---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: s and Tribulations in the Commercial Brewing World (brian_dixon)
  re: Wort Storage? (richard l scholz) (Richard Scholz)
  Brewing in kegs (Shreefal Mehta)
  re: GABF (Sort of...) ("Michel J. Brown")
  re: beer bingeing ("Michel J. Brown")
  re: 2L soda bottles ("Michel J. Brown")
  re: Malt Extract Tang - not... ("Michel J. Brown")
  Thanks, OG calc help ("MacRae Kevin J"Kevin.MacRae)
  Re:  Competition Guidelines ("Brian M. Rezac")
  Painted Labels ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Coffee Stout ("Michael Kowalczyk")
  Insulating Sankey kegs (Harlan Bauer)
  Stainless Ball Lock Disconnects (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  fast ferm update response (haafbrau1)
  RE: Sankey insulation / RE: dial thermometers / mold in fridge ("Keith Royster")
  BEER WARS (Richard Scholz)
  RE: Fast Fermentation Follow-up ("King, Owen A")
  Competition Reminder (Jim Hinken)
  p-cooking and fermentable sugars. (kathy)
  re: beer - Science or art? (Lou Heavner)
  bottled brewing water (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
  RE: GFCI trip ("Sornborger, Nathan")
  Re: esters (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Insulating Sankey Kegs/Dial Thermometers (Ronald Babcock)
  New Extract (RANDY ERICKSON)
  Sweetening Up Fruit Beer/Crazy Lambic Idea ("Tkach, Christopher")
  RE:Wort Storage? (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
  RE: Overnight Mashing Question (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
  RE: IS ANY ? A BAD ONE? (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
  Re: Trashcan Chiller (Doug Jones)
  overpriming (Michael Fay)
  Cleaning Stainless Steel (John Palmer)
  Enameled Steel Pots (Landman106)
  Insulating Sankey Kegs/Dial Thermometers ("Welsch, John")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 11:28:39 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: s and Tribulations in the Commercial Brewing World

[snip]
> I've been there so many times: "Let's do something good together, and
>everyone will be happier."  I don't know why it doesn't work out, but
it
>never seems to.  Wish I had a clue why monetary interests take priority
>over quality and humane behavior, but that is outside of my
>understanding and this forum.
[snip]

The explanation of why monetary interests take priority is very simple,
at least where comes from anyway.  There are 5 ways of thinking when
making a decision concerning other people:

Win-Win: You decide a plan of action that benefits each party involved.

Win-Lose: You decide a plan of action that benefits you, and makes sure
the others don't benefit.

Win: You decide a plan of action that benefits you, but don't consider
the affects on others.

Lose-Lose: You decide a plan of action that doesn't benefit you, and
also doesn't benefit others.

Lose-Win: You always make sure your decisions benefit others more than
yourself.


The US didn't start out that way, but it very quickly became an
environment where it good business could be accomplished.  As the
country grew, this became more true.  This results in a capitalistic
attitude of course, and even becomes a part of our culture.  We are
raised in an environment that encourages and respects success of this
sort.  As a result, the Win-Lose attitude has become quite strong and is
a ruling principle in business practices.  If you don't do it, someone
else will and your benevolent efforts will become for naught.
Therefore, I propose that the experiences of microbrewers versus
mondobrewers is a natural (for the US) evolution of their business, and
should have been foreseen by those not naive.

Brian


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.

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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:45:56 -0400
From: Richard Scholz <rscholz at ml.com>
Subject: re: Wort Storage? (richard l scholz)

Randy Kinsman writes in HBD #2532 
about how to store wort from a 2bbl system for resale.

1. unhopped( I assume ) cold wort at ambient temps & OG's (1.30-1.100)
   is probably some of the best medium for microbe growth know to man.

2. So he'll produce ~60gals of wort, sell 5-10 customers 6 to 12 gals
   each that they take home , add hops and boil (again) ? Can you
do        this cost effectively? and how to take home 12gallons of wort?

3. Commercial malt extract is dehydrated to ~ 20% moisture content.
   This makes it less suceptible to contamination due to the
osmotic        pressure of such a thick liquid. The extract sucks the
water out of      anything that falls in, thus dehydrating any wild
yeast, bacteria        etc.,somewhat inhibiting their growth.

So Randy, Do you plan to boil down your 2bbls of wort to 12 gals of
extract or just store the wort at full dilution?

At full dilution, you'll have a hard time keeping it very long unless
you "can" or irradiate it.( and you all thought that thread was dead ).
Even reduced(water wise not chemically for you scientifically inclined)
you need good sterile food grade containers.(some shops buy drums of
extract from malters and sell it at about half the price of canned if
you put it in your own container) Briess sells 5gal buckets of extract
for about $40 to the trade in pallet size quanities. Good Luck as a
Semi-Pro. and I hope these points help your endeavers.      

- -- 
Later,
Richard L Scholz

bklyn ny
rscholz at aol.com

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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:31:39 -0500
From: Shreefal Mehta <SMEHTA at MEDNET.SWMED.EDU>
Subject: Brewing in kegs

Hi y'all.

i have not brewed in over a year or so and am now getting back to
it... My carboys are inaccessible right now but i have two kegs with
me :-)  (empty :(  ).

My question is: Can i brew in the keg directly? When do i close it?
If i close it right after pitching, will the buildup in CO2 stop the
fermentation? Or is it ok? Long ago, when i was regularly reading the
digest, i remember someone reporting on this, but my search of the
archives did not pull up anything directly related...

Please email me soon if you have any suggestions or ideas about
this., as i want to get started soon - i have a year of nonbrewing to
catch up on... :-)

Ciao
Shreefal Mehta
smehta at mednet.swmed.edu 

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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:49:45 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: GABF (Sort of...)

>Did anyone go to the Rock Bottom Brewery, and try their Cask
>Conditioned Ale? 

Well, if its in line with the rest of their malarky that they try to pass
off as a micro brew pub, then I'm not at all surprised. They are without
honor, and I do not trust them!

>It is their Red Ale (I don't remember the name).  I tried one, and I
couldn't drink it.  >Maybe the cask had been there too long, but it was
bad.

Well, that goes along with their service, and their attitude. Reminds me of
LABC...

>They tried to tell me it was fine, but I'm afraid I've had too many real
ales in the UK >to buy into that.

Well what do you expect from liars and cheaters? Just goes with the
territory IMHO.

>The Pints Pub has their own Cask Conditioned Ale that was an E.S.B.
>I ordered one, and thought I got a Porter!!  It was so dark you couldn't
>see through it, and it had the complex flavor structure of a Porter.

Ever since the bean counting suits got into brew pubs for the profit, this
has been the result: too many innovations based upon ignorance of the
facts, and names used to beguile the public into accepting their dictum as
proof of their "superior" product.

>Although it was fresh and served properly, I never would have thought it
>was an E.S.B.  Honestly, if I had just been served this beer as a blind
>sample, I would have thought I was drinking a Porter.  

These new profit oriented brew pubs (nothing against money, just don't
think profit should be the namesake of quality) know next to nothing of
style, as they are geared more towards making a fast buck rather than
turning out a quality product. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good
brew pubs out there, but there's also an alarming trend towards self
defined beers based upon marketing strategies without style substantiation
to go along with it.

>Are the guidlines *really* that broad for an E.S.B.? I thought gold to
copper with 14 >SRM being the upper end of the scale was the range for an
E.S.B.  (At least
>that's how the one *I* just brewed looks!!!)

That may well be the reasonable approach, but you're assuming that truth in
labeling laws apply to products on premises. There needs to be an industry
watchdog that can take to task those who are less than honest about the
brews they produce. Then again, it could just as well be the industry too,
remember those ads in the trade journals that tout "ale in seven days,
lager in twenty-one"? Or my favorite -- "no special training required;
turnkey systems for non-brewing or non-technical people". With help like
this from the industry, who needs enemies?!?!?

			    Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
        		              homemade at spiritone.com 
	           http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
	               "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                           "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                                       Big Man Brewing (R) 1996

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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:18:10 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: beer bingeing

Andy: While your article citation is interesting, it has three *serious*
flaws that I can see just from casual observation. First, simple
innumeration of a beverage's consumption (aka beer) tells you nothing.
Second, the relative volume is not mentioned -- six quarts or liters are
completely different than six pints or `halbs', not so? Finally, alcohol
concentration by volume or weight is not mentioned since I would imagine
that 3.2 beer would be significantly different from 11.2 beer. So remember
the caveat in alleged scientific studies -- what are the variables, who are
the researchers, why is the study being performed, and who is paying for
the study and what do they stand to gain from this supposed research. I
strongly suspect that there was personal gain, or some kind of agenda (like
an anti-beer crusade). I've been the PI and have assisted in many
scientific studies, and designed several personally.

			    Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
        		              homemade at spiritone.com 
	           http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
	               "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                           "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                                       Big Man Brewing (R) 1996

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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:47:11 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: 2L soda bottles

>
>Would like to try saving some beer in 2L soda bottles but after rinsing
>they still seem to have a strong "soda pop" odor. Any suggestions on how
to
>remove this odor?
>
Have you tried 2L *water* bottles? If those are not available, then you can
`sweeten' the pop bottles with good old Arm'n'Hammer soda (~1/4 cup per
quart) for a few days. Best to use clear type soda bottles (ie 7-UP,
Sprite, or other clear soft drinks) in dark colored plastic. I like the
dark blue water bottles myself :^)

			    Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
        		              homemade at spiritone.com 
	           http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
	               "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                           "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                                       Big Man Brewing (R) 1996

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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:42:14 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: Malt Extract Tang - not...

Dave, you may be correct in *one* instance of what causes malt extract
`tang'. HSA afaik tastes like butterscotch (diacetyl?) and is probably not
responsible for the majority flavor of the `tang'. I liken the flavor to
coffee, that is instant coffee tastes pretty bad, and instant wort is
pretty much the same thing IMHO. Full mash brewing tastes better IMHO due
to the use of primordial ingredients, just like whole bean fresh ground
coffee tastes better than instant. In the middle we have the partial
mashers or steepers, and the coffee analogy of the percolator grind. Then
again, what is more subjective than taste? YMMV, but I feel that my coffee
analogy seems reasonable. No scientific data, just my personal subjective
experience of the past 25 years. TTYL, God Bless, ILBCNU!
			    Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
        		              homemade at spiritone.com 
	           http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
	               "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                           "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                                       Big Man Brewing (R) 1996

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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:43:00 EDT
From: "MacRae Kevin J"Kevin.MacRae at peachtreecityga.ncr.com
Subject: Thanks, OG calc help

Thanks to everyone who helped me with my calculation.
Besides the postings here I received many helpful and encouraging private   
posts, some are summararized below:

1.   Forget it, use the hydrometer next time bozo.
2.   Relax, Don't worry, Have a homebrew.
3.   Wake up, Have a homebrew, Don't worry.
4.   Wait for warmer weather, and then try calculating.
5.   Collect everyones contributed 2 cents and buy a calculator.
6.   Use science like the rest of us and guess.
7.   Throw 3 darts at the board, total thme and put "1.0" in front.
8.   I just taught my 11 year old this.
9.   Have a party, invite all yer shoeless kin, y'all aught to have enuff   
fingers and toes for figurin'.
10. Now, if I could only balance my checkbook.

Thanks again for all the help.

Now for the clincher, with only 10 fingers, 10 toes, and 1 check digit,
how do I figure how many beers I had last night?

Kevin MacRae
Kevin.MacRae at PeachtreeCityGA.NCR.COM  

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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:45:05 -0600
From: "Brian M. Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Re:  Competition Guidelines

Peter Garofalo of Syracuse, NY wrote:
> Pushing the envelope is one thing; no style guidelines are engraved in
> stone. Yes, competitions are subjective (usually referred to as
> "crapshoots" on another forum pertaining to judging). I am tired of
> hearing complaints about this. It is easy to become a rock-thrower, not
so
> easy to do something tangible to improve the situation. My suggestion?
> Join the BJCP and work hard to become the best judge you can. Give
> something back to the hobby.  

Here, here!  I also subscribe to "another forum pertaining to judging" and
am very aware of the large amount of work that many BJCP judges contribute
in "giving back to the hobby".  I don't think that criticism is a bad
thing, but make it constructive and be willing to pitch in.  Join the BJCP,
organize a competition, get creative!

 -  Brian

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association  (303) 447-0816  x 121   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                              (303) 447-2825   (fax)
PO Box 1679                                 brian at aob.org   (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679                info at aob.org     (aob info)
U.S.A.                                        http://beertown.org  (web)




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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:14:57 -0400
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Painted Labels

Mark S. Johnston asked for suggestions on removing painted labels. Has =
anyone tried a light application with a butane torch to loosen the =
paint? I wouldn't want to do this on a case or more but preserving one =
nice bottle for a special occasion would be worth the effort. I'd =
recommend trying the process on a Corona bottle first in case it doesn't =
work out.



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Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:04:53 -0700
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Coffee Stout

Tonight I bottled a stout and did the following:
1. Used a French Coffee Press and made 4 cups of coffee with 12 scoops of
Starbucks coffee.
2. Let the boiling water sit in the coffee press for 30 minutes.
3. Filtered through a coffee filter ( the press lets gunk through)
4. Boiled and primed as usual.

I'll let you know in 3 weeks what it tastes like, but it tasted great going
in the bottle.

Got the idea from the HBD archives... I love this sport!

 - Mike from Chicago.

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:18:38 -0500
From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: Insulating Sankey kegs

Eric Schoville asks:

>Does anyone have any great ideas for insulating Sankey kegs?  

>I guess my ideal insulation would be:
>1) Resistant to high temps
>2) Water resistant/proof
>3) Possibly in the form of a removable "jacket"


Here's what I use on my mash tun:

1.5-in. rigid fiberglass commercial duct insulation. It's made by
CertainTeed and can be found in major cities at places that specialize in
insulation. Look in the BUSINESS Yellow Pages under "insulation".

The size you want is for 16-in. ducts--exactly the size of a budwizer keg.
It looks just like the foam stuff they sell at Home Despot(sic) for copper
water pipe except it's bigger and made of rigid fiberglass. I permanantly
enclosed mine in sheet aluminum, but since it is "clam-shaped" it could be
used as a removable jacket. You might want to duct tape the thing to keep
the fibers from getting into your wort. I think it's rated to 400*F. Since
mine is encased in aluminium I don't have a problem with my gas-fired mash tun.

Hope this helps,
Harlan

   
         Harlan Bauer              ...malt does more than Milton can   
        Carbondale, IL             To justify God's ways to man.       
     <blacksab at midwest.net>                          --A.E. Houseman   
   


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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:58:12 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Stainless Ball Lock Disconnects


I didn't get the posters name, I thought someone would have mentioned this
already.  Stainless ball lock disconnects are available through Braukunst.
Their web site is:  http://www.braukunst.com

Never bought anything from them, but they got some cool stuff.
Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI



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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:53:12 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: fast ferm update response

I use the water/ice container method for ale ferms with great success. 
My trick is to fill several 1L bottles 3/4 to 4/5's full of water and
freeze them.  These get rotated from cooler to freezer as needed.  The
advantage is a constant level of water in the tub, and not having to buy
lots of ice.  YMMV.

cravat emptier  (keg or bottle emptier just didn't sound as good :-)  )
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:05:50 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: RE: Sankey insulation / RE: dial thermometers / mold in fridge

Eric Schoville <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com> asks about Insulating Sankey
Kegs and Dial Thermometers 

I use an insulated sankey for my mash.  You can buy fiberglass
insulation blankets made specifically for hotwater heaters at the
hardware store.  They are the same as the kind you put in your attic
except that they have an external shell of vinyl so they are water
proof.  For the bottom of my keg I used a can of expanding spay-on
foam insulation (also from the hardware store). This stuff hardens
into a rigid foam shell.

Now for my question: I am developing a mold problem in my 
fermentation fridge, which is kept in the low 70's.  This is no 
surprise, but I was wondering how others handle this.  Do you clean 
it regularly, ignore it, or somehow inhibit its growth?  I've heard 
of people mixing a cap-full of mouthwash in a gallon of paint to make 
it resistant to mold.  I don't want to paint the inside of my fridge, 
but I'm wondering if there might be a similar trick I could use.

And finally, someone (sorry, I deleted the original) in a recent HBD
sang the praises for Moving Brews and mentioned their web address as
www.ays.net/movingbrews/introduction.html.  While this address will
work, you are actually bypassing the front page which includes
frames for improved navigation. So the more correct address is
simply http://www.ays.net/movingbrews/. 

Keith Royster - keith at ays.net
Mooresville, North Carolina

"Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the
world, I can't help but cry. I mean I'd love to be skinny like that 
but not with all those flies and death and stuff." - Mariah Carey

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:42:28 -0400
From: Richard Scholz <rscholz at ml.com>
Subject: BEER WARS

And you thought competition for market share was tough in the USA:
Here's an editoral from the Wall Street Journal 10/17/97 
(used without permission) Not directly homebrew related,but ?

    "Somewhere along the Mekong River
 between Thailand and Laos, an estimated
 7,000 cases of contraband beer have gone missing. Suspicious
 that a flotilla of Laotian boats was smuggling in beer, Thai
 police boarded one vessel laden with 1,000 cases of
 Lowenbrau and were then arrested themselves when they
 crossed into Laos looking for assistance in catching the
 others.
     It's the latest in the beer wars fought with gladiatorial vigor
 in the area, especially in China--probably the source of the
 smuggled Lowenbrau. For crowd-pleasing color, nothing
 can compare with the fighting antics of rival Philippine
 brewers San Miguel and Asia Brewery, most recently over
 the latter's accusation that San Miguel was hoarding
 millions of Asia Brewery's bottles, a charge followed by a
 police raid and flying writs in both directions. But only
 China is big enough to offer a truly panoramic view of the
 beer battlefield.
     China is already the world's second-largest beer market,
 and it is expected to overtake the United States in volume by
 the turn of the century. The thought of getting a piece of
 that action has attracted at least a dozen foreign beer
 makers, and about 50 joint ventures are jostling in a market
 that also includes hundreds of local Chinese brewers.
     Even among the big boys, though, only a few are making any
 money at all, and most are believed to be losing their shirts.
 Some woefully underestimated distribution and marketing
 problems; others overestimated the number of Chinese
 drinkers with money to spend on premium brews. Thailand's
 Charoen Pokphand and the Dutch makers of Heineken have
 moved down market with a successful brand they call Reeb,
 which sells for the equivalent of about 34 U.S. cents a can.
 But the consensus is that only a few beers, notably Beck's,
 are earning big bucks.
     Analysts attribute Beck's success to savvy marketing and
 distribution. But being famously German doesn't hurt in a
 country that thinks of Germany as the mothership of all
 beers ever since Meisterbrewers introduced their tasty
 concoction here more than a century ago. Because beer was
 from the beginning a foreign product, and required foreign
 expertise and machinery to produce, brewers have found
 fewer doors closed to them in China and other emerging
 markets than the makers of almost any other products.
 That is one explanation for the throat-cutting, gun-toting
 atmosphere in the crowded beer world. Since production and
 distribution costs don't usually vary much, the place to beat
 rivals narrows down to sales. In a market as relatively free as
 beer's, aggressive competition is the only possible outcome. It
 is also a healthy outcome, and one that ought to reinforce
 the message that open markets deliver more choices to more
 people than any other system.
     Writing recently in the Far Eastern Economic Review,
 reporter Bruce Gilley noted that Chinese authorities have
 resisted appeals from big domestic brewers to limit joint
 venture competition because such a move could hurt
 Beijing's chances of entering the World Trade
 Organization. For a vivid demonstration of the virtue of
 leaving things alone, China has only to ponder the Mekong
 beer battle, where their well-priced bottles provoked a
 border brawl."

- -- 
Later,
Richard L Scholz
bklyn ny

rscholz at aol.com

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:15:57 -0700
From: "King, Owen A" <Owen.King at PSS.Boeing.com>
Subject: RE: Fast Fermentation Follow-up

Aaron Spurlock writes:
"My house stays at 75 degrees (any lower and I'd be broke), which
most say is too high for my ale to ferment properly, possibly
contributing
to the "tangy, salivary gland swelling" flavor I described. People gave
some wonderful suggestions, and if I have enough successes, I will
eventually get a fridge or other "cooler" for my beer."

Aaron, check out the plans for a Fermentation Chiller at 
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy/chiller/chiller.html
other build it yourself stuff at:
http://hbd.org/users/mtippin/
The chiller looks to be fairly simple and inexpensive to build.
Owen A. King  (425)266-6067
"'Smile' the man said 'things could get worse' so I smiled and sure
enough they did"


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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Hinken <jhinken at accessone.com>
Subject: Competition Reminder

The Brews Brothers Novembeerfest Homebrew Competition will be held on
Saturday November 1, at the Elysian Brewing Company, 1221 East Pike,
Seattle.   The entry fee is $5.00 per entry.  The deadline for entries is
Oct. 29 and they can be shipped to 

        Jim Hinken
        24211 4th Place West
        Bothell, WA  98021

or may be dropped off at Evergreen Brewing Supply, Bellevue, WA; Cascade
Brewing Supply, Tacoma, WA; Larry's Brewing Supply, Kent, WA; or The Home
Brewery, Everett, WA.

Interested judges please contact jhinken at accessone.com.

Visit the Brews Brothers web page at http://www.brewsbrothers.org for
Novembeerfesst information.


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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:30:49 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: p-cooking and fermentable sugars.

Additional messages have supported Charley Rich's experiences that
pressure cooking wort does NOT remove fermentable sugars, so please
disregard the previously published message suggesting that to be the
point of my experiences.  Sorry for the noise....I tried to cancel my
previous HBD submission, but it was in electronic limbo.    cheers and
thanks to Charley and others for their experience.    jim booth,
lansing,mi


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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:56:08 -0500
From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner)
Subject: re: beer - Science or art?

     From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
     Subject: beer - science or art?
     
     A brief note:
     If beer were invented today, rather than centuries ago, the scientists
     and engineers would never design a process that used up so much heat 
     and
     water, and distribute such a heavy package that is 90% water.
     Instead they'd add enzymes to barley rather than go through the
     expensive malting and mashing processes, and deliver a concentrate to
     the distribution point that just required a water addition.
     
     Aren't we fortunate?
     
     Andy.
     
     
     OTOH, we could go to the frozen food section and get a can of A-B 
     frozen beer mix right next to the Minute Maid orange juice, marguerita 
     and pina colada mixes and take it home.  To "brew" up a pitcher, just 
     add the correct amounts of soda water and vodka!  Yum!!
     
     Regards,
     
     Lou

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:57:00 -0500
From: layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
Subject: bottled brewing water

In HBD #2533, Samuel Mize offered some sensible suggestions to help
Aaron Spurlock with off-flavors in his beer. Among his suggestions:

>If you're sanitizing properly, it may be chlorinated water.  Try a
>batch with bottled (NOT distilled) water and see if that helps. 

What's the problem with distilled water?

I have been using bottled water exclusively in my brewing for quite a 
while now (several years). I'd like to offer some general suggestions
for brewing with the store-bought stuff.

Bottled water offers a source of clean, sanitary, good tasting, and
ready to use (no chlorine) brewing water. Disadvantages are cost, 
transportation, and storage/disposal of the containers.

You can obtain a free analysis sheet, if you're intrested, on any of the
bottled waters in the US simply by calling the phone number on the label.
If no phone number is shown, ask the store manager and you'll be helped.
I've done this for about a dozen different bottled waters. 

Distilled water and RO water are essentially the same thing. Either
may be used as-is for extract brewing, the malt extract will drive the
pH of the wort. Mashers will normally want to add appropriate salts to
control pH and flavor. Extract brewers may add salts to adjust flavor.
Distilled and RO water is a blank sheet to work with. I currently use
RO water, with mineral additions, for most of my brewing because I can
get it pretty cheap.

Bottled  drinking water is, (at least the ones I've investigated) RO water 
to which small amounts of mineral salts have been added to adjust flavor.
It is a good choice for extract brewing. Mineral contents are very low,
so my comments regarding mineral additions to distilled and RO water
apply here as well. I suggest you obtain the analysis sheet before 
blindly adding salts, but the ones I've looked at could be assumed to
have zero mineral content for the purpose of calculating salt additions.

Bottled spring waters vary greatly, sometimes even within the same brand
name. Store-brand spring water especially may come from many different
springs. Some are very soft, some are very hard. These waters are taken
from natural sources, sanitized, and bottled. I've found one spring
water that is a very good match with analyses I've seen for Munich water.
I like this one for use in dark beers, as I don't have to add calcium
carbonate to raise the mash pH. This particular water would be a poor
choice for pale all-grain beers. Buyer beware, as the only things bottled
spring waters have in common is that they taste good and are safe to drink.
Check the label for the source location against your analysis sheet 
before you believe the numbers.

Jim Layton (Howe, TX) 

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:31:11 -0400
From: "Sornborger, Nathan" <nsornborger at email.mc.ti.com>
Subject: RE: GFCI trip

I saw this and had to respond. I realize it is off topic but I'll be
brief.

Forrest Duddles said:
"Your GFCI is made to trip whenever it detects a flow of current to 
ground from either the hot or neutral conductor. It will also trip if 
the neutral is opened."

This is simply not the case. The GFCI continually monitors the current
in the "hot" and "common" conductors (the normal current carrying
wires). If the amount headed out to the device differs from the amount
coming back by more than 5 milliamps, the GFCI interrupts the electric
power by "tripping". It is this that saves you from getting fried in the
tub, because if power is headed out through the hot lead and back
through you, the tub, and the pipes, not the ground, an imbalance will
occur and off it goes. Of course current down the ground also would mean
an imbalance and cause it to trip. This is why in houses with old
groundless wiring systems, outlet changes must be to GFCI outlets and
not regular ones.

Nate Sornborger

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:39:38 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: esters

Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> wrote
>
>Jeff writes:
>>The off flavor (esters, etc) production
>>comes during the reproductive stage, so the practice of warm start is poor
>>practice.
<snip>
>I'm still not
>convinced that ester production occurs *only* or even *primarily* during
>reproduction.  It's not that I have references to the contrary, it's
>just that I *don't* have any supporting references other than HBD posts
>(from Tracy, primarily).  I've tried to get copies of some of the articles
>mentioned previously, but have been unsuccessful to date.
>
>Can we discuss this topic again in more detail?
>
>When and how do the esters really get produced?

As I said to Al in private email, I think I shot a little from the hip
here, relying on my memory of what I had read here and in various books,
and very likely remembering incorrectly.  I did remember reading this,
though, quite recently, and I think on HBD.  Hubert Hanghofer asked me for
documentation by private email, and I had to make the same confession to
him.  It's too bad the queue is so long right now - I was going to make the
same request Al did, but I'll second it.  So I hope we get some input from
people who really know, and not from those like me who may be repeating, or
even starting, momilies.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:24:26 -0600
From: Ronald Babcock <rbabcock at rmii.com>
Subject: Re: Insulating Sankey Kegs/Dial Thermometers

Eric Schoville asks,

>Does anyone have any great ideas for insulating Sankey kegs?

I ask about this about eight months ago and Mike Spineelli had the best
idea from all the responses I recived. He suggested using a section of  16"
id rigid fiberglass insulation. I incorporated this into my system and have
been very pleased with results. I have virtually no heat loss. If you like
you can take a look at my website at http://shell.rmi.net/~rbabcock/ and
look under "Conversion". I have a better description and illustration there. 

>I am looking for two accurate dial thermometers that can be screwed in to
a pipe thread fitting.

I purchased one for my sankey from Stainless in Seattle. You can look at it
on their website at http://www.beeronline.com. The thermometer they show
comes with a no-weld kit but they will sell it without the mounting kit. It
is silk screened with Acid Rest, Protein Rest, Starch Conversion and Mash
Out Temperatures, as well as DEG F and C. My local homebrew shop just
started stocking a sturdy thermometer for kegs without the silkscreening.
You can reach them at 303-789-3676 or at their website
http://www.beerathome.com/. Both thermometers have 1/2" NPT threads.

Standard disclaimers apply, both have been very helpful in my quest for a
better brewing system.


Ronald Babcock - rbabcock at rmii.com - Denver, CO
Home of the Backyard Brewery at http://shell.rmi.net/~rbabcock/

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:43:17 -0700
From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: New Extract

Hi All:

Yet another reason for extract brewers to put off going all-grain: 
Alexanders' now makes a Munich Malt Extract!!!  (A couple of other
companies do too, but Alexanders may have a wider distribution -- no
shipping costs).

I haven't used it yet, but I did actually see a bag of it in a HB shop about
15 miles from the plant.  I'll post with some data once I have some, unless
someone beats me to it.

Randy Erickson
Modesto, California
randye at mid.org

Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers
c/o Barley & Wine, Ceres, CA
www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/1970/


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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:07:39 -0400
From: "Tkach, Christopher" <tkach at ctron.com>
Subject: Sweetening Up Fruit Beer/Crazy Lambic Idea

Hi All-

Well, as I promised I would let you all know how my attempts went at
trying
to sweeten up the Blueberry Ale that came out just a tad sour.

After reading the advice that others sent me, and talking w/ the local
guru at the homebrew shop, I decided to try adding some malto-dextrin
in with the priming sugar for bottling.  I cut back on the regular
amount
of priming sugar that I would have normally used (3/4 cup cut down to
1/2 -> 2/3 cup) and added approx. 4 oz of Malto-Dextrin.  Boiled both
the malto-dextrin and priming sugar in 1 1/2 pints of water before
adding
it to the bottling bucket.

I finally tasted it last night (its been in the bottle for a little
longer than 3 weeks)
and the carbonation is fine (whew!), but the sourness still remains.
Not as
pronounced as it was before bottling.  I took a sample to the homebrew
shop,
and John (the owner) said it was probably infected (as I had suspected),
but
it wasn't a bad infection.  He seemed to think that it tasted a bit like
a Lambic.
So I guess its not all that bad!!

Anyway, that got me thinking, why not try and culture the yeast from a
bottle
of the Blueberry Ale and try brewing a Lambic w/ it.  What do think?  Am
I
asking for a lot of trouble w/ this?  Is it even worth it?  Would
whatever created
the sourness (wild yeast?) still be alive (the Blueberry Ale is around
7% alcohol
by weight, yeah it knocks you on your ass!).

 - Chris
Newmarket, NH

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:57:12 -0500
From: "Wills, Frederick J (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
Subject: RE:Wort Storage?

Randy Kinsman <kinsman at glinx.com> writes:

Subject: Wort Storage?

<<I have posted this question on r.c.b. with no response so I thought
I'd 
try the next level.>>

Hmmm.  Didn't realize there were levels...  <g>


 <<I have an opportunity to brew on a semi-pro basis at a local home
brew 
shop.  The owner has given me a chance to sell wort through his shop on 
a regular basis.  I can set up my system in house and simply brew there 
as needed.  He wants me to be able to leave fresh wort there for storage

until it is sold.  Basically, he wants wort in stock with me producing 
it as needed. >>

Pardon me for asking, but who would want to by fully prepared wort?  At
least with a concentrated wort (aka hopped extract) there is the
appearance of the brewer having an effect on the resulting beer.  Plus
just lugging 6 gallons of prepared wort home would be a PITA IMHO.

  
<<    My real question is, how can I store wort after is has been boiled
and 
chilled?  Can I keep the product just above the freezing point? If so, 
for how long?  I really want to stay away from chemical preservatives 
because I like the fact that I can make "Clean" beer and I don't want to

sell a product which I wouldn't want to make for myself.>>

Sorry to be a wise *ss, but I believe the best way to store it is in 12
oz. bottles (preferably brown) after a 2 week period of exposure to
brewer's yeast.  ;-)

Cheers,
Fred

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:57:08 -0500
From: "Wills, Frederick J (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
Subject: RE: Overnight Mashing Question

"Bruce Gill" <b2g at classic.msn.com> writes:
Subject: Overnight Mashing Question

<<For various time-constraint reasons, I am looking to try overnight
mashing.  I 
do full mashes in either a 5 or 10 gallon Gott (depending on grain 
bill/starting gravity desired).  Several people have told me of good
results 
with bringing the mash up to saccharification temperatures, going to
bed, then 
getting up in the morning ready to heat and sparge.>>

How about a "Whole Batch Decoction" as an idea?  After your mash is
fully converted, why not bring the whole mash up to a brief boil before
retiring for the night.  The potential advantages might be:

 Denaturing of those pesky beta 'zymes that would otherwise thin out
your brew
 Certain death of the (surely present) bacteria that might cause your
mash to sour overnight
 And, maybe even a bit of maillard reaction providing a bit of that
classically malty profile.  

I've never actually done this, mind you.  It's just something that came
to mind n response to your question.  Anyone see a major flaw in this
plan (other than the time it takes)?

Regards,
Fred Wills

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:57:15 -0500
From: "Wills, Frederick J (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
Subject: RE: IS ANY ? A BAD ONE?

"SCOTT DUBENDRIS....PHOTO TECH....375/X6039" <SDUBENDR at spf.nsc.com>
writes:

Subject: IS ANY ? A BAD ONE?

<<HELLO,
      BEING EXTREMELY NEW TO HOMEBREWING I HAVE A QUESTION. I HAVE SO
FAR MADE
4 BATCHES OF INCREDIBLY DELICIOUS BEVERAGE. I HAVE A QUESTION..EVERYTIME
I DRINK
SOME OF MY BEER I HAVE EXTREME FLATUATION..IS THIS NORMAL? IS MY BEER
NOT DONE
FERMENTING OR SOMETHING??>>

First off, Scotty, find the Caps Lock key on your 'puter and turn it
off.  You are gauranteed to make better beer when you type in the proper
case!  <g>

WRT flatulence, it is relatively common for people not used to consuming
live yeast to have this side effect.  After a while, your body seems to
become accustomed to it (not sure why) and the gassiness will subside
some.  So you see, you must practice! ;-) Also, try leaving as much
yeast behind when you decant your beer and you may have less of the
effect.

One interesting side note (that I constantly remind my wife of) is that
the gas produced after drinking those yeasty homebrews seems to be
unique in that it has little or no odor!  At least that's what my
experience has been. YMMV, etc.

Cheers,
Fred


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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:42:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: djones at iex.com (Doug Jones)
Subject: Re: Trashcan Chiller

On  Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:23:38 Aaron Spurlock wrote:

> Another idea some suggested was to put my carboy in a large plastic
> garbage can and fill it with water. That way, I can control the
> temperature of the surrounding water with ice if need be, maintaining a
> constant 65 degrees.  This sounds really appealing, because it is 
> economical, and a large volume of water shouldn't change temperature too 
> quickly.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with this method or any thoughts on its
> viability? Thanks for keeping me brewing, and hopefully I'll meet with
> success after success soon!
> 
I used this technique to brew in the winter a couple of years of ago. Place
a couple of bricks at the bottom to keep the fermenter of the floor. Use
small jugs, frozen, to control temp. In the winter I use an aquarium 
heater to control the temp. Works very well. I also know folks who use the
ice-in-a-jug and their bathtubs.

Good luck,
Doug
- -- 
- -------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of      |   Douglas R. Jones
 both Time and Space'    |   IEX Corporation
       Led Zeppelin      |   (972)301-1307
                         |   djones at iex.com
- -------------------------------------------------

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:35:09 -0500
From: Michael Fay <faymi at earlham.edu>
Subject: overpriming

A friend of mine bottled his third batch the other day.  Only thing is he
used a cup and a half of corn syrup to prime instead of the typical 3/4
cup.  So the question is will he just have really fizzy beer or potential
grenades.  It was some sort of kit with the package of dry yeast on the top
of the can.  So I can't offer much info there.  Any speculations?

Michael Fay	
Richmond, IN

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:01:55 -0700
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Cleaning Stainless Steel

Scott asked how to clean his stainless steal (sic) pot.

No harsh chemicals are required. No difficult cleaning or disposal is
required.
Go to the grocery store and buy a can of Revereware Copper (and
stainless) Cleaner.
It's in the Cleanser section.  Put a little on a sponge or Scotchbrite
pad and clean away anything.
A competitive product is Kleen King Stainless Cleaner.  Simply rinse
with water afterwards.

There is an article I wrote for Zymurgy with Jim Liddil and another I
wrote for BT that discuss cleaning of metals on my web page at
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/

John Palmer
'net metallurgist
jjpalmer at realbeer.com


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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:06:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Landman106 at aol.com
Subject: Enameled Steel Pots

Are there any paint chemists out there who can give me some advice on a
touchup paint to use for an enameled steel pot that has a few chips out of
it?  I'd like to preserve the coating but don't want something that will
contaminate the beer.  I've been thinking of using some appliance paint since
it seems fairly durable.

Vern

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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 16:39:00 PDT
From: "Welsch, John" <A069067 at MDCPO102.HB.MDC.COM>
Subject: Insulating Sankey Kegs/Dial Thermometers


Eric asked about a source for quality thermometers.  Try Omega Engineering. 
 All first rate quality and any size dial, probe length, or thread you might 
need.  They also carry stainless thermowells.  You can find them at: 
www.omega.com
No affiliation...yada, yada, yada....

John Welsch
Strand Brewers
Redondo Beach CA

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---