---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Career long mistakes, fridges, and loose talk (GuyG4)
  Filtered beer started fermenting ("Jowe .")
  Re: Wine Yeasts in Beer (Dan Cole)
  Re: The Elusive Igloo (Steve Scott)
  Randy Davis:Conversion Temp (Thomas Bergman)
  English Ales & Barley Wines (John Adams)
  Steinbier? / Draining the lauter tun dry (George De Piro)
  More muckraking ("Dave Draper")
  Radiation, De-flocculation, try it, historical malts ("David R. Burley")
  OOP! Correction (korz)
  Dana's brewery redesign/BJCP guidelines. (korz)
  Wanted: Water profile from YOUR area (brian_dixon)
  Re: Converting pre-boil SG to post-boil SG (brian_dixon)
  Phoenix clubs (Dan Aldrich)
  AHA "Stuff" ("Brian M. Rezac")
  Lactose (DGofus)
  Brewer frustrations (Tom Logan)
  Re: Looking for a good Barrel supplier.. ("Troy Hojel")
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Little Apple Brewing Company (Bill_Rehm)
  Keg lagering (Rich Hampo)
  Saranac Black Forest Clone? (Eugene Sonn)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:42:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: GuyG4 at aol.com
Subject: Career long mistakes, fridges, and loose talk

Dave Draper, geologist and thus of good taste and cheer, sez in HBD 2508:

"Either I have been doing something wrong for years or
have simply not been paying attention while reading the digest (or
both!), because I have always let my lauter drain all the way out
after adding the last of my sparge water."

Well, Dave, me too.  I worked off of gravity and pH for a while, but now just
go by taste, and I haven't shown any problems with oversparging.  There
should be no hydraulic reason to leave sparge water above grain at the end; I
can't think of a chemical reason.  We haven't been doing something wrong for
years.

" although I now have a (working!) brew fridge
that allows me complete control, only one fermentor will fit in there
at a time, and I would like to be able to brew more often than the
time it takes for a batch to go all the way through primary and
secondary fermentation while sitting in the fridge (at least until my
stocks recover from my long hiatus).  If an ale has its primary
fermentation temp controlled by the fridge, say at 68F/20C, until
gravity is only a couple of points above terminal, and I then rack
to a second fermentor that goes to a warmer place (indoors, max
80F/27C), will I lose the advantages I gained by primary-fermenting
at 68/20? Will there be enough yeast activity occurring in the second
fermentor to throw esters and other high-temp fermentation byproducts
that were the reason I got a fridge in the first place? "

Yeast aren't particularily active reproducing in the secondary, so I would
think that byproducts would be of significant concentration. My fridge holds
one carboy and one cornelius if you push on the door.  I ferment lagers in
there, cause here in the north we don't have 80 degree temps in our
basements.  I secondary in the corny, and it seems to work well. You might
try the towel and tub trick for your secondary, also, if you're worried.

Also, in HBD 2508, someone published a letter from Little Apple....I submit
to the collective that interference in this issue is 1) certainly not our
business, and 2) most importantly, can potentially damage Mr. Moline, whose
post on the issue was brief and honorable.  Please, ladies and gentlemen,
back off and let this thing go it's course without unsolicited "help".  If
you're angry at someone, don't patronize the respective establishment.  This
is more critical to individuals than many threads,  and the uninformed (like
me) need to watch their typing.  Or face subpoenas, perhaps?

Cheers,

Guy Gregory
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
Spokane, WA.
Consider Ham and Eggs.  The Chicken is involved, The Pig is committed...


 

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:03:32 PDT
From: "Jowe ." <jowe at hotmail.com>
Subject: Filtered beer started fermenting

Dear HBD

I bought an old bottle of pasteurized, filtered Kolsch, it was past the 
best before date by 6 months, and didnt taste good. The same day I 
brewed a batch of beer and I scooped out a little wort and poured some 
of the beer into the chilled wort and sealed with an airlock.
To my surprise It started fermenting 5 days later, and after 10 days a 
clearly visible yeast layer had formed on the bottom of the bottle.
I figure the yeast must have survived the filtration and pasteurization. 
Has anyone else had these experiences. Does the age of the beer have 
anything to do with this?
Can I use the yeast to brew my own Kolsch?


Jonas

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:12:56 -0400
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Wine Yeasts in Beer

>Has anyone out there is HBD land ever used wine yeasts with a traditional
>beer recipe?

I have used champagne yeasts in my barleywine on occasion. Once because I
apparently killed my starter, the second time just for fun.

I have been really impressed with the cleanness of the fermentation with
champagne yeasts (particularly in big beers and in beers where a little
sweetness (from some higher alcohols) is expected (barleywines in particular).

Plus champagne yeasts' ability to ferment high gravity worts/musts is well
known in the mead/wine community. Just be aware that in a normal gravity
wort, it may turn out drier and more alcoholic that you might expect.

Good luck with your Brown. YMMV.


Dan Cole





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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:27:09 -0400
From: sscott at lightlink.com (Steve Scott)
Subject: Re: The Elusive Igloo

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:12:31 -0400, you wrote:

>I am in the midst of making the jump from extract to all-grain=20
>(grail?) ;-) and would like to use a 7 or 10 gallon cylindrical=20
>Gott/Igloo to serve as a sparge vessel, and a second to hold the=20
>sparge water.
>
>My problem lies in the fact that I can't find the $% at #-ing things=20
>anywhere.  Tried Wal-Mart, Sunny's Surplus, sporting goods stores, et=20
>cetera, ad nauseum.  I would gladly order them through the mail, but I=20
>don't know where to get a catalog that carries them.  Help !  >:-/

Try www.wal-mart.com.  They have online ordering of the 5 and 10 gallon
versions of the Gott Rubbermaid cooler.  Look in their sporting goods
area.  Home Depot has the 7 gallon version for about $22.50. =20


** The problem with the average family today is that it's=20
impossible to support it and the government on one income.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:36:00 -0400
From: Thomas Bergman <TAB at nrc.gov>
Subject:  Randy Davis:Conversion Temp

Randy described the Beamish stout mash temp of 143F. 
 Do you have any idea how
 to replicate the nutty taste of Beamish?
 It is my favorite stout although very 
hard to come by in my parts.

Have you made classic dry stouts and entered in competitions?
  I make a dry stout that many people enjoy,
 OG 1.043, FG 1.014, 45 IBU (estimate), roast barley etc. 
 It always gets slammed in competitions as "not big enough,"
 even though it has same body, bitterness (roast malt and hops)
 of a draft guinness (obviously without
 the tang).   Have you or others had a similar experience
 with your dry stouts?

If reply privately, send to: nospamnewtradbc at aol.com  
delete "nospam"

Thanks


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:24:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: John Adams <jadams at pipeline.cnd.hp.com>
Subject: English Ales & Barley Wines


   The Keg Ran Out Club presents:

     _________________________________________________________________

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                                    &
                              "Barley Wines"
     _________________________________________________________________

   at the "Third Annual KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)"

   Colorado's most outgoing homebrew club, The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC),
   presents an educational forum with:

       Fal Allen
          Brewmaster at Pike Brewing Company, Seattle WA
          Author of "Barley Wines" (coming soon from Brewers Publications)
   
       Sean Franklin
          Head brewer and Owner of Roosters Brewery and Outlaw Brewing Co.,
          Yorkshire England.


   This is a an excellent opportunity to meet local, national, and
   international brewers, sample fine beers, win door prizes and raffle
   items.

   The "World Brewers Forum(tm)" is FREE but attendance is limited so
   get your reservation in NOW!

   There is no better way to start your GABF(sm) week than the Forum(tm)!

   ______________________________________________________________________

   When:  7pm Tuesday, September 30, 1997
   Where: Adam's Mark Hotel
          1550 Court Pl, Denver, (303) 893-3333
   Cost:  FREE!
   RSVP:  (303) 460-1776 (Homebrew Hut) or j_adams at fc.hp.com
   Web:   http://www.henge.com/~mmather/kroc/
   ______________________________________________________________________


   The KROC World Brewers Forum(tm) is brought to you by:
      The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC)
      The American Homebrewers Association
      Birko Corporation
      The Homebrew Hut


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:31:54 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Steinbier? / Draining the lauter tun dry

     Hi all,
     
     First, a question:
     
     For some reason, I can't get the idea of making a Steinbier out of my 
     head.  Does anybody out there have any ideas about what types of rocks 
     to use, how hot to heat them, how to heat them, how to clean them, 
     etc.?
     
     Also, are there special safety concerns?  I would guess that dropping 
     a few 500F rocks into the kettle might cause a bit of an eruption, no?
     
     Also, any ideas on how to move the hot rocks?  I guess if they are 
     small enough, I could just use kitchen tongs, but would using many 
     small rocks present too much surface area for caramelization?
     
     I don't know why I get these things in my head...
     
     -------------------------------------
     
     Somebody (sorry, can't even remember which issue!) recently wrote that 
     they completely drain their lauter tun at the end of sparging, and 
     they wondered if this could be a problem.
     
     In my system, if I drain the lauter tun completely, I get a lot of 
     draff in the run-off.  I believe that this should be avoided.  Perhaps 
     other systems don't work this way, but it is something to be aware of.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:41:23 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: More muckraking

Dear Friends,

I had several very thoughtful replies to my rabble-rousing post about
the AHA guidelines, and we've seen some posts here in the digest too.
First off, I'd like to say that I was not really trying to start a
revolt or anything, but was mainly expressing the strong dismay that
Dr. George's post gave me.  The input I've seen since, however,
suggests that, first, the BJCP is already on the job as far as working
to provide a self-consistent and realistic set of style guidelines,
and by all accounts that is the best place to start in replacing the
AHA's deficient system.  I intend to get involved with this, to the
extent I can, and will sit the next BJCP exam that comes my way as a
first step.  A second thing that becomes apparent is that there are
lots of others who have similar dissatisfactions but who, like me,
have not really done much about them (but this is hardly news to many
readers).  My gut feeling is that the groundswell is building, and
with time a grass-roots change will come about-- and those are the
best kind of changes, for my money, and worth a little wait if need
be. 

Cheers,

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
In my basement, there are cob webs over the fermenter.
    ---Jim Busch


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:32:05 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Radiation, De-flocculation, try it, historical malts

Brewsters:

It would help all people in our society ( if they really wanted help) to
distinguish between radiation and *ionizing* radiation.  It is the latter=

which is used as a sterilant, genetic modifier and potential cancer cause=
r
(and curer) and is a subset of the former.  Radiation, of course, include=
s
radio waves, light, microwaves, etc in addition to gamma rays, x-rays, =

etc.. This is not a complaint about the HBDer's beer sterilization
question, I am just reminded how many silly experiments, fear generation,=

etc. are done in the name of "radiation protection". Witness the recent
(extortion?) attempt to include high voltage lines, cellular telephones,
radio waves as a causative agent for cancer and other BS.  This is an
off-shoot to the much larger issue which has frustrated me about the ener=
gy
policy in this country and our succumbing to big energy ( oil, coal, gas
and labor interests) propaganda in eliminating the safest and cheapest
source of energy for our future. Sorry for providing the thought for the
day that is not brewing related.  No affiliation , etc. - thanks for
listening.
- ------------------------------------------
Paul Henning wants to know of a way to stir his flocculant British ale
yeast mid-fermentation.  Just rack it after about a day (if you have a
large starter) and agitate it towards the end of the racking to pick up t=
he
yeast.  This is easy and equivalent to the "dropping" method employed in
days of old before fermenters had agitators.
- ------------------------------------------
Thanks for interpreting AlK's comment, I did understand his point, as he
did my suggestion to cure the problem of iodine tests giving a premature
endpoint.  AlK doesn't have this problem, since he uses his intuition (an=
d
not the iodine test). He holds his mashes in the saccharification range f=
or
45 minutes or longer as he has indicated in the past.  If he were to
exclusively use the iodine test he would find that he could, perhaps, sto=
p
his saccharification step in about 15 minutes ( as Charlie P does).
Unfortunately. he might also find that his efficiency would drop and his
beers become starchy because he had not fully saccharified his grains. Th=
is
will vary with the type of malts employed, sacch temperature, milling etc=
=2E =

If you get a negative iodine test after boiling the wort sample then your=

KNOW you are complete. Try it, then give me your feedback.
- ------------------------------------------
Like AlK and others, I believe the market for malt types has changed with=

the advance of technology.  I just don't seem to get the proof I desire t=
o
understand the changes. None of the commonly available tests in malt
specifications are unequivocal.  I appeal again for someone to provide
modern tests and methods.  The ones available to us are the same ones use=
d
for many years before  DeCLerk and M&BS were printed.  I would therefore
presume that the comments by these authors on the inadequacy of these tes=
ts
to describe malts still apply today as they did 50 years ago.
- ------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:31:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: OOP! Correction

You knew that in such a long diatribe, errors would be likely.  When I
wrote:

Back to the Subject:
>Both DeClerck and Malting and Brewing Science (MBS) say that more heat-labile
>enzymes are protected from being denatured by stiffer (thicker, i.e. less
>water more malt) mashes.  Although neither book says this explicitly, I read
>this as: stiffer mashes favour the more heat-stable enzymes over the more
>heat-labile ones.

Should have been:
>Both DeClerck and Malting and Brewing Science (MBS) say that more heat-labile
>enzymes are protected from being denatured by stiffer (thicker, i.e. less
>water more malt) mashes.  Although neither book says this explicitly, I read
>this as: stiffer mashes favour the more heat-labile enzymes over the more
>heat-stable ones.                            ^^^^^^
      ^^^^^^

Sorry.

Al.


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:42:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Dana's brewery redesign/BJCP guidelines.

Dana writes:
>1) Is there any reason not to fill the HLT with water out of the Hot tap?
>Will the hot water pick up significally more metals/gunk from the pipes or
>hot water heater than the cold water?

This is something that I've been thinking about quite a bit in the last
few weeks and I'd like to open this topic for discussion.  I *believe*
that the hot water would have *fewer* metals/gunk/*minerals* than cold
water.  Sure, we've all seen the insides of hot water heaters and hot
water pipes... they're all coated with a thick crust of mineral deposits.
Why?  Well, it's because the hot water could not keep these minerals in
solution... *that's* why they were deposited.  For example: hot water
holds less CO2 in solution than cold and therefore is of *higher* pH.
Higher pH water will support *less* calcium bicarbonate than low pH water
and therefore the excess carbonate will precipitate out as calcium
carbonate.   Therefore, I believe that hot water will have *lower* TDS!
Chemists... am I right?

Furthermore, since the pipes are coated with calcium carbonate, this
effectively protects the water from the iron or lead in the plumbing.
Of this I'm pretty certain.

>2) Has anyone ever used a garden hose to fill their HLT? I wish to move my
>brewing out of the kitchen to my balcony but I will have to run a hose out
>there to deliver my water. Will a "drinking quality" hose give any plastic
>flavor to the water? What if hot tap water is used?

I've used a "drinking water" hose for brewing on ten batches or so and
the resulting beer is just as tasty as beer made from kitchen tapwater.

>3) Should I boil the HLT water first then let it cool back down to the
>desired temperature? If free chlorine leaves water just left to sit out a
>couple of days, will heating the water up to 168F drive off the free
>chlorine without boiling? Should I leave the HLT uncovered to facilitate
>this? Should I still boil to get rid of carbonates? My carbonate levels
>aren't that bad and unless you have a second tank to siphon into won't the
>carbonate residue redissolve when you add acid to adjust the sparge water
>pH? Finally, is de-oxidating the water a good enough reason to boil first?

Hmmm... it depends.  I've never worried about boiling my strike or sparge
water and we have pretty high levels of chlorine in our water.  Yes,
the calcium carbonate will re-dissolve when you add acid.

>4)When delivering the hot water from the HLT to the Mash/Lauter-Tun does one
>need to worry about about HSA? We have heard much about the evils of HSA
>when mashing (especially with a RIMS) and yet I often see drawings of sparge
>arms which spray the water down upon the grains from on high, undoubtably
>spashing, causing bubbles and dissolving oxygen?

I try to not splash.  I don't use a sparge arm.  Many commercial breweries,
however, do allow their sparge water to splash.  I believe the difference
may be that their mash tuns are usually enclosed with only a small opening
at the top.  It would not take much time for most of the air in the tun
to be displaced with water vapour.  I run my sparge water through a 5/16"
ID hose which I position "under water" in the tun.  I keep about 1 to 2"
of water over the grain bed.  If you keep your lid on, I think that splashing
may be moot.

>Mash/Lauter-Tun:
>
>I originally wanted plenty of room for big batches but I currently do 5 gal
>batches and probably won't do large batches for a while (I can't use my big
>gas burner). My current mash-tun is a huge 60qt cooler. This results in a
>quite shallow grain bed. I collect the wort with a very long rolled s.s.
>screen (large easymasher-type) which goes the whole length of the cooler. I
>suspect that my geometry leaves a lot of grain in dead zones where there is
>not a lot of water flow.
>
>1) Is there any reason the s.s. rolled sreen shouldn't run the entire length
>of the cooler. The offcial EasyMasher(TM) is quite small.

No.  *Theoretically* you want to draw runnings from as large an area as
possible, but *practically* I've found that if you make sure to take 1 hour
to take 6 or 7 gallons worth of runnings, the EasyMasher(tm) yield is so
close to the other designs (Zapap, Pico, Slotted Copper, etc.), that it
is within measurement error for most of us.

>2) Is my very shallow grain bed a problem? I am thinking of switching to the
>more common round beverage coolers. Any specific sugestions on sizes and
>makes would be appreciated.

I've read where an 18" grain bed is ideal.  Mine is about 12" to 18",
depending on how big a beer I'm making.  You already have a 60qt cooler,
so why not get a 5gal Gott?  Use the 5gal for smaller beers and the 60qt
for bigger batches and bigger beers (i.e. Barleywines, Doppelbocks, etc.).

>3) Would a small volume pump (not RIMS throughput) be of use recirculating
>to help even out the mash bed temperature and clarify the wort?

I've never had to recirculate more than 1 quart using my EasyMasher(TM).
My new system is EasyMasher-like (photos coming soon!) but has several
screens so I have ro recirc about 1/2 gallon.  Personally, I
would rather spend the money elsewhere in my system.

***
Louis writes:
>As for alternatives to the AHA, on style guidelines we
>already have an excellent one: the BJCP.  A growing number
>of competitions are opting to BJCP categories and style 
>guides rather than the AHA's, and I encourage all competition
>organizers to consider doing so.  As for alternatives to 

The existing BJCP guidelines have their own problems.  For
example, the IPA IBU range goes down to 30 (far too low)
and under Duesseldorfer Altbier, it says "They also tend to
have a grainy, even harsh or astringent malt flavor." (GADS, NO!!!)
These are but two of many problems.

There is a committee working on new BJCP guidelines, but alas,
it has been stalled for the last two weeks as the moderator/leader
is loaded-down with day-job work.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:54:12 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Wanted: Water profile from YOUR area


I'm doing some research on my own and studying water chemistry for beer
brewing, and tossing together some software to do water synthesis with
(for brewers of course!).  As a result, I'm trying to expand the
database of water profiles that I have, and to try to fill in some of
the gaps in the published water profiles (namely, pH).  Do you live in a
major city (USA or anywhere in the world) where beer brewing is common? 
Common means: professional breweries of any type exist and/or a
reasonably large number of homebrewers exist.  Here's the info I'm
looking for:

Calcium, mg/L of Ca++
Sulphate, mg/L of SO4--
Magnesium, mg/L of Mg++
Sodium, mg/L of Na+
Chloride, mg/L of Cl-
Hardness (please express what this means in your profile, ex. Mg and Ca
"as mg/L  CaCO3" or whatever)
Alkalinity (specify if "as mg/L CaCO3" or otherwise)
CO3-- (specify if "mg/L of CO3--" or "CO3-- and HCO3- as mg/L of CO3--"
or whatever "as mg/L CaCO3", other or unknown?)
HCO3- (if known, specify if "as mg/L of CaCO3" or "CO3-- and HCO3- as
mg/L HCO3-", or "as mg/L CaCO3" etc.)
pH (this is very important and the most commonly lacking piece of
information)
Any other ion concentrations that you have available for the water
profile(s) you are submitting


Note that a lot of this is available in the literature and via various
software programs (and I've collected most of this info), BUT they
nearly always lack a pH measure.  If YOU have the appropriate pH for a
particular water profile, please include it!

Note also that I'm very interested in new information that is normally
not found in the literature such as the water profile for YOUR city
(nobody's city is unimportant!).  AND this means around the world.  This
means not only the usual US, European, and UK brewing capitols of the
world, but also the smaller towns in those areas, and wherever else in
the world that brewing takes place (including YOUR house if you water is
fairly representative of the town you live in or near).

Once gathered, all data will be posted to HBD as a gesture of thanks to
the openness and generally awesome neighborly attitude seen around
here...by far the best listserve in the world!  (And to be useful to
anyone else researching this stuff, developing software, or whatever).

Thanks in advance!
Brian Dixon

PS: Responses via email are also fine, and probably a more reliable way
to ensure I get the info.  Here's my email addresses:
brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com (at Hewlett Packard, where I live when the sun
is up)
mutex at proaxis.com (Mutex Company, my own business and personal email
address)


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.

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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 14:30:46 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Converting pre-boil SG to post-boil SG

>Does anyone have a formula for predicting the SG of 6 gallons
(post-boil)
>of wort on the basis of a pre-boil measurement? I don't like to take
>measurements after the boil, if I can help it, because of sanitation.
>
>Thanks!
>Loren

I know others have responded with very good answers, so I'll keep this
brief.  I just wanted to add 2 more minor things: a carefully calibrated
a dip-stick is a good way to measure the hot volumes of wort, and (shame
on me) Papazian's books have an estimate of the number of quarts or
gallons of sparge water per pound of grain.  On the dip-stick idea, I
use an aluminum rod which has a small 1" square foot aluminum welded to
the end (purely optional on the foot thing) that helps keep the rod
vertical when I make measurements.  I took a small file and made 1/2
gallon nicks in the rod from 1 gallon up to 10 gallons, and labeled the
rod with a permanent pen.  Nothing so fantastic is needed though.  A
wood dowel with pen lines on it is fine too.  When trying to get the
measurement critically correct, I place the dip-stick into the wort and
slide a tongue-depressor (otherwise known as a stick) down the dip-stick
until the depressor just touches the top of the wort, then I read that
point from my dip-stick.  As far as Papazian's rule of thumb for sparge
water goes, I can't remember what it was because I'm at work and my
books are at home, but I think it was about 1/2 gallon per pound of
grain.  For 10 pounds of grain, that'd produce about 5 gallons of wort
plus the initial liquid present in the mash for a total of around 7.5 to
8 gallon of wort (pre-boil)...I think that's what his estimate is.
Personally, I just heat up about 10 gallons of sparge water and sparge
until a) correct SG drops below 1.010, b) pH rises above 6.0, or c) boil
pot is full.  Now that I have my new PolarWare 10-gallon pot, I usually
stop at or before rule a) says too, and I've never had a problem with
rising pH's.

Brian


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.

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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:52:13 -0700
From: Dan Aldrich <daldrich at earthlink.net>
Subject: Phoenix clubs

Just relocated to the Phoenix area(Goodyear). Can anyone recommend any
shops or clubs in the area?

Many thanks,
 -Dan


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:55:05 -0600
From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: AHA "Stuff"

Louis K. Bonham wrote:
> What does it say about the AHA when Dr. Fix has now "washed
> his hands" (his words) of that organization?
> 
> I've known George for years, and, like Dave, George has 
> been decidedly apolitical when it comes to the various
> controversies surrounding the AHA. (I'm sure George gets 
> more than enough political BS in his administrative duties 
> at the university.)  If things at the AHA have gotten so 
> bad that even Dr. Fix -- who has worked closely with the 
> AHA for years and has donated huge amounts of his time
> and effort -- is now ditching that organization, then 
> it should be very clear that the AHA has major problems. 

Louis,

Are we talking about the same George J. Fix, Ph.D.?  If so, Brewers
Publications, a division of the AOB, just published his latest book, An
Analysis of Brewing Techniques.  (I have it sitting on my desk.  It's looks
like a great book.  I haven't read it yet, but I know where you can get a
copy.)  Dr. Fix will not only be a Judge on the Professional Panel Blind
Tasting (PPBT) for the GABF, but will also lead one of the Beer Tours for
the AHA at the Members Only Tasting.  Dr. Fix has also graciously offered
his time and expertise to be a Guest Speaker on AHA's TechTalk.  Dr. Fix,
as I pointed out in my previous posting, was instrumental in changing the
Koelsch category in the AOB Style Guidelines for 1998.  We consult with him
fairly regularly.  As a matter of fact, I talked to him before posting my
comments in reference to the Koelsch category question.  (I did that to
verify my facts and to not speak for a man that I hold in such high
regard.)

Admittedly, I don't know all of the AHA history of all of the personalities
in the brewing community.  And when I started working at the AHA, I did
attempt to look into past goings on.  However, it's very unproductive.  Jim
Parker and I agree that if the AHA is to move forward, we need to look in
that direction.  Not backwards.  I hope that George Fix, you and others
sense this and work with us towards uniting the brewing community not
dividing it.

The entire AHA staff is now made up of new people and we're willing to work
towards the future and the betterment of homebrewing.  It gets a little
frustrating when you're still commenting on incidences that happened when
our predecessors were here.  We know there were problems in the past.  We
are here to make changes and improve the AHA in the future.


You also brought up the BJCP as an "alternative to the AHA".  In know the
split between the AHA and the BJCP in 1995 was ugly and many are still
upset.  But, again that's history.  I think it is good to have two separate
organizations.  It keeps things in check.  But I don't see the BJCP as an
alternative, rather I see both organizations complimenting each other.  At
least that's the direction that I am working in.

For the record, the AHA currently works closely with the BJCP.  The money
received from every competition that is sanctioned with the AHA is split
with the BJCP for them to supply a judges list.  

The AHA's mission (and we take it to heart) is to promote homebrewing.  As
other groups, businesses and organizations pop up, our attitude is if it
will help homebrewing we'll do our best to help them.

PS - Louis, thanks for agreeing to lead one of the MOT tours.  You and I
can arm wrestle over your kevlar vest!  See you there!

Keep Brewin'

 -  Brian

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association  (303) 447-0816  x 121   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                              (303) 447-2825   (fax)
PO Box 1679                                 brian at aob.org   (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679                info at aob.org     (aob info)
U.S.A.                                        http://beertown.org  (web)


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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:57:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: DGofus at aol.com
Subject: Lactose

I am trying my first try at a chocolate cream stout. The recipe calls for
lactose. When do I add this? Someone at a brew supply house said at boiling
and a article that I read said at bottling. Which is right? Any guidlines for
this brew?
TIA private email ok.

Bob Fesmire
Dgofus at aol.com

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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:30:01
From: Tom Logan <tlogan at idir.net>
Subject: Brewer frustrations

I'm an extract brewer who has had what I consider a few successful batches
consumed.  I stopped by the friendly local brew shop yesterday, to stock up
for the next brews.  Wanting to make a pale ale and a stout, I ordered a
pound of crystal and a pound of roasted barley.  They asked if I wanted it
crushed, which I did.  I looked around while the process was going on,
picking up some other items and not finding several others.  When I paid
the bill, I noticed the grain sack had 1# crystal, 1# roasted.  Not putting
1+1 together, I put it in the car and went on my way.  When I started
putting things away, I opened the grain sack to remove the 2 sacks of
grain--I thought.  To my dismay, the roasted and crystal was combined!

My question is-what to do with the grain.  I looked at the few books I
have, none have the 2 grains combined.  If I make a stout, can I add some
more roasted, or just throw it away?

I take some blame for not being painfully specific, but the guy never asked
if I wanted them separate or together.  I have avoided mail order to
support the local guy, this was the final straw.  No wonder his business
has fallen off, as evidenced by the dwindling stock.  grumble, grumble.  I
even had the brief flash of opening my own shop, but sanity prevailed.  

On a happier note, I used liquid yeast for the first time-Wyeast #1098 for
a pale ale.  Following the package instructions for starter, it said to
pitch when reaching high kraeusen-about 12 hours.  After 36 hours, not much
was going on yet, so I made my beer and pitched it any way, thinking that I
could use a package of dry yeast if nothing happened.  Boy, was I wrong.
It took off like a rocket.  OG was 1046, and 3 days later 1010.  Made a
believer out of me so far.  I'll rack to secondary tomorrow, and am looking
forward to the final product.

Thanks for any ideas on the grain.

Tom


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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:01:36 -0600
From: "Troy Hojel" <hojel at flash.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a good Barrel supplier..

>I'm looking to buy a 10 gal Oak Barrel to ferment some Barleywine etc.
>So far, I've been looking for a French Oak barrel, with a light to
>medium toast, tight grain, and wide/fat rather than the long/thin type.
>Are these good qualities?

About 6 months ago, I purchased 4 (10 gallon) oak barrels from a small
company out of Calistoga, CA.  The name of the company is Micro-Barrel
(707) 942-1521.  They make to-order barrels of any size and from any type of
oak.  What's really neat is that he can use previously used oak from the
wine industry.  This saves on the breaking in time (white or red wine
barrels).  I'm using mine for lambics and sour browns.  They are priced
about what others cost, if not a little less.  Plus, the quality is
outstanding, and like the others, they are guaranteed.  Hope this helps.

Troy

Brewing Applets
www.flash.net/~hojel/



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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 02:46:03 PDT
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

		The Jethro Gump Rport

>From: Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at qc.bell.ca>
>Subject: Looking for a good Barrel supplier...

	I've posted on this in the past....I'm sorry to state that I can't find
much right now,  (I'm sort of pre-occupied, and much is still in
boxes.....though I guess a flaw in the J.G. Report is that I don't list
subjects?) ) but maybe you can find it in the archives....about a company
that supplies casks, barrels, chips, etc....There are other company's out
there....I think I first found out about them through the trades...check
All About Beer, BT, New Brewer, etc.

>From: korz at xnet.com
>Subject: Wine Yeasts

>Mike has a stuck ferment on his "Brown Ale" fermented at 62F with 1028.

	I have a tale to tell about using champagne yeast for fermenting
beer....it will be out soon, as part of another story....some may have been
told before...

>From: korz at xnet.com
>Subject: pantyhose beer

>Cory suggests using pantyhose as a hop bag.  I would advise against that
>as the dyes in pantyhose are somewhat beer-soluble. 

	Hate to, but have to disagree... Al is right, but.....
	I have used them for quite some time, not only for homebrewing, but also
in some other setting...as a 'filter' for an inadequate mash tun design,
but also for dry-hopping.....nylon is a great material, you can boil it to
death....and quite cheap too, in this application.....
	Recognized the dye issue, and called the manufacturer....spoke to one
person after the other and so on.... the manufacturers also sell what the
call 'greige' (pronounced 'grey') goods, which are the hose, undyed, to
other companies, which then dye and package them for other markets, and
price ranges....
	I think they lost interest in me, when they learned that I would only want
100 pairs per year of the undyed stuff....they are used to selling a
hundred thousand pairs....
	So, back to square one......buy them in 3-packs at the grocery store, five
or six boxes at a time...the lightest shade available, for lowest dye
content...take them home, and add to boiling water,  all at once in a 3
gallon pot for 5 min.....pull them out, allow to cool...wring, rinse,
re-boil ( that is, add them to another batch of boiling water) for 5
min....cool....then wash them in the home washer, no soap, then into the
dryer......untangle the bloody mess that they were, and take them back to
the brewery for use as a filtration aid and for dry-hopping......YMMV...

>From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
>Subject: AHA Guidelines (part 2)

	Suffering from a 'pickled brain' as I am, undoubtedly I don't know what
the hell I'm talking about....but also as a member of the AHA, and a
hanger-on to the IBS, I wish to thank Brian for this speedy response and
correction to a 'perceived' need......
	Hearing that this response even pleases George Fix, one of the 'Gods of
Brewing,' ( a personal term I use to describe those I am in awe of, and
there are many...)  pleases me..... 
	But being an 'idealist,' maybe I'm not gifted enough to have 'stolen' this
idea.........only just stupid enough to state it.....
	I don't know......what do you say...Dave in Dallas?

>From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold).
>Subject: Munich / IPA / LABCO

>It's enough to make a guy want to talk about botulism!
 > Matt

	No, Sir, It's "Forgive Them, Lord, For They Know Not What They Do."


Jethro on Labco....
	There will be a response.....you didn't think I was dead yet, did you?  As
much as I wish that things were otherwise, they aren't.....
	Do me a favor....stop any attempts to discuss this with Mr. Kimbrough,
and/or Mr. Loub.......they just don't get it.......
	Understand that I have never lost my depth of gratitude and respect, to
and for, the 'owners' of the LABCO, nor the staff, nor the
customers....(others need not apply)......
	I guess I lied when I said 'this will be my last post'....I was only
trying to ameliorate a situation that could harm my former
'owners'.......obviously, circumstances have changed,.... but some things
do require documentation........and I have it....you will see it....
	Thank you for the support.....
	I remain....

J.G.
Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"


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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:12:12 -0600
From: Bill_Rehm at DeluxeData.com
Subject: Little Apple Brewing Company


I have tried my best to keep from posting on this subject, hoping it would
stop and we all could get back to REAL brewing issues.  This in not a
question of anything but ownership, if the recipe was developed as a part
of the job the employer owns it.  In this case it would be immoral for the
brewmaster who is no longer employed to call it his, it is owned by his
former employer.  If it was developed before his employment or on his own
time and expense it is owned by the brewmaster.  I have to believe, from
what I have seen here,  that in this case ownership is in the hands of the
brewpub(LABC) and they had every right to do with it what they pleased, if
not why were brewing notes at the pub in the first place.  I beg of all of
you, make your own decision on this matter, if you think boycotting is a
good idea then by all means never go there again, but if they serve a good
product and you like then go back again and again.  I wish the Little Apple
Brewing Company was closer to my home I would go and give it a try, if they
serve good beer, I'd go back.

What's wrong with this country is too many people just piss and moan about
any- and everthing that happens.  Reality check everybody, THIS IS THE REAL
WORLD, #$ at % HAPPENS!!!



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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:41:02 -0400
From: rhampo at ford.com (Rich Hampo)
Subject: Keg lagering

In #2510, Brian in Austin asks about burping lagering kegs:

When I lager in a soda keg, I just use an airlock. It is
very easy: Just take off the gas in fitting, take
out the poppet, and put the fitting back. Get some short (1/2 - 1")
pieces of thick tubing of various diameters and build up an
adapter from the airlock OD to the poppet ID. 

 at          at 
 at          at     
 at          at 
 at          at 
 at          at 
 at  at  at  at    at  at  at  at  
    at    at 
  X at    at X
  X at    at X
 #X at    at X#
 #X    X#
 #      #
 #|    |#
 #|    |#
 #|    |#
  |    | 

The cheesy ascii art above shows this. The ---- is the gas fitting,
the #### is the large tubing, the XXXX is the smaller tubing, and
the  at  at  at  at  is the airlock. This works great for me since I had some
short lengths of tubing in the junk drawer. Now I don't have to 
vent the keg everyday.

Good Brewing!

Richard Hampo
H&H Brewing Ltd.

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:17:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eugene Sonn <eugene at dreamscape.com>
Subject: Saranac Black Forest Clone?

Hello HBD, especially those in the Northeast,
	I'm looking to see if anyone's had success brewing a beer
approximating Saranac's Black Forest.  While it's usually been available
in kegs, I've seen it in bottles recently so I think more of you folks
have had a chance to try it.  They call it a German style black beer.  I
understand a bit about the style, but I also know they use both imported
and domestic hops in the beer, making a traditional black beer recipe
incorrect.  Thanks for any help in this matter.

Eugene
eugene at nova.dreamscape.com


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---