---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  water chemistry... is this going to work? (Dave Riedel)
  Dark malts and mash efficiencies (Chasman)
  unmalted adjuncts, mead and gratitude (Chasman)
  Justify Homebrewers Digest (Jason Henning)
  New "ESB" Recipe ("Neal Parker")
  Care and feeding of microscopes (Steve Potter)
  Water, Malt, Yeast (RUSt1d?)
  Insulating keg tun / Approval ratings (David S Draper)
  Re: Jeff Renner's request-I  2nd (Terry Dornbos)
  Brewery design considerations ("Myers, John")
  calibrating hydrometer, porter recipes (i.brew2)
  Boiling grains (Samuel Mize)
  Cranberry useage questions (Christopher Peterson)
  tsing tao (SocialKing)
  New HBD member (tanajewski)
  Re: Sparging advice please (Kent Townley)
  Long-Term Dry-Hopping (KennyEddy)
  Identifying Yeast (Al Korzonas)
  Sparging...simplifying...eating crow... (ale)
  coffee stout and other holiday beers ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Sparging (Al Korzonas)


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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:07:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Riedel <RIEDEL at ios.bc.ca>
Subject: water chemistry... is this going to work?

I plan to brew a scotch ale this weekend.  Recently, an
IPA of mine failed to have a long bitter finish which, I 
suspect is a water chemistry problem (soft water).  So, 
I thought I might try my hand at water adjustment for 
the scotch ale.

My (Victoria, BC) water is:

Ca		5.2
SO4		3.5
Mg		1.0
Na		2.1
Cl		4.2
CO3		12
Hardness	17
Alkalinity 	16		

This water is reported as pH 7.4, but BreWater calculates
8.24??  

Using BreWater, I determined that to prepare 13 gallons of
brewing water with an appropriate 'Edinburgh' profile 
(midway between Noonan and Papazian's numbers) I would need
to add:

1.0 tsp epsom salt
0.5 tsp	baking soda
3.0 tsp chalk
0.5 tsp calcium chloride
1.5 tsp gypsum

BreWater reports this to be pH 8.33 with the following values:

Ca		114
SO4		125
Mg		10
Na		14
Cl		21
CO3		139
Hardness	326
Alkalinity	201

I am only using 1% roast barley; will the pH of my mash be way
off?  Speaking of that, I will need to add all the chalk to
the mash as it won't dissolve in plain water.  Am I going to
end up with a mash chemistry nightmare?  Comments?  Flames?

cheers,
Dave Riedel, Victoria, BC, Canada

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:34:05 -0800
From: Chasman <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: Dark malts and mash efficiencies

Jim and Charles are discussing Black or Roasted in Traquair House:

Greg Noonan mentions this in his book "Scotch Ale". Being the frugal sort,
the Scots weren't ones to waste precious materials. When malting their
barley, the "slack" barley i.e. the stuff that floated and was no good for
malting, was sent on to be roasted and used in small proportions in the
beers. Now I don't know if this is what Traquair House does but I'd bet that
it is. I've tried a Wee Heavy and I did use a small bit of Roasted (10p in
about 750). Not enought to add much color, but to provide some secondary
flavor profile. Most of the color in Scotch ales, as well as the flavor
comes from kettle carmelization during an extended boil (2-3 or more hours).

Bob and Rob are discussing mash efficiencies:

>Rob Kienle asked about efficiencies for a stout recipe where he looked for
>a gravity o 1.072 using 30 lbs of grain for a 12 gal batch
>
>Rob, you got a total extraction rate of 25.5 pts per lb per gal. using a
>total of 30 lbs of grain & adjuncts for a 12 gal batch and you were looking
>for a 1.072 OG 
>
>>From pale ale malt (since you use a similar system to me) you should get 31
>to 34, depending on brand and lot. I'd expect about 10 - 15 pts per lb for
>the dark grains
>
>pale ale 20 X 32 = 640
>dark	   7 X 12 =  84
>flaked	   3 X 25? = 75
>Total	          = 814/12 gal = OG of 66.5
>
>You didn't say how low your OG was. but the above is about what I would
>expect approximating your recipe

I disagree. I dislike discussions like this because we are talking apples
and oranges, you and I. When discussing malt yields, I base my calculations
on the theoretical yield from the malt in pounds of sugar per pound of
malt. The max theoretical yield for 2-row barley is about 80%, for wheat
malt, a little higher at 82% (does vary slightly by lot). While I see alot
of folks use all kinds of values for different specialty grains, I don't
see the point. Unless you have malt analysis on a lot by lot basis it's all
speculation anyways and when you're giving a range of 4-5 points per pound,
why bother. I lump them all together into one yield and one calculation and
I'm never off on S.G. by more than a degree if at all. The lower
contribution by the specialty malts (it's not *that* much lower anyways) is
neglible. In "Brewing", Dr. Lewis gives the following values for malt :

Typical extract values(P/kG dry basis)

Malt			Extract	Color
- -----------------------------------------
Crystal		268		200
Carapils		260		30
Amber			275		50
Chocolate		270		1000
Roasted Malt (black)	265		1200
Roasted Barley	270		1350
Pale Ale
 or Lager Malt	302		3


Thus, using an equation found in the same book:

Yield% = (O.G. x W x P x K)
         ------------------
                 M

Where O.G. is the original gravity
      W is the weight of a unit of water (BBLs = 258, Gal = 8.32)
      p is gravity in Plato
      K is knockout volume in BBL or Gal (volume at end of boil)
      M is weight of all malts

Thus, rearranging and using a yield value of 69% which is conservative (I
get 69-72% both at home and at the brewpub) we get the following ( it is
unclear wether 12 gallons is the knockout or pre-boil volume so I'll give
it for both assuming a 10% volume loss during a 90min boil):

M= (1.072 x 8.32 x 18 x 12)   =  27.9 pounds of grain
   ------------------------
             69

or

M= (1.072 x 8.32 x 18 x 10.8) = ~25 pounds of grain
    ------------------------
               69

Since the O.G. was lower than this using more grain, there is a problem in
either the conversion process, the sparge process or the malts. I
periodically get malt lots that give hella low yields. When a new lot comes
in, they jump right back up, sometimes 3-4%. Make sure that you are giving
a sufficient length of time for the mash rest and bone up on your sparge
techniques.


C--

Charles Hudak in San Diego, California (Living large in Ocean Beach!!)
cwhudak at adnc.com
ICQ# 4253902
"If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs."
- --David Daye



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:36:49 -0800
From: Chasman <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: unmalted adjuncts, mead and gratitude

George writes about using unmalted adjuncts in extract beers:

>   Several of their *extract* kits contained unmalted adjuncts, like 
>     flaked barley and oats.  I would have thought this quite appropriate 
>     in a pLambic (pseudo-Lambic) kit, but these kits were for stouts!
>     
>     Every now and then somebody writes into this digest with a recipe that 
>     will put starch into the final beer.  Perhaps this practice is so 
>     widespread because respected distributors encourage it!

Not only unmalted adjuncts but malted as well!! I get homebrewers coming
into the pub with recipes all the time and they are using carapils, munich,
vienna and other malts in their extract beers. Remember that the only malts
that you can use without mashing are crystal malts and color malts (black,
roasted, chocolate). If you are going to use malts like munich, you *must*
steep at mashing temp (145-160) or you will be putting starch into your
beer. Many of these guys are throwing them in the boil or steeping them at
170+ a sure recipe for problem beers.

I've notice this too, but I just shake my head and turn the page. Thanks
George for pointing it out. I've noticed a tendency for some homebrewstores
to give out really crappy info ("the yeast doesn't affect the flavor at
all...it doesn't matter which yeast you use" I shit you not, a direct
quote). The best help we can give is education and even then it is an
ongoing process. I'd never heard the old story about Bock coming from the
bottom of the tank until I worked at a brewpub. As recently as last week, I
was talking about a Bock beer and the guys says, "Hey, isn't that the stuff
they scrape from the bottom of the tanks?" Never fails to amaze me. Scrape?
>From the bottom of the tank? And those four trashcans full of "stuff" are
the hops from my seven barrel batch.....How bitter would *that* be. It's
suprising, considering how many people drink beer, how many are entirely
clueless about the brewing process. Had a guy in last week saw me
harvesting yeast off the bottom of the fermenter and thought it was the
spent malt!
I told him "Nope those are the brewers, I'm just the nanny. All I do is
feed them and clean up their crap, feed them and clean up their crap......)
Hahaha

Keith asks about carbonation levels for sparkling meads:

Don't recall seeing any specific numbers for CO2 levels for sparkling meads
in any references but consider that you need to consider the type of mead
you are talking about. A lower gravity mead (read lighter) might benefit
from a higher carbonation level ala Champagne whereas a stronger mead or a
more strongly flavored mead might benefit from a slightly lower level.

Let's assume that Champagne is fairly carbonated, say 3-3.25 volumes, I'd
try that for a lighter mead. Try lower for a heavier mead or a more
strongly flavored one, say 2-2.5 volumes.

I don't have any Carbonation tables handy (someone has my book) so maybe Al
or someone can provide temperature pressure correlations for these volumes.
Remember that you will lose a bit of carbonation during bottling and so may
want to adjust up slightly to account for this (say 0.15 Volume).

You might also post this question to the Mead Lovers Digest. There are alot
of experienced meaders there that could provide better insight than myself.
Heck, I've only made about a dozen batches of mead; I'm quite the mead
virgin, though I do love the stuff and make it as often as I can. Try email
to: rcdraven at talisman.com  That's Dick Dunn's email (the digest janitor and
a general walking FAQ about mead) and he can help you get subscribed. Heck,
Dick probably has great insight on this question, maybe he can help you out
himself.


As a side note, I just wanted to comment on the generosity of the HBD
folks. Aside from the select few with whom I've exchanged words (some not
so kind, er words that is) (many of whom I've since come to exchange
periodic email with after we've worked out our differences ;-)   ) I've
found the folks on the digest to be wholly kind and generous in a way that
I generally (yes, I am making a generalization) don't see in the "real"
world i.e. non-cyberspace. I don't know what to attribute this to but I
have found it to be a constant no matter what forum you talk about (HBD,
MLD, etc.). Recently, a HBDer offered to send me, at his cost, some of a
particular item that I was in need of. He wanted nothing in return, he just
wanted to help out a fellow brewer. I'm just blown away by this. I've never
met the guy, never chatted over a beer, and he offers, out of the blue, to
do this for me, completely unsolicited. I choose to refrain from naming him
on the digest since it's not my call and I'd hate to see him inundated with
requests for freebies. He knows who he is and I can only hold up a beer and
toast him and folks like him that make this digest and this world a great
place.

That's all for now...

C--


Charles Hudak in San Diego, California (Living large in Ocean Beach!!)
cwhudak at adnc.com
ICQ# 4253902
"If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs."
- --David Daye



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:09:43 GMT
From: huskers at olywa.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: Justify Homebrewers Digest

Hello-

Well, we've seen quite a few post on justifying homebrewing. How about
seeing a how many of you can justify a donation to HBD.=20

Pat and the gang are a little over half way to their equipment goal. I
know a lot of us have sent donations and hope more will. If you can
justify homebrewing, I'm sure you can justify 10 or 20 bucks to make a
great forum even better.

Please help out if you can.

Cheers,
Jason Henning <huskers olywa net>
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Olympia, Washington - "It's the water"


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:09:55 -0500
From: "Neal Parker" <Neal.Parker.nsparker at nt.com>
Subject: New "ESB" Recipe

I have been trying to leverage my requests for brewing time with my SO
with hints that I can take care of the kids part time during waits in
the all-grain process.  This didn't wash with the SO for a second but my
2 1/2 year old daughter, Emilie, was pretty whipped up about helping
papa with the beer (an English Brown planned for Sunday).  So ...

She had been "helping" all morning pretending to add all sorts of
ingredients (including a whole shampoo bottle) to the mix.  Fortunately
everything was covered, corked or watched.  

I was 20 minutes from pitching.  As I'm racking into the carboys Emilie
was leaning over one open carboy and I swear I saw something fall into
the wort out of the corner of my eye.  I bellowed "Emilie just spit into
my carboy!"; which scared the heck out of her.  After intense
questioning in both official languages the accused sanitized condition
violator was released on her parents recognizance.  She continues to
state "rien" (nothing - in English) when asked what she put in the
carboy.  The fact that the accused has only just learnt how to spit did
not bode well for her but questions about the  witness' testimony and
lack of corroboration have prevented any charges from being laid.

I have renamed the brew, Emilie's Spit Brown Ale in honour of that canon
of the justice system: "innocent until proven guilty". Cap code ESB.  

:)


Neal Parker
New Product Development Engineering Group,  Nortel Microwave Modules 
Nortel North America
OTTAWA, Ontario, Canada  Tel: (613) 763-9008 (Internal: ESN393-9008)
fax: (613) 763-8220    e-mail: nsparker at nortel.com

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:57:20 -0600
From: Steve Potter <spotter at MERITER.COM>
Subject: Care and feeding of microscopes

I recently aquired an old microscope.  It has been sitting uncovered in the
back of a closet for about ten years.  It is a Spencer which was
manufactured by American Optical.  It has all the features mentioned in
the 1994 (I think) Brewing Techniques article on choosing microscopes. 
All adjustable parts move, but they are tight and require an inordinate
amount of pressure to move.  Is it possible (or advisable) to disassemble,
clean, and lubricate the movable parts?  Are there parts that shouldn't be
disassembled?  What product/chemical should be used for cleaning and
what kind of lubricant is suggested? 

Private e-mail is fine.  I will summarize and post if enough responses are
received.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:05:09 -0800
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Water, Malt, Yeast

I moved recently and have obtained a water analysis. Will someone fill
me in on it's brewablity. I make lots of pale/porter/ipa and the
occasional marzen, pilsner and weizen.

Ca: 35, SO4: 61, Mg: 13, Na: 58, Cl: 95, Hardness-CaCO3: 132,
Alkalinity-CaCO3: 66


I would also like some information on melanoidan malt. I got some to try
from a local brewer would was using it in a vienna. He didn't have his
spec sheets handy so couldn't fill me in on color/extract. I replaced a
pound of biscuit with a pound of melanoidian in a porter I made last
weekend.

The same brewer has also been using the new Wyeast Northwestern ESB
yeast and so have I for that matter. It makes a very nice beer and has
been my house yeast for about 5 batches. It ferments with low krausen
for days and just when fermentation should be dying down this stuff
floculates to the top of the fermenter (and out the air lock, and on the
carpet). I have been using it at about 65F. Does anyone know of the
specs for this yeast? Profile/Best temps?

He also gave me some hops, but I already know how to use them.
Generously.

- -- 
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:24:17 -0600 (CST)
From: David S Draper <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Insulating keg tun / Approval ratings

Dear Friends,

My poker pal, brewclub mate, and fellow HBDer, Eric Schoville, has very
generously helped me step up from my picnic cooler (beginning to blister
severely!) to a converted keg mash/lauter tun.  The other day he supplied
me with some fiberglass insulation (pieces of sheets as used in insulating
behind drywall) and I wanted to get some additional input from folks here
about how best to put it in contact with the tun in such a way that I can
remove it when I need to clean out the tun.  I don't have the tools, time,
or ability to fashion something elaborate like a wooden-clad
flashing-encased jacket, as Eric did (the thing is amazing), but would
like to do something other than just wrap wire around the tun.  I'm also
keen to have it removable without a huge amount of effort each time. 
Advice from you more fabrication-capable folks would be very appreciated; 
private email is best and then I'll post a brief summary. 

As much as I hate to contribute to a thread that's flooded the digest, I
can't resist chiming in on the spousal approval business.  I very much
sympathize with those posters whose mates give them a hard time about time
and money spent brewing.  My ex had that attitude as well, and it did not
take long after I began to brew before it became quite an issue.  I'm not
saying by any means that it was the cause of our split, but it sure didn't
help. I am incredibly lucky now, however, because Julie, the woman now in
my life, is totally supportive of my hobby, very interested in all its
aspects (joined the brew club with me and goes to the meetings, etc.). 
She doesn't actually help me brew, but that's just fine by me. She's also
more of a hophead than I am (yes, it's possible!).  Early in our time
together, we were doing some systematic beer tasting, and I served her a
(quite fresh) Sierra Nevada pale ale.  She loved it, but when she finished
she said "Mmm, that was very good... but do you have anything a little
hoppier?"  I couldn't ask for a better partner, and no, she doesn't have
any sisters.  I wish very good luck to all those for whom brewing does
become this kind of issue. 

Cheers, Dave in Dallas

- -- 
David S. Draper		ddraper at utdallas.edu	Fax: 972-883-2829
Dept. Geosciences	WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper	Electron Probe Lab:
Univ. Texas at Dallas				972-883-2407
 ...That's right, you're not from Texas... but Texas wants you anyway...

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:41:49 -0500
From: Terry Dornbos <homebru at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Jeff Renner's request-I  2nd

In HBD2565, Jim Booth wrote...

>Also, if the email address were on the left border, it would facilitate

>my emailing from my Netscape 3.0 as

>kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us
- ------------------------------

    I'm using Netscape 4.04 and don't really find it to be a problem.
Highlight the address with your mouse, copy to clipboard, open up new
message, and paste into address line. The same thing goes for the
subject line and quoting.  Works for me.

Terry Dornbos (Lansing,Mi.)



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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:12:34 -0500
From: "Myers, John" <JMyers at polkaudio.com>
Subject: Brewery design considerations

All,
My family and I recently moved to a three-level townehome.  This
afforded me a downstairs utility room with drysink.  My conical
fermenters are there (cleanup/preparation is a breeze now) as well as my
shelves of equipment and finished beer.  My wife has cordially invited
me to take my brew kettle OUT of the kitchen.  That's OK, because I
wanted to start doing full-volume boils and eventually try all-grain,
and that's not feasible in our kitchen.  I have a protected and
semi-private patio with water supply, and this seems nearly ideal to set
up a propane fired system.  The real issue is moving a large amount of
liquid in a safe and sanitary way from the patio, down the carpeted
hall, down a flight of steps into the utility room.  Happily, the patio
is off the dining room which is directly above the utility.  My thought
was to run a dedicated pipe from patio to utility via the patio water
supply.
Has anybody done this?   CPVC or brass?  CPVC seems simpler for the
welding/brazing/soldering-challenged.  Would it make sense to build an
in-line chiller?  Cleanup and preparation issues?  I'd sure like to have
the entire plan before taking rock hammer to concrete.
Thanks in advance from the future Bongwasser Bier Kellar Und Garten.
john

John Myers					Polk Audio
Mechanical and Industrial Design Manager	"The Speaker
Specialists"
Vox 410.764.5231, Fax 410.764.5491		Baltimore, MD
jmyers at polkaudio.com				http://www.polkaudio.com


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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:19:41 -0500
From: i.brew2 at juno.com
Subject: calibrating hydrometer, porter recipes

Can someone advise on calibrating my hydrometer.  I know I can check zero
in plain RO water , but for checking at more than one data point, does
someone know how much sugar to disolve in how much water to achieve
certain benchmarks, like 1.025, 1.050, etc.?  Or can you assume (shudder)
that if the instrument is off so many clicks at zero that it will read
that way accross the board?

Also, have a very sweet maple porter that I have been drinking cut half
and half with LAP beer (light american pilsner).  Any suggestions for
other enjoyable uses, mixed with coffee?  Over Ice cream?  Seriously, any
ideas you've tried and liked.

TIA
Dave Blaine
I.Brew2 at Juno.com

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:45:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Boiling grains

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> From: Mike York <myork at asheboro.com>
> Subject: Speciality Grains And Wort Boiling

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned astringence due to boiling the grain; Pat
mentioned that this comes from tannin.  We both forgot to add that boiling
grains can also release starch.  Since the malt's enzymes have already been
de-natured by the heat, this starch won't convert to sugar.  This can create
"starch haze" in your beer, and the starch can nourish infection bacteria,
creating gushers or bottle grenades.

> Please allow me to quote another expert Charlie Papazian taken from his,
> "The New Complete Joy Of Homebrewing"

You can safely assume that most readers of HBD have seen this book, and
graduated beyond it.  Most of Charlie's advice won't ruin a beginner's beer,
but he isn't an "expert" in brewing processes.  His books are useful because
of their non-threatening style, not their technical accuracy.  In many cases
it just as easy -- or easier -- to use methods that result in better quality,
or less risk of infection (or, as in this case, both).

> Just before the water comes to a boil, simply
> use a small kitchen strainer and remove as much as possible without undue
> fuss.  You will find that you can easily remove 80-90 percent of the
> grains.  It's that simple!

I don't find it simpler to fish around with a strainer in 200 degree wort.
I'd rather remove one "tea bag."

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:27:19 -0500 (EST)
From: peterscc at ucbeh.san.uc.edu (Christopher Peterson)
Subject: Cranberry useage questions

Homebrewers,

        I intend to use canberries in a "berliner-like" weiss beer soon.
Since I have never used fruit in a beer before, I am asking for some advise.
Have any of you had success with using cranberries in a beer? and if so, can
you you pass along any important procedures. Specifically, how did you
extract the juice, sterilize the fruit (boil?), and how much to use (pint),
etc ???
        As of right now, I planned to slow cook 1 pint the cranberries and
strain them to extract the juice and then add the juice after the end of the
boil. Anything wrong with this? Will this cause any pectin problems?

Thanks in advance

Chris Peterson

Dr. Christopher Peterson
Department of Molecular Genetics
University of Cincinnati College of Medicine
231 Bethesda Avenue
Cincinnati, OH 45267-0524, USA
Tel: +1 (513) 558 5523
Fax: +1 (513) 558 8474
E-mail: peterscc at ucbeh.san.uc.edu


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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:17:43 -0500 (EST)
From: SocialKing at aol.com
Subject: tsing tao

does any body have a  recipe close to tsing tao beer?  if not, what other
beers are close to tsing tao that i can pursue recipes for?

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:57:08 -0500
From: tanajewski at tfn.com
Subject: New HBD member

     
     HBD'ers,
     
     I've been extract brewing for the past two years, and I'm starting to 
     think about going all-grain.  Is all-grain brewing worth the extra 
     effort?  I've been very satisfied with my extract brews, but I'm 
     wondering is all-grain the way to better brew?  Also, what additional 
     equipement is needed to brew all-grain?
     
     Enjoy Thankgiving!
     
     
     Jim Tanajewski
     West Milford, NJ

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:07:32 -0700
From: Kent Townley <krt at hpeskrt.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Sparging advice please


Luke asks about sparging:

First I would ask what are you trying to achieve?

If your extraction efficiency is in the 80's then you're fine.
You don't want to be any higher than that.

I had a chance to here Dr. Lewis talk about mash tun efficiency at
a conference a few months ago. Here are a couple tidbits I've picked
up along with my personal experience mixed in.

A. Grain crush is probably the most important factor, and is not
emphasized in amateur brewing texts. Since a six roller mill is
out of my price range I choose to crush the grain twice in my
two roll mill.

B. Mash pH needs to be in the correct range. If not adjust water
chemistry accordingly. I think most all grain brewers understand
this, and that is why it is second.

C. Sparge slowly with or without recirculating depending on the
condition of the first run off. If it's fairly clear recirculating
isn't necessary. Temperature is not important!? Dr. Lewis recommends
staying on the low side. Run first running trough, followed by one
running of warm water, followed by *cold* water. Once the cold water
hits the outlet of the lauter tun you are finished.

D. Adjust mash temperature or temperatures to the type of malt
used. This can have a great impact on efficiency. Rests of longer
than 30 minutes are a waste of time.

E. Mash out is a waste of time.

>i) Do I need to "mash out" to 77C (170F) before beginning the
>sparge? I guess this would help my temperature control problems
>somewhat, but so far I have figured that the increased temperature
>of the sparge water would be sufficient, ideally ending up with a
>grain bed temp of 77C (170F) to maximise extraction efficiency
>without extracting "nasties".

Mash out isn't necessary. And sparge water (and grain bed)
temperature is of secondary importance.

>ii) Does pouring boiling water on top of the grain bed adversely
>affect the end result ?  And to what extent ?  I realise that
>boiling the grains extracts undesirable stuff.  But if these
>dissolve in the water at temperatures >77C (>170F), will they not
>precipitate back out as they pass through the cooler grain bed
>below ?

This isn't necessary so why do it? Some tannins will precipitate in
the boil but to what degree is unclear to me. I wouldn't take the
chance since there are safer ways to solve the problem.

>iii) How significant is my disturbance of the top of the grain bed ?
>I keep sticking a thermometer in it anyway.

Not significant. Don't worry about it.

>iv) Can anyone suggest to me a better way of managing my sparging.
>Somebody out there must have this one figured out without the need
>for heaps of expensive kit (ie. anyone who wants to talk me into a
>RIMS will be unsuccessful.  PS, What exactly does RIMS stand for ?).
>I brew 5-gallon batches in a 10-gallon Gott cooler with a phalse
>bottom. I have a solar hot water system which means my hot water
>temperature can be anything from 45C to 90+C (113F to 194+F)
>depending on the weather.  So my only reliable source of really hot
>water is a 1.5 litre (3 pint) slow electric kettle.  Or a big pot
>on a stove, which I can do.

You have all the equipment you need. And "really hot" water in not
necessary. Although brewing 1050 gravity beer in a ten gallon Gott
means your grain bed is on the shallow side. I would change to a
five gallon for beers less than 1060, and save the ten gallon for
high gravity (>1060) beer.

- --------------
Kent Townley
Richardson, TX
- --------------

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:35:06 -0500 (EST)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Long-Term Dry-Hopping

Just curious -- what's another word for "thesaurus"?

I'm preparing to rack a barleywine from the primary to a clearing/aging
carboy.  I plan to let the brew batch-age and clear for several weeks at
garage-ambient temperature (which will be 50 - 65F for the next three months
or so) before force-carbonating and CP-bottling.  I want to dry-hop the
batch, but I'm wondering whether it's better, worse, or indifferent to add
the dry hops now, at racking, versus waiting a few weeks till maybe two weeks
before bottling?  Is there increasing risk of any deleterious effects from
deteriorating hops for long periods?  Will I simply get a deeper dry-hop
character?  No difference?

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy

"7.  Work thee not on energized equipment, for if thou dost, so thy shopmates
will surely be buying beers for the widow and consoling her." -- from a
report from the US Naval Ordinance Laboratory, Silver Spring, MD, circa 1957.


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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:51:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Identifying Yeast

AJ writes:
> I've heard Dan say that he can recognize each of the
>strains he manages under the microscope but he works with these on a daily
>basis. I suppose it is like a farmer being able to recognize his individual
>cows (but yeast don't have those tags in their ears). I'm sure that I'd
>flunk if I were given slides of each of the strains with which I'm supposed
>to be familiar and were asked to identify them.

It does indeed take a lot of experiance to identify various yeast strains
using a microscope.  One method that is used is to inject some of yeast "A"
into something like a rabbit and have the rabbit's immune system create
antibodies for the yeast.  You can then take the these antibodies and use
them to identify other unknown yeast strains.  If there is a reaction, you
know that you have yeast "A" again.  I don't recommend doing this with your
pets, especially because you need a different rabbit for each unique strain.

There is a less-complicated method that I highly recommend, although it takes
a microscope, a lot of patience and hours of looking at various strains
under roughly 800x.  You can identify various yeast strains by the colour
of their marching bands' uniforms.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:57:16 -0800
From: ale at cisco.com
Subject: Sparging...simplifying...eating crow...

Summary:  I really should take my own advice!


A few issues ago, I proposed that pouring sparge water directly on a
plastic lid floating on the sparge water above the grain was an easy way
to simplify sparging.  But I was wrong!

In HBD#2566, Luke.L.Morris at woodside.com.au tries several methods, throwing
out his "Phil's spargy whirly thing" and settles for pouring the sparge
water directly on top of the grain!  He reports that it "disturbed the
top of the grain bed, but apparently not the base since I saw no reduced
clarity of the malt liquor."

Of course!  How can you possibly disturb the bottom of the grain bed by
pouring water onto the top (unless your grain depth is only a few inches)?
I had a really hard time trying to disturb it ON PURPOSE with a big spoon
after a stuck mash!  (Rye is yummy, but sure gets sticky!)

And, in HBD#2561, Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at nfs.aisf.com> offers his
experiences:

| ... at several times during the sparge I actually stir the top
| *half* of the mash (I use a converted keg).  Sometimes this is six or
| eight inches down.  This has no noticeable effect (to me) whatsoever on
| the clarity of the runoff.  I think the concern with disturbing the
| grain bed is perhaps overstated in some cases.

YES!  I should have been thinking "out of the box"!  I should have taken
my own advice.

| I remember Al K. caught a little bit of grief (?) when he mentioned he
| had been to England and seen some brewers using rakes.  I recently toured
| Miller Brewing Co. in Irwindale, CA and Miller not only runs rakes
| continuously through their sparge (1140bbl lauter tun!) but lowers them
| continuously as well.  They end up 2.5 inches from the false bottom when
| they're done.  So I guess I feel somewhat validated in my practice.  Give
| it a, er, whirl...


So, in conclusion, I withdraw my lid-floating suggestion.

Instead, I suggest:
  Just pour the water directly on the grain!

Or better yet:
  Don't pour *any* water on the grain!

If I can make even better beer by NOT SPARGING at all, AND significantly
simplify my brewing day, it's a win-win!  What's the downside...having
to buy 30% more grain?  Big deal.  I don't think a few more dollars for
grain is going to break my bank.

I'm not trying to save money; I'm trying to make great beer!
(Take that to your wife and justify it!)

THINK OUT OF THE BOX!

(I'm not even going to touch this whole purging the bottling bucket
or secondary fermenter with CO2 before transferring...
 ...today  ;-)
What's a secondary?  I brew ales!

However, I *will* still chill my wort with my counterflow chiller.  I
argue that it's easier for me than leaving my kettle to cool down of it's
own accord.  (Who wants to extend their brewing day into the next morning?)
The CF is actually very easy--it's just a sanitization step, hooking up
a hose, and then a siphon (which will need to be done anyway).  Besides,
I cringe at the possible detrimental effects of overnight cooling,
infection being #1.

 -Alan



PS:  "A PostScript of self-indulgence"

OK, I'm ditching that huge capsaicin molecule diagram in my signature.
(You can thank me later.)  So what should my .sig be?

If I sample my last few articles, I've got some pretty good candidates:

  "Relax whenever possible, worry ONLY when you have to, and STILL have
  a better homebrew!"

  "I SHAKE MY CARBOY.  DUH!"

  "What's a secondary?  I brew ales!"

  "THINK OUT OF THE BOX!"

But, I think my favorite so far is:
  "I'm not trying to save money; I'm trying to make great beer!"



Nah,  here's the winner, in the spirit of keeping things simple:

Alan Edwards (ale at cisco.com)  Fremont, CA




   :-)    :-)    :-)    CHILL!!  HAVE A HOMEBREW!!    :-)    :-)    ;-)

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:30:55 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: coffee stout and other holiday beers

there was a question in yesterday's digest about adding coffee
to a stout.  I wrote an article for our newsletter last year after
asking a similar question on the HBD about using coffee and
chocolate in beer.  The article can be found on our web site
at:
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/dbnewsl/t9601e.htm

The best way to add coffee, I think, is to add freshly 
brewed coffee to taste at bottling or kegging time.  Add a
few ounces and taste the beer until you get the right blend
of coffee flavor.  
If you want to add the coffee pre-ferment, don't boil
the beans.  You'll get a bitter astringent flavor like boiled
grains.  

Good luck.

  - Bryan Gros
    Oakland, CA
visit the Draught Board web site:
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:19:39 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Sparging

Luke writes (he used boiling water for the sparge on the last two batches):
>i)      Do I need to "mash out" to 77C (170F) before beginning the sparge ?  
>I guess this would help my temperature control problems somewhat, but 
>so far I have figured that the increased temperature of the sparge 
>water would be sufficient, ideally ending up with a grain bed temp of 
>77C (170F) to maximise extraction efficiency without extracting "nasties".

A lot of books say mashout denatures enzymes, but I've posted before that
there really aren't many scenarios where continued activity would be
unwelcome (see the archives).  On the other hand, Rob Reed did a series
of experiments a few years ago (and posted his results to the HBD) in
which he found that doing a mashout did indeed increase extract efficiency
a significant amount (an amount that surprised me).
 
>ii)     Does pouring boiling water on top of the grain bed adversely affect 
>the end result ?  And to what extent ?  I realise that boiling the 
>grains extracts undesirable stuff.  But if these dissolve in the water 
>at temperatures >77C (>170F), will they not precipitate back out as 
>they pass through the cooler grain bed below ?

There are two reasons you want to keep the grain bed below 77C (170F).
One is polyphenol extraction, which increases quite a bit above these
temperatures.  The other is bursting unconverted starch grains.  Unless
you powder your malt (not recommended!) it's quite likely that you will have
a tiny bit of starch at the tip of the kernel that may not get converted.
It is at the furthest point from the growth of the acrospire and therefore
the least-modified part of the kernel.  Undermodified malt is said to
have "stealy tips" and that's what this refers to.  Raising the temperature
above 77C (actually, I think it may be 80C) increases the chance that you
will cause this little pocket of unconverted starch to burst open giving
your beer a permanent starch haze.

>iii)    How significant is my disturbance of the top of the grain bed ?  I 
>keep sticking a thermometer in it anyway.

If the runnings don't get cloudy, I think you should be fine.

>iv)     Can anyone suggest to me a better way of managing my sparging.  
>Somebody out there must have this one figured out without the need for 
>heaps of expensive kit (ie. anyone who wants to talk me into a RIMS 
>will be unsuccessful.  PS,  What exactly does RIMS stand for ?).  I 

Recirculating Infusion Mashing System.  Originated by Rodney Morris and
described in detail in the first Equipment Special Issue of Zymurgy.
It's actually a misnomer, because *in the context of brewing*, "infusion"
refers to the addition of hot water to raise the temperature of the mash.
The batches of hot water are the "infusions."

>brew 5-gallon batches in a 10-gallon Gott cooler with a phalse bottom.  
>I have a solar hot water system which means my hot water temperature 
>can be anything from 45C to 90+C (113F to 194+F) depending on the 
>weather.  So my only reliable source of really hot water is a 1.5 litre 
>(3 pint) slow electric kettle.  Or a big pot on a stove, which I can do.

Here's how I sparge: during the mash, I bring the proper amount of water
up to about 180F.  When the mash is done, I transfer this water into
the hot liquor tanks (two insulated 7-gallon buckets with valves on
the bottoms).  The transfer causes the liquor to lose some heat and it
ends up around 170F.  I have hoses running from the two HLT's over
to the top of the grain bed... simply positioned so the sparge water
runs tangentially to the tun wall and the outlet is below the level
of the liquid in the mash tun.  I have pinch clamps on both the HLT
lines as well as on the outlet of the mash/laeuter tun.  The M/L tun
hose is silicone so I can stick it into the kettle without fear of
melting when I fire up the kettle burner.  I adjust the outflow of
the M/L tun during recirculation (very primitive... just a plastic
1-gallon tupperware pitcher) and then toss it into the kettle.  I
then pour the recirculation runnings back into the M/L tun and start
the sparge water adjusting the pinch clamps so that the level in
the M/L tun does not rise nor fall and I maintain a 1 to 2" (2.5 to 5 cm)
depth of liquid above the top of the grain bed during the sparge.
Of course if I'm doing a true parti-gyle method mash, I will drain
the M/L tun before introducing the hot liquor.  Sometimes I do
turn on the M/L tun burner to bring the mash to mashout, but usually
I'm lazy and simply skip it.

There are pitures of my setup on my website.  I've got pictures of
an actual brewing session, but I've been too busy with other things
(heck... I haven't had time to brew in months!) to scan them in.
One change I would have (and probably still will) make, is use a 1/2"
full-bore ball valve on the kettle... the regular-bore 3/8" one I've
got on there now is far too slow (especially when trying to transfer
the hot liquor to the HLTs!).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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---