---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Lagering in Steel/New Wyeast (Brian_Moore)
  LABC Response ("Tim M. Dugan")
  WANTED:  A step by step BJCP study guide ("Randy A. Shreve")
  RE:  Full volume boil and hop utilization (dconger)
  Looking for a good Barrel supplier... (Jean-Sebastien Morisset)
  US Plastics for valves, connects, fittings (Dennis J. Templeton)
  Dry Yeasts ("Alan McKay")
  Boycott LABC ("Alex Aaron")
  GABF meeting (Nathan Moore)
  Sparge water pH 4.6 OK? ("Alan McKay")
  Those *^^%#% at LABC (Ahenckler)
  RE: Plastic Valves (Jean-Sebastien Morisset)
  Keg Conversion, continued... ("Eric Schoville")
  Wyeast 1968 ("Rich, Charles")
  Applejack recipe (Dave Schmidt)
  Wine Yeasts (korz)
  pantyhose beer (korz)
  Esters and conditioning (korz)
  Reverse Osmosis water ("Bridges, Scott")
  Wyeast 1968 (korz)
  Mild mash temps (korz)
  Irradiating Beer ("Houseman, David L")
  Laminar Flow Hood & HEPA Filter Summary (KennyEddy)
  AHA Guidelines (part 1) ("Brian M. Rezac")
  AHA Guidelines (part 2) ("Brian M. Rezac")
  Belgian XMass Beer Suggestions ("Paul A. Hausman")
  Reusing/ saving Yeast ("David L. Thomson")
  homebrew club liability (John Landreman)
  Re:Converting pre-boil SG to post-boil SG (Jim Wallace)
  Munich / IPA / LABCO (Matthew Arnold)


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hbd.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.) 

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to homebrew-request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
**ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! 
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to brewery at realbeer.com

Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org

Requests for back issues will be ignored. Back issues are available via:

  Anonymous ftp from...
	hbd.org	/pub/hbd	
	ftp.stanford.edu	/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  E-mail...
        ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com (send a one-line e-mail message with 
                                   the word help for instructions.)
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:12:54 -0500
From: Brian_Moore at amat.com
Subject: Lagering in Steel/New Wyeast

Greetings all,

My two brewing partners and I have recently jumped into lagering with both
(actually six) feet.  I wanted to request some information from the HBD
collective.

We currently have five 10 gallon lager batches at different stages of
fermentation.  We've used either the Wyeast Bavarian Lager or the Wyeast
Czech Pils yeast (sometimes both) for all five batches.  We've been doing
the primary fermentations in glass for about 2-3 weeks at about 50F.  We
then move them to 5 gallon soda kegs and do secondary and tertiary
fermentations at 45F and 35F, respectively.  Once we get the beers into the
kegs, I usually bleed off the pressure about once a day.  Sometimes I miss
a day.  I am wondering just how much CO2 these beers are producing.  I can
currently vent the Pils and then come back 10 minutes later and pressure
has already built up again.  I would like to know whether letting the
pressures build up too high for too long will impact the yeast activity (or
other characteristics).

Also, our last three batches (Dunkle, Bock, Eis/Dopplebock - we'll see)
used a combination of the Bavarian and Czech Pils yeast.  These three gave
off the most horrid sulphury, rotten egg smell during the primary
fermentation!  It has dissipated quite a bit now, but my chest freezer was
putrid for a couple of weeks.  I knew this was a characteristic of the
Wyeast Munich strain, but I was surprised by smelling it with these
strains.  I'm curious if the pressure build-up in the kegs while these
ferment will carry some of that sulphury smell to the finished beer? Mmmm
rotten eggs!

Finally, one of the local homebrew shops here was test marketing some new
Wyeast strains.  One was a "Northwest ESB" yeast.  I'm guessing maybe
Redhook?  The other was some sort of English Ale.  Maybe also an ESB.  I
have not brewed with these yet.  Does anyone out there have any information
or experience with these?

Thanks,

Brian in Austin



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:31:40 -0500
From: "Tim M. Dugan" <tdugan at netins.net>
Subject: LABC Response

- -----Original Message-----
>From:	Bkkimbro at aol.com
>Date:	Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:55:32 -0400 (EDT)
>To:	mikeb at flash.net
>Subject:	Re: Barleywine recipe
>
< Dribble Deleted >

>2.  As an employee of the company, every product (good or bad) he =
produced
>was the sole property of the company, just as our chef's food is.

 < Dribble Deleted >

>Russ Loub
>Owner/ General Manager
>Little Apple Brewing Co.

As much as I hate to align myself with this a**hole, I think this point =
is being over looked.  An employee's work, is the property of the =
employer. =20

I am in the process of leaving my present job.  I am not in the brewing =
industry, but I am a software developer.  There are utilities in use by =
our customers that I am the sole developer.  If I tried walking out of =
here next week, claiming that the source code was mine, I would be met =
by laughter or security.  I was paid to produce a product, and that =
product belongs to the company.  I doubt the brewing industry is any =
different.  If my company wants to take the software I wrote and put it =
out in the public domain, it is their software to do so as they wish.

Am I missing something here?  Can the developer of a recipe at Red Hook =
take the recipe to Blue Moon?

Mr. Moline did say that Little Apple Brewing told him that the recipe =
was his.  If the recipe was developed before Rob Moline began working as =
a brewer at Little Apple Brewing Co., say as a homebrewer, then =
obviously it is.  But, I fear that the recipe was developed as an =
employee of Little Apple Brewing, and any "giving away" that was done =
was probably done orally. =20

One thought, I doubt Mr. Loub will be around for long with his attitude. =
 Mr. Loub sounds exactly like an owner I worked for in a previous life =
as a bartender...a person with total lack of respect for his/her =
employees.  In order to best serve your customers, you need a staff with =
high morale.  If you treat your employees like crap, they will treat the =
customers like crap.  And if you treat your employees great, they will =
treat the customers great.  When the customers are happy, you will =
succeed, when they are unhappy, you will fail eventually.

I have a great deal of respect and have learned a lot from Mr. Moline, =
and I hate being "on the other side".  I visited Little Apple Brewing a =
little while ago and was quite impressed with both the beers and the =
atmosphere.  I didn't attempt to talk to Rob Moline, but I understand =
that if I did, he would have bent over backwards for me and my family.  =
Hope you are doing the same somewhere else real soon.

Tim M. Dugan
tdugan at netins.net

P.S.  Now, what was that recipe again... Joke, joke, it was only a joke! =
 ;-)


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:32:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Randy A. Shreve" <rashreve at interpath.com>
Subject: WANTED:  A step by step BJCP study guide

Fellow beer lovers:

At a recent meeting of the Carolina BrewMasters in Charlotte, NC, I was
discussing
preparation for the BJCP exam with a fellow member.  He had recently taken
the test
with less than stellar results (I haven't taken the plunge yet myself!).

Tim had a great idea:  a step by step study guide is needed!  I have seen
the BJCP 
study guide available on the net.  Although it is chock full of all kinds of
great info, it is really only a reference work.  Preparation for this test
considering the detailed knowledge needed on all the various sub-topics is a
monumental and overwhelming task.  How in the world do you get started?
What do you study first, and how much of each topic? (Now you can see WHY I
haven't taken the plunge yet!)  

What is needed is a STEP BY STEP study process.

For example:  let's say we have arbitrarily chosen a six month time frame to
prepare for the exam, and there will be monthly meetings for those in the
process.

Preparation for first meeting:  read Chapters 1-5 of "Beer Book"  Read
Chapters 6-8 of "Another Beer Book".  Tasting assignments.

Month 1:  All about Malt - discussion/lecture
Taste certain styles of beer, off flavors, etc. to begin to educate the palate.
Other appropriate stuff, guided self-study to prepare for next month, etc.
Preparation for next meeting:  reading and tasting assignments

Month 2:  All about Yeast - discussion/lecture
More tasting.
More appropriate stuff, more guided self-study for the next month, etc.

Get the idea?
If there is already something available like this in hyperspace, I have
missed it!
If it doesn't exist, are any of the Great Academic Brew Gurus out there
interested in taking on a project like this?   

Thanks!  Randy in Salisbury, NC


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:40:36 -0400
From: dconger at roadshow.com
Subject:   RE:  Full volume boil and hop utilization

TO: homebrew at hbd.org


In HBD 2508, Jeff Beaujon asks about factors affect hop utilization.   
There is an excellent summary of this deep and somewhat confusing subject   
in Norm Pyle's Hop FAQ, at:  http://realbeer.com/hops/FAQ.html#units .

David  

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:54:29 -0400
From: Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>
Subject: Looking for a good Barrel supplier...

Oh wise HBD collective,

I'm looking to buy a 10 gal Oak Barrel to ferment some Barleywine etc.
So far, I've been looking for a French Oak barrel, with a light to
medium toast, tight grain, and wide/fat rather than the long/thin type.
Are these good qualities?

I've only been able to locate a single company (in California) which
sells this type of barrel in 7 1/2 gal or 15 gal sizes (I can even
choose my prefered forest in France!). Since my largest batch size is 12
gal, am I correct to avoid the 15 gal barrel? Does anyone know of a
company selling 10 gal barrels with these characteristics?

Thanks,
js.
- --
Jean-Sebastien and Melanie <mailto:jsm-mv at geocities.com>
Personal Home Page <http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/5603/>
"Our Homebrewery, Award Winning Recipes, & Technical References"

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:02:31 -0500
From: djt2 at po.cwru.edu (Dennis J. Templeton)
Subject: US Plastics for valves, connects, fittings

Two queries asked for sources of plastic valves and quick disconnects. A
fine source is US Plastics; 1-800-537-9724. If it's plastic, they have it.

Dennis



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:25:36 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Dry Yeasts


Jeffrey Kenton writes in HBD 2508 :

> "Fellow HBDers, I have received several replies to my search for quality
> dried yeast stock, and I hope that I have replied to each person that
> emailed me their suggestions.  If I have forgotten, please forgive my
> oversight.
> 
> The big three are :
> 1.  Lallemand/Danstar (nottingham, london, etc.)
> 2.  Edme
> 3.  Yeast Lab Dry Lager
> 
> These are ranked according to the number of referrals only, not necessarily
> according to quality, blah, blah, blah. I am also not affiliated with any
> particular company, etc, etc.
> 
> Again, I am amazed at the number of messages I received regarding this.
> Thanks to all of those that replied to my query."

After a couple of years as a die-hard liquid yeast fanatic (and a yeast
bank
to prove it :-) ) I decided for various reasons to give dry yeasts
another try.
After more than a half dozen batches with Cooper's in the gold foil
pack,
I am extremely impressed with it.  Pitching 14 grams (2 packs) shows 
signs of fermentation after only 2 or 3 hours even with no aeration.
Primary
fermentation is completed in a remarkable 24 to 30 hours after
pitching!!!
I've also noticed that even at higher temperatures like 75F (22C) this
yeast
is able to produce a reasonably clean taste (for an Ale).  My assumption
is
that the yeast is bread for the warmer climes of Australia.  That may
not be
valid, of course, but it makes sense to me.

I've used the Yeast Lab Dry Lager once, and it did not start after 30
hours, so I
pitched my trusty Cooper's and 30 hours after that the primary was
complete,
as expected.  Of course, I didn't aerate.  But given that I never do
when using
my Cooper's, why should I expect to have to?

I've also tried Munton's Gold once.  Fermentation went really well (yet
not as
impressive as the Cooper's).  Primary was done in about 2 to 3 days.
I've
yet to bottle this beer, so can't yet report on how it tastes.  Judging
by the
taste at racking, I'd say it's going to be a hit as well.

 -Alan



- --
Alan McKay
Nortel Enterprise Networks
Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations
PC Support Prime


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:24:05 -0700
From: "Alex Aaron" <aaaron at pacbell.net>
Subject: Boycott LABC

To everyone:

As much as I hate chain letters, this might actually work. Send this
message to ten friends, tell them to send it to ten of their friends.

Boycott Little Apple Brewing Company.

Since they listen to thier customers, they might get the message when they
have no customers.

Alex Aaron
aaaron at pacbell.net
http://www.checkmaster.com/internetchecks/alex/index.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:39:31 -0600 (MDT)
From: Nathan Moore <moorent at bechtel.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: GABF meeting

	A HBD meeting does sound fun but a good point was made about the
over packing of local brewpubs (and they are pretty full).  So how about a
local secret.  We can meet at Pint's Pub at 211 W 13th Ave, about a 15 min
walk from the GABF but still out of the way enough.  It is a great British
pub that brews a couple including a cask conditioned and has a great
selection of rare imports.  Some one can just tell the bartender to
direct HBD'rs to a certain area. How about thursday at 8:00 PM? 
	Another alternative would be my place, we can all bring a few
homebrews and meet for a while.  I live about the same distance as Pint's
Pub from the GABF and downtown hotels(about 1 mile).  Private e-mail if
your interested in this option. (We can all plan our boycot of the Little
Apple). 

Nathan Moore
Denver, CO


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:37:41 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Sparge water pH 4.6 OK?


Hi folks,

I was wondering how far down one should bring the pH of sparge water.
In the past I've usually tried to keep it around 5.0 to 5.5 -- in-line
with 
the pH of the mash itself.  But for the last couple of batches I've
brought
it down even further (with acid blend, as always) to 4.6.

I know that this lower pH will help me extract less tannins, and will
also favour proteases (as I recall).  

Are there any other plusses or minusses I should be aware of?

Just how low can I go?

thanks,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
Nortel Enterprise Networks
Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations
PC Support Prime


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:45:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ahenckler at aol.com
Subject: Those *^^%#% at LABC

I'm so irked, I wish I were near LABC so I could give this prick a piece of
my mind in person.  What can I say, but FLAME AWAY!  How about everyone just
spreading the word about those fun folks at LABC?

 - Andrew


<< n proudly say that we now have a brewer who understands the
>importance of the customer and meeting there needs.  Personally, I have more
>important things to do than waste my time on the internet so you won't be
>hearing from me again, ever.  Get a life.
>
>Russ Loub
>Owner/ General Manager
>Little Apple Brewing Co.

 >>


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:55:53 -0400
From: Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>
Subject: RE: Plastic Valves

> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:31:24 -0500
> From: Ralph Link <rlink at minet.gov.mb.ca>
> Subject: Plastic Valves
> 
> Does anyone know if it possible to use high temp. plastic ball valves on a
> whole grain system. I am told that there is a valve call a C PVC valve that
> can take the high temps. If you know anything about this please respond via
> e-mail 

Don't do it! I've done the whole PVC, CPVC, PP route and came out much
poorer in the end. CPVC or PP valves are *more* expensive than Brass
valves. Plastic also expands with heat but doesn't shrink all the way
back to it's original size. Unless you're glueing your connections,
you'll find they've become loose after every use -- A prime cause of
HSA. Do yourself a favour and stick with SS, Copper, or Brass.

BTW, if you'd like to see a bit of what I went through, the whole story
is available on my web page.

Later!
js.

- --
Jean-Sebastien and Melanie <mailto:jsm-mv at geocities.com>
Personal Home Page <http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/5603/>
"Our Homebrewery, Award Winning Recipes, & Technical References"

Return to table of contents


Date: 17 Sep 97 10:42:20 -0700
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Keg Conversion, continued...

Hello again,

	I had several responses to my previous post
about cutting the top of sankey kegs asking what 
type of circular saw blade that I used.  Unfortunately,
I am not at home this week, because I am on business,
so I can not give the mfg name/part number, but I can
give some other information.  I purchased the blade at 
Home Despot.  It was located with the other circular saw
blades in their "Hardware" section.  The blade is a fiber
reinforced grinding wheel, 6 1/2" in diameter, made 
specifically for circular saws.  They also had a 7 1/4" blade,
 which would have fit my circular saw, but I thought that I 
could get a smaller diameter circle with the smaller blade.  
I think it important to not that the sticker on the blade 
says that it can be used with metals.  I also checked for this 
grinding wheel at my local ACE Hardware (because I personally
do not like Home Depot very much after working both at True Value
and Lowe's earlier in life), but they did not have any in stock.
Because of this, I would suggest a larger hardware store.
	I also had a couple of questions about the grinding stone that
I used.  It is a small cylindrical stone, about 2" long and 1" in 
diameter that attaches to a drill.  I also bought this at Home Depot. 
After using his on three kegs, it looks like an hourglass instead
of the cylinder that it.  If I were to get another one, I would 
recommend one that was quite a bit thicker.  I think that it would 
spin faster and speed grinding.  I was really tempted to take the 
guard off my bench grinder, and use it to grind down the edges, but I 
thought that it would be a little to risky, so I made due with the 
small grinding stone.  

****************************************************************

I also really appreciate all of the responses that I received
regarding bulkhead fittings.  I am really wondering now if I should
try the bulkhead fittings which I have been informed are really
expensive, or whether I should go ahead and get a weld job done, 
or whether I should just use silver solder for the plumbing.  Right
now I am leaning towards the soldering because I already have the 
solder and the price is right.  I just want to make sure that the 
fittings are going to be stable.  Any comments?

*****************************************************************

	I am on business in St. Louis.  I've tried Morgan Street 
Brewery (Average Beer, Great Food) and the Taproom (Good-Excellent 
Beer, Good Food).  Any other recommendations?

Eric Schoville
Norman Conqueror of Absolutely Nothing

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:42:51 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at saros.com>
Subject: Wyeast 1968

This is my favorite ale yeast.  As Wyeast points out, it is very
flocculent, but I find that it is also very temperature sensitive too
and that is what has triggered mid-ferment dropout for me.  If you can
keep it above 64-66F and not shock it with temperature swings it'll work
well.  I keep it at 68F when I use it.  If it drops out, I rouse it by
slowly swirling the fermenter to stir things up, which also releases
CO2.  If this fails after a few times, then reviving it at a slightly
warmer temperature will usually do it.  Dion Hollenbeck's "fermenter in
a gabage can of water with an aquarium heater" works if your ambient
temps tend to go too low.

Cheers
Charles Rich

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:43:21 -0500
From: Dave Schmidt <dschmidt at microlink.net>
Subject: Applejack recipe

I'm looking for a recipe for a drink called "apple-jack".  Anyone know of any?

Thanks, 
Dave


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:56:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Wine Yeasts

Mike has a stuck ferment on his "Brown Ale" fermented at 62F with 1028.

I don't have any experience with those wine yeasts, but the only
concern would be sulphury aromas or excessive higher alcohols, both
of which should age out given enough time.

I think, however, that your problem was that you were trying to ferment
Wyeast #1028 too cold.  When you pitched initially, the wort was
probably closer to 70F.  The green beer was cooling because of the ambient
temperature, but the yeast activity is exothermic, so the yeast kept
the green beer warmer than 62F.  When activity began to slow, the beer
cooled down to 62F and the yeast ground to a halt.  Despite what the
Wyeast flyer says, I believe that Wyeast #1028 really prefers temperatures
above 65F.  If you pitch a big starter, the yeast may finish the job
before slowing down and therefore cooling off. so with a big starter
you may be able to ferment down to 60F.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:13:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: pantyhose beer

Cory suggests using pantyhose as a hop bag.  I would advise against that
as the dyes in pantyhose are somewhat beer-soluble.  I used to use
nylon mesh bags for hops till I put an EasyMasher(tm) in the bottom of
my 1st kettle.  Ever since then, I only whole hops (pellets clog the
EasyMasher) and run the wort out through the bottom.  Not only does this
remove the hops, but it also filters out some of the break material.  I
have the photos of my new brewery (similar design) scanned-in, but I now
have to upload them to my Web server.  It could take a few more
weeks to find the time... sigh.

Disclaimer: I do not sell EasyMashers, I have *sold* my store, I'm just
a satisfied customer of JSP, that's all.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:44:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Esters and conditioning

Jeremy writes:
> The extended cold conditioning cleans up the esters, and
>allows the flavors to mellow.

I have read in numerous books and articles about esterification which
is the *creation* of esters from alcohols and acids.  Yeast in the
conditioning vessel is supposed to be important for this since I've
read where the process of esterification is extremely slow on its
own.

As for the opposite process, I've never read about it in any professional
text.  Furthermore, my own personal experience indicates that ester
levels only increase during aging.

An interesting datapoint (only *one* datapoint, mind you!) is that I
had a Duesseldorfer Altbier in which I stored half the batch cold (40F)
and the rest "warm" (60-70F).  After 9 months, I compared the two, blind.
Both were slightly fruitier than they were after 2 months, but the one
stored *cold* was slightly fruitier than the one stored warm. 

Just a datapoint.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:46:00 -0400
From: "Bridges, Scott" <bridgess at mmsmtp.ColumbiaSC.NCR.com>
Subject: Reverse Osmosis water


Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:07:47 -0500
From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at CAM.ORG>
Subject: re:"Bring Out The Holy Hand Grenade!"

>>answer the question....which spring?,....what's in it?...etc,)
 .....R.O.
>>water will definitely require some salts......
>
>        I wouldn't say "definitely"! I use R.O. water all the time and
i
>only add a little bit of salts when I'm brewing ales. For my last two
>batches (pilsners), I didn't add anything to the water and they both
turned
>out great!!!
>
>Denis

Speaking of RO water, I saw a home RO set up in the local home
improvement store (Lowe's, my home away from home).  It was about $200
bucks.  I don't recall the manufacturer.  Anyone familiar with these
kinds of units?  How good are they really?  My water is really high in
carbonates, which makes it less than optimal brewing water.  I use an
under-sink filter now, but I know I'm still off the temporary hardness
chart.  I have to acidify the #%&$ out of my brewing water.  If it
really does take all the ions out of the water, I'd consider buying it.
In addition to having better brewing water (can anybody say "pilsner?"),
it would get rid of all that chalky-lookin' stuff (calcium carbonate?)
that deposits on and corrodes my plumbing fixtures.  Anybody use one of
these, or know how they operate?

TIA,
Scott

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:50:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Wyeast 1968

Paul writes:
  Highly flocculant top-fermenting strain with rich, malty character and
  balanced fruitiness. This strain is so flocculant that additional
  aeration is needed. An excellent strain for cask-conditioned ales.
      Flocculation - high; apparent attenuation - 67-71%.

I must disagree.  Additional aeration is not necessary, although rousing
is.  If you swirl the fermenter with the airlock in place (i.e with the
headspace of the fermenter all full of CO2), you will get the attenuation
that's expected *without* further aeration.  This is one of those yeasts,
however, that responds well to aeration *during* fermentation.  The
result will be higher diacetyl levels.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:56:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Mild mash temps

Mark wonders about the low mash temps in "Brew Your Own Real Ale at Home."

I agree with you Mark, that higher mash temps (i.e. 158F) would be better.
Remember that these beers typically have OGs of 1.030 or 1.035.  With
such a low OG, a highly-attenuated beer would taste very thin and dry.
I recall from at least one of the Mild recipes in that book, that they
used an incredible amount of crystal malt (something like 20 or 25% of
the grist!).  I would shy away from such a high percentage of crystal
malt and in stead use about 5% dark crystal, 2 to 5% chocolate and
mash at 158F.  This will result in lots of dextrins and a higher FG
which will give your beer a bigger mouthfeel than you might expect
from a 1.030 or 1.035 OG beer.

Al.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:57:37 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Irradiating Beer

"The irradiating sources used currently for food prezervation are
typically
"low power" ones which can punch through plastic, but not significant
enough to punch through cans. I don't remeber ever hearing or even
thinking
about bottles. Point being that it might not be a great sterilizer for
production beer."

It would be simple enough to irradiate the beer as it flowed in a line
from the holding tank to the bottler if it were decided to use this as a
form of sterilization.  I believe the issue of using irradiation with
foods is a contraversial and political one about the health and safety
issues of the irradiated products, not a technical one (which has been
pointed out).  But let's not open this pandora's box; it's not practical
for many of us homebrewers, save those still left in Chernoybl.

Dave


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:08:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Laminar Flow Hood & HEPA Filter Summary

Thanks to all who offerred replies to my question about HEPA (high-efficiency
particulate air) filters for the Under-$100 Laminar Flow Hood in an old issue
of Brewing Techniques.  Here's a rundown of replies.

Two respondents who actually built the box (with a "real" HEPA filter) said
it worked very well.  One respondent said the prices in the article are
somewhat dated, but that "inexpensive" filters can be had with enough
shopping.  Another suggested using HEPA respirator mask filters, which are
much less expensive, but this could require additional redesign &
construction work, and the size and shape of the filters may not be optimal
for the application.  Still another respondent reminded me that HEPA filters
are often sold in catalog stores for appliances such as vacuum cleaners and
air cleaner-filters.

Using a multiplicity of furnace filters, as I proposed, apparently wasn't a
good idea.

Perhaps the most thought-provoking reply came from a yeast geneticist who
cultures as a daily task at work.  He never uses a hood, and has had very few
problems with contamination.  His home-culturing record is perfect.

His success is based on good technique as opposed to special equipment.  Here
is his list of do's and don'ts:

  "1) dont touch, sneeze blow or cough exposed media. (liquid or solid)
  2) use a flame from a lighter to sterilize lips of bottles and inoculating
  loops
  3) be aware that most of the potential contamination is not comming from
  the air, but rather from your hands, the floor, the table etc. Therefore,
  whenever you set something down, you must flame it again. It really helps
  to wipe down the area with some ethanol or lysol. 
  4) when keeping plates or slants in the fridge, cover them well. The fridge
  is teeming with greedy mold spores."

Another excellent point he made is well-taken:

  "If you choose to go ahead with the hood idea, be aware that is it is
  constructed impropperly, you will end up blowing aroung bacteria and
  spores, which may make your problem worse!!"

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:26:05 -0600
From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: AHA Guidelines (part 1)

In response to Dave Draper's comments on the AHA's Beer Style Guidelines in
Homebrew Digest #2507, I would like to first post the Introduction of the
Association of Brewer's Beer Style Guidelines to give everyone a better
understanding of the basis of the guidelines and how changes are made to
them.  I will then post my direct response to Dave's comments.

Thanks,

Brian Rezac, Administrator, AHA

====================================================
Association of Brewer's Beer Style Guidelines
Introduction
by Charlie Papazian and James Spence.

Since 1979, the Association of Brewers has provided beer style descriptions
as a reference for brewers and beer competition organizers. The task of
creating a realistic set of guidelines is always complex. The beer style
guidelines developed for the Association of Brewers use sources from the
commercial brewing industry, beer analyses, and consultations with beer
industry experts as resources for information.

The Association of Brewers' beer style guidelines have, as much as
possible, historical significance or a high profile in the current
commercial beer market. Often, the historical significance is not clear, or
a new beer in a current market may only be a passing fad, and thus, quickly
forgotten. Another factor considered is that current commercial examples do
not always fit well into the historical record, and instead represent a
modern reincarnation of the style. Our decision to include a particular
historical beer style takes into consideration the style's brewing
traditions and the need to preserve those traditions in today's market. The
more a beer style has withstood the test of time and marketplace and
consumer acceptance, the more likely it is to be included in the
Association of Brewers' style guidelines.

The availability of commercial examples plays a large role in whether or
not a beer style "makes the list."   It is important to consider that not
every historical or commercial beer style can be included, nor is every
commercial beer representative of the historical tradition (i.e., a brewery
labeling a brand as a particular style does not always indicate a fair
representation of that style).

Please note that almost all of these beer style guidelines have been cross
referenced with data from commercially available beers representative of
the style. The data referenced for this purpose has been Professor Anton
Piendl's comprehensive work published in the German Brauindustrie magazine
through the years 1982 through 1994, from the series "Biere Aus Aller
Welt."

If you have suggestions for adding or changing a style guideline, write to
us, making sure to include reasons and documentation for why you think the
style should be included.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:26:41 -0600
From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: AHA Guidelines (part 2)

In HBD #2507, Dave Draper wrote:
> I have never commented on the AHA's perceived shortcomings, although
> much of the writing I have seen on the subject has struck a chord with
> me.  But this just makes me quite agitated.  If GEORGE FIX has to dumb
> down a recipe to meet an AHA guideline, something is very, very wrong,
> and I say it sure as hell ain't George's concept of what constitutes
> Koelsch!
> 
> This is not the first example that has been noted about problems
> with the AHA guidelines. I don't much care about the political
> contentiousness that has arisen regarding the AHA, but when it comes
> the nuts and bolts of beer in this way, it makes me think enough
> is enough.  An alternative is called for.  Who's with me?

First of all, I would like to thank Dave for using the term "perceived
shortcomings".  I won't tell you that the AHA is perfect.  We do have
"shortcomings", but, in this case, it's only a misperception.

The AHA Style Guidelines are just that, guidelines.  Style categories have
been changed, tweeked, added, eliminated and/or moved just about every year
since the AOB started publishing them in 1979.  These changes don't happen
easily, nor should they.  But, if you read the last sentence of my posting,
"AHA Guidelines (part 1)", you will see that we actually ask for
suggestions for changes or additions.  We do, however,  ask that you back
up your suggestion with reasons and documentation.

Let me also add that we base the AHA Style Guidelines on the AOB's Beer
Style Guidelines to create a similar standard for both, professional
brewers and homebrewers.  We also publish the AHA Style Guidelines, with
any changes, once a year to prevent confusion as to which style guidelines
version is to be used in any particular year.

Now lets talk about the Koelsch category and George Fix.  I am not certain
that you actually compared Dr. Fix's numbers to that of the AHA Style
Guidelines.  They are actually not that far off.  When I saw this, I called
Dr. Fix and asked him what he meant by "completely out of category as far
as the AHA guidelines are concerned".  He said that what he meant by using
the word, "completely", is that the Koelsch-style beer brewed by Kurfursten
in Bonn is not far out of the AHA specs, but rather, it is a little bit out
in three different areas; Original Gravity, IBU's and Color.

At this point, I would like to officially agree with Dave on George Fix's
"concept of what constitutes Koelsch".  Dr. Fix is one of the industry
experts that we consult with as resources for information.  And, as a
matter of fact, Charlie Papazian consulted with Gerorge Fix as to the
changes in the Koelsch category for the 1998 version of the AOB's Beer
Style Guidelines, which has already been published.  The good news is that
the Koelsch category did change.  The system works.  George Fix is
thrilled.  Brewers everywhere will benefit.

I would personally like to thank George Fix for his help.  I would also
like to thank Dave Draper for bringing this subject to the forum.  Though I
would like to add that before you get "agitated", look into things.  Give
us a call.  We have a completely new staff here at the AHA and we are
actually listening to brewers more than is "perceived".

I have included the Koelsch category specifications of the 1997 & 1998 AHA
Style Guidelines and George Fix's "beloved Kurfursten".

1997 AHA Style Guidelines
	1.042-46 O.G.  (10.5-11.5 P)
	20-30 IBUs
	4-5 SRM (7-10 EBC)
	
Kurfursten
	1.050 O.G. (12.5 P)
	32 IBUs
	6 SRM (12 EBC)

1998 AHA Style Guidelines
	1.042-48 O.G.  (10.5-12 P)
	20-32 IBUs
	3.5-6 SRM (7-12 EBC)

Thanks for you time (and bandwidth).

 -  Brian

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association  (303) 447-0816  x 121   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                              (303) 447-2825   (fax)
PO Box 1679                                 brian at aob.org   (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679                info at aob.org     (aob info)
U.S.A.                                        http://beertown.org  (web)


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:43:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Paul A. Hausman" <paul at lion.com>
Subject: Belgian XMass Beer Suggestions

I am planning my 1997 Christmas beer, and this year hope to produce 
a mildly spiced, high gravity beer similar to many of the Belgian 
Christmas Ales.  (Last 3 years have been Brittish styles and I and 
my X-Mass-gift-list-beer-drinkers have tired of them.)


I typically use Wyeast yeasts, and they offer quite a variety of 
belgian ales, more than one designated for higher gravity brews 
(surprise?).  Does anyone have experience with more than one of 
these who can offer some comparisons, favorites, horror stories, etc.

Private e-mail is fine.  If there is any interest, I will be
happy to summarize for the list.  TIA.

- -- 
Paul A. Hausman   <Paul at Lion.com>
Lion Technology Inc., Lafayette, NJ, USA

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:08:51 -0300
From: "David L. Thomson" <dlt at ici.net>
Subject: Reusing/ saving Yeast

Hello fellow brewers,

My first all grain batch is going rather nicely thanks for all your help
over the last two months. The only problem was my wife asking when I
would be done in the kitchen. (I didn't really tell her how long an all
grain batch takes... I focused on how much cheeper it would be!!) My
next question is the american ale yeast I am using is wonderful! And I
would like to reuse it. Is this possible? How do I do it? How long is
the yeast good for? etc.
Thanks
Dave Thomson   dlt at ici.net

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:57:08 -0600
From: jlandrem at atmel.com (John Landreman)
Subject: homebrew club liability

Greetings,

There have been a couple posting lately about homebrew clubs. I would be
interested in hearing how different clubs handle the question of personal
liability. I would guess that the biggest potential problem would be a club
member being involved in a traffic accident that resulted in a personal
injury after having too much to drink at a club meeting.

There was an article in the Summer 1995 issue of Zymurgy that discussed
incorporating your club as a non-profit corporation. By doing this, the
corporation can be sued but in most cases the individual officers can not.
Do many clubs go through this trouble or do they just keep their fingers
crossed that they won't run into any legal problems? Is it possible to
include a waiver in the club charter stating that club members accept
responsibility for their own actions so that they, or theirs family, can
not sue the club (and it's officers) if they are seriously injured or die
in an accident after a meeting? As a club officer I find these questions
very interesting.


Cheers,
John Landreman
Colorado Springs, CO



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:32:19 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re:Converting pre-boil SG to post-boil SG

Loren Asks:
>Does anyone have a formula for predicting the SG of 6 gallons (post-boil)
>of wort on the basis of a pre-boil measurement? I don't like to take
>measurements after the boil, if I can help it, because of sanitation.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
the relationship of your PreBoil SG vs PostBoil SG is very easy to figure if
you consider gravity as a factor of volume (total gravity points_TGP).
simply multiply your PreBoil SG by your PreBoil Vol to get your TGP.. to get
the PostBoil SG simply divide by your PostBoil vol
PreBoilVol x PreBoilSG=TGP=PostBoilVol x PostBoilSG
 ..example.. Preboil 7.25G  at  SG 48 =348 TGP
 .. divide this TGP by 6G (PostBoil Vol) and your PostBoil gravity is 58 (1.058)
this is a very important calc and can be very useful in hitting your target
final gravity for fermentation.  It can be used to determine how much
extract to add to get to a higher gravity, how much more needs to be boiled
off to get a higher gravity or how much water to add to get a lower gravity.
___________________________________________
       JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
               www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 02:41:11 GMT
From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Munich / IPA / LABCO

First of all, thanks to everyone who responded to my requests regarding Munich
malt mashing temps. FWIW, I will probably do a single saccrification rest, or
maybe one at 130-135 briefly. This is only a 1-2 pound mash so it's overall
impact is small.

Thanks also to everyone who replied about my IPA. The bitterness level was
decent, but I was disappointed in the Willamette as a flavor/aroma hop. This is
a personal opinion thing.

I had the opportunity to tour Summit Brewing in the Twin Cities this past
weekend and chat with the head brewer. Their very tasty IPA is hopped with all
East Kent Goldings. I may try that for my next batch, even if it means using a
ton of them. If you are in the Twin Cities area, check out their tour.

I also had the opportunity to visit Sherlock's Home brewpub. To my surprise and
delight, their seasonal brew is a Duesseldorf-style Altbier! Eagerly, I ordered
a pint. It was very nicely malty with a pleasing noble-hop bitterness. In my
mind's eye (tongue?) this is the Altbier I've been trying to brew. Highly
recommended.

Quoting the Russ Loub of LABCO tirade:
>Personally, I have more important things to do than waste my time on the
>internet so you won't be hearing from me again, ever.  Get a life.

As a man of the cloth (I am a Lutheran minister) my strong theological beliefs
prevent me from using the adjective I would most like to use to describe Mr.
Loub's ad hominem riddled tirade. There is no one who is more happy than I that
we will never be graced with Mr. Loub's presence again in this forum.

As far as any "organized" response on the part of the HBD, I think the
Scriptures say it best, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you
will be like him yourself." (Proverbs 26:4 NIV)

It's enough to make a guy want to talk about botulism!
  Matt

Return to table of contents

---