---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brews Traveler in Deutchland (Part 1) (John Adams)
  Brews Traveler in Deutchland (Part 2) (John Adams)
  Where are you? (Jeff Renner)
  Tank connections (Tom Clark)
  Parti-gyle, ("David R. Burley")
  Cleaning blowoff hoses (Steve Armbrust)
  Xmas Gifts ("Ellery.Samuels")
  PH test strips (S&R Moed)
  temperature scale (Lou Heavner)
  Re: cost justification (Sheena McGrath)
  Bubble-gum! (Al Korzonas)
  bottling yeasts (Al Korzonas)
  another thought on homebrewing expense ("Curt Speaker")
  Justify your expenses ("Alan McKay")
  Cabbage smell in beer from HSA ("Alan McKay")
  Efficiencies, Sparging & Stout (Rob Kienle)
  Re: Schmidling & wort chilling (brian_dixon)
  Cleaning Blowoff tubes (Grampus)
  Re: Winterfest (brian_dixon)
  Bottle Storage ("Mike Palma")
  fermenter CO2 to carboy (Mark D Weaver)
  RE: Belgian Yeasts (Mark D Weaver)
  Belgian Yeasts (Mark D Weaver)
  re: Pump placement ("C.D. Pritchard")
  WYeast 1338 (Mark D Weaver)
  Re: parti-gyle definition (Sean Mick)
  Lab stuff (Louis Bonham)
  RE:  Homegrown hops (Richard Gardner)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:33:45 -0700 (MST)
From: John Adams <jadams at pipeline.cnd.hp.com>
Subject: Brews Traveler in Deutchland (Part 1)


               Brews Traveler in Deutchland (Part 1/2)


Saturday, 08.11.97
My flight arrived in Stuttgart nearly 5 hours later than planned
due to a 3 hour delay in Chicago and missing my connecting flight.
I arrived at the Hotel Buehler at dusk and met up with a colleague
to go out for dinner.  We found a lovely Swabish (Southern German)
restaurant just down the road, a very authentic establishment with
traditional decor and woodwork.  Included with dinner was an aperitif
drink (don't ask me what it was) in a small long-necked bottle.

Our beer was a Schoenbuch Hefeweizen (the Schoenbuch brewery is
directly across the street from my hotel) which went well with our
Jager stew of pork, veal, green beans, and spatzle.  The Hefeweizen
is a nice balanced wheat with not too much banana or clove.  It is
very drinkable beer and very clean.
  
Then off we went to the Bier Brunnan (the beer fountain) for some
more suds.  I tried another local beer, this time the Schoenbuch
Hefeweizen Dunkel.  This was a bit too bitter due to too much hop
(see my follow-up on Monday).  I capped the evening with the Hannen
Alt, a very crisp, clear, and clean ale with a pleasant hop bite,
an excellent before-and after-dinner beer.


Sunday  09.11.97
Sunday was fun-day!  I got up bright and early and was the first
to eat breakfast so that I could get right onto the Autobahn.  The
morning was cold and drizzling and I traveled approximately 75
kilometers before the skies cleared, the road dried off, and I
could open up my Audi A4.  I drove northeast to Bamburg, home of
some of the finest beers in the world.  Bamberg's famous beers are
the Rauchbier (smoked beer) and during the month of November the
local breweries brew a special Rauchbock.  

I managed to get the car to just under 200 km/h (hint: divide by
1.61) outside of Nuremberg, but then the skies darkened and the 
rain started so I had to drop down to 160 until I arrived in
Bamberg.   Regardless of the weather, there is no experience like
driving fast on the Autobahn.  Hearing the wrapped-up hum of the
motor with the radio cranked to the likes of Dire Straits, Midnight
Oil, and Jimmy Hendrix was an unbeatable experience!

My first stop in Bamburg was Spezial Brau, a brewery dating back
1536.  I sat with locals for a lunch of Schweinbraten, Spargel,
and Knudel (roast pork, creamed asparagus, and a potato dumpling)
and of course the Rauchbock.  The Spezial Rauchbock is not quite
as smoky as their Rauchbier but very close.  Darker in color than
Spezial's regular lager, I noted a slight harshness in the flavor.
Mein biere sehr guten!

Next stop was in the older part of town for the Schlenkerla
Rauchbock.  Schlenkerla dates back to 1678 and soon after I arrived
in walks an English-speaking local I recalled from my visit last
year so I joined him for Rauchbock.  A very nice bier with a
slightly smokier character than found in the Spezial, it also has
a slight diacetyl taste.  The smoke character lingered in the back
of my mouth for a very nice finish.

I am then off to the ancient medieval, walled city of Rothenburg.
For the first 60 km the skies poured but then the clouds parted 
and it was my chance to make up the lost time.  I shifted into
5th and floored the gas pedal of the Audi for the next 30 km
without letting off, turning the purr into a roar as I got the
A4 up to 210 km/h, so fast I managed to blow right past Rothenburg!
I simply was having too much fun and drove another 15 km down the
road before I turned the car around and head backed.  That was
really quite OK since I now had a clean stretch of highway and
the chance to top the car out at 215 km/h!

I capped the evening by having a very nice dinner at the Hotel
Buehler with my colleagues as we swap stories about the places we
visited that day.  As customary, Herr Buehler invited each of us
to enjoy a shot of  Schladerer Schnapps.  Who am I to go against
tradition!


Monday, 10.11.97
In the afternoon, I took the Audi onto the back roads toward
Tubligen to visit a 500-year-old Abbey, Babbenhaus, which is another
walled city.  The roads were tight and winding through the thick
forest.  With the leaves covering the road, I managed to get the
car up to 140 km/h on the fast tight curves as I zipped in and out
of the trees.

After driving the back roads all afternoon I ate dinner and spent
the evening at Swabaner, a local restaurant serving authentic
Swabish dishes. I had a very nice dinner starting with the
Schoenbuch Hefeweizen Dunkel.  The Dunkel is very clean without 
any of the bitterness I encountered earlier and has a nice clove
character.  My friends and I from Colorado equally enjoy this 0,5
litre that was going down way too easily through the course of
the evening.

My  next selection was the Schoenbuch Krystalweizen, a nice
Krystal with a hint of spice and clove.  This is a very drinkable
beer without losing it character.  During most of the evening we
had the entire restaurant to ourselves but eventually the
restaurant filled.  The three of us had the best Swabian dishes
and had many, many beers (did I mention we had many beers).  At
the end of the evening we each drank a shot of Schnapps and
walked (more like staggered) back to the hotel.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:33:48 -0700 (MST)
From: John Adams <jadams at pipeline.cnd.hp.com>
Subject: Brews Traveler in Deutchland (Part 2)


               Brews Traveler in Deutchland (Part 2/2)


Tuesday 11.11.97
Tuesday was, unfortunately, a working day but the catered lunch
was a very nice spiced turkey and of course beer, a Warsteiner.
In the evening we all got together for a very nice pasta meal
with more beer!  For the third time in as many days I enjoyed
the local brand, this time the Schoenbuch Forstmeister Pils.   A
very clean, hopped lager that went down easily, time after time,
The Forstmeister has a sweet malt aftertaste and a quickly
subsiding hop bitterness, almost a Kolsch-like malt.  When I
arrived back at the hotel, Herr Buehler once again invites us in
the bar for an evening shot of Schladerer Schnapps for a
goodnight aperitif.


Wednesday 12.11.97
The catered lunch was a Swabish spatzle with a pork sauce and a
tall glass of Warsteiner.  Wednesday evening we visited very nice
Italian restaurant and ate pizza (hey I'm closer to the source
than I would be in the US).  My pepperoni pizza was complemented
by a nice Gtuttgarter Hofbrau Hefeweizen, a pleasant, cloudy wheat
beer.  I have come to the conclusion you cannot find a bad wheat
beer in Deutchland, but just in case I continue to look.

After Italian it was Irish.  We headed over to an Irish pub where
for the first time I heard virtually everyone speak English.  The
patrons were playing cricket and we drink a couple Guinness Stouts,
one of my favorite beers.  My Guinness has the impression of a
clover leaf in the head.  It is customary to swirl the last
remaining beer as it pours through the creamy, frothy head to
create a design.  

Next I just had to try the local Kult Naturlich Trub (naturally
cloudy) because my German friend, Christof Marquadt, is acquainted
with the brewery and also because the brewery is on Rottweiler
Strasse!  The Kult has a nice malt sweetness and hop balance.
The finish leaves a nice sweet character and a nice Kolsch-like
balance.


Thursday 13.11.97
Thursday night was my last night so off we went to downtown
Stuttgart.  We finish with our meetings early so early I decide
to break the land speed record one last time.  I drive south from
Boebligen in rush hour traffic and manage to persuade the Audi to
180 km/h for one last time.  

I picked up my friends at the hotel and we race from the Autobahn into
downtown Stuttgart and descend into 'the kettle'.  Our first stop was
dinner at a Mexican restaurant for some Tubliginer beers.  Believe it or
not the food was respectable, the atmosphere was fantastic, and the beers
were even better.  I started off with TU 8 Pils and quickly followed
it with a TU 8 Hefeweizen.  The Pils is malty sweet with a slight
bitterness.  It has a very nice mouth feel and is quite enjoyable.
The Hefeweizen has excellent head retention and also has nice
mouth feel.  The banana/clove character was evident, the beer
cloudy and creamy.

My German friend explained the proper etiquette of 'clinking'
glasses for differing beer styles (I may be mistaken but I believe
there is a German law involved).  I in turn explained the different
aspects and traits of tasting and judging fine beers (too cool,
I'm teaching a Deutchlander how to appreciate beers).

Next we headed off to Calwer-Eck-Brau for the Calwer-Eck-Brau
Hefeweizen.  This beer also has a lovely head and a unique
caramelized malt aftertone.  Not as much banana as the others I
tried but very pleasant.  The Calwer-Eck-Brau is a very nice sweet
Pilsener that is not particularly bitter.  Extremely drinkable with
a nice crystal/dextrin malt sweetness and one of the best beers
I tried.  

My last stop of the evening and the trip was Sophie Brauhaus.  This
pub is very much like some of the finest brewpubs in the United
States with a very nice decor, American music piped throughout,
and copper mashtuns prominently displayed.  The Sophie Brauhaus
Hefeweizen has a much darker color, less banana taste, cleaner,
and spicier than any other I tried.  Their version is similar to
an American Wheat that is 40% or less wheat in the grist, but is
still a very nice beer.

The flight back to the States was just as eventful (and late) as
the outgoing flight but I got the chance to try the German version
of Becks on the plane.  It definitely has more hop and a stronger
bitterness than the version imported into the US and is a much
better beer.

This trip was fantastic (did I mention I actually worked while I
was out there) enjoying a total of  17 different beers (not 17
beers, 17 different beers).  I ate wonderful food, drove the world's
best highways, and even brought back a few souvenirs (some of
which weren't beer).


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:37:20 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Where are you?

Brewers

Keith signed his post:
>Keith Royster - Mooresville/Charlotte, North Carolina

Dave signed:
>Dave Riedel, Victoria, BC, Canada

Bill signed:
>Bill Macher   macher at telerama.lm.com   Pittsburgh, Pa   USA

And John:
>John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkns at wss.dsccc.com

And others as well.  Notice a nice pattern here?  We know where these
brewers are from.  It might help us understand their problems or results,
it helps foster a sense of community, and you might even discover a fellow
brewer down the road that you didn't know.  More and more are doing this,
but the majority still don't.  So, this is it, my semi-annual request that
we all include our location at the end of our posts.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:41:28 -0500
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: Tank connections

On Sunday, November 16th, Richard Johnson asked about installing a brass
Ball Valve:

I have seen several items on this subject...  We seem to have plenty of 
biologists and chemists in here but, where are the Chemical Engineers 
and Mechanical engineers?

I am not an engineer but I worked 34 years in a large chemical plant 
where nearly everything was made of stainless steel.  Often, when a pipe 
was attached to a tank, it was done by welding half a stainless steel 
pipe coupling into the side of the tank, then a pipe nipple can be 
screwed into this half coupling.  Since the outside diameter of the 
pipe coupling is much larger than the pipe, I believe this makes a 
significantly stronger connection and if it is heliarc welded both 
inside and out, it should come out quite smooth and easy to keep clean. 
 I also would suggest using teflon tape on the threads.  Stainless steel 
is pretty bad about siezing.

Tom


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:02:27 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Parti-gyle,

Brewsters,

Loren is correct that there were no serious answers to the question of wh=
at
constitutes a "parti-gyle". The  answer s/he provided is not correct abou=
t
it being a quart of wort held back for later addition, however.

"Gyle" pronounced "gail or guile" in English ( and not "jile" )  is relat=
ed
to the word  "gijl" (Dutch) pronounced "guile" which itself is related to=

the Dutch word "gijlen" which means "to ferment".  The modifier "parti"
just means a "portion". So "parti-gyle"  means a portion of a fermentatio=
n
or a fermentation which is broken into portions.

Parti-gyle in British usage has come to represent the process whereby
several beers can be made from the same mash by taking off the first
runnings of wort to brew a strong beer and then brewing a small beer from=

the sparged wort, plus some of the first runnings wort added to it to
provide sufficient nutrients for the yeast. Rarely ,but on occasion, thes=
e
are combined in two or more separate fermenters to make identical beers.
- ------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 00:14:50 -0800
From: Steve Armbrust <stevea at thepalace.com>
Subject: Cleaning blowoff hoses

In HBD #2561, Dave Burley asks how others clean their blowoff hoses.  =
Well, like some others, I've switched to a larger glass carboy (6.5 gal) =
for my primary fermenter and eliminated the blow-off hose.  However, I =
did this primarily because it was easier.  When I did use a blow-off =
hose, I felt I adequately cleaned it by first using a bottle brush on =
the inside to remove debris and then soaking it in a sanitizer.

The key to using a bottle brush (a little smaller than a carboy brush =
and without the kink) is to tie a length of thick string to the end of =
the handle. To the other end of the string, tie something heavy, such as =
several washers or nuts.  The brush must have a large enough diameter to =
not just fall through the hose (which is why the string is necessary). =
Then drop the string through the blowoff hose and pull the bottle brush =
through.  Do this several times from both directions, twisting the brush =
when you get it far enough to get a hold.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 Steve Armbrust                    stevea at thepalace.com
 Human Factors Engineer      503-350-3246
 The Palace Inc.
 9401 SW Nimbus Avenue
 Beaverton, OR 97008
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence=20
that it is not utterly absurd. -- Bertrand Russell




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 12:41:56  EDT 
From: "Ellery.Samuels" <esamuel at mvsb.nycenet.edu>
Subject: Xmas Gifts

I would like to purchase some books as holiday gifts for homebrewing friends.
Most are what would be considered intermediate brewers (ie partial-mash
brews).CP's book is already available.  Looking for books that would raise
their knowledge (and mine too) in areas such as: decoction mashing; protein
rests; formulating recipes; using adjuncts...

Private e-mail or public postings okay.  Will post and list all responses when
received.

Thanx,
Ellery

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:18:37 -0500 (EST)
From: S&R Moed <bina at idirect.com>
Subject: PH test strips

Hi from the North everyone, could someone please send me information on
which ph test strips to use for all grain brewing (i'm just starting out)
and where to get them?  I'm in southern Ontario, but any where in the world
via mail order is fine.  Please send me their phone # or e-mail and product
# if possible.

Thanks   Rob Moed  (bina at idirect.com)


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:51 -0600
From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner)
Subject: temperature scale

     Sorry in advance for wasting bandwidth...
     
     Sometime back, a temperature scale was jokingly offered which related 
     various temperatures to various activities in Wisconsin.  It went down 
     to pretty low temperatures, as I recall.  If anybody has that bit of 
     humor and can mail it to me, I'd be grateful.
     
     Muchas Gracias,
     
     Lou
     
     <lheavnerATfrmailDOTfrcoDOTcom>
     (You know the drill... replace AT with  at  and DOT with .)

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:40:24 -0800
From: Sheena McGrath <sheena at gte.net>
Subject: Re: cost justification

I sympathise with the man whose SO complains about the cost of brewing.
Luckily, my husband used to brew but never had any luck with it, so he's
happy to leave me to it. 
The way I justify all-grain expenses is to spread them over time, and
brew enough beer to justify the equipment cost. (If $50 dollars worth of
equipment is used to make 50 batches of beer, that is an extra cost of a
dollar a batch. Creative accounting.)
The second way to justify expenses is, as others have pointed out, the
cost of micros and imports. As long as I keep brewing English ales and
Red Nectar clones I have no fear of my husband getting restless. It's
also known as bribery.
So find out what your wife likes best and brew up a special batch "just
for her". And get creative with the money part.
Sheena

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:47:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Bubble-gum!

Rick writes:
>Any suggestions on what causes a bubble gum aroma and flavor to a beer?  =
>I have had good success with a particular IPA (extract) brew but 2 out =
>of 8 have had this obnoxious scent & flavor.  Is this a known problem =
>that is correctable?

Not correctable for already made batches.  Yeast create that aroma and
my strong suspicion is that it's a Brettanomyces yeast.  Orval is loaded
with bubble-gum aroma and that comes from a Brettanomyces yeast they
add along with several other yeasts late in the process (it's either in
the secondary or for bottle-conditioning, but my notes aren't handy).
Brettanomyces are rather attenuative yeasts... are the FG's of these
beers lower than expected?

Whether it's Brett or not, the bottom line is it's the yeast.  Don't
reuse the yeast if you don't like this aroma (or make an Orval clone!)
and watch sanitation... it could be that a Brettanomyces yeast (they
are very durable) has taken up residence in a scratch in your fermenter
or in the tap on your bottling bucket, etc.  You may even choose to
change all the plastic hoses, fillers, canes, etc. (it's a good idea to do
this once a year or so even if you don't have infections).


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:05:39 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: bottling yeasts

I've had a lot of offline discussions and I want to clarify my statement
regarding Belgian Ales and bottling yeasts.  I used to be crazy about
Belgian Ales and that's all I would drink.  Now, I have them once in a
while, but am brewing more Bitters and experimenting with German lagers
and ales.  I've really fallen behind in my study of Belgian Ales.

So, based upon the two dozen or so breweries for which I know with quite
a bit of certainty as to whether they filter, bottle-condition with the
primary yeast, or bottle-condition with a different yeast, about a third
that we get in the US are filtered (like Rodenbach).  Of the rest I only
know of Orval to be using a different yeast than the fermentation yeast.

Now, given that there are over 300 different beers brewed in Belgium,
it was unfair for me to make a generalization such as I did, that
implied that *most* are using the fermentation yeast for bottling.

Jim Busch mentioned Westmalle in private email.  I've heard in the past
that this is a bottling yeast, but since then, Pierre Rajotte has told
me that he revived a yeast from a bottle of Westmalle and after a few
generations of poor attenuation, it began to ferment more normally.  He
thought that perhaps it was simply beat-up by the alcohol and long
trip across the big pond.

So, that's my take on this whole thing.  Sorry Ken, I don't know
about the Lefebvre Brussels White, although I believe I tasted it
on my last trip to Belgium... have to check my notes.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:43:57 EST
From: "Curt Speaker" <speaker at safety-1.safety.psu.edu>
Subject: another thought on homebrewing expense



Just a quick thought on this thread:

Has anyone priced even mediocre beer at the distributor lately??? 
(yes, I live in the anal state of Pennsylvania where you can only buy 
cases of beer at a beer distributor)  Bud (which I wouldn't use to 
poison wild animals) is ~$15/case; decent micros are $20-35; imports 
are $25-40+ depending on what you're interested in.
Given the volume of beer that I like to drink, it is fairly easy to 
justify the cost of homebrewing.  I culture my Wyeast from the dregs 
of my secondary, buy hops in bulk and brew allgrain, so I can make 2 
cases of beer (5 gallons) for about $7-8.  I'm also single, so I also 
don't have to justify my hobby to a spouse...plus one of my cats eats 
the spilled barley kernels :-)
Just another data point
Curt
 
Curt Speaker                         
Biosafety Officer 
Penn State University                
Environmental Health and Safety    
speaker at ehs.psu.edu                   
http://www.ehs.psu.edu
^...^
(O_O)
=(Y)=
 """

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:46:00 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Justify your expenses


Ken Lee wants to know how to justify expenses.

Well, Ken, I don't know what you're doing wrong, but my beer is costing
me
about $10 CDN or less for 5 dozen.  That doesn't count all the money on 
equipment, of course,  But if you really want to, you can stop buying
that
any time you want.  I just don't want to :-)

As for the time : well, it's a hobby.  I don't want to be too critical,
but it
sounds to me like your wife just has to learn to deal with it.  What
hobbies
does she have, and how much time does she spend with them?  7 or
8 hours per month isn't a lot of time to spend on a hobby.

Surely to goodness she can't expect you to spend every waking hour
together?  That's a recipe for maddness!  1 day per month is hardly
something you should have to beg for.  My wife gives me 1 day per
week provided that I set aside my Sunday for just the 2 of us.

Make some compromises.  Do some of the yucky, boring, female
things, and don't complain when she makes you do them.

Afterall, isn't your beer worth it?  ;-)

 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
Nortel Enterprise Networks
Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations
PC Support Prime


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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:37:13 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Cabbage smell in beer from HSA


Well, after a long time listening to people tell me that hot-side
aeration will
cause cabbage smells, I finally experienced it.  I pasteurized an
infected
batch by siphoning it into my big brewpot and putting it on the stove. 
Anyway, during all of this I smelled the cabbage for the first time in
my life, and it was a very distinct cabbage.

However, in the past I've violently shaken carboys full of wort which 
were hot enough to kill yeast, and have never had this before.  Could
it be that things have to be pretty damned hot for this to trouble you?

 -alan

- --
Alan McKay
Nortel Enterprise Networks
Norstar / Companion / Monterey Operations
PC Support Prime


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:08:32 -0600
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Efficiencies, Sparging & Stout

Now that my wedding is over (and the wedding alt is all but gone), I'm
back to beermaking (whoever says it's easier the second time around
hasn't taken the age factor into consideration!). Last weekend I brewed
my first big (12-gallon) batch of stout, which, aiming for an OG of
1.072, involved some 30 lbs of grain. The bill included about 64% pale
ale malt, 10% roasted barley, 10% flaked barley, 6% chocolate, 5%
crystal, and 5% black patent. My efficiency on this batch was
significantly lower than normal, and I'm trying to figure out why.

One thing I noticed was that I was running perilously close to a stuck
sparge most of the way through. The recirculating pump started clogging
up several times when the inflow from the kettle would slow down, and
upon stirring I noticed how the weight of all that grain had really
compacted a thick layer of crud on top of the false bottom. I'm
wondering, then, if the efficiency dropped off since a lot of sugars got
left in the bottom layer of the mash. Has anyone else noticed anything
like this, or has anyone tried using some rice hulls with a mash that
big in order to facilitate the runoff (which I'm thinking of trying next
time). The only other thing I can think of is that the batch did involve
a pretty high percentage of diastatically neutral grains (flaked,
roasted, chocolate) and relied quite heavily, therefore, on the pale ale
malt for conversion (which is supposably pretty weak compared to regular
2-row, we think).

I corrected the efficiency factor by boiling the wort for an extra hour
and a half to concentrate the solution to my target OG, but I'd rather
come up with a more time-effective answer for the future.

Any thoughts (on the beer, not the wedding!)?

- --
Cheers4beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com



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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 14:15:34 -0800
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Schmidling & wort chilling

>I agree that it is unnecessary for a home brewer who makes 5 gal
batches
>to make or buy a fancy wort chiller.  However, I use a procedure to
>chill my 5-6 gal of wort that is faster and not much more work than his
>"no chill" method. 
>
[stuff about pot chilling in a water bath snipped]

You are of course right, that being so anal isn't necessary.  I force
chill because there are many sources of information about why hot wort
shouldn't sit around hot for any longer than necessary, AND because
chilling made my post-boil experience so darned convenient.  First time
I did it, I felt like I was cheating or something, and yes, I started
with the usual water bath method and found it to be a successful method
to use.  Then I built my own immersion chiller.  In fact, I did go a
little beyond the norm (since I was building one anyway) and I built a
double chiller ... no, not the pre-chill then chill gizmos you see some
people talk about.  I just built 2 chillers, each using 30' of 3/8"
copper line, but one was a larger diameter and the other was a smaller
(small kettle and paint can used to form the coils).  I placed the
smaller diameter  chiller inside the larger, then used T-fittings on the
in-feed and out-feeds of the two coils so that a single hose would feed
both.  A bit of copper tie-up wire to hold the coils together and voila!
Super chiller!  With 60 F water from my hose, I can chill 5-6 gallons of
wort from a full boil to around 65 F in 8 - 9 minutes.  Unless I wait to
let the cold break material settle out (I usually do), I can be pitching
the yeast within 20 to 30 minutes from a full rolling boil!  Now I get
to bed earlier!  Compared to the 4+ hours for water bath chilling, this
seemed to be too incredible the first time I tried it.  Beer quality is
better too, but I also changed a boat load of other things at the same
time (all-grain, full boil volume, etc.), so I won't pretend to make any
sweeping conclusions about how necessary force-chilling is ... and
besides, none of my friends commented that the 'old' beer they had
tasted in years past was bad, so what evidence do I have, eh?

Brian


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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:33:13 -0500
From: Grampus <grampusNOSPAM at InfoAve.Net>
Subject: Cleaning Blowoff tubes

I use a largish couple of nuts tied on one end of a string and my bottle =
brush on the other, threading the weighted end through the 1" ID tube =
and then pulling the brush through the detergent-and-water soaked tube.  =
It gets all the gunk out of the tube before doing a complete soak in =
bleach water to sanitize it!

BTW, I don't use any kind of sterilizing solution in the water-locked =
end of the blow-off tube.  I have serious doubts that it will ever have =
a return of 4 feet up the hose, so I just use clean water in a 5 gallon =
bucket.

Paul Gennrich
Isp Brewing



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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 14:59:18 -0800
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Winterfest

>     Well, I know I'll get blasted for this one, but I've got to ask 
>     anyway.  I have never seen any information on what makes a 
>     "Winterfest" beer, so I assume it is strictly for marketing, and
not 
>     really a beer style.  My problem is that I really love Coors 
>     Winterfest.  I know, I know, everybody shuns the Budmilloors
swill, 
>     but this is different.  And I know, I'll get e-mails that say "if
you 
>     like Coors Winterfest, you've GOT to try this brand".  I've tried
them 
>     all, and I keep coming back to the Coors -- there is something
very 
>     unique about it.  I'm not a big fan of trying to clone commercial 
>     beers; it's easier just to go buy them.  However, for the other
nine 
>     months of the year when this is not available, I would love to
brew 
>     something similar.  Would this be characterized as a simple Fest
beer, 
>     like a Vienna, or low-gravity Marzen?  If anyone could help me
with 
>     this, I would greatly appreciate it.

I don't think there are any rules.  In fact, rule breaking seems to be
the idea.  Winter brews, whether called Winterfest or Jubel-something or
Holiday-something or whatever appear to be an opportunity for
microbrewers and homebrewers to step outside the style guidelines a bit
and make a special beer for the holidays, unrestricted by the usual
brew-haha about style and guidelines.  Michelob, Coors, and others who
are jumping on the Winterfest bandwagon are just playing the marketing
and competition game to compete with the microbrewers.  But, I always
persist in my idea that american light lager (noncapitalization on the
name intentional) is a distinct regional style that grew in response to
very valid influences (cost and availability of ingredients,
oligopolistic business climate etc.).  These forces are _not_ a lot
different from the forces that caused the famous beer styles of the
world to develop ... it's just sad to realize that for the US, it was a
recipe for crap instead of beer (sorry).  Taste is a very personal
thing, and I won't work too hard at pressing my opinions onto others.
So, if the Coors stuff is good, and it might be, then I say vote with
your dollars and buy a lot, drink it and be merry!  If I hear much more
about it, then I may go buy one can myself just to try it out ... 

Brian


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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:26:03 PST
From: "Mike Palma" <mikepalma at hotmail.com>
Subject: Bottle Storage

Hello,

I'm usually just a lurker on the list, but have a question I was hoping 
to get some advice on.  I have around 10 cases of empty bottles I'm 
looking to store in a limited amount of space.  The best idea I can come 
up with is to buy one of those heavy duty roll-cart garbage cans 
(plastic) and fill it up with bottles and water.  I also thought I throw 
in some tri-sodium phosphate to keep the mold away.  Could anyone out 
there play devil's advocate and tell me why this is or isn't a good 
idea?  Any other ideas/suggestions?  Thanks in advance.


Mike Palma
mikepalma at hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:07:41 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: fermenter CO2 to carboy

Tom,

That's an interesting idea you have. I seem to recall that fermentation
gases (CO2) can also carry with it some undesireable odors, so you may
just want to "flush" your carboy with some CO2 from your CO2 tank. The
CO2 that you buy is "scrubbed" and filtered, and in the long run wont
cost you very much...

Regards,
Mark

>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:48:33 -0500
>From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
>Subject: CO2

>Has anybody tried this?

>Connect a piece of tubing from the air lock on top of the primary 
>fermenter and run it over into the empty carboy.

>By the time primary fermentation is pretty much over and it is time to 
>rack the brew to the carboy, the carboy should be full of CO2.
>Right?

>Are the risks of infection significant?

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:48:26 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: RE: Belgian Yeasts

Hello fellow forumers,

Just so you know what I wrote regarding Belgian Yeasts  was a rumor that
I heard, I was not writing it as if an absolute fact. However, I happen
to know that SOME (please note the disclaimer as to NOT ALL) do not use
their fermentation yeasts to "prime" their finished bottled product.

For the gentleman that suggested that we ask Bill Clinton's cousin about
Anchor Brewing Co's yeast;  Well, it seems that past presidents have had
relatives who were fairly knowledgable about beer, so why not? ;-)

One question: Does anyone know the life span of a Framboise or Kriek
regarding storage temps? Recently I purchased some for a few friends
while I was in CO, it seemed to taste a little on the mishandled side as
compared to what I can get at home.  I know the life span of an
un-pasteurized beer, at room temp (78F) is something to the tune of 8
weeks, or less.... Any comments?

Regards,
Mark

(O=00=O) / (o--tii-o)
(O=00=O) / (D       D)
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose -  :  headbrewer at juno.com  or 
AwfulQuiet at aol.com

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:08:19 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: Belgian Yeasts

Al,

>I'd trust brewers before I trusted royalty, but I happen to know for a
fact that Chimay, Westmalle, De Dolle Brouwers, DuPont, Achouffe,
>are five examples (off the top of my head) of breweries in which the
yeast in the bottles is actually the fermentation yeast.  Cantillon's
>lambics are not filtered nor are the Boon Marriage Parfait, Oud Beersel,
Drie Fonteinen or Giradin, which means that you can revive *some* of the
>microbiota from the fermentations (many are killed by alcohol and pH).

Ah! Finally someone who is more interested in educating rather than
ripping someone a new *ssh*le for the fact that he made an overly zealous
posting to the forum. I agree with you, I didn't mean to imply that ALL
belgian beers have their yeast "replaced".

>Ahh, *now* it is, but pre-1994 (I believe) New Belgium's Trippel [sic]
and Abbey Ale *were* indeed bottled with the fermentation strain
>(this is from the brewmaster's talk at the Denver AHA Conference) and I
happen to still have a bottle of Abbey Ale with the primary
>fermentation yeast in the bottle.

Any thoughts as to the viabilty of that yeast? You know that WYeast's (or
maybe Seibel's) yeast bank has some belgian yeast in storage... or so I
heard at the MBAA in Madison. I was told about New Belgium's yeast by
their then night shift brewer, we attended the MBAA M&BS course together
before I went to work for an ill-fated (read badly managed) micro in
WV...

Regards,
Mark - Co-Founder: BWBSBM

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:00:16
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Pump placement

Dave Burley wrote:

>Ted Hull gives an excellent dissertation on pump cavitation and recommends
>placing the pump between the boiler and the chiller to avoid cavitation
>caused by frictional losses in the chiller....  Doesn't the high
>temperature of the water on the boiler side cause cavitation moreso than
<the cooler side due to the much higher vapor pressure of the hot water?  

The pump will be more likely to cavitate when located between the boiler
and the chiller since it's pumping near boiling wort.  OTHO, there's alot
of friction loss in all that chiller tubing.  A solution might be to make
the chiller as a tall coil with the pump at floor level so that you have a
bit more static head.  


c.d. pritchard  cdp at chattanooga.net
Web Page: http://home.chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:22:43 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: WYeast 1338


Fred,

Have you looked in the BRD for their #? or perhaps the Market Guide?

>>Have a question about Wyeast 1338 being a very different yeast than it
>>was a few months ago.  Wyeast seems to have an unlisted phone number.

Mark

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:55:00 -0800 (PST)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: Re: parti-gyle definition

Loren Crow takes an admirable stab at defining parti-gyle brewing to the
collective based on the Encyclopedic definition of gyle, but misses the
mark. I'm no expert on the topic, but according to an article I read in
Brewing Techniques (on the web at www.brewingtechniques.com) parti-gyle is
the process of making a "big" beer and a successive "small" beer from the
first, second, and sometimes third runnings from your mash. I believe Randy
Mosher wrote the article in BT, and he said that he usually draws the first
third of the runoff to create a high gravity beer, and then uses the second
two-thirds to create a normal gravity beer. In fact, this is apparently how
the original Belgian beer designations tripel, dubbel, and single were
made: based on the first second and third runnings from the mash. HTH, see
BT's web page for more info.

Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew



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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:43:49 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: Lab stuff 

Another followup to the WST thread  . . .

Spoke to Dr. Paul Farnsworth this evening; he's back from Tahiti.  He
does have additional copies of his lab manual and supplies of actidione
solution (and 0.22 micron syringe filters and other labware) for sale.
You can reach Paul at 210.695.2547.  Just be sure and give him lots
of grief about having to do a brewery installation in such a horrible
place . . . .

Speaking of labware, I have found a great source of labware at el cheapo
prices -- Cynmar Corporation.  They have great prices on about everything.
For example: a current special is for 12 300ml Pyrex Erlenmeyer flasks
(perfect size for WST) for $19.50 -- about half of what you'll pay through
VWR or most other places.  Student grade (Kimax) 1000ml flasks can be
had for $27.00 for 6 -- again, less than half of the usual price.  Plus a
selection of reagents, media (lab-grade agar, peptone, TSA, etc.), and
other nifty stuff (like LP bunsen burners for $6).  And they'll happily sell to
individuals and take credit cards.  You can reach them at 1.800.223.3517.
Their web page is pretty anemic, but is at:

www.cynmar.com

Get their catalog -- it's worth the effort.  No financial connection; just a
very satisfied customer, yadda yadda yadda.

And watch this space for a major announcement from the MCAB about
Qualifying Events . . . coming soon to an HBD near you!  You'll hear it
here first!

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at phoenix.net


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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:48:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Richard Gardner <rgardner at papillion.ne.us>
Subject: RE:  Homegrown hops

Don H Van Valkenburg wrote:

> I don't think you can just pick them and throw in the kettle, as some say
they did.  

Well, Bert Grant does! (Probably the oldest still open brewpub in the
country.)  This year he celebrated 15 years of pub brewing out of Yakima WA,
and produced "Fresh Hop Ale," which was also served at the GABF in Denver.
This extremely hoppy beer is made from hops that were used soon after
picking, WITHOUT being dried.  I specifically asked Bert Grant in Denver if
the hops were dried first, and he said they weren't.  Cascades were used, 5%
b/v.  It was quite a popular beer at the festival, recognizing that this is
no guarantee of quality.

This new brew is described in several recent brewing articles, including the
Oct/Nov Celebrator Beer News (pg. 19).  However, I would not necessarily
recommend this style of brewing myself; it all depends on the style of beer
you are making and I doubt you could make a good Pilsner from wet Saaz hops
(it might be a good beer, but not in style).



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