---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Charles Papazian (Vernon R Land)
  water analyses// airlock (smurman)
  Re: How many carboys ("Mark S. Johnston")
  Lima Ohio Club Startup (John Rezabek)
  re: E. coli in pH and alcohol... ("Michel J. Brown")
  re:Steinbier Rock Temp ("Michel J. Brown")
  Yeast starter pH? (David Muzidal)
  Copper and oxygenated wort (Simon Charlton)
  Magnetic Stir Plate (Kyle Druey)
  Silicon Sealants ("Dodge, Christopher")
  http://www.beertax.org.uk (breWorld)
  Canning kettle and counter-flow wort chiller ("Frank Klaassen")
  Hopping and two kettles ("Frank Klaassen")
  Mashing Equations ("Frank Klaassen")
  Re: Wort stability/sanitation ("P. Edwards")
  E. coli in pH and alcohol (Dave Whitman)
  Re:yeast & artists (Jim Wallace)
  reusing yeast in carboy (Mark Tumarkin)
  Transferring lager to secondary (David S Draper)
  Re:  Airlock design / Yeast pitching (George De Piro)
  Wort Stability Test (Tom_Williams)
  Hoegaarden yeast question (Jeff)
  carboy collectors anonymous! ("Paul A. Baker")
  Agave Brew (Don H Van Valkenburg)
  Yeast Problems (Jim Daley)
  A no rinse sanitizer? (Jim Daley)
  Traquair House Ale - Grain Bill Question (Charles Burns)
  Re: Wort stability test and lag times (George De Piro)
  full boil, ("David R. Burley")
  Wort stability test; taking offense at taking offense (Samuel Mize)


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Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:07:48 -0500
From: vland1 at juno.com (Vernon R Land)
Subject: Charles Papazian

Everyone quotes Charles Papazian, is he still alive?  

Also, I use the 5 gallon plastic bucket lautertun described in his book
and it seems to work great.  I have not seen any discussion on this type
of lautertun here and was wondering if I am the only one using it?  It
seems to lauter fairly fast, although, the first batch of brew I made
with it came out great.  The runnings weren't clear, but who cares, the
beer tasted fine and I had acceptable (to me) gravities.  

Vern

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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 13:29:06 -0800
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: water analyses// airlock


I see folks post their water numbers from time-to-time, and I've
also gotten mine from the local water dude, but it's been my
opinion that these things aren't really worth the paper they're
printed on.  Some of the more water-knowledgable folks please
comment here.

My feeling is that seasonal variations in the water supply make the
actual content unreliable.  What the public works folks give you is an
average, but I know that here in the S.F. Bay area we can get much
different minerals and what-not in our water depending on how much
snowmelt we're getting, if it's mid-summer, etc.  Last winter for
example we had some flooding so the water folks had to crank their
treatment plants up, but even then it wasn't enough.  We ended up with
a lot of chloride compounds and a lot of other stuff for a month or
so.  Killed two of my fish before I noticed what was going on.

When I bother to treat my water, I pre-boil it and decant off.  I
figure then I'm probably starting from a more consistent base.  So
what do the DPW staffers think?  Is there enough variation in water
supplies to make a detailed analysis inaccurate?

//

Regarding the long-term storage airlock.  It sounds like what you want
to do is purge it with CO2, and then seal it up as tight as you can.
Some type of heavy-duty plastic and a tight rubberband would probably
be enough.  The amount of CO2 in the headspace of a carboy prolly
wouldn't be enough to lead to a "gassy" brew.  The other thing that
comes to mind is somehow evacuating the headspace, but that would
probably be difficult to maintain long-term.

SM


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Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:44:44 -0500
From: "Mark S. Johnston" <msjohnst at talon.net>
Subject: Re: How many carboys

Paul Baker asks how many carboys people have/use/need.

	I have 3 usable 5 gallon carboys, a 7 gallon one, two 3 gallon, and a 13
gallon. I also have two 5 gallon bottles that were left in front of a
neighbor's house for trash pickup. I tried to clean them up, but they were
scratched and stained beyond salvage. One of them is collecting spare
change for the kids' college fund.
- -- 
"If a man is not a liberal at eighteen, he has no heart. If he is not a
conservative by the time he is thirty, he has no mind."  - Winston
Churchill


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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 20:44:32 -0500
From: John Rezabek <rezabeks at alpha.wcoil.com>
Subject: Lima Ohio Club Startup

We have begun a homebrew club in the Lima, Ohio area (USA). If this
interests you please drop me a line for details.

This month we plan to meet on November 17 (Monday) at the new Meyer
Brewing Company in nearby Delphos, Ohio. Brewer / president John Meyer
has created a remarkable little 5-bbl system, and designed and built his
own bottling line.

Suppliers, if you have customers in our area (419 area code, 458xx zip)
we'd like to get word to them somehow.

Regards,
John Rezabek
rezabeks at alpha.wcoil.com

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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:58:05 -0800
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: E. coli in pH and alcohol...

>I conclude that E. coli will grow in solutions of under 4% EtOH,

Another good reason for a healthy ETOH amount ;^)

>that a solution of 5% EtOH will cause E. coli to become dormant

Thank goodness most of my beers are >5%!

>Anything over 6% actively kills E. coli cells. 

There, proof (at least one data point) that brews of moderate strength are
*good* for you. Seeing as how E. Coli are enteric bacteria, however, would
this only apply in the case of when you're making a "butt" beer ;^)

>If anybody has brewed good extract porters and would like to share their
expertise, >I'd appreciate it.

While I don't have the extract equivalent, I have a most excellant Brown
Porter recipe called "Entire Firkin Butt" Porter. KennyEddy at aol.com has
software at his web page http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy to convert from
grain to extract. TTYL, God Bless!


			    Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
        		              homemade at spiritone.com 
	           http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
	               "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                           "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                                       Big Man Brewing (R) 1996

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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 03:10:24 -0800
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re:Steinbier Rock Temp

>This temperature cannot be correct.  Graywackes will be more than 50%
>*molten* at 1200 C and atmospheric pressure. Either it is actually 1200 F
>(about 650C, much more reasonable)  or the number 1200 is a transcription
>error.

Dave, I have the utmost respect for your skills as a geologist (not my
forte however), but I did confirm the 1200'C rock temp, which I felt a bit
high myself. This was told to me by the brewers at Rauchenfels in Coburg,
Germany (my old home town), last time I was back there (1975?). Perhaps
they are using a different composition of graywacke then what you are
familiar with, or maybe they are just blowing methane ;^)

			    Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
        		              homemade at spiritone.com 
	           http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
	               "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                           "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                                       Big Man Brewing (R) 1996

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Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:27:13 -0600
From: David Muzidal <Dave.Muzidal at dssc.slg.eds.com>
Subject: Yeast starter pH?

Should I be concerned with the pH of my yeast starters?  I just made
a starter for a pale ale/IPA using Wyeast American Ale II as follows:

1 pint tap water
5 tablespoons light DME (Munton & Fison)
1/8 teaspoon yeast nutrient (first time I have used this)
Boiled for 15 minutes, cooled then pitched swollen Wyeast pack.

The pH of the wort before adding the yeast nutrient was around 6.
After adding the yeast nutrient the pH rose to about 7.  I was not
sure if adding gypsum to get the pH down would be a good idea, so
I left things as they were.  My water is high in bicarbonates and low
in calcium.  I have been having some problems with slow fermetations
and wonder if my water composition/pH has anything to do with it?
I am not sure what steps I should take to make my water suitable
for a lighter style of beer (pre-boil with gypsum, dilute with distilled
water or just use bottled water, etc.)

Any words of wisdom would be appreciated!


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:24:32 +1030
From: Simon Charlton <simon.charlton at unisa.edu.au>
Subject: Copper and oxygenated wort

Greetings Collective,
	Thanks to luck I may be able to get my hands on materials and
skilled people to build a copper fermentor, custom made to fit my newly
acquired beer fridge, all at a reasonable price. Basically a
rectangular-ish copper tank soldered together with silver solder. I
remember a recent post (last few months) about copper leeching into
acidic wort in the presence of oxygen, but could not find it again in
the archive. I was intending to oxygenate the wort in the copper tank
prior to fermentation, is this safe? 
	Any ideas about other materials to substitute, (from what I hear
SS plate is expensive, harder to cut and tricky to weld) I was intending
to use steam to sanitize so glass and plastics are out.



Cheers,

Simon Charlton <Simon.Charlton at UniSa.edu.au>

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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 23:27:52 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <kdldmd at lightspeed.net>
Subject: Magnetic Stir Plate

HBD Collective:

Does anyone have information or experience in using a magnetic stir plate 
when culturing yeast?  Brewers Resource offers one for $75 and claims 
that it can increase yeast cell count by 9 fold.  Check it out at the 
following URL:  http://www.brewtek.com/adv-labware.html.  Any comments?

Kyle Druey
brewing in Bakersfield, CA

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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 21:01:44 -0500
From: "Dodge, Christopher" <cdodge at ptc.com>
Subject: Silicon Sealants

Does anyone know if there is a food grade silicon sealant.  I use
general clear silicon sealer rated for kitchen and aquarium use to help
seal my plastic fitting to my picnic cooler mash tun.  I believe the
silicon is non-reacting to anything my mash could produce and I have
been using it for awhile now.  The mash does come in contact with the
silicon and I was wondering if this in OK or is there a food grade rated
product available.

Thanks
Chris


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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 07:09:10 +0000
From: breWorld <intray at breworld.com>
Subject: http://www.beertax.org.uk

Dear  Homebrewer

Apologies for the intrusion into the newsgroup on behalf of the Society of
Independent Brewers of  Great Britain. This is a one-off announcement, but
I hope everybody
appreciates the importance of the campaign and the implications it could
have on brewing in Britain.

Please find below details of the Campaign to reduce beertax in the UK. In
order to spread the word as quick as possible we ask everybody to forward
the message below to as many people as possible. Only a large number of
votes will make a impact - it is your campaign whether your are a member of
SIBA or not.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Beerlover

You are hopefully aware that the Society of Independent Brewers (SIBA) is
currently campaigning for a reduction of the beer tax on
http://www.beertax.org.uk

In order to make the necessary impact with the MP's who are currently
considering this issue we hope to get as many people as possible to pledge
their support on the "First Internet Beer Ballot".

Please look at the site, where you will find out the reasons behind SIBA's
campaign. We think the arguments are pretty conclusive. 

We hope that everybody who receives this message can forward it to 10
friends on email who should forward it also . This should very quickly
create a large number of people that are aware of the campaign and support
SIBA.

Important URL

http://www.beertax.org.uk

email mailto:phaydon at breworld.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:38:41 -0500
From: "Frank Klaassen" <klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Canning kettle and counter-flow wort chiller

"The bottom line:  Should I buy an 8 gallon enameled canning pot to take
the
plunge to all grain and fake all the other accoutrements?"

We've been brewing with extract for ten years or so. I was scared off by
the need for other equipment and by the fact that my impression was that it
was a LOT of trouble. Well its not.

We just started all-grain on a budget and committed our second batch to the
primary last night. Even our first batch in which we did almost everything
wrong without ANY of the proper equipment was better than our extract based
beer. So go all grain. But I would REALLY recommend reading a bunch of the
available net info on home-made contraptions for beer. I don't know if this
means we were "faking" it but they all surpassed my expectations.

The need for more boiling capacity led us to use my 24 litre stainless
steel stock pot along with the canning kettle. An interesting exercise. The
stainless steel pot, which has a thick bottom boiled quickly and
efficiently. The canning kettle (which I have happily used for ten years
figuring I had no options) took forever by comparison and it was difficult
to get a good boil going despite having it over two burners. We will
certainly invest in another 22L stainless steel pot, giving us enough
capacity for our five gallon batches. With all that extra time put in
mashing it will be nice to save the extra half hour to one hour lost with
inefficient heat conduction. The savings with a canning kettle may well be
eaten up in extra time, trouble, or additional equipment like the pizza
stone. (What a great idea though. I have been looking for an excuse to buy
one...)

Incidentally, thanks to all those who have posted info about counter-flow
wort chillers. I made a 25 foot one putting a valve on it to control the
flow so that the wort would have enough time in the chiller to efficiently
cool. I wanted to avoid the expense and trouble of dealing with two 40 foot
lengths of tubing. The thing worked like a charm. (I used a copper ball
valve figuring I could immerse the thing in boiling water to assure
sanitization if necessary.) What a joy not to have to sit around watching
the thermometer drop late into the evening! 

Now if I can just get the "powers that be" to sign that requisition for a
new kettle after spending my pin money on copper tubing, valves, etc...

______________________
Frank Klaassen
klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca

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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:43:16 -0500
From: "Frank Klaassen" <klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Hopping and two kettles

No dosh for one big kettle. I will be using two for some time for my boils.
On this batch I used a muslin bag for my hops and moved the thing back and
forth so that both boils got some. Perhaps this solves the problem of
whether to throw hops in both or just one of the kettles?
_______________________
Frank Klaassen
klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca

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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:11:39 -0500
From: "Frank Klaassen" <klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Mashing Equations 

I understand the calculation for figuring out the initial temperature of
water (Y) for the first step in a mash is

weight of water x (Y - final mash temp desired) = Weight of Malt x 0.3822 x
(final mash temp. desired - dry malt temp)

I don't see the need for decoction mashing at the moment as it seems a bit
of a hassle for a novice who is at this stage only doing ales. But I want
to do at least two-temperature mashes. Can any of the scientists in
residence give me the equation for calculating the amount of boiling water
to add to a given volume of mash to get a desired temperature? Or are these
posted somewhere that I have not been able to locate?

______________________
Frank Klaassen
klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca

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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 07:33:23 -0500
From: "P. Edwards" <pedwards at iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Wort stability/sanitation

Charles Hudak writes:

>Before everyone sounds off about how bad 12 or even 24 hour lag times are,
>let me ask ALL of you: Have you ever done a wort stability test?

>Yeah...didn't think so.

>I have. In my brewery, oxygenated, unpitched wort has gone four days
>without ANY off flavors or fermentive activity when incubated at 80-90F.
>That being the case, I have no concern for long lag times because they
>*will not* be the cause of off flavors.

I'm interested  of the details of how this test was conducted.  Was this 
five gallons of wort in a 6.5 gallon glass carboy or a 7 gallon plastic 
pail with room air above the wort?  If not, then maybe it's not 
representative of most HB set-ups, where cooled wort is exposed to a fair 
amount of room air either in the fermenter or on it's way into it. Unless 
people are working in filtered clean rooms, or have a closed system 
between kettle and fermenter, then the wort will be most likely exposed 
to enough airborne bacteria for potential harm.

Right now, my QA consists of occasionally putting a few samples of 
bottled beer back for 6-12 months or more and seeing if I get any 
gushers, off-flavors, etc. that would indicate bacterial activity (yeah, 
I know that's a little like cllosing the barn door after the cows 
escape). I've done some plates with both wort and finished beer in the 
past using HLP and came up clean, so I don't mess with it anymore. This 
isn't to say I've never made an infected beer.  I just haven't had that 
misfortune in many years, knock on wood.

Also, potential for bacterial contamination is only one area of concern 
in underpitched wort/long lag times, in my experience and from what I've 
read.  Increased levels of esters, esp ethyl acetate (the solventy ester) 
can be problematic in underpitched beers, especially with some strains of 
yeast.  I've noticed it especially wih some of the "abbey" beer yeasts.  
I think since most of these beers are high gravity brews, the problems of 
underpitching are exacerbated.

Excessive fruity esters can be problematic and cause a beer to out of 
balance, even if otherwise clean. 

Speaking of cleanliness, have any of you seen or tried "BioSentry" 
sanitizer.  I found this stuff at a farm store, and it's labelled as 
being for cleaning/sanitizing poultry houses, dairy plants, food 
processing equipment, hand rinsing, etc.  I don't have the exact 
proportions in front of me, but the stuff is a mixture of an Iodine 
complex and Phosphoric acid.  One ounce in five gallons gives 25 ppm of 
active iodine.  Sanitation contact time is 1-2 minutes with air dry, just 
like BTF.   

However, it can be used at "double strength" to help clean surfaces of 
grime, something BTF can't do. Also, if you're cleaning with Red Devil 
lye or another form of  NaOH, you're got the phos acid to neutralize it.  

I clean with All Free & Clear powdered dishwasher detergent, then follow 
with BioSentry. While I like how PBW works, it's kind of pricey in those 
small packets.

Best part: it's a lot cheaper than BTF which runs anywhere from $9-$14 a 
quart, depending on the sources I've seen. and cheaper than the phos acid 
mix from Five Star.  My local HB shop sells BioSentry for $22 a gallon.  
You may find it a bit cheaper if you see it in a farm store, if you have 
one nearby. 

No connection, etc.  I just like the stuff.

- --Paul E.

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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 07:50:53 -0500
From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: E. coli in pH and alcohol

In HBD#2546, Jesse Stricker reports on a neat experiment on ethanol
tolerance in E. coli. I wanted to warn of a possible problem that might
affect the results.  Jesse says:

>	I made culture tubes with rich bacterial growth medium and
>absolute analytical-grade EtOH in varying concentrations. 

Most absolute EtOH is manufactured by removing the last traces of water
from 95% EtOH by adding a little benzene, then distilling off the
water/ethanol/benzene azeotrope.  Reagent grade absolute EtOH has very low
water content, but can contain not-insignificant amounts of benzene.  

The folk wisdom in grad school was that if you were going to party with lab
ethanol and live to tell about it, you wanted the 95% stuff, not the
absolute grade.  I worry that if you used absolute ethanol in this
experiment, the level you determined for killing off the E. coli could
partially due to the benzene.

If the bottle you used said "spectrophotometric grade", you're probably ok;
benzene screws up UV absorbance of the solvent, so they use a different
method to dry it.



Dave Whitman  dwhitman at rohmhaas.com
"Opinions expressed are those of the author, and not Rohm and Haas Company"

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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 08:02:48 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re:yeast & artists

- ----------"P. Edwards" <pedwards at iquest.net>writes ---------------------------
 - I consider myself more of an "artisan brewer", but I'm not going to put 
my head in the sand, either, if I see science that can help me achieve my 
goals. All the artists - sculptors, potters, painters, photographers, etc 
 - I've ever met have a lot more knowlege about the technical side of 
their chosen medium than you might think.  Knowing the science can make 
you a better artist. 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Being a brewer who makes his living as a fine artist/photographer (imodest
plug here... www.crocker.com/~jwallace), My art would have suffered much if
I had ignored the technical side of things. 
My background was premed/environmental sciences but for 2/3 of my working
life I have supported myself as a fine artist. My approach has always been
to learn as much as I can about whatever process I am involved with and then
make the decisions as to which controls to disregard/ignore. 
In my professional/artistic work today there is an incredible amount of
technical background behind the finished work. 
The same thing in the brews I make. I travel and taste many beers from which
I get ideas for what I want to make. If I did not have a good idea of what
my technical options are I would find myself limited in creating my own
versions (departures as they are).  
In my opinion, Art can only exist when there is the craft(tech) to support it. 
___________________________________________
       JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
               www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:22:37 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: reusing yeast in carboy

hi all:

John Wilkinson writes- 

>I pitch fairly large starters that have been stepped up about three times
>or reuse yeast from the previous batch.  I usually brew three batches in
>succession so I can easily reuse the yeast.  I merely siphon off the
completed
>beer and pour the chilled new wort into the fermenter onto the sediment.
>I get 75% apparent attenuation with no rousing or oxygenation after the
initial
>oxygenation.

This brought up a question I was thinking about yesterday as I was putting
a new batch into the fermenter. I have also used this technique (reusing
yeast from previous batch) very successfully. I would use it more except
that it pretty much requires the subsequent batch (or batches) to be a
style that will do well with the same yeast and this is not always what I
want to do. It is also a very good method for preparing a mondo "starter"
for higher gravity styles such as barleywine, imperial stout, old ale, etc. 

Anyway, my question concerns the use of dry hopping when using this
technique. I dry hop with leaf hops (as seems to be the most common
practice), but even with pellets you end up with a lot of hops in the yeast
cake at the bottom of the fermenter. Is this a problem? And if so, what
would be the best way to deal with it? 

I really like the simplicity of this method - does that make me lazy? By
the way, that was a great post on the laziness thread from Jim Booth. 

TIA, 

Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle

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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:39:53 -0600 (CST)
From: David S Draper <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Transferring lager to secondary

Dear Friends,

Eric Pendergrass asked when he should transfer his lager to a second
fermenter, noting that his fermentation appears to be very healthy, having
started quickly and continued well at 46 F.

Your fermentation does indeed appear to be quite healthy; I envy it!
Here are a couple of things to think about when deciding when to rack.

If your yeast strain is prone to diacetyl production, then a gradual
temperature increase (over a day or two) to about 15C/60F (check me on the
F temp), holding there for 2-3 days, is sometimes used.  It's important
that your primary fermentation be complete before doing this so that your
lager yeast don't start producing unwanted flavors.  At these slightly
warmer temps, the lager yeast will re-absorb diacetyl produced earlier.
You can then rack and begin cooling the beer to your lager temperature, at
a few degrees per day.

Depending on your pitching rate, some lager ferments can slow down in the
final stages (my most common problem when making lagers).  Thus it's
important to take gravity readings to know when primary fermentation
is complete.  In Eric's particular case, I would guess that he'll have
fewer problems of that kind than I have thanks to his pitch.

Finally, as Eric noted, the "rotten egg" smell of SO2 is common in lager
fermentation.  Chances are that no extra steps will be necessary to
prevent the smell from getting into the packaged beer.  By the time
primary fermentation subsides, most of the SO2 is scrubbed out, and what
isn't typically dissipates during lagering anyway.  So in Eric's case, it
looks like All Systems are Go.

Bless its pointed little head,

Dave in Dallas

- -- 
David S. Draper		ddraper at utdallas.edu	Fax: 214-883-2829
Dept. Geosciences	WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper	Electron Probe Lab:
Univ. Texas at Dallas				972-883-2407
 ...That's right, you're not from Texas... but Texas wants you anyway...

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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:01:47 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Re:  Airlock design / Yeast pitching

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     Hi all,
     
     Just a quick note on airlock design.  In HBD 2546 Paul Niebergall 
     misunderstood my post about airlock design, and I wanted to clear 
     things up because of the possible danger involved.
     
     I did not say to use a weight as heavy as those on pressure cookers 
     for a fermentation airlock; I said to use a device SIMILAR to the ones 
     on pressure cookers.
     
     If too much mass is used on the pressure relief valve, the pressure in 
     the fermenter will get too high.  This could inhibit the yeast, or 
     worse, explode the carboy.
     
     I doubt that anybody was running out to redesign their airlocks using 
     pressure cooker parts, but posted this just in case...
     -------------------------
     In private correspondence with some people about pitching rates, I 
     have realized that it may be useful to quickly repeat how homebrewers 
     can optimize pitching rates without costly lab equipment.
     
     It is acceptable to dilute yeast starters (not thick slurry; a starter 
     is the same consistency as fermenting beer) up to 10 times per step.  
     So if you smack a Wyeast pack, that's a 50 mL starter (that's how much 
     wort it contains).  Once the pack is swollen you can step it up 10X to 
     500 mL (just over 1 pint for those in metric denial).
     
     From 500 mL you can step up to 5000 mL (~1.3 gallon or so).  From 5000 
     mL you could inoculate a 50 L batch.  Each time you step up you should 
     provide a lot of oxygen for the yeast.  If you provide constant 
     aeration you will grow up more cells faster.
     
     When making high gravity beers or lagers you should pitch more yeast, 
     so only do a 5X dilution from the last starter into your fermenter 
     (i.e., 1 gallon starter into a 5 gallon batch (3.8 L up to 19 L).
     
     Also, when growing lager yeasts, you can keep the temperature in ale 
     range, but you must slowly cool the yeast before pitching it, so as to 
     not shock it on brew day.  I would let the last starter step ferment 
     out near lager yeast temp and cool it to pitching temp a few days in 
     advance.  On brew day pour off the liquid over the yeast cake and 
     resuspend the yeast in wort of the same temperature.  Then you can 
     pitch that active, cool slurry later in the day.
     
     If you follow this simple process, you will experience very short lag 
     times (<6 hours).
     
     If you don't want to pitch 5-10% starter wort into your batch, you can 
     let it ferment out and allow the yeast to settle.  Once it is 
     reasonably clear, you can pour the liquid off the yeast, then feed it 
     a small amount of wort on brew day morn (just enough wort to suspend 
     the yeast).  This will get the yeast going again, and when you pitch 
     it later in the day, you will experience a very short lag.
     
     As you can see, this procedure requires that you plan a bit in advance 
     for brewing sessions.  It takes about 7-10 days to get from Wyeast 
     pack to pitching volume (lagers take a bit longer because of the 
     cooling step).  You can step up more slowly if you like.  
     
     Use wort of reasonable gravity for starters (1.035-1.050).  Don't use 
     worts that contain sugar or non-malt adjuncts (you want maximum 
     nutrition for the yeast).  You can step up the starter at high 
     Kraeusen or post Kraeusen.
     
     Pitching a large amount of healthy, active yeast is very important.  
     Yes, you can make beer by underpitching, but you will maximize the 
     chance of making outstanding beer if you pitch adequately.  I cannot 
     emphasize this enough.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)
- --IMA.Boundary.827075878--

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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:35:03 -0500
From: Tom_Williams at cabot-corp.com
Subject: Wort Stability Test


Charles Hudak wirtes:

"Before everyone sounds off about how bad 12 or even 24 hour lag times are,
let me ask ALL of you: Have you ever done a wort stability test?"
While I will agree that shorter lag times are better than longer lag times,
I also have some skepticism, based on my modest brewing experience, that 24
hour lag times are bad.

OK Charles, I'm game.  How does a homebrewer do this test?
Tom Williams
Dunwoody, Georgia



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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:59:23 -0500
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: Hoegaarden yeast question

Hi All,

  I'm getting ready to brew my first attempt at a White beer (ie Witbier)
and have been looking at many references (on and offline).

  I have seen many recipes where people have used the yeast cultured from
bottles of Hoegaarden.  I actually obtained a couple bottles for just this
purpose.  However, in Micheal Jackson's "Beer Companion" (page 65) he says
that Hoegaarden bottles with a yeast different from the one used for the
primary fermentation.

  Can anyone shed some light on this subject and/or provide some practical
experience on using the yeast from bottles of Hoegaarden?

                                              Hoppy brewing,

                                              Jeff


==============================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                    Phone:  (401) 841-7210 x152
Mechanical Engineer                    Fax:    (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch  email: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI  02841-1708

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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 10:22:26 -0600
From: "Paul A. Baker" <pbaker at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: carboy collectors anonymous!

Dear Homebrewers:

Wow! 65 HBD readers responded to my question last week: 
"How many glass carboys do you use?"  According to my survey, 
we each own an average of 5.3 glass carboys of various sizes. 

The largest number of carboys anyone reported owning was 15.  
The largest clusters of respondents reported owning 3, 4, or 5 carboys each. 

The range of responses was as follows:

# of 		# of
carboys	                respondents
1		01
2		07		
3		11
4		13
5		12
6		05
7		03
8		03
9		02
10		04
11		01
12		02
13		00
14		00
15		01


Some respondents included plastic primary fermentors in their answers, 
but I excluded plastic from my tally. When respondents did not specify glass 
or plastic, I assumed they were all glass. 

So, how do you rate?  Maybe we under-average guys can mention this to our 
significant others. After all, Christmas is coming.  







Paul Baker
pbaker at facstaff.wisc.edu       (608) 263-8814
Wisconsin Center for Education Research
http://www.wcer.wisc.edu


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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:51:00 -0800
From: steinfiller at juno.com (Don H Van Valkenburg)
Subject: Agave Brew

Andrew (Ahenckler <Ahenckler at aol.com>)  writes regarding agave brews:

>What did this stuff taste like?  What kind of yeast did you use?  I saw
an ad
>in Zymurgy (?) for agave extract and was thinking about playing with
this
>stuff, but I was wondering what the outcome would be.

This is one of those situations where it is difficult to describe a
flavor in words.  The best comparison I can make is to tequila  -- yes, 
definitely reminiscent of the flavors found in tequila.   It is highly
fermentable,  like any simple sugar.  It ferments out rather dry and  I
am thus thinking of using some carapils or crystal in my next batch to
add some residual sweetness for balance.   I think the yeast is an open
subject, as this application for agave is fairly unexplored as far as I
know.   

When brewing with agave,  I immediately think of the mixed drink;
margarita; citrus, lime, orange (triple sec) etc.  Thus I have
experimented along these flavor guidelines and used hops that have citrus
like flavors such as cascade and bullion to name a few.  I also added
some sweet orange peel in post fermentation.  

Pulque is another matter.  I have never tried it but others who have tell
me that it is brewed almost like a lambic with wild yeasts and consumed
very young, almost while still fermenting. 
Mexican Americans tell me that in addition to agave, pulque is often made
with fruits such as papaya or mango. 

As a matter of disclaimer I must add that I am affiliated with the
company marketing agave to the homebrew market. 

Don Van Valkenburg
steinfiller at juno.com

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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:04:17 -0500
From: Jim Daley <jgdaley at gw.dec.state.ny.us>
Subject: Yeast Problems

I've been brewing for about 4 years, and using liquid yeast for about 3
and a half years.  I've never had a problem with liquid yeast until my last
two brews.

I generally collect yeast from the primary, wash it with sterile water, and
store it under sterile water in the refrigerator.  After about 3 or 4 brews
with the same yeast, I step up a new Wyeast culture.  For the first brew
of this season I used yeast that was stored in the fridge for about 4
months - I knew I was pushing it but decided to try it.  I pitched it into a 1
qt. starter first.  After 2 days in the primary with no action, I panicked and
used a packet of Edme dry yeast.  An very active fermentation ensued
and was done in about 2 days.

For my second brew, I stepped up a Wyeast culture of the British II
yeast.  It was giving off a very fruity/estery odor - not a clean fresh
yeast smell.  I decided not to pitch this and instead again resorted to a
packet of Edme dried yeast.  After rehydration, this yeast was giving off
a green apple aroma, but I pitched it any way.

I seem to suddenly having bad luck with yeast.

I have not used a dried yeast in over 3 years.  My question is, what can I
expect?  How good is dried yeast? Will my finished beers be as good as
ones made with a liquid yeast?  The beer styles were an American
brown and a pale ale.  I am an all grain brewer, the worts are aerated
with oxygen before pitching, and fermentation temps are held at 68
degrees in an old refrigerator.

Jim Daley
jgdaley at gw.dec.state.ny.us

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Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:19:24 -0500
From: Jim Daley <jgdaley at gw.dec.state.ny.us>
Subject: A no rinse sanitizer?

My brother in law works in a bar, and the last time I was there he was =
prepping the place for the upcoming night.  To sanitize glasses, they use =
a no-rinse sanitizer that comes in a tablet form.  Does anybody out there =
know if this would be a good no-rinse sanitizer for home brewing?=20

The specifics are as follows:

Brand name:  Cavalier (=22Multi-purpose sanitizing tablets=22)
Active Ingredient:  50%; Alkyl(C14 95%, C12 3%, C16 2%) dimethyl 		=
      benzyl ammonium chloride dihydrate.
Directions for use: 1 tablet in 1 =BD gal water (200 ppm).  Soak one 		=
       minute then air dry (often not dried in bar situations)
Other label info: Kills HIV-1
		  Registered by US EPA - no harm to humans
		  Registered by USDA for use in meat and poultry plants or =
		  for food utensils by US food and drug administration.
		  Fulfills sanitizing criteria of US Public Health Service =
in 		  water up to 500 ppm hardness calculated as Ca03.

Jim Daley
jgdaley=40gw.dec.state.ny.us

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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 09:48 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Traquair House Ale - Grain Bill Question

My next project - the perfect Strong Scotch Ale and Traquair House Ale is my 
target. Reading in Ray Daniels' _Designing Great Beers_ (page 290), he lists 
the grain bill as Pale Ale malt and Black malt only. Reading Michael 
Jackson's Beer Companion (page 110), he lists Pale Ale malt and Roasted 
Barley only.

Does anyone have a third reference that could clear this up? Is it Black or 
is it Roasted Barley?

And if you haven't tried this stuff - get some!


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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:50:45 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Re: Wort stability test and lag times

     Hi all,
     
     Charles Hudak points out that a wort stability test is a good idea 
     (George Fix suggests it in at least one of his books, too).  Charles 
     assumes that many of us don't do it, which makes him a target of that 
     old phrase, "When you assume, you make an..."
     
     I do wort stability tests fairly regularly (sometimes I just forget).  
     I'm sure others out there do, also.
     
     While a properly performed wort stability test can show you that your 
     beer won't suffer from microbial damage during the lag, there are two 
     factors Charles has forgotten:
     
     1.  A long lag can lead to off flavors produced by the yeast 
     themselves.  In my experience, slight esteriness can form in beers 
     with a 12 hour lag.  This is really most noticeable in clean styles 
     like Alts and most lagers.
     
     2.  There could be contaminants in the pitching yeast.  A wort 
     stability test won't tell you diddley about them, yet they can pose a 
     real threat to the beer.
     
     It is a *great* idea to use as many simple QC tools as we can, but 
     don't let them lull you into a false sense of security.  The shorter 
     the lag time, the better it will be for your beer.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:04:11 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: full boil,

Brewsters:

D Carter says:

> I would like to try my hand at all grain brewing after many   =

>extract/specialty grain batches. The only problem I forsee (other than  =
 =

>learning the process) is with full volume boils. I currently use an   =

>enamel on steel pot on an electric stove. It does straddle two burners  =
 =

>for a nice boil, but does'nt hold five+ gallons.

>I know there must be plenty of you brewing in your basement,
>what type of burner('s) are you using?

I brew at my bar ( in my walk-out basement - I guess that counts?) which
has a two burner electric stove as part of the sink/fridge/stove unit.  I=

use two cheap stainless steel 4 gallon kettles which JUST fit and I get a=

good boil in both kettles from about 7 gallons to 5.5 gallons in a hour.
- ------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:21:42 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject:  Wort stability test; taking offense at taking offense

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> HOMEBREW Digest #2547               Mon 03 November 1997

> From: Chasman <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
> Subject: Wort Stability Tests
> 
> In an effort to throw another log on the fire that is this undying thread
> on pitching rates....
> 
> What you really need to be concerned with is your wort stability.
> ...
> Before everyone sounds off about how bad 12 or even 24 hour lag times are,
> let me ask ALL of you: Have you ever done a wort stability test?
> 
> Charles Hudak
> cwhudak at adnc.com

Can you give us a pointer to any references about wort stability testing
- -- what it is, how to do it, and what it really tells me?  I haven't
seen this mentioned in the homebrewing literature, but then I haven't
read ALL of it -- or is this a commercial brewing thing?  Or something
that you have developed?

Thanks for any info.

 - - - - - - UNRELATED - - - - - -

A couple of people have recently said, in effect, "that's not what
I said, so you should not have taken offense."

In general, the offensive meaning is a fair reading of the message,
and the inoffensive, intended meaning is another.

Most grudge-match flame wars I've seen reduce to: "You said X," "No
I didn't," "Yes you did," "No I didn't".......

This is not a perfect medium.  We cannot always say ONLY what we
mean.  The BLAME for such problems rests on the medium.  The
RESPONSIBILITY for fixing them rests on BOTH people.

Here are the steps I follow.  I wish I could say I follow them
always; I do try.

1) Re-read messages before sending, looking for statements that could
   be taken as backhanded put-downs.

2) If another has given insult, but there is any doubt, check with
   the sender.  Email or post "when you said X, did you mean Y?"
   (This is where I most often fail -- something appears obviously,
   crudely inflammatory, but that interpretation surprises the sender.)

3) If someone takes offense at my words, I ASSUME THEY ARE RIGHT TO DO
   SO.  If I did not intend that meaning, the statement was not clear
   enough.  This is hard to internalize and live by, but critical.

   If someone feels you have insulted them, you will not calm them down
   by telling them they're also too stupid to read English.

   When someone takes offense, I look back at the message and try hard to
   see how they got that unintended meaning.  I bear in mind that words
   have different connotations to different people.  Then I: 1) state that
   I was unclear, 2) apologize for the inclarity and unintended offense,
   and 3) restate what I really meant, more carefully, avoiding any words
   that seemed to "set off" the person (assuming they have a connotation
   on that word that I don't understand).

   I take onto myself the "blame" for the confusion, but not for the
   offensive meaning; this generally opens the person's mind to the idea
   that I honestly didn't mean it that way.

5) If someone is "playing for points" -- trying to win an argument about
   a message, rather than achieve communication on substantive issues --
   LET THEM WIN.  Who cares?

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada

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---