---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brew Sights in Warner Robins GA????? (NA Campiglia)
  Hops in the wild ? (Keith Zimmerman)
  ElecticBin Water Heater? ("C&S Peterson")
  Gas -- Natural vs. Propane (Danny Breidenbach)
  RE. Wine Yeast (Mike Allred)
  Extract Brewing (Mark_Snyder)
  alt, Atlanta vs. Dusseldorf ("Ted Hull")
  Water/Water (A. J. deLange)
  Whitelabs yeast (Terry White)
  Re: Steinbier (Jeff Renner)
  Extract Good? (Bill Giffin)
  Re:  Reusing yeast / Steinbier (George De Piro)
  Sparge rate theory (David C. Harsh)
  Fwd: Ovi's World of the Bizarre #67 Oct. 14, 1997 (OCaball299)
  RE: A sparkletts cooler idea (Matt Gadow)
  PALE ALES announces AHA/BJCP Competition (Small Change)
  Great Canadian Beer Festival ("Mark Bridges")
  Re: Lime as water treatment ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  Fridge survey ("Forrest Duddles")
  Long boil (Al Korzonas)
  Re: spongy gunk in fermenter ("Jesse Benbow")
  Spices (RPSGT)
  Coffee Stout (Steven Ensley)
  Breweries/Brewpubs in N.E. Penn (Gordon & Cindy Camp)
  Re: whitelabs (Chris White)
  steinbier again ("Bryan L. Gros")
  How do you guys clean your 3 tier systems? (Darren Scourfield)
  Infection (Kevin Peters)
  Subject: Keg Burners (Steve Scott)
  lack of hot break ("Alan McKay")


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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:37:20 -0500
From: NA Campiglia <spitdrvr at camalott.com>
Subject: Brew Sights in Warner Robins GA?????

I have to go to Warner Robins Georgia next week.  Does anyone know of any
Brew Pubs,  Draft Houses, or brew supply places in that area?

Thanks 
Nick
spitdrvr at camalott.com
http://camalott.com/~spitdrvr

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:53:15 -0700
From: Keith Zimmerman <keithzim at computron.net>
Subject: Hops in the wild ?

This September I was back packing in Colorado. Along the trail  I was
enjoying eating some raspberries when I noticed a plant which had some
cones which looked like hops.  I am just curious, are hops growing like
this normal or was this an unusual occurrence?


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 11:10:32 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at classic.msn.com>
Subject: ElecticBin Water Heater?

HBDers -

Thanks to all that responded to my post on instant-on water heaters (all 
recommeded against using one for brewing purposes -- capacity too small).

So I'm now looking at either buying a 240V "ElectriBin" heating bucket, or 
making my own.  The only concern I have with the homemade version is 
(following Ken Schwartz's instructions) that I should provide some sort of 
GFCI protection (FWIW, I would go the 240 breaker route, since I have no other 
electrical needs in my brewery).  Given the cost of the GFCI, its a toss up 
between the homemade version and the commercial ElectriBin.

So a few questions to help me choose a course of action:

I assume the ElectriBim is UL listed and therefore operates "safely" w/o GFCI. 
 But what is the draw/power on this device?  Anyone have experience with this 
product (the 240V version, that is)?  How fast does it heat 5 Ga of water to 
190?

I know I could follow Ken's instructions and implement the dual 120 GFCI 
solution, but that still takes about 40 minutes to get the water heated up; my 
goal is 20 minutes.

Thanks,

Chas Peterson 
Laytonsville, Md.


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:49:14 -0400
From: Danny Breidenbach <dbreidenbach at nctm.org>
Subject: Gas -- Natural vs. Propane

First off, I know what comes out of my LP tank, but what do you call
"natural gas"? (and don't say "a fart" -- I mean the stuff you cook
with!)

I know this next question has been answered before, but I always get
confused.  I've got my cajun cooker -- or some compatible propane
cooking device.  If I want to have a natural gas line dropped down into
my basement to use this puppy, what conversions are in order?  Please
use small, common words, for when it comes to topics such as this, I
feel much like Winnie ther Pooh (a Bear of Little Brain).  If I need to
go to the hardware store and ask a helpful person to put all the parts
in a basket for me -- let me know.  I can do that!  Also -- does the
cost of converting a (paid for) LP cooker end up being more than buying
a natural gas cooker?  Where does one find natural gas cookers of this
type.

Thanks ever so much.
- --Danny
beer beer beer (I had to add that no one would think this question was
supposed to be in rec.food.barbecue.cookers or somthing :-)

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:58:01 -0600
From: Mike Allred <mballred at xmission.com>
Subject: RE. Wine Yeast

John Bell asked about using wine yeast for a normal gravity beer.  I brewed
a batch of brown ale in september that I ended up using wine yeast in after
a stuck fermentation.  It's been carbonating for about 6 days now and I just
popped the cap on my first bottle.  It tastes like a normal neutral beer,
but has a definate sulfur smell to it that is very distracting.  I poured
the majority of the bottle down the sink.  Will this mellow with age?  I
normally produce very good beer and I don't think that the flaws in this
beer are do to anything other then the poor airation I started with and then
the wine yeast.  


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:25:48 -0500
From: Mark_Snyder at wastemanagement.com
Subject: Extract Brewing




Mark Snyder
10/23/97 08:25 AM
Greetings all,

Many thanks to Al Korzonas for his defense of extract brewers.  I have been
brewing for about 9 months now, brew extract and partial mash beers and
have made some very good brews in my opinion and that of my friends.  Not
competition winners, mind you, but I'll get there eventually.  I have
always had this nagging thought in the back of my mind, however, that I
would eventually *have* to go to all-grain if I wanted to consistently brew
beers of award winning quality.  Probably the result of impressions
received from posts in the HBD, or Charlie P's book where I subconsciously
equate "advanced" with "better".  All in all, you have to admit that there
is a lot of "peer pressure" out there regarding the different levels of
brewing.

Wonders of wonders, now I can continue to refine my present extract
technique, make better beers as a result, and not feel inferior when
talking to other brewers who only brew all-grain.  Not that I may not move
in that direction at some time in the future.

And so that the collective doesn't misinterpret my comments, *all*  of the
topics discussed in the Digest are of interest, and provide food for
thought to aid brewers of all levels improve the quality of their beer.  I
know my partial mash procedures have benefited from information received
from experienced extract and all-grain brewers alike.

Thanks again "Korz", from all of us extract brewers.  And remember, as a
friend and the assistant brewer at my favorite brewpub here in Atlanta once
said "We're all homebrewers.  Some of us just do it at different levels."

Mark Snyder



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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 3:16:20 EDT
From: "Ted Hull" <THull at brwncald.com>
Subject: alt, Atlanta vs. Dusseldorf

Note: I posted the question about alt to the atl-beer mailing 
list (atl-beer at beerinfo.com) and got this response. --Ted

At 03:37 10/22/97 EDT, "Ted Hull" <THull at brwncald.com> 
forwarded:
>Has anyone out in HBDland had the dual experience of tasting 
>Altbier at its home in Dusseldorf and of tasting the Altbier at 
>the Atlanta Beergarten? I have visited the Beergarten several 
>times and am struck by the similarity of their alt to my own 
>homebrewed version; sadly, I have not been able to visit 
>Dusseldorf. My homebrewed alt is based entirely on book 
>learnin', and I could use the benefit of a little real-world  
>experience. 

I'm not currently subbed to HBD, but I was fortunate enough to 
go to Dusseldorf about 3 years ago and enjoy the fabulous Alt at 
Zum Uerige, which is famous even in Dusseldorf for its Alt.

The Atlanta Beer Garden version is much less hoppy. Alt in 
Dusseldorf is distinctly hoppy and usually has a pretty good 
malt backup as well. ABG's seems to start along the right lines, 
but just needs more ooomph to compare.

Ted, I'd be grateful if you'd forward this to HBD as 
well...thanks.

Cheers!

John [Lock, jlock at mindspring.com]

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:22:37 -0500
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Water/Water

 Adam Holmes  asked about water formulation recipies. I was going to direct
him to the Techincal Library at the Brewery
(http://realbeer.com/brewery/index.html) but found upon going there that
the link to the water synthesis stuff is defective somehow. Maybe it's
temporary so go there anyway and give it a try. If no go e-mail me. I've
redone all the profiles (plus the new Belgian ones Dave posted a while
back) with the advantage of the perspective of the couple of years which
have passed since I did these original ones. One of the features of the new
set is that the only salts used are calcium carbonate (chalk), sodium
chloride, sodium bicarbonate, calcium sulfate (gypsum), calcium chloride
and magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts). All of these are readily available in
food grade so you don't have to consider the question as to whether ACS
grade is pure enough to be eaten. I wouldn't venture an opinion on that in
public even if someone promised to pay all my legal fees. Another feature
is that all pH adjustment is done with carbonic acid (i.e. CO2 dissolved in
water) so there's no fooling with hydrochloric and/or sulfuric acids.

Deionized water isn't really too expensive. Most of us who use "DI" water
actually use RO which while it isn't suitable for analysis is, if the
incoming water is only moderately hard, "pure" enough to be considered ion
free for brewing purposes. Small ion exchangers (cation AND anion) can be
operated for the volumes of water required for brewing without being
prohibitively expensive if we stick to our permitted 200 gal/yr.

Having said all that we note that for extract brewing water is really not
much of an issue. The guy that makes the extract is the one who has to
worry about whether the calcium is sufficient to overcome the alkalinity.
All the extract brewer really needs to do is fiddle with the sulfate level
to get the hops quality he wants and perhaps tweak the chloride to a
pleasing level of roundness. The extract should be acidic enough that the
wort made from it goes to a pH near 5. Stay away from carbonates and
bicarbonates and pH shouldn't be an issue though it never hurts to "dip a
strip".

* * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * *

Trent Neutgens asked about his water:

Total Hardness 29 gpg                    Flouride 1mg/l
Total Iron       .15 mg/l                    Manganese  .03 mg/l
Chloride        15.0 mg/l                    Silica        Less Than 2.0
mg/l
Nitrate            less than 1.0 mg/l       Sodium    31.5 mg/l
Magnesium    54.0 mg/l                    Calcium    108.0 mg/l
Alkalinity        302.0 mg/l as CaC03
Total Dissolved Solids        511 mg/l
pH                    7.9
Silicon            Less than 1 mg/l

That's pretty hefty stuff! You've got calcium magnesium and alkalinity
levels about like Burton but the sulfate level is only about a quarter of
Burton's. The main problem with this water is that the iron is high enough
that you are going to taste it. Iron can be disposed of by aerating the
water to turn the iron into an insoluble form and then filtering it through
sand. I've actually never done this but it's written about widely and is
theoretically sound. Otherwise you will have to dispose of the iron with an
iron removal unit which I understand basically aerates and filters but I've
never seen one. Water like this is going to plug up your water heater and
plumbing fairly quickly so I'd expect that you have, or will have, a water
softener installed. These prevent all the nasty problems from water this
hard but ruin the water for brewing because they strip out all the
magnesium and calcium.

Untreated, the water is suitable only for the brewing of beers with a fair
proportion of high kilned malt. Northern English ales and perhaps dark
German lagers come to mind though the former might  want some additional
sulfate. I personally wouldn't add any but for authenticity it needs to be
augmented.

Many other styles, particularly anything light will be a problem unless the
water is softened. You should be able to remove a lot of the alkalinity
just by boiling the water and decanting off the precipitate.

A. J. deLange
 - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.

- --> --> --> To reply remove "nosp" from address. <-- <--



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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:40:32 -0400
From: terry at brewfellows.com (Terry White)
Subject: Whitelabs yeast

Hi all,

Just wanted to add a quick comment on Whitelabs pitchable yeast.  I have
just started carrying ths yeast in my shop and I think it is great.  I
have used it 4 times and have experienced lag times of 6 - 8 hours with
good strong fermentation.I particularly like this yeast because it
allows me to brew at the spur of the moment.

To the man calling this yeast a "gyp" I suggest he look at the date on
the tube the yeast came in and see how fresh it was, it could be that
his retailer is selling old yeast.  

Thanks
Terry (yes, my last name is White but I am no relation.)

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:46:20 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Steinbier

In HBD 2538, "David R. Burley" <<Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> wrote:


>As I recall, Steinbier is made by pouring wort

>OVER hot rocks and *not* by putting hot rocks

>INTO the wort, nicht wahr??


Nope.  According to Jackson's "New World Guide" to beer p. 58, "Stones
 ... are immersed in the kettle."  And in his "Beer Companion," p. 239
"A crane fitted with claws then hoists the stones through a hatch into
the brewhousse and lowers them into a conventional copper kettle... As
the stone is lowered in, the brew foams and rages."


>What's the difference?? =


HSA?


<<snip>

>Also, I don't remember anything about

> the Germans putting the rocks in the refrigerator

> and then adding them to the secondary. =


No, then then transfer them to a lagering tank of a previous brew. 
"When the stones cool, they are left coated with caramelized malt.  The
stones are then placed in the lagering vessels, so that the caramel
primes the maturing brew." (ibid.).  But since homebrewers don't
usually brew the same style serially, they need to resort to this
method.


> The process of pouring should form the caramel

> while the rocks are hot and then the later wort

> should dissolve it from the cooler rocks,

> leaving the rocks clean.


"By the time the stones are returned to the brewery yard, they resemble
large pieces of coal." (ibid.).


Jeff



 -=-=-=-=-

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:50:53 -0500
From: Bill Giffin <billgiffin at maine.com>
Subject: Extract Good?

Top of the morning to ye all,

>>Al K said:
If a homebrewer began as an all-grain brewer and then moved to extract after
two years, I would be willing to bet that the quality would continue to
improve with experience.  I would also be willing to bet that those early
all-grain batches would not be competition contenders whereas someone who
has been brewing several years and brewed an extract batch (taking it
seriously, not a throwaway batch or "something for my cousins who don't
like good beer"), could win in just about any category.<<

I agree with Al that you can make good beer with extract, but with the
available base malts I honestly believe that better beer is made all grain.
 Plus look at the amount of satisfaction you get from doing it youself.
Extract is a lazy way to make a batch of beer.  If you really enjoy the
hobby then go for it make the best beer you can the same way the "Big Guys"
do.

Bill


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:18:44 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Re:  Reusing yeast / Steinbier

     Hi all,
     
     Jens asks about reusing yeast, and describes problems encountered in 
     doing so.
     
     Yeast can be reused, but there are some "rules" that need to be 
     followed.  First, your sanitation practices must be impeccable.  Each 
     time you repitch, any contaminating microbes that are in your slurry 
     will also get a chance to grow.  By the 3rd repitching you can be in 
     very noticeable trouble.  Even with great sanitation, the culture will 
     eventually become contaminated.  You can't repitch forever.
     
     Another factor to remember is that the yeast themselves will mutate 
     over time.  If you repitch only the yeast you collect from your 
     secondary, you will be selecting for less flocculant yeast.  A similar 
     effect will occur if you harvest the yeast from the bottom of your 
     primary before most of the yeast has settled; you'll be selecting the 
     most flocculent.
     
     Both of these scenarios can dramatically change the character of your 
     beer (attenuation differences are likely).  Yeast mutations can lead 
     to all sorts of other off-flavors/aromas and fermentation problems.
     
     Some brewers reuse a yeast slurry for no more than 5 batches before 
     reculturing.  I doubt that there's any magic about the number "5," but 
     it has probably been realized that consistent quality can be 
     maintained that way.
     ---------------------------
     Dave B. is a bit confused about Steinbier production.  The rocks most 
     definitely ARE immersed in the wort and then removed and stored for 
     use in the secondary tank (see Michael Jackson's books, a Zymurgy 
     article from '92, and the most recent Brewing Techniques).
     
     In the old days, liquids could be boiled in wooden vessels by adding 
     hot rocks to them.  Just pouring the liquid over hot rocks would not 
     achieve this.
     
     In beer making, pouring the wort over hot rocks would hopelessly 
     oxidize it.  I doubt if even the ancients enjoyed the taste of 
     cardboard ale!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:14:37 -0400
From: David.Harsh at UC.Edu (David C. Harsh)
Subject: Sparge rate theory

Al and Lou have written about sparge time:

>Lou writes:
> ...Diffusion is the rate limiting factor.  The amount and distribution
> of surface area  at the grain/strainer interface will surely affect
> the concentration gradients in the liquid in the lauter tun...

Al wrote:
>...If you must sparge faster, then yes, as Lou says, a Phil's Phalse
> Bottom *theoretically* would give you better yield.  Note we haven't
> even started talking about grain bed depth or tun geometry... yikes!

Lou is partially correct in that diffusion is important; Al is dead on
because geometry of the system is incredibly important for this kind of
modelling.  {Warning:  geek mode entered.  This is core chemical
engineering and I use this as an example in my Mass Transfer lectures every
year - student interest is invariably heightened if you can relate it to
alcohol}

Because the sugar extraction is due to bulk motion of the sparge water, we
are actually dealing with a convective process; the rate will be equal to
the product of a mass tranfer coefficient and the concentration difference
between the bulk fluid and the concentration in the particle surface liquid
film.  The coefficient is a complex function of particle shape, solute
diffusivity and all fluid properties (density, viscosity) along with liquid
velocity.  The irregular particles of grain will definitely complicate
things.  I'll also speculate that there is an adsorption equilibrium for
the sugars between the liquid and surface concentrations to help complicate
things.

Despite the fact that I can write the model, I don't really care to solve
it. Even if I did, models like this invariably end up with a 50% margin of
error in predicted performance because of all the factors you have to
estimate.  Instead, looking in the archives from 1994, sparge rate was
discussed by Darryl Richman as follows:  quote from HBD #1506, 8/17/94

*   The rate recommended was approximately 1 gallon / (6
*   minute * square foot) to start, speeding up to 1/4 as the wort thins
*   out.  (I'm quoting from memory, always a dangerous thing.)  These
*   figures are quoted from volume 2 of Narziss' "Die Technologie der
*   Bierbereitung".

Knowing that commercial brewers generally sparge through a shallower grain
bed than homebrewers, this is probably an upper limit to sparge rate; in
addition, I believe that this is based on open area of your false bottom,
but that isn't really clear from the archives.

So, ultimately, I agree that a Phalse Bottom SHOULD work better, but there
are too many variables in homebrewing to possibly make a definitive
statement on unsteady state extraction from a fixed bed.  {geek mode off}

Dave

P.S.  Last summer I gave a counterflow wort chiller design problem on a
heat transfer exam.  {oops, geek mode slipped back on again}

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
&                  Dave Harsh                    &
&   Bloatarian Brewing League; Cincinnati, OH    &
&  Red Green uses duct tape - I prefer Parafilm  &
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
                     O-



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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:20:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: OCaball299 at aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Ovi's World of the Bizarre #67 Oct. 14, 1997

Charles Maraura of New Zealand was awarded a small amount of 
 money after he proved that Zimbabwe's National Breweries was 
 responsible for the used female contraceptive device found in his 
 beer.

Be careful out there!!!

Omar Caballero

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:10:55 -0700
From: Matt Gadow <mgadow at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: A sparkletts cooler idea

Did anyone pick up the post a couple weeks ago regarding the use of a
the compressor in a sparkletts cooler to substitute for the use of ice
in a (son of) fermentation chiller??
This sounds like a great idea, and I would like to hear if anyone has
tried this??

Ken Shwartz - Have you seen any plans on upgrading the chiller from ice
to compressor power??

I have a beer fridge, but It gets kind of full, and tends to be set at
40-50, for serving, and/or lagering.  I would like to be able to create
a "celler" in my garage, which would stay 55-65 deg., to keep the extra
bottles in good condition, and ferment out ales.  I have made a ferm.
chiller, which works well, but is too small, and requires frequent ice
changes.  My idea was to insulate a corner of the garage with similar
material, and put boxes of bottles, and a fermenter (or two) in this
area with some type of A/C or commpressor.  I saw a post on the use of
the sparkletts cooler, but don't have one now.

I'm somewhat gadget impaired, but would like to hear about any plans
anyone has put together (I have friends!)

Thanks,

Matt Gadow


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:28:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Small Change <schd at pluto.njcc.com>
Subject: PALE ALES announces AHA/BJCP Competition

Contact:  Joe Bair 
(609) 252-1800, schd at pluto.njcc.com
or Bruce Hammell
(609) 393-2946, oudbruin at aol.com

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

ATTENTION ALL HOMEBREWERS

PALE ALES announces AHA/BJCP Competition 

PRINCETON, New Jersey. -- October 23, 1997 - At last year's PALE ALES
(Princeton And Local Environs Ale and Lager Enjoyment Society) Homebrew
contest we decided that we were going to have a AHA/BJCP sanctioned
competition.  We also decided th at we were going to do it right!  The
first accomplishment was making the club a not-for-profit status, which
was accomplished in February.  A name was chosen "Le Premier Spectacle
D'Houblon du Monde" - (The Hoppiest Show on Earth).  Judging will be
overseen by AHA/BJCP (American Homebrewers Association/Brewers Judge
Certification Program. 

  Triumph Brewing Co. has offered us their place for the awards, for the
best of show judging, and "The Bitterest Beer Face Contest."  The poster
for the competition is currently on display in the breezeway at Triumph
Brewing Co. 

  Entries are due on Dec. 4. The competition will take place on December
7. The award ceremony will be on Dec. 8 at Triumph.  This means that you
roughly have 5 1/2 weeks to make your beers if you have not done so yet. 
Entry fees are $5 each for the first two entries, and $2.50 for each
subsequent entry.  Please send all entries to Princeton Homebrew, 82
Nassau St. #20, Princeton, NJ 08542, and respond via e-mail to
schd at pluto.njcc.com or oudbruin at aol.com of your intentions. 

  Our web page is located at www.angelfire.com/biz/paleales, and to get
the latest information you can subscribe to our PALES TALES e-mailings by
sending mail to schd at pluto.njcc.com.
###

(C)1997 PALE ALES. All Rights Reserved.




















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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:31:15 -0700
From: "Mark Bridges" <mbridges at coastnet.com>
Subject: Great Canadian Beer Festival

Fellow Subscribers:

It's that time of year again.  On behalf of CAMRA Victoria, consider =
this your invitation to join us in Victoria, BC  November 14 & 15 for =
The Great Canadian Beer Festival.=20

 Held at the Victoria Conference Centre, the festival (profiled in the =
Jan/Feb 1997 issue of Brewing Techniques) is a showcase of  natural ales =
and lagers.  This year, we are encouraging more and more breweries to =
bring along cask-conditioned versions of their product to demonstrate =
their skills. At this point about 31 breweries are confirmed exhibitors. =
 Related exhibits will include  AOB/AHA, Gambrinus Malting, our friends =
at HopUnion USA, and for the first time Wyeast Labs among others.

Continuous live music will set the mood, and yes, the Morris Dancers =
will be back as well.  Food services are provided this year by the =
adjoining Empress Hotel.

And, as always, profits generated by the Festival will be donated to =
several worthy causes.

If you can't join us at the Festival, do visit our website at =
http://www.pacificcoast.net/~patkinson/GCBF.htm for a look at Western =
Canada's premier beer event.  Questions?  Let me know at =
mbridges at coastnet.com and I'll do my best to help you out.

Cheers and Good Brewing,

Mark Bridges
President, CAMRA Victoria




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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:02:17 +0200
From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Re: Lime as water treatment

A.J. deLange writes in HBD#2537 about the use of lime in treatment of 
brewing water. I answered the original question by Grant W. Knechtel 
via private email but thought I should re-edit and forward it to the 
collective, because I was a bit amazed to read, that the process is 
not very common among homebrewers.

As has been noted by A.J. deLange, slaked lime removes 
hydrogencarbonates:

Ca(OH)2 + Ca(HCO3)2 -> 2CaCO3 (precipitate) + 2H2O

The process works well with Ca based temporary hardness but doesn't 
remove MgCO3 because of its solubility. MgCO3 requires additional 
Ca(OH)2 to precipitate: MgCO3 + Ca(OH)2 -> CaCO3 + Mg(OH)2

The method is widespread among Austrian / Bavarian brewers 
(geology is based on limestone, water high in temporary hardness).
It's allowed according to Bavarian Reinheitsgebot and even according
to the very rigorous bioland brewing guidlines (...those green 
clean bio beers).

 ...Now let's try a simplified approach:

1) Set up a water treatment cask that holds the whole volume of 
brewing water (mashing, sparging).

2) Fill in half the water, add all Ca(OH)2 necessary for the *whole
volume*. Thus some of the Mg will precipitate, too.

Calculation of the necessary amount Ca(OH)2:

grams / Litre = Alkalinity (ppm CaCO3) x 0,74 / 1000
grams / Litre = Alkalinity (mMol/L) x 74 / 1000

grams / US gallon = (g/L) x 3,785

If you have to use CaO (burnt lime), multiply the grams Ca(OH)2 by 
0.757 to get the grams CaO, that have to be slaked with water prior 
to adding (be careful, much heat may develop, both CaO and Hydroxide 
are caustic).

3) If needed, add water salts to adjust water chemistry.

4) Gradually rise the volume by adding more water. Keep rising the
lime by stirring every 10 minutes or so to aid the reaction and help
convert the initially very fine precipitate to a coarser one.

5) *IMPORTANT: Don't rely on the calculated amount. Keep an eye 
on the pH. If it's <8 you're done, otherwise add more water!!!*

6) Remove the stirring paddle and let the precipitate settle out for
at least 12 hours. So the whole work is done on the day before
brewing.

7) Rack off the water into your kettle....
Low turbidity is allowed, but you should take care to leave the 
sediment behind.

I'm water chemist and could make more efforts, but use this primitive 
approach in my brewing for years and am very pleased with the 
results. I'm able to produce Pilseners with my tapwater (alkalinity 
300ppm CaCO3), adjusting residual Kolbach alkalinity to (*measured*) 
negative values.

Notes:

pH-Control (5) is the key factor for this simplification! It's like a 
titration of slaked lime with tap-water's HCO3. The drop in pH is 
significant, so pH test sticks can be used (I use them at home). I 
recommend however, to add 5-10 vol% more tapwater after reaching 
pH<8.

After step (2) Mg(OH)2 will precipitate, but gradually re-carbonate 
and dissolve when you rise the volume and lower pH. So the split 
treatment as described by A.J. deLange should be used, if water 
contains more than 20 mg Mg/L. After racking off into the secondary 
(...water treatment cask!) proceed from (3).

Hope this helps somebody!

CHEERS &
sehr zum Wohle!
Hubert in Salzburg, AUSTRIA
http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:38:34 +0000
From: "Forrest Duddles" <fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu>
Subject: Fridge survey

Ok folks,

 The survey responses have stopped coming in and I have compiled the 
data. Here are the results...

 The most common brewing refrigerator configuration is the 
freezer-on-top upright (44%), slightly edging out chest freezers 
(39%). Dorm/apartment refrigerators came in next (12%), and finally 
side-by-side (5%).

 Two of the dorm fridges were built into cold boxes. 

 50%  responded that they vary their temperatures between 35 - 
55 degF. 28%  vary their temperatures between 40 - 50 degF. 11% vary 
their temperatures between 30 - 70 degF. Remaining responses were 
fixed temperatures ranging from the 30's to the mid 50's.

 83% use an external controller of some sort. The Johnson A19 is by 
far the most popular at 40%, followed by the Hunter Airstat (22%), 
homebuilt (11%), and no name specified (11%). The remainder were 
similar HVAC or misc. laboratory/process controllers.

 The median age is 14.25 years (moldy oldies - literally!)

 Most of those who responded reported having no problems. Those who 
did report problems usually had trouble with mold. Three people 
reported chest freezer death (compressor failure or refrigerant 
leak). One claimed to be on his third used chest freezer, each 
lasting about 30 months. A couple of people reported temperature 
problems - either unable to get the temperature high or low enough.

 Interestingly, I was unable to reach any conlusion from this data as 
to whether operating a refrigerator or freezer above its intended 
temperature caused premature compressor problems - even when run in 
high ambient temperatures. I suspect, however, that the average age 
of these fridges may play a role in this. Most older refrigerators 
were substantially overbuilt. That has been changing in recent years 
as the manufacturers have been forced to increase the efficiency 
their products. A new refrigerator can save $100 or more in energy 
costs per year over a similar model just 10 years old. 

 The energy efficiency comes at a price though. Newer compressors are 
physically smaller, turn faster and run longer than the older ones 
they replaced. Condensers and evaporators are smaller and line 
lengths are reduced where possible to reduce refrigerant charge size 
and material costs.

 I use a new chest freezer at 42 degF and will report if I have any 
problems. I'd be interested to hear from any of you running newer 
models if you have any troubles.

 Thanks to all of you who have responded. It has been fun!

  
Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:07:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Long boil

Drew writes:
>I just got The Brewmaster's Bible out of the library - it's very new =
>(1997), but really focuses on extract brewing.  Some interesting recipes, =
>if you're an extract brewer.  I did come across something that I had =
>never read before: the author claims that a long boil (2-3 hours) will =
>cause some hot break proteins to re-disolve into the wort, producing a =
>velvety smooth beer with tons of body.  Can anyone verify this?

I can verify that the hot break will indeed begin to re-dissolve after
2 or 3 hours... it's well-documented and written-up in George Fix's
Principles of Brewing Science and Jean DeClerck's A Textbook of Brewing.
I do believe that the author is making a *HUGE* assumption that the
redissolution of the hot break will be beneficial to the finished product.
Nowhere have I read this in all my reading.

It's true that small and medium-sized proteins improve head retention, but
I feel that it's unwise to presume that the proteins that redissolve will be
of the right size to be beneficial.

I've made several beers in which I accidentally took 8 or even 9 gallons
of runnings for a 5-gallon batch.  Naturally, I had to boil these for
more than 2 hours to get the proper amount of volume loss.  Reviewing
my tasting notes, these beers were unremarkable in terms of body and
smoothness.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:08:05 +0000
From: "Jesse Benbow" <benbowj at ava.bcc.orst.edu>
Subject: Re: spongy gunk in fermenter

On Thurs Oct 23, Jim Poder wrote about pea sized spongy stuff 
floating around in his fermenter, and wondered if it was an 
infection.

Well, I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I'm pretty sure it's 
not an infection.  I've done 7 all grain batches, and had this show 
up also.  I guess it's either hot or cold break.  The interesting 
thing is, in two batches of pale ale, I've had it, and in 3 batches 
of porters and stouts, I havn't.  I thought it was a dark beer/pale 
beer thing, but in the last batch, a dark mild, it showed up again.  
Another variable was that the pale ales and the mild all had a lot of 
hops, while the porters and stouts didn't.  All of the beers were 
fermented in glass, using yeast cultured from Deschutes, except the 
mild, which used Wyeast 1272.  The base malt for all of them was Great 
Western 2-row.  All were mashed at 105F-20 min, 135F-20 min, and 
150-155F - 60 min.

It's not something I'm worried about, but since it was brought up, 
I'm curious about what it is and especially why it only shows up in
some beers.  Any ideas, or does anyone else notice the same patterns?

Jesse Benbow in Medford, Oregon


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:34:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: RPSGT at aol.com
Subject: Spices

I am in the process of designing a Holiday Ale using spices such as cinnamom
stick, nutmeg, vanilla bean, cardamom, etc.  I haven't totally decided yet.
 My question is what is the best way to introduce these into my beer?  Should
I make a spiced tea and add it during bottoling?  What's the best way to make
the tea?  Should I steep the spices after the boil? How long should I do
this?  Should I put them in during the boil? How does adding spices during
the boil differ from makeing a spiced tea or steeping the spices?  Any help
would be greatly appreciated.
 
 Thanks,
 Dennis Putnam
 Asheville, NC 


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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:36:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Ensley <steve at globaldialog.com>
Subject: Coffee Stout

When I did a Chocolate/Coffee stout last year I made the coffee about the
same way but then I just threw the whole thing, most of the grounds and 8
oz of bakeing chocolate into the wort toward the end of the boil and put
the whole shebang into the primary.  End result was quite good according
to most who tried it.  Pretty rich, a good one to finish off an evening of
tasting, or for dessert after dinner. 

>Tonight I bottled a stout and did the following:
>1. Used a French Coffee Press and made 4 cups of coffee with 12 scoops of
>Starbucks coffee.
>2. Let the boiling water sit in the coffee press for 30 minutes.
>3. Filtered through a coffee filter ( the press lets gunk through)
>4. Boiled and primed as usual.



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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:05:53 -0400
From: Gordon & Cindy Camp <revcamp at epix.net>
Subject: Breweries/Brewpubs in N.E. Penn

My wife and I will be traveling to the Strudsburg, PA  area for a week 
in November and were wondering if there are any Breweries,Brewpubs 
or Pubs that are a must for this area?  We are aware of The Lion and 
Yeungling, but would appreciate any others. We are willing to drive into 
North Jersey.    


				Thanx

Gordon A. Camp
revcamp at epix.net

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:41:06 +0000
From: Chris White <whitelab at fia.net>
Subject: Re: whitelabs

Thanks for the interest in White Labs yeast.  Here is a little 
information on our cultures.  The homebrew yeast vials we produce are 
equivalent to concentrated pint starters.  They are packaged at 1-2 
billion cells per ml, so each vial ends up containing 30-50 billion 
cells.  Lag times for 5 gallons average 12 hours, but variations occur 
due to yeast storage time/temp, fermentation temp, wort gravity, and 
wort aeration.   Viability (determined by methylene blue) remains high 
when the vials are stored at 38 F.  A 6 week old vial of California Ale 
Yeast usually has 80-85 percent viability, but methyl blue does not give 
any indication of fermentation ability or ability to reproduce.  That is 
one of the things we are currently investigating.  We recommend our 
vials to be used within 4 weeks if they are going to pitched directly 
into 5 gallons (they are dated with the bottling date).  After that, or 
for a pitching rate of 1-2 liters slurry, one of our vials can be 
propped up in one day.   We continually do time/viability/lag time 
studies, and recently a 2 1/2 month old English Ale vial developed 
kraeusen in 12 hours.   Thanks again,

Chris White, Ph.D.
President
White Labs, SD, CA

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Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:37:20
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: steinbier again

Dave Burley writes:
>As I recall, Steinbier is made by pouring wort
>OVER hot rocks and *not* by putting hot rocks
>INTO the wort, nicht wahr??

The story I heard was that, in the really old days,
the germans used wooden kettles.  They couldn't
put the wood over a fire to boil the wort, so they put
the fire (i.e. super hot rocks) in the wort.

As for exploding rocks, when Chuck Skypeck makes
his steinbier (a regular beer at his brewpub), he
has never had a rock explode.  Small pieces will occasionally
crack off though, so rocks get retired after a while.  
He gets his rocks from hiking on colorado, though,
not (presumably) in streams.  Pink granite.

I also wonder about the idea of saving the rocks to
add to the secondary.  Is this a modern idea to not
"waste" those nice caramels on the rocks?

       - Bryan
         gros at bigfoot.com
         Oakland, CA

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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 10:10:50 +0000
From: dscourfi at ford.com (Darren Scourfield)
Subject: How do you guys clean your 3 tier systems?

I'm in the process of building a 3 tier system using 50 l stainless beer kegs 
(not very common in the UK).  I was planning to use stainless tubes to rigidly 
connect the vessels together.

Stainless valves and connections with tapered threads are too expensive and 
the threaded nickel coated brass valves have parallel threads which I guess 
might cause sealing problems (is this true?) plus I would need to get threaded 
tubes.  I was therefore thinking of using nickel coated brass valves with 
built in compression fittings.  Good idea?

I just thought about cleaning.  Do people normally strip the system down after 
a brewing session or just flush hot water through the system?

How many times can you disconnect and reconnect compression fittings before 
they start leaking?

Can you get good, cheap quick connectors of some kind?

I don't know anyone who has any kind of permanent setup so I have nothing to 
copy.

Thanks in advance.

Darren,
Essex, England.


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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:12:46 -0400
From: kpeters at ptd.net (Kevin Peters)
Subject: Infection

After reading Brian Dixon's post about an infection after weeks in the 
bottle, I think my beers are suffering from a similar fate.  They taste
great at bottling time, but after 7 weeks or so in the bottle, they begin to
take on a sour/bitter tang that only affects the taste.  They still smell
fine.  I ferment in glass, and bottle using the typical plastic bucket.  I
am planning to do a couple of things:
   1.  Replace every plastic component in my brewery (airlocks, siphon
        hoses, bottling bucket and spigot).
   2.  Switch to sanitizing using iodophor instead of bleach.
   3.  Pay a *lot* more attention to cleaning and sanitation.
Any other suggestions from the collective?  Is there an alternative to
a plastic bottling bucket (besides kegging)?  TIA.

Kevin
Mechanicsburg, PA


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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:19:52 -0400
From: sscott at lightlink.com (Steve Scott)
Subject: Subject: Keg Burners

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:14:36 -0400, you wrote:

>I wanted to get your opion on which type of cooker or burner works best
>with a Sanke keg.  I currently have a king kooker jet burner which works
>well, but I am planning on taking my brewing inside.  No need to warn
>me about CO, I am making plans to vent the CO outside.

Please make sure that your future cooker has a lockout which will shut
down the gas valve if the flame goes out.  You don't want propane or
methane dumping indoors.  Especially 5 or 10 minutes of a 100k btuh
burner.


** The problem with the average family today is that it's=20
impossible to support it and the government on one income.

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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:21:57 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: lack of hot break


Jim Wallace tells us of his lack of hot break, in a wort with pH
4.9-5.1.

Jim, I learned the hard way that lower pH can do this to you, even with
Irish Moss.
A few brews ago I tweaked my sparge water way down to 4.6 or 4.7.  I
never did
measure the pH of the final pre-boil wort, but it would have been low.
I therefore
didn't get much hotbreak, and no cold break at all coming out of my
chiller.  
Where normally my wort-out side would be cloudy as anything from
coagulated
proteins, on this batch it was crystal clear.  

Furthermore, after 2 weeks in the 2ndary, the thing was still nowhere
near clear
so I threw it in the fridge.  It sat there for 3 more weeks and didn't
clear any
at all.  Normally a week in the fridge will drop any of my beers
completely
bright.

Finally I added some Isinglass finings to it, and it dropped bright in
about
72 hours.

Good luck,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
Nortel Enterprise Networks
Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations
PC Support Prime


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