---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Punkin beer / messy mash (Alex Flinsch)
  Breweries in Monterey ("Ian Wilson")
  Converting pre-boil SG to post-boil SG (Loren Crow)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Fwd: Rob Moline and the Little Apple Debacle (Brewboy1)
  Hop prices (Miguel de Salas)
  Summary - fridge wont cool / mead request ("Keith Royster")
  New York State HB Laws (Gus)
  Re: Fridge won't get cold (Tidmarsh Major)
  Re: Bottle/Keg Alternative? (Jeff Renner)
  First mash (Wesley McDaniel)
  k&b alts, excess glass (haafbrau1)
  Roasting Already-Crushed Malt Take II / Gott Step Mashing (KennyEddy)
  Is it homebrew? ("Alan McKay")
  ice water immersion chiller (Jeff Sturman)
  Re: Entire Butt (cont'd) (Steve Jackson)
  Re:  GABF ("Brian M. Rezac")
  AHA BofA Minutes, AOB 990 (Jim Liddil)
  Russian rye bread beer (DoubleDDD)
  Iodine test (korz)
  Hop suppliers (korz)
  FWH, HSA (George J Fix)
  real homebrew? ("Bryan L. Gros")
  re:butt (Charles Burns)
  fridge dampness (Forrest Duddles)
  Sparge Volume Calculation ("Ian Wilson")
  RE: Stuck Stout ("Capt. Marc Battreall")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Flinsch <well_of_latis at geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Punkin beer / messy mash

>Whether you gut a fresh pumpkin, or use canned pumpkin, the stuff is mostly
>starch and MUST BE MASHED.  If you're an extract-only brewer this can be
>troublesome and is not recommended as a first foray into mashing.  Pumpkin
>mashes are messy.  Mash with at least an equal weight of six-row (the extra
>fraction of husk will aid in the sparge).  A "protein rest" is useful.  122F
>or 135F? (oh no)  Perhaps our resident chemistry experts can expand on this
>(remember -- it's pumpkin, not malted barley...).


Very useful information. There is a way to make the pumpkin mash a little
less messt, however. Do the mash inside of a hollowed out pumpkin. I have
done this in the past and it works fairly well, and the cleanup is fairly
easy, just dump the whole thing into the compost pile when done.
Alex                            |http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/1366/ 
well_of_latis at www.geocities.com |               Pagan Brewing 
Sparrowhawk at worldnet.att.net    |  /|\              on the web  
                                | / | \               Since 1997
   


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Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:48:51 -0700
From: "Ian Wilson" <ianw at sosinet.net>
Subject: Breweries in Monterey

I have to be in Monterey on business next week. Does anyone know of or can
anyone recomend a brewery / brewpub or two to visit?

Before the angry replies, I've checked the pub list sites and it would seem
like awfully slim pickin's for a yuppie tourist location.

Private email is OK.

Ian Wilson
ianw at sosinet.net

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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 00:15:29 -0500
From: crowld at rapidramp.net (Loren Crow)
Subject: Converting pre-boil SG to post-boil SG

Does anyone have a formula for predicting the SG of 6 gallons (post-boil)
of wort on the basis of a pre-boil measurement? I don't like to take
measurements after the boil, if I can help it, because of sanitation.

Thanks!
Loren


==========================================================================
# Loren D. Crow, Ph.D.     ++ Office Phone:  (903) 927-3219              #
# Department of Religion   ++          Fax:  (903) 938-8100              #
# Wiley College            ++                                            #
# 711 Wiley Avenue         ++ Email: crowld at rapidramp.net                #
# Marshall, TX  75670      ++ WWW: http://www.rapidramp.net/Users/crowld #
==========================================================================

The unexamined life is not worth living.
                           - Socrates



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 00:15:59 PDT
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

>From: KennyEddy at aol.com
		The Jethro Gump Report

>Subject: Kiss My Entire Butt / 135 Rest
>Sorry about the subject line -- couldn't resist.

	If you hadn't said it, someone else would have!     ;-)

>  Just shows to go you how much things have changed in malt
>processing since the "classics" we rely on so much were written.  Will
there
>be a new "Textbook of Brewing" published before the millenium?

	You will be pleased to know that Siebel, I think, is working on a new
"Practical Brewer," They asked on the IBS Forum for suggestions from the
pro-brewers, as they intend to include a section on micro-brewing.

>From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
>Subject: GABF
>
>Does anyone know when the Great American Beer Festival starts this year >?

	October 2 - 4th. Thursday the 2nd from 4:30 -10 pm will be the Members
Only Session, and Awards ceremony.

>From: Greg_T._Smith at notes.pw.com
>Subject: Bottle/Keg Alternative?
>
>I am planning a tailgate party in a couple of weeks.  I am trying
>to figure a way to get some homebrew there, but they do not allow
>any bottles or kegs (which they consider to be anything under 
>pressure, eliminating mini-kegs, Party Pigs, and the like).  Is
>there any alternative left for me to use? 

	Can't say that I've ever done it....(hmmmmmm), but I do know a fella that
brought beer into a city park that didn't allow ETOH, by filling a 3 litre
soda PET bottle with beer that matched the color of the original product.

>From: Eric  Tepe <tepee0 at chmcc.org>
>Subject: polyclar question
>
>   Will polyclar work if you chill your beer (to
>below 40F)  to get the chill haze to come out of solution or will it only
>work while the haze causing compounds are in solution?

	I am confused by your question, but polyclar will work below 40 F, and it
will precipitate the haze compounds in solution to the bottom of the vessel.

Jeff Kenton asks about Dry Yeast Suppliers....
	I know, I know, most folk's disagree with me on this, but (ahem) ..."My
name is Jethro, and I have a problem". ..snif, snif.. I like dry yeast." 
	Got nuthin' ag'in the wet stuff, but I recommend Lallemand products,
distributed by Scott Labs in California....sold to the micro and some mega
breweries, you'd be surprised to learn which mega's use it, I was told by
the president of Lallemand, Jean Chagnon, when he visited the LABCO. No, he
wouldn't tell me, as his agreement calls for non-disclosure.
	Whle I don't think that a 500 gram brick is what most homebrewers are
after, I could see your HB shop owners getting some for those that might
want to split a pack. Don't know what it costs at retail, but at least you
wouldn't have to worry about underpitching, when you could pull 25 - 50
grams or so from a pack.

Cheers!
JG

Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"

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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:58:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brewboy1 at aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Rob Moline and the Little Apple Debacle


- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Rob Moline and the Little Apple Debacle
Date:    97-09-10 02:52:14 EDT
From:    Brewboy1
To:      homebrew at hdb.org

Before I begin, let me apologize for the amount of bandwith this post may
take.  I hope you will allow me to "borrow" the space as what I have to say
is VERY important.

Yesterday, September 8th while scanning the brewing boards on AOL, I came
across the following post:

From:  Bkkimbro at aol.com        

Hey folks.  My name is Bret Kimbrough and I am the head brewer at the Little
Apple Brewing Co. in Manhattan, KS.  Last year, our brewery won the gold
medal in the Barleywine Style Ale category at GABF.  Since the recipe was
that of the former head brewer, I don't plan to ever make this beer again, so
I thought I would share the recipe with you.  This is the seven barrel
recipe, but I am sure you all can readily scale it down to the capacity of
your home brewery.  Again, this is not my recipe, so I can't answer questions
which are too specific about it, but I will try to help you with it if I can.

- -- lbs. Pale Ale Malt
- --- lbs. 2 Row Malt
- --- lbs. Caramel --

- -- oz. (Stuff) in the mash liquor
We filter all of our brewing liquor.

strike into --- bbl of 15? degree mash liquor
due to a power failure during the mash, mash time was 2 hrs.

in the boil:
boil is 90 min.
alpha acid content is not recorded for the hops. Sorry.  I think the total
alpha acids were in the high ?0' to low ?0's.
? lbs Some hops at 60 min.
?lbs Some hops at 60 min.
Irish Moss at 15 minutes
? lbs. Some hops at end of boil

Original gravity was --- plato
Final gravity was --- plato

I hope this works for you.  Take care folks.          -Bret

Now, in the interest of not divulging Jethro's greatest recipe, I have
omitted the actual numbers and hop varieties that Mr. Kimbrough posted to the
boards.  Trust me, the numbers he posted were the real deal.  For those of
you on AOL you will not see this post anymore as it has been removed from the
brewing boards as well.  However, IMO my Kimbrough has just committed one of
the biggest SINS in the brewing world.  I sent him the following email
commenting on the nature of his post-

Bret,

This is just a short email to let you know that by posting the recipe for the
Little Apple barleywine, you have just violated the unwritten code of ethics
concerning brewing.  Though I am not a friend of Mr. Moline's, I wish to
express my anger over the posting of HIS gold medal winning recipe.  This is
not an issue for discussion.   These things just do not happen.  You do not
publicly give away this information no matter what the circumstances may be.
 Perhaps, you should have thought about your brewing future before posting to
the homebrew recipe board.  While you may find favor from the homebrewing
crowd for such a post, you will never win the respect of fellow brewers for
selling out a great beer and fellow brewer.  Your post does nothing and works
only as a means of announcing to the world that you have taken the place of a
very well respected brewer in the community.  Next time you send out a press
release, think about its ramifications.  The brewers code is very seriously
upheld and not something to play around with. 

If you feel I am being harsh, I can direct you to the brewers forum on AOL
where we can gladly ask the other brewers  about their opinions concerning
this matter.  I hope this incident doesn't haunt your future brewing
endeavors.  KARMA is a nasty thing to mess with!

Wondering out loud,
Tomme Arthur

Now, I have been a long time reader of the HDB and I am well aware of the
struggles of one Jethro Gump- friend of the program.  This was the final
straw in the proverbial hat and I have decided to lend my support to the
cause even though I have never met Rob nor visited Kansas.

For those of you in the land of the digest not familiar with Rob and his
struggles I have two comments.  First, where have you been and second, check
the archives you'll be amazed at the crap he endured.  No brewer should ever
have to go through what he did.  Most of you probably also understand the
brewing code of ethics I described.  Most if not all of us have brewing
secrets and "information" that should not be shared with others no matter
what the circumstances.  This is one of those instances.

Mr Kimbrough stood to gain nothing by his initial posting of the recipe.  He
used to the post to legitamize his hiring among the many homebrewers who
subscribe to AOL.  And, while the post has been retracted, the recipe is out
there and now a matter of public record in brewing circles.

Inevitably, the question that comes to mind is what should we do about this
post and the individual who released it?  Well, if you read Mr. Kimbrough's
initial post, he states: "this is not my recipe, so I can't answer questions
which are too specific about it, but I will try to help you with it if I
can."  Aha, that's seems so easy.  Perhaps if I have reached the nerve I was
hoping to reach, you see where I am going with this post.

Mr. Kimbrough has actually invited each and everyone of us to ask questions
about this beer.  Personally, I should thank him for extending the invitation
by taking him up on the offer, yet I think I already spoiled any chances with
my first email.  So, my suggestion to the entire HDB is to come up with some
questions for Mr. Kimbrough since he has so graciously offered this recipe to
the world.  I should prompt those of you interested in this line of
questioning to keep it simple since he he did say "this is not my recipe, so
I can't answer questions which are too specific about it, but I will try to
help you with it if I can."  Once again, the address is bkkimbro at aol.com

I have been giving this issue much thought and I believe some of the most
appropriate questions might be along the following lines:

1.) What is a Barleywine?
2.) Why is it called Barleywine?
3.) What color is the Barleywine?
4.) How's it taste?

My guess is we can all unite on this issue and help the Jethro cause once
again.

I have borrowed enough bandwith for now,
Please, do what you feel is right, but at the very least send Rob some
support.
His address is brewer at ames.net
And FOR ALL OF YOU WHO MISSED THE EARLIER ADDRESS OF MR. KIMBROUGH, IT IS
bkkimbro at aol.com.  I think his wife gets mail at this address as well so you
might want to send her your condolences or love whichever you feel is most
appropriate!

Some people continue to amaze me,

Tomme Arthur
Head Brewer
Pizza Port Brewery, Solana Beach CA.

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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:23:15 +1000
From: Miguel de Salas <mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Hop prices

Lorne P. Franklin wrote:

>In light of Jethro's report of 1997 hop crops being affected by blight and
>the liklihood of prices rising, ya'll may want to stock up on supplies now
>from Hoptech (800/dry-hops; http://www.hoptech.com/index.html).

I don't know about US hops, but some European hops, especially Moravian Saaz
from the Czeck Republic (arguably the best hop for pilseners) and some
German and Polish hops have had the crop completely wiped out by the massive
flooding during summer. I expect those prices to increase dramatically as well.
Miguel.


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:39:17 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: Summary - fridge wont cool / mead request

Thanks to everyone who responded to my problem of my new used fridge
not cooling down very well.  Since mine would actually cool a
little, I was hoping that it was not a freon problem because those
are difficult and expensive to fix, as many of you pointed out. 
Luckily, the solution seems to have been much simpler.  Here is a
brief summary of the suggestions I received, plus my solution:

1) Put something in the fridge for it to cool.  They need a thermal 
mass to cool down, otherwise the thermostat will keep tripping itself 
and turning off too soon.

2) Clean the condensor coils.  One guy reported that mice had built a 
nest in his and once he cleaned it the fridge was able to cool from 
about 60dF down to about 40dF.  Mine need cleaning, but they aren't 
that bad.

3) Check the condensor fan.  If the fan isn't blowing air across the
coils, then they can't dissipate their heat very well.  This seems to
have been exactly my problem.  There was a big wad of old insulation
stuck in the fan blades.  Once I removed it the fan ran fine. This
morning my fridge had cooled from about 50dF to in the low 20's, plus
a 2L plastic bottle of water in the freezer had become ice. 

Thanks so all of those that helped!  Now I finally have one fridge to 
ferment/lager in and another to serve from.  Now if I can just 
convince my wife to get me some taps for the new fridge for my 
birthday or Xmas.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

On another note, my father-in-law has honey connections in Orlando 
through his family citrus business.  He got me about 11# of honey for 
free, so I'm interested in making my first mead.  However, in a 
recent visit with Dave Burley (hey Dave!  I enjoyed the visit!) he 
expressed concern that the orange blossom honey might have some 
strong flavors compared with the milder clover honey, so he suggested 
a sweet mead.  Do any of you have any other suggestions or comments 
for a first time mead, specifically one made from orange blossom 
honey, as far as recipie suggestions go?

Thanks!

Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina - 
"Where if the kudzu don't gitcha, the Baptists will!"


email: keith at ays.net
http://www.ays.net/brewmasters -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://www.ays.net/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)
http://www.ays.net/movingbrews -pumps and accessories for advanced homebrewers

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:43:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gus <buerkl at cooper.edu>
Subject: New York State HB Laws


I'm planning on starting a homebrew club here at The Cooper Union in 
Manhattan.  I need to provide the authorities at school with all of the 
relevant state and city statutes regarding homebrewing.  Also a 
possible concern (of theirs) is the non-profit status of an educational 
institution.  
	Where can this information be found?  In addition, if someone who 
has done this before could offer some advice, it would be a big help.

	Thanks in advance.

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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:56:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tidmarsh Major <tmajor at parallel.park.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: Fridge won't get cold

Kieth Royster asks about a used refrigerator that won't cool below 50F.
My wife and I also bought a used refrigerator and found that it would
get to about 35F in the winter (when the basement was at 50F) and down to
about 55F in the summer (when the basement is about 70F).  

Have you cleaned the coils on the back or bottom? That can make some
difference, though it didn't help us.  Odds are that if it's cooling a
little bit, it either has a constricted freon line or a slow freon leak
(at least that's what the repairman who looked at ours said).  The bad
news: to test and fix that requires recovering all the freon from the
sytem before pressure testing, which is about a $300 job here in Athens.
Ours has kept at around 50F for almost 3 years now, which is fine for
fermenting a lager, and not a bad return on a cheap 'fridge.

Not long ago, someone on the HBD suggested letting a refrigerator sit for
24 hours before turning it on after moving it to allow the oils and
coolant to settle.  I don';t know if that will help you, but it couldn't
hurt, and the price is right.

Tidmarsh Major
tmajor at parallel.park.uga.edu



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:29:14 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bottle/Keg Alternative?

In Homebrew Digest #2503, Greg_T._Smith at notes.pw.com wrote:

>I am planning a tailgate party in a couple of weeks.  I am trying
>to figure a way to get some homebrew there, but they do not allow
>any bottles or kegs (which they consider to be anything under
>pressure, eliminating mini-kegs, Party Pigs, and the like).  Is
>there any alternative left for me to use?  I can't think of any,
>but I am just wondering if there is any little trick I could try.
>I hate resorting to buying canned beer, but if I must... at least
>there are a few that are drinkable (if I can get my hands on them).

How about a poly cube?  These are heavy duty, semi-transparent flexible
plastic cubes with a valve.  Dave Line in his classic "Big Book of Brewing"
describes their use, and an English brewing friend of mine uses 5 gallon
cubes all the time for dispensing his bitter.  (He's from the south and
they hate frothy beer there).  This would work great for low-carbonation
styles such as bitter, and would probably work for short time
transportation of higher carbonation styles as well.  Back in the early
80's, microbrewing pioneer Bill Newman of Albany (NY) Brewing sold his beer
in one gallon cubes.  You could transfer carbonated beer from a keg or
"keg" it in the cube with just a bit of priming sugar.  Monitor it so it
doesn't blow up.  They collapse as you dispense beer, and lose carbonation
if you keep them too long.

I'm not sure where you can get these, but HB shops ought to help.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:01:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Wesley McDaniel <wmcdanie at marlin.utmb.edu>
Subject: First mash

Hello all!  I am getting ready to do my first all-grail brew.  My 
question is about the water.  Is bottled spring water o.k. for British 
and American ales?  If I use R.O. water, will I need to add burton water 
salts?  TIA.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
   Wesley McDaniel              wesley.mcdaniel at utmb.edu
      University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston
- -----------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:20:37 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: k&b alts, excess glass

To the poster who can't bring bottles or kegs to the tailgate party- if
no bottles is due to glass, how about 1-2 liter PET (plastic) bottles? 
Surely this must be better than buying canned 'beer'.
Speaking of glass, I live in EHT, NJ, and I wish to decrease my 12-16 oz
glass collection.  I'm looking for a loving home, instead of recycling
and/or returning to liquor store.  Free to a good home, although a token
homebrew or two wouldn't hurt.  They need to be delabeled, etc..., but
all have been thoroughly rinsed after use.  If you don't know where/what
EHT is, you probably live too far.  Private e-mail preferred.
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:47:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Roasting Already-Crushed Malt Take II / Gott Step Mashing

I replied to Scott Murman's question about roasting already-crushed malt, and
in the meantime I ran across something DeClerck wrote in his "Textbook of
Brewing" that I thought was relevent:

"An analogous principle to the production of pale crystal malt has been
applied in a different way.  Malt flour is heated to 120 - 130 C immediately
in an "aromatizer".  Heating malt flour in this way also increases mellowness
of palate and increases head retention."  (1994 printing, Vol 1, p. 244)

While such flash-heating may be difficult to do at home, you could try
pre-heating a cookie sheet (or two) in the oven at 250F (120C), then quickly
spreading the crushed malt on the hot cookie sheet in a thin layer, promptly
closing the door, and leaving in the oven for maybe 10 more minutes.

*****

Rene' asks:

  "I would like to do 122F/155F, 122F/135F/155F and 135F/155F mashes in a
Gott.
  What is the thickest I should mash in at the lower temperature (qt/pound)?
  and what is the thinest that I want my sach hold to be (qt/pound)?

  "In one of his books, Noonan talks about thicker mashes being better for
lower
  temps and thiner ones for higher temps, is this correct?"

0.9 to 1.0 qt/lb is about as thick as you can go.  The two-step mashes are
pretty easy but the three-step mashes will require that (a) you have a large
cooler and/or (b) you have a small amount of grain.  There are a couple of
programs (such as Suds and MashCalc, both available for download at The
Brewery) that will help with the temperatures, but you have to "work
backwards" from the final temperature if you want to specify the ending
thickness.

Another thing to tuck away for reference is that crushed grain will occupy
about 0.8 gal/lb when mixed with mash water.  That should help you determine
whether your mash tun has enough capacity for the amount of grain & water you
need.

Thicker mashes are supposedly good for protein rests, wheil thinner mashes
are better for saccharifiaction, so this works in your favor.  However, too
thin a mash can actually impede saccharification because the enzymes become
too dilute.  I seem to recall 2 qt/gal being about the top limit for mash
thinness.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:51:28 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Is it homebrew?


John Bowen asks whether The Brew House kits are real homebrew.

Well John, I think that's more of a philosophical question.  I've made
one
of those kits, and a friend has made 2 of them.  THey are most certainly
excellent beer!  Just like all-grain, but from a kit.  What more could
you
ask for?  And to top it off, you just dump and stir!  No boiling,
nothing.
I even recommend these kits to people who want to make excellent beer
in no time at all.

However, I have to admit that when I drank the Brew House beer, I
didn't really feel like I was drinking my own beer, and didn't feel like
it was homebrew.  Maybe that's because I've been all-grain for so
long now, I don't know.  Other friend's I've recommended the kits to
say stuff like "well, it sounds good, but it doesn't seem like it's
really
making beer anymore".

The the purest definition of the term, it is certainly homebrew.
However,
personally, I don't feel it really is.

But that's not going to stop me from making another one next time I
get low on beer, and want to make a really quick batch!  :-)

 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
Nortel Enterprise Networks
Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations
PC Support Prime


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:06:49 -0700
From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman)
Subject: ice water immersion chiller

I brewed a demonstration batch of extract IPA in front of the shop last
weekend for the benefit of the curious would-be brewers.  It was a success,
but I had one problem that I did eventually solve and I thought the
experience might be of use to someone out there.

I did not have ready access to running water so I did all my sanitizing in
several hdpe buckets.  No problem.  But how to run the immersion wort
chiller was another thing.  I ended up putting 16 # of ice into a 54 quart
cooler (my hot liquor tank) and then 6 gallons of cold tap water.  I ran
this through the chiller at full flow which took about 22 minutes.  Wort
was still too hot and about half the ice had melted.  I poured 6 more
gallons of cold tap water into the hot liquor tank and ran about 4 gallons
of that through the chiller in about 15 minutes, at which time the wort
felt right.  I dumped the wort into the carboy where the fermometer read 68
F for exactly 5 gallons of wort.  My wort chiller is home made from 50 ft
of 3/8" copper tubing molded into two coils, one inside the other.

So if you're brewing without running water, hopefully these numbers will help.

jeff
casper, wy



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:00:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Entire Butt (cont'd)

In HBD No. 2503, Michael J. Brown wrote:

>>>Thanks to Jonas, Charley, Randy, Mark, Paul, and Tom, I confirmed
the
meaning of the Entire part, in relation to Porter ale, and brewing.
However, no clear definition has come to light in regards to the "Butt"
portion of the equation! Pardon my French, I just don't seem to get the
connection in relationship to the use of the word "Butt" in this
context.
Where's the Oxford English Dictionary when you need it? TTYAL,
ILBCNU!<<<

As I mentioned in my post on the question initially, "butt" has
several meanings, one of which is "a large cask, esp. for wine, beer
or water" (Webster's Ninth Collegiate). Incidentally, this was also a
measure equivalent to 108 Imperial gallons.

As to the origins of the word, it's Middle English (Chaucer-type
English), came into use about the 14th century (probably fell out of
use in the 19th), and is descended from the Middle French "botte" and
the Late Latin "buttis."

 -Steve





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Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:29:01 -0600
From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Re:  GABF

> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:06:57 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
> Subject: GABF
> 
> Does anyone know when the Great American Beer Festival starts this year ?
> 
> Cheers
> Ian Smith 
> isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com


Ian,

This year's Great American Beer Festival runs from Thursday, October 2nd
through Saturday, October 4th.  All the information you could want can be
found at the AOB's website at <http://beertown.org/gabfframeset.htm>.

Please note that the Members-Only Tasting is on Thursday night along with
the Awards Ceremony.

Hope to see everyone there!

 -  Brian

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association  (303) 447-0816  x 121   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                              (303) 447-2825   (fax)
PO Box 1679                                 brian at aob.org   (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679                info at aob.org     (aob info)
U.S.A.                                        http://beertown.org  (web)





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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:32:04 -0700
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: AHA BofA Minutes, AOB 990

I was wondering if anyone knows when the AHA BofA minutes to the meeting
at the AHA conference will be appearing in print or on the net?  It's
been a few months now. :-)

Also has anyone gotten the AOB 1996 990 Form?  Or will the AOB be
putting it up on their web site?  I'd like to think that they would be
willing to do this rather than have me go to the IRS once again. :-)

Jim


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:46:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: DoubleDDD at aol.com
Subject: Russian rye bread beer

Greetings beer lovers,
     I have a friend named Theo who lives in Eureka, Ca. who brought back
from Russia a bottle of "beer" fermented from rye bread.  It was very light
bodied, and fruity with a low alcohol content. It tasted good too. Very
drinkable.
     Does anyone out there in homebrew land have a recipie for this? Any info
at all would be apreciated. Email is prefered: DoubleDDD at aol.com
Thanks
Don Dickinson
Santa Rosa, Ca

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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:57:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Iodine test

Laura's post reminded me of Dave's suggestion:
>3) Conversion - "try modified iodine test. Boil a teaspoon or so of mash -
>including the grains - in the microwave for a minute or so to free up any
>starch.  Squeeze the grains between two spoons and test the liquid with
>iodine. Reddish is OK and is negative for starch, blue-black or darker is
>positive for starch and you need longer mashing, perhaps."

I still contend that this is a bad idea (no, Dave, I don't automatically
disagree with all your un-traditional procedures).  I've explained this
once before... I'll try again.

All the starch that's in a typical malt kernel is not necessarily
accessable to your mash.  The percentage that is depends mostly on
modification, quality, and crush (but there are tradeoffs: there are
negatives for excessive crush which have been covered in HBD in the past).
When you boil the grain, you could extract starch that would not be
accessable to your mash liquor if you hadn't boiled it (this is why
decoction mashing gives slightly more yield than infusion mashing).

Note that in decoction mashing, you do *not* boil the grain in the
last decoction (the one that takes you to mashout) but rather you
boil runnings (no grain).  This is because the boiling can liberate
some starch (actually, a mashout temp over 180F (I believe) can also
liberate starch) and because this is at mashout, there will be no
enzymes to convert your starch to sugargs/dextrins.

So, if you are doing an infusion mash, but boiling your samples for
the iodine test (which, incidentally, I never do anymore... I know
by time and intuition) can liberate starch that you simply can't
get at in the mashtun.  Why would you want to boil the sample
anyway?  Don't you simply want to know if the starch that was 
released to the liquor was converted or is there still some in solution?
For that, just take a sample of the liquid part of your mash and
test for starch.  Simple!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:12:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Hop suppliers

I'd like to put in a plug for my favourite (homebrew-sized) hop
supplier: Freshops!  (If you're buying 50# or more of one variety,
then I'd go with HopUnion... HopUnion also has pellets in quantities
as small as 11#).

http://www.freshops.com

sales at freshops.com

1-800-460-6925

NOTE: quantities of 8oz or less are vacuum-packed in oxygen-barrier bags.
For larger quantities of one hop, make sure you order some oxygen-barrier
bags.  They work great with those seal-a-meal sealers you can get for $19
at houseware and discount stores.

No, I'm not affiliated with them in any way other than being a satisfied
customer.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 14:22:07 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: FWH, HSA

I do not believe it is useful to draw conclusions about FWH (or any
other procedure for that matter) based on a single isolated batch.
There are simply too many confounding issues (age and quality of
the ingredients, the recipe used, ....). The only way to get a real
measure of how this procedure plays out for any given brewer is
through comparative batches, which was exactly what was done in
the original Brauwelt study. I found in my test brews that there
was not a big difference in the intensity of the hop aroma for 
FWH compared to late hopping, however there was a clear preference
among the people who gave us input for the quality of the aroma of the 
FWH beers compared to the late hopped versions.

The flavoring issue appears to be more complicated. While the majority
of homebrewers who helped do the evaluation preferred the flavoring
of the FWH beers, there was a minority who preferred beers that didn't
use either FWH or late hopping. As far as I can tell these people tend
to be hop adverse, i.e., they tend to react negatively once the hop 
flavors (good or bad) get much beyond the minimum acceptable for a 
particular beer style.

As I understand it FWH hopped beers did very well in the '97 nationals,
and Zymurgy is apparently going to do an article on this. The Kolsch
that I entered and which won used FWH, and I feel they played a key
role. The commercial beer in this style that I most admire is the
one brewed by Kurfursten in Bonn. Unfortunately, it is completely
out of category as far as the AHA guidelines are concerned. (The
same is true for most the top versions brewed in Koeln). E.g., it
has an OE of 12.5P (1.050) and BU = 32 mg/l. Since none of these
beers are imported to the US, judges generally have only the AHA
guidelines to go on. As a result I made a conscious decision to brew
down my beloved Furfursten model to assure it would be taken seriously.
It was vastly inferior to the real thing, but I feel the FWH
did recapture at least part of the complexity I recall from my visits 
to Bonn.

It may well be that HSA is a non-issue for everyday homebrew as
some have contented. However, as long as the nationals are done
during the hot summer months with a nontrivial time difference
between the 1st and 2nd rounds, I conjecture it is a major
factor in this fray. In fact, I conjecture (totally without proof!)
that it is more important than bacteria, wild yeast, and/or
variability in judging for explaining major differences between 1st and
2nd round evaluations. Believe me, I have found this out the hard way!

Cheers,

George Fix



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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:59:39 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: real homebrew?

John wrote:
>From: "John R. Bowen" <jbowen at primary.net>
>Subject: Is it a Homebrew?
>
>I have a philosophical conundrum.  As an experiment, I am brewing a 
>prepared wort kit from The Brew House.  I purchased a strong fully 
>ready wort (sp. g. about 1.075) that I diluted to 1.048.  It is 
>prehopped and preboiled--just add water, salts and yeast.  What could 
>be simpler? 
>
>Is this a real Homebrew?  Yes, I'm watching it ferment at home, and ...

I'd vote yes.  This is just like any other extract beer with hopped extract.
If you win any ribbons, you should gloat in making an excellent beer 
with so little effort.  Let us know how the beer turns out--these kits
look like great beginning kits, but I've never tried a beer made with one.

BTW, I'd recommend boiling the water you add to try to kill any
wild yeast or bacteria present.

          - Bryan
            gros at bigfoot.com
            Oakland, CA

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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 97 15:52 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re:butt

Dr Brown continues to ask about our Butt(s) in hbd 2503.

The Butt part of Entire-Butt just refers to the storage medium.

Here's the URL for Webster's online dictionary:

http://www.m-w.com/netdict.htm

Butt returned a dozen entries, here's #3:

Main Entry: 3butt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French botte, from Old Provencal
bota, from Late Latin buttis
Date: 14th century
1 : a large cask especially for wine, beer, or water
2 : any of various units of liquid capacity; especially : a measure
equal to 108 imperial gallons (491 liters) 

Charley




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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:44:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Forrest Duddles <duddles at Imbecile.kzoo.edu>
Subject: fridge dampness

Greetings fellow brewers,

 I have been using "Damp Rid" with good success in my chest
freezer-turned-keg fridge. Damp Rid is a clever container within a
container filled with calcium chloride crystals (dessicant). Water will
collect in the outer container and may be poured off every week or two.
Eventually the crystals dissolve and you replace the whole thing. I
have been using this stuff since I bought my freezer this past April
and am still have about 60% of the crystals although they are
beginning to fuse together. I bought mine at my local grocery store. It is
sold as a means to dry out musty closets or damp basements.

Hope this helps,
 ...Forrest

- ---------------------
  Forrest Duddles
  duddles at Imbecile.kzoo.edu	   


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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:24:22 -0700
From: "Ian Wilson" <ianw at sosinet.net>
Subject: Sparge Volume Calculation

This is a question directed at the collective:

In designing a recipe, I determine the following:

Grain bill weight		16lbs
Final Volume 		9 gallons
Total volume of water based on Ray Daniels work sheet from "Designing Great
Beers"
			16 gallons

Mash in at 1.33 gal/lb	5.3 gal

Of the remaining 10.7 gallons of water to put 9 gallons in the fermenter,
how much of this should be assigned to sparge volume?

Obviously, sparging with 10.7 gallons is rediculous. The remaining volume
will be added to the boil kettle.

So, what say you O Sages of the Mashing Fork? Are there any Rules of Thumb
for the sparge volume?

Ian Wilson
Ianw at sosinet.net

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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:30:07 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: RE: Stuck Stout

After 12 days in the primary I racked it to a secondary, there was
less than one inch of sediment and I had a S.G. of 1.028.  The flavor is
very good, not noticeably sweet and a nice coffee aftertaste.  The
temperature during this fermentation was between 76-80 degree F. 
        My initial thought is that the temp during fermentation may be a
littlehigh.  Will this amount of Malto-Dextrine cause the beer to finish
with this high a S.G.?  Any suggestions out there would be appreciated. 
I am planning to bottle once I think this beer is finished doing its
thing.  I don't want to experience my first exploding bottles!

Greg, I would say that this beer has more than likely finished. To be
sure, wait a few days and do another gravity check. The SG readings for
this type of beer is not unreasonable.

To heck with your instincts, trust your hydrometer!

Good luck and enjoy it, it sounds delightful.

Marc
 
- ----------------------------------------
Capt. Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com

             \\|// 
             (o o)
=========oOO==(_)==OOo===========

Beer is proof that there is a God
                     Ben Franklin


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---