hops.  I have seen brewpubs even
>include this "grapefruit" taste in the descriptions of their beers. 
>Now, you haven't given us any information regarding your ingredients,
>but I thought I would just pass this on as one simple possibility.

Nathan makes good use of the KISS idea, and he may well be right.  I've
always found Cascades have the strongest grapefruit aroma and flavor.

Keith Busby <kbusby at ou.edu> wrote:
>Subject: De Wolf-Cosyns
>
>A homebrew supplier I talked with recently has stopped selling DWC malt on
>the grounds that its quality has become inconsistent recently. Is this a
>widespread view?

I've always found DWC to be of the highest quality and regularly of high
quality, at that.  DWC seemed always to make the best Belgians and German
lagers.




Graham L. Barron
New Media
Congressional Quarterly
Washington, D.C.
(202) 887-8684

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