---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Argon flush ("David R. Burley")
  Re: bubblegum from yeast (Sean Mick)
  Newbie Warning: I have some questions (carlsberg, microwave ("Francois Landry")
  TSP and Aluminum OK? (Paul Kensler)
  hop-py pumpkin, bottling barleywines ("Raymond Estrella")
  Bubblegum (Adrian Griffin)
  re: (unmalted adjuncts,) mead (and gratitude) (Dick Dunn)
  Re:brewery setup ("John Lifer, jr")
  plaid and yeast identification (Mark Tumarkin)
  Histamine reactions from beer (Ninkasi)
  bubblegum esters (Mark Tumarkin)
  Mexican Beer (rlasser)
  Kegging and Sankey (Wheeler)
  thanks (Torque)
  Unitank design ("Frank E. Kalcic")
  What went wrong? ("Lee, Ken")
  malted barley gelatinisation temps (Andy Walsh)
  IRC request ("Michel J. Brown")
  reusing yeast from carboy (Mark Tumarkin)
  Agar and yeast ranching (Saul Laufer)
  Proper Irish Moss use (kathy)
  Brewer customs (kathy)
  On leaving the Hops Behind ("Michael Gerholdt")
  Finnicky ferment (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  Yeast from bottle conditioned beer (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  cleaning aluminum, yeast recovery ("David R. Burley")



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:22:12 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Argon flush

Brewsters:

Layne Rossi saw a bottle of argon gas advertised as being =

useful for flushing wine bottles and wonders if it is useful for
flushing carboys and cornies to prevent oxidation of beer.

I doubt it is very useful even for wine bottles and may be
more "high tech" hype for rich wine drinkers. In such a
small bottle as a wine bottle,  the gas will go in under turbulent
conditions and mix to equilibrium. =


Since you learned in Freshman Chemistry that at equilibrium,
each gas occupies the whole volume of the container, you will
get a mixture of gases which will not separate out no matter =

how heavy one is relative to the other.  Under these turbulent flow
conditions it may take many volumes of gas to get the bottle or Cornie
or carboy flushed to a small amount of oxygen. Nitrogen or CO2 =

would be just as good under these turbulent flow conditions. =

See the HBD archives for more discussion on this. =

Safety concerns and comments are there, like  filling up a valley or mine=

or  large tank by *laminar* flow conditions and smothering occupants, etc=
=2E

Flushing a cornie by passing gas (oops) into it will have a
similar problem and will take large quantities of CO2 to flush it properl=
y.
5 volumes blown into the keg (100 liters) will reduce the oxygen
content to about 1% oxygen and 10 volumes (200 liters)
will reduce the oxygen content of the gas to 0.05%. At 44 g/22.4 liters
at STP five volumes of CO2 will be 196 grams or a roughly a
half of a pound of CO2.  10 volumes will be about one pound.
This represents a substantial percentage of a 5 pound cylinder
and an unnecessary waste.  =


To answer your suggestion positively, here's how I flush my cornies:

Fill them clear to the top with cool ( even hot is OK) boiled water and =

push the water out with CO2 applied to the "in" valve and the water
will come out  through the "out" valve with a beer delivery hose and
valve normally used to fill your glass.  Now the gas space has
pure CO2 in it with no possibility of oxygen. Note this takes
only 20 liters of CO2 and is much better. Fill the cornie with beer with =

the hose outlet all the way to the bottom and the lid partially covering
the top opening or a piece of plastic wrap to avoid mixing air into the
head space.  Place the top on, snap it,  open the release valve and flush=

this small head space briefly with CO2.  Close the valve
and pressurize the cornie to seal it even if you are doing a natural
carbonation/lagering as I often do. Without pressure it will not seal.

I always fill carboys with still-fermenting beer so I don't have this
problem,
but I suppose the same thing could be done with carboys, if great care
is taken not to pressurize the carboy above atmospheric.

The convex side of the carboy ( the outside) is strong to applied pressur=
e
and the concave side ( the inside) is weak to applied pressure.
Pressurizing the carboy above atmospheric may cause it to explode.
I recommend that you can siphon water out of the water filled carboy
and supply the CO2 at the top at just about atmospheric pressure
(0 on the PSIG tank gauge). I imagine a rubber stopper with
two holes in it. One for the siphon to remove the water and
the other to supply the CO2.  I also imagine having a rubber stopper
will provide some measure of safety against pressuring the carboy, =

if it is not jammed in too tightly.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:44:14 -0800 (PST)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: Re: bubblegum from yeast

Al K wrote:

>I've used perhaps 50 strains of Saccharomyces over the years and I don't
>recall a bubblegum aroma from any of them.  However, if you smell Orval,
>you will notice that "bubblegum" is a very strong component of its aroma.
>I was lucky enough to culture the yeast from Orval that produces that
>characteristic aroma.  There are four things that lead me to believe that
>this "bubblegum" yeast is Brettanomyces:

Al, have you (or anyone else out there) used Wyeast #1214 and noticed a
bubblegum aroma? This has been my experience. Perhaps this yeast is from
Orval and contains Brett?? Or my nose is smelling something else. Any
thoughts?

Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew



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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:35:59 PST
From: "Francois Landry" <flandry at hotmail.com>
Subject: Newbie Warning: I have some questions (carlsberg, microwave 

Hello to all!

My name is Francois Landry. I live in Quebec City, in Canada. I have 
brewed 3 great batches to date and intend to brew a lot more during the 
coming months.

Here are my questions:

1) Can anyone locate a partial mash or all-extract recipe for a beer 
similar to Carlsberg. (Anyone can look in their "Brewing beers like 
those you buy"? Please...)

2) Would it seem stupid to try boiling my wort in my microwave? :-) I 
know it sounds freaky for most of you but I would only try small 1-2 
gallons batches, maybe not even fully boiling the wort. It's just that 
brewing in college dorm room is not like brewing at home... and I don't 
really want "no-boil" kits.

Thank you for your .02$

Francois Landry
flandry at hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:06:02 -0600
From: Paul Kensler <pkensler at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: TSP and Aluminum OK?

HBD,
Earlier today, I posted a message in response to someone's query on how to
clean his aluminum kettle.  I recommended a brief (30-60 min) soak in TSP
(Tri Sodium Phosphate), followed by a sponge scrubbing and a good rinse.

However, later today I was visiting a local hardware store and happened to
look at a box of TSP.  The label reads:  Do not use on aluminum.

Are there any chemists or metallurgists out there that can explain why not?
 I have been using TSP to clean my kettle for over a year now, and have not
noticed any pitting or other visible signs of wear.  However, I do not
apply the TSP directly to the kettle; I dilute it to about 1 TB/gallon of
water (Please, no responses on the Aluminum/Alzheimers debate!).

Thanks in advance!
Paul Kensler
TSP user in Plano, TX


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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 03:20:19 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com>
Subject: hop-py pumpkin, bottling barleywines

  Hello to all,
Mark tells of over-hopping woes,
>I just made a pumpkin ale and a sweet stout last weekend.
>I miscalculated the amount of perl hops to put into the pumpkin ale.
>It turned out more IPA-ish.  I can smell and taste the pumpkin and spices,
>but the hops are kind of overpowering.  Is there a way I can mellow it out?

You could do what all the big brewers do to maintain a consistant product,
blend batches.  If you have the time, and The desire you can make 
another batch of pumpkin ale, using 1/3 or so of the hops as the first batch, 
and blend them together in the keg, or bottling bucket.

  Scott Rohlf asks,
>You may remember about a month ago, I asked about Rogue yeast for a 
>barleywine.  Well, I made the beer and found out some things in the 
>process. I ended up with a dismal 1.084 post boil OG.  <snip>
>I had a few questions regarding this thing. The fermentation seems to have 
>ended around 1.026.  Is this a reasonable final gravity?  I would like some 
>advise on how to bottle this stuff.  I am leaning toward force carbonation.  
>I would like to know if this would be detrimental to the beer.  Will it have 
an 
>effect on how it ages?  Thanks for all your help.

  You do not say what your O.G. ended up at after adding the extract, 
but if it was around the 1.100 that you were shooting for, than 1.026
sounds pretty good for a F.G.  (76% apparent attenuation, 11% alc. by vol.)
As far as bottling goes, I force carbonate and CPF bottle all of my strong 
beers,
(with the exception of Triples.) I let them condition in the keg for 2-3 
months 
before I bottle, then condition a few more months in the bottle. Conditioning 
time depends on the size (O.G.) of the brew. This has worked well for me
but as always, YAMMV. 

 


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Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:55:15 +0000
From: Adrian Griffin <agriffin at softcom.net>
Subject: Bubblegum

About 3 years ago, I made a Belgian pale using William's Abbey, and it
had a delicate bubblegum note as it warmed up in the glass.  In October
this year, I made a similar ale using Wyeast 1214, fermenting at about
65F.  After 4 1/2 weeks in the keg, this one has a slight rubbery/dime
store candy/bubblegum off-aroma.  

My feeling is that the bubblegum/cheap candy odor results from
fermenting these yeasts (which may both be Chimay) too warm and pehaps
with too little oxygen.

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Date: 27 Nov 97 01:24:56 MST (Thu)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: (unmalted adjuncts,) mead (and gratitude)

Chasman <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com> wrote, _inter_alia_, some rather detailed
thoughts about carbonation levels for meads.  Then,

> You might also post this question to the Mead Lovers Digest. There are alot
> of experienced meaders there that could provide better insight than myself.

That's fair.  Do consider that a lot of mead-makers don't carbonate at all...
they see mead more like a wine (traditionally still), so if their normal
carbonation level is zero, they might not have a lot of insights beyond
the one that in the unusual situation where they carbonate a mead (or more
likely, a melomel) it comes back to the old 4 oz wt dextrose for 5 gal.

> ... Try email
> to: rcdraven at talisman.com  That's Dick Dunn's email (the digest janitor and
> a general walking FAQ about mead) and he can help you get subscribed. Heck,
> Dick probably has great insight on this question, maybe he can help you out
> himself.

Let's correct his address to rcd at talisman.com.  The raven part is a machine
name within the domain, not necessary.  But that might not help you much,
since he's a curmudgeon and he pretends to be very busy; he's as likely as
not to bit-bucket your mail.  Better to ask the digest, which is a great
bunch of people who keep it going in spite of Dunn's fumbling administration.
It's almost a thousand people, and they manage enough material for a couple
of digests a week (assuming Dunn doesn't fat-finger it and lose submitted
material).

If you want to subscribe to the Mead-Lover's Digest, for heaven's sake
don't send a request to Dunn.  Send it to mead-request@ talisman.com, and be
sure to include your real name.  He handles the whole thing in an utterly
antediluvian style, so if you misspell "subscribe" it will slide right
past, but if you send an html request he'll pop an aorta.  And be patient!
He's got this thing about teaching people that mead requires patience,
which is just his way of excusing admin-laziness.

For my own part, I haven't worried much about carbonation levels on mead.
I just tend to split between "sparkling" and "still".  If I want a still
mead, I want it right down at zero: no fizz, spritz, petillance, nothing in
any language.  If I want carbonated, I want it to be substantial but not
enough to bust bottles...in other words, about medium beer-level fizz.  In
a thinner beverage like a mead, this means you don't get a head but you get
serious carbonation on the tongue.

A melomel can take substantial carbonation, and can also be made with more
substantial (darker) honey.  A sparkling raspberry melomel is wondrous.
Straight meads (no added fruits or herbs) are more challenging in the same
sense that light beers are less tolerant of faults.  In this arena, I don't
know of any useful rules.  What works for me is to wait until the mead is
fermented out, ready to decide how to finish it, and then taste carefully
to decide whether it should be bottled still as-is, primed to carbonate,
or stabilized and sweetened.  If you take this approach, you'll still make
some mistakes.  However, the mistakes will decrease as you gain experience,
and in any case you'll learn faster than you would with any dogmatic rules
on carbonation level.
- ---
Dick Dunn       rcd, domain talisman.com       Boulder County, Colorado  USA
   ...Reality is neat!  It works even if you don't believe in it!

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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:44:37 -0600
From: "John Lifer, jr" <jliferjr at misnet.com>
Subject: Re:brewery setup

I'm sometimes dense, but I'm not sure I understand your problem.  You will be
brewing on the
patio, which has a water supply.  Do you need a way to get rid of the excess
water?  If not, then
what is the problem with lugging your finished brew into the utility room?  I
would not suggest making
a piped route for your brew unless it could be straight down into utility.  Down
a hall is not too good
for the spousal approval rating.  It will lower your approval rating just about
as much as brewing in the
kitchen!  Just when your rating is about to go up by moving out of her domain:)
Be careful about hammers
and drills at anytime unless it is at the spousal request! and for spousal
benefit:)
John in Mississippi  -Home of the Goat Pen Brewery   And it does smell Goooood!

> John Myers Wrote:  I have a protected and
> semi-private patio with water supply, and this seems nearly ideal to set
> up a propane fired system.  The real issue is moving a large amount of
> liquid in a safe and sanitary way from the patio, down the carpeted
> hall, down a flight of steps into the utility room.   My thought
> was to run a dedicated pipe from patio to utility via the patio water
> supply.




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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:44:16 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: plaid and yeast identification

AlK writes concerning yeast identification: 
>It does indeed take a lot of experience to identify various yeast strains
>using a microscope.  One method that is used is to inject some of yeast "A"
>into something like a rabbit and have the rabbit's immune system create
>antibodies for the yeast.  You can then take the these antibodies and use
>them to identify other unknown yeast strains.  If there is a reaction, you
>know that you have yeast "A" again.  I don't recommend doing this with your
>pets, especially because you need a different rabbit for each unique strain..

>There is a less-complicated method that I highly recommend, although it takes
>a microscope, a lot of patience and hours of looking at various strains
>under roughly 800x.  You can identify various yeast strains by the colour
>of their marching bands' uniforms.


Well, that would explain it - the neighbor kids wouldn't let me borrow
their rabbit, so I borrowed my father-in-law's microscope (he's one of the
pointy headed science types) and looked at some Traquair House Ale. The
little yeasties were easy to identify - they were marching along with wee
tiny bagpipes and wearing the colors of the Stuart tartan.  

Does this cast some doubt on Pat Babcock's theory of avoiding plaid while
brewing - or does that apply only to brewers, not to the yeast themselves?
To be on the safe side, I don't wear plaid while brewing -  in the Orange
and Blue Gator colors it would definately shock those yeast into submission.  


Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle 
Gainesville, FL


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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:01:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Ninkasi at aol.com
Subject: Histamine reactions from beer

Greetings, All!

I've been lurking for a few months, and really enjoy reading everyone's
contributions--I've learned a lot!  

Anyway, I have a question.  A friend of mine sometimes gets a strong
histamine reaction when she drinks some beers, including some (but not all)
of my homebrews.  I've been trying to keep track of which ones do and don't
so I can figure out what it is, but then I thought, maybe someone already
knows the answer!  So--what in a beer might cause a histamine reaction?  How
could I avoid it, in the interest of friendly homebrew-sharing? 

******

Oh, on another note, I tried to justify my brewing by cost, and my husband
was sceptical.  but as soon as he tasted the first batch, he was asking me
when I wanted to brew again, and now he wants to learn how--I guess he
doesn't mind doing yucky female things like brewing with me as long as he
gets a good beer at the end!  

Thanks, everyone!

Ann
St. Louis

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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:26:37 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: bubblegum esters

I recently brewed my first hefeweizen. It turned out well - tasty, light,
refreshing. However, it didn't have much in the way of the clove-banana
flavors that I wanted. I had used the Wyeast Bavarian Wheat. So in hopes of
getting more of these flavors, I brewed the same recipe but used the Wyeast
Wheinstephen Wheat. 

When I took a hydrometer reading earlier in the ferment it seemed to be
developing these flavors well, a nice spicy taste. However, at bottling the
overwhelming flavor was bubblegum. In doing a search of the HBD archives,
several people mentioned that this flavor did recede over time. My question
is - how much time? I know that hefeweizens are supposed to be at their
best when fresh, I just wonder what sort of time frame to expect for this
flavor to (hopefully) recede. I suspect the cause was a too warm
fermentation, does this seem likely?

Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle
Gainesville, FL

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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:05:17 +0000
From: rlasser at pop.erols.com
Subject: Mexican Beer

Greetings one and all,

Does anyone have a recipe, advice or experience brewing any Mexican 
style beers?  I haven't a clue as to what malt or hops are used.  I'd 
love to try and make something along the lines of Negro Modelo.  
Thanks in advance,

Bob Lasser
Philadelphia
"Outside of a dog, a book is Man's best friend.  
 Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
 - Groucho Marx
rlasser at erols.com

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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:09:21 -0500
From: Wheeler <fwheeler at mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us>
Subject: Kegging and Sankey

I want to thank everyone who contributes to the HBD for all the answers as
well as the questions. God I love this sport! 

I need some help with a question about kegging. The Hoptech catalog has a
Sankey conversion kit in it. Has anyone used this kit? Any suggestions
about using a Sankey keg? How do you clean one of those kegs to get the
Miller/Bud stuff out so that it won't ruin the flavor of my brew?

TIA,
Red Wheeler
Blue Bell, PA

A quote from my favorite T-shirt, "Beauty is in the eye of the Beer holder." 




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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:44:26 -0800
From: Torque <wieleba at pce.net>
Subject: thanks

Thanks to everyone who e-mailed me about my kegging problem,  I
recieved  a lot of good info, and should have the problem fixed on a
week or two, Thanks again
Dan in the Burbs o'Buffalo

- --
*************************************************
 Because Life is Too Important to Drink Shitty Beer
         http://www.pce.net/wieleba/beerlink.htm

*************************************************



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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:52:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Frank E. Kalcic" <fkalcic at flash.net>
Subject: Unitank design

Fellow Brewers-

This winter I will be undertaking the construction of a stainless =BD Bbl
conical fermenter.  I have found some information on the WWW regarding
design ( mostly photos and brochures from commercial mfgrs etc.).  but still
have a number of questions that need answering before I arrive at my final
design.

1.  How necessary is it to install tri clamp style sanitary fittings at the
bottom of the cone.  Would standard pipe thread connections and a ball valve
be too hard to clean without disassembly and therefore a likely infection
source?
2.  I would like to install a sample port.  Would the upper portion of the
cone or the lower section of the straight walls be the best location?
(primarily with sanitation and cleaning  in mind) What type of fittings
should be used?
3.  For the top fittings I plan on installing a cornelius type gas (in) port
and a pressure relief / pressure gauge port.  For these fittings I am
planning on using standard pipe thread as the krausen should not reach the
lid and therefore should not be a place to harbor bacteria.  Is this
thinking correct? =20
4.  Would it be practical or worthwhile to attempt to install an tangential
inlet and use the sample port as an outlet to create a whirlpool to settle
cold break and any hot break that may have slipped by the hop bed at the
base of my boiler?  My main question here is would the conical bottom defeat
the whirlpool concept?

Any thoughts on the above are appreciated - especially if based on personal
experience.


Frank Kalcic,  Sunnyvale CA


<`)))>><            <`)))>><

            <`)))>><              <`)))>><          <`)))>><

                      <`)))>><            <`)))>><              <`)))>><


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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:20:24 -0700
From: "Lee, Ken" <KLee at resdata.com>
Subject: What went wrong?

I have had two out of three of my last three batches turn out, well,
incredibly horrible.  What's worse is that I am still drinking the stuff
and am not sure where I went wrong.  The commonality for the last three
batches has been starting to brew all-grain, but I don't thing this is
the problem.  The wort actually smells incredible and tastes really good
(for wort that is).  I put the liquid in the carboy when it is still too
hot (hopefully a wort chiller will be under the tree at Christmas), and
let it sit and settle for the night.  I pitch the yeast the next
morning.  In the last batch, I waited much too long.  After sitting in
the carboy for two days, I noticed that there was a bit of foam on the
top.  E-Gads, I said, and quickly dumped two packages of dry yeast into
the carboy.  The yeast started churning the wort in less that 30
minutes.  I knew something went wrong during bottling.  I always taste
the brew from the hydrometer reading flask.  This gives me a good
indictation of what to expect.  It has a fairly astringent taste, yuck!
The first all grain batch also had an extremey active fermentation.
There was also a lot of cloudy thick spongy like stuff in the carboy.
Any ideas?  I have always loved the different beers I have made, but
what is this wierd taste in the beer?  It is kind of astringent and
difficult to explain, but this is the second time this has happened.  Is
it that there is too much chlorine left in the water.  I bought a filter
for the second batch which turned out fine.  I just am at a loss for
what to do.

Kenneth Lee
klee at resdata.com

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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:09:20 -0800
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Subject: malted barley gelatinisation temps

A few thoughts on barley gelatinisation...

There are at least 3 different ways of measuring barley gelatinisation
temperatures (GT):
 - congo red staining (measures starch granual swelling by uptake of dye)
 - measurement of mash viscosity using an amylograph
 - detecting when the "polarisation cross" disappears from large starch
granules under a polarising microscope.

All 3 will give different values for gelatinisation temperatures. In
addition, one must state the proportion of granules that are affected.
For example, a given sample of barley may give a GT of 52C (50% of large
starch granules lose polarisation cross) to 61C (90% of large starch
granules stain with Congo red dye).

Barley starch exists in 2 forms:
large granules (~25um diameter, ~89% of starch by weight)
small granules (~5um diameter, ~11% of starch by weight).

A given barley sample provided the following GTs (1):

starch    method     temperature (C) at which granules are:
                      5%          50%         90% affected      
******   ******       ************************************** 
large   polarisation 40          52          57
        congo red    47          59          61
small   congo red    51          71          92

These values are for barley starch. Note the gelatinisation temperature
spans a very wide range of 40C - 92C!

The most important conclusions from the above are that about 90% of
barley starch will gelatinise by 60C in a mash. A rest around 70C and
higher will help gelatinise the small starch granules. At normal mash
temps there will *always* be some residual ungelatinised small starch
granules present. ie. All mashes contain some unconverted starch. This
helps explain the increased extract commonly seen with rests at 70C (50%
of small starch granules gelatinise around 70C)

By far the most practical method of measuring GT (ie. non-laboratory) is
the use of an amylograph (2). This instrument measures the viscosity of
a normal step mash. As the starch gelatinises a sharp increase in
viscosity occurs, followed by a subsequent decrease due to starch
degradation via amylase activity. The temperature at which the sudden
increase in viscosity occurs is defined as the gelatinisation
temperature.

A recent study (2) shows that GT is affected mainly by barley variety
and crop year. GTs varied between 52C and 59C as measured by amylograph
with a number of European malts (the majority being at the low end of
this ie. < 56C). Even for a given barley variety, GT can vary by about
4C for different crops.

What does not affect GT as measured by amylograph:
 - germination variables (eg. degree of modification, unless extremely
undermodified)
 - barley total nitrogen
 - barley storage time

The malster cannot realistically control GT. It is a parameter inherent
to a particular barley sample.

Maximum beta amylase activity is commonly said to occur around 60-65C.
Although this may be true in mash conditions (taking into account the
rate of starch gelatinisation) it is not true under laboratory
conditions when using pregelatinised starch. Optimum temperatures under
such conditions are actually much lower (around 50C) (3).

Taking all the above into account shows that a step infusion mash from
40C up to 70C will show starch degradation occurring even at 40C. The
range 50C-60C will show substantial activity, although rests around 70C
will help break down the small starch granules present in all malt, and
will hence improve extract. The amount of time spent in the critical
50-60C band will determine the amount of unconverted starch remaining by
the time 60C is reached (malt diastatic power is obviously relevant here
too). Hopefully this helps explain George Fix's results posted a month
or two ago, showing that just about all of the starch had been converted
in his step mash (40-60-70) by the time 60C was reached.

Andy Walsh (Sydney, Australia).

1. G.N. Bathgate et al. "A reassessment of the chemical structure of
barley and wheat starch granules". Die Starke 24. Jahrg 1972 no 10. p336
2. W.B. Oliver et al. "Factors affecting gelatinisation characteristics
in terms of commercial malting practice". Ferment. V10 #5. Oct 1997.
p317.
3. W.A. Hardwick. "Handbook of Brewing". 1995.

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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 1980 22:21:20 -0800
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: IRC request

How about a live IRC channel to discuss beer, brewing, and tasting? 



               Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
              "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
                "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
                         Big Man Brewing (R) 1996


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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 08:51:17 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: reusing yeast from carboy

SocialKing asks: 

>does anyone have any suggestions on collecting the yeast from a carboy(used
>as a primary fermenter)?  I would like to save/culture the yeast from the
>carboy but i'm affraid that it won't pour out easily and i can't find a
>utensil long and thin enough to reach down in there to collect ittt. any
>suggestionns would be greatly appreciated!

You might try leaving a small amount of beer in the carboy when you are
racking, you can then swirl this around to get the yeast in suspension. You
can then simply siphon out what you need. Or if you don't want to 'waste'
any of your beer, you could pour in some water that you have boiled and
cooled instead of the beer. 

An alternative that works very well (but for fermenting, rather than
culturing) is to put another batch of wort directly onto the yeastcake
after you rack off the first batch. This has the advantage of giving you a
huge starter. You will really minimize your lag time. It just takes a
little more planning/timing. Also, you want your second batch of beer to be
a same or similar type - or at least a style that will do well with the
same yeast. This technique is especially good if the second batch is a
higher gravity, 'big' beer, it gives you both the huge starter and also
prepares the yeast more for the high gravity than by doing a standard
smaller starter. 

Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle
Gainesville, FL 

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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:41:41 -0500
From: Saul Laufer <laufers at vaniercollege.qc.ca>
Subject: Agar and yeast ranching

With the recent and ongoing thread on yeast and yeast ranching I thought
I'd ask if anybody knew whether a Nutrient Agar (23 grams per liter)
could be used as a slant material.  The breakdown of the 23 grams is:
Pancreatic Digest of Gelatin-5 grams;  
Beef Extract-3 grams;  Agar-15 grams.  I was in touch recently with
David Draper about this and he suggested a test on a small quantity of
wort but thought it probably would be okay as a growth medium.  (An
excellent idea but because there seemed to be some very knowledgable
people commenting on propagating yeast I thought I would ask). BTW any
would be ranchers would do well to download his short article on
Culturing Yeast that is available at his website.  I have followed his
straighforward instructions and have always been successful.  No
autoclaving, and while he has recently been using agar the article
initially was for gelatin as a growth medium.  The reason I ask about
Nutrient Agar is that I found out that I can have, gratis, a neverending
supply.

Saul Laufer
Montreal, Canada

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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:46:30 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Proper Irish Moss use

I've read that you should hydrate your Irish Moss before adding, and a
couple of questions come to mind.

Is the day before necessary or is 15' in hot water enuf?

After hydration there is a jellied mass.  Can this be dumped in the
boiling wort intact or does it need to be stirred into solution with hot
fluids and then added?

cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:47:22 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Brewer customs

I hate to risk restarting the LABCO discussion so please don't, but is
it one of the customs of brewing, that recipe publication is the
perogative of the originating brewer?  

I'm not talking about the LAW, but what is the industry custom?  I
believe it was stated on the HBD without challenge that the originating
brewer had "rights" by custom.  

Are there other "customs" of the brewers guild that us novices should
know?

cheers, jim booth, lansing,mi
kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us


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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:45:32 -0500
From: "Michael Gerholdt" <gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu>
Subject: On leaving the Hops Behind

Aaron Spurlock made an inquiry about racking off of the hop pellet sludge
and break material, and wrote in HBD 2565:

>I boiled the wort with the pellet hops, and cooled the wort over about
30-40
minutes to 68F in an ice bath. Once that was done, I stirred the wort in a
circle to get all the "gunk" into the center of the pot

Aaron, your method here could be altered a bit. Do a *gentle* whirlpool
stirring at the beginning of your cold bath. There's no need for it to be
vigorous, and there's no need for it to be fast enough that it stirs up all
the stuff at the bottom back into the wort. Just make sure that the wort is
moving in a circular fashion. Then let it sit, and don't disturb it until
ready to rack off. This will accomplish three things: 1) the motion of the
wort will provide quicker cooling in the early stages, plus more even
cooling throughout the wort; 2) the deposit of matter in a cone near the
center of the pot will be achieved; 3) even after the circular motion of
the wort has ceased, for the last 20 minutes or so of the bath, solids will
drop out.

There will be some differences in temps in the wort from top to bottom and
center to edge. Don't worry about this or try to get it all even. Leave the
wort undisturbed. Use a probe thermometer to measure different locations.
When the top is at about 105 F or so, you should be ready to think about
racking, since it will be colder elsewhere. Of course, YMMV depending on
the vessel you are using and how cold ice gets in your neighborhood, etc.

If you do this, when your ice bath is complete your wort will also be
fairly clear and not much in the way of solids near the side of the vessel.
Skip the muslin bag or any other filter, and don't do any more stirring! Be
as unobtrusive as you can. Use a racking cane with a standoff tip, and rack
from the side of the vessel. Stick the bottom of the cane halfway down,
rack away, and then make sure you stay ahead of the surface of the wort as
it gets closer to the bottom.

You may need, at the very last, to tip the vessel toward the cane to get
all the liquid you want; and you may even suck some of the solids in.
That's when it's time to stop racking. Getting a little of the hops into
the primary never bothered me. I figured I paid for them, might as well get
a little more out of them.

In response to Aaron, Mark Nelson wrote in HBD 2567:

>I've never been very successful with pellet hops and siphoning them out. 
To
make a short story long, I resort to funneling everything into the primary,
letting the ferment go with all that trub for the first 3 or so days, then
going to secondary.  I figure this gets the beer off of the trub before it
can cause too many problems.

Have you never had a problem with this "fermentus interruptus?" I'd not
recommend this because by disturbing the yeast during this time, you may
prematurely bring fermentation to an end or slow it considerably. Are your
final gravities as low as you expect? If not, this _may_ be a factor. Try
adapting the procedure I described above to your equipment and system. Once
everything is in primary, don't disturb the yeast until you are sure
primary fermentation is complete. This time can vary, and there may be
times when three days is sufficient. But leaving virtually any primary
undisturbed for a full week will have no ill effects AFAIK. I virtually
never use any filtering devices or clarifying agents of any sort other than
time and gravity, and have been quite satisfied.

An interesting side note: I have been boiling 5 gallons on stovetop with
two burners. The stove has a SS back to it with a SS shelf above - a little
commercial stove. Because of this, the back part of the pot boils more
vigorously than the front, and the convection produced in the pot does me
the favor of depositing everything in conical fashion in the center of the
pot. I discovered this when I experimented with just doing an ice bath with
no whirlpooling. It takes me about 20 minutes longer to get to racking
pitching temp, but the since I don't have to disturb the wort at all, it
clears very nicely. And most of the crud is already in as good a cone as I
ever produced by whirlpooling.

Newtonian physics is our friend . . .

Michael Gerholdt in western New York state


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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:41:11 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Finnicky ferment


How do you spell finnicky?  Anyhow, I've cultured yeast from a bottle of
commercial beer.  I made a starter, but I think I stepped up way to quick.
>From a slant I went to about 80 ml of sterile wort.  After that had
fermented for a few days, I stepped it up to 1 quart (roughly).  I now have
a starter that tastes and smells fine.  It isn't fermenting well, though.
I have a 2 liter flask.  It shows very little activity.  If I swirl the
flask it will blow the stopper / airlock out.  It doesn't bubble.  If I try
to pitch this starter, will my beer do the same?  What might I be able to
do?  Start over and step more slowly?  TIA
Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI



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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:37:02 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Yeast from bottle conditioned beer


I checked out the web site of "yeast from bottle conditioned beer" and
didn't find my answer.  I'm drinking a bottle of Blanche de Bruxelles
Manneken Pis Belgian Wit beer.  It is produced by Lefebvre Brewing.
Anybody know whether the yeast is the primary strain? TIA

Nathan in Frankenmuth. MI



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:27:37 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: cleaning aluminum, yeast recovery

Brewsters:

Paul Kensler and Bob are discussing an effective way to
 safely clean aluminum brewpots. Paul suggests
 TSP ( tri-sodium phosphate).

TSP is alkaline and a good dispersant for inorganic particles,
and properly diluted may not be strongly basic enough to dissolve
 the protective oxide layer on the aluminum or to dissolve the
 aluminum.  In high enough concentrations or warm it may
 present problems - I don't know,  but am suspicious.

Aluminum is a very reactive metal but is useful because it forms a =

tough,  protective oxide layer which prevents further reaction.
When cleaning aluminum you should never use strongly basic
cleaners like oven cleaners, lye or strong bleach as they will react
with aluminum  to dissolve this layer and the metal and produce
 sodium aluminate and hydrogen gas. Allowing an aluminum kettle
 to remain in contact with strong base and to sit in a closed area
 could possibly even present an explosion danger and at best
 destroy the surface and more of the kettle.

Strongly acidic cleaners like muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) will
 have a similar effect since aluminum is in that class of compounds =

known as amphoteric and can react with both bases and acids.

My aluminum mash kettle is very bright where the mash contacts it,
 but does exhibit that recalcitrant brownish layer above that area. =

I always assumed the acids in the warm mash were sufficiently acidic
 to dissolve this layer.  Perhaps a warm solution of acetic acid
 (distilled white vinegar)  will remove the brownish layer if you
 find it disgusting.  It doesn't bother me as I suspect it is just colori=
ng
 components of the malt adsorbed on the aluminum oxide layer
 protecting the kettle.  Those of us whose birthdates are before
 the sixties may remember those horrible, indestructible purple, pink,
 green and other colored anodized aluminum drinking vessels.
 This coloring was accomplished by staining the oxide layer
 with various dyes to produce the effect.
- ----------------------------------------------------
I usually collect yeast from the secondary as it is much cleaner. =

 However, I have on occasion used it from the primary. To collect it, =

You can add cold boiled water to the yeast to get a thick pourable slurry=

and pour it out or better siphon it out to prevent possible contamination=

 from the neck of the carboy.  Allow it to sit overnight in the
refrigerator or
 for a day or two until all the yeast has resettled and pour off the
*clear*
 liquid.  Repeat this water addition and settling procedure at least =

two more times until you are satisfied that the yeast is clean and has
 little organic material to support bacterial growth, then store it in a
 capped beer bottle in the refrigerator under a water layer.  After I use=

 yeast several (3 to 5) times or it appears from tasting of the starter
beer
 that the yeast is infected, I give it a bath in 1% tartaric acid
 (home brew store) containing 50ppm of sulfite derived from =

sodium or potassium metabisulfite (homebrew store). =

 Some commercial craft brewers wash their yeast each time in
 1% tartaric acid and some pitch this directly into the next batch.

 After removing the stored yeast from the refrigerator, pour off the
 water and give it 12 hours or longer in a starter to rejuvenate. =

- ----------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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---