---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  TSP and Stainless ("Dave \"Brews\" Rutkowski")
  RE: Fast Fermentation Follow-up (Kit Anderson)
  CABA Annual General Meeting (Eamonn McKernan)
  "Nickel Plated" Brass (Eric Schoville)
  Really nasty refrigerator stains (Michael A. Owings)
  flatulence (Mike Maag)
  RE: Brewing in kegs (John Wilkinson)
  RE:   Enameled Steel Pots (Richard Gardner)
  Keg Burners (Chris Dodge)
  Beer History (Adam=Fisher)
  Rainwater for Brewing? (Jon Bovard)
  Chlorine and RO (A. J. deLange)
  Canadian Amateur Brewers Assoc. Competitions / Events (Eamonn McKernan)
  240v heater elements and brewery automation ("Thor")
  re:munich Malt (Charley Burns)
  Questions about the MaltMill (tm) (Ted Chilcoat)
  primary aeration (James Vahsen)
  Munich as a base malt ("Alan McKay")
  New to the Valley (RANDY ERICKSON)
  Electrical Hazard? (Robert Arguello)
  re: GABF (sort of...) (Lizardhead)
  Stein-brauers - try firebrick ("Rich, Charles")
  Re: Airlock Question - ideal airlock design. (Steve Alexander)
  lack of hot break ?? (Jim Wallace)
  Culturing Yeast (Greg Young)
  Munich malt (Al Korzonas)
  beer magazines (Chris Storey)
  Engineering; distilled water; crazy lambic idea (Samuel Mize)
  GABF rant reply (Dan_ccmail_Taylor_at_IRV008)
  sulfites ("David Johnson")
  Hop rehydration (Michael W Bardallis)
  Jeff's rantings, GABF (Nathan Moore)


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hbd.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.) 

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to homebrew-request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
**ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! 
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to brewery at realbeer.com

Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org

Requests for back issues will be ignored. Back issues are available via:

  Anonymous ftp from...
	hbd.org	/pub/hbd	
	ftp.stanford.edu	/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  E-mail...
        ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com (send a one-line e-mail message with 
                                   the word help for instructions.)
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:47:23 -0400
From: "Dave \"Brews\" Rutkowski" <brews at blackboard.com>
Subject: TSP and Stainless

Hello,

  Is TSP (Tri-Sodium Phosphate) ok to use for cleaning stainless, i.e.
corny kegs? I've used it (1-2 tbs per gallon of H2O) to clean out my
counter flow wort chiller with good results.  If not, what is the best
cleaner to use?  

TIA
- -- 
Have a great day,

Dave
 
[> Dave "Brews" Rutkowski - mailto:brews at blackboard.com  <]
[> http://www.blackboard.com/brews   -   Bristol, PA USA <]
[>                   ICQ - 2650918                       <]

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:24:06 -0700
From: Kit Anderson <kitridge at bigfoot.com>
Subject: RE: Fast Fermentation Follow-up

Aaron Spurlock writes:
> "My house stays at 75 degrees (any lower and I'd be broke), which
> most say is too high for my ale to ferment properly, possibly
> contributing
> to the "tangy, salivary gland swelling" flavor I described. People gave
> some wonderful suggestions, and if I have enough successes, I will
> eventually get a fridge or other "cooler" for my beer."

Sounds like a lactic or acetobacter infection rather than higher
alcohols.

- -- 
Kit Anderson				ICQ# 2242257
Bath, Maine				<kitridge at bigfoot.com>



Return to table of contents


Date: 	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:14:29 -0400
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: CABA Annual General Meeting 

I posted this in august, but figured you all might want a reminder...

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
<snip>
	Anyways, The Canadian Amateur Brewers Association is now planning 
its annual general meeting. Thought some of you all might be interested 
in attending. As always, the meeting itself is free to all attendees.
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions,
	Eamonn McKernan
	CABA Secretary
	eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca

- ----------------

Here's the schedule and pricing information:

Planned day of CABA AGM (Saturday, November 22, 1997).

CABAL members are also invited at the same prices.

9:00AM	Coffee & doughnuts at Feathers (962 Kingston Rd., Toronto, - first
light west of Victoria Park Ave.).
9:30AM	AGM
11:00AM	Free pint of Feathers brewed beer while All About Ales awards
presented.
11:30AM	Board bus.
1:00PM	Arrive Old Stone Brewing Co. (brewpub). Buffet lunch with free
pint and whistle stop brewery trip.
2:30PM	Arrive United Canadian Malt. Split into groups. Group 1 slide show
while group 2 shown mill, mash tun, lauter tun, evaporators etc., then
swap.
4:30PM	5 minute drive to Kawartha Lakes Brewing Co. Brewery trip.
6:00PM	Bus back to Feathers. Optional dinner.
8:00PM	Beer trivia quiz for those still around.


Prices are as follows:

Those attending the meeting only - free.
Coffee, doughnuts & pint after meeting - $8, ($10 non members)
Peterbrough trip only - $40 ($45 non members)
Whole day - $45 ($50 non members)

Payment should be made by cheque mailed to:

CABA,
146 First Ave.,
Toronto, ON
M4M 1X1

Please write "CABA AGM" on your cheque.

A maximum of 55 people can travel on the coach. Book early for a seat.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:40:19 -0500
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: "Nickel Plated" Brass

As part of my continuing Keg Coversion project, I was at the hardware
store 
looking for ball valves.  I happened to see some that appeared nickel
plated.
On the tag it said that they were usable for water.  Well, I thought
that 
this was a great way to avoid the whole lead in brass issue, so I bought
them.
When I got them home and read the tag more carefully, I see that it also
says
on the tag, "This product contains a material known to the State of
California
to cause reproductive toxicity."  This sort of scares me!  Is this there
because
the brass contains lead, or is there something in the nickel plating
that is 
also toxic?  Should I go back to the store and just buy the regular
brass valves?

TIA,

Eric Schoville

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:48:56 GMT
From: mikey at waste.com (Michael A. Owings)
Subject: Really nasty refrigerator stains

I have an inherited fridge with some TRULY nasty stains.  I have no
idea what they are from,  but they're several years old,  yellow,
organic,  rock hard  (almost like a part of the interior plastic) and
_probably_ of terrestrial origin.  Any ideas how to get rid of these?

I have tried straight clorox and elbow grease with only limited
success.

I considered trying Easy-Off oven cleaner,  which appears to be
basically just spray-on lye,  but don't know whether this will melt
the plastic as well as the stain.  Any comments?

Any other comments on effective cleaners for plastics would be
appreciated.  I intend to use this fridge for lagering and
fermentation and would like it as clean as possible.
***********************
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can. *** And the wisdom to 
hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed 
me off ***

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 05:55:30 -0400
From: Mike Maag <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: flatulence

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:57:15 -0500
Wills, Frederick J wrote:
 <<I HAVE A QUESTION..EVERYTIME I DRINK SOME OF MY BEER I HAVE EXTREME
FLATUATION..IS THIS NORMAL? IS MY BEER NOT DONE FERMENTING OR SOMETHING??>>

I read last year, in this exellent forum, the problem is complex sugars and
carbohydrates, much like those in baked beans.  Eat some "Bean-O" from the
local drugstore.  It worked for me.  It actually seems my gut is now
digesting the stuff on its own now, or it could be olfactory fatigue 8*)


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 17:59:37 CDT
From: jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Brewing in kegs

Shreefal Mehta asked about brewing in kegs.

I have found that brewing in 5 gallon kegs requires even more attention to
wort aeration than usual.  I believe this to be due to the geometry of
the keg which presents a much smaller surface area of the wort to the
atmosphere than a carboy or bucket.

For air locks I have used a hose slipped over the threads of the removed gas
in fitting with the other end in a jar of water and also, for keg lids with
a removable pressure relief valve, a normal airlock in a #2 stopper in the
hole for the valve.

If the plan is to transfer the beer out of the liquid out side, the dip tube
would have to be cut off to clear the sediment left after fermentation.  I
just siphon off as predicting the depth of sediment is difficult and I hate
to cut up an expensive to replace dip tube.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at imtn.dsccc.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:12:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Gardner <rgardner at papillion.ne.us>
Subject: RE:   Enameled Steel Pots

Vern wrote:
>>Are there any paint chemists out there who can give me some advice on a
>>touchup paint to use for an enameled steel pot that has a few chips out of
>>it?  I'd like to preserve the coating but don't want something that will
>>contaminate the beer.  I've been thinking of using some appliance paint since
>>it seems fairly durable.

What you should use is "Porcelain touch-up," available at the hardware
store.  It comes in a small bottle (1 oz) for about $3.  This stuff is
labeled lead free, and withstands temperatures to 400F.  

On a related matter, I saw 33 Qt pots (8 gallon+), blue enamel on steel, at
"The 1/2 Price Store" (a chain in the midwest) for $14.99 this weekend.  


- --- A porcupine with his quills down is just another fat rodent ---


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:06:02 -0400
From: Chris Dodge <cdodge at ptc.com>
Subject: Keg Burners

Hi everyone

I wanted to get your opion on which type of cooker or burner works best
with a Sanke keg.  I currently have a king kooker jet burner which works
well, but I am planning on taking my brewing inside.  No need to warn
me about CO, I am making plans to vent the CO outside.

I dont want to bring in the king kooker inside and am trying to find
a burner which will work adaquately.  I brew all grain 5.5 gallon
batches, so I typically boil about 7 gallons.

I have looked at the camp chefs and the burners sold at Precision
Brewing, but they seem to be too small to safely seat the keg.  Does
anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks
Chris Dodge

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 8:12:19 EDT
From: Adam=Fisher%SDL%MSDBED at vines.msd.ray.com
Subject: Beer History

Hello All,

	I'm compiling a list of words that relate to brewing throughout 
history and was wondering if any of you could give me a hand.  Any thing you 
could think of would be most appreciated.  How did wort get the name wort?  
How did some beers get their names?

An example is below.  (Take this with a grain of salt.  I got it from a 
source that I'm not to sure of.)

Connor - A Connor was an inspector of sorts in medieval England.  His job was 
to walk around to all the local pubs, breweries, etc. and inspect the 
"wares".  How he did this was to wear a pair of leather pants and carry a 
stool with him.  When he reached "Ye Olde Pub" he would put the stool down 
and request two mugs of Ale.  The first mug he would pour on the seat and sit 
down in.  The second mug he would slowly drink while talking to the locals.  
At the end of his Ale, when he stood up, he would check to see if he stuck to 
the stool.  If he did, then the brewer at this establishment was not making a 
satisfactory Ale and was reprimanded.  If he didn't stick, everything was 
good and he moved on.

That an example of stuff I'm looking for.  If any of you got anything I would 
be forever grateful.

TIA

Adam Fisher

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1986 12:49:47 +1000
From: Jon Bovard <j.bovard at student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Rainwater for Brewing?

Hello all.

Has anyone got any data on the chemical compositin of Rainwater and its
viabilty/cleanliness in Brewing.

I was considering leaving a hell of a lot of buckets out on my tennis court
to catch the rain and use this for mashing. Using calcium chloride to build
calcium ions etc.

The air here in Brisbane is preety fresh ie. no smog, little pollution.


Any experiences
cheers
JB
Brisbane Australia


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:57:55 -0500
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Chlorine and RO

Keith Christian asked about chlorine and RO units. I believe it is true
that chlorine will poison the RO membrane but nearly all units sold run the
water through particulate and activated carbon filters before it gets to
the RO cylinder. One of the major function of the activated carbon is, in
my understanding, protection of the membrane by removing chlorine. It is
also rumored that changing the activated carbon filter frequently can
extend the life of the RO cartridge beyond its normal expected life. You
would have to check on the health of the membrane by monitoring the
conductivity of the outlet water. Note that some units have a conductivity
monitor built in. This reminds me that it's about time to replave the
particulate and carbon filters and check conductivity!

A. J. deLange
 - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.

- --> --> --> To reply remove "nosp" from address. <-- <--



Return to table of contents


Date: 	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:51:27 -0400
From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Canadian Amateur Brewers Assoc. Competitions / Events 

I just got this from our competitions guy. Upcoming CABA events and=20
competitions...
=09Eamonn McKernan
=09CABA secretary
=09eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca

1997 All About Ales Competition is well under way. The entry deadline is
Saturday November 1, 1997 at:
Wellington County Brewery
950 Woodlawn Road West
Guelph, Ontario  N1K 1B8
(519) 837-2337
The judging is set for Sunday November 16 at Wellington County Brewery.
Anyone interested in judging should contact Richard Oluszak at (905)
691-6241 or richard.oluszak at sympatico.ca.

CABA would like to thank both of the AAA sponsors, Wellington County
Brewery and Brewing Techniques Magazine.

1998 March in Montreal is getting started. Look for an entry deadline
around early March. For more up to date information check out CABA=92s web
site at http://realbeer.com/caba/.

1998 Great Canadian Homebrew Competition is starting to shape up, there
will be either a late April or early May deadline this year. Once again
we are going to have regional drop off sites. Confirmed sites so far
include:

The Brew Guys
 900 Cole Harbour Road 95 Akerley Boulevard
 (Colby Village Shopping Center) Suite 1
 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
 B2V 2J5 B3B 1R7
 (902) 435-9463 (902) 468-9463

Magnotta Brewery  www.magnotta.com
 2555 Dixie Road     271 Chrislea Road     1760 Midland Avenue     4701
Ontario Street     1585 Victoria Street North
 Mississauga, Ontario Vaughan, Ontario     Scarborough, Ontario   =20
Beamsville, Ontario     Kitchener, Ontario
 L4Y 2A1         L M1P 3C2 L0R 1B4 N2B 3E6
 (905) 897-WINE (905) 738-WINE (905) 701-9696 (905) 563-5313 (519)
571-0084

This year there will not be a Canadian drop off site for the American
Homebrewers Association=92s National Homebrew Competition. Instead the top
entries in each class of the GCHC will advance to the second round of
the AHA=92s competition if the brewer so wishes.

Entry fees for all competitions are $6 for members and $8 for
non-members.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:11:06 +0000
From: "Thor" <thor at dnai.com>
Subject: 240v heater elements and brewery automation

Since there seems to be a mini thread about setting up an electric
element for one homebrewery, I thought I throw in my two cents. I'm
currently in the midst of adding a heating element to my Hot liquor
tank. The heater I have is a  240 volts 4800 watt water heater element
and bolts a square stainless tank. I hope to use this element to heat
up and maintain my initial mash strike water and sparge water for
brewing. This is how I'm setting it up. If your not into the details,
tap the old Page down button.

Originally I thought it might be nice to control the heating element,
sort of like a dimmer controls the brightness of a lamp. After
examining Ken Schwartz 5 gallon electric brewery I had some ideas of
what I wanted to do. One prerequisites I had was that I wanted to
design the circuit so it could be controlled with a low voltage on my
control panel and be able to automate the heating with a computer and
D/A interface. In block diagram, I wanted something like this (excuse 
my  ascii drawing)

         !----------!                !--------!
Heating  ! Control  !      5 volt    ! control!
Element--! Circuit  !----------------!  Panel !
         !----------!                !--------!
              !                           !
             GFCI                    !----------!
              !                      ! computer !
             240V				 ! interface!
                                     !----------!

After doing some research, I found a simple solution based partially
on an article written by Ron LaBorde in the HBD archive. His solution
used a normal lamp dimmer attached to a special solid state relay
(SSR). This relay cost about $20 bucks and can control a large load of
30 or so Amps with only a small control voltage (3-32 volts dc). The
circuit basically took the low load dimmer (600 watt rated) and
attached it to the high load SSR (25 Amp rated) to thereby increase
its rating.

My circuit differs in several ways from LaBorde.  Without getting into
too much detail (this is  not sci.electronics for heaven sakes) I 
plan on controlling the element by alternately switching it on and off
for various amounts of time. For example, if I wanted to reduce the
power to the element, I could turn it on for 3 seconds and off for 2
instead of continuously on. The switching can be done by a simple
circuit or by a computer and software. The control voltage is still
only 5 volts but can control 240V at 25A by the use of the SSR.

Using this method solves another problem as well, the problem of
heating more than one vessel at a time. I also plan on adding elements
to my boil kettle and my mash tun.  If you have a 30 amp 240 v circuit
in your house (like a typical dryer circuit) and 4800 watt elements
(20 amp  at  240V) then you have a problem if you turn on more than one.
If you alternately turn the different elements on and off, then you
shouldn't have a problem as long as you don't turn on more than one at
a time. You wont get as much heat as turning the element on all the
time of course but I don't see this as a problem. The reason I would
foresee heating more than one container at a time is to keep one at a
steady temperature while I heat the other (like keeping the Sparge
water constant while your starting to heat up what you have so far in
the boil kettle).

Anyways, enough engineering. I hope this is useful to someone on the
digest. If you into stainless or brewery automation, I've been slowly
getting my webpage to document the work I'm doing at:
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/index.htm.

and for those interested in less brewery engineering you are welcome
to  check out my clubs webpage at:
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm

THOR

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:15:19 -0700
From: Charley Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re:munich Malt

Dan Thaler asks about using Munich malt as a base malt in HBD#2537.

Dan, 
Munich makes a great base malt for Bock, Dopple Bock, Altbier, Vienna,
Dunkle, Oktoberfest, just to name a few. It has a very slight carmelly
flavor (not as much as light crystal malts, but still evident) toasty,
malty flavor.

The only gotcha (other than cost) that you need to watch out for is if
you use any adjuncts (malts or grains without enzymes). You can count on
munich to convert its own starch but its not necessarily enzymatic
enough to always convert adjunct starches. So if you're using a high
percentage of munich (or vienna for that matter) as a base malt and you
are also including some non-enzymatic adjuncts (rice, corn, etc), make
sure to include some plain old 2-row or 6-row for more enzymes.

Munich is a lager (pale) malt which is higher kilned (around 220F vs
175F).

Dave Millers Handbook of Homebrewing has an excellent description of
most base and specialty malts. Highly recommended reading, as is the
Great Grain Issue from 1995 Zymurgy.

Charley (heading for Seattle this weekend) in N. Cal

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:26:59 -0500
From: Ted Chilcoat <tedc at xcaliber.com>
Subject: Questions about the MaltMill (tm)

I have made up my mind to buy a MaltMill, but I am confused about the
available options.

Should I purchase it with the gear drive option or the stainless rollers? 
What seems to be the most popular configuration for this mill?

You can send private e-mail if you would like to keep your comment
offline.

Thanks for the help,
Ted C.

e-mail: tedc at xcaliber.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:41:41 -0700
From: vahsenj at mercury.stm.com (James Vahsen)
Subject: primary aeration

OK, in an effort to get a better finishing gravity by prolonging the
active fermentation, I have been considering reaerating the primary
after about 1 week.  Just did a Xmas ale, which had a LOT of fermentable
sugars, and it went pretty strong for 3 days.  In the past, the starting
gravities have been normal, but I tend to not get the final gravity as
low as it should be, and I think that perhaps the yeasties just go dormant
too fast because they run out of O2 too early.  I used to do the shake 
and roll method with the carboy to oxygenate.  So, now I tried the air
pump with the stone, and that seemed to do the trick, as it went for
a good 3 days, versus the normal 1.5 to 2 days.  My question is whether
it will harm the beer to reaerate with the stone for a few minutes now
that the really active fermentation is done, such that the yeast can
kick back into gear, and continue to ferment?  I've heard stories about
how reoxygenating might be bad, something about tasting like wet
cardboard?  However, whenever I siphon to secondary, it starts to 
ferment again, as there is some Oxygen that gets back into the beer
during the transfer.  This is what gave me the idea to reoxygenate
prior to the transfer to really let it go again?  FYI, this is for
an all-grain batch...  To re-aerate, or not to re-aerate?

Thanks,

JimV  (vahsenj at stm.com)

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:45:35 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Munich as a base malt


Well, by it's truest definition, "Munich" malt is nothing more than the
base malt
used by breweries in that city.  Of course, these days different malters
are
producing very different products called by that name.

Myself, I've used Canada Malting's "Munich" as a base malt in a recipe
that I brew a lot, and found it to make a very excellent beer.

Normally I brew this :

6 lb  Canada Malting 2 Row
1 lb CM Wheat
1 lb CM Munich

But a few brews ago I changed it to

6 lb CM Munich
1 lb CM Wheat
1 lb CM 2 Row

Everything went completely normally with the brew.  The resulting colour
was roughly that of a Pale Ale, and the brew was most excellent!  I'm
going
to make the same thing but lager it this time.

The only thing to watch out for is using adjuncts.  I don't think Munich
has
as much extra enzymes as say 2 Row.

 -alan

- --
Alan McKay
Nortel Enterprise Networks
Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations
PC Support Prime


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:48:23 -0700
From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: New to the Valley

Keith Christian just moved from Orange County to the San Fernando
Valley (northern Los Angeles) and has a few questions:

Wish I'd known, I have a house near Northridge I'd like to get rid of  ;-)

I have to plead ignorance, but do your comments about text-based
communications mean that the Web is not available to the Blind?  What a
waste.

The Department of Water & Power website has a water quality section
where you can get the analyses from different parts of the city (based
on which treatment facilities and wells are utilized in which areas).  They
have a number of competent water chemists that can help you get this
information too, but be prepared for a bit of phone time if you start out
with the 800-number.

I can't comment on RO, but my cheap undersink charcoal canister filter
works great for removing noticeable chlorine from the water in my area. 
Most Valley water is typically treated at Sylmar -- they don't use the
method that can be removed by boiling, you have to filter.

The Maltose Falcons is one of the biggest (and some say best) clubs
anywhere -- they meet at the Home Wine, Beer & Cheesemaking
Shopppe in Woodland Hills -- a great supply shop, coincidence?  Contact
Brian Vessa, Maltose Falcons President, at: bav at earthlink.net for more
info.  Brewer's Resource (mail order/retail shop) used to be located right
around the corner from you, but has since moved out toward Ventura,
but is still worth the drive.

Good luck in your new place,

Randy Erickson
Modesto, California
randye at mid.org

Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers
c/o Barley & Wine, Ceres, CA
www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/1970/


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:22:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: Electrical Hazard?

I recently completed my RIMS system and am concerned that there may be a
potential for electrocuting myself.

For a heating chamber I mounted a 240 volt replacement water heater element
inside a copper pipe. I wired the element with 120 volts. Is it possible
that the element could someday "short" and electrify the copper pipe?  If
so, would running a ground wire from the pipe to a good ground protect me?

Thanks
Robert Arguello

		"All in a Days Wort"
Gen. Sec. "Davis BrewCrafters"
3, 5 and 10 gallon ball lock kegs for sale at.....
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac 
robertac at calweb.com
(916) 756-4956


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 10:50:30 -0000
From: Lizardhead <memerson at fone.net>
Subject: re: GABF (sort of...)

From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: GABF (Sort of...)

>Did anyone go to the Rock Bottom Brewery, and try their Cask
>Conditioned Ale?

>Well, if its in line with the rest of their malarkey that they try to pass
>off as a micro brew pub, then I'm not at all surprised. They are without
>honor, and I do not trust them! What do you expect from liars and cheaters?

"Hey Joe, where you goin' with that gun in your hand?"

Wow!  I'm used to critiques and criticisms from folks with HOs, but your 
malice is surprising and I sincerely hope, unwarranted.  Deception and 
subterfuge are not part of our business philosophy, and I would go to 
great lengths to quash any perception of either.  I'm curious as to what 
Rock Bottom experience you may have had that has given rise to such 
malevolence.  Please let me know.  
 
>there's also an alarming trend towards self
>defined beers based upon marketing strategies without style substantiation
>to go along with it.

>Are the guidelines *really* that broad for an E.S.B.? I thought gold to
>copper with 14 >SRM being the upper end of the scale was the range for an
>E.S.B.  (At least
>that's how the one *I* just brewed looks!!!)

>That may well be the reasonable approach, but you're assuming that truth in
>labeling laws apply to products on premises. There needs to be an industry
>watchdog that can take to task those who are less than honest about the
>brews they produce.

Rock Bottom has never claimed to make "English ales" or "German lagers" 
but "American ales and lagers" using the finest domestic and imported 
ingredients to create beers "we like and we hope you do too."  We have 
over 300 recipes and no two brewerys are brewing the same beers.  I 
consider style categories to be too confining and look to classic "style" 
beers only for inspiration in creating something of my own.  Thank God 
Ken Grossman didn't have his head buried in the "beer styles" handbook 
when he created Sierra Pale. (a bit too hoppy for a typical English pale 
isn't it?)  What about Paul Shipman's RedHook or Widmer's "Hefeweizen". 
Confining and categorizing appeals most to those who aren't interested in 
the "art" part of brewing so much as their rows and columns and boxes.  I 
don't brew beers that fit into boxes, I brew beers to fit into pints.  I 
cant' summarize any better than Sam Piper did just a few days ago in this 
forum.

"The problem I have with beer judging and beer style categories and
standards is that they are creative death.  Nobody ever grew in life by
always trying to copy someone else  To copy is to exercise in technique
and technique alone."


Mark Youngquist
Founder/Head Brewer
Rock Bottom Brewerys

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:07:51 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at saros.com>
Subject: Stein-brauers - try firebrick

Just an idea, and not one I've tried, but I imagine you steinbeer
brewers out there might be well (and safely) served by using ordinary
firebrick if appropriate natural stones are not available.

Regarding the long queue for HBD articles, could we go back to the old
system where the HBD was issued when a certain threshold in the queue
was reached?  I know this can result in multiple issues per day
sometimes, but it helps keep things current.  I always enjoyed seeing a
surprise issue later in the day.

Cheers,
Charles Rich


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:57:29 -0400
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Airlock Question - ideal airlock design.

Joshua Penney asks ...

>I recently brewed a batch of port[er?] after installing the airlock i
>realized my girlfriend had drank all the vodka instead I used Cuervo 
>1800
>
>First of all, this should work right?

I'm afraid it's hopeless. If she'll drink cheap vodka when Cuervo is
available things will never 'work right'. OTOH your beer is safe as long
as the worm doesn't clog the airlock.

>second, I also think the cooling air or something Sucked Some of the
>Tequila in through the Lock

It is unlikely that enough tequila got into your beer to impact flavor.
It is possible for cooling to pull sanitizer from some types of airlock
into the brew.  This practically can't happen with an 'S' type airlock
when properly filled - I highly recommend these.  BTW - Where was your
girlfriend at the time the airlock tequila went missing ?

>Will this hurt brewing process any?

An SO that doesn't appreciate fine beverages will always hurt the
brewing process.  The textbook solution to finding an organism living on
your airlock sanitizer is to switch to a stronger sanitizer, one capable
of handling the offending organism. Thus the 'my SO drinks all the
airlock sanitizer' problem would logically be handled with iodine or
chlorine - then the drinking of sanitizer problem cannot persist for
long.

- --

There is a bigger and more interesting and - need I say it - more
pointy-headed scientific question regarding airlocks here.

An airlock supposedly has several purposes.  It keeps spores and
airborne bacteria out.  It keeps CO2 in and air(oxygen) out, which helps
prevent oxidation of the reactive flavor components of beer.  Normal
airlocks do not perform either of these functions particularly well.

In an air inrush of the sort described above, airborne spores and
bacteria can and do get through the sanitizer solution and into the beer
headspace.  It's doubtful that the sanitizer in the airlock is of much
actual value in the case of air inrush.  Fortunately this inrush
condition doesn't happen very often. Sanitizer solution does prevent the
growth of bacteria and fungi in the airlock and this is probably its
greatest value.

During active fermentation and later through secondary fermentation the
evolving CO2 constantly forces gas out, but also air O2 mixes with the
airlock liquid and may get into the fermentor.  Later a beer may sit
with an airlock and no bubbling, but still gas concentration gradients
for a long period of time. I haven't sought out numbers, but I suspect
that quite a bit of O2 can transfer through a water based fermentation
lock liquid.  This recalls some of the gas gradient discussions on HBD
regarding PET bottles.  Also many HBers use other potential oxidizers
such as bleach solution, in airlocks, where the gasses emitted might act
to oxidize beer.

An ideal airlock would allow no potentially contaminated air into the
fermentor, nor would it allow any atmospheric O2 into the fermentor.  A
HEPA filter helps with the first problem, but is hopeless regarding the
second.  It would seen that only an impermeable cover or membrane would 
keep O2 out.  Just how permeable to oxygen are oils, other liquids ?

Steve Alexander


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:34:47 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: lack of hot break ??

Seeking feedback from more learned brewers:
Brew day was yesterday for a robust porter... all seemed as normal until the
boil. When I checked for the break after the first 30min of a 90 min boil, I
found very tiny break particles where I usually find good sized pieces. 
I did not use any Irish Moss to drop the break because I usually find it not
neccesary with dark brews. After I did a chill and racked the wort it was
not very clear (I usually rack very crystal clear wort to fermenter then add
a little bit of trub). 
My normal 5 G batch usually yields 1.5-2 quarts of trub. This batch was only
about 8 ozs but it is currently dropping out in primary. 
I also noticed that my pH dropped to 4.9-5.1 for my preboil wort which
seemed a little lower than usual.  I also had much greater yield from this
batch (shooting for 1.056 and wound up w/ 1.066). 

This was a robust porter using 1.25 lbs dark grain. Mash was 135 at 15min
154 at 60min and mashout. 

Any comments or ideas on why the break was so weak??
___________________________________________
       JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
               www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:19:52 -0400
From: Greg_Young at saunderscollege.com (Greg Young)
Subject: Culturing Yeast

Cheers, all. With a degree in Biology and an obsession with brewing, I'm
interested in starting my own yeast bank. My only problem is that I don't have
access to an autoclave nor do I own a pressure cooker. I'm well aware of the
importance of sterilization (as opposed to sanitation) in yeast cultivation
procedures, and I was wondering if there are any suggested/possible methods for
achieving it in a homebrewer's humble abode (or should I just return to my Alma
Mater and raid the ol' Micro Lab....just kidding, professors). Thanx in advance.

Greg Young
G.Young's Basement Brewery
greg_young at saunderscollege.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:42:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Munich malt

Dan asks what beers use Munich as the base malt.

Well, Munchner Dunkel is an obvious example, same with Dunkelweizen.
Also, Duesseldorfer Altbier is typically made with 90 to 99% Munich
malt.  Light Munich (Weyermann makes one) would be my choice as the
base malt for an Oktoberfest.  There is no problem with using 100%
Munich malt except that you should be a *little* more careful with
your rest temperatures (don't overshoot) because Munich malt has lost
more enzymes during kilning and you wouldn't want (for example) to
accidentally overshoot 158F and keep the mash at 165F for too long.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:35:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Storey <cstorey at peterboro.net>
Subject: beer magazines

Hello Basement Brewers!

      I would like to subscribe to a beer magazine, but am not sure which
one to get. I have narrowed it down to 3. Brewing Techniques, Zymurgy, and
Brew Your Own. I am just a simple homebrewer, nothing too fancy. Partial
Mashes so far but leaning to all-grain. Any suggestions? Please, e-mail
replies only. 
                           Thank You,
                           Chris Storey



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:11:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Engineering; distilled water; crazy lambic idea

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> HOMEBREW Digest #2536               Tue 21 October 1997
> 
> From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner)
> Subject: re: beer - Science or art?

    [if beer were developed today by engineers]

>      OTOH, we could go to the frozen food section and get a can of A-B 
>      frozen beer mix right next to the Minute Maid orange juice, marguerita 
>      and pina colada mixes and take it home.  To "brew" up a pitcher, just 
>      add the correct amounts of soda water and vodka!  Yum!!

This exists now -- an 8-ounce bottle with all the rich malt and hops
flavorings needed to mix up a pitcher of A-B-style beer.  I think the
trade name is "Ozarka."

- -- - - - - - - - - - -
> From: layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
> Subject: bottled brewing water

> >If you're sanitizing properly, it may be chlorinated water.  Try a
> >batch with bottled (NOT distilled) water and see if that helps. 
> 
> What's the problem with distilled water?

Lack of minerals.  You're probably correct (later in your message) that
this is more important for mashers than for extract brewers.

- -- - - - - - - - - - -
> From: "Tkach, Christopher" <tkach at ctron.com>
> Subject: Sweetening Up Fruit Beer/Crazy Lambic Idea

> trying to sweeten up the Blueberry Ale that came out just a tad sour.
 ... I took a sample to the homebrew shop,
> and John (the owner) said it was probably infected (as I had suspected),
> but it wasn't a bad infection.  He seemed to think that it tasted a bit
> like a Lambic.  So I guess its not all that bad!!

Careful -- you don't want to take a sour fruit beer and call it a
lambic.  First, that would be mislabelling, which is immoral.
Second, you might get sued for trademark infringement!  (Maybe
instead of a p-Lambic it's a K-Lambic -- a Koch lambic?)

Is John familiar with fruit beers?  With the natural sugars fermented
out, I'd expect blueberries to be quite tart.  It may not be infected.

If it IS an infection, I would guess the bottle-grenade potential is
fairly high, so take care.

Monitor it and see if infection problems develop -- bad taste, excess
carbonation, texture changes, rings of gunk on the bottle necks.  I'm
afraid this means you'll have to keep drinking it on a regular basis,
but you expected to make some sacrifices, right?  :-)

If it doesn't have active infection problems, you might age some
bottles and see how the beer does in six months or a year.  With 7%
alcohol to preserve it and a taste in need of mellowing, this could
be a great next-year beer.

> Anyway, that got me thinking, why not try and culture the yeast from a
> bottle of the Blueberry Ale and try brewing a Lambic w/ it.  What do
> think?  Am I asking for a lot of trouble w/ this?  Is it even worth it?

It may give you new, good and interesting beers.  Do you need a
better answer?  :-)

> Would whatever created the sourness (wild yeast?) still be alive

I haven't heard about anyone culturing wild infections, so you're a
pathfinder.  If it sounds like a fun thing to try, see what happens.
(As long as this isn't your sustenance beer.)  After all, somebody
had to try soaking barley for the first time.

If you're familiar with microbiological culturing methods, you may be
able to isolate this yeast or bacteria.  If you're not, you can try
anyway, but you should expect to kill or contaminate a few cultures
during the learning process.  You may yet succeed.

Or take the Belgian approach: if it works, don't screw with it.  Some
of those guys still open the attic windows to "pitch" the local wild
yeasts, just like their ancestors did.

I'd try making a fairly plain non-fruit beer, lightly hopped, and
pour a bottle or two of the blueberry into the fermenter.  (If you
pitch yeast in addition, I supposed you'd better use the same yeast
too, so you don't get dueling colonies.)  See if it significantly
sours that batch.

If possible, save the yeast sediment from the fermenter for later use
- -- you can pitch it later if it didn't work.  See previous HBDs for
methods to save yeast, but I don't think you'd want to "wash" it,
since you're trying to SAVE a wild infection.

You might use a blowoff tube, and save BOTH the blowoff and the
sediment, and see if they give different results.

Maybe use 1-gallon test batches.  Cheaper, less work, quicker
results, and you'd use up less of the blueberry ale.  I'd guess 1/2
bottle is plenty for a gallon, if it's going to work at all.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:20:20 -0500
From: Dan_ccmail_Taylor_at_IRV008 at ccmailgw.mcgawpark.baxter.com
Subject: GABF rant reply

     I have been lurking on the Digest for a few months now, I'm 
     hoping the collective can answer a few questions.  Will Jeff 
     Sturmans complaining about the GABF ever stop?. Does he review 
     the content of his posting before he hits the send button?  Do 
     they make a bit of sense to you? Did he purchase a special 
     unlimited glassware ticket the festival staff refused to honor?  
     Or does he just feel he's entitled to as many free glasses as he 
     wants? If you broke or lost your glass, wouldn't you just buy 
     another and get on with your life?  Should we advise the 
     Association of Brewers to designate Saturday night just for 
     Jeff, that way he wont have to wait in any lines, it will be 
     free, and of course unlimited bags and glassware!  Maybe we 
     should work on finding some customers to purchase his Zymurgy 
     special issues, wait,I've got a logical solution, maybe if he 
     would reduce his prices by 50%, allow fewer customers in his 
     store and replace all broken glass carboys for free he would 
     sell those pesky issues!
     
     Dan Taylor
     
     P.S. If the GABF was such a drag,maybe he should stay home
          next year, and if he's going to be home all weekend, 
          I hope he stocks up on glasses! 

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:48:43 -0500
From: "David Johnson" <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: sulfites

A quick comment on using sulfites in cider. I will say that most my
knowledge is book learning and not from experience. Also, my cider books are
on loan and this is from memory. My understanding is that sulfites are more
effective at lower pH. That is, it takes less SO2 to do the job in an acidic
environment. If I recall correctly, the range of pH in apple juice ranges
from about 3.3-3.8. There is a chart  from Ashton Station that says how many
tablets to use based on pH. My problem was it was written in tabs per gallon
but I used US gallons. which also contributed to my over-sulfiting (see my
previous post). Dave


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:55:56 EDT
From: dbgrowler at juno.com (Michael W Bardallis)
Subject: Hop rehydration

Keith Busby wrote:

>Yesterday, I brewed an ESB and collected what I thought was 6.5 gals.
After
>boiling vigorously for 1hr 20 mins, I was only able to transfer 4.5 gals
to
>my primary. Assuming my initial volume was right, was my boil too
>long/vigorous? Or might the 3.5 oz. of leaf hops have absorbed .5 gals
>during their rehydration?

You bet.

1) It's hard to regulate your evaporation rate. It's nearly impossible to
boil too vigorously, and 1-and-20 is certainly not too long.  How about
just keeping a small amount of water boiling on a side burner to use for
a volume correction near the end of your boil?  Works for me.

2) 3 1/2 oz of hops can hold a lot of wort. How are you getting your wort
from kettle to fermenter? I use an immersion coil chiller in the kettle,
and then rack to the carboy through a slotted copper  racking tube that
lays on the kettle bottom (similar to the popular lauter manifold design
but much shorter). As the wort level in the kettle drops low  enough to
expose the hops, it is necessary to choke down the flow to a trickle to
drain the last 1/2-1 gallon of goodies. The more hops, the sooner you
gotta choke it. More patience=more wort.

Mike Bardallis

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:56:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: Nathan Moore <moorent at bechtel.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Jeff's rantings, GABF

	For all those who read Jeff's rants about the GABF and have never
been there.  Ignore him, if you ever get a chance go.  It is fun,
educational, and social.  If you think it is too crowded to try all
the good beer you can drink (and pour the bad stuff away) and have several
conversations with other brewers and beer lovers, both pro and amature,
than you are probably standing around whinning too much.
	Not trying to be mean, it's just that I would hate to see anyone
miss out on a great time next year because of one angry man.  And the
price is still about what I would spend if I drank that much good beer at
a bar, but the bar is far less fun. 
	Now back to brewing, it is much more interesting than politics.

Nathan Moore
Denver, CO


Return to table of contents

---