---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  122 rest/micro hoppiness/fruit beer ("C&S Peterson")
  Mash Efficiency (LBarrowman)
  Wet freezer (Jim Daley)
  Wood alcohol (Brent Irvine)
  What about Anchor "Our Special Ale" Recipe (Wade Hutchison)
  Oud Bruin Anyone? (jjb)
  Crystal vs. caramel (David Johnson)
  Lemon Weiss ("david dow")
  Salvator ("Jim Hunter")
  Re: hmm . . .) ("Ted Major")
  RE: Classic American Pilsner ("Darren W. Gaylor")
  Req. for help from electrically hip HBDer(s) ("Dave Draper")
  malts (Dave Sapsis)
  Beery Linguistic Origins (Rob Kienle)
  7 gal Rubbermaid Mash Tun ("Rosenzweig,Steve")
  122F/wheat rest/break in starters (smurman)
  Re-cork Chimay/Affligem Bottles with Homebrew? (jjb)
  Re: Pete's beer tidbits (Steve Jackson)
  storage temps (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
  Michigan State Fair results (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Mash temp at sparge (brian_dixon)
  A.J. DeLange?  Parts 3 & 4? (brian_dixon)
  hot liqour tank, new beer trend... ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Re: Overnight mashing summary (John D Elsworth)
  RE: Strike Water Temps ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  1997 Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition web site (Sean Lamb)
  "Famous Ales of England" ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  Death of botulism and BATF (Samuel Mize)
  Fruit beer sweetness ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  Wyeast 1272 vs. 1056 American Ale yeasts ("Michael Kowalczyk")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 11:54:00 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at classic.msn.com>
Subject: 122 rest/micro hoppiness/fruit beer

HBDers -

Dave B quoted my results from using a 122 rest in an all-wheat beer and I just 
wanted to set the record straight -- I think my post may have been 
mis-leading.  I included in my post on 122 rests was a read-out of overnight 
mashing of the first decoction in a double decoction mash.  The post provided 
a "headless" all-wheat beer as evidence that the 122 rest degrades heading 
properties of even beers expected to be loaded with MWM protiens.   Dave 
deduced that the overnight mashing technique was used in the production of 
this wheat beer (a natural association since I did not provide details on how 
the mash of the all-wheat was performed -- sorry, my mistake)

The all-wheat beer I mentioned in fact did not use the overnight decoction 
rest.   This beer was made with a "traditional" double decoction.  The whole 
mash was raised to 122, given a 30 minute rest, the first decoction was 
pulled, saccrafied, boiled, and recombined.  The main mash sat at 122 for a 
long time (few hours).  When I got the headless result on this beer is when I 
decided in future beers to start the main mash later in the decoction, and 
eventually to keep the main mash (less the decoction fraction) at 130 or above 
for no more than 30 minutes.  Now, given that this was done for a doppel and a 
fest, and I still had some beers with troublesome heading properties.  Which 
is kind of curious since only 1/3 of the mash had seen the 122 rest, albeit an 
extended one.  So, maybe some other components (lipids?) were pulled out 
during the extra-long 122 rest of the overnight decoction fraction and these 
killed the otherwise OK heading properties in the main mash fraction.  Just 
conjecture on my part.  

Micro hoppiness too tame?  I guess I would have to agree that there are a lot 
of IPAs out there using the name but not deliverying.  Plenty of pilseners 
too.  Of course there are exceptionally good example of these styles, as Jim 
B. points out.  Which really gets to what I was concerned about before -- my 
hope is that b-pubs and micros offer balanced line-ups, with hoppy beers as 
well as malty, roasted, smoked, etc as desired.  What I don't like to see is 
pubs/micros that simply say, "lets take X style, hop the hell out of it and 
boost the gravity" as a RULE.  This approach works great, and in fact invents 
new styles.  But then I would hope these brewers would also have the 
creativity to make, say, a malty beer starting at 10 degrees.  Or a toasted 
American Wheat.  Or any of the creative syles we as homebrewers fool with.  

Are we seeing the toning down of pub/micro styles to appeal to the masses?  I 
find that trend most disturbing..........its how we got Bud.  But 
unfortuantely a trend that is present in many other countries.  Britian is 
filled with middle of the road beers, as is Germany.  While on the whole the 
drinking is better in these beer loving regions, I am often disappointed when 
I get to these countries and find it difficult to get exceptional beers (or 
maybe my expectations are just inflated).  You can certainly get some really 
great beers there, but there are tons of toned down bitters, IPA, helles, 
dunkels, etc along the way.  Is this where the US micros are heading?  Hope 
not.....

Finally, there was a question on boosting the flavor of a Blueberry Ale.  My 
suggestion is that most of the "flavor" at this point is already in the beer.  
The best way you can increase this impression is to boost the aroma.  Try to 
find some natural blueberry extract (in the small 1.5 ounce bottles -- not the 
large jars at the homebrew store) -- adding this at bottling will help bring 
through that blueberry flavor you're looking for.  Lactose will also help 
sweeten, if you can't find malto-dextrine powder.

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md





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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:13:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: LBarrowman at aol.com
Subject: Mash Efficiency

There has been a lot of talk about different methods of mashing. Everyone has
an opinion on the variables that affect wort make up and final beer product.
I do enjoy all of these discussions and save many of them for reference. I am
still on training wheels as far as all-grain brewing is concerned so my
question is a bit more basic.

How do I improve my efficiency?

I thought I was getting around 70% until I consulted an article in
March/April BT. According to that source I am closer to 60%. Also, the author
claims homebrewers should expect no more than 65-68%. Other homebrewers seem
to get anywhere from 50% to an unbelievable 90+.

I would appreciate some thoughts from the collective. 

Here are my stats:
batch size - 10 gallons
mash tun - rectangular cooler w/ slotted in/outlet manifolds
pH control - nada
temperature control - nada
misc. mechanical appurtenances - none

I have been doing simple infusion mashes and mash in/out temperatures are in
the correct ranges. I have tried mashing for 90 min. to overnight. Iodine
says I am converted. Sparging takes ~45+ min. I recirculate the first 4 - 5
quarts of runnings.

I will post a summary.

Thanks,


Laura
Charlotte  NC

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:43:21 -0400
From: Jim Daley <jgdaley at gw.dec.state.ny.us>
Subject: Wet freezer

I recently purchased a chest freezer for keg storage.  I hooked up a
temperature regulator and keep it at about 42 degrees F.  Everything
works great except that the inside of the freezer gets WET!  Its not set
cold enough to freeze, but does act as a giant condenser.  I don't open it
that much (once a week maybe), but there still is quite a bit of dampness
inside it.  On the bottom along the sides there is a little standing water.  It
smells kind of musty.

Two questions:
1.  What can be done to alleviate the problem?
2. Is the inside of the freezer a breeding ground for beer infection (e.g.,
when hooking up a keg that has been store in there for a while)?

Thanks,

Jim Daley
Albany, New York
jgdaley at gw.dec.state.ny.us

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 8:48:45 EDT
From: Brent Irvine <brenirvi at enoreo.on.ca>
Subject: Wood alcohol

I noticed an article from one of the digest's subscriber's at UofT, and he 
mentioned wood alcohol. Over the past year or so, there have been problems in 
my area (north eastern Ontario) with illegal vodka with wood alcohol in it. 
Last spring four persons died, and just last week, another person was brought 
to hospital with severe symptoms of the poisoning. Can anyone clarify as to 
whether or not any of this insidious substance makes its way into our 
beautiful pastime of creating our custom beers or wines? Are there traces of 
it when we make each batch? If so, is there any harm for us, or is it in such 
minute quantities, that its concentration is harmless.  Nobody seems to have 
these answers. Any doctors or brewers with PhD in micro who would be able to 
shed some light?



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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:02:24 -0400
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: What about Anchor "Our Special Ale" Recipe

>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:02:14 -0700
>From: Chas Douglass <ChasD at Halcyon.Com>
>Subject: Redhook Winterhook Recipe Request
>
>Redhook advertises Winterhook as a "christmas ale" (or was that "winter
>ale"?, anyway) so I'm open to other suggestions as well, but I'd really
>like a Winterhook clone.
>
>advTHANKSance
>
>Chas Douglass
>
On a related note, does anyone have a recipe, or even a good guess
at the spices used, for the Anchor "Our Special Ale" that they
do each year for Christmas.  I'm ready this week or next to
put up the christmas beer for this year, and I'd love to
try something approaching the Anchor beer.

	whutchis at bucknell.edu
	Wade Hutchison, College Engineer
	Bucknell University, College of Engineering
	http://www.eg.bucknell.edu/~whutchis

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 9:18:32 -0500
From: jjb at vnf.com
Subject: Oud Bruin Anyone?

I'm thinking of trying to make an oud bruin style Belgian, sort of as a bri=
dge
on the path to brewing a faux lambic=2E  Has anyone tried to brew one of
these beers, or have any recipes they would care to share=2E  I'm
particularly interested in:  (1) success (or necessity) of using any oak
cask, (2) suitable microflora, and (3) blending=2E

Thanks

- --John Buchovecky (jjb at vnf=2Ecom)

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:37:46 -0700
From: David Johnson <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Crystal vs. caramel

Brewers,
	In reading Jim Busch's and Ken Schwartz' posts I am inspired to 
quote from someone I also admire. I have trouble understanding parts of 
this section of Noonan's  "New Brewing Lager Beer" :
	"Crystal and Caramel malts are similar products, but they should 
not be considered interchangeable. Caramel malts have a higher moisture 
content, are not completely saccharified, and are not kilned to the point 
that the endosperm is entirely glassy." he goes on to describe the 
processing of both types. Does this mean that there is at least 
some starch in caramel malts and that they should be mashed? He then 
discusses CaraPils processing before going on :"'crystal' versions of the 
malt are completely saccharified during kilning. they both increase the 
sweetness, fullness, foam retention, and storage stability of beers 
without appreciably increasing the color."
	"Other caramel malts are treated similarly but are colored at 
higher temperatures-240 to275 degrees F (116to 135 dgrees C). Caramel 
malts as 5 to 15 percent of the grain bill give a caramel often 
raisenlike flavor and 'chewey' character to beers. Ascaramel malt color 
increases, bitterness and roastiness increase accordingly."
	"Caramel malts were traditionally used by continental lager 
brewers, wheras crystal malts were favored by British ale brewers. The 
distinctive complex flavors of caramel malts have there place in brewing, 
but unfortunately, modern maltsters are eschewing the production the 
production of crisper-flavored crystal malts in favor of the 
easier-to-process caramel malts. In fact, most modern maltings no longer 
make a distinction between caramel and crystal malts." This appears to be 
true reading Brewing Techniques recent Market Guide. There are few named 
"crystal" malts but then go on to describe themselves as caramel malts or 
describe a process that sounds more like caramel malts. Baird and Durst 
seem to do this. Paul's and Beeston seem to be among the few that may be 
producing real crystal. I don't believe that they are widely available on 
a homebrew level. So are we spinning our wheels here?
	"True crystal malts are completely saccharified in 
a...(discussion of process)...They give flavors that are crisper and 
cleaner than caramel malts; the lighter-colored crystal malts especially 
give less bitterness and pungency than caramel malts."
	Sorry for making a post that is largely quoting from someone 
else, but we all are "standing on the shoulders of giants."
	dave


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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:54:26 -0400
From: "david dow" <dinkydav at ime.net>
Subject: Lemon Weiss

I nave just drank a great beer that I want to make better.
I made a Hefe-weizen that came out just great!  What I 
want to make now is a lemon weiss.  I know that I need
to add a lemon extract.  What I don't is how much.  If I 
add too much, it will over power the beer, not enough 
and it does nothing.  Does anyone have an idea how 
much is enough?  I could probably use real lemons, couldn't I?

Any help will be appreciated.
dinky dave

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Date: 29 Aug 1997 07:05:48 -0800
From: "Jim Hunter" <Jim.Hunter at quickmail.llnl.gov>
Subject: Salvator

Speaking of Paulaner Salvator, does any one have an all grain recipe for such?


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:51:33 -0400
From: "Ted Major"<tmajor at exrhub.exr.com>
Subject: Re: hmm . . .)





Close, but not quite on this one:

> >After consuming a bucket or two of vibrant brew they called aul,
or
ale, the
> >Vikings would head fearlessly into battle often without armor or
even
shirts.
> > In fact, the term "berserk" means "bare shirt" in Norse, and
eventually took
> >on the meaning of their wild battles.

"berserk" and berserker" are derived not from "bare shirt" but from "bear
shirt,"
referring to a shirt made of bear hide.  The shirt formed a totem for the
warriors
who were protected by the bear spirit (as well as the thick bear hide
itself), and
often in the sagas were actually transformed into bears.  It relates to a
folklore
motif called by Panzer the "bear's son tale," which has to do with a hero
who is
descended from a bear.  These heroes often are unpromising as youths and
later perform
great deeds in adulthood.  The quintessential bear's son hero is Bothvar
Bjarki of
the Icelandic saga (literally "Bearson little bear"), and other heores
associated
with the bear son motif are Odysseus and Beowulf.

now if I could just bring this discussion back to brewing . . .

Thanks again to Jeff Renner for reintroducing Classic American Pilsener as
a style.
And speaking of adjuncts, I highly recommend a dose of corn in a Cream Ale,
 another
classic American style.  According to Wahl & Henius, at the turn of the
century
brewers used as much as 30% corn in the grist.  I was mighty pleased with
the cream ale
I brewed last spring.  Let's hear it for that great American ingredient,
Maize!

Like Jeff, I used yellow corn grits (essentially coarse corn meal).
Unfortunately,
they cost about $1 a pound in the grocery here in Goergia, as much as
barley malt
in the homebrew store, and a good bit more trouble.  Does anyone have
experience
using hominy grits (which of course are much cheaper than yellow grits here
 in the
South) in brewing?

Ted Major
Athens, Georgia
tmajor at parallel.park.ga.edu



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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:08:10 -0700
From: "Darren W. Gaylor" <dwgaylor at pacifier.com>
Subject: RE: Classic American Pilsner

I heartily recommend brewing a Classic American Pilsner.  Last spring I =
brewed such a beer (thanks to some input by Jeff).  It was excellent.  =
I, too, did a double mash with corn grits (actually a fun process) but =
have used flaked maize in the past. =20

I'd like to thank those responsible for reviving a truly classic beer.  =
(Special thanks to Jeff Renner for convincing me to raise my sights a =
little and not brew a lawnmower beer.)

Darren W. Gaylor


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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:37:04 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Req. for help from electrically hip HBDer(s)

Dear Friends,

This is a request for assistance from anyone who is comfortable with
the electrical systems of refrigerators.  My newly-acquired used
brewing fridge appears to have died on me.  The symptom is that, when
attempting to plug it in, there is an immediate flash at the wall
plug and the plug's built-in mini circuit breaker trips (thank
goodness the plug has one of those).  For the brief instant that
this flash is happening, power does arrive at the fridge (I can hear
the motor and see the inside light bulb light up).  It ran fine for
the first 4 or 5 days, then I found it dead with this symptom
happening.  I have verified that it is only the fridge that does
this (other things run fine off the same plug). There is, I am
pretty sure, nothing else on this circuit (it's the only plug in the
garage) and in any case there have been no unusual loads placed on
the house's electrical system for the time I have had the fridge. 
Although I have enough experience in things electrical from my lab
work to be able to follow knowledgeable instructions, I don't have
the confidence to get in there and start messing with things without
having a better idea of what I am doing.  Private email only,
please, and many thanks for any assistance. 

Cheers, Dave in Dallas
- ---
***************************************************************************
  David S. Draper, Geosciences, Univ Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
  ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome)  WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
     E-probe lab page: http://www.utdallas.edu/~ddraper/probe.html
  ...That's right, you're not from Texas... but Texas wants you anyway...

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:33:36 -0700
From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>
Subject: malts

Regarding the recent thread on malts and their apparent needs for low
temp protien rests, It is interesting to note that even Continental pils
malts are highly modified in protien terms...the maltsters are doing
much of the work that was formerly reserved for the mashtun, much to the
dismay of some traditionalists.  FWIW, I have noticed a significantly
reduced body when holding both American and British malts for any time
at all around 50C (122F).  Sometimes this is a good thing, as I find
more trouble with too much body in some styles I make in the warm
months, than the opposite.  

In reviewing some data I have, I found an interesting malt source that
is probably amongst the lowest prtien mod available (and from England of
all places!):  Crisp has a " Finest Pilsner Lager Malt" with a "typical
analysis" of 39% STN -- still pretty high and probably not deserving of
a peptidase rest.  These malts are now available on the west coast, but
I have only used their pale and crystal.  I have a contact for the
distributor if people are interested.  What I wonder about is the specs
on the 6-row pale that is being used in most of the huge breweries here
in the states.  

In following up what Jim said regarding the similarity and differences
in cara-malts, it gets even more confusing than that: Stamped on the bag
of British Hugh Baird caravienne malt is a Lovibond range (29-37) and
below that: "Product of Belgium".  It is a short channel, but sheeesh!

Kudos to Andy Walsh and Jim Lidill -- now i know why my American wheat
beers (mit Tett) taste like Boddingtons ;-)


David Sapsis
Fire and Fuels Specialist 
CDF Fire and Resource Assessment Program
916.227.1338       dave_sapsis at fire.ca.gov


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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:50:40 -0500
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Beery Linguistic Origins

On a recent trip to Goose Island Brewery here in Chicago, I noted a sign
they have that claims that the term "Bridal" originates from the
expression "Bride's Ale." According to the sign, at some point in the
past (not sure when or where), the family of the bride would brew a
special batch of ale to dispense at the wedding, and perhaps to sell
afterwards in order to help defray the costs of the celebration. Can
anyone out there verify the accuracy of this claim or shed any further
insights into the details?

- --
Cheers4beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com



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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:47:58 PDT
From: "Rosenzweig,Steve" <Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com>
Subject: 7 gal Rubbermaid Mash Tun

Last season I did 10 all grain batches on a stove top  in a 5 gal pot 
 with a JS easymasher.  Worked great, much better efficiency than the 
 two bucket method, and I like the temperature control the pot provided 
 for a three step mash.  Although I was always too lazy to use an 
 insulating jacket to hold temps, rather stirring, checking temp, and 
 firing up the stove every 15 minutes or so.  Timing and temp holding 
 got a little tight for the brews after March 17th, the birth of my 
 first brewing assistant!

Two things drove me to try out a new mash tun this season:  not enough 
 room in the 5 gal pot for much more than 12# of grain (and I'm too 
 cheap to buy a bigger one!), and having a new 6 month old brewing 
 assistant this season will take some time and attention away from my 
 brew day.  With the new mash tun I will likely stick to single temp 
 infusions (at least at first), and not have to worry about  temp 
 fluctuations if I have to attend to the baby (great justification to 
 go gadgeteering, eh?)

I bought one of those new 7 gallon Rubbermaid/Home Depot coolers to 
 convert into a mash tun, and I must say, converting it was easier than 
 I thought!  Here is a synopsis of my system for those interested.

The plastic spigot comes right out by unscrewing the nut on the inside, 
 leaving a rubber grommet around the hole.  A 1/2 inch copper pipe fits 
 somewhat snugly through this grommet, but not tight enough to convince 
 me it wouldn't leak under mash conditions!  I removed the grommet and 
 replaced it with a rubber bung from a 5L mini-keg (after overcarbing 
 many of my mini kegs, denting them beyond recognition, I have plenty 
 bungs and stoppers left! - besides I graduated to 5 gal cornies since 
 picking up a used beermeister anyway!)

The 1/2 inch copper tube did fit through the hole of the rubber bung, 
 but it is an awfully tight fit!  (I've got the blisters on my hands to 
 prove it - the key was in using a long piece of copper to leverage it 
 in and then cut it off to size)  I am somewhat concerned about the 
 stress that this will cause on the plastic surrounding the hole, 
 especially at mash temps, so we'll just have to wait and see how this 
 will work.  Worse comes to worse, I may have to use a close fitting 
 with some rubber washers and nuts and rig up another way to connect to 
 my spigot and manifold.

I put a valve on the outside, 1/2 inch compression fit to 3/8 inch 
 compression, with a 90 degree bend so with a short piece of 3/8 copper 
 tube pointing down, I can just attach my drain hose and adjust the 
 flow with the valve.  My theory is that the valve is the same type you 
 might use for a hot water supply, so it should be fine at mash temps, 
 but again, experience will tell.

On the inside I put a 1/2 inch copper manifold, using 90 degree elbows 
 and tees to make roughly a square with one crossbeam in it.  (No 
 cheesy ascii art for me- you'll just have to imagine a theta!)

The last step is to make the holes on the bottom of my manifold pipes.

I will take one of two approaches here, either drill a series of small 
 (1/16 - 1/32 ?) holes in the pipes of the manifold for the bottom, or 
 I will make a series of cuts with the thinnest hacksaw blade I can 
 find about 1/2 inch apart at an angle to the pipe about 1/8 - 1/4 way 
 through the pipe, again along what will be the bottom.

Question:  Any pros or cons regarding which approach to take here?  
 Does anyone strongly advocate either way, and why?

I may just try both over a couple of clone batches to see if there is 
 any difference I can tell, copper pipe isn't prohibitively expensive 
 to experiment on!

Since I can easily take this all apart for cleaning, I can also easily 
 tinker with the design!  Another possible improvement is to add a tee 
 and a standpipe opposite the output such that I could underlet water 
 straight to the bottom in the event of a stuck sparge . . . oooh I 
 love tinkering!

So this system should afford me a little more flexibility in my brew 
 day due to the temperature stability, and my recipe selection since I 
 can move upwards of 16-17# of grain.  I'm still stuck on the stove 
 top, at least until Xmas!  Hopefully Santa will see that double burner 
 circled in the Cabela's catalog!  And one of these days I'll run 
 across that perfect SS brewpot . . .

Sorry for the length, hope this is useful for someone else thinking of 
 creating their own mash tun.  Any and all opinions, comments, or 
 ranting is welcome - especially on the hole/cut issue!

Stephen

ps- thanks to all who resurrected, run and maintain the HBD!

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:09:41 -0700
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: 122F/wheat rest/break in starters


Regarding the 122F vs. 135F protein rest.  There's a very good page
at the IOB web-site discussing haze.  One of their findings is that
a 122F rest reduces the haze-forming proteins relative to a 135F
rest.  This was the case regardless of whether the malt was highly-
modified or not.  I've heard this from other sources, and one of
the Charlies mentioned that a brewer friend of his also has this
same result.

OTOH, as others have mentioned, with modern malts there is usually
very little benefit to including a 122F rest for reducing the
(average) protein length.  A 135F rest can be beneficial for reducing
the HMWP to MMWP for better head stability and formation, replacing
some of the MMWP that has been lost in the malting process.

It seems to me it's a question of trying to remove the potential
haze-forming proteins vs. trying to maximize the amount of MMWP in the
wort.  Which you choose will probably depend on the malt you're using,
they style you're brewing, &c., &c.  What would really help is if
maltsters would give us some data to work with.

George and Laurie Fix just released a book that deals with these very
issues and how they relate to modern malts.  Perhaps George could stop
by and give us a preview of what they recommend? (Bueller?  Bueller?)

//

Speaking of rest temperatures.  There's been recent talk of hefeweizen
yeast strains, but one thing that I don't think is stressed strongly
enough is the inclusion of a rest near 110F when brewing a weizen
beer.  This is not a rest designed to reduce the pH of the mash,
although it does have that added benefit, but rather it is a "glucan
rest", for lack of a better term.

A rest near 110F creates ferulic acid from malted wheat (and other
malts as well??), which is one of the main components that the weizen
yeast strain uses to create the banana and clove phenols
representative of the style.  Other yeast strains cannot convert
ferulic acid into 4-vinyl-guaiacol (banana-clove flavor), but if you
don't include a 110F rest, the ferulic acid won't be present, and your
weizen yeast won't be able to perform the desired conversion either.

I think some of the talk of the desirability of a high temperature
ferment (near 70F) using these yeast strains in order to produce
"enough phenols" for the style is the result of not using a 110F rest.
I regularly ferment at 65F, and I get a wonderful hefeweizen flavor.

//

This last subject does not discuss botulism at all.  Please read on
anyway:) 

We've discussed canning starters at length.  I take the last quart of
wort that is left in my kettle, strain it through its' own wet hops,
and then pressure can that to make my next starter.  This gives me a
hopped wort full of protein break material which should be ideal as a
yeast starter environment (to my mind anyway).

Recently, I've been wondering about just how much protein break
material I'm dumping into my fermenter if I add this entire starter.
I'm especially wondering because I'm going to try experimenting with
Irish moss for a couple of batches.  I'm also concerned because the
pressure cooking *really* generates a lot of break material.  

Am I dumping a concentrated batch of protein break material into my
fermenter, or is this just a "drop in the bucket"?  Should this break
material drop to the bottom of the fermenter, or will it distribute
through the wort in some sort of molecular-chain matrix?  Do others
who use similar methods try to decant the wort from the break material
when preparing a starter?

If you've read this far, congratulations - you're a homebrew junkie.

SM

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:45:30 -0500
From: jjb at vnf.com
Subject: Re-cork Chimay/Affligem Bottles with Homebrew?

Does anyone know whether it's possible to recork large Belgian bottles
with homebrew=2E  I'd like to reuse' em if possible=2E  They're nice and th=
ick
for those high gravity brews=2E

- --John Buchovecky (jjb at vnf=2Ecom)

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:50:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pete's beer tidbits

Brian K. Dulisse posted material orginating fromthe Pete's Wicked
people about several English words and phrases that supposedly have
the origins in beer and/or brewing.

I don't know about the validity of the others, but I know this one is
false:

> >In English pubs, ale is ordered by pints and quarts.  So in old
England, when
> >customers got unruly, the bartender would yell at them to mind 
their
own
> >pints and quarts and settle down.  It's where we get the phrase 
"mind
your
> >P's and Q's".

Mind your P's and Q's is actually an old typesetting term. In the old
days, type had to be set manually. Each letter was imprinted on a lead
slug (can't remember the technical term anymore). Of course, the
letters were mirror images of the printed form, since the ink was
applied to the block of set type and the paper pressed against the
block. "Mind your P's and Q's" referred to the fact that, in their
mirrored form, a lower case p looks like a lower case q, and vice
versa (the same problem applies with lower case b and d). Even though
they look like each other on the type block, there are actually subtle
differencs in the construction of the two letters (in most standard
serif fonts, the diameter of the circle on the q is slightly bigger
than the circle of the p), which would cause a document that used q's
in place of p's to look funny. The cliche was used as a reminder to
typesetters to keep use the proper letter.

 -Steve



_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com


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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:17:34 -0500
From: layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
Subject: storage temps

Joe Shope wrote about flavor change in beer stored 4 weeks at 80-90F
vs. same beer stored at 60-65F. Here's a guess: search old HBDs for
"hot side aeration" or "hsa". There were lots of posts on this subject
in years past. I've read that it can affect shelf life.

Then again, I don't think you will find anyone saying that storing
homebrew at 80-90F is a good thing to do. Even the finest beers will
go down hill pretty fast if treated like that. I'll bet that the sorry
state I find many import beers to be in is a result of warm storage in
a shipping container on the boat ride over, followed by a few weeks 
of unrefrigerated ground transportation and warehouse storage. Then
its the green bottles, sunshine, and fluorescent lights. The poor
beer doesn't stand a chance even after it has been filtered and 
pasteurized. Having said that, I just purchased a six of Spaten 
octoberfest last week which was outstanding. I think the fresh stuff
is coming in now.

Jim Layton (Howe, TX)

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:33:52 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Michigan State Fair results

Results from the 1997 Michigan State Fair homebrew competition can be
found at http://realbeer.com/spencer/msf97

The competition drew 219 entries from 59 brewers.  Best of show went
to Jeff Renner for his American-style Pilsner, "Your Father's
Mustache".

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 09:23:41 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Mash temp at sparge

>Subject: Mash temp at sparge
>
>There has been some discussion lately of the importance of keeping the
>mash temperature high throughout the sparge in order to achieve good
>extraction.  This makes some sense to me but this past weekend I
>inadvertently violated this practice.
[snip]
>grain and liquid.  By this time the grain bed temp had fallen to
120-130F.
>My sparge water was still hot but the runoff was not.  In spite of all
this
>I got my usual 75-80 percent extraction rate.  Any comments?
>
>John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at imtn.dsccc.com

I use an uninsulated plastic bucket with a Phil's Phalse bottom (same
setup as you but a bucket instead of an Igloo cooler).  My runoff temps
are typically around 120-130 F as you mention, and I get 88% efficiency,
sometimes better.  Go figure!  BUT, if the temperature drops below that
at all, the sparge immediately slows and threatens to quit on me.  The
key is keeping the sparge water temperature between 170-175 F.  Because
of this, I intend to move to an insulated system like you, but certainly
not because my extraction efficiency suffered.

Brian

PS: I sparge for about an hour and I also do a mash-out for 10 minutes
at 165 F.  These things help.  (I do not do the George Fix 104 F rest,
which also increases efficiency...but may some day).


 .......................................................................

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 10:24:46 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: A.J. DeLange?  Parts 3 & 4?


Did anyone see parts 3 and 4 of AJ's 4-part series on water chemistry
get posted?  I saved off the first 2 parts, and I assume that AJ got
busy and hasn't had a chance to post the other 2 parts ... but just in
case I missed them, I wanted to ask for them from someone who DID catch
them.

TIA,
Brian


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:44:44 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: hot liqour tank, new beer trend...

Todd Ehlers <ehlers at mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>snip...
>We then use a five gallon insulated soda-keg for a hot liquor tank--when
>the mash temp has been reached and the steam isn't needed for the mash, we
>remove the steam line and inject the steam into a full soda-keg, raising it
>to sparge water temp.  This way we don't need to use the kettle for a hot
>liquor tank.  ...
>(The soda keg is insulated with a jacket made of wet suit material made by
>a company called Below Forty.  It was a little pricey ($25) but we've been
>happy with it.  It's obviously equally good at keeping a soda keg cold.)

I use a GOTT for a hot liquor tank.  Cheaper than a soda keg, and it comes
insulated.  With 7 gallon GOTTs available, now, all the better.

***
I think I've noticed the next big thing in craft brewing..........
Copper beers!  Red ales seem to be declining, and at my local pub 
earlier this week, I noticed two copper beers.  A copper wheat and
a copper ale.  both from breweries in northern california.

Anyone have a recipe for ....(just kidding)


          - Bryan
            gros at bigfoot.com
            Oakland, CA

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:59:59 -0400
From: elsworth at connix.com (John D Elsworth)
Subject: Re: Overnight mashing summary

Based on feedback (thanks Scott and Al) about my note last week about
extended mashes, I wish to clarify a couple of points.

While any lactobacillus present in the mash will be destroyed when the wort
is boiled, any lactic acid (and associated sour taste) that it had formed
before then will, of course, remain. See earlier note about likelihood of
infection, though.

Although you might, at first, expect the beer resulting from an extended
mash to be thin because dextrins will be broken down over time by
beta-amylase, this is not necessarily the case.  At temperatures above
140F, alpha- and beta-amylases are not stable.  Apparently at typical mash
temperatures, beta-amylase is denatured within an hour, and alph-amylase
within 2 hours.  So even if the mash is extended the amount of dextrins
formed may not drop off too much after 2 hours.  Mash thickness, however,
will have some bearing enzyme stability -  enzymes are more stable in
thicker mashes, I believe.

So it seems, theoretically at least, that you could get a good full bodied
beer with an extended mash. Any comments? Has anyone done a proper
comparison of beers made with different mash times?  Are there any other
enzymes that contibute to saccrification?

Cheers,

John Elsworth



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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:15:35 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: RE: Strike Water Temps

In HBD2492 Bill from Glassboro, NJ asked about mash strike water temp
calculation in regards to grain temp.


Bill,
There is a public domain program out there that does just what you want.
It's called "Infusion Mash Temperature Calculator" written by Pat
Anderson.
I have a copy that I downloaded from The Brewerys' website. (I think
that's
where I got it). Go to The Real Beer Page and you can find it there.
It's a neat little program and appears to be very accurate, at least in 
my experience. I use it's calculations and also compare the results
with another piece of software and the differences are so small that you 
couldn't read them on the average thermometer anyway.

Good Luck and Happy Mashing!

Marc
 
- --------------------------------------------------
Capt. Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:06:24 -0600
From: slamb at ghg.net (Sean Lamb)
Subject: 1997 Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition web site

The 1997 Dixie Cup will be held in Houston, Texas the weekend of 24
and 25 October, 1997

Entry deadline is 10 October

Entry fee is $6

For more information, email me or see the Dixie Cup web pages at:

http://www.ghg.net/slamb/dc14.html
Sean Lamb   One of the Happy Humanoids in Friendswood, TX
http://www.ghgcorp.com/slamb

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:38:12 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: "Famous Ales of England"

In HBD 2495 Randy in Modesto wrote (in part) about Pub draft cans:

>In the US however, and especially off the beaten path, this
>less-than-ideal packaging is as good as it gets.  And it's a lot better than
>the mega-swill we usually get.  I don't actually disagree with Sheena, >but I
am in the "it's better than nothing" camp.

>BTW, If you have a Trader Joe's store near you, you may want to get
>down there soon.  They have an eight-pack of pint drafts called >"Famous Ales
of England" for $8.  Two each of Boddingtons Pub Ale >Draught, Fuggles Imperial
Draught, Castle Eden Ale Draught, and >Flowers Original Draught.  

>Pretty decent, IMO.

I was just finishing one of those 8-packs I got as a gift: consider this a
review.

Pub draft cans - they do make a nice creamy head on the beer.  I had no trouble
with them shooting all over the room, but was careful to have a large glass
handy for the pour.  I didn't try drinking from the can, which the directions
said was also acceptable.  

The beer - well, except for the "Fuggles Imperial Draught" they all tasted very
similar.  The Fuggles also, except with noticeable Fuggles taste and slight
Fuggles aroma.  I noted a metallic taste to all the beers.  I also note this
when drinking Megaswill beers from a can.   Bland, gassy and awful?  Bland and
gassy, yes, but not as much so as American Standard Lager and not awful at all. 
Comparable to Real Ale?  Never.  

Would I buy this beer?  If there was no choice between this and Budmilloors in
cans, yes.  If the Budmilloors was in bottles, I'd have to think about it. 
Price might enter in.  If a decent microbrew was available, I'd buy that without
reference to price.  In my neck of the woods, good craft brew is about the same
price.  Good homebrew will always be my first choice.
 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 20:40:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Death of botulism and BATF

Greetings,

We've been having fun griping about the botulism and BATF/eisbock
threads.  I'd like to point out that what really killed them was
someone actually going out, doing authoritative research, and
posting real data.

Neither shouting within the thread nor shouting about the thread
had much impact.

Also, I learned interesting and important homebrewing-related things
from both threads.  Nobody left angry or felt personally insulted at
the end, as far as I could see.

This is just worlds better than so many online forums.

Congratulations, HBD!!!

Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:27:58 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Fruit beer sweetness

In HBD 2495 Chris asked about getting more blueberry flavor and more body in a
fruit beer by adding dextrose before bottling.  

Adding additional highly fermentable sugar will not add fruit flavor (i.e.
sweetness) unless you pasteurize or sterile filter.  It will give you bottle
bombs if added at bottling, will raise your alcohol if allowed to ferment out. 
At this point, you can learn to like tart beer, or add sugar after pouring.  The
tartness may moderate some during conditioning.  You could try adding
malto-dextrin at bottling, I haven't tried this and some maintain it to be
worthless in adding sweetness (which would increase the perception of fruit).

Your recipe looks like it had a fair amount of non-fermentable sugars.  Next
time, you could try mashing at higher temperature (say at 158), using less
attenuative yeast, such as Wyeast 1338 (no affiliation, etc.) , or adding more
fruit, in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 lbs per gallon.   BTW, the beer sounds good
(I like tart beer).
 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:39:37 -0700
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Wyeast 1272 vs. 1056 American Ale yeasts

Mark Warrington writes:

Can someone give me an idea of the difference in fermentation these two
yeasts exhibit? I have read that 1272 is "fruitier and more highly
flocculant" than the 1056. What will this do to a brown ale?

I prefer 1272 because the higher flocculant qualities means my beers clear
faster means I can drink them earlier and have to brew again faster (My kind
of vicious circle!).  I brewed 3 beers with 1272 and 4 beers with 1056. 
Fermentation temps around 68 - 73.  I was real surprised that 1272 was not
fruity.  I'm looking at my notes, and all of the 1272 taste descriptions say
"crisp".  As a matter of fact, I had a beer made with this yeast recently
that I found in a friends basement (he has more will power than I) and
couldn't really remember which yeast I used.   Whereas its pretty obvious
when 1056 is used.

The closest thing to a brown I brewed with this yeast is a porter.  It turned
out very well.  The crisp taste and lack of "fruit" was perfect for the style
I was shooting for.  I brewed a brown with 1056 and wasn't happy with the
fruit taste I get from 1056.

Anyone know what commercial beers use 1272?

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---