---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  AB New Dispensing System (Ray Kruse)
  Re: ODD. . . (Jim Larsen)
  Extract (Randy Lee)
  agave beer (Ahenckler)
  Re: Wort caramelization? (Mark Witherspoon)
  Malt Advocate/OnLine Brew Mags (Mark Tumarkin)
  Recipe Help (Bob Tisdale)
  Blow off cause (Andrew Stavrolakis)
  re: Airlocks (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
  Queen of Beer Competition Results (Gary_Sandler)
  Wort-scorchin' caramel crisis (Wort caramelization) (Samuel Mize)
  Adequate Ventilation (mjk)
  Save that moldy beer! (Samuel Mize)
  Wyeast 1968 (John Wilkinson)
  Looking for burners ("MICHAEL L. TEED")
  Re:  Wyeast 1968 and rousing/aerating / Deschutes Yeast? (George De Piro)
  Wit/Fruit Wheat Double Brew ("Jeff Johnson")
  mash temps and extraction efficiency (Tim Fields)
  DRAT!  Unmalted *WHEAT* in Witbiers. (Al Korzonas)
  Brewpot dilemna (Jim English)
  New brewer is born. (chudson)
  Wort Stability Tests (Chasman)
  Re: Coffee Stout ("Michael Kowalczyk")
  Many niches in the HB world (kathy)
  water analysis (AJ)
  When to transfer to secondary? (Eric Pendergrass)
  Extracting pleasure ("Michael Gerholdt")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 04:48:38 -0500
From: Ray Kruse <kruse2 at flash.net>
Subject: AB New Dispensing System

"Kirk Johnson" <johnson at primenet.com> wrote:

>  Anheuser-Busch Test Marketing Innovative Beer Dispensing System
>     =20
>      ST. PAUL, Minn., Oct. 28 /Newswire/ -- Anheuser-Busch (AB) =
> (NYSE:BUD)=20
>      announced an innovative beer dispensing system that will =
> fundamentally=20
>      change the way beer is distributed today.  "We have developed a=20
>      Beermix system for cooling and dispensing beer in which carbonated=20
>      water is mixed with beer syrup in the tap,"
>
You know, if AB thinks that their beer is referred to as "swill" because
the water in their brew goes stale in the can/keg/bottle, that may
explain why their beer is swill.

Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMd
rkruse at bigfoot.com

"Those are my principles!  If you don't like them, I have others."  G.
Marx


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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:28:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Larsen <jal at oasis.novia.net>
Subject: Re: ODD. . .

	
In HBD 2545, Paul Hausman wrote:

>We're willing to admit that we have something special that perhaps the 
>rest of the world just may not want or care about. Or maybe we just don't
>know enough big words. Anyone care to suggest an appropriate big word
>to throw back at the connoisseurs, aficionados, esthetes, and refined
>percipients of other enjoyments?

I go with Fred Eckhardt's "Beer Enthusiast".

Jim




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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:45:59 -0600
From: Randy Lee <rjlee at imation.com>
Subject: Extract

> Seems to me that the two most difficult things to achieve
> with extract beers are
> 1) very pale beers and
> 2) malty beers or beers with a lot of body.

I can attest to the incorrectness of the latter statement. We have two
excellent beers that are extract based (with colored malt used over it):
1) CopperHead has a good malt background (and body)
2) Big Swede is serious body

Pale is a problem...

Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas, WI.

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:48:05 EST
From: Ahenckler <Ahenckler at aol.com>
Subject: agave beer


<< 
I have done a couple test batches with a 40/60 ratio of agave to malt. 
Came out prety good, but I still have some tweaking of the recipe to do. 
I had been thinking about doing a contract brew with agave, but the >>


Don:

What did this stuff taste like?  What kind of yeast did you use?  I saw an ad
in Zymurgy (?) for agave extract and was thinking about playing with this
stuff, but I was wondering what the outcome would be.

 - Andrew


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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:14:41 -0500
From: markw at nnr_email_srvr.dowjones.com (Mark Witherspoon)
Subject: Re: Wort caramelization?

Rob wrote:
>1.Could I be scorching the wort because of the heat or because the pot is to
>thin.?

>2. Should I use a heavier pot?  

>3. Could it be because the wort is to concentrated?

>4. should I go for a gentle boil?

>5.Should I use a propane burner?

>6. Do any of you have caramelization problems?

>I don't think it is my proceedures as  I have read alot of the books. 
>If it's not caramelization what could it be?


I had only one batch during my extract days that carmelized.  I had
left the burner on while I poured in my extract.  What I recommend that
you use:
	1. Get a Pizza stone to put on the burner to even out the heat from
	the electric coil.
	2. Once your water get's near boiling, remove from the heat or turn
	it off, THEN put in your extract.  STIR like crazy to get it to mix
	in.
	3. Watch your boil, stir from the bottom almost constantly to keep 
	the sugars supended.
	
As for your other questions:
	1. Possible but try a stone first.
	2. Heavy pot ware is not absolutly messary.  This will prolong the
	heat to boil and the cool down.
	3. Yes, possible.  I have used 5 gallon pots during my extract days.
	Now I used a 10 gallon boiler.
	4. No the rolling boil is what you need to get the best out of your
	hops.
	5. Your choice...
	6. Had it, cured it.
	
	Comment, Read the books, Miller and Papazan are favorite writers on
	brewing subjects..
	
Mark Witherspoon, AKA David Ben Abraham
Cherry Hill NJ.   (Hometown of the Flying Fish Brewery)

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:37:56 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: Malt Advocate/OnLine Brew Mags

micah millspaw writes - 
>Does anyone  out there in HBD land know how to contact the Malt Advocate
>magazine? 

Try the following web site (it's part of the RealBeer page - an amazing
resource!):       www.realbeer.com/maltadvocate/


Many of us subscribe to at least one (or more) brewing magazine. If you are
a member of the AHA, you receive Zymurgy. There are other good brew mags
such as Brewing Techniques or Brew Your Own, as well as many others. Here
is a list of some of the brewing magazines you can find in Cybeer Space.
Many of these sites contain just highlighted articles from the print
versions. Others are perhaps more complete, but only for past issues - they
do want you to subscribe, after all. You can find many helpful articles and
lots of good information in them. Perhaps best of all, once you've paid
your nickel to be online, they are free.  So grab a mug of homebrew and
check them out. 

Ale Street News		http://www.alestreetnews.com/
American Brewer		http://www.ambrew.com/
Beer Notes			http://www.beerinfo.com/beermags/
Beer Talk			http://allaboutbeer.com/beertalk/index.html
Brew				http://www.brewmag.com/
Brew Pub			http://www.brewpubmag.com/
Brew Your Own			http://www.byo.com/
Brewing Techniques		http://www.brewingtechniques.com/
Celebrator Beer News		http://www.celebrator.com/celebrator/
Drink OnLine			http://www.drinkonline.com/
Malt Advocate			http://www.realbeer.com/maltadvocate/
Modern Brewery Age		http://www.breweryage.com/
Real Beer			http://realbeer.com/rbp/
Southern Draft Brew News   http://realbeer.com/sodraft/sodraft.html


Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle
(recently moved to Gainesville, FL)

PS - the above sites came from my bookmarks list and I haven't checked them
out recently to be sure that they are all still good addresses (although I
did check the one for Malt Advocate to be sure it was still valid). If you
are aware of other Brew Mags in Space please let me know. 

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:43:19 -0500
From: rtisdale at entomology.msstate.edu (Bob Tisdale)
Subject: Recipe Help

I am planning to make a scottish 90schilling ale from extract and I have a
couple of questions about the addition of speciality grains  for color and
falvor.  I have seen several recipes using chocolate and roasted barley and
they all use different amounts.  The style description at the Brewery's
Library states that it should have a slight roast flavor and a deep ruby
red color.  My question is, how much of each should I use of each for a 5
gallon batch?



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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:19:22 -0500
From: Andrew Stavrolakis <andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu>
Subject: Blow off cause


Hi all - Given a particular beer, what characteristics lead to excessive
blow off during primary fermentation?  I brewed two different beers, one a
export type stout, one a strong ale. The stout had very little kreusen; the
strong ale practically blew the top off the fermenter.  I ended up removing
even the blow off tube and letting the foam spill out (I guess this is "open
fermentation") 

Details:

Stout: 70% Marris Otter Pale    Strong: 87% M-O pale
       15% Crystal 200L                  7% Carapils
       7.5% Roasted barley               3% Chocolate 
       7.5% Black Patent                 3% Peated  
       Specialty malt all Hugh Baird, I think
       OG= 1.074 FG=1.020       OG: 1.078, still fermenting

Single infusion for both 65C/150F for 1.5 hours.

Yeast for both was dry Danstar Nottingham, pitching rate was the same, temp
= 21C/70F, both beers primary fermenter was a plastic bucket with 20%
headspace. 

In the future, how can I know what beer will ferment violently so that I can
plan accordingly?  In my situation I often have to leave newly brewed beer
unattended for long periods; so I'd like to know how to set up the primary
before I leave.

BTW, these were 1 gallon test batches; stout total grain = 4 lbs, strong =
3.7 lbs.
I know my efficiency is lousy; In this "mini mash" setup my sparging is too
fast.

Thanks for the help,

Andrew. 
************************************************************
Andrew J. Stavrolakis
Controller
LASPAU: Academic and Professional Programs for the Americas
25 Mount Auburn Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
phone:617-495-0543
fax:  617-495-8990
email:Andrew_Stavrolakis at harvard.edu
http://www.laspau.harvard.edu


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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:35:52 -0700
From: ritter at bitterroot.net (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
Subject: re: Airlocks

Mike Spinelli writes:

>What I now do is simply place a double folded piece of
>aluminum foil right over the carboy mouth.  Form it snugly
>over the edges and forget about.  Obviously, the C02 can
>escape since I've yet to have a problem with the foil blowing
>off.

I have been using the same foil airlock technique when I brew lagers. I
place one layer of sanitized foil on my primary fermenter right after
pitching the yeast. When fermentation activity picks up, I replace the foil
with a conventional airlock. I started doing it because of a few instances
of "airlock suck-back" caused by lager yeast's longer lag times and cooler
fermentation temps.


Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery - Hamilton, Montana



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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:19:23 -0800
From: Gary_Sandler at themoneystore.com
Subject: Queen of Beer Competition Results


The Queen of Beer competition was held this last Saturday, October 25th, at
Elk Grove Brewing Co. in Elk Grove, CA.  This annual competition is open
exclusively to women homebrewers, regardless of where they live.

The 1997 Queen of Beer is Nancy Sampson of Orlando, Florida.  Her "Predator
Pale Ale" took the Best of Show honors.  Congratulations, Nancy!  The
results have been tabulated and are listed at our website at
http://haze.innercite.com.  In this, our fourth year, we had the largest
number of entries ever!

I asked one of the Best of Show judges for their opinion of the
quality/caliber of beer(s) submitted for this competition and the reply was
"Overall, I think you had a better quality of entries than I?ve judged in
1st round Nationals or State Fair, and maybe the best overall quality of
any competition I?ve judged at."  You go girl!!!

Thank you all for your entries and making this competition possible.
Remember, it's not to early to start brewing for next year!.

Nora Keller-Seeley
Queen of Beer Competition Organizer



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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:36:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Wort-scorchin' caramel crisis (Wort caramelization)

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> HOMEBREW Digest #2545               Fri 31 October 1997

> From: S&R Moed <bina at idirect.com>
> Subject: Wort caramelization?
 ...
> Any time I have boiled a wort from extract I always end up with a 
> bitter/sweet taste which I attribute to caramelization. ...  I have been 
> boiling 4 pounds of extract in 2.5 gallons of water, then topping up to 5
> gallons.

Brewers sometimes scorch wort, although seldom badly enough to toss
the beer.  You may be very sensitive to the taste.  Thin enamel pots
are especially prone to this, but can be used with just a little care.
Many of us (including me) use enamel pots on electric stoves.

Once you've fixed the burning problem, you should get significant
benefits in clarity and flavor from boiling your wort, so I strongly
recommend you try again with these suggestions.

There are several suspects here.  Most likely, you need to raise your
pot.  Also, let's check your exact procedures.  Finally, I'll answer
your specific questions.

RAISING YOUR POT

With a thin pot sitting on the element, you have in effect a chunk of
red-hot iron touching your wort.  The easiest fix is to raise the pot
a bit off the element -- maybe 1/8 to 1/4 inch.  With the pot lifted,
you are using radiant heat to warm the entire bottom layer of the pot.

Some people get a "heat tamer" at a hardware store -- sounds good to
me, but I have yet to find one.  Some use an unvarnished wire hanger
bent into a "V" shape to sit between the pot and the element.  Or you
can rest the pot on supports spaced around the element.  I do this
with mason jar rings, but my elements stick up above the stove top --
if yours are flush or recessed, use something shorter.

You get less heat this way, since you aren't getting direct heat
conduction from the element to the pot.  Most stoves will still
have plenty of capacity for a partial boil.

Another benefit is that home stove elements are NOT designed to be
run at top power for over an hour without air flow drawing off heat.
They are designed for smaller pans and shorter cooking times.  Most
canning pots overlap the element enough to close off air flow.  So,
raising the pot will reduce caramelization AND extend the life of
your element.

BOILING PROCEDURE

Let's check your procedure.  Do you:
 - Mix extract into tap water, then heat
or
 - Bring water to a boil, add extract while boiling

Either of these can burn some of the malt extract, because you get a
thick layer on the bottom being directly heated.  You want lots of
water in there to moderate the heating of the extract, with
convection currents sweeping the extract away from the heat source
before it can scorch.

The best procedure with extract is:
1) Bring water to a boil (de-oxygenates it, and heats it so the
   extract will mix well).
2) Remove from heat (or turn off burner and wait 10-15 seconds
   for the element to cool).
3) Add extract to water.
4) Stir thoroughly until ALL the extract is dissolved, and there
   is NO layer on the bottom.
5) Return to heat and bring back to a boil.

If this describes your current procedure, I suppose you might be
using too much heat (this would indicate you have one heck of a
powerful electric stove).

You want a nice rolling boil, where the fluid is stirring itself
nicely -- but don't dump in more heat than it takes to sustain that
level of boil.

SPECIFIC QUESTIONS

You asked:

> 1.Could I be scorching the wort

Yes, see above.

> 2. Should I use a heavier pot?  

That would help, but raising it off direct contact with the element
should give adequate results.  Even if you get a heavier pot, raise
it off the element.

> 3. Could it be because the wort is to concentrated?

Going to full boil would also help.  I use a 33 quart enamel pot,
which I got from Wal-Mart (sold as a tamale pot).  I put this over
two elements -- it doesn't quite cover them, which is good, and I
get most of the heat from both of them.

> 4. should I go for a gentle boil?

NO.  You need a "rolling" boil -- with convection currents firmly
stirring the wort.  If it's just bubbling, the wort won't "roll" away
from the heat source, and you may get a static layer on the bottom
being directly heated -- creating MORE caramelization.

> 5.Should I use a propane burner?

I doubt it would help, although it might heat the bottom a tad more
evenly.  Most people go to propane burners to get more heat, for
faster or larger-quantity boils.

> 6. Do any of you have caramelization problems?

No one else in the history of brewing.  I made all this up.  :-)

> If it's not caramelization what could it be?
 ...
> Rob Moed 
> Oakville, Ontario, Canada.

The Evil Beer-Spoiling Sasquatch may be sneaking into your kitchen
and dropping his cigar ashes into your pot.  Or, French-crazed Quebec
separatists may be slipping Essence of Remembered Love into your
city's water supply, leaving a bitter/sweet flavor.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:52:53 -0500
From: mjk <knoroa at rbnet.com>
Subject: Adequate Ventilation

New to HBD, 1st Post. Great stuff every day.

Question about Ventilation:  Having gone all grain, I've been banished
to the unheated, detached garage for all brewing activities and am
concerned about maintaining enough ventilation for my propane burner. 
Considered solutions are: (1) do all "burning" outside and worry about
the hot-liquid-transportation factors, (2) brew with the garage door
wide open and blow a window fan for ventilation and wear an extra pair
of socks and sweatshirt, (3) brew with garage door partially open for
ventilation and install a flue extending through the apex of roof
(window fan as well) or (4) some contrived combination of the previous.

Assuming the obvious safety precautions are taken (i.e. no gas cans, no
oily rags near burner, etc.) what amount of ventilation would be
prudent?

Fermentation & Racking will be done in basement of house.

Opinions appreciated. 

TIA.

I'll have to work on my catchy & thoughtful trademark slogan...

Mark K.

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:52:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Save that moldy beer!

I promised earlier this year to post the info from rec.crafts.brewing
on saving beer that has started to mold in the fermenter.  This isn't
my knowledge, it comes from Rick Hawkins at IA State.

Note first that people often ask on r.c.b if their beer is molding,
and it turns out to be islands of very tight foam, not mold at all.
If you DO have mold, here are Rick's directions:

- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --
[This is combined from two messages by Rick Hawkins]
Most batches with surface mold can be saved; but time is critical.
By the time they drop spores, it is too late.

Most surface mold is aerobic; it requires oxygen to grow.  It gets some
when you first put the wort in the fermenter, and a little more when you
rack to the secondary.  If you have a lot of headspace in the secondary
(a couple of gallongs), they get out of control fast.

- -- - - - --

An earlier version of these instructions have accounted for about 200
gallons saved--about half of those gallons were mine :)

1) act quickly.  time is your enemey.

2) it is usally possible to salvage most of your beer if it catches
mold.  The point of no return is when the "floaters" drop "danglers",
which is the mold "spooring".  Prior to this, the mold is (mostly)
localized at the top. Once they spoor, it's all over, and the sewer
rats have a good night.

3) oxygen is your enemy.  Most mold that bother homebrewers can
grow only slowly without it, and grow rapidly with it.

4) if possible, keg.  after sanitizing the keg, pressurize to 40psi
or so, let set a few minutes, and release pressure through the safety
valve or the gas line.  Repeat twice.  Rack your beer into it.  If
possible, siphon directly into the "beer out line" to minimize
splashing, etc., and allow you to leave the keg sealed (you will need to
release pressure frequently while siphoning.

5) if you can't keg, sanitize your bottles and prime each bottle
rather than the batch (to avoid stirring and letting in more o2).  Do
not use a bottling bucket; this is one more chance to get o2.  this is
more important than clarity & sediment--do you want to be able to drink
it, or do you want to look at it?  leave minimal head space at the top
of each bottle (again, minimizing o2).

6) when transferring, kiss off about the top 2" of your beer.
While this is painful, it's better to write this stuff off than to risk
getting the mold into the bottles.

7) if at all appropriate to the style, dry hop.  Either an ounce or
two in the keg in a bag, with weights to pull it down, or a 1/4" or so
or a whole flower in a 22oz bottle (half this for 12 oz).  This is a
*heavy* dryhopping rate; scale back for stlyes that can't handle it.
Dryhopping does two things:  1)  some preservative effect, 2) masks mild
off-flavors. (dry-hopping a keg can also give you a few more days if you
get lactic; otherwise, there's nothing to be done for this plague.

8) drink it quickly; while you have alleveiated the problem enough
to save the batch, you have not eliminated it

9) good luck.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 12:54:47 CST
From: jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Wyeast 1968

Mike Rose wanted to know about the necessity for aerating and agitating wort
pitched with Wyeast 1968.

I use 1968 more than all the other yeasts combined and I never agitate.  I
do aerate or oxygenate very well at the start but not during fermentation.
I pitch fairly large starters that have been stepped up about three times
or reuse yeast from the previous batch.  I usually brew three batches in
succession so I can easily reuse the yeast.  I merely siphon off the completed
beer and pour the chilled new wort into the fermenter onto the sediment.
I get 75% apparent attenuation with no rousing or oxygenation after the initial
oxygenation.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at imtn.dsccc.com

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:57:09 -0600
From: "MICHAEL L. TEED" <MS08653 at msbg.med.ge.com>
Subject: Looking for burners

 .int homebrew at hbd.org

 Greetings folks, been spending my last few months building my rims system
 and am looking for a few items to complete my system. Hope some of you can
 help me locate a few things. I need a perforated false bottom that wont
 break the bank ( the rims already has.. ) to replace or cover the slotted
 manifold I am currently planning on using. The hole in the top of the
 mashtun is 12" round, so I need one that folds or can be cut and made
 to do so, or any ideas from the experienced. Will a slotted tubing manifold
 work well with a perforated metal 'cover' over the top of it?

 Since I already have a framework, I dont need the support of a complete
 cajun style cooker, all I need is a burner. Already have an lp regulator
 and such. Is there a source for just burners or a way to build one from
 readily available parts? I have built one burner from a water heater
 burner but dont feel it will work well for the boilpot, however
 it should work fine for heating the mashtun ( the flame tends to be
 closer to the edge of the pot than the center due to the diameter of
 the burner plate ).

 Any URLs to rims systems would also be appreciated. If I get a good
 supply I will compile and send up to the group if interested. Hoping to
 see my system up and running in the next couple weeks.

 Question on mills... Is there an advantage to getting the adjustable
 maltmill in regards to crushing unmalted wheat or other hard as nails
 grains? Using my corona I would start at a larger setting and do
 3 or so passes progressively dropping the plate spacing. Or am I
 better off using the corona for the 'grinding' and a fixed mm for crushing
 malt? I thought for the difference in price that I would sell the corona
 and get an adjustable mm and be happier? Or would I? Thanks...

 Mike Teed  ms08653 at msbg.med.ge.com


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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:10:12 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Re:  Wyeast 1968 and rousing/aerating / Deschutes Yeast?

     Hi all,
     
     Mike has read that Wyeast 1968 (London ESB) requires 
     agitation/aeration during the fermentation in order to achieve proper 
     attenuation.  He wonders about aerating it periodically until 
     fermentation lock activity peaks.
     
     I just finished up a batch of ESB brewed with 1968.  I spoke with a 
     couple of people (you know who you are) about the merits/detriments of 
     aerating once fermentation was going.  In my opinion, aerating the 
     ferment is probably a bad idea; it may elevate the diacetyl levels, 
     but it will also hurt the shelf life of the beer.  If you are planning 
     on cask conditioning and drinking it quickly, that may be fine.  If 
     you are planning on having the beer around a little while, you may be 
     upset by the cardboard notes that it will acquire after a short time.
     
     I don't think that oxygenating for 1 min. per hour until you see 
     airlock activity is a good idea, either.  You may actually achieve too 
     much yeast growth, and an increase in off flavors, by supplying the 
     yeast with that much oxygen.
     
     I found that simply pitching the yeast and oxygenating in the normal 
     fashion (45 sec. blast for 4.5 gal. of wort) worked fine.  I swirled 
     the carboy a couple of times during the fermentation to ensure that 
     the yeast stayed in suspension.  That may not have been necessary (I 
     didn't check the gravity during fermentation).  By keeping the carboy 
     closed during the swirling oxygen is excluded from the ferment.
     
     I should say that the beer is disappointingly low in diacetyl.  I 
     guess if I had let the yeast stay at the bottom, I would have gotten 
     more, but attenuation may have suffered.  I'll have to try it again...
     
     A related question:
     
     The ESB I spoke of was split into different fermenters.  One batch was 
     fermented with Wyeast 1968, the other with yeast cultured from 
     Deschutes Obsidian Stout.  They were fermented under the same 
     conditions.  The resulting beers are damn similar, and the 
     fermentations behaved alike, too.
     
     Does Deschutes yeast = Wyeast 1968?  Any knowledgeable opinions?
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:37:29 -0500
From: "Jeff Johnson" <jdj at mindspring.com>
Subject: Wit/Fruit Wheat Double Brew

Hi all,

My wife has been nagging me for  a Georgia Peach Wheat beer for some time
now.  I also would like to make a Belgian Wit.  Here's what I'm gonna do:

I plan on brewing a 10 gallon batch in my 1/2 bbl brewery using the recipe
below.  I'll then split the 10 gal into two 5 gal batches.

Recipe:
9 lb 2-row lager malt
6 lb wheat malt
3 lb flaked wheat
2 lb flaked oats

Mash in at 122 deg F and hold for 20 min.  Raise temp to 135 deg F and hold
for 20 min.  Raise temp to 153 and hold for 75 min.  Mash out at 170 deg
and sparge to collect 12 gal of sweet wort.

Boil for 75 min using 15 IBU's of Tettnang and Hallertaur hops, and about 1
oz Tettnang finishing hops.

In one of the 5 gal splits I'll ferment with Wyeast 3944 Belgian White
yeast and at kegging time I'll add a "tea" made from 1oz. Curacao Orange
peels and 1.5 TBLSP coriander seeds.

In the other 5 gal split I'll ferment with Wyeast 1338 European Ale yeast
(hopefully to leave some residual sweetness) and keg with 4oz of Peach
Fruit extract.

Granted the Wit will not truly be to style, but it should be close
(maybe??).

What do ya'll (using my Georgia accent) think?

Jeff Johnson
Owner, Operator, and Chief Carboy Washer
Blue Fish Nano-Brewery

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 17:25:50 -0500
From: Tim Fields <tfields at his.com>
Subject: mash temps and extraction efficiency

Happy Halloween!

I've recently brewed 2 barleywines (allgrain), and my extraction rates 
were well below normal.  I am wondering whether the mash regime has 
anything to do with it, or whether I just did a poor job. I average 76% 
efficiency, but these batches came in at 61-62%.  Here are the numbers - 
I'd appreciate any guidance HBDland can offer.  The base malt was 
primarily marris otter crisp.  both 3 gal batches.

batch 1: 11 lbs 2 row, 11 oz caravienne, 7 oz munich
I may not have hit these temps exactly - didnt keep very good notes. 
also, my thermometer broke, so I used a metal one of onknown accuracy. 
however, results for the 2 batches (second with a great thermometer) were 
nearly identical. lauter went fine, probably 1-1.5 hrs.
l
25 minutes  at  144F
60 mins  at  155
15 mins  at  168

batch 2: 11 lbs 2 row, 11 oz caravienne, 7 oz munich
Here is how the (shagrin) mash went:
overshot a target beta glucanase rest temp of 100 (probably not needed, 
but I hoped to reduce some teltale haze and increase the extraction rate 
(hah)).  i hit 107. stired for 20-25 mins to lower the temp, ended up at 
104.
lauter stuck allot (i allowed the grain bed temp to fall too low i 
think), nearly 2 hrs total.

overshot a target beta amylase rest of 144 as well. hit 147. 5 mins to 
stir/cool to 145, then 20 mins rest.

raised to 154, 30 mins rest (temp dropped to 149)
raised to 154, 30 min rest. dropped to 150-151
raise to 168, restt for 15 mins.

The only good thing about the lower-than-target OG is that it is hoppier 
:-)

 -Tim

   Tim Fields ... Fairfax, VA
   tfields at his.com


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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:22:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: DRAT!  Unmalted *WHEAT* in Witbiers.

Oops... Witbiers are made with unmalted *WHEAT* not unmalted barley
as I accidentally posted.  I need more sleep!  Sorry about that.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:43:25 -0500
From: Jim English <jimebob at mindspring.com>
Subject: Brewpot dilemna

The bottom line:  Should I buy an 8 gallon enameled canning pot to take the
plunge to all grain and fake all the other accoutrements?

I can't shake loose the dough required for Volrath nirvana just yet and the
publicans are pretty good at keeping track of their empty Sankeys,
knowhatImean?  Not that I would take one without permission.

I can get the aforementioned 8-gallon job for about US$35 and am sorely
tempted in the short run.

Do they hold up for a year or two on top of 100,000 BTU's of propane?

Can you drill them without major chipping to add a spigot?

Are they too thin?  They seem to be to me.

Even if I don't go to all-grain right away, I do want to boil the whole wort.

Thanx

Daily lurker, rare poster:  JRE

"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth
and remove all doubt."
                        Plato (I think)


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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:14:56 -0700
From: chudson at thor.unm.edu
Subject: New brewer is born.




Greetings fellow brewers, A new brewer joins the ranks.
Jacob Elliot Hudson was born today at 1127 MST.Weighing in at 7 lbs 15
oz.(For you metric folks 3.6 kg). ( at 33 cm long)
Raise your glasses and join me in a toast to my new son!

Chuck, Christine and Jacob Hudson



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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 00:19:32 -0800
From: Chasman <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: Wort Stability Tests

In an effort to throw another log on the fire that is this undying thread
on pitching rates....

What you really need to be concerned with is your wort stability. If you
have bad wort stability then maybe you *should* be worried about 12 hour
lag times or even 6 hour lag times. Hell pitch a gallon of yeast, that'll
get things going quickly and cause those folks getting "long" lag times of
4-6 hours to hang their heads in shame. 

Before everyone sounds off about how bad 12 or even 24 hour lag times are,
let me ask ALL of you: Have you ever done a wort stability test?

Yeah...didn't think so.

I have. In my brewery, oxygenated, unpitched wort has gone four days
without ANY off flavors or fermentive activity when incubated at 80-90F.
That being the case, I have no concern for long lag times because they
*will not* be the cause of off flavors.

I suggest periodically doing WST to ensure that your sanitation practices
are up to snuff. This, if nothing else should allow you to *relax* about
those "long" 12 hour lag times.

C--

Charles Hudak
cwhudak at adnc.com

"If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs."
- --David Daye



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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:05:24 -0800
From: "Michael Kowalczyk" <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: Re: Coffee Stout

Been drinking these bottles recently.  Turned out very well. Very slight
coffee taste, although it could be more because I used a lot of Roast barley
and the Starbucks taste is very close to roast barley.

Nice way to add coffee.
- ----------
> From: Michael Kowalczyk <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
> To: homebrew at hbd.org
> Subject: Coffee Stout
> Date: Thursday, October 16, 1997 9:04 PM
> 
> Tonight I bottled a stout and did the following:
> 1. Used a French Coffee Press and made 4 cups of coffee with 12 scoops of
> Starbucks coffee.
> 2. Let the boiling water sit in the coffee press for 30 minutes.
> 3. Filtered through a coffee filter ( the press lets gunk through)
> 4. Boiled and primed as usual.
> 
> I'll let you know in 3 weeks what it tastes like, but it tasted great going
> in the bottle.
> 
> Got the idea from the HBD archives... I love this sport!
> 
> - Mike from Chicago.

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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 09:52:50 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Many niches in the HB world

I don't think the  term "lazy" applies anywhere in homebrewing. 
Obviously homebrewing's lots of work and complication in any person's
life.  Careless I may be in brewing techniques, but not lazy.

Homebrewing amazes me in that there are so so many niches for our artful
ness and creative energies.  Some brewers are mechanical engineering
wizards with RIMS etc while others have beautiful, creative labels. 
Some brew and brew old favorite recipes while others explore the outer
reaches of ingredients and historical practices.

Some have serving excellence with multi-tap arrangements in atmospheric
pub-like environments served by St. Pauli girl wife/SO lookalikes while
others craft beers artfully within existing beer style.  Others practice
the culinary arts to match beer and gormet foods.  Some choose to be
very social and share their brews with many guests.

Some yeast ranch and or grow hops while others answer newbie questions
on the HBD.  Some search the world for the highest quality and freshest
ingredients while other scrub bottles and fill and cap.

There are many priorities to choose between.

Am I lazy if some of the above are not emphasized in my brewing regimen?
Theres lots of details and much to respect.  St Arnou has a mansion with
many rooms but none are for the lazy.

Jim booth, lansing mi


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Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:26:21 -0400
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (AJ)
Subject: water analysis

John Kostelac asked about his water. Ordinarily I'd e-mail but I thought
the barium level was interesting:

>Aluminum                .020 mg/l
>Barium (the highest)    .228 mg/l
>Iron                    .080 mg/l
>Nickel                  .020 mg/l

The only two on that list of real concern are the barium and iron. Barium
is pretty nasty stuff but this level is well below the EPA limit for
drinking water of 1 mg/L (though it is a bit over twice the EEC limit of
0.1 mg/L).

The iron is just below the 0.1 mg/L taste threshold which is the most
brewers like to see.

On to the more conventional stuff:
>Constituent             Units are mg/l unless otherwise noted

>Calcium                         33
>Magnesium                        5

These represent moderate levels of hardness (82.5 mg/L as CaCO3 calcium
hardness and 20.6 mg/L as CaCO3 magnesium hardness for a total of 103
mg/L). Unfortunately, it's not very much at all relative to the reported
alkalinity. Kohlbach's residual alkalinity is about 230 mg/L for this
sample. Light colored beers brewed with this water will not reach
appropriate mash pH. Acidification, calcium supplementation or addition of
dark malts to the grist will be required.

>Chloride                        62
>Sodium                          108

Both high. The water (and beer) might taste salty. This is not a problem
for many ales, however. One suspects that this water comes from a source
adjacent to natural halite deposits OR that it is the results of
measurements taken during the winter when salt is being applied to
roadways.

>Fluoride                        0.5

Not a problem at this level. Well below the EPA limit of 4 mg/L.

>Nitrate (as N)                  0.11

Well below the EPA limit of 10 mg/L and not high enough to worry about
bacterial reduction to yeast poisoning nitrite.

>Sulfate                         2

Very low. It's this low level of sulfate that allows the barium to be as
high as it is. Sulfate will have to be augmented to lend authentic hops
character to any ales. Gypsum is the usual choice and this has the
additional benefit of increasing the calcium. Bumping the sulfate up an
order of magnitude (20 mg/L) or 2 (200 mg/L) should lower the barium (by
precipitating barium sulfate) by at least enough to get the level below the
EEC limit and perhaps a good deal more.

>Total Hardness/CACO3            102

See above.

>pH                              7.9 (no unit, of course)

Normal for a highly carbonate water

>Dil. Conduct(UMHOS/CM)  690 (no unit)

umhos/cm (ususally listed as uSiemens/cm) is the unit. The TDS is about
half this number

>Tot. Alka. as CACO3             256

This is a lot of alkalinity. As we noted, the residual alkalinity is nearly
this large because of the small amounts of calcium and magnesium. The
saturation pH of this water is about 7.42 which, as it is less than the pH,
means that the water is likely to precipitate calcium carbonate if boiled
thus reducing this alkalinity somewhat but only to the extent of the
calcium. The maxiumum it could lose would be 82 ppm as CaCO3 (and in fact
it would probably lose less). Suplementation of the calcium with gypsum
would then definitely be required. Calcium chloride could not be used as
the chloride level is already high.

>Bicarbonate                     312

61*(Alkalinity/50) = 312 i.e. the alkalinity is mostly from bicarbonate. In
fact it is a bit suspicious that the reported number came out exactly 312.
The actual bicarbonate number will be a little less than this at pH 7.9.

>Carbonate                       0

At pH 7.9 the amount of carbonate is unappreciable

>Dissolved Solids                367

Note that this is about half the conductivity.

>P. Alkalinity / CACO3           0

P alkalinity is the amount of acid required to LOWER pH to 8.3 If the pH is
less than 8.3 to start with the P alkalinity is, obviously, 0.

This water isn't too bad for brewing as long as you stick to ales and
supplement the sulfate. It's going to take some fiddling to do lagers (and
some ales such as wheat beers) sucessfully though. The main problem is in
the high alkalinity relative to the calcium with secondary problems being
in the high sodium and chloride levels.

Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 10:11:13 -0600
From: Eric Pendergrass <eap at netdoor.com>
Subject: When to transfer to secondary?

Greetings,

I've been reading the HBD on and off for about 3 years, and I have some
questions about a lager I'm brewing.  It's an extract bohemian pilsner using
Wyeast 2278.  It has been fermenting at the same rate (about 4 bubbles/min.
at 46 degrees F) in my fridge for 7 days, and is past "high krausen".  I
feel like this rate is healthy for such a low temperature, and considering I
used a large starter (6 hr lag time).  I plan to lager at 35 F for several
weeks once fermentation stops.

Two concerns I have regard oxidation and diacetyl/off-flavor reduction.
First, would it be better to go ahead and rack to the secondary while a
significant amount of CO2 is still being produced (in order that a CO2
blanket would more quickly form over the racked beer in the secondary,
preventing oxidation)?

Second, by racking the beer off the flocculated yeast this early would I
reduce the capacity of the remaining yeast to complete fermentation and
subsequent lagering?  Isn't off flavor reduction a function of the number of
yeast present during conditioning, to a certain extent?  When should I rack
this beer if it's still actively fermenting?

On a related note, I have noticed a rotten egg smell in my fridge, and I
know this is oft encountered during lager fermentation.  Is there anything I
should or shouldn't do in order to ensure it does not end up in the final
product?
Eric Pendergrass
eap at netdoor.com


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Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:22:46 -0500
From: "Michael Gerholdt" <gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu>
Subject: Extracting pleasure

Thomas Lowry considers our conversation about the possible qualitative
differences between brewing from previously extracted sugars and from
freshly extracted sugars "bickering" and "fighting among family members."

I certainly don't see it that way, and don't consider expressing my opinion
to be tatamount to 'selling us a new religion.'

Because I know how people tend to react and over-react to the written word,
I was pretty careful (or so I thought) in how I stated my opinion. But
obviously it was not careful enough. Most homebrewers are extract brewers.
I don't consider them lazy. I know that my all grain beers taste better
than my extract beers. I have made extract beers recently with a friend
who's learning, and I certainly didn't try to make worse beer just because
it was extract. It just doesn't taste as good, IMHO.

Thomas, your comments here: 

"On the other hand Michael, if mashing and then brewing with all grain
brings you to the point that you say 'to consider making an extract beer
with its savings in time and effort would seem like something of a luxury -
a self-indulgence.', then I say, it's time you take a vacation."

are unwarranted. I make all grain beer because I want to. Making extract
beer is not what I want to do. I think you should examine your motives when
you start telling people to take vacations. My post was a considered and
honest opinion. Your comments above are inflammatory. Stick it in your
lauter tun, buddy! <g>

(Sorry, forgot  -  you don't have one! Well, be creative . . .  <g>)

LISTEN with a friendly ear:

I think it takes some _very_ fresh ingredients, which are not always easy
to come by, to make an extract beer that can stand up to an all grain beer.
With properly stored grain, I have fresh ingredients on hand at all times.
It does take longer to brew, but I don't have to worry about freshness
problems.

Also, the ability to nuance a recipe is so much easier with grain. A pound
of Munich, half a pound of wheat, a quarter pound of Special B - compiling
a grain bill with some malt complexity is utter simplicity. To do this with
extracts is possible (almost), but it is expensive; and freshness is even
more of a factor when you are dealing with specialty grain extracts than
when dealing with base malts.

I don't think it is the skill of the brewer as much as these considerations
which make the difference in quality between most extract based brews and
all grain brews.

AND That's about all I have to say about the difference between brewing
with commercially extracted and condensed sugars, rehydrated (oh yes they
are, Thomas, by the homebrewer), and brewing with freshly extracted sugars
from the grain.

Grant Knechtel quotes me before saying : 

"To criticize anyone for omitting a step is a little hypocritical -
obviously few of us have the time and space to *completely* make our own
beer."

I'd ask you, Grant, to re-read my post and point out anything in it that
could be construed as a criticism of anybody.

It just gets silly, trying to have a normal conversation by written word,
sometimes!

Thomas ends his post with:  

"What happened to 'relax, don't worry, have.......'?"

Shouldn't that be:

'Relax, Don't Worry, Have an All Grain?' 

(for those who can't read between the lines, here's an explicit <G> for
you.)

Enjoy the brew!

Michael Gerholdt

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---