---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  yeast, cows and PDA (Daniel S McConnell)
  Malting (Keith Menefy)
  Craft Brewers Method Bood ("Harold R. Wood")
  Press Release: MCAB Announces Qualifying Styles ("Louis K. Bonham")
  Mashing in a cooler? ("Ellery.Samuels")
  Clinitest,Sake tour ("David R. Burley")
  [Fwd: Re: microscopes; plus thoughts and questions on yeast.] (Clifton Moore)
  Subject: re: O2 requirement? (Clifton Moore)
  Foamy Matters (Rob Kienle)
  Slick Alarm Thermometer for the Gadgeteers (like me) (Jim Anderson)
  Boddingtons Pub Ale clone? (Sean Mick)
  cost justification (Mark Tumarkin)
  Pitching Rates ("David Johnson")
  A prayer (Jonathan Hare)
  beer data (ensmingr)
  Jethro on S.O. Approval/ WST/ 3 (4) Books/Bottle da BW/Pellets vs ("Rob Moline")
  Water Softeners, starch and low CO2 in kegs (Chasman)
  Re: kegging (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
  Mint Chocolate Stout Update (John Penn)
  Glucose/Cidery Flavors ("Patrick E. Humphrey")
  Kegging vs. Bottling ("Kensler, Paul")
  Cleaning AL kettles ("Kensler, Paul")
  Suggested temp profile for American Wheat? (Dan Cole)
  yeast propagation (SocialKing)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:37:25 -0500
From: danmcc at umich.edu (Daniel S McConnell)
Subject: yeast, cows and PDA


From: ajdel at mindspring.com (AJ)
>
>Scott Murman asked what kind of microscope setup is required to identify
>the different strains of yeast. Such a system requires a special substage
>condenser (phase contrast), special objectives (phase contrast), ordinary
>oculars, ordinary eyeballs and a brain like Dan McConnell's.

Actually, it would take a brain far better than his to correctly identify a
particular strain with out any other information. Misquoted or
misunderstood?  I don't know, but I read it. In any case, it's an amusing
comment and I should expect a bit of flack from this group.  If AJ only
knew the state of that particular brain lately.......

Having said that, one *can* see characteristic *differences* between the
strains.  American ale tends to be rounder, W306 and W68 tend to be more
elongated ovals, Brett. tends to be elongated and less oval.  But to look
at a slide of yeast, not knowing the growth conditions or having a clue
what strain it might be, no way.  I would never bet on whether a strain is
a lager or an ale.  Well, I would bet on Brettanomyces, but only with a
gram stain and 1000 x oil imersion.  It still is not 100% sure.

>I suppose it is like a farmer being able to recognize his individual
>cows (but yeast don't have those tags in their ears).

My experience with cows is that they are easy to tell apart unless you are
really far away and then some have been mistaken as deer.

>So given that you can't practically identify strains with a microscope, how
>do you do it? Microbiologists have sophisticated techniques based on what
>the organism will or will not grow on, what metabaolites they produce, the
>appearance of colonies  what "antibiotics" suppress growth and so on which
>they use to differentiate organisms.

Right.  Even Wallerstein Nutirient Agar (one of the simplier methods) which
will show very distinct differences between strains with respect to the
uptake of dye is not specific enough to identify a strain by eye.   It is
useful if you are a brewery and plate the same strain day after day and one
day you see a different looking colony appear.

- -------------

>From: Luke.L.Morris at woodside.com.au

>So I approached a microbiological lab supply company.  They are able to
>supply me with prepared 5ml slopes at a cost of A$9.60 (about US$7.10)
>for a box of 10.  The slopes are guaranteed sterile.  They are purpose
>made for yeast culturing and are prepared with potato dextrose agar
>which has been acidified slightly to discourage bacterial growth.

Sounds like a good deal to me.  You might be better off if they could
provide you with Yeast Maltose Agar (YMA) instead of PDA.


DanMcC (about five miles southeast of Jeff Renner)

          (__)
          (oo)                       U
   /-------\/                    /---V
  / |     ||                    * |--|                       .
 *  ||----||
    ^^    ^^
                                                    Cow at 10,000 meters
 Cow at 1 meter.         Cow at 100 meters.      or Yeast at 0.001 meter.







Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:15:50 +1300
From: Keith Menefy <kmenefy at ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Malting

G'day
A question for the maltsters

Is the drying phase of malting barley absolutely necessary?  Would it be
possible to germinate the barley to the required stage and then go
straight to  the brewery for mashing. 
It seems to me that the drying is only required for the storage of the
barley or does some other process happen?
The reason I am asking this is I've only just started partial grain
brews and have malted the barley myself. The tricky bit is drying the
grain. If I could short circuit the system by deleting the drying bit it
would make it so much easier. 

Cheers 
     Keith Menefy   Hukerenui     New Zealand

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:47:52 +1100
From: "Harold R. Wood" <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: Craft Brewers Method Bood

Hello all, I have just ordered the Craft Brewers Method Book published
by the ASBC.  The book is to be published in December and costs around
$60.  It looks to be a comprehensive method book for small brewers and
might be of interest to advanced homebrewers as well as professional 
craft brewers.

Following are the main headings from the Table of Contents from the 
Craft Brewers Methods Book.

(I would be happy to send the complete TOC to all who request and will
submit the entire TOC to the HBD if there is interest.)

Contents (Main Headings)

Malt Methods
Hops Methods
Wort Methods
Beer Methods
Microbiology Methods
Filter Aids Methods
Sensory Analysis Methods
Appendixes

The book can be ordered from ASBS.
(I am a humble member of the ASBC, but am not an employee or oficer
 and have no financial interest.)

Rick Wood
(Brewing in Paradise)

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:21:21 -0600
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: Press Release: MCAB Announces Qualifying Styles

November 25, 1997
For immediate release

MCAB Announces Qualifying Styles

The MCAB is pleased to announce the eighteen styles
that will be featured at the first MCAB.  These styles
will be featured at each Qualifying Event, and first
place winners in each Qualifying Style at each
Qualifying Event will be invited to compete in that
style at the MCAB.

In keeping with its stated purpose of having a small,
high quality national competition, the MCAB Steering
Committee has decided to go with one substyle from
each of BJCP categories 1-18.  The committee expects
that the substyles will rotate year-to-year within
each category.

The 1999 MCAB Qualifying Styles are:

1.      Pre-Prohibition Lager (BJCP Category #1(d)).
2.      Munich Helles (BJCP Category #2(e)).
3.      American Wheat (BJCP Category #3(b)).
4.      Ordinary Bitter (BJCP Category #4(a)).
5.      Scottish Export 80 (BJCP Category #5(c))
6.      American Pale Ale (BJCP Category #6(b)).
7.      India Pale Ale (BJCP Category #7)
8.      Dusseldorfer Altbier (BJCP Category #8(a)).
9.      Oktoberfest/Maerzen (BJCP Category #9(a)).
10.     American Brown (BJCP Category #10(d)).
11.     Barleywine (BJCP Category #11(d)).
12.     Munich Dunkel (BJCP Category #12(a)).
13.     Doppelbock (BJCP Category #13(c)).
14.     Robust Porter (BJCP Category #14(a)).
15.     Dry Stout (BJCP Category #15(a)).
16.     Bavarian Weizen (BJCP Category #16(a)).
17.     Tripel (BJCP Category #17(b)).
18.     pLambic (BJCP Category #18(b)).

At present, the following competitions have formally
accepted the MCAB's invitation:

Boston Homebrew Competition
Bidal Society Competition
BURP Spirit of Free Beer
BUZZ-Off
Dixie Cup

So, start your kettles!  The first QE's will be the Boston
Homebrew Competition (and, if they accept, the Kansas City
Brew Meister's Competition) on February 20-21.  A complete
list of QE's and contact persons for each, calendar of
MCAB events, list of Qualifying Styles and the text of the
BJCP Style Guides for each will soon be available at the
MCAB website:

hbd.org/mcab

Questions or comments regarding the MCAB can be directed to
Louis K. Bonham at lkbonham at phoenix.net

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 14:42:08  EDT 
From: "Ellery.Samuels" <esamuel at mvsb.nycenet.edu>
Subject: Mashing in a cooler?

I'm a partial-mash brewer who has been mashing on the stove and sparging in a
bottling bucket.  I need to improve this system and was thinking of using
either a Gott/Igloo type cooler, an ez masher, or a combination Phil's
sprger/lauter tun.  Anyone have any feelings as to which is the best way to
go. Not having any of these available to look at/ test etc. I rely on the
homerbrew collective to help me out.  If I go the way of the cooler do I then
have to build a manifold with copper tubing and insert a false bottom to hold
the grains? Is this difficult to do?  Are there any references out there for
me to check out ie. magaizines, web sites etc...? If possible private e-mail
your response as I do not have much of a chance to check out this site on a
regular basis.

Ellery

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:36:10 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Clinitest,Sake tour

Brewsters:

Mark Tumarkin says:

>I have a batch of porter that seems to be stuck at about 1.021. I didn't=

>think it was quite done but wanted to be sure. It has been at that gravi=
ty
>for 7-10 days. So I thought this might be a good time to try using the
>Clinitest.

Yep, this is the perfect time when you don't know from experience
what the FG should be or it looks flukey.

>I found your instructions - you mentioned using 10 drops of beer and the=
n
>in a later post said oops, and that it should have been 5 drops. You als=
o
>said using 10 drops would be more exact but to divide the results by 2. =
If
>I  understand this, you meant that if the test then showed 1%, it would
>really be at 1/2 %. Is that correct?

Yes, but the only real advantage to this is to average
out the drop size a little better, so stick with the instructions.
One thing you can do is use this technique to get a better
feeling for in-between results by doubling the sample size
and reading chart at twice the level. Say if you got 3/4%. =

Repeating the test at double the amount should give you
a reading at about 1.5%. Sometimes this may be useful. =


>Using 5 drops, my reading comes out at 1%.

Make sure you used the chart for 5 drops and not for 2 drops.

> So it still needs to ferment
>more. Since it has not changed even though I brought it into the house f=
or
>a warmer temp, and also swirled it a bit, I am thinking of adding more
>yeast. Is this what you would suggest? =


This is common problem this time of year when fermentation
temperatures with ale yeasts fall below the mid-sixties,
particularly near the end of the fermentation - but Florida??

Get the temperature of the beer to 70F, off the floor at least =

a few inches.  Prepare a re-starter from about a cup of beer
and yeast siphoned from the bottom  of the fermenter and
from about a tablespoon of malt extract which  has been =

dissolved in a minimal amount of water, boiled and cooled.
Add fermenting starter with the acclimated yeast back to your beer.

> Also you had mentioned the
>alternative of bottling with a higher remaining percentage of fermentabl=
e
>sugars and modifying the amount of sugar added for priming. Would you
>please give me a little guidance on how to figure this as well?

Depending on where you live, altitude wise and the kind of beer,
typically most priming sugar is about 1%. You can use this test to
modify the amount of sugar you add by reducing the priming sugar
in accordance with what is in there already as detected by Clinitest.
However, I only do this with bottling when I have a real time constraint
as I like to get a major amount of the yeast out of the beer in the
secondary. OTOH when I am lagering in Cornies under pressure,
I do this all the time and  the fermenting beer is racked  into the Corni=
e
at around 1% sugar. Since I am going to filter with at least a 5u filter
and properly adjust the carbonation before serving, this is the =

best way to avoid oxidation of the beer during the transfer from the
primary. =


>There has been some talk in the digest recently concerning bottling vers=
us
>fermenting strains of yeast, especially  in some of the Belgian ales. Is=

>this usually done when the beer is filtered?

I'll let AlK respond to Belgian ale techniques, but the most obvious =

one few suspect are the wheat beers of Germany. =

In their export versions, I have read they often filter all the beer =

to make Kristal and then add back lager yeast in the
case of bottle conditioned beer and in case of artificial
carbonation they may just add back  trub to give it that
cloudy appearance.  I don't think this is the case for
non-export, but I don't know and I am sure it depends
on the brewer.  I am sure that hefeweiss contains yeast,
but it may be dead due to pasteurization on export varieties
and that cloudiness may be mostly trub. ( Which to the
average German means cloudiness - but we know what it means)

> In my case, I am thinking of
>doing this because my yeast seem to be partied out.

It is also possible that your yeast is partyed out because =

the stout was too low in FANs due to an excessive amount
of sugar put in there by the extract manufacturer
( if you are using extract).  I had this happen to me once
when I made a John Bull Stout for a brewing class I was teaching.
If you can't re-start your fermentation easily, I suspect you will
have to add some yeast nutrients which can provide the
necessary materials for the yeast to function and finish out. =


Scott Rohlf also wonders if his Barleywine is finished at 1.026.
I suggest you try the Clinitest Tablet Test Kit and then
you will know for sure.

With Clinitest you can tell if you have finished
the fermentation or not and then find out what kind of problem
you may have, if any.  You could not do this with just a hydrometer.
- -----------------------------------------------------
Chris Smith says:

>(now here's a stab in the dark:)

>I headed for Kyoto, Japan next month for vacation
>and I'd like to tour a sake brewery, preferably one
>that has English- or Korean-speaking guides. =

>Anybody have any suggestions on breweries or how
>to go about finding one?  Thanks.

Chris, I suggest you contact my friend Mutsuo Hoshido
at hoshido at gman.rme.sony.co.jp  He is an avid home =

sake brewer and is a member of a Japan-wide homebrewed
sake network and has a friend who is a professional
sake brewer of renown in Japan.
 =

Chances are good he will set you up.  Please say "Hi" for me,
but don't mention Samsung ! {8^).
- ---------------------------------------- =

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:31:20 -0900
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: microscopes; plus thoughts and questions on yeast.]

This didn't make it at my first try at posting, so I will thy again.
Seems there is enough interest in yeast ranching out there to risk a
double post.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:05:27 -0900
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: Subject: re: O2 requirement?

>Maybe some of the mycologists could explain the oxygen 
requirement of
>yeast in lay terms.  I keep hearing O2 is needed to form cell walls, 
but
>isn't most of the cell division occurring during fermentation, when 
O2
>is not required? Do the cells only divide during the time O2 is 
present
>in "high" levels in wort?  How much oxygen is really necessary 
and when
>does the shift from respiration to fermentation occur?  It is my
>understanding that O2 actually represses the generation of ETOH 
and CO2
>in brewers yeast.  I would really like to see some peer-reviewed
>references on this confusing (to me) subject

I'm not a mycologist, but I play one in my basement.

These are all good questions as is evidenced by the level of 
controversy generated whenever a fellow brewer makes assertions 
as to what is 'really taking place'.  I have a cartoon view of yeast 
growth that comes from my ancient education, current reading, and 
hours spent watching starters grow from slant scrapings.  
I am one who comes down on the side of yeast using O2 for the 
purpose of cell division.  A case in point is the observation that a 
well aerated starter will generate little CO2 yet there looks to be 
very high reproductive rates in the starter.  The O2 levels seem to 
crash rather quickly and the broth becomes foamy, and laden with 
CO2.  Addition of more O2 seems to suppress fermentation, and 
effort presumably returns to cell division.  Other limiting factors 
will likely influence the indefinite continuation of this relation.  
Eventually some critical lipid, or other required cellular building 
block, will be in short supply and the results are indeterminate.  It 
may be that this is where weak cells start to result.  Many of the 
anecdotal records made by brewers, try to fit undesirable yeast 
behavior into a simple box.  One thing I am confident of, "there is 
nothing simple about yeast."  As for looking to science to answer the 
question, I wouldn't be too optimistic.  I believe the answer is to 
find what works for you and strive to incrementally improve results.  
I try to keep my cartoon views flexible.  I will presently be flexing 
into the use of nutrients in my starters to see if I can keep cell 
division going for a longer time, while producing viable yeast 
volumes.  The problem is that even estimating quantities of yeast 
produced is not easy.  Just how thick is that gob of yeast on the 
bottom of my quart canning jar?  How many are in suspension? If I can
come up with an 
experiment that has a hope of even suggesting a useful quantitative 
result, I will run it.  Otherwise we are left to act in a manner not 
unlike those who have been successful before us.  This is what is 
known as a craft.
Good brewing, and keep those cartoons coming.
Clif

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:10:23 -0600
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Foamy Matters


- --------------FFB00139A45BC4DE173F7EF1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 Andrew notes in HBD 2566...

> While boiling, the foamy gunk that pops up is hot break, this too should be
> skimmed off as it forms.
>

Hmm. I thought the hot break was the crud that collects on the bottom of
the kettle (and that collects moreso with the addition of Irish Moss)
just *after* the boil (during that time that we, or I anyway, spend
waiting for everything to settle down before starting the transfer). Are
you talking about the foam that forms on the top of the wort at the
start of the boil? Same stuff? I've always wondered if I oughta skim
that off. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in assuming you're
suggesting to do so.

- --
Cheers4beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com


- --------------FFB00139A45BC4DE173F7EF1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
&nbsp;Andrew notes in HBD 2566...
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>While boiling, the foamy gunk that pops up is hot break, this too should be
skimmed off as it forms.</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;
<BR>Hmm. I thought the hot break was the crud that collects on the bottom
of the kettle (and that collects moreso with the addition of Irish Moss)
just *after* the boil (during that time that we, or I anyway, spend waiting
for everything to settle down before starting the transfer). Are you talking
about the foam that forms on the top of the wort at the start of the boil?
Same stuff? I've always wondered if I oughta skim that off. Feel free to
correct me if I'm wrong in assuming you're suggesting to do so.&nbsp;

<P>--
<BR>Cheers4beers,
<BR>Rob Kienle
<BR>Chicago, IL
<BR>rkienle at interaccess.com
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

- --------------FFB00139A45BC4DE173F7EF1--


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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:44:44 -0700
From: Jim Anderson <jander at xmission.com>
Subject: Slick Alarm Thermometer for the Gadgeteers (like me)

I'm guessing that three posts within a month pretty much destroys my
lurker status, but I've just gotta share this ....

I recently ordered and received one of the new Polder thermometers --
it's a combination digital timer/thermometer (separate functions) with a
user-setable (?) temperature alarm.  You simply set the target
temperature and it will begin beeping when it reaches that temperature. 
The REALLY nice feature is that the probe is attached to a 42" cord. 
You can use it for brewing, deep-frying or as a meat-probe inside the
oven.  Another nice feature is its magnetic mount.  I put mine on my
range vent and use a clothespin to hold the probe in my brewkettle or
deepfry pot positioned so that the probe doesn't touch metal.  The range
is ?-390F.  Sure beats the hell out of dipping a standard thermometer
every coupla minutes.  The timer operates independently of the
thermometer.  It uses one AAA battery.

This gadget runs $30 (give or take) and I've seen it advertised in two
different places:  The Chef's Catalog and the Williams-Sonoma catalog. 
I'd guess that it's also available elsewhere.  FWIW, it is also featured
in the latest Consumer Reports.

STANDARD DISCLAIMER: no affiliation, blah, blah, blah ....  this is just
one of the handiest gizmos I've ever come across (and yes, I'm a gadget
freak), and it won't wind up in the closet fer sure ....

  - Jim

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:13:42 -0800 (PST)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: Boddingtons Pub Ale clone?

        Greetings:
Has anyone out there produced a close replica of Boddington's Pub Ale that
they could share with me? I have a customer that wants to reproduce it, and
I have some ideas, but nothing from any of the literature on my
bookshelves. If you have book references, such as tasting/brewery notes,
I'd appreciate it greatly! Private email is ok. I know we can't replicate
the nitrogen/widget effect, but I want to get as close as possible
otherwise. Thanks.

Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew



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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:23:23 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: cost justification

On this 'cost justification-spousal approval' thread -

I quess I'm very lucky. My wife doesn't drink beer, but I never have to
'justify' brewing costs or time to her. In fact, this evening she came home
with a vacuum sealer for me. I had mentioned a while back about wanting one
for better hops storage. She found one at a second hand store (but
amazingly, it had never been used) and bought it for me. Now all I need are
the oxygen barrier bags. Damn, another expense...does it ever end?   

Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle
Gainesville, FL

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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:29:44 -0600
From: "David Johnson" <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Pitching Rates

Yeast Lovers!
The recent debate about pitching rates raises some questions for me. I know
that you  should pitch more yeast for a lager.  I think I can get some yeast
at the local brewery. It makes a variety of decent lagers so it's yeast must
be fairly versatile. It uses a yeast from a brewery from PA that I believe
is no more (Walters?).  I plan to use it for a Dunkel and a Pre-Prohibition
Pils. Would this yeast be appropriate? Would a quart of slurry be too much?
What bad effects can result?

 Dave in Monroe, WI


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Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:41:49 -0500 (EST)
From: bl190 at freenet.carleton.ca (Jonathan Hare)
Subject: A prayer

Our lager
which art in barrels
hallowed be thy drink.
Thy will be done, I will be drunk 
at home as I am in pubs.
Give us this day our foamy head,
and forgive us our spillages,
as we forgive those who spill against us.
Lead us not into incarceration, 
but deliver us from hangovers.
For thine is the king-batch, the pint and the barley,
For bitter and lager,

Barmen

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:05:39 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: beer data

Dear HBDers,

I have a web site which gives the alcohol level, calorie content, 
and additional relevant information for many commercially 
available beers.  Look at the URL: 
http://www.npac.syr.edu/users/ensmingr/beer/beerdata.html

I have included beer from large, regional, and micro-breweries, 
but not beer from brewpubs.  All information comes directly 
from the breweries, in particular their web sites or personal 
communications.  At present, I have not included data from 
secondary sources (e.g.,  Michael Jackson's _Pocket Guide to 
Beer_), but may in the future. 

Obviously, my table is far from complete, so YOUR 
CONTRIBUTIONS ARE MOST WELCOME!  Please also 
provide me with your source, such as a URL, a copy of an email 
from the brewery, etc..

Happy Turkey Day,

Peter A. Ensminger
ensmingr at npac.syr.edu



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 01:15:54 PST
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: Jethro on S.O. Approval/ WST/ 3 (4) Books/Bottle da BW/Pellets vs

		The Jethro Gump Report
>From: katecone at ime.net (Kate Cone)
>Subject: Spousal Approval
> If your SO doesn't have any hobbies,
>and wants to spend every waking minute with you, my sympathies. But I think
>having to do all those dances of "I'll do chores if you "let" me brew" are
>ridiculous. 

	Amen, and thanks for a woman to state the obvious. Guarantee ya, if a man
had said it, he would have received the infamous, "It's people like you
that give HB'ing a bad name and keep it a male dominated hobby!" Yup,
guarantee ya.

WST...
	Learned a simple tip from John Anshutz, the original brewer  at  the Blind
Tiger in Topeka. He had a box of sterile plastic test tubes, with screw on
caps, that came individually sealed in a cello type wrapper. He would take
2 or 3 samples, I believe all of his came from the fermenter, pre-pitching,
and sit them on a shelf for a few days to test his bacterial influences. 
	I'm not aware of the cost, but he felt that it was cheaper (per unit and
labor) to buy these and throw them away after use, than to buy an
auto-clave or spend the time with other methods. YMMV.

>From: "Raymond Estrella" 
>Subject: Brewing tomes,
>..... what three brewing
>related books we would pick if that was all that we could have.

	Ray Daniels, "DGB's," Graham Wheeler's, "Homebrewing, The Camra Guide,"
and G. & L. Fix's "Analysis of Brewing Techniques." 
	If I could have 4, I also like "The Practical Brewer," Master Brewer's
Association of America,
	Obviously I think highly of these, but truly wish I had GW's book earlier
in my brewing life.... like the first book. IMO, it's the best for newbies.

>From: scotty at enaila.nidlink.com
>Subject: Bottling the Barleywine
> I have come up with three alternatives:
>1.  Add priming sugar and bottle (hope that there is enough yeast in 
>     solution).
>2.  Add more yeast and sugar and bottle (probably a qt starter)
>3.  Keg, force carbonate, and bottle

	Pick Door Number 3. Just my .02, but it worked for me.

>From: "Aaron Spurlock" <spurlock at azlink.com>
>Subject: How to use Hop Pellets?
> Once that was done, I stirred the wort in a
>circle to get all the "gunk" into the center of the pot, wrapped my siphon
>uptake tube in my fine mesh bag, and started the siphon in the bottom
corner
>of the pot. Well, the hop "slime" soon coated the entire bag, stopping any
>further flow through it and my siphon died.

	In my commercial practice, whirlpool was for 20/60, and then followed a
20/60 rest to allow the 'gunk' (trub) to settle. Then the wort was allowed
out of the kettle through a valve at the circumference, 'ideally' above and
away from the trub that had settled to the center of the kettle. Factors
that influence success in this are size and design of kettle, inclusive of
'hop-gates,' if any, and the amount of hop pellets used.
	Try it again, and allow a rest for settling, and you might want to start
the siphon tube just below the surface of the wort and lower it, as
required.

>Is it better to siphon out of the boiler? I like the idea of using the
>"inline aerator" so siphoning seems attractive.

	There's nothing wrong with siphoning out of the kettle, but just make sure
your 'in-line aerator' is used post chilling. I can't tell how you plan to
aerate by your text.

>From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
>Subject: Re: fermenter CO2 to carboy
>....., and wished to heck that
>Williams or someone sold a simple trigger-type device for spraying CO2
>into carboys, bottling buckets etc.  Any ideas on that one anyone?

	I use a plain old 'cobra-head' beer valve, like the kind you get on the
end of a 'pony-pump' when you rent a keg. Attach to the hose coming off a
CO2 regulator, and adjust your pressure to suit. You could even shove a
piece of suitable diameter copper tubing up the spout, and extend it down
to the bottom of the carboy, and 'fill'er up.' The valve action is nice, as
you can open it at will, or open it all the way and leave it for a
continuous gas flow. It's cheap, too.

Russian Brewery Death...
	I missed it, but was told that a brewery manager in Russia was shot to
death recently. Hell, I didn't know he had moved to Russia! (Take it as you
see fit.)

Jack Schmidling's No Chill...
	I have learned a lot from JS, but as for 'no chill?' Not for my beer. I
try to reduce opportunity for infection. I want it down to pitching temp
'now,' so I can get those yeasties going.  YMMV.

>From: "Neal Parker" <Neal.Parker.nsparker at nt.com>
>Subject: air filter for aquarium pump
>Where could I buy ...

	Check for 'transducer protectors' for the medical field. In your line of
work, I'm sure you could find them.

>From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
>Subject: Rock Bottom Brewery (was GABF sort of...)
>I would like to give thanks to Mr. Mark Youngquist, Owner and Head Brewer
of
>Rock Bottom Breweries (RBB).

	Mark is one of the leaders in the industry, and I am happy that he has
worked with you on your complaints. this is only fitting. 
	Now, if one could only persuade Mr. Youngquist that not all the people that
send their beers to GABF, WB Cup, and WB Champs are, "... lazy, uninspired
marketeers who lack creative juice! " 
	
Cheers!
Jethro Gump

Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net
Ames, Iowa
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:09:42 -0800
From: Chasman <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: Water Softeners, starch and low CO2 in kegs

Jeff asks about water softeners:

> but I need to know if anyone out 
>there knows what a water softener does to the water?  The
>house that I'm renting has one of those installed, and I
>know absolutely nothing about it. 

Well, traditional water softeners exchange the Ca and Mg ions with Na ions
which eliminates the hard water deposits which would otherwise form in your
water heater, plumbing and leave that white film on your shower door. You
probably don't want to brew with this high sodium water. Many doctors
suggest not drinking it either especially if you are on a sodium restricted
diet.


Joe asks about oats:

>Okay, now I'm worried. Whats wrong with unmalted adjuncts? I am  
>biting my fingernails waiting for my oatmeal stout to finish  
>conditioning. If the grain is geletanized (as I assume the flaking  
>process does, as per Papazian) and added as an adjunct before the  
>wort is boiled (and removed when it does), why is there risk for  
>infection? And why would someone worry much about haze in a stout?
>

Yes, oats are gelatinized which means that the starches are now soluble in
warm (read mash temp) water instead of needing to be boiled. This is not
the issue though. The oats will contribute starch, not sugar to the
finished beer. Starch won't ferment by the yeast but some wild yeasts and
certainly bacteria will find this food source very appealing. The presence
of starch in your finished beer will cause some stability probs. If you
plan on drinking it quickly, it may not be a problem; certainly in a stout,
haze will not be a problem like it would be in a paler beer. 

>As for starchy beer not being very good, I assumed that it was just  
>the starch content that gave an outmeal stout its characteristic  
>mouth feel.  Is this incorrect? This is my second batch brewed, so  
>bear with me if my questions display my ignorance.

Nah, I make my oatmeal stouts with a full mash so there aren't any starches
in them. Most of the mouthfeel is from the proteins and dextrines which the
oats contribute.

Kevin asks about kegging carbonation probs:
>I have Kegged a few batches now and I just haven't been real happy with the
>result.  I just don't seem to get the mouth feel carbonation that I got
>from bottle conditioning.  I get plenty of foam but the beer just seems to
>have little if any carbonation.  I just do the standard kegging procedure,
>35psi, cold shake, and leave it with presure at 35psi, Co2 bottle on, for a
>couple of days and drink.  I despence at about 4-5 psi.  

Well, I'll bet that the carbonation is ok for a while and then things get
kinda flat? This is the problem with using a low dispense pressure. The CO2
will equilibrate in the head space at the lower pressure once you start
dispensing and the effective carbonation will be as if you only carbonated
it with 4-5 psi.

There are several solutions:

1) Turn up the dispense pressure. 10-12 psi will keep the beer closer to
the original carbonation level. If you have foaming probs you can do
several things. Remember to open the tap *all the way* when you pour. The
tendency is to just crack it open which increases foaming through
turbulence. You can also try using a longer run of tap hose. The pressure
drop in 3/16" hose is on the order of several psi per foot (I can give you
exact numbers if you like, I just don't have my Foxx catalog handy) so if
you use a five foot line, you will have the effective pressure at the tap
of about 4-5 psi.

2) Learn to like cask style beer!! I love my beers (mostly well hopped
ales) with light carbonation. When the carbonation drops off, I can drink
more faster ;)

C--


Charles Hudak in San Diego, California (Living large in Ocean Beach!!)
cwhudak at adnc.com
ICQ# 4253902
"If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs."
- --David Daye



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:09:07 -0700
From: ritter at bitterroot.net (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
Subject: Re: kegging

Kevin Aylor writes:

>My question is; Is this just the way kegging beer in soda kegs is?  If
>not, how do I get those tiny boubbles like in botttled beer?  Any
>suggestions would be helpful.

Be patient. Proper conditioning of force carbonation beers takes time. The
shake and dispense method works OK if you are in a hurry but I have found
that the fine bubbles and creamy head happen only after the beer has been
hooked up to the CO2 tank for at least two weeks. Unless you are in a
hurry, try hooking up the keg to the CO2 at the proper psi and waiting two
weeks before tapping.




Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery - Hamilton, Montana



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:33:50 -0500
From: John Penn <john_penn at spacemail.jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Mint Chocolate Stout Update

                       Subject:                               Time:10:12 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Mint Chocolate Stout Update            Date:11/26/97

    An update on that mint chocolate stout recipe posted this past summer. 
Initially the chocolate flavor was predominant but seems to be mellowing. 
There is a flavor that I associate with the mint but can't describe well,
maybe sharp or refreshing is close.  At any rate, I think I would modify my
previous comments on the mint used based on its current mellowing taste.  I
think I am getting some mint flavor so I might increase the mint in the boil
say 50% next time instead of 100%.  For aroma I will still double the amount
of mint--there was almost no mint aroma.  I had used 1.5oz of mint in the boil
and in the secondary for aroma.  My leaves were slightly wet--rained on brew
day--so my weight measurements might be off.   I think I'll try maybe 2oz in
the boil and 3-4oz in the secondary (vodka soak as before) the next time I
brew.  See previous HBD for recipe if you are interested.
   John Penn (Eldersburg, MD)


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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:45:46 -0600 (CDT)
From: "Patrick E. Humphrey" <HUMPHREY.PATRICK at Igate.Abbott.Com>
Subject: Glucose/Cidery Flavors

Hi All,

In HBD #2566 George De Piro wrote:


>Bruce asks about using corn sugar instead of corn to
>lighten the taste of his beer to make it more palatable to
>his unenlightened friends.  Corn sugar, as has been
>recently discussed here, will lighten the beer's body
>and flavor, but will make it cidery if used in
>excess.  It will contribute no corn flavor.


It may be a matter of semantics here but, I was under the impression that 
*cane sugar*, ie. sucrose, was the sugar that was responsible for the 
development of cidery flavors.  Corn sugar is glucose, ie. dextrose, 
sucrose is a disaccharide of glucose and fructose.

Isn't dextrose added to some British ales?  These don't seem to have the
"cidery" flavor attributed to the addition of sugar.  I have never added 
more than a half pound of glucose to any of my homebrews so I may have 
never encounted cidery flavors using it.


Then again, I throw this out to the group from Bob Devine's summary of 
sugars at http://realbeer.com/brewery/library/SugarSumm.html

- ----

Sucrose / table sugar / cane sugar :

  Sucrose is a disaccharide composed of one molecule of glucose and one of
fructose.  More precisely, it is dextrose plus dextrorotary fructose. It 
must be broken apart before the yeasts can use it. When heated in an acidic 
solution (such as wort) the sugar is inverted to make D-(+)-glucose and 
D-(-)-fructose.  Yeasts will invert the sucrose if it is not already in 
that form before using by using invertase. 

<snip>

  A complaint in the early days of modern homebrewing was that using table 
sugar in beer-making resulted in a "cidery" beer. The symptoms were that a 
beer made with table sugar that was added to the boil produced a cidery 
flavor that faded after several weeks in the bottle. Therefore the rule of 
thumb became 'avoid all table sugar'. While this is still a good idea when 
using malt extract, this old-(ale)wives tale is misleading. That defect 
most likely came from poor yeast due to a too low pitch, insufficient 
free-available-nitrogen, or a lack of other necessary yeast building 
materials in the wort. Table sugar can be used in small amounts with no 
harm and it is certainly cheaper to use for priming. 

  This simple colorless sugar will lighten the body of a beer since it can 
be completely fermented. It also lightens the beer color (hmm, negative 
lovibond rating? :-) 

- ----

Low pitch rate?!  Insufficient nutrients?!


Uh oh, I may have started something..  ;-)



Pat Humphrey
Lindenhurst, IL


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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:05:34 -0700
From: "Kensler, Paul" <PKensler at itcmedia.com>
Subject: Kegging vs. Bottling

Kevin said:
"I just don't seem to get the mouth feel carbonation [from
force-carbonated kegs] that I got from bottle conditioning."

Kevin,
Although I know a LOT of people who are happy with the results from
forced carbonation, (sticking my neck out here, so no flames!) I don't
like the results myself and always do final conditioning in the keg.

I prime the keg with corn sugar, just use less - about 1/3 cup for a
5-gallon keg (you can play with this amount to achieve specific
carbonation rates).  One thing is important to remember - purge the
headspace of air, and put about 30 psi pressure on the keg when you seal
it.  This will insure that your keg is sealed properly while the yeast
produce the CO2.  The keg seems to condition faster than bottled beer
does, so it is usually ready to drink in 7-10 days.  I don't mind the
wait, since I really prefer the results from keg-conditioned brews.  I
get maybe a half-glass of yeasty ale, then the rest is clear (I always
make sure the beer has dropped clear in the secondary before racking to
the keg).

FWIW, I think the "extra" time involved in keg conditioning also helps
produce a better carbonation.  That is, force-carbonating the keg then
leaving it sit for a week or two would help.

Hope this helps,

Paul Kensler
Brewing in Plano, TX

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:17:02 -0700
From: "Kensler, Paul" <PKensler at itcmedia.com>
Subject: Cleaning AL kettles

Regarding Aluminum kettles, Bob said:
"I bought a fantastic restaurant grade 15 gal Al pot (snip).  My
question is, is there an easy way to clean the inside of this pot?"

Bob,
I brew in Aluminum too, and from what I've learned, you MUST leave that
grungy-looking stain alone - it is apparently some sort of oxide-layer
that develops in all Aluminum cooking vessels, and will contribute no
problems to the brew.  Of course, I am talking about the brownish-gray
looking stains IN the aluminum, not any sort of organic gunk ON the
aluminum... 

I soak my kettle in TSP for 30 - 60 minutes, then wipe it clean with a
plain old sponge.  The TSP (B-brite or any other detergent would work
too) does all the hard work, I just make sure all the organics are wiped
off.

I have never had any off-flavors from this pot (It's made plenty of
batches, and I have earned a few ribbons from those batches), so my
results have been great by doing this.  Anyone have other input?

Have fun,

Paul Kensler
Brewing in Aluminum in Plano, TX

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:20:25 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Suggested temp profile for American Wheat?

This weekend I am going to attempt a 50-75% flaked wheat beer (the balance
being some american 2-row, my HB store in town does not regularly carry
6-row).

I've heard recently here and on the HBD that a 122F rest is detrimental to
the head, so now I have questions on what step profile to follow for that
amount of wheat.

Also, I have heard from others to use malted wheat and not flaked wheat to
aid conversion. I only have flaked wheat right now, but since it is already
flaked shouldn't it be mostly converted already. Plus the addition of the
2-row should help right?

Any suggestions?

TIA,
Dan Cole
dcole at roanoke.infi.net.nospam

<remove .nospam from address to reply>



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:18:57 -0500 (EST)
From: SocialKing at aol.com
Subject: yeast propagation

does anyone have any suggestions on collecting the yeast from a carboy(used
as a primary fermenter)?  I would like to save/culture the yeast from the
carboy but i'm affraid that it won't pour out easily and i can't find a
utensil long and thin enough to reach down in there to collect ittt. any
suggestionns would be greatly appreciated!

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---