HOMEBREW Digest #2494 Thu 28 August 1997
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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of
Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
URL: http://www.oeonline.com
Contents:
Re:Overnight Mash (PickleMan)
Marijuana Beer (Todd Ehlers)
Re: Sparge water considerations for GOTT coolers (Todd Ehlers)
book review wanted (Jeff)
Mash temp at sparge (John Wilkinson)
Re: Mashout in Gott cooler/batch sparge/starters ("Ted Major")
Hoppy Micro Beers? (Brian S Kuhl)
122F hold ("David R. Burley")
Cold break separation (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
Lost stopper (Kevin & Jane Molls)
Re: Overnight mash - summary (John D Elsworth)
Re: brewing with fruit and berries (lance)
Re: Need some help to resolve a Homer..... (lance)
Ballantine India Pale Ale recipe? ("Ted D. Conley")
Re: 40/60/70 question (Fredrik Staahl)
RE:PH meter or ColorPhast papers (Dave Whitman)
Topless brewing (was Lidless in Laredo, was lid on or off) ("Jeff Hailey")
Wheat beer (chsupp)
Nuttiness / Jethro / 122 degrees (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
Unibroue/Brew Disasters/Malts (eric fouch)
Ornamental Hops / safety (Dave Williams)
Re: Chambord/Lager yeast in Weizen/pH strips vs. meter (George De Piro)
Re: Lidless in Laredo (Jay Reeves)
Re: Airstones in kegs (Dion Hollenbeck)
Re: stuck RIM (Dion Hollenbeck)
CaraMalt vs Crystal (KennyEddy)
YeastLab Bavarian (Ken Schramm)
peristaltic pumps (botulism, ATF, 122 or 135, also!) ("Bret Morrow")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:16:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: PickleMan <wrp2 at axe.humboldt.edu>
Subject: Re:Overnight Mash
I have done sour mashes and it usually takes at least 10 hours to get any
noticable souring (don't taste it before boiling or you could get ebola ;)
Sour mashing requires that you also bring down the temp and add more grain
in odrer to provide a environment for bacterial growth. Overnight mashes
are fine, but I'm not sure how it will affect the size of the poly
saccharides in the beer.
PickleMan wrp2 at axe.humboldt.edu
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:29:41 -0500
From: Todd Ehlers <ehlers at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Marijuana Beer
If your interested I reprinted an article and a book review from Southwest
Brewing News on the subject at http://www.onr.com/user/liberty/Beer/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ehlers
Microcomputer Applications Specialist II
Department of Anthropology
The University of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX 78712-1086
email: ehlers at mail.utexas.edu
phone:(512)232-2184
fax: (512)471-6535
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:47:20 -0500
From: Todd Ehlers <ehlers at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Sparge water considerations for GOTT coolers
>Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:20:46 +1000 (EST)
>From: JONATHAN BOVARD <j.bovard at student.qut.edu.au>
>Subject: Sparge water considerations for GOTT coolers
>Any advice from those with GOTTS on any mashing aspect appreciated!!!!
I'd advise trying steam injection. I used a design in Brewing Techniques
(don't have the issue off hand) which basically involved drilling a hole in
the top of a pressure cooker and threading it with pipe thread, then
screwing in a pipe thread to compression fitting and attaching some copper
tubing. Then pinch the end of the copper off and drilled some small holes
in the last few inches. I put a valve inline on the copper tubing, to turn
the steam on and off.
Once the pressure cooker is heated up I just inject the steam directly into
the mash. My roommate and I tend to get about .5 - 1 degree per minute
tempurature rise in a 5 gallon batch.
We then use a five gallon insulated soda-keg for a hot liquor tank--when
the mash temp has been reached and the steam isn't needed for the mash, we
remove the steam line and inject the steam into a full soda-keg, raising it
to sparge water temp. This way we don't need to use the kettle for a hot
liquor tank. When its time to sparge, I just close the keg up and hook it
up to a CO2 line, which gives me an easy way to control the sparge flow
rate using the pressure regulator. Plus the kettle is empty so it all has a
place to go.
(The soda keg is insulated with a jacket made of wet suit material made by
a company called Below Forty. It was a little pricey ($25) but we've been
happy with it. It's obviously equally good at keeping a soda keg cold.)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ehlers
Microcomputer Applications Specialist II
Department of Anthropology
The University of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX 78712-1086
email: ehlers at mail.utexas.edu
phone:(512)232-2184
fax: (512)471-6535
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:40:11 -0400
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: book review wanted
Hi All,
I was recently looking through the ads in the back of the latest Brewing
Techniques and noticed a book from the American Brewers Guild titled
"How to open a brewpub or microbrewery".
Has anyone seen or read this book? Could you provide me with a brief
review? Is this 260 page book worth the $159 (plus $7 S&H) price?
Anyone have a used copy for sale?
Hoppy brewing,
Jeff
==============================================================================
Geoffrey A. McNally Phone: (401) 841-7210 x152
Mechanical Engineer Fax: (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch email: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI 02841-1708
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 12:17:57 CDT
From: jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Mash temp at sparge
There has been some discussion lately of the importance of keeping the
mash temperature high throughout the sparge in order to achieve good
extraction. This makes some sense to me but this past weekend I
inadvertently violated this practice. I use a cylindrical 10 gallon
Igloo for a mash/lauter tun with a Phil's Phalse Bottom. Last weekend
I forgot to replace the protective copper pipe I usually put around the
vinyl tube from the Phalse bottom to the bung. As a result, the
tube got kinked, stopping the runoff. After screwing around for a long
time I finally figured something was wrong in my tun and siphoned off the
liquid and dipped out the grain. After fixing the problem I replaced the
grain and liquid. By this time the grain bed temp had fallen to 120-130F.
My sparge water was still hot but the runoff was not. In spite of all this
I got my usual 75-80 percent extraction rate. Any comments?
John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at imtn.dsccc.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:39:58 -0400
From: "Ted Major"<tmajor at exrhub.exr.com>
Subject: Re: Mashout in Gott cooler/batch sparge/starters
Jonathan Bovard asked about sparge water temps necessary to raise the grain
bed temp. in today's HBD.
I usually drain some of the first runnings, bring them to a boil and add
them back to the cooler for mashout. I've found that with 10 lbs of grain,
pulling 2 gallons to boil will raise the mash temperature to right about
168F from a 150F saccharification rest. I usually get about 75%
efficiency, fwiw.
This weekend I tried a batch sparge, which among other things, seems to
obviate the need for mash out. Draining the first runnings and then adding
near boiling sparge water (I brought it to a boil and then turned off the
heat. I think it was around 180-190F) for a 15-min rest raised the grain
bed temp, which seems like all that is needed for a mash out, even if it
didn't benefit the first runnings. All in all, it seemed much easier than
slowly pouring sparge water quart by quart into the top of the tun for 45
min to an hour, and efficiency was pretty comparable to my usual system,
with 1.058 actual vs 1.060 expected (which is probably less of a difference
than the margin of error of my hydrometer anyway).
I also tried the starter-in-a-carboy method someone (sorry I forgot your
name) asked about last week. I did a 1 quart starter in the bottom of the
carboy I planned to ferment in, shaking vigorously at first and from time
to time as I passed by for the first 12 hrs or so. I pitched 7.5 mL of
Wyeast 1056 slurry saved from the secondary of my last batch. It sure
seemed to produce a much larger volume of yeast sediment than the same size
starter in the 1.5L wine bottle I usually use. I may have misunderstood
the directions, but even after tilting the carboy to let the yeast collect
on one side of the bottom, I seemed to lose a lot when decanting before
siphoning in the wort. Nonetheless, fermentation began fairly quickly,
from pitching at 10pm to kraeusen at 6:30 the next morning when I got up.
Next time I think I'll put the carboy on its side and tilt it so that the
yeast is collected at the shoulder of the carboy rather than the bottom, in
hopes of having more of the yeast end up in my wort.
Waes hael,
Ted Major
Athens, Georgia
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 12:38:00 PDT
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Hoppy Micro Beers?
Chas Writes in part...
Now, I do not object to a hoppy, assertive brew,
but I guess I'm just getting a little bored with brewpub/micro that offer only
this characteristic in their brews. The brewpubs and micros I enjoy the most
are the ones that offer not just the hoppy IPA, Amber, whatever, but use
unique malts/processes/yeasts/adjuncts to offer variety too. I mean, how many
times have you seen the Blonde, Pale, Amber, Porter, Stout taster line-up in
front of you, all screaming hops?...
Yes, I have seen this line up too many times as well; however, it is a rare
occation to drink a micro's pale ale or even their IPA and have enough hop
profile. They have the malt profile, just not enough hops to balance it
properly. I believe they brew this as to apeal to the mass customer base of
beer drinkers afraid of the "bitter beer face".
To all the micro brewers out there... Don't be afraid, it's ok to use hops!
Brian
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:09:26 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: 122F hold
Brewsters:
Charles Rich says about my comment on the 122F (50C) hold :
>Actually I criticise the suggestion that it's a worthwhile rest at all.
I'd
>recommend you obliterate it from your library before children or other
>innocents see it.
Well, Charley, I would like to see the evidence
from which you formed your opinion, since most
of the commercial brewing world, as far as I know,
and all of the authors I know of say that a 122F(50C)
rest is suggested and is practiced.
I know that there have been some comments here
to the effect that malting has changed drastically
recently, I doubt it sincerely and would like to see
some real evidence to that effect.
How about some molecular weight distribution on
protein levels in the various malts to prove your point?
- ---------------
> Frankly, I'm earnestly looking for good malt that's so
>undermodified that a rest like this would be indicated. The closest I'm=
>coming is to have a micro-maltings produce it (not likely soon). Please=
>tell me if you find any.
What are you using for your criteria??
- --------------
Dave Burley said:
>> The biggest danger of a long hold at 122F may be the off
>> flavors produced by excessive yeast growth or
>> contamination from bacteria growth may result from the
>> high amino acid concentration.
Charley Rich said:
>This is a really wild conjecture. Beating the 122F-Rest drum is bad
enough
>but this could upset novice brewers and start a panic. There are other,=
>scarier hazards to brewing with even more substance: like wearing plaid!=
=
>The biggest danger of a long hold at 122F is sorry beer.
Maybe you should try reading some
professional literature instead of =
characterizing my comments as "wild conjecture".
I quote from Malting and Brewing Science
1st ed. p216:
"Mashing for *long* periods at low temperatures
favours proteolysis and produces worts with
levels of formol nitrogen in excess of those
required for adequate yeast growth. << Consequently
either an overgrowth of yeast may occur or a
tendency to contamination by other organisms
in the beer may result. Also beer flavour may be altered.">>
My comment which you characterized
in such a demeaning way almost sounds like a quote from this.
I also direct your attention to M&BS table 8.11 which compares
undermodified (u) malts with well modified (m) malts
and various hold schedules:
=46rom this table 8.11, taking the *difference* in the
% total soluble nitrogen and the % amino nitrogen
in worts( which I believe is an imperfect indication
of the mid-molecular weight protein
since it includes the hot break) yields this table:
Mash process:
T profile u m
122F,152.5 F .586 .596
96,122F,149 .614 .604
154.5 .675 .575
95,122,152.5 .653 .588 =
All were mashed out at 169F
Interestingly the one mash profile which fits your
recommendation of "no 122F hold" has the *least* amount
of mid-molecular weight protein with highly modified malt. =
=46rom Table 8.11, looking at the kg of sludge on boiling (hot break):
T profile u m
122F,152.5 11.5 13.6
95,122,149 13.6 9.9
154.5 26.7 17.5
95,122,152.5 26.9 22.8
The first three processes were decoctions and the last a =
"modified Infusion Process" in which the holds
were achieved with steam coils
In case you weren't clearly
reading it the first time or two I wrote it. A *short*
hold ( 15-20 minutes) at 122F is my recommendation,
followed by a 2 degree rise/min to 135F and a hold
at 135F for 15 minutes ( longer if you wish)
followed by going to saccharification temperature.
I suggest you go back and re-read my earlier comments =
about the fact that most of the protein modification
takes place at the maltsters and most of the
carbohydrate reduction at the brewers.
Looking at the Graph 8.2 in M&BS in which malts
were held At 120F and 150F for a total of three hours.
Permanently Soluble nitrogen as
a % of total nitrogen in the malt shows that
at around zero time the % is 20%, indicating
a well modified malt. As expected,
the %PSN increases over time as more
low molecular weight nitrogen compounds
are formed. About an hour at 150F the curve
flattens out and continues to climb at 120F BUT:
<<Most importantly, up to about one hour =
the 150F hold wort has *more* % p.s.n.
( that is low molecular weight protein and amino acids)
than the 120F hold!>>
Also important is that the amount of total nitrogen
at the 150F hold always *leads* the 120F hold
in total nitrogen based on Figure 8.3.
As I interpret this, the actual low molecular weight
protein content in the wort at any time up to 1 hour hold
will be less at 120F than at 150F.
More to our Home Brew literature - Dr. Terry Foster
suggests a 122F hold in both his books on
Porter and Pale Ale. ( using highly modified British malts)
Having known Terry personally for a couple of decades, I
know he does not make these suggestions lightly.
I believe I have read here that George Fix
recommends a 50C (122F) hold as part of his
recommended temperature profile for mashing. =
Charley Rich says:
>current literature is way beyond that. You might want to reacquaint
>yourself with the literature.
Charley, please provide some current *professional* references.
>I don't know who popularized the rest at 122-125F (I suspect it was
another
>of my namesakes)
Hardly. This mashing profile with a 122F hold =
has been around long before you were born
and has been and still is used by professionals,
as far as I know.
Prove it otherwise.
> but it's been repeated so many times without reflection
>that it's recklessly taken as gospel. =
Charley, I only ask you to prove your point using
real established data and professional literature,
established molecular weight data in the malts, etc.
with which you claim to be familiar. Let us all in on it.
Provide some current references that prove your point
and please do not continue to give us
your unsubstantiated opinion. =
One of your other namesakes, Charley Peterson puts
in some data that says he doesn't even get a head
with 100% wheat. I found this incredible but
then read his description of what he did and I understand.
His decoction, followed by an overnight hold at 122F =
falling to 95F will totally destroy the mid-molecular weight
protein and will not provide any lactic acid as
the phosphatase will be destroyed by the decoction
and 122F. These results do *not* support his contention
that 122F is bad, rather they make the point that
an abnormally long time at 122F is bad,
with which I totally agree. =
For comparison, my 10% wheat beer using my short holds
at 122F and 135F procedure has a thick compact head =
and leaves rings down the glass which stay to the end
(until I wash the glass) as do my pure barley malt beers. =
BTW. Please direct your comments to the facts
and avoid any personal stuff - OK?
I really only want to know the truth not prove
I'm right or wrong and I hope you
are of the same mind.
Keep on brewin'
Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com =
Voice e-mail OK =
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 18:58:08 -0300 (GMT-0300)
From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at ferrari.fing.edu.uy>
Subject: Cold break separation
Dear homebrewers:
I prepared my first all grain batch and used an immersion chiller for the
first time too. As soon as boiling was over, I started to cool the boiling
liquid down. I went to 28C in no longer than 7 minutes. I noticed a big
cold break. I thought that I had succeded in my attempt to separate the
cold break from the liquid, thinking that the trub would precipitate
immediately. However, it did not separate and I decided to siphon the
whole liquid (including the cold break) to the fermenter. I pitched it
immediately and fermentation started about an hour later. It fermented
during two days and stopped. I think I would follow the usual procedure;
rack it to the secondary, priming and bottling in about two weeks
I have a question at this point. Next batch, how can I separate the cold
break from the liquid so as to siphon just clear liquid to the fermenter
and pitch immediately? Should I separate it in the boiling kettle or
should I use some kind of filtration? Would there be any problem with my
wort considering that cold break was included in the fermenting liquid?
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:57:09 +0000
From: Kevin & Jane Molls <chardrsh at win.bright.net>
Subject: Lost stopper
To Mike with the stopper in secondary
Yea, I've been there. Done that. If you don't put the air lock
in the stopper before affixing it to the carboy its fairly easy to do.
I didn't notice any off tastes from the stopper but it really got a
nasty stain.
Getting it out was surpassingly easy. After siphoning, fill 1/3 full of
water and as you are pouring out the water, poke the stopper so you get
it orientated narrow end towards neck then I grabbed it through the hole
with something from the junk drawer.( needle nose, nut pick, wire?)
Hey Mike have you tried this one?-- Breaking one of the handles off
your plastic Red Baron caper on your third bottle? I had to put the vise
grips on the broken side and go around the bottles pulling the handle
and vice grips live a mad man to get a seal. And how bout the one where
the ___________
Kevin
Kevin Molls
chardrsh at win.bright.net
<http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/9433/>
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:45:34 -0400
From: elsworth at connix.com (John D Elsworth)
Subject: Re: Overnight mash - summary
Thanks to Ian Smith and Jacques Bourdouxhe who replied to my earlier
inquiry about the advisability of overnight or extended mashes. Here is a
summary for those interested. The information is from the above and
searches of the hbd annals, particularly notes from David R. Buckley, Todd
Gierman, Russ Gelinas, William Kitch.
Possible advantages: Convenience - could divide your brewing up into 2
spells, which might make it possible to brew on a working day without being
a wreck in the morning. Also there are reports of successfully mashing and
sparging on one day and completing the other steps on the next day.
Possible disadvantages: Grain bed temperature - this will drop (unless it
is maintained by a heat source), so extraction may suffer (unless heat is
applied before sparging). Infection - this is the biggest concern, and
lactobacillus is the main suspect. This bacteria is present in the air and
on grain hulls. In fact, some beers are made by sour mashing (the intended
introduction of a slight sour taste from lactic acid produced by
lactobacillus), and this has been achieved by steeping the grain for about
24 hours at about 100F.
Despite the potential danger of infection, overnight mashes generally seem
to work just fine. This is probably because the times and temperatures
usually used are not sufficient to get a significant infection going. Of
course, once the wort is boiled the organism is dead. Brewers of sour
mashes typically innoculate their beers with a lactobacillus starter in
order to get the desired taste, as a slightly extended mash does not do the
job. While the danger of an infection increases with the duration of mash,
other factors that probably favor infection are brewing in the summer and
using simple infusion mashes that rapidly cool down. The least danger
occurs in winter or with mashing techniques that maintain the mash
temperature near its original value.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:15:13 -0600
From: lance at dlcwest.com
Subject: Re: brewing with fruit and berries
> Hello fellow home brewers. I have some questions concering the use of fruit
> and berries in making beer. My main question is how to sterilize the
> berries before adding them to the wort. I live in an area with abundant
> wild berries and am interesting in making some blue, black, and raspberry
> beers this fall.
>
> thanks in advance for your help and suggestions.
>
> Andy Londo
>
I'm about to try a Raspberry Bavarian Wheat, what we did is collect the fruit
and then juice them using a steam juicer. I'm a little concerned about losing
some aroma because of the steam, but having sampled some of this concentrate
I'm hopeful for a good brew. I've got a good 3 litres of concentrate, I think
that may be too much . . . (from about 3 ice-cream pails of berries, 12
litres).
We'll see.
-Lance
- --
- -----
If I had a neat and nifty saying, it would go here.
mailto:stargazer at dlcwest.com L^3
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:46:32 -0600
From: lance at dlcwest.com
Subject: Re: Need some help to resolve a Homer.....
m.r.p. at ix.netcom.com said:
>
> Has anyone else done this before? (I'm sure I did not buy the only stopper
> not of the correct size in the world).
>
> If so, did the rubber stopper change the beer in any matter (I myself don't
> like Weize much, but the misses does, and I don't think she will like it
> much if it tastes like a condom <G>.
>
> And finally, when I bottle, how can I get the bloody thing out of the
> carboy?
Yes, I've done it. I never noticed any problem with the beer, but it was a
heavy beer, not a Weizen. I got it out with a little bit of trouble, i hefted
the carboy upside down until the stopper had the hole accessible with a coat
hanger. Put coathanger (hooked end) into hole and pull. Takes a bit of time
but it works.
-lance
- --
- -----
If I had a neat and nifty saying, it would go here.
mailto:stargazer at dlcwest.com L^3
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:58:19 -0700
From: "Ted D. Conley" <tedconley at earthlink.net>
Subject: Ballantine India Pale Ale recipe?
Anyone know of a good copy recipe for Ballantine India Pale Ale?
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:29:37 +0100
From: fredriks at abel.math.umu.se (Fredrik Staahl)
Subject: Re: 40/60/70 question
David J. Vanness asks about the 40/60/70 mash schedule. A collection of the
original posts by George Fix can be found at Dave Draper's homepage at
<http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer/fixmash.txt>.
I use a version of this schedule with rests at 40/63/71C. The advantages
are higher extraction because of the 40C rest (or so it seems, I have not
done a side-by-side test or anything) and better control of fermentability
by adjusting the times at 60/70C. I use pale ale malt mostly, and a typical
schedule would be:
thick mash in at 40C, rest 20 min
infuse with boiling water to 63C, rest 30 min
heat to 71C (I mash in a kettle on the stove), rest 45 min
heat to 77-78C, mash out for 10-20 min (while preparing the lauter tun).
If I want a drier/sweeter finish I increase/decrease the time spent at 63C.
I think its important to minimize the time spent between 40 and 60/63C, to
avoid too much breakdown of proteins.
/Fredrik
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Fredrik St{\aa}hl Tel: int + 46 90 786 6027
Math. Dept. Fax: int + 46 90 786 5222
University of Ume{\aa} E-mail: fredriks at abel.math.umu.se
S-90187 Ume{\aa}, SWEDEN WWW: http://abel.math.umu.se/~fredriks
On tap: Paddingtons Bitter
*** Nemo saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit ***
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:52:46 -0500
From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: RE:PH meter or ColorPhast papers
In HBD#2493, Ian Smith asks:
>Should I invest in a PH meter or just use the ColorPhast papers ? Does
>anyone have any advise/experience ?
I'm a chemist. At work I use a $500 pH meter, but brewing at home I use
ColorpHast strips. Unless you have an urgent need for a new gadget, I'd
encourage you to stick with good quality multi-indicator strips like
ColorpHast.
While you can find cheap ($50-100) pH meters for sale, my experience is
that they will break after about 6 months, and aren't all that accurate. A
decent meter will cost $200 minimum. To get accurate readings out of it,
you need to calibrate against 2 standard buffers each day you want to use
it, scrupulously clean the electrode after each use, store the electrode
immersed in saturated KCl between uses, and expect to replace the electrode
every year or so. For most people, it just isn't worth the bother and expense.
ColorpHast strips are cheap, and once you're used to using them, accurate
to +/- 0.5 pH units. The multiple indicator zones make them easy to read.
Avoid cheaper strips or papers that use a single indicator; these are much
less accurate and much harder to read.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 08:31:06 EDT
From: "Jeff Hailey" <jeff_hailey at ccmail.ray.com>
Subject: Topless brewing (was Lidless in Laredo, was lid on or off)
Steve Scott asked wether or not he should use a lid during the boil.
Dave in Dallas replied that he does not, but stated that using a
lid would result in less heat loss.
The reason to leave the lid off, as I understand it, is to allow
various unwanted volatile compounds to vent to the atmosphere. The
compound that comes to mind is DMS -- which supposedly tastes like
cooked corn. If you leave the lid on, this stuff can't escape and
you end up with cooked-corn beer.
OK, being a liberal-conservative, I'm going to take middle ground.
I boil with the lid partially on. The reason I use a lid at all is,
as Dave stated, less heat loss. The electric stove in my apartment
can barely boil 5 gallons of wort; by keeping the lid partially on,
I can give it a little break.
Cheers!
Jeff Hailey
Brewing in Tulsa, OK
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:03:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: chsupp at WSPC5AA.PeachtreeCityGA.NCR.COM
Subject: Wheat beer
Brewers,
I brewed 10 gal of 70%British Malt 30%Malted Wheat
Saturday Aug 23rd. I pitched 1 had a starter in a
22oz bottle of Wyeast 1056 and another of Wyeast
3056 which I pitched into separate carboys. Both
carboys were active within 6 hours and very active
within 12 hours. After 24 hours the 1056 continued
as usual but the bubbling from the 3056 had stopped.
Both are at the same temp, about 68F.
There was a tremendous, and dense krausen covering
the 3056 batch. I gently swirled the carboy for 2
days, without any visible signs of activity. Last
night I swirled the carboy more roughly, breaking
the krausen free of the carboy wall, collapsing
some of it back into the beer. Rapid bubbling
resumed immediately and has continued for over 12
hours.
A few questions:
1. Was swirling the 3056 batch a good idea?
2. Before swirling the carboy, was the 3056 batch
in good shape (even though I saw no bubbling)?
3. I refuse to worry about introducing nasties into
the brew by collapsing the krausen, but is it
a valid concern?
4. What happened?
Thanks for any help or suggestions.
Kevin MacRae
Peachtree City, GA
Private responses to:
Kevin.MacRae at PeachtreeCityGA.NCR.COM
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:59:35 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Nuttiness / Jethro / 122 degrees
I am interested in that nuttiness that I get in Salvator. It may also be
present in Sam Smith's Nut Brown Ale, but I haven't had one in YEARS. What
contributes to that beautiful nuttiness in Salvator?
Jethro? Don't know him, only read about him here. I would boycott Little
Apple.
The 122 degree rest? I don't use it anymore. Too many headless beers. I
am curious about its use in beers utilizing large amounts of unmalted
grains such as a belgian wit. Can I skip the rest and still have enough
FAN's to provide yeast nutrition? Also, my impression from posts here is
that Pierre uses malted wheat in Celis White. Any truth to this? Thanks
nathan in Frankenmuth, MI
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:34:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: eric fouch <S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021.efouch%Steelcase-Inc at MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject: Unibroue/Brew Disasters/Malts
Date: Wednesday, 27 August 1997 8:27am ET
To: STC012.HOMEBRE3 at STC010.SNADS
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001
Subject: Unibroue/Brew Disasters/Malts
In-Reply-To: The letter of Wednesday, 27 August 1997 2:07am ET
HBD-
After reading the accolades of Unibroue products, and begging several
coworkers who happened through Canadian Provinces to procure me a case or so,
I have come up empty.
Can ANYBODY tell me where I might find this stuff short of driving to Montreal
myself? I live in Kentwood, a subsidiary of Grand Rapids, MI, and I even sent
an e-mail to the Unibroue brewery asking where the closest distributor might
be. I got no response. I suspect nobody there speaks English, and I myself,
am monolingual.
If any Montrealean home brewers would like to set up an exchange, I'll send
you some quality American brews (Bud, Millers, you name it ;) ) in exchange]
Seriously, we could make a deal] Speaking of making a deal, if Jethro is
looking for work, he can let me know, and I'll pound the pavement here in the
GR area. We have a few reasonably good brew pubs, but we'd love to bring a
world class Brewmiester in] Rob- what line of work is your wife in? We'll
find a career advancement for her too, if it gets you brewing in town. I'm
not really a head hunter, but I play one...
Not to make light of Randy's unfortunate accident, but two years ago I read
either here or in RCB about a woman who dropped a carboy and lacerated her
leg. However, she made sure she got the chilled wort properly stored away
before she drove to the hospital for some stitches. Such dedication to The
Craft is admirable and I believe she got several marriage proposals from the
forum. Glad to here you weren't permanently harmed Randy, but did you save
the beer?
Ian asks about when to add specialty malts. I'm sure you'll get lots of
responses, but since I'm already here- *Never* do you want to let starches get
into the fermenter] I'm taking a chance using the "N" word, and maybe
somebody will find an example to the contrary, but 'till then, I'll
reiterate, NEVER let starch get into the fermenter. OK, some might get in due
to insufficient mash techniques, but the only thing starch in the fermenter
does is provide growth media for bacteria. I think it's a lot easier and
better toss crystal, chocolate, etc. in the mash with the rest of the
grains, and of course, Munich has to be mashed along with the Pale Ale and
Pilsner malts, rye, oats, pumpkin flesh, and what not. The flavor components
will carry over into the sweet wort.
By the way, I just bottled my Punkin Head Ale last night, and the SG sample
(OG 1.055, FG 1.010) tasted like liquid pumpkin pie] Recipe was posted
recently to the HBD.
Eric Fouch
efouch at steelcase.com
Head of International Beer Exchange Program
Bent Dick YactoBrewery
Kentwood MI
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:38:04 -0400
From: rdavis at gator.net (Dave Williams)
Subject: Ornamental Hops / safety
Greetings,
In HBD#2493 Skotrat asks for help:
>I picked about 6 pounds of homegrown hops this weekend and will be picking
>the rest this week.
>I was wondering... Since they are strictly ornamental...
>What should I do with them????
>Suggestions welcome.
>
> -Scott
>
>P.S. No, I am not in practical joke mode (YEA RIGHT!) this is a serious
>inquiry. ;)
The problem of disposing of 6+ pounds of stricktly ornamental hops is a
daunting one. You could start with a centerpiece for the dining room table
and perhaps glue some to the outside of a papier mache' donkey to make a
pinata for the kids. Imagine the aroma when they bash that sucker with a
bat. When you run out of ideas, simply mail the rest to me. I have some
ideas for a tasteful display in a large stainless steel vase. ;-)
By the way, Scott, Have you got any Tetnuggles or Fugnangers?
Also, the issue of safety has come up again. Am I more likely to die of
botulism from boiling water canned starters or be horribly disfigured from
burns when my pressure cooker explodes? I can't decide which I prefer.
(Gee, I hope this doesn't awaken the un-dead bot thread. When does Al K.
get back from G.B.?)
Cheers,
Dave Williams
Newberry, Florida
Whiskey's too rough
Champagne cost too much
And vodka puts my mouth in gear
This little refrain should help me explain
As a matter of fact , I like beer
-Tom T. Hall-
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:59:39 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Re: Chambord/Lager yeast in Weizen/pH strips vs. meter
Hi all,
Tom asks about Chambord, a chocolate/raspberry liqueur that was used
by Paul Sullivan in his NHC Gold medal-winning chocolate raspberry
beer.
I know Paul, and have had that beer. It is good to the extreme.
Using Chambord is a bit tricky, however. The sugar in the liqueur
will ferment out if you don't take measures to prevent it from doing
so (and you don't want the sugar to ferment out). This could range
from kegging the beer, adding the Chambord, force carbonating and
keeping it at freezing, or actually CP filling from a fresh keg and
pasteurizing the bottles. You could just mix it at serving time, too,
I suppose.
-----------------------------------
Frank writes in complaining that his Weizen is too clear because the
lager yeast flocculates too well. I will answer his query with
another: why do add lager yeast to your Weizen?
Most (not all) German breweries do this because the lager yeast is
(supposedly) more stable and will also floc better, forming a tight
cake at the bottom of the bottle. These are important factors if you
are shipping your beer and want it to have a long shelf life.
At home, I can't really think of a reason to do this. Schneider
Weisse, arguably one of the best HefeWeizens in the world, bottles
with the original fermentation yeast. Why shouldn't homebrewers?
(Yes, Schneider's yeast can be cultured; it is also multi-strain).
I think the AHA's "mixed style" classification creates some
unnecessary confusion with this style.
------------------------------------
Ian asks about ColorpHast pH strips and pH meters. I have both. I
use the strips. They are almost always faster, easier, and neater
than the meter. They need no calibration, are accurate enough, and
aren't too expensive ($15 US per 100, but that lasts a while), and
don't break when you drop them.
pH meters are fragile, need to be calibrated EVERY day that you use
them, are expensive, and the porous glass junction can become gunked
up if you are not careful about taking pretty clean samples. You also
need to buy calibrator solutions, electrode filler solution, etc.
There are solid state pH probes now, but they are very expensive. I
suspect that I would like one of them better than the strips, though
(you can measure the pH of semisolids with them! What fun!).
While on the topic of pH measurement, remember to take a small sample
of the liquid to be measured and discard it after the measurement.
Don't just stick the meter/test strip in the mash. Why would you want
to drink the chemicals that are in/on these tools? Sure, there isn't
much, but it's still kind of gross.
Also, pH meter electrodes are fragile. To break it in the mash/wort
would really be a drag!
Have fun!
George De Piro (Nyack, NY)
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:16:31
From: Jay Reeves <jay at or.com>
Subject: Re: Lidless in Laredo
Dave in Dallas replied to Steve Scott's query as to whether
to have the lid on or off and why.
One that Dave left out:
Di-Methyl Sulfide (DMS) reduction.
S-Methyl Methionine is formed during the malting
process, which is then converted to DMS during
the boil. DMS is volatile, which means it can
be carried off with the steam during the boil.
If the lid is left on, the DMS can't go anywhere
and you'll likely end up with a cream-corn or
cooked vegi taste.
So boil with that lid off (unless you like that
kind of taste). If you can't achieve a good
roiling boil with the lid off, I guess
partially off is the next best thing.
-Jay Reeves
Huntsville, Alabama
(originally from Dallas though)
Return to table of contents
Date: 27 Aug 1997 08:26:43 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: Airstones in kegs
>> Brian Wurst writes:
BW> Guy Mason <guy at adra.com> writes:
>> I'd like to hear from anyone out there that uses an airstone to
>> carbonate their kegged beer. How do you set it up? Is it
>> worth the money? Easy to use? etc.
BW> I purchased "The Stone" and adapted it to my system in the following
BW> manner:
BW> I drilled a hole (slightly larger in diameter than a diptube) in a
BW> keg lid and had a six inch piece of diptube TIG welded into the
BW> hole with half above and half below the lid. On the "keg
BW> exterior" side of that diptube I attached a gas hose with a male
BW> flare nut fitting on the end, which hooks up to the gas manifold.
If you want to see how to do this without any welding, get the Sep/Oct
1995 issue of Brewing Techniques and look at my article on how to
build a Carbonation Lid for a stone. I use it more for oxygenation,
since I ferment exclusively in kegs, I naturally carbonate under
pressure in the secondary and have no need for a stone for
carbonation.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California
Return to table of contents
Date: 27 Aug 1997 08:46:36 -0700
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: stuck RIM
>> Keith Royster writes:
KR> Hans Geittmann <hans at sven-tech.com> has problems with a stuck mash
KR> in his RIMS...
>> I couldn't get any flow through my grain bed. Eventually, it
>> turned out ok, but only after 30 minutes of panic, 30 minutes of
>> depression, and a few pints of homebrew to cheer me up...
>> Pump running while adding grist
KR> This also is probably not a good thing. Combined with dumping
KR> your grain in too fast, it could be that the pump sucked too hard
KR> while it was thick causing the grain bed to become compacted and
KR> even lodging some kernels in the holes of your false bottom (which
KR> might explain why stirring wouldn't fix it).
As I told Hans in Email, this was my sticking problem, but I found
that if I stopped the recirc after dough-in, stirred thoroughly, and
then turned the pump back on at low, the problem was solved.
I run my 1/8hp pump at about 5GPM when doughing in and dump the grain
into the water stream. During dough in, I do not use a return
manifold, but a "J" shaped copper pipe that allows a single high force
liquid stream to be used to wet the grain. I put all my foundation
water in, raise it to temp and then add the grain slowly. I use 1.1
qts. per lb. plus a single fixed gallon quantity to account for
equipment volume.
And the only time I ever got the holes in the false bottom plugged
with grain was when I ground it too fine.
dion
- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164 Email: hollen at vigra.com
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs San Diego, California
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:46:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: CaraMalt vs Crystal
What if there were no rhetorical questions? ;-)
Can anyone explain the difference (if any) between the Belgian caramel malts
(CaraVienne, CaraMunich, etc) and say British crystal malt of similar color?
I assume that different base malts are used, but are different processes
used, or are they pretty much the same animal? For example, if I made two
ales using identical base malt, but in one I used 60L crystal and in the
other I used CaraMunich, what differences between the finished beers might I
expect?
*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:00:47 -0400
From: Ken Schramm <SchramK at wcresa.k12.mi.us>
Subject: YeastLab Bavarian
Jonathon, et al...
Not to worry about the Sulfur from the Yeastlab Bavarian. The
Bavarian Lager yeasts are notorious fro throwing a whopping sulfur
blowoff during the early and most active stages of its fermentation.
It sounds like you probably grew up a pretty healthy culture, and
things got off to a bang-up start. If you are cranking along in the
45-50F range, you should notice the sulfur backing off and eventually
departing altogether.
This is not so much a factor of the producer (Yeastlab) as the
strain. YeastLab's strain is very active, and therefore the sulfur
note is more obvious than with other strains available.
Give it a respectable cold lagering, and you should be very pleased.
Ken Schramm
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:05:24 PDT
From: "Bret Morrow" <johnson_et_ale at hotmail.com>
Subject: peristaltic pumps (botulism, ATF, 122 or 135, also!)
Hey There,
I have obtained a peristaltic pump to use in a RIMS-type setup--using a
the hot liquor tank to adjust the wort temp. It has variable speed
control and will move about 500-1000 ml/min at top speed. The main
advantage I see is that the beer will never 'see' the pump head, as the
beer is pushed through the clear flexible tubing (Tygon) by the rotating
stainless steel rollers on the pump head. Does anyone out there have
any experience or advice about using this type of pump in a RIMS system?
Bret Morrow
John Elsworth
P.S. Re: title, I heard that either '122 or 135' 'ATF' agents contracted
'botulism' at a picnic. Any conformation?
Cleanliness is next to drunkenness
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