---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Justify it? You're kidding, right? (Some Guy)
  To hop or not to hop... ("Kostelac, John")
  Vienna Malt (jwaller)
  cabbage/lager yst/oxygen/grapefruity/oxygenation/cherries/starters (Al Korzonas)
  more pumps ("Ted Hull")
  re: Barleywine Conditioning ("Riedel, Dave")
  Re:Justifying Beer Making (Brian S Kuhl)
  Re: Justifying Beer Making ("Mark S. Johnston")
  Roller Mill ? ("Joe Sullivan")
  RE: Justifying Beer Making ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Re: Three weeks ofbubbles! ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Re: Parti-gyle (Spencer W Thomas)
  Want to leave bottles in the dust (Steven Verdekel)
  Justifiying home brewing ("Andrew J. Londo")
  Calif. Lager yeast (Wyeast 2112) (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
  Malt Vinegar (Bob and Susie Stovall)
  siphon diameter (Eugene Sonn)
  Solera Beer (Jeff Renner)
  Cleaning Blowoff hoses... ("Tkach, Christopher")
  Beer Engines ("Gabrielle Palmer")
  re: Justifying Beer Making / simple sparging tip (Martin A. Gulaian)
  Re: simple sparging tip (Martin A. Gulaian)
  Justifying expense ("Rock Lucas")
  Re: CO2 (Oliver Weatherbee)
  boiled grains and corn sugar (Mike York)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:17:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Justify it? You're kidding, right?  

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your unjustifiable lager....

Back when I just brewed, I caught grief about the time involved. But 
they liked the brews, and recognized the expense if I had bought beer 
intead of ingredients.

Then I started inventing and creating new toys. I caught grief about the
expense of failed designs, good designs, and the time to brew.  But they
liked the brews, and recognized the expense if I had bought beer intead of
ingredients. 

Then I developed my homepage. Any guesses? Well, they still liked the
beer, anyway. How the web page improved or contributed to that was beyond
their comprehension. 

The Home Brew Flea Market started gobbling ticks, and I was asked to be a
beer "maven" on AOL.  Brewing stopped nibbling at my free time and started
taking bites out of it. They still liked the beer - when I got a chance to
actually brew any... 


Computer components and software became financial burdens of my hobby.
Then I took on the Digest... 

Now, my hobby slurps time from the clock wholesale and Kim's pretty much a
beer-widow. When I'm not online, she just leans my rotting corpse up in a
corner next to the rarely-used Pico system and goes about her business. 

And the dogs don't bother with me anymore.

The children? They smile at me and nod knowingly. You see, they understand
the concept of toys. Brief clouds of confusion cross their brow when asked
what their daddy does for a living. "Oh! He's a peripheral!" 

At least they still like the beer... 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brewing Page              http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
Harvest THESE: president at whitehouse.gov vice.president at whitehouse.gov 
               consumerline at ftc.gov 



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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:31:53 -0600
From: "Kostelac, John" <John.Kostelac at COMPAQ.com>
Subject: To hop or not to hop...

I am seeking recipes without hops or with very mild hops qualities. I
personally am not excited by hops and my wife is allergic to them so we
would like to brew without. I understand that hops provide some
preservative  qualities and flavor, but do they do anything else? What
am I losing by not using them? What can be used in there place? If you
have any recipes, I'd love to hear them. Thanks.

John

I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because
I hate vegetables.

John.Kostelac at compaq.com
JKostalot at aol.com



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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:04:39 -0600
From: jwaller at reveregroup.com
Subject: Vienna Malt


I'm planning to brew a Vienna style.  Reading thru the 'Vienna, Martez,
Octoberfest' book from the classic beer styles series, it recommends not
using Vienna malt because it is of low quality.  Has this changed since the
printing of the book?  Has anyone used Vienna malt successfully?  Any good
all grain recipes?  BTW I am new to HBD, hope this is not a repeat.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:17:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: cabbage/lager yst/oxygen/grapefruity/oxygenation/cherries/starters

Paul writes (somehow I missed it until John quoted him):
>>Now I've heard of beers having a vegetative presence, but doesn't 
>>that usually refer to the cooked corn or cabbage aromas of 
>>insufficient diacetyl reduction?  

Cooked corn is usually dimethyl sulfide (DMS) whereas diacetyl is
buttery or butterscotch.

In response John wrote:
>In my experience, some hops can also produce a definate vegetative 
>prescence, especially when lots of whole hops are used.  My most 

I tend to agree, but I think that if the hops are not too green (in
which case I think you get a "grassy" character) or too stale (which
is where I think some of the cabbage-like aromas can come) they should
give pleasant aromas... *eventually*.  I noticed a few times that with
some hops (once with EKG and another time with Willamette, in recent
memory) the beer smelled vegetive at first, but the aroma became more
as expected after two weeks.

***
Dave writes:
>It looks like my cellar temperature will drop to about 56-58F over the
>winter.  Wyeast lists the following fermentation ranges:
>
>2124 Bohemian		46-54 F
>2206 Bavarian		48-58 F
>2278 Czech Pils		48-68 F
>2308 Munich		48-56 F

>Secondly,  I'll probably make a Czech Pils, a Vienna or Marzen 
>and a Dunkel (maybe a Helles Bock instead).  Which of the above
>yeasts would be recommended for this list of brews?  Any hope of

In my experience, the 2278 and 2308 are more sulphury and these aromas
take longer to lager-out.  I made one of my best lagers with 2308 but
it smelled like home perm solution for four months (at 40F) after which
the smell went away and the beer won several ribbons.  I think that all
four are great yeasts, but the latter two take more lagering.  I've
read where the 2124 is the most popular strain used in Bavarian
commercial breweries.

***
Ray writes regarding big oxygen tanks:
>tank filled for $25, I get my 20 lb tank filled for $12.  Quite a price 

I'd like to point out that oxygen can be dangerous.  I don't know if
1 cubic foot is less dangerous than 50 cubic feet, but I would suspect
it is.  The risk (as I understand it) is that if the oxygen leaks
near something that is highly flammable...

Could someone that knows more give us the relative risks of storing
a large bottle of oxygen in the house?

Do a web search for "liquid oxygen AND grill" -- hilarious, but dangerous.

***
Charles writes that he feels Cascades are "piney" whereas Chinook
"grapefruity."

I get grapefruity from both when they are fresh, although the Cascade
are more grapefruity (to my nose) than the Chinook.  Furthermore, I've
aged a number of varieties of hops for pLambic brewing and the aged/
oxidized Cascades were very "piney."

***
John writes:
>>Bottom line, my fermentation took 24 HOURS to get going! That's much

>In a recent BT article on aeration from various sources, the author 
>made the point that worts with higher disolved oxygen levels actually 
>have longer lag times.  This is because the yeast respire longer.

Firstly, I thought we had convinced everyone that brewer's yeast don't
respire (for all intents and purposes) in wort (Crabtree effect).
Secondly, as a datapoint, I've cut my lag times in half since I started
using oxygen.  I suspect weak or somehow abused yeast.  For example,
pitching the yeast starter into wort that's more than 10F colder will
shock the yeast and can result in long lag times (24 hours is a long
lag time).  I've lost the original post, but 1 liter really should be
about the minimum starter size you should use in a 5 gallon batch of
ale (2 liters for a lager).

That article, while written by the respected and prize-winning brewer
Dennis Davison, had incredible formatting problems in the tables.
This resulted in a lot of what appeared to be contradictory data.
Dennis has an updated table on his website, but frankly, I read it
and *still* thought the data didn't make sense... maybe it's me.  I
urge you to not try to draw any conclusions from the data in the table
that was in Brewing Techniques.

>I don't think stirring has anything to do with it.  I think you added 
>more O2 than perhaps you should have.

AJ pretty much proved that you can't overoxygenate wort.  He posted
this about a year and a half ago.

>Less O2. :)  One 30 second blast is probably quite sufficient.  In 
>Ray Daniels' book Designing Great Beers he points out that despite 
>yeasts known requirement for O2, many homebrews make fabulous beer 
>with minimal aeration....Based on my own experience it is possible to 
>over oxygenate the wort, perhaps not technically, but from a 
>practical point of view.  If your lag time is 24 hours and your yeast 
>were in good shape, cut back on the O2 until you get what you 
>consider to be acceptable lag times.

I have to disagree.  While good beer can be made with underoxygenated
wort, it's not recommended by anyone (except one reference to intentional
underoxygenation but this is with overpitching -- Noonan's Scotch Ale book)

I suggest you re-evaluate the size and health of your starter and the
temperature differential between the starter and wort.  Also, you can't
make the starter weeks in advance, let the yeast settle and sit there
starving and expect them to restart on a dime...

***
John writes:
>     fermentation (the beer is already in primary).  The cherries I am 
>     getting are already frozen.  After I thaw them, do I have to 
>     pasturize the cherries or since the beer will be finished with 
>     primary fermentation can I add them directly to the secondary 
>     fermenters without contamination problems?  

Freezing is not likely to kill much of the microbiota on the cherries.
You can skip the pasteurization and take your chances, but the odds of
sourness from at least a little bacterial activity are pretty high.

>     I was going to put the cherries (zip lock bag included) into near 
>     boiling water to pasturize them, but the individual I am getting 
>     them from said I would not need to do this since they have been 
>     frozen?

I suggest taking them out of the bag, mushing them up and then heating
this mush to between 140 and 150F for 10 minutes.  There is no guarantee
that the interior cherries will be at 140F or that the exterior cherries'
pectins are not set (actually, I've recently read that the issue is
that the fruit has pectinase and when this is denatured, the pectins
cloud the wort -- anyone know for sure?).

***
Dave writes:
>> I hate dumping off the liquid before
>> I pitch because there
>>are so many yeast cells suspended in it.
>
>If it is an Ale yeast and most lager yeasts,
>just put the starter in the refrigerator overnight
>and you can pour off most of the liquid
>before you pitch. Especially if your last sugar
>addition is 24 hours before you pitch

I think this is very bad advice.  Putting the starter into the fridge
can (and is very likely to) temperature shock the yeast out of suspension,
yes, and then they take a rather long time to recover.  A sudden
drop in temperature can even kill a significant percentage of the
yeast.  Here's how I do it if I have the time: make a starter three
weeks in advance, let it settle, pour off the spent wort, add more
wort, let it settle, pour off the spent wort, add more wort... use
this just past high kraeusen.  You end up pitching something like
3 liters *worth* of starter, but only add 1 liter of partially-spent
wort into the beer.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 10:40:21 EST
From: "Ted Hull" <THull at brwncald.com>
Subject: more pumps

Dave Burley's question:

>>>Doesn't the high temperature of the water on the boiler side 
cause cavitation more so than the cooler side due to the much 
higher vapor pressure of the hot water?  Also wouldn't the 
materials of construction of the pump be happier at the cooler 
temperatures?<<<

Was addressed well by Bob Sutton (tongue wagging and not in 
cheek):
>>Probably - it depends...<<

However, a couple of other points:

1) THE BIGGIE: You can painstakingly calculate the losses 
through your piping, chiller, etc for the various flows and 
static heads (not to mention using a variable speed setup). You 
can figure available NPSH if you know water vapor pressure and 
atmospheric pressure too. But you won't be able to find out the 
required NPSH for these little pumps from the 
manufacturer/vendor. They're just too little, and the curve 
might not be real pleasing if you saw it (up, down, and all over 
the place). 

2) It may not be a problem. If you're pump is cavitating, it'll 
sound like you're pumping marbles. You turn it off and know that 
you need to change something. It doesn't instantly destroy the 
pump and hopefully you'll try it out with water (esp. the hot 
kind) before pumping wort.

3) As for materials, I'd go with 200 F or higher rated, anyway, 
for flexibility. You could pump sparge water (170 F) or infusion 
water for step mashing (non RIMS types) with no problem. And the 
additional cost (from glancing at U.S. Plastics and Moving 
Brews) is $40 max for a 220+ F rated pump. A 200 F pump might 
even work fine for near-boiling water; or you could always throw 
an immersion chiller (even a tiny one) in for about a minute to 
drop the wort to 200 F. 

4) With a magnetic drive pump, you don't have to worry about 
seals, they're aren't any. That's why it's good for 
food/sanitary applications.

Bottom line: I'd spend a little bit more on a pump that's rated 
for the higher temp and put it between my kettle and chiller. It 
might still work fine after the chiller, but I'd rather have the 
extra flexibility of a higher temp rated pump at slightly higher 
expense.

That's all,

Ted Hull
Atlanta, GA



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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:43:48 -0800
From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at dfo-mpo.gc.ca>
Subject: re: Barleywine Conditioning

There has been talk of late regarding barleywines.  Here's my 
recent experience:

Made 3 gallons of 1.099 Barleywine using the first
runnings of a 20 pound mash (HB Pale Ale and 80L Crystal).
Pitched 1/2 of the primary dregs of a 5 gallon batch of IPA:
Wyeast 1056.  Aerated by shaking the carboy VIGOROUSLY.  
(Note: 3 gals in 5 gal carboy)

Fermented at 65-66F for 11 days in primary, swirled to 
re-suspend yeast daily over last 7 days (once yeast started to
shows signs of dropping out).  Keep in mind, my lag time was
on the order of 1-2 hrs - a typical 5 gal batch would likely take
longer to begin to settle out.

Racked into secondary onto unfined dregs of 1056 from a batch
parallel to the barleywine (the second runnings).  This step may
not have been necessary (the SG had dropped to 1.020 in the
primary).  

One month later, bottled into 7 oz bottles with a fresh yeast
culture of 1056 (built up to approx. 5-6 cups of 1.063; added slurry
to bottling bucket with BW and priming sugar).  Final gravity
of 1.019.  Allowed to bottle ferment for 1 month at 64F, before tasting.

Carbonation seems about right.  Flavour is intensely malty!  Quite
an experience.  Obviously this was more work than your basic PA,
but so far it's worth it.  I hope this info helps somebody with plans
to do a barleywine.

cheers,
Dave Riedel, Victoria, BC, Canada


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 16:34:00 PST
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Re:Justifying Beer Making

Ken Lee wrote about justifying his brewing expenses to his wife.

This sound like a big problem for you. I wish you well in your struggles.
As for me, I justify the expense not as a way to get beer cheaper. Contrarily, 
for me, it is a hobby, a personal quest to make something better and better. The
expense is secondary. Don't get me wrong either; I survive month to month like 
most people. Try to justify your passion this way... Does your wife have hobbies
that she spends money on? If she is like many people, shopping could be hers. 
You should be free enough to pursue something in life that gives you enjoyment. 
Brewing in comparison to many hobbies is extremely inexpensive!
May good brews be yours,
Brian

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:26:34 -0500
From: "Mark S. Johnston" <msjohnst at talon.net>
Subject: Re: Justifying Beer Making

>I wanted to know how others that read this digest, can justify the
>expense to their spouses?  

Ken,
	Not to gloat, but I don't really have this problem. Homebrewing for me is
a hobby. I never got into it with the intention of making cheap beer. I
enjoy brewing flavorful beers, while trying to perfect the craft and
produce a paragon of a classic style. It serves as a creative outlet, the
fruits of which just happen to be consumable.
	My wife is quite undrstanding about the whole thing. I have never
proposed any goal to her regarding the brewing beyond my enjoyment of it.
(An enjoyment she questions every time I curse a boilover.) With no
expectations beyond enjoying a hearty ale with dinner, she can't fault me
with failing at it or misleading her in any way, intentionally or not.
	As to the expense, the time, the failures, etc., like any hobby, there is
an investment in time and materials. Be it fly fishing, trap shooting,
stamp collecting, golf, woodworking, gardening, music, or any other hobby
you can think of, it most likely won't be free. As with any hobby, it will
also become somewhat addictive. As you get good, you want to be better.
This takes more/better equipment and materials, more advanced publications
and references, and perhaps even a bit more time now and again to do it
right.
	Obviously, like any addiction, some control must be exercised. You can't
blow the rent on a RIMS system -- after all, where will you put it? And if
this is one of a dozen different "hobbies" that keep you apart six nights
a week, then you may wish to prioritize your life a bit. But if your
discretionary income is spent on something you do once or twice a month,
what's the problem? 
	I would therefore suggest that you approach homebrewing as the hobby it
is and not for some budgetary advantage, and talk with your wife about
your hobby and the enjoyment you get from it. If she enjoys the fruits of
your labor for what they are, she shouldn't begrudge you a few hours a
month to create them.
	Good luck.
- -- 
"If a man is not a liberal at eighteen, he has no heart. If he is not a
conservative by the time he is thirty, he has no mind."  - Winston
Churchill


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 23:00:12 PST
From: "Joe Sullivan" <jpsully at erols.com>
Subject: Roller Mill ?

Hi all,

I've been thinking about building a rolller mill, but it seems that getti=
ng inexpensive rollers is one hurdle.  Has anyone tried using two retired=
 CO2 bottles?  I know they drill a hole in them if they fail a pressure =
test,  the 10 lb bottle is roughly 6" in diameter,  and one end is alread=
y threaded.  I'm sure these old bottles are availiable in scrap yards, =
or where they fill the bottles.

It just seems to me that the other end could be drilled out and a shaft =
pushed through the center, and crush up that grain! ! !  There are probab=
ly a hundred reasons not to do this, but I think I'll try it anyway.

If anyone has tried this, or any other cheap alternative please let me =
know!

On another note, just a shameless plug for Bill Stewart at Moving Brews =
(no affiliation, blah blah) - great  prices, great advice, from a guy who=
 knows his products, knows about brewing, and is really helpful.  If you =
need a pump, fittings etc. check em out at:

http://www.ays.net/movingbrews/

A day without the HBD is like a day without a homebrew.

Joe Sullivan
jpsully at erols.com
Boston, Mass


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:58:46 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Justifying Beer Making

	Ken Lee ponders the question of Justifying Beer Making.  I'm really new =
to the brewing scene, having only made my 5th batch recently. At first I =
started with the idea of saving money. At this point, I'm reasonably =
sure that I am, in fact, saving. I even go so far as to total up my =
consumable expenses to see what that bottle of beer cost me. I don't try =
to figure in equipment, labor or fuel (gas or electic). I'm content =
knowing I made a good beer for about 50 cents each. Pretty reasonable =
for the end product! BUT...my equipment expenses have been limited to =
that needed for extract brewing.=20
	I'm beginning, however, to view this more as a hobby. To do otherwise =
makes it seem too much like work. Everyone should have a pasttime they =
enjoy. It relieves stress and provides a source a satisfaction not found =
in daily routines like work or household maintenance, etc. You brew =
because you want to, not because it provides a paycheck or is a =
necessary chore of home (or auto) ownership.
	Would your spouse take the same stance if you decided to make pasta =
from scratch, or a pie or any other commodity readily available in a =
supermarket? Likely not.
	Viewed as a hobby, you are not only making your life more pleasant but =
you end up with something that allows you to knock off one item from the =
grocery list! And if you bought good microbrew...well you know how much =
that costs!
	The only complaint I've gotten so far is that my brewing seems to leave =
a slight residue all over. I use the stove exhaust fan but until I can =
brew outdoors, that's the best I can do (no basement),  The spouse needs =
to lighten up (unless you are taking budgeted money needed for bills) =
and be as happy as you are that you have such a fruitful hobby.

mike aka "don't tell your spouse where I live" 

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:12:59 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Three weeks ofbubbles!

	Matthew Stierheim questioned the length of fermentation on his first =
ever batch. Well, Matt, my first batch was a honey wheat and =
fermentation was complete in less than three days. Fermentation periods =
can vary but three weeks sounds really excessive. Not only that but, =
unless you racked to a secondary container, your beer has been sitting =
on sedimented yeast way too long. You might end up with off flavors as a =
result. I'm sure you'll receive other replies more knowledgable than =
this which will explain everything in the proper context.
	If you haven't yet invested in some brew literature, I'd recommend you =
do so. You're local brew shop will have some good sources.
	Don't be so negative about starting out extract brewing. That's what =
I'm doing and it's letting me get the basics down pat (process and =
sanitization) before I try something more sofisticated. Good luch and =
don't get discouraged. You'll do just fine.

mike

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:49:50 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Parti-gyle 

Parti-gyle brewing is the practice of taking several worts of
decreasing strengths from a single mash.  The first wort is taken by
draining the mash without adding any "sparge" water.  New water is
then added to the mash and thoroughly mixed.  The mash is drained
again for the second wort.  This process can be repeated for a 3rd
wort.  The first wort yields a strong beer, the second a "normal
strength" beer, and the third a "small beer".

Randy Mosher wrote about this practice in Brewing Techniques a couple
of years ago.  I use parti-gyle brewing to make BIG beers (1.100 and
above).  I then take a second wort so as not to "waste" the remaining
sugars in the malt.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 01:03:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Verdekel <verde001 at coyote.csusm.edu>
Subject: Want to leave bottles in the dust


Having just bottled a wonderful Cherry Stout a few weeks back and figuring
out how to get more beer on the floor than in the bottles in the process,
I decided that there must be a better way.  I love brewing beer, but
lately I have determined that the bottling aspect of the hobby is, well, a
drag. 

Having graduated from the Papazian School of Brewing back in about '90, I
was kind of led into the hobby with bottling as the easiest way to go for
the beginner, so I went that route and never deviated. I have only brewed
about 15 batches in that interim, all extract. but only now have I
realized that kegging my beer is probably the best way to go. So my
question is this: What is the most economical way for a brewer take this
step? I understand that the expense is great because not only do you need
a whole keg setup, but a 'fridge to keep it in. Heck, I'm a single guy, so
I'm thinking that I can just knock a few racks out of the existing fridge
to keep the keg cold in. But what kind of starter keg should a guy who
brews infrequent 5 to 10 gallon batches get? Any suggestions would be
appreciated.

"Please God, save me from your followers!"

Steven Verdekel

Verde001 at mailhost1.csusm.edu
San Marcos, Calif.


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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:35:41 -0500
From: "Andrew J. Londo" <ajlondo at mtu.edu>
Subject: Justifiying home brewing

I guess I should consider myself lucky in that my wife likes to make home
brew with me.  We alternate between recipies she likes, and those I like.
In fact,  the home brew starter kit was her xmass gift to me a couple of
years ago.  As far as advice, I guess I would say that maybe you should make
some beers that she likes or have her get involoved in brewing with you.  It
certainly works for me.

Andy Londo
***************************************************************************
                               Andrew J. Londo
           Ph.D. Candidate in Forest Soils and Silviculture

                 School of Forestry and Wood Products
                    Michigan Technological University
                             Houghton, MI  49931
    	                       U.S.A

                       Phone:  (906) 487-2454
                           Fax:  (906) 487-2915
  	         E-mail:   ajlondo at mtu.edu

     If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes!!
***************************************************************************


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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:41:46 -0700
From: ritter at bitterroot.net (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
Subject: Calif. Lager yeast (Wyeast 2112)

I recently brewed a California Common style beer using Wyeast 2112 (Calif.
Lager) for the first time. I pitched slurry from a 1600ml starter, had a
short lag time (6 hours), kept the primary fermentation temp. at 60F, and
lagered the beer for three weeks at 38F. It still has a yeasty bite that I
find distracting. I would also describe it as a beer that tastes "green" -
my instincts tell me to keep it in the lagering fridge for another month or
so. I paged through some back issues of Zymurgy and noticed a couple of
judges comments about beers brewed with 2112 referring to "yeasty" tastes.
Is a yeasty aroma and taste characteristic of the strain?



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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:42:06 -0600
From: Bob and Susie Stovall <urbanart at netropolis.net>
Subject: Malt Vinegar

Beerlings... if the relationship of Homebrew to factory-brew is what we
all believe it to be, then is there a similar relationship between
home-made malt vinegar and factory vinegar?

The basic question evolves from the fact that we really like good
balsemic vinegar- thus can we make it better than we buy it?

How does one make malt vinegar? Is there a homebrew digest for vinegar?

thanks

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:11:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Eugene Sonn <eugene at dreamscape.com>
Subject: siphon diameter

HBDers,
	I was transfering beer from the primary to a carboy and got very
impatient waiting for the siphon to move all the beer.  I relaxed, had a
homebrew and wondered why all the racking canes I've seen have a small
diameter.  Has anyone out there seen racking canes which are wider and
therefore would move more beer per second?  I've consulted homebrew
catalogs and some shop, but to no avail. 

	Thanks in advance,

	Eugene
	eugene at nova.dreamscape.com


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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:13:14 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Solera Beer

Brewers

In the Jerez region of Spain, sherry is made by a blending process called a
solera, in which a portion of the sherry in small casks is transferred to
larger ones and is replaced with new sherry, these larger casks having
themselves having been partly emptied into still larger casks, and this
pattern repeated until one very large vessel contains a blend of "married"
sherries, a small portion of which is very old.  In the solera process, old
sherry is said to "educate" the new, resulting is quicker maturing and a
very uniform product year to year.  Soleras are dated to their foundation,
and if you buy a bottle of sherry from a solera established in 1802, then a
very tiny amount of your wine is actually that old.  Maybe a few molecules,
but the effect overall is a very mature wine, more than its actual average
age.

I have a simplified version of this for strong ales.  It was established in
1994, when I made an OG 1.086 all pale ale malt English-style barley wine.
It was disappointingly flabby from having no dark grains at all.  It needed
that bite that they give, so when I made a porter (1.051) (or was it a
brown ale? - the porter judges said it was, but the brown ale judges said
it was a porter), I blended the last gallon with 3-1/2 gallons of the pale
barley wine in a 5 gallon Cornelius tank.  This really balanced the flabby
sweetness of the BW.  I think it became an "old ale" at this point.  I've
subsequently blended in the last of several other ales, two bitters and
maybe a little stout, as I recall, and it justs keeps getting better.

I've left this alone for the most part in a 50-60F cellar, drawing off a
glass every month or two.  It continues to produce C02, so I've left it off
the tank, and have even had to vent it occasionally.  This blend has gone
through some stages which were better than others.  A year or two ago it
developed an old rubber smell from yeast autolysis, but this has
disappeared, presumably as some microflora utilized the spilled yeast
innards.  (Fine old French Champagne has autolysed yeast in the bottle,
after all).  It seems to have had a very light lactic tang months ago that
never got stronger, and has actually submerged into the complexity now.

I drew a glass last evening for the first time since last winter and was
blown away.  Wow!  No autolysis at all, but a rich, malty, complex,
strangely very fresh (the acids?) tasting winey ale, with orangey Cointreau
notes (I used lots of sticky EK Goldings as late additions on the original
BW).

I have about a gallon of this left, and it's great.  I could just enjoy it
this winter, but instead I think I'll brew another strong ale and let the
old one "educate" the new one.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:59:45 -0500
From: "Tkach, Christopher" <tkach at ctron.com>
Subject: Cleaning Blowoff hoses...

Ok, I've seen a lot of discussion recently (both in HBD and rcb)
about how to go about cleaning out a blowoff hose.  I just want
to share a bit of knowledge that I came across a few years
ago (I actually think it was from rcb).

I clean my blowoff hose(s) by wading up a piece of bathroom
tissue or kleenex (but make sure it doesn't have anything in
it like creams), wetting it so its a soggy mess, stuff it into the
blowoff hose, making sure that it fits in there real snug-like.
I then attach the hose to my water hose (but I suppose a
bottle washer would work as well, maybe even the facet itself)
and blast the soggy tissue through the hose.  Repeat as
necessary until all the gunk has been cleaned out.  It may
help to soak the hose in some b-brite (or something similar)
to soften things up.  I'm not sure how good it works for the larger
diameter hoses (I use a 3/8" hose for blowoff, I know, I know,
I'm asking for trouble...but that's not what this post is about).

Anyway, hope this helps at least one person....

 - Chris
Newmarket, NH

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:48:33 -0500
From: "Gabrielle Palmer" <gpalmer6 at ford.com>
Subject: Beer Engines

I posted this query to r.c.b. but didn't get any responses, so I'm
hoping that ya'll can help...

I have been considering the idea of making my own beer engine.
I found an article in the May 1996 issue of Brew Your Own that
describes a way to build your own beer engine for under $50.

Has anyone here ever tried this?  How did it turn out?  Can you
recommend any other articles or web sites that would have any
additional information?  Thanks for your help.
- --
Cheers!
Gabrielle Palmer
Ford Vehicle Operations - Die Design Standards Department
Cube:  GB-M71             Building: Product Development Center
Phone: (313)594-2107      PROFS ID: GPALMER6
Fax:   (313)322-4359      internet: gpalmer6 at be0962.pd3.ford.com

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:48:55 -0500 (EST)
From: mag6 at po.CWRU.Edu (Martin A. Gulaian)
Subject: re: Justifying Beer Making / simple sparging tip

Doug Moyer writes:

>Ken Lee asks:
>"I wanted to know how others that read this digest, can justify the
>expense to their spouses?"
>
>My wife and I justify equipment costs as follows: the cost of the
>ingredients vs. the cost of the micros that I would otherwise purchase
>is the _savings_ in our "food" budget. The cost of the equipment and the
>time I spend are part of my _hobby_. As has been discussed quite often
>recently, this hobby allows all levels of participation.

I'm probably in a tiny minority on this list, but... I'm a lazy
non-hobbyist all-grain brewer. Brewing from grain probably adds a couple of
hours to the brew day, but it's mostly just elapsed time, not effort. I let
it rest, let it sparge, let it come to a boil - while doing other things. 

And there doesn't have to be a lot of cost to justify - I do split boils in
cheap 5 gallon stainless pots (I just saw some for $16.99 at Marc's if you
are in the Cleveland area), I mash in the brew kettle in a styrofoam lined
box, I lauter in a plastic pail with a false bottom (no cost at all there). 
I grind my grain in my burr-type coffee grinder; I'm sure it's suboptimal
but it works and I don't have to pay for a malt mill.  And so on. 

If it becomes a hobby it gets expensive, but if your goal is just to make
good beer you can keep your tastebuds and bank account happy together.

>of her hobbies. I have a cheap ($400) mountain bike. It's a good thing
>that I don't get into that hobby to the same extent as I do brewing--I
>have friends spending thousands on their bikes!

Yep! Mountain biking IS my hobby. I spend $1000/year on it easy, not
counting the big expenses like going racing for the weekend...


- --
Marty Gulaian - mag6 at po.cwru.edu

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:57:25 -0500 (EST)
From: mag6 at po.CWRU.Edu (Martin A. Gulaian)
Subject: Re: simple sparging tip

Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com> wrote:
>
>I wrote:
>> Last time I brewed, an interested friend was helping out, and 
>> suggested just floating a tupperware lid on the grain!  I just poured 
>> the water onto the lid and it kept the grain from being disturbed.  
>> It worked like a champ, and freed up a hand!
>     
[...]
>
>The idea that I didn't explain properly (sorry) is that, if you keep the
>sparge water level above the level of the grain, that the plastic lid
>will float on top of the layer of water, keeping you from disturbing the
>grain.  This would not encourage channeling.
>
>Cross section of later tun:
>
>      ||                  ||
>      ||    .________.    || <-- plastic lid floating on top
>      ||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|| <-- sparge water
>      ||oooooooooooooooooo|| <-- top of grain
>      ||oooooooooooooooooo||
>      ||oooooooooooooooooo||

I punched a bunch of small holes into a styrofoam plate that I float on the
water.  I just pour the water onto it, and it breaks up the downpour into
little bitty streams.  I don't think it channels anything (I picture
it channeling the spirit of the goddess Ninkasi (was that her name)
from ancient Sumeria to my grain bed...)

- --
Marty Gulaian - mag6 at po.cwru.edu

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:19:18 -0600
From: "Rock Lucas" <lucaer at iols.com>
Subject: Justifying expense

Ken Lee asks about justifying the expense of home brewing...

I told my wife the same thing...it would be cheaper, better beer. I got =
the same reaction, i.e., how much money have you spent on this damned =
hobby so far?

My initial instict was to respond with some witty comeback, like ... =
Gee, I don't know, how much have you spent on panty hose this year?

She goes through a lot of panty hose.

However, I have now ceased all attempts to justify the cost because of =
something that happened on Halloween weekend. We were at a party, and =
someone handed her a Miller Lite, which used to be her beer of choice. =
She took a sip, turned to me and said, "You know, this stuff sucks. =
You've ruined me."=20

The bitching is now about the smell and mess, but now I don't have to =
justify the expense of the propane burner and keg conversion necessary =
to move the brewing activity to the garage.=20

Rock Lucas
Bigger Hammer Brewing Co., V. Ltd.





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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:18:37 -0500
From: oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu (Oliver Weatherbee)
Subject: Re: CO2


Tom Clark asked about using the primary fermentation to purge the
secondary vessel with CO2 (HBD #2561). I often do this. What I
do is use two carboys and two of those orange "universal" caps.
I run tubing from the cap thats on the primary (the second hole
is capped) to one of the holes on the cap secured to the empty 
sanitized secondary. An airlock is placed on the secondary. I
find this arrangement provides the ability to rack to the secondary
without risk of oxydation. I should also point out that I use
6.8 gallon carboys for which I believe St. Patricks homebrew supply
is the only place to get the orange caps that fit. The ones at
most homebrew shops only fit the 5 gallon carboys.

If you do a primary in your bucket, you can still purge your secondary
by making a simple CO2 generator. Just take a 2-liter soda bottle, and
drill a small hole in the cap. Use some DAP silicon sealant (or something
similar) to secure a small diameter tubing of maybe 3 or 4 feet
through the cap. You can use cheap aquarium tubing for this. Just add
a sugar solution (table sugar is fine) and yeast (bread yeast is fine)
and run the tubing to your sanitized carboy.

There are lots of ways to do this if you don't have a CO2 tank, how about
using your starter to purge the carboy. I have a soda bottle "generator"
because that's what I used to use for my aquarium when I was growing live
plants. I also used to connect my fermenting carboys up to the aquarium
as well. CO2 is great, use it!

________________________________________________________
Oliver Weatherbee		First State Brewers			
	
  http://triton.cms.udel.edu/~oliver/firststate/
________________________________________________________

		

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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:20:18
From: Mike York <myork at asheboro.com>
Subject: boiled grains and corn sugar

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:25:22 -0800
From: Charley Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re: boiled grains and corn sugar, no chilling required

Mike York writes in hbd #2560 that he agrees that rapid chilling of wort
is not necessary to make great beer. Then he goes on to describe his
recipe for a great beer including:

"...boiled specialty grains and corn sugar...". 

Well, I agree with Mike, no amount of chilling will improve a beer with
this process and ingredients. Mike - try using DME instead of corn sugar
and try steeping the grains in 160-170F water in a grain bag instead of
boiling them. Then try some pure liquid yeast cultures if you're at all
interested in improving the beer you make.

My $.02 worth.

Charley in N. Cal.

Charley,

Thanks for all of the suggestions.  I still don't get it.  Please be more
specific.  What is so terrible about corn sugar and bringing my "roller pin
cracked" specialty grains to a boil before sparging--then using the liquid
to mix with a can of malt extract and extra hops?

Are you saying that I should steep the specialty grain at the end of the
malt extract and extra hops boil--before sparging and dumping the carboy?

Always learning something new.

Mike

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