---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Urgent Retraction & Question (Loren Crow)
  Sankey fermenters (Red Wheeler)
  re: 122F Rest - It wasn't me, honest (Charles Burns)
  chambord (Mench5)
  Guinness and Red Nectar (Sheena McGrath)
  Airstones in Kegs (Gary Knull)
  (no subject) ("Frank E. Kalcic")
  Australian HBD'er Help Needed (Brian Travis)
  cleaning al brewpot? (mark russell)
  Re:  Airstones in kegs ("Brian Wurst")
  Strawberries. (Jeff Foley)
  Growlers? (Richard Stueven)
  p-cook'ed wort, 122F/132F rest (Steve Alexander)
  dishwasher converted to bottlewasher (Mench5)
  RE: Hop ripeness (Miguel de Salas)
  Help, Is this brew dead? (Mark Witherspoon)
  Re: RE: Sankey fermenters ("Keith Royster")
  PH meter or ColorPhast papers ? (Ian Smith)
  When to add crystal and other specialty malts (Ian Smith)
  Lidless in Laredo ("Dave Draper")
  Re: stuck RIM ("Keith Royster")
  What To Do With Ornamental Home Grown Hops (Scott Abene)
  Disposable beer filters (Ian Smith)
  5th Annual Peach Stae Brewoff Correction (egross)
  Wanted: used 15-20 gallon wood cask (Mike Spinelli)
  Too nutty? (Doug Moyer)
  A Warning (RANDY ERICKSON)
  Jethro's on to better things (Curt Schroeder)
  BJCP Exam Studyguide and 122F Protein Rest (Charles Burns)
  First Post, 40/60/70 question ("David J. Vanness")
  =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:=A0_Pub_Draught_Guiness?= ("Steven Morle-Green")
  hosp again (Jim Liddil)
  Pub Draught Follow Up (John Goldthwaite)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:23:02 -0500
From: crowld at rapidramp.net (Loren Crow)
Subject: Urgent Retraction & Question

I sincerely apologize to all for my erroneous quip about chiles, chilis,
Chile, and so forth. I should obviously have checked a dictionary before
letting the wind out of my other end. It turns out, as several people
pointed out to me, that, although "chili" has been the more acceptable
American spelling of the pepper (as I was taught), the Spanish spelling
"chile" is gaining acceptance as the dominant spelling. Lo siento mucho!

Now to something more palatible: Yesterday someone asked wither a very long
mash (like overnight) would do anything really bad. I'm interested in this,
too, but haven't seen any responses. Is there any reason, other than
conservation of time, that one must stop the mash as soon as
saccharification is over?

Thanks for your help, all. And sorry to be an ass.

Loren Crow
crowld at rapidramp.net



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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:51:32 -0400
From: Red Wheeler <fwheeler at mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us>
Subject: Sankey fermenters

An additional comment on open fermenting using a converted keg.

I agree with Keith Royster's love of using a 1/2 barrel keg as a fermenter.
After using it for the last three batches, it is great. The only negatives
are having to move the beer to a secondary and not being able to watch the
mixing, bubbling commotion of the wort. 

I am writing to add what IMHO is a better way to construct the drain. I put
a 10 1/2  stopper in the hole from the inside. I jam a sixteen inch piece of
plastic tubing into the stopper. All this fits together very tightly and has
not leaked. The tubing extends through one of the handle openings and is
held closed with a clamp and a rubber plug. Moving the beer to a secondary
is as easy as connecting another piece of tubing to the first one using a
short piece of copper tubing and opening the clamp. So far the stopper
sticks up high enough that draining has not been a problem. At first I had
the tubing about an inch out of the stopper until I found that the drub
didn't get that high, YMMV. Clean up is as easy as Keith describes. The
hardest part of cleaning up is getting the stopper out of that hole. The
beer tends to seat that stopper so firmly that it is difficult to get it out.

Brew on! The more I learn the more I want to brew another style and another
and another. So many beers so little time!

Red Wheeler
Brewing in Blue Bell, PA


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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 16:31 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re: 122F Rest - It wasn't me, honest

Charles Rich, Beer charmer from Seattle says in HBD#2490:

I don't know who popularized the rest at 122-125F (I suspect it was another
of my namesakes) but it's been repeated so many times without reflection
that it's recklessly taken as gospel.  I'm saying that it's not.
=======
It wasn't me, honest. With all my posts, screwed up experiments, you name 
it, I never even attempted a 122F rest. All my experiments were 130F and 
above. I finally reached a successful decoction (of pale ale malt) at 135F, 
but it was a pain in the neck and didn't gain the taste I was after. Shortly 
thereafter I made my first successful decoction with a Pilsener malt (DWC), 
used 140F (fell to 135 over 20 minutes) and then decocted and raised to 
158F. The beer came out nearly perfect.

I too feel that a lot of weight has been given to lots of old information 
regarding how to process malts. The data is 50+ years old and lots of things 
have occured in brewing and malting technology in that time to make all of 
this "advice" very suspect. All the scientific jazz is still true, but does 
it matter that much anymore with the level of modification in modern malts? 
Not to most of us.

It is so simple to do single infusion mashing with today's malts that nearly 
anyone can make very good and excellent beers by just paying attention to 
what they're doing and executing good sanitation. I do it all the time and 
I'm not a scientist, biologist or engineer (just a computer geek).

I agree that too much of the detailed discussions of what we should do with 
various malts can be very scary to newbies. But I'm not sure what to do 
about it since I enjoy these discussions so much myself.

Ok, my necks stuck out there real far now, go ahead, chop it off.

Charley (constructing a modified son of fermentation chiller this weekend) 
in N.Cal

- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Burns, Director, Information Systems
Elk Grove Unified School District
cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us, http://www.egusd.k12.ca.us
916-686-7710 (voice), 916-686-4451 (fax)


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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:20:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mench5 at aol.com
Subject: chambord

i recall in the winners section of zymurgy a few years back a recipe using
chambord.
this is a rasberry liqoeur using little french rasberries that is  expensive
but seems a safe and easy wasy to make a rasberry beer . has anyone out in
the collective tried this? if so how much should i use in each bottle? any
other particulars would be helpful as well.
tia 
personal e-mail is fine
tom moench
mench5 at aol.com

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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:54:43 -0700
From: Sheena McGrath <sheena at gte.net>
Subject: Guinness and Red Nectar

Greetings!
I've been a lurker for a while, and I have just two points to make.
First, not only do draft widgets make beer bland and gassy, but they can
only be used if the beer is almost ice-cold. Otherwise you repaint your
kitchen - brown. As a CAMRA member and Irish Guinness fan, I urge you
not to buy these awful things.
Second, has anyone ever successfully cultured yeast from a bottle of Red
Nectar? I want to know if it's worth keeping that last half inch of
beer.
Thanks,
Sheena McGrath

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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:38:15 -0600
From: Gary Knull <gknull at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Airstones in Kegs

Guy asks about using an airstone to carbonate kegged beer. I have used "The
Stone" in all five of my serving kegs for a year or so and would never go
back to the sloshing method of carbonating.  I bought five Firestone aka
Spartanburg keg liquid tubes, (they are straight rather than bent like the
Corny tubes), cut four inches off the ends and attached The Stone to each
tube with a short piece of plastic tubing and a couple small SS hose clamps.
The Stone/hose assembly has to be clamped to the dip tube after inserting
the dip tube part way into the gas fitting hole of the keg.  This is the
only tricky part. Have the clamp tightened loosely on the hose so you can
finish tightening it with one hand through the lid hole once you push it
over the end of the dip tube.  I filter or syphon the finished beer into the
serving keg and put it into my serving fridge and connect the gas and liquid
fittings and forget about it for a couple days. At normal serving pressure
the CO2 has carbonated the beer nicely by then, never overcarbonated, and
it's ready to use.

Gary Knull
Edmonton, Alberta


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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 07:06:11 -0700
From: "Frank E. Kalcic" <fkalcic at flash.net>
Subject: (no subject)

Is anyone aware of a lager yeast that has low flocculation
characteristics that would be suitable for use as the carbonation yeast
in a hefe weizen?  My "problem" is that my kegged hefe weizen comes out
crystal clear, as the lager yeasts I have used in the past precipitate
during the lager period.

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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:07:48 -0400
From: Brian Travis <tarvus at mindspring.com>
Subject: Australian HBD'er Help Needed

My 21 year old son returned last night from a 9 month visit to Australia.
While there, he developed a taste for a beer called "Victoria Bitter" which
he has requested we try and brew together on my RIMS system.  I have never
tasted this beer and have no idea how to begin formulating an all grain
recipe for it.  Could any of you HBDers from down under offer a description
of this beer and perhaps some help with a suggested grain bill, mashing
schedule, hops, yeast etc?  Any help would be greatly appreciated!

TIA!
Brian Travis
Brian Travis
tarvus at atl.mindspring.com


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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:02:06 +0600
From: mark russell <mrussell at vt.edu>
Subject: cleaning al brewpot?

hi all,

i just picked up a 5 gal aluminum pot at a yardsale...the price was right:
$3 :)  after scrubbing it for an hour i started to think there might be an
easier way to render this vile cauldron clean.  i think it has been sitting
in a garage for quite a while...its not pretty.  lots of dents on the bottom
which are hard to clean, and it has some "rings" of stain on the inside that
are rather persistent as well.  is there a standard cleaning solution that
will put the boots to aluminum?

almost bought the old green metal coleman cooler too...but the stains in
that thing were of questionable origin....  with this addition my brewery
would have exceeded 50% yardsale origin.  now if i can only find some
kegging stuff...

personal email fine

TIA,

mark
mrussell at vt.edu


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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:10:30 -0500
From: "Brian Wurst" <brian at catamaran.netwave.net>
Subject: Re:  Airstones in kegs

Guy Mason <guy at adra.com> writes:

> I'd like to hear from anyone out there that uses an airstone to 
> carbonate their kegged beer.  How do you set it up? Is it 
>worth the money?   Easy to use? etc.

I purchased "The Stone" and adapted it to my system in the following
manner:

I drilled a hole (slightly larger in diameter than a diptube) in a keg lid
and had a six inch piece of diptube TIG welded into the hole with half
above and half below the lid.  On the "keg exterior" side of that diptube I
attached a gas hose with a male flare nut fitting on the end, which hooks
up to the gas manifold.  On the "keg interior" side I slid about 2 inches
of 
vinyl tubing on the diptube and stuck another diptube bent in the 
approximate shape of an "L" onto the vinyl tubing.  On the short end of 
that "L" I attached another short segment of vinyl tubing and stuck 
"The Stone" on the end of that.

What I ended up with is a lid that I can move from keg to keg that
carbonates.  Cost was US$28 for "The Stone", pennies for the vinyl tubing,
and US$12 for the welding.  Well worth the money....I carbonate in less
than 24 hours and (subjectively) have very good control over the final
carbonation levels.  By far more precise than the "crank up the gas and 
shake the keg vigorously" method I had been using.

Set up this way it is very easy to use.  I just siphon from the fermenter
to the keg, slide the carbonation lid in, seal and crank on the gas to the
stone.  I ramp the gas pressure up slowly, raising the pressure a couple 
of pounds every few hours.  Because the stone is not on the keg's gas 
inlet fitting, I can counterpressure transfer the beer to another keg
without
running the "makeup pressure" thru the stone.
Alternatively, I can just vent the keg to atmospheric pressure via the
keg's gas fitting, remove the carbonation lid and replace with a regular
lid
and quickly repressurize.  Either way works well.

Brian Wurst (brian at netwave.net)  Lombard, Illinois
"Nature has formed you, desire has trained you, fortune has preserved you
for this insanity." -Cicero


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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 11:25:50 -0700
From: hmbrewer at juno.com (Jeff Foley)
Subject: Strawberries.

I know some of this info was already probably passed on, but my computer
crashed and I lost all data. SO I am going to ask the collective again. I
am looking for any recipes and info using strawberries in beer. Any help
would be greatly appreciated.
Jeff Foley
Sierra Vista, AZ
Thunder Mountain Brewery (One can wish can't they).

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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:30:50 -1000
From: Richard Stueven <gak at molokaibrewing.com>
Subject: Growlers?

Aloha!

Any tips on whence I can mail-order a dozen or so half-gallon
jugs?  They're handier than my corny kegs when it comes to
dragging them to parties...

have fun
gak (people gotta have a taste)

- -- 
Richard Stueven    gak at beerismylife.com    http://www.aloha.net/~gak
The Moloka`i Brewing Company               http://molokaibrewing.com
Beer Is My Life!                             http://beerismylife.com
Breweries On The Web      http://www.aloha.net/~gak/beer/brewwww.htm

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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 03:16:43 +0000
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: p-cook'ed wort, 122F/132F rest

Charles Rich and I have apparently been performing a parallel brewing
experiment w/o consultation.

Pressure cooked wort ...
I step mashed a lager (heresy - no decoction) but did follow Charlie
Scandrett's suggestion to pressure cook wort in order to form maillard
products.  I pressure cooked the first 4 gallons of runnings from a
12gal marzen brew session at about 125C for 25minutes.  I must
re-enforce everything that Charles Rich said about presure cooker
safety.  At elevated temperatures the protein flocs like mad and could
clog the release mechanism.  Flocs as big as your head, OK well really
about the size of a walnut - the biggest I've ever seen.   The upper
inside of the canner had definite stalactites of protein and bottom of
the canner was covered with about 1/2inch (1.7cm) of protein 'egg drop
soup' glop.  The mash was equal parts Durst Pils and Munich malt.  You
should, as CharlesR said, be familiar with your canners pressure release
safety features before attempting this experiment.  As the pot heated to
max temp the pressure valve blowoff had an aroma very reminiscent of the
valine/leucine/isoleucine+sugar maillard experiment that I reported here
earlier this year-a sort of nutty, malty aroma.  The final wort was
darkened and had clearer caramal & malty flavor components IMO.  It'll
be several month before this still fermenting beer is ready for a
comparative test.  So far I like it.

122F/132F mash rest ...
If you're like me, we're talkin' 50C vs 55.5C for a mash rest. 

>[...] Highly modified malts need no lower temperature
>rests unless around 95-100F or 132-135F, if even.  You're lucky to conserve
>the protein you're left with.

I must agree with Charles Rich here that there are probably no valuable
enzymatic temperature optima for highly kilned pale-ale malt below
136F/58C where endocarboxypeptidases and other residual proteinases come
into play.  The same is NOT true for lager/pils malts which will retain
phytases, phosphatases, low-temp beta-glucanases, peptidases and the
nucleosidases.  These can be used in special circumstances, but again I
must agree with CharlesR that modern highly modified lager/pils malts
don't really need an enzymatic rest below 55C/132F.
 
I've been getting excellent clarity, excellent head and good body using
a 40C(104F) mash-in and a fast boost to 58C(136F) followed by a later
boost to the 65-70C range when brewing with pale ale and pils base
malts.  A rest in the low 50Cs (say 122F) is unnecessary and probably
undesireable unless there is concern over FAN levels. Consider the
recent questions of making a Blue_Moon/Celis clone.  This style should
include, perhaps 50% unmalted wheat (P.Celis likes hard winter wheat)
which would certainly reduce FAN levels substantially w/o a peptidase
rest around 50C. A hydrolysing (wetting mash-in) at lower temperatures,
as suggested by G.Fix in his 40-60-70C mash schedule may have a positive
effect on conversion rates and efficiencies, but not an important
enzymatic effect at 40C.

CharlesR goes on to say ...
>I wish I had occasion to use it, I believe I'd know what I was doing. 
[...]
>I don't know who popularized the rest at 122-125F (I suspect it was another
>of my namesakes) but it's been repeated so many times without reflection
>that it's recklessly taken as gospel.  I'm saying that it's not.

Dave Miller and Greg Noonans early books recommend a 122F rest.  G.Fix's
book notes a 50C rest as useful for undermodified malts, but as we know
these are almost extinct as a malt style.  Charlie Scandrett, if I
recall correctly, suggested avoiding 120-131F-ish range, as do such
luminaries as L.Narziss.

I just scanned the recent Brewing Techniques 'Market Guide' for
moderately modified malts.  Oddly, only British maltsters seem to
produce approximations to undermodified malts.  'Crisp Finest Pilsner
Lager' at SNR=39%, and 'Brewing Products LTD, Scotmalt 2' at SNR=36.8%. 
Scotmalt_2 is described as, "a medium-modified, low protein ale malt
 ..." while the Crisp product is clearly targetted at lagers.  Anyone
know where to get HB sized quantities of these ?

Steve Alexander



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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:33:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mench5 at aol.com
Subject: dishwasher converted to bottlewasher

the urge to compete has started me bottling again and as the drudgery of
cleaning bottles sets in i let my mind wander.
the b-brite=dishwasher detergent thread makes me think of converting a
dishwasher to a bottle washer. 
the design in my head uses very small irrigation tubing ty-wrapped to each
prong so each bottle would have its own jet washer 
possibly 2 or 3 water distros rotating for a pulsing effect and added water
pressure
curiosity would force me to install a plexiglass window in the door
the height of the top "tray" would probably have to be adjusted to allow
bottles to fit

sounds like alot of work initially but the rewards would be great

this is a project i will likely start this winter and any logical input is
welcome 

tia
tom moench

"we can do this my way or my way pissed off"
my response to a know it all stagehand

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:24:52 +1000
From: Miguel de Salas <mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Hop ripeness

Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> wrote:

>A number of people have described ripe (ready to harvest) hops as having a
>"papery" feel. I am confused as to what this is like - they have always felt
>"papery" to me even when they were very green. Can anyone out there give me a
>better description of what to look for in ripe hops? Is there a more
>scientific method of determining the time to pick the hops such as humidity
>(water content) etc ? 

When hops are ripe, they feel a lot drier than before. They feel a lot
lighter and springy. Ripe hops have plump, round and clear lupulin glands,
which should not look dusty. The aroma is well developed, and the colour
turns lighter green to yellow.
If you are not sure that your hops are ripe, then they arent. When they
ripen, you'll know. You should not pick your hops unripe, and if in doubt,
can leave them in the plant till thay just start to turn brown at the tips.
Remember that slightly overripe hops are preferable to underripe hops, which
will have little or no aroma or bitterness.
Miguel.


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 07:55:00 -0400
From: bveq97 at nestle.he.boeing.com (Mark Witherspoon)
Subject: Help, Is this brew dead?

HELP!!  I left a (very) full carboy of my best brew
out to long..  I found it the other day behind
the clothes rack in my laundry room.  I pulled
the carboy cap off and found that it had a
mold on top floating.

Is this brew dead?  Can it be saved by just scooping
out and siphoning the first inch or so off the top?

The brew still smells wonderful...

Mark Witherspoon

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:49:24 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: Re: RE: Sankey fermenters

I previously stated (regarding sankeys as fermenters)...

> >Turn the sankey upside down so the stem hole is pointing down, and
> >cut the upper part off (what was the bottom) using a 4" disc grinder
> >so that a standard stock pot lid will cover the hole. Now, shove a
> >#11 drilled rubber stopper up into the stem hole good and tight.  I
> >had to use a hammer to get it in good.  Then cut a 2' piece of 3/8"

To which John Schnupp replied...

> Why not just put the stopper in from the inside of the fermenter/
> former keg, or is this what you're doing.  This way you'd never have
> to worry about the stopper coming out (it's tapered).  

Oh, I considered that.  The problem is that there is a lip on the 
inside of the stem hole preventing the #11 stopper from entering from 
that side.  Perhaps a smaller stopper would fit, but I had already 
purchased the #11 and didn't have time to make another trip to the 
brewstore.  I may try a smaller stopper at another time, but for now 
the current setup works just fine and does not leak at all.

> Another suggestion is to use a lid that is clear. A piece of plexi-
> glass should work nicely.  There would never be any problems taking
> a peek inside. 

Good point.  However, I am using the advice of others using this
(semi-) open fermenting method that it is safe and even advisable to
skim the dirty yeast that is scrubbed to the surface using a
sanitised slotted spoon.  Thus I am briefly opening the lid anyway.
Reportedly, this "dirty" yeast contains a lot of hop resins and other
things that, when they settle back into the beer, can create a
slightly harsh bitter taste. I don't know how much truth there is 
to this, but I don't think it hurts either.

The only problem with these open fermenters (I may have already 
mentioned this) is that the positive pressure created by the escaping 
CO2 during active fermentation, which helps prevent nasties from 
getting in under the lid, is brief so you want to transfer to a 
closed secondary as soon as the head collapses. After pitching with 
the yeast sediment from a previous 5 gallon batch, my first 10 gallon
batch in this sankey fermenter was done and transferred to the
secondary in just 3 days. 

Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina - 
"Where if the kudzu don't gitcha, the Baptists will!"


email: keith at ays.net
http://www.ays.net/brewmasters -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://www.ays.net/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)
http://www.ays.net/movingbrews -pumps and accessories for advanced homebrewers

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:34:00 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: PH meter or ColorPhast papers ?

Should I invest in a PH meter or just use the ColorPhast papers ? Does 
anyone have any advise/experience ?

Cheers
Ian Smith
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 08:32:23 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: When to add crystal and other specialty malts

Question for the "all grainers" out there:

Should I be adding crystal, munich and other specialty malts during the
regular mash or is it better to add them during mash out ? It seems to me
that if they are added to the mash their starch would be converted to sugars
by the base malt's enzymes. Will the flavor stay behind or be lost ? OTOH if
I add at mashout then starch conversion will not take place and the wort will
end up with unconverted starch. Is this good or bad ? I am confused. What is
the HBD concensus ? 

Cheers
Ian Smith
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:17:11 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Lidless in Laredo

Dear Friends,

Steve Scott asks whether brewpots should have the lid on or off and 
why.  OK, so I don't live in Laredo, but I wanted that alliterative 
allusion to a recent popular film.  

First off, it can depend on whether one is doing a small-volume 
boil or not.  Because I go all-grain, my preference is to have the 
lid off during most of the process, so that my wort volume will 
diminish from the original amount collected after sparging to the 
desired amount.  For those who will eventually add water to their 
wort to top it up, this is of no concern.  However, I do keep the lid 
on while bringing the wort to the boil to minimize heat loss.  Once 
it gets going, though, I take it off and leave it off for the rest of 
the process.  My second reason is that I have an immersion chiller, 
and it sticks up out of the top of the pot.  I could either a) cut 
slots in the lid or b) mount the chiller on the lid's underside, or 
some combination of these, but I am just plain too lazy to do that.

The other reason that I go lidless it that, if a pot is filled to
nearly full, It Will Boil Over If Fully Covered.  I learned that from
all-too-painful experience, never to be repeated.  I know that there
is a risk of airborne nasties landing on my wort surface, but the
only real danger is after chilling is underway, because if it's
boiling, the nasties die quickly.  So I try to chill as quickly as I
can (I'm usually done in about 20 minutes) and just don't worry about
it, trusting that my sanitation and yeast-pitching practices will win
the eternal battle between yeast and the other critters. So far I've
gotten away with it-- I never claim that what works for me will work
for all.

Cheers,

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
 ...when you think about it, everything makes sense.
    ---Ginger Wotring


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:14:37 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: Re: stuck RIM

Hans Geittmann <hans at sven-tech.com> has problems with a stuck mash
in his RIMS...

> I couldn't get any flow through my grain bed.  Eventually, it
> turned out ok, but only after 30 minutes of panic, 30 minutes of
> depression, and a few pints of homebrew to cheer me up...  

I've been there twice.  It can be a very frustrating and stressfull
time =(

> So, I'm wondering what can cause a recirculating mash to stick. The
> specifics- converted keg RIMS (cross between Keith Royster's and CD
> Pritchard'ss design), strike temperature of 160F.  Grain bill (10
> gallon batch): 10# Munich malt, 6# Klages 2 row, 1# Aromatic, 1#
> dark Caramunich.  One of quart of water in the mash tun per pound
> of grain on top of about a gallon of water to bring the level in
> the tun up to the false bottom. 

Underletting the false bottom is good.  I'm no expert masher, but
1qt per 1lb seems a hair thick.  I usually use about 1.3qts per lb.

> List of possible concerns I've come up with: Mash too thick. 

Maybe, but not that much. I doubt it caused the stuck mash, but I
wouldn't completely discount it either.

> Never used Munich malt before, could this be the culprit? 

Again, I'm no grain expert, but I doubt it. However, I've only used
it in small amounts before, never as the bulk of the grain bill.

> Added grist too fast (I dumped it in pretty fast this time) 

Could be.  I usually underlet the false bottom, plus add a gallon or 
so of water.  Then I mix in just enough grain to mix well with that 
water.  Then I add more water before I add more grain.  This way the 
grain never gets too thick causing you to have to thin it back down 
to "normal".

> Pump running while adding grist

This also is probably not a good thing.  Combined with dumping your
grain in too fast, it could be that the pump sucked too hard while
it was thick causing the grain bed to become compacted and even
lodging some kernels in the holes of your false bottom (which might
explain why stirring wouldn't fix it).  Basically, you might have
negated all benefits of underletting as well as compounded the
problem with the pump.

I have a ball valve directly under my mash tun that I close during 
dough-in.  Once my mash is completely doughed in and the consistancy 
is good, then I open this valve letting it drain into the pump 
before I begin recirculation.

> I tried stirring the mash, still stuck.  

Of the two stuck mashes I've had in my RIMS, the first had to be dug
out and was never fixed. I ended up doing my first and only impromtu
decoction mash. I also started out with a very thick mash while
attempting a low temp protein rest.  The second stuck mash was 
quickly fixed by stirring the grain bed back up.

Hope this helps!

Keith Royster - keith at ays.net  <<< *NEW* address!
 at your.service - http://www.ays.net
 Web Services - Design & Hosting starts  at  $60/yr!
  Voice & Fax - (704) 662-9125
   Mooresville/Charlotte, NC

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:15:25 -0500
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: What To Do With Ornamental Home Grown Hops

Hi Everybody, 

I picked about 6 pounds of homegrown hops this weekend and will be picking
the rest this week. 

I was wondering... Since they are strictly ornamental... 

What should I do with them???? 

Suggestions welcome.

 -Scott

P.S. No, I am in not practical joke mode (YEA RIGHT!) this is a serious
inquiry. ;)
################################################################ 
#                     ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT                        # 
#                Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>                 # 
# http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page) # 
#                           OR                                 # 
#  http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat/ (Brew-Rat-Chat) # 
#                                                              # 
#"The More I Learn About Beer... The More I don't need The AHA"# 
################################################################ 


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:49:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: Disposable beer filters

I am thinking of buying a 5 micron house filter to filter my beer. It 
seems to be a huge PITA to store in sanitary conditions, backflush after 
each use etc. etc. It sure would be neat if I could just use a disposable 
coffee filter or something each time so I wouldnt have to worry about 
backflushing, infections etc. Anyone out there know of a cheapo 
disposable paper/plastic filter ? OTOH maybe I should consider using a 
ceramic or sintered stainless steel filter - any 
opinions/experiences/comments would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Ian Smith
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:06:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: egross at emory.edu
Subject: 5th Annual Peach Stae Brewoff Correction


 Sorry, but the 5th Annual Peach Stae Brewoff is Saturday, September 20th
at John Harvard's Brewhouse in Atlanta. A BJCP exam will be given on the
21st, Sunday. Apparently in my initial  post I stated the PSBO date as
Saturday the 21st.Please contact me if you want judge registration or
entry forms, or to sign up to steward.Thanx, Lee Gross, Coordinator


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 12:23:25 est
From: paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: Wanted: used 15-20 gallon wood cask

HBDers,

Anybody know where I might find a used 15-20 gallon wood cask?
It doesn't have to be useable as a storage vessel.  I'd like it for use as a fac
ade to slip over my 3 gallon corny and attach my galley pump beer engine on the
top of the cask.

TIA
Mike Spinelli
Cherry Hill NJ


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:12:31 -0400
From: Doug Moyer <moyer-de at salem.ge.com>
Subject: Too nutty?

Folks,
	For my first all-grain brew, I am considering the following grain bill.
Any comments?

9  lbs. Munich
3  lbs. Pale ale
 .5 lbs. Flaked barley
 .5 lbs. Special B

1.5 oz. Willamette, 60 min
 .5  oz. Willamette, 5 min

Doug Moyer
Big Lick Brewing Collective
"Big Lick - nutty flavor with a big head."

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:20:04 -0700
From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at MID.ORG>
Subject: A Warning

Greetings HBDers:

Recently we've warned each other against botulism from questionable
canning practices, BATF raids from brewing eisbocks, propane and
carbon monoxide poisoning from cooking indoors, brain damage from
watching megabrewery advertising, and pain and suffering from loaning
personal property to an ungrateful employer, but I haven't seen this one
in a while:

We work with all sort of dangerous things in our breweries, so please
WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHEN WORKING AROUND CHEMICALS!

I splashed some cleaning solution into my eyes Friday during a
two-minute cleanup job, and ended up spending two hours in emergency
getting it washed out.  The safety glasses were 10 feet away the whole
time, BTW.

I was using PBW, which is formulated (buffered) to be less dangerous --
the doc said I was using the right stuff, that a true caustic would have
kept on burning with likely permanent damage.  Since many of us use
TSP, bleach, and worse, I thought it was time for a reminder.

Cheers -- Lucky in Modesto

Randy Erickson
Modesto, California
randye at mid.org

Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers
c/o Barley & Wine, Ceres, CA
www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/1970/



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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:10:00 -0600
From: Curt Schroeder <cschroed at ball.com>
Subject: Jethro's on to better things

I apologize for the lack of brewing related material in this post.  I
know there is interest in Jethro's recent situation therefore I felt the
need to post.

I talked to Jethro this weekend.  He is fine.  He has retrieved 99% of
his personal property.  He knew there would be problems when he departed
and we should be amazed that he stayed as long as he did.  Other's have
mentioned what a great gentleman Rob is.  Ditto to that.  As well, he is
a champion, which IMO drew alot of jealousy from the general manager who
then inflicted alot of grief to Rob.

Rob's plans: Finish an article that he is writing for BT, continue being
a part of this forum, decide what avenue of brewing to pursue.  He has a
few good contacts in Des Moines and Ames.  He will play Mr. Mom for
awhile while he gets the lay of the land.

Godspeed Jethro!

Cheers,
Curt Schroeder
President, Jethro Gump Appreciation Society, Tribe Division.

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 13:49 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: BJCP Exam Studyguide and 122F Protein Rest

Here's a document that has been revised as of 1996, theoretically with 
current information and being used to train prospective beer judges. I quote 
from page 11 under "malting":

"American and Continental malts are generally less modified.  Continental 
malt is modified only to 50-75%, which retains more of the endosperm for 
fermentability and creates greater nitrogen complexity, but at the price of 
reduced enzyme activity.  American six-row is also modified to between 
50-75%, but the higher protein and nitrogen content of six-row gives greater 
enzyme strength.  Both Continental and American malts require a protein rest 
(122 degrees approx.) to degrade the albuminous proteins into fractions that 
can be both used to promote yeast growth and give good head retention."

So does this mean that my Great Western, Briess and Hugh Baird Pale Ale malt 
can benefit from a 122F protein rest? The entire entry under "Barley" is 
only a couple of pages and they do not state whether they are talking about 
pale malt, lager malt, pilsener malt or pale ale malt in this paragraph.

Or is the studyguide in need of an update? I wonder if we could get a UC 
Davis brewing student to do a study that would give us all current 
information on modifcation levels of all current widely available malts.

Charley (studying to be a judge) in N. Cal (and confounded once again in the 
search for truth)


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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:53:59 -0500
From: "David J. Vanness" <dvanness at students.wisc.edu>
Subject: First Post, 40/60/70 question

Hello everybody,

I am a new subscriber to HBD, and this is my first post.  I have been
homebrewing for 5 years now, and I'm looking forward to being an active
part of HBD.  I've read through archives of HBD and have found the
discussion here to be very informative and respectful -- congratulations to
all of you for being such positive contributors to the art and science of
homebrewing.

Now, a question.  I would like to find early postings and discussions re:
the 40/60/70 mash regime.  I have searched HBD on the brewery website, but
haven't been successful.  In particular, I have heard that the origin of
this particular regime was from an early posting by George Fix.  Is this
true?  Is this posting archived?  Does anyone have any particular comments
regarding the value of each of the rests?

Thanks in advance,
Dave

- ----------------
Dave Vanness, a.b.d.
University of Wisconsin, Dept. of Economics
Madison, Wisconsin  : dvanness at students.wisc.edu

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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:50:22 -0400
From: "Steven Morle-Green" <greenius at sprynet.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:=A0_Pub_Draught_Guiness?=

In HBD #2491, Hal B, answers John Goldthwaite's from #2488 about Guinness
Draught Cans and asks
"Anyone having travelled to Britain care to comment?"

I am English, but am now living in Florida.  When the draught Guinness in
cans became available here, we were in heaven!  It tastes to me, very
similar to what you get on draught in England (or for that matter what you
get on draught in the Irish pubs here).  The Boddingtons likewise.  I
haven't encountered Abbot Ale in cans here yet, but can get it in a local
Irish pub on draught.

All of the imported British beers in bottles (Morlands Old Speckled Hen,
Theakston's Old peculiar, Guinness export, etc.) has tasted horrible and is
almost undrinkable.  I suspect they are exposed to extreme temperatures on
the journey.  It doesn't help that our local shop places its "specialist"
beers in the window exposed to the Florida sun!!!  Back in England most of
the popular bitters are available in draught flow cans, but in general the
bottles are more expensive and taste better.

I have yet to find an American beer that I really like and we don't have
many microbreweries near us, and so apart from the beer I make myself (ESB,
Scottish Ales, etc..), I mainly drink the Guinness Draughtflow  cans.

Then again, what do I know?  I preferred the spoilt Budweiser  to the normal
Budweiser  at the beer school at Busch Gardens and SeaWorld.

- ------------------------------
 Steven W Morle-Green, Greenius Developments
 Developer of Historical Computer War Games
 Email: greenius at sprynet.com
        sgreen at cix.co.uk
        greenius at compuserve.com
 Web:   http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/greenius
- ----------------------------------------------------------




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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:25:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: hosp again

Back in HOMEBREW Digest #2477 Tue 05 August 1997 Andy Walsh mentioned an
article from J. Inst Brew (vol 103, p. 239, 1997)  Various posts and comments
ensued.  I obtained ac opy of this article and have done some research via
phone and e-mail to various individuals.  Some of you may want to review tha
original post as well as the posts from the Haas tech. director.  As a
toxicologist I have a more than passing familiarity with the techniques and
methods mentioned in the article.  This post will be long.

>From the article:
"Chromatograms of essential oils of Tettnanger from Oregon and Washington and
Fuggle from Oregon, from the 1990 crop are shown in Figure 1.  The
chromatograms are almost identical.  Experiences has shown that small
idfferences are present when comparing chromatograms known to be from the same
variety. <clip>  The USA Tettnager and Fuggle samples were clearly from the
smae variety.  Furthermore, each chromatogram was of a composite oil sample
representing several growths of hops.  The closeness of the match of the
chromatograms means that all the varieties in the composite sample were the
same because if more than one variety had been present the match between
chromatograms would not have been as goood.  Clearly either the fuggle or the
Tettnager samples were labelled incorrectly.  Comparisons were made with
chromatogrmas grown at HRI-Wye.  Thse comparisons suggesteed that the Tettnager
Samples were fuggle."

>From the conslcusions:

"All the samples of USA Tettnager appeared to be Fuggle whcih suggests that
much if not all of the crop is labeled wrongly.  It is likely that mistakes
were made during the propogation and slection ofhtis variety and checks to
confirm the variety by chemcial analysis were not made. The aceptance and use
of Fuggle by brewers under a Tettnanger label also brings into question the
true value of fine aroma hops.  Usually Fuggle is not considered to be of the
smae rank as Saaz or Tettnager, but appears to have been accepted as such by
some brewers"

I contacted various peoplevia e-mail and phone and it was suggested that this
was not "news" to them.  I contacted the USDA ARS Hope research nalaysis lab. I
asked the people there point blank.  Is US Tettnager the smae as US Fuggle. 
I was told that indeed this was the case and they had known about it for years. 

Now you might then aks why isn't anything being done about this.  First the Hop
research lab is exactly that.  A research lab, not into enforcing lableing
laws, etc.

So I then call the USDA comodities dept in Oregon.  I was told that as with
most agriculutral products the laws are all desgned and put in place by the
producers.  Self-regualtion.  So then I aksed about hops and varietal labeling.
I was told that in Oregon there are no laws in palce to prevent hop growers and
brokers from calling a variety of hops by any name they choose.  The wheat
growers do have laws in place that prevent growers from selling soft white
wheat as red hard wheat.  Hops producers have no such laws.

>From my conversation with the Hop analysis lab I gathered that little would be
done unless pressure is put on the hop growers and brokers and big brewers to
set the situation straight.  This requires that organizations like the AOB (aha
advisors are you listening?), IBS, magazines like BT and Zymurgy, homebrewers,
and carftbrewers put pressure on the hops growers to institute varietal 
labeling
regulations.  Complain to your homebrew shop owner, send e-mail to the hop
brokers via their web pages (haas and hopunion have pages)  Go to Tinseths Hop
page and from there go to the Oregon Hop commison page and send them e-mail.
Let them know that you think this siutaion needs to be corrected.  And for now
realize that if you buy USA Tettnager you are getting USA Fuggle.  THERE IS NO
SUCH THING AS TETTNANGER GRWON IN THE USA THAT IS DERIVED FROM GERMAN TETTNANGER
HOPS.

Jim


d of returned message


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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:06:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: ir358 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John Goldthwaite)
Subject: Pub Draught Follow Up

I got several responses from some very credible folks and the 
general consensus is that I probably got a clunker. So I'm going
to try some more in the near future. I'll report back after the
strenuous research has been completed. Now this is the kind of
science I enjoy!  I've also got to recant a bit, and say that 
my use of the word lame was a little harsh. Disappointing would
have been a better choice. Lame is when you got to see the 
Allman Brothers and are forced to drink Buttweiper Lite. Now 
that's some awful macro megaschwagg.  Does that stuff even have
enuf malt or hops to qualify as beer? So even a clunker Pub 
Draught  is far far better than mainstream lite. 
For the person who got a stopper stuck in the carboy. There are
several easy strategies listed in the new Zymurgy. If you don't
have access to a copy, email me and I'd be happy to pass 'em
along. Cheers people. Johncat. 

- --
"Gonna drink all day, gonna rock all night,
The law come to getcha if you don't walk right..."[Garcia/Hunter]

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---