---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: When to add crystal and other specialty malts (brian_dixon)
  Guiness and nutrition (jared froedetrt)
  Classic American Pilsner (was Sam Adams clones) (Jeff Renner)
  Re:pH meters or ColorpHast? (Charlie Scandrett)
  Wyeast 1272 vs. 1056 American Ale yeasts (Mark Warrington)
  These Awful Things (Randy Erickson)
  re: Wheat Beer (Meercat)
  Re: Peristaltic Pump for RIMS (PBSys)
  Re: Natural Gas vs. Propane, CO (Art Steinmetz)
  hmm . . . ("Dulisse, Brian K [PRI]")
  Lids/caramalts/IPAs/122F (Jim Busch)
  Brainless in Botswana ("Dave Draper")
  Hop growing - tales from the backyard (Paul Sovcik)
  Salvator/Celis/starch ("Kerr, David")
  Nuttiness (Mark T A Nesdoly)
  122F Rest - some real world data (Charles Burns)
  re:cold break separation (Charles Burns)
  BJCP Training - Its FUN! (Charles Burns)
  Thanks (Glyn Crossno)
  storage temps (Joe Shope)
  Redhook Winterhook Recipe Request (Chas Douglass)
  Re: No-Sparge Gravity Prediction ("Bryan Cronk")
  Ornamental hops ("Don Van Valkenburg")
  Fruit Beer Question? (Christopher Tkach)
  starch in fermenter/Driving Miss DMS (Natalie Martina)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 11:21:21 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: When to add crystal and other specialty malts

>Subject: When to add crystal and other specialty malts
>
>Question for the "all grainers" out there:
>
>Should I be adding crystal, munich and other specialty malts during the
>regular mash or is it better to add them during mash out ? It seems to
me
>that if they are added to the mash their starch would be converted to
sugars
>by the base malt's enzymes. Will the flavor stay behind or be lost ?
OTOH if
>I add at mashout then starch conversion will not take place and the
wort will
>end up with unconverted starch. Is this good or bad ? I am confused.
What is
>the HBD concensus ? 
>
>Cheers
>Ian Smith
>isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com

Ian,

I believe the concensus will be to add everything to the mash rather
than adding them at the mash-out.  Depending on which specialty malts
you're talking about, especially crystals that are darker than 10-20 L
or so and anything as dark as chocolate or darker, you _could_ add them
at mash-out if you wanted too.  The issue I can see with that is the
affect on pH that these other grains have.  If you add them to the mash,
then add your salt additions to the mash and tune things to get the best
pH (say 5.3), then you can be pretty sure that your boil pH and
fermentation pH will be pretty darn close to perfect.  If you set up
your mash without the specialty grains and adjust the pH so that the
enzymes in the mash are optimized, then add the specialty grains at
mash-out, then you risk the boil pH being lowered too much and being
less than optimal.  Same goes for the fermentation pH.  You might even
end up making salt additions to the mash that would be inappropriate to
the style because the pH that you were optimizing did _not_ show the
affect of the specialty grains that are in the style that you are
brewing.  Since I brew mostly darker beers, this seems more of an issue
to me.  Brewing light ales and lagers that have small additions of
specialty grains may allow you to add the specialty grains to the
mash-out with less risk of imbalancing the pH in the boil and
fermentation.

Brian


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.

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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:53:18 -0400
From: jared froedetrt <froedter at pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Guiness and nutrition








Here's something i recieved in my mailbox from a friend.

Taken from Q&A in NEW SCIENTIST magazine:

Q. I have heard that it is possible to live on Guinness and milk alone. Is
   this true, or even partially true?

A. This is not quite true. Guinness does contain many vitamins and minerals
   in small quantities, but is lacking vitamin C, as well as calcium and fat.
   So, to fulfil all of your daily nutritional requirements you would need
   to drink a glass of orange juice, two glasses of milk, and 47 pints of
   Guinness.



_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/\
Jared Froedtert			    \
froedter at pilot.msu.edu		     |
Lansing, MI                                           /
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_/


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:33:09 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Classic American Pilsner (was Sam Adams clones)

In HBD 2489, Bob Fesnire (Dgofus at aol.com) of Pottstown, PA didn't ask the
question I herein answer:
>
>I am 8 months into my homebrewing career and seeing that fall is slowly
>approaching, I am preparing a wish list of beers to brew. I would like to
>tackle a few lager type brews this winter. Any help, suggestions or
>guidlines? I enjoy Sam Adams lager and would like a recipe for that. I also
>likew Marzen-Fest brews and would like to try. Any recipes would be very
>helpful. Can anyone reccomend good recipe books? What about the various
>brewing Magazines? Thanks in advance. Private E-mail OK.

Since you're willing to tackle a lager, how about brewing a really great
style that is truly a historic one, not just Jim Koch's grandfather's
pretend one (not that SA isn't a nice lager).  Specifically, a Classic
American Pilsner, which is what German and Bohemian brewers started making
when they arrived here in the last century and were faced with different
ingredients, most especially high protein barley.  The most fundamental
difference between CAP and European classic pilsners is CORN, about 20-25%.
That's right, I am advocating using an adjunct.  I know that most
homebrewers, especially in the beginning, want to make something completely
different from commercial American mega-brews, and this means strong, dark,
bitter and all malt.  But this is a great style, and American lagers were
all more or less this until they began to be watered down post-WWII.

Since I posted the praise of CAP in HBD #1687 (3/23/95) and wrote an
article in Brewing Techniques (Sept/Pct '95), this has become an AHA
recognized style, thanks to the efforts of Pete Garafalo, Del Lansing,
George Fix and others, and it has been doing well in competitions*
(againsts other classic Pilsners - German and Bohemian).  I still get an
unsolicited fan letter (from fans of the beer, not of me) every couple
weeks or so from someone who has just brewed it and has become another
enthusiastic convert.

My original recipe for "Your Father's Mustache" is in Cat's Meow at
http://brewery.org/brewery/cm3/recs/02_41.html.  I have since modified it
to a higher hopping level (low to mid 30's) and by using Hallertauer and/or
Saaz for first wort hopping (FWH) and late additions, all of which are
historically accurate.  Being a glutton for punishment, I also use corn
grits, which I mash separately with ~30% of the corn's weight of malt, then
boil 75 minutes and add to the main malt which has been resting at 40C,
then heat directly to 60C for 30 minutes, then heat to 70C for 30 minutes
before mashing out.  Flaked corn is much easier and is also authentic.
While I used Yeast Culture Kit Co. New Ulm yeast (perhaps Wyeast Am. lager
is the same?), I have had fine examples brewed with other lager yeasts.  I
still like Cluster hops for bittering.  Some character seems to remain,
which is also authentic.  I tried FWH with Cluster and got a "black
currant" flavor which I disliked.

* Post script - Since I wrote the above last week (but never got around to
sending it), my lastest iteration of "Your Father's Mustache" (described
above) took Best of Show in the 219 entry Michigan State Fair.  I say this
not to blow my own horn (well, maybe a little) but rather to try to
encourage more brewers to try this great style.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the
effects of drunkenness."  Oscar Wilde (1854-1900), Irish author, playwright
and wit.



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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:41:01 +1000
From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at squirrel.com.au>
Subject: Re:pH meters or ColorpHast?

Ian Smith asks
>Should I invest in a PH meter or just use the ColorPhast papers ? Does 
>anyone have any advice/experience ?

Which one doesn't have any circutry or probes that degrade, which one can be
dropped and is already calibrated, which one can be bought in only the range
you need (say 4 to 8) and which one can be used easily and accurately by a
reasonably intelligent Rhesus monkey?

BTW: the reference temp on the packet is important, the accuracy will be
+or- 0.2. Ask yourself, "if I was 0.2 off the ideal target in pH, would I
correct?" Not bloody likely, so 0.2 accuracy will  be enough. Never buy
cheap ones, ColorpHast is a good brand.

Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)



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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:56:39 +0000
From: Mark Warrington <warringt at erols.com>
Subject: Wyeast 1272 vs. 1056 American Ale yeasts

Can someone give me an idea of the difference in fermentation these two
yeasts exhibit? I have read that 1272 is "fruitier and more highly
flocculant" than the 1056. What will this do to a brown ale?
- -- 
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Warrington
warringt at erols.com


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:16:57 -0700
From: Randy Erickson <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: These Awful Things

Sheena McGrath, CAMRA member, urges us to avoid widgeted draft
brews because they're bland, gassy, and awful.

I admire CAMRA and envy a country that has an institution such as real
ale to preserve.  And when I was in the UK last year, I sought out real
ale whenever I could.

In the US however, and especially off the beaten path, this
less-than-ideal packaging is as good as it gets.  And it's a lot better than
the mega-swill we usually get.  I don't actually disagree with Sheena, but
I am in the "it's better than nothing" camp.

BTW, If you have a Trader Joe's store near you, you may want to get
down there soon.  They have an eight-pack of pint drafts called "Famous
Ales of England" for $8.  Two each of Boddingtons Pub Ale Draught,
Fuggles Imperial Draught, Castle Eden Ale Draught, and Flowers Original
Draught.  

Pretty decent, IMO.

Cheers -- Randy in Modesto


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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:33:34 -0700
From: Meercat <steveq at imagina.com>
Subject: re: Wheat Beer

In Digest #2494 Kevin MacRae asked the following:

>
>A few questions:
>1. Was swirling the 3056 batch a good idea? 
>
Since you are fermenting in a carboy, you can assume that there was a layer
of CO2 on the top of the krauesen and swirling the batch should not have
hurt it at all.

>2. Before swirling the carboy, was the 3056 batch 
>   in good shape (even though I saw no bubbling)?
>
Not really sure what shape it was in but I would assume it was going okay.
That must have been a really think head of krauesen on it though 8)

>3. I refuse to worry about introducing nasties into
>   the brew by collapsing the krausen, but is it 
>   a valid concern?
>
I doubt very much if you introduced any nasties into the brew by collapsing
the krauesen.  Actually, you might have gotten some hop resins back in but
if it took back off again like you said then they would probably be
deposited back into the gunk again anyway.  Not to worry I am sure.

>4. What happened?
>
Can't answer this one 8)

Steve
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve <<Meercat>> Quarterman - Homebrewer & Cybergolfer
Homebrewing homepage - http://zymurgy.dm.net/
Homebrewing chats    - irc.dm.net:6667 #zymurgy Channel
                      Fridays  at  10p Eastern

Personal HomePage - http://www.dm.net/~steveq/
ICQ UIN 109308  
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:48:33 -0400
From: PBSys at softhome.net
Subject: Re: Peristaltic Pump for RIMS

Peristaltic pumps will work fine. My question would be if 1 qt. per minute
would be enough flow, espescially if you had to pump up several feet. Most
RIMS use pumps that pump at 5 gal per min at 0' head

As to not having to be in contact with the pump head - Why would that make
a difference? You will still boil the wort after the mash.

The real negative is the cost. Most I've seen are in the 300 to 500 $ range

Bob
PBS URL http://www.wp.com/hosi/pbscat.html Brew Systems, Maxichiller & SS
Hopback

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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:54:00 -0400
From: Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Natural Gas vs. Propane, CO

>Don't discount carbon monoxide as another problem requiring ventilation.  I
>brew in a 2-1/2 car garage and use three propane fired Metal Fusion
>Products (Cajun) ring burners...the CO level reached three digits inside
of ten minutes
>and kept climbing.  Even with the garage doors open six inches, I still get
>dangerous double digit levels.

I use a SABCO RIMS fitted for natural gas.  in a basement room.  I have a
Nighthawk CO monitor.  When I start a burn the CO level spikes up to 50-60
ppm and then drops to 30-40.  This is with a modest size ceiling fan
venting to the outside and the room door open.  According to the brochure
50ppm is the max "continuous safe exposure level."  The alarm goes off if
>100 is reached.   With the door closed and the fan off I can quickly
trigger an alarm.

BTW, IMHO the SABCO provided jet burners aren't appropriate for the lower
pressure of natgas since anything less than wide open or more than one
burner on at a time creates a yellow candle flame.


- -- Art
asteinm at pipeline.com

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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:59:55 -0400
From: "Dulisse, Brian K [PRI]" <BDulisse at prius.jnj.com>
Subject: hmm . . .

got this from a friend, thought i'd pass it along.  i'm pretty 
skeptical . . .

- ----------


> >Courtesy of Pete's Wicked Ale....
> >
> >It was the accepted practice in Babylonia 4,000 years ago that for 
a
month
> >after the wedding, the bride's father would supply his son-in-law
with all
> >the mead he could drink.  Mead is a honey beer, and because their
calendar
> >was lunar based, this period was called the "honey month"  - or 
what
we know
> >today as the "honeymoon".
> >
> >Before thermometers were invented, brewers would dip a thumb or
finger into
> >the mix to find the right temperature for adding yeast.  Too cold,
and the
> >yeast wouldn't grow.  Too hot, and the yeast would die.  This 
thumb
in the
> >beer is where we get the phrase "rule of thumb".
> >
> >In English pubs, ale is ordered by pints and quarts.  So in old
England, when
> >customers got unruly, the bartender would yell at them to mind 
their
own
> >pints and quarts and settle down.  It's where we get the phrase 
"mind
your
> >P's and Q's".
> >
> >Beer was the reason the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock.  It's 
clear
from
> >the Mayflower's log that the crew didn't want to waste beer 
looking
for a
> >better site.  The log goes on to state that the passengers "were
hasted
> >ashore and made to drink water that the seamen might have the more
beer".
> >
> >After consuming a bucket or two of vibrant brew they called aul, 
or
ale, the
> >Vikings would head fearlessly into battle often without armor or 
even
shirts.
> > In fact, the term "berserk" means "bare shirt" in Norse, and
eventually took
> >on the meaning of their wild battles.
> >
> >In 1740 Admiral Vernon of the British fleet decided to water down 
the
navy's
> >rum.  Needless to say, the sailors weren't too pleased and called
Admiral
> >Vernon, Old Grog, after the stiff wool grogram coats he wore. The
term "grog"
> >soon began to mean the watered down drink itself.  When you were
drunk on
> >this grog, you were "groggy," a word still in use today.
> >
> >Many years ago in England, pub frequenters had a whistle baked 
into
the rim
> >or handle of their ceramic cups.  When they needed a refill, they
used the
> >whistle to get some service.  "Wet your whistle," is the phrase
inspired by
> >this practice.
> >
> >In the middle ages, "nunchion" was the word for liquid lunches. 
 It
was a
> >combination of the words "noon scheken," or noon drinking.  In 
those
days, a
> >large chunk of bread was called lunch.  So if you ate bread with 
your
> >nunchion, you had what we still today call a luncheon.


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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:04:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Lids/caramalts/IPAs/122F

Regarding boiling with or without lids.  Once you obtain a good hard boil
it is highly desirable to boil without the lid.  Condensation of the 
water vapor needs to be prevented from returning to the boil kettle.
It does not taste good and contains all types of harsh compounds that
one does not want in the wort.

<To all the micro brewers out there... Don't be afraid, it's ok to use hops!

I have yet to hear someone tell me that Victorys HopDevil IPA is underhopped!
In fact I hear it compared with other aggressive IPAs including Anderson
Valley and Bear Republics.

<From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
<Subject: 122F hold

Dave, the need for a 122F rest is pretty much gone.  I know several 
Bavarian brewmasters with Weihenstephan Diploms who routinely dough
in around 132-135F with German pils malts in the hope of retaining
some minimum degree of head retention.  Ill stick with the opinions 
and practices of Diploms and Prof Narziss on this one.  I also think
you should go back and read Fix's posts on this subject, in particular
his 40/60/70C mash program.  Or better yet, get some German Pils malz
(Durst and Weyermann are good examples) and do a few pilot brews using
a 15-30 min rest at 122F on one and a 15-30 min rest at 132F on the
other.  BTW, I have a two part series on this subject running in the
current and next issue of Brewing Techniques.

<Can anyone explain the difference (if any) between the Belgian caramel malts
(CaraVienne, CaraMunich, etc) and say British crystal malt of similar color?
<I assume that different base malts are used, but are different processes
<used, or are they pretty much the same animal?  For example, if I made two
<ales using identical base malt, but in one I used 60L crystal and in the
<other I used CaraMunich, what differences between the finished beers might I
<expect?

Cara-, Crystal and caramel all refer to the same type of malting process,
so the same type of color malts are made.  The differences arise from the
source of the barley, many US caramel malts originate from 6 row barley
but some maltsters are now making 2 row caramel malts.  Other differences
arise from the genetic type of barley grown and the regional effects
of climate and soil on the barley.  Other differences arise from the 
culture of malting in each county.  Be sure to get good numbers on 
lovibond/SRM for each type of malt and experiment away.  So while each
is similar you can find unique differences in the finished beer.

Prost!

Jim Busch

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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:23:19 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Brainless in Botswana

Dear Friends,

Thanks to all who gently reminded me of probably the most important 
reason to choose to remain lidless: allowing DMS to escape the 
boiler.  I *knew* that, really, I did.  Really.

Ken S. asks, what if there were no rhetorical questions? To which I 
can only respond "Apathy? Who cares about apathy?"

Cheers,

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
 ...we are usually at the mercy of gravity. ---A.J. deLange


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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:02:20 -0500
From: Paul Sovcik <pjs at uic.edu>
Subject: Hop growing - tales from the backyard

I have finally started my hop harvest from my second and third year hop
plants, and I thought I might relate my experiences to those who are
considering hop farming.  I started this a few years ago and was unable to
get much of the information I needed (even with the help of the net), so
maybe this post will help someone out there....

  I have three hop plants, a Fuggle, Cascade and an Eroica.  All of these
are planted against a six foot high wooden fence, with a trellis-like top
occupying the top 12 inches of the fence.  I was unsure how the plants
would do on such a low fence, but my yard/wife simply wouldnt support 15
foot high hop poles.

   The Cascade is in full sun, the Fuggle and Eroica get sun 60-70% of the
day.
Fertilization and watering were spotty (at least by me), but we had a good
amount of rain this summer, so I wasnt worrying.  To survive, these plants
would need to be low-maintainence plants.  The only care they recieved was
for me to weave the new growth horizontally along the top part of the fence
every few days so the plant wouldnt keep growing up without support and
eventually snap the bines (which happened once during a period of extremely
fast growth).

  The results?   A huge supply of hops from the Cascade plant - presumably
related to the fact that it is in full sun.  I have harvested half the
plant or less, and already have a Playmate cooler full of cones.  The
Fuggle has not produced the same amount, but it looks like at least half
the harvest of the Cascade.  The Eroica has not been much of a producer at
all, but this is probably because I have been discriminating against it
from the start since I planted it too closely to the Fuggle and I would
rather have Fuggle than Eroica hops at harvest.

  Problems?  Well, the Cascade plant has some strange disease/parasite that
has been marching up it, attacking the old growth first and causing the
leaves to turn brown/rust color and die.  The tips of the scales on the
older cones are affected too, I think.  I have no idea what this could be -
my books dont give much help.  My other problem is drying these cones on an
industrial (to me) scale.  I am going to pick every few days and spread
them on screens in my back shed to dry.  I guess I will be packaging in
Ziplock bags, since my old method of baby jars will exceed my supply of
baby jars by quite a bit!

Hope this helped those of you who are botanically challenged and who are
vertically challenged in your garden.  If a doof like me can grow hops,
anyone can.

  Also, if anyone in the Chicago area wants an Eroica plant, Ill be happy
to dig it up for you!  Fuggle and Cascade rhizomes are also yours for the
taking!


 -paul
Paul Sovcik
Western Springs, IL    PJS at uic.edu

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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:47:18 -0400
From: "Kerr, David" <David.Kerr at ummc.ummed.edu>
Subject: Salvator/Celis/starch

Nathan asks:
"...What contributes to that beautiful nuttiness in Salvator?"
Decoction mash - or do they pressure cook?  ;-)
and
 ..."my impression from posts here is that Pierre uses malted wheat in
Celis White.  Any truth to this? " 
Look at http://www.celis.com/beer/beer.html for some good info - 50% raw
Texas winter wheat is used.

Eric Fouch writes:
"*Never* do you want to let starches get into the fermenter]  I'm taking
a chance using the "N" word"
Never except when brewing pLambic, Wit, etc. - they can benefit from
unconverted starches by providing food for lactic acid producing
bacteria.

Dave Kerr  "Be good and you will be lonely" - Mark Twain

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Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mail.usask.ca
From: Mark T A Nesdoly <mtn290 at mail.usask.ca>
Subject: Nuttiness

Hello all,

Nathan asks about nuttiness in Salvator in HBD #2494.  I don't know how it's
achieved in Salvator, but I can tell you how to achieve it yourself.

I just finished reading Ray Daniels' book _Designing Breat Beers_ (excellent
read, BTW).  In his chapter covering porters, he listed a couple of vague
recipes from the early 1800s that caught my eye.  Their major ingredients
were pale, amber and brown malt.  He also included a step-by-step "how to"
in order to create your own amber & brown malt.  So I brewed a batch of
brown porter, with amber & brown malt each making up about 30% of the grist.

When I was finished grinding the grain, I was overwhelmed by the smell of...
peanut butter!  While I was mashing, again, the smell of peanut butter!  The
wort tasted fantastic;  I can't wait until it's done fermenting.

If you're interested, here's the directions to make amber & brown malt:

Spread pale malt to a depth of 1/2" to 3/4" in a cookie sheet.  I can fit
about 3 lbs on my cookie sheet.

Roast the malt accordingly (it's not necessary to stir the grain;  I didn't,
and the roast was very consistent throughout the pan):
Amber malt:
230 F  45 minutes
300 F  45 - 50 minutes
You know you're done when the colour inside a few cut-open grains is
uniformly "light buff".  I have no idea what colour "buff" is, but that's
the way that Ray Daniels puts it.  Mine looked beige.

Brown malt:
Same procedure as for amber malt, then:
350 F  30 minutes
You know you're done when the inside of the grains looks like the colour of
the lighter shades of brown wrapping paper.

- -- Mark


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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 09:43 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: 122F Rest - some real world data

Dave B. responds to (the other) Charley on 122F rest:

(the other charley says):
>Actually I criticise the suggestion that it's a worthwhile rest at all.
>I'd recommend you obliterate it from your library before children or
 >other innocents see it.

(dave b. says)
Well, Charley, I would like to see the evidence
 from which you formed your opinion, since most
 of the commercial brewing world, as far as I know,
  and all of the authors I know of say that a 122F(50C)
  rest is suggested and is practiced.

(Charley b(me)) says:
I went over to the local brewpub yesterday and had lunch with a friend
and spent a good 15 minutes discussing this issue with the brewer. Bill
makes excellent beers, has the state and national ribbons to prove it in
addition to a thriving brewpub. I went at the question a roundabout way
and asked him about chill haze. He said that for both his "Big, But
Blonde" and "Sloughouse Pale Ale" (both Cal State Fair winners) employ
at 120F rest for 15-20 minutes before boosting to sacharification temps.
He uses 100% domestic malts in these two beers, keeping the grain bills
very simple. They are both light in body, but have plenty to hold up the
hops and alcohol.

As I stated the other day, I fooled around with 135F rest and it worked
ok, but I didn't see a huge benefit. My next light ale will use a 120F
for 15-20 minutes. I may even go buy some domestic pale ale (I normally
use English) malt to try it. Anyway, Bill said he did have a slight
chill haze problem until he added that 120F rest.

So, works great in theory, but will it work in reality?

Charley (making a barleywine this weekend) in N. Cal.




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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 09:44 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re:cold break separation

Jorge Blasig (in hbd2494) asks about separating trub from wort in the
kettle. Here's what works for me:

After cooling the wort down to less than 80F (my ale target anyway)
swirl the chiller around in the cool wort to form a whirlpool. Swirl as
fast as you can without sloshing the wort out of the kettle. Then pull
out the chiller, cover the kettle and let it sit for at least 10
minutes. I ususally let mine sit for 20 minutes while I do cleanup, get
yeast ready and finish up with sanitation.

After the wort sits for a while, you'll find all the trub and hop spooge
in a pile in the middle of the kettle bottom. Then just syphon from the
edges working the tip of the racking cane down the side of the kettle
till you get to the bottom.

In my case there's always 1.5 to 2 quarts of gunk left at the bottom. I
let this sit overnight outside (covered) where its cool. The next
morning I pour this through a very fine strainer into a quart jar. This
becomes my starter wort for future brews. I stick in the fridge and when
I need it, I reboil it for a few minutes (no botulism, ecoli or ebola),
chill and pitch the starter pack.

By the way, your beer should be fine as long as you don't leave in the
primary with all that trub for any longer than it takes to finish
primary fermentation. Rack to a secondary when it settles down.

Charley

- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Burns, Director, Information Systems
Elk Grove Unified School District
cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us, http://www.egusd.k12.ca.us
916-686-7710 (voice), 916-686-4451 (fax)


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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 10:09 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: BJCP Training - Its FUN!

I really look forward to our monthly Homebrew Club meetings. We do a little 
business, have a raffle or two and then get down to serious stuff - 
evaluating and tasting the style of the month, both commercial and homebrew 
examples. Now imagine doing just the fun part (evaluating and consuming) and 
doing it every week!

Last night I hosted the first of 10 meetings of our study group for the next 
10 weeks. I imagined a boring night of memorizing styles, history, 
ingredients. Boy was I wrong! Our study group leader expects us to do that 
boring stuff on our own time and come prepared to dive right in to serious 
evaluations. Well, sort of serious. I heard more off color humor last night 
in two hours than I've heard in the last two years.

So, what did I learn on my first night? Its good to host the meetings so you 
don't have to drive home afterward. We did light lagers last night and we 
must have sampled 9 different ones. Without a doubt, Pilsener UrQuell stood 
out from all of them. I know, that won't help me judge but it sure was a 
great beer. All the beers from Germany seem to come in green bottles, while 
American ones are all brown. Just never noticed that before. And I learned 
my nose needs LOTS of training. Of all the judging criteria, aroma must be 
the most difficult and most subjective.

I guess the funniest part was when we found out Brian, the study group 
leader, is slightly allergic to hops! Every time he sniffed a hoppy beer he 
let out a little sneeze. Brian is our human hop detector!

Well, its a tough job (judging) but somebody's got to do it, right? I really 
enjoyed the meeting with Brian, Brian and Beth and look forward to the next 
9 weeks. I may not take the test or I may not pass it, but by gawd, this is 
really going to be fun!

Charley (in training)


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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:40:53 -0500
From: Glyn Crossno <Crossno at novell2.tn.cubic.com>
Subject: Thanks

It took awhile, but finally the first all grain batch.  Other than not
having enough hands and one hand having blisters from cracking 20 lbs.
of grain on the homemade mill.  The rectangular cooler with slotted
copper manifold worked well.  Gravity was a little low, which I
contribute that to the mill and my batch sparge technique.  Both of
which will be better next time.

Thanks,
Glyn
Estill Springs, TN

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:55:08 +0000
From: jshope at bioserver.vsb.usu.edu (Joe Shope)
Subject: storage temps

Brethren,

My brewing partner and I recently brewed an IPA.  After bottling we 
split the beer and each took 1 case.  My beer is stored in my 
basement (60-65F) and his at his house (80-90F).  The beer is now 4 
weeks old (born/bottled on 7/27/97) and while mine is intense and 
fresh my partner's has an off taste to it.  Since there was no 
selection in the bottling process I have concluded that the storage 
temperature must be the cause of the flavor change.  I did look at a 
sample under a microscope and didn't find any "nasties".  We drank 
a couple of my bottles and he said they were not even close to the 
flavor of his.  My questions are:

1.)  Has anyone else experienced warm temperatures causing 
deteriation of flavor?
2.)  Is there a temperature at which this begins to occur?
3.)  Is there any data on temperature / flavor?

I searched through the old digests and found similar questions, but 
no responses to them.


Joe Shope
Head Brewer / Bottle Washer
Apostate Brewing, Co
Cache Valley, UT

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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:02:14 -0700
From: Chas Douglass <ChasD at Halcyon.Com>
Subject: Redhook Winterhook Recipe Request

I've searched both Cat's Meow and the HBD archive and haven't found
one.  Does anyone have one they would share?  I'm an extract brewer, but
I'm comfortable converting recipes, so I'll take whatever you might
have.

Redhook advertises Winterhook as a "christmas ale" (or was that "winter
ale"?, anyway) so I'm open to other suggestions as well, but I'd really
like a Winterhook clone.

advTHANKSance

Chas Douglass

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Date: 28 Aug 1997 16:35 CDT
From: "Bryan Cronk" <bcronk at nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: No-Sparge Gravity Prediction

To Charles Burns' question:

My plan is to take only the first runnings and make only 2.5 to 3 gallons of
finished beer. Question is, how do I predict the gravity of first runnings?"

Ken Schwartz replies:

Predicitng OG for no-sparge and batch-sparge recipes is not much different
than for "normal" recipes, you just need to think about how much sugar you're
getting into how much volume of water.

[stuff deleted]

The idea now is to divide the *total points* by the *total volume* to get
specific gravity.  Your total points (i.e., total sugar) stays fixed; the
more volume you have (via sparging or straight dilution, for example), the
lower your SG, but it's the same *amount* of sugar.  
- --------------------

This would be true if you assume that you will capture all of the sugar 
that's in the mash in the first runnings.  However, this isn't the case
at all.  If it were, there would be no need to sparge - just take the
first runnings, add water, and boil.

In order to determine how much sugar you left in the mash kettle,  I'd
say some imperical study is in order.  This doesn't help you in estimating
your O.G. unless you brew another beer first, but I'd suggest that the
S.G. of the first runnings (normalized) as a percentage of the total S.G. 
(again, normalized based on some given volume) is a constant, providing you 
are using the same ratio of mash water to grain, and you drain all of the 
mash water.  Once you know this constant, you can apply it to any beer.

Of course, the caveat is that I may be all wrong about this, but
hey, it sounds good.

Cheers,
Bryan Cronk
Raleigh, NC

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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 00:32:47 UT
From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <DONVANV at classic.msn.com>
Subject: Ornamental hops 

Regarding the recient thread on ornamental hops -- it is possible they could 
be usable for brewing.  Here is something I posted a while back on two common 
ornamentals.  

Sunbeam was developed and registered as an ornamental hop by Al Haunold 
(recently retired) who at Corvallis, Oregon,  developed many hops currently in 
use today; Mt. Hood, Ultra, Crystal, Willamette just to name a few.    Sunbeam 
was registered with the USDA as an ornamental hop, along with its sister hop 
Bianca.  However, the literature also says that it could be used for brewing 
purposes.  Here are some excerpts from the registration that was filed with 
the USDA:

"Sunbeam and Bianca originated from a cross made by geneticist Alfred Haunold 
in 1990 on the diploid virus-free selection Saazer 38 (USDA #21522) with a 
tetraploid European-type aroma male (USDA #21617M)."  Both Sunbeam and Bianca 
are diploids, which supports the assumption of open pollination.  

"Sunbeam has bright colored red stems throughout the growing season, which 
makes it particularly attractive in contrast to its yellow lemon-colored 
foliage.  It is a female hop which matures early to medium early (about Aug. 
25 in W. Oregon) with medium low yield potential.  The cones are of medium 
size and yellowish green.  Sunbeam's quality characteristics, largely 
inherited from the Saazer mother,  are 4-5% alpha acids, 2.5 % beta acids, a 
cohumulone content of 36 percent, and an oil content similar to that of Saazer 
(about 1-1.2 ml/100g)."

"Sunbeam and Bianca were observed as single plants for three years in an aroma 
breeding nursery near Corvallis, Oregon where they grew vigorously in early 
spring and reached the top of the trellis (5.5 meters) at approximately the 
same time as other seedlings or commercial cultivars growing nearby.  Their 
foliage remained brilliantly yellow throughout the spring and early summer but 
showed some burning in mid- to late summer in direct sunlight, brobably due to 
insufficient protection by reduced chlorophyll pigmentation in the leaves.  in 
semi-shade or in the greenhouse, under simulated semi-shaded conditions, 
leaves remained attractive and undamaged throuhout the growing season."

Hope this is helpfull.
Don Van Valkenburg
DONVANV at MSN.COM

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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:01:44 -0300
From: Christopher Tkach <tkach at ctron.com>
Subject: Fruit Beer Question?

Hi All-

I just finished racking a blueberry ale into the tertiary fermentor.
I measured the SG and it was at 1.010, and when I tasted it, it was
a bit sour, not an infection sour, but a blueberry sour, which I'm
assuming came from the blueberries, it does have a slight blueberry
flavor but its masked by the sourness that is present.

So I was thinking about adding some dextrose before bottling to help
raise the SG a bit and maybe bring the blueberry taste to the front
perhaps, while masking the sourness a bit.  Has anyone attempted this
with any success?  My recipe is below...any help would be appreciated.

 - Chris

For 5.0 gal...
      4 lbs 2-Row Klages (MASH)
      0.5 lbs Crystal 10L (German Light) (MASH)
      0.5 lbs Wheat Malt (MASH)
      0.5 lbs Cara-Pils Dextrine (MASH)
      3 lbs Light Dry Malt Extract (EXTRACT)
      0.5 lbs Crystal 50L (English) (MASH)
      1 oz Cascade 3.3% BOIL 60 minutes
      0.5 oz Willamette 4.8% FINISHING 5 minutes
      1 tsp Irish Moss
      1 pkg Wyeast 1007 German Ale (stepped up w/ starter)
      1.0 lbs Frozen Blueberries (handpicked, steeped 15min at end
                                  of boil)
      3.25 lbs Defrosted Blueberries (handpicked, added to secondary)

Infusion mash at 154F (no protein rest, no mash out, although it did
                       stick!)

OG = 1.056
SG = 1.017 (when racked to secondary)

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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:30:16 +0000
From: Natalie Martina <nmartina at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: starch in fermenter/Driving Miss DMS

Eric.Fouch at STC001 begs me to respond:

> Ian asks about when to add specialty malts.  I'm sure you'll get lots of
> responses, but since I'm already here- *Never* do you want to let starches get
> into the fermenter]  I'm taking a chance using the "N" word, and maybe
> somebody will find an example to the contrary, but 'till then, I'll
> reiterate, NEVER let starch get into the fermenter. 

In lambic brewing a kind of backwards decoction mash called a "turbid"
mash is used to extract starch from the mash.  This starch makes it to
the fermenter and serves to nourish slower-growing/later appearing bugs
in the long lambic ferment, since the starch is not utilized by the
first rounds of fermentation.

*********************

I have always wanted to comment on the "vigorous boil to drive off DMS"
concept, and since it has been brought up again, I will.  Speaking as
someone who has a vial of pure DMS lying around I can say that it is
some of the most volatile stuff I've ever experienced.  Opening the
vial in a laboratory fume hood fills the room with the dead crab
aroma characteristic of high concentrations of DMS, despite ft/sec
air flow rates in the other direction!  Is it really possible that
a lid heated by continuous condensation of steam could really condense
a significant amount of DMS?  And if so, wouldn't a short period of lid-
lessness at the end of the boil suffice to eliminate this problem?

  I'm really:
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
  using my wife's account.

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