---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Home malting, cidery beer ("David R. Burley")
  Keg insulation: clarification (David S Draper)
  sugar and cidery flavors / flaked wheat / harvesting yeast (George De Piro)
  Extract Potential of Dark Grains (Brian S Kuhl)
  Wheat beer (Mark D Weaver)
  Re: Aquarium pumps (Grampus)
  hot break, sugar and keg conditioning ("Raymond Estrella")
  Pete's Wicked Ginger Clone (Bodie Heflin)
  Racking yeast.. (Mark D Weaver)
  RE: re: rye beer... (Mark D Weaver)
  Buena Noche Metallic flavour (Mark D Weaver)
  yeast - how to tell who is who... (Joe Rolfe)
  Rye Beer, ("David R. Burley")
  cp filling help (Jeff Sturman)
  coffee stout (Tom Lombardo)
  RE: Cranberry useage questions (Paul Kensler)
  Bubblegum & Wyeast 2124 ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  POINT ME TO REC.CRAFTS.BREWING (i.brew2)
  homebrew cooking - lamb carbonade and steak fries (smurman)
  re: Buena Noche Metallic Flavor ("Pat Babcock")
  re: Buena Noche Metallic Flavor (Mark D Weaver)



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:27:41 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Home malting, cidery beer

Brewsters:

Keith Manefy says:

>Is the drying phase of malting barley absolutely necessary?  Would it be=

>possible to germinate the barley to the required stage and then go
>straight to  the brewery for mashing. =


It is possible Keith, but then you would be using "green" malt and
get a different result than with cured malt. The old time Dutch and
Flemish Brewers used to ( and some may still for historical
reasons) dry their malt at room temperature in lofts and call it
"wind malt." If it is dried quickly, I suspect it will have a very high
enzyme content, especially beta amylase and the glucanases
and proteases. Check out the HBD archives.

Malting and Brewing Science says:

" Perhaps in the future there will be a market for pale malts
 that are only hand dry, i.e. contain perhaps 5-8% moisture. =

Such materials would be much easier to use than green malt
while retaining the advantage of a complement of highly
active enzymes and would have lost its "green" flavor."

Green malt has something like 17% or more moisture content,
so on drying it should lose 10-15% of its weight.

Although I know alpha amylase is generated and increases throughout
germination, I do remember reading in the HBD that the curing =

at around 110F  promoted the formation of alpha amylase in the
germinated grain, if I understood the author correctly. I have never
checked this out for authenticity. There may =

be other reasons, but for sure you have to dry the germinated grain
at low temperatures of 70-80F or so,  followed by a slightly higher curin=
g
temperature to get that "malty"aroma and flavor. For example, =

Munich malt is cured at a higher temperature than pale and =

does exhibit a maltier aroma and produces a maltier beer than
pale malt from the same maltster by all accounts. The enzyme content
of the Munich malt is lower than pale malt because of the higher cure T.

One thing you should think about is using something like a
cool/cold hairdryer or fan arrangement with a pillowcase
( but be careful of fire since it is not designed for this kind
of service)  or perhaps as Charlie Papazian suggests, =

just put the pillowcase with green malt in it into a cool/cold
clothes dryer to remove most of the moisture. Since moisture
migration from the inside of the grain is slow, you can follow
the drying over a day or so by weighing the bag to constant
weight. Of course, your clothes dryer isn't made for this kind
of continuous service either so you should still be careful,
but this is perhaps the safer alternative.  Then this malt can be
cured at 110F or so for pale malt and slightly higher temperatures
to make darker malts. Crystal malt is made with still wet
malt heated to the saccharificaion temperature and then to
boiling and higher briefly to caramelize the sugars. I suggest
you start here.  Lots of other information is contained in the HBD
archives..

I have produced "wind malt" on my basement floor and then =

dried it gently, but have never gotten anywhere near the efficiency
as I do now from professionally prepared malt.  But that was in
the days when I didn't fully appreciate the importance of the
 relationship of grinding my malt to the efficiency of extraction.
Maybe I'll try again some day. =

- -----------------------------------------
I have to agree that there is no reason to suspect table
 sugar over any other as producing cidery beer, but in the
 dark ages of homebrewing in 1969, my notebook from
 then definitely says "cidery" when describing my organo-leptic
 impressions of some of my Blue-ribbon malt extract efforts. This
 was an impression uninfluenced by any reading or discussion,
 since in those days such communication channels didn't exist.
 So I do believe that this impression of cidery homebrew is real.
 I also know that sugars are used routinely in commercial British
 beers and my British beers produced there from British extract
 were never cidery, despite adding sugar in some cases.
 I'm sure the cidery taste is due to bacteria-infected yeast
 (in the US,  yeasts were not available commercially in
 those days and passed from brewer to brewer) =

 and low FANs from too high a sugar content.
 Ask yourself why cider is "cidery".


Since yeast produce simple sugars they normally ferment from
 the sucrose, I have dismissed this sucrose-causes-cidery-beer myth
 long ago. I think it is time to put that myth to bed and to forget about=

the
 need touted in ancient British brewing books of that era, to produce
 "invert sugar" by boiling sucrose with citric acid. Yeast has plenty
 of extracellular invertase to do that automatically and you avoid =

the potential for that "drier" taste associated with the added acid.
 Keep the percentage of added sugar below 20% and you will be OK.
The higher the OG  from malt, the higher the percentage of sugar
 you can add and still get an acceptable result.  Whenever possible,
 use malt derived sugars from malt extract.
- ----------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =




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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:59:13 -0600 (CST)
From: David S Draper <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Keg insulation: clarification

Dear Friends,

It's my turn to say DUH.  I neglected one key fact in my last post asking
for advice on affixing insulation to my new keg mash/lauter tun.  It is
going to be direct-fired, sitting on a cajun cooker with that big ol'
flame raging beneath it (hence the use of fiberglass).  So whatever is
used to keep the fiberglass on the tun has to be able to take some heat,
possible direct flame.  Wire or metal strips of some sort would do, but I
am hoping for something a little more slick (as we all know, slickness is
very important) for easy on/off, and to keep my skin contact with
fiberglass to a minimum.

Many thanks to the half-dozen respondents I have already had, with helpful
suggestions were it not for the direct flame angle.  As I said, duh!

Cheers,

Dave, about 800 miles southwest of Jeff Renner

- -- 
David S. Draper		ddraper at utdallas.edu	Fax: 972-883-2829
Dept. Geosciences	WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper	Electron Probe Lab:
Univ. Texas at Dallas				972-883-2407
 ...That's right, you're not from Texas... but Texas wants you anyway...

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:19:21 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: sugar and cidery flavors / flaked wheat / harvesting yeast

     Hi all,
     
     Patrick responds to my post about corn sugar causing cidery notes when 
     used in excess.  He ponders why sugars might do this, and speculates 
     that only sucrose will cause this problem.
     
     The key word in this situation is "excess."  Excess 100% fermentable 
     sugar of ANY kind will thin out a beer and cause cidery (or winy, to 
     some people) flavors.  The reason, as I see it, is quite simple:  the 
     sugar becomes ethanol.  There are no body producing proteins or 
     flavorful compounds contributed by sugar.
     
     If too much sugar is added to a beer, the extra alcohol, with nothing 
     else to back it up, causes the beer to be thin and cider-like.  If a 
     tremendous excess of sugar is added, the effects on yeast health may 
     also add off flavors or cause fermentation problems.  I don't know how 
     much sugar would have to be added before that happens, though.
     
     There are many commercial beers that use added sugar, but you will 
     find that the vast majority of their fermentables comes from malt and 
     grains.  In this way, the sugar will dry out the finish and produce a 
     beer with lighter body than one might expect from an all-malt beer of 
     similar strength.  The beer will still be flavorful and very "beer 
     like" because most of the fermentables are derived from sources more 
     complex than sugar.
     --------------------------------
     Dan asks for opinions about his American wheat beer recipe, which will 
     feature 50-75% flaked wheat, the remainder being 2-row.
     
     That's a heck of a lot of flaked wheat!  I would worry about the 
     2-row's ability to convert all that starch (flaked wheat has NO 
     diastatic power, but plenty of starch in need of conversion).  I would 
     be very surprised if you were able to lauter that grain bill in a 
     reasonable amount of time, too.
     
     You really should try to use malted wheat if you want 75% wheat in the 
     grain bill, or just lower the amount of flaked wheat to 30-50%.  I 
     think you'll still have a tough lauter at 50% flaked wheat, though, 
     depending on your system.
     
     The flavor contribution of flaked wheat may be different from that of 
     malted wheat, too.  You may want to try a Wit beer if those are the 
     ingredients that are available to you.
     
     Remember:  there is a BIG difference between "gelatinized" and 
     "converted."  Flaked wheat is gelatinized, meaning the starches are 
     available for enzymatic conversion to sugar, but they are NOT already 
     converted!  Try tasting the flaked wheat.  Not very sweet, is it?
     ------------------------------------
     "Socialking at aol.com" (please sign your posts to the HBD) asks about 
     harvesting yeast from a carboy.
     
     It's quite easy, actually.  Just leave a pint or so of beer in the 
     carboy after racking out of it (you should be leaving some beer behind 
     anyway, so as to not get to much junk into the receiving vessel).  
     Swirl the carboy to resuspend the yeast, sanitize the mouth (of the 
     carboy) in your favorite manner, and pour the slurry into a sanitized 
     receiving jar.
     
     I find that 1 qt. glass milk bottles from "Ronnybrook Farms" work very 
     nicely as a storage jar.  A number 7 stopper fits them, which is quite 
     convenient for homebrewers.  If you are like me, and you don't like 
     milk, you may be able to find them for the price of the deposit ($1) 
     at the grocery store (sometimes I find them in people's recycling bins 
     while walking my dog; people must think me quite strange to be taking 
     them).
     
     You should feed the yeast some wort and keep it cool (38F, 3.3C) if 
     you aren't going to use it right away.  You can keep it a week or two 
     in this way (in my experience), but be sure to warm it slowly and feed 
     it a couple of days before the next brew session.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY; nowhere near Jeff Renner)

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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 97 11:02:00 PST
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Extract Potential of Dark Grains

Here is what I have found on this subject...

Table 4 - Nominal Malt Yields in Points/Pound/Gallon
Malt Type               % Yield PPG Max PPG(85%)PPG Steep
2 Row Base Malt         79      37      31      --
6 Row Base Malt         76      35      30      --
2 Row British Pale Malt 81      38      32      --
Biscuit/Victory Malt    75      35      30      --
Vienna Malt             75      35      30      --
Munich Malt             75      35      30      --
Brown Malt              70      32      28      8*
Dextrin Malt            70      32      28      4*
Light Crystal (10 - 15L)75      35      30      14*
Pale Crystal (25 - 40L) 74      34      29      22
Medium Crystal (60 - 75L)74      34      29      18
Dark Crystal (120L)     72      33      28      16
Special B       68      31      27      16
Chocolate Malt  60      28      24      15
Roast Barley    55      25      22      21
Black Patent Malt       55      25      22      21
Wheat Malt      79      37      31      --
Rye Malt        63      29      25      --
Oatmeal (Flaked)        70      32      28      --
Corn (Flaked)   84      39      33      --
Barley (Flaked) 70      32      28      --
Wheat (Flaked)  77      36      30      --
Rice (Flaked)   82      38      32      --
Malto-Dextrin Powder    100     40      40      40
Sugar (Corn, Cane)      100     46      46      46

Hope this helps you,
Brian

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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:35:19 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: Wheat beer

Dan,

Hi. I noticed your post in the digest about a wheat beer. My only concern
with the beer you described is the potential for a stuck and or slow
sparge. 75% wheat is a lot to go with. I have done several Decocted
weisse beers using malted wheat  at  55% of the grist and barley malt (2 row
pale without having any conversion problems)  at  45% of the grist (and a
few specialy malts for colour) (I have not used flaked wheat for my
weisse beers) and haven't had a problem with the sparge.

My experience with flaked wheat is that it will plug your mash tun quite
easily, so you may want to go with malted wheat (anyone know any
techniques to employ so that this does not happen with flaked wheat?).
Malted wheat will add a little bit of colour, whereas flaked wheat adds
little if any. (The difference between the two is that malted wheat is
malted, and flaked wheat is steamed, then flattened.) However, there may
be a way to get around the stuck sparge. There is a rumor that some
breweries employ Rice Husks to allow an efficient sparge while making
wheat beers with a high wheat content. Rice husks are reported to impart
no tannins or colour to the sweet liquor. Try as I might to find some I
can't. Anyone know where I can? (I personally prefer a drier wheat beer
with as much wheat as possible, so that might be adventageous...)

The 122F rest is a protein rest. It allows the proteins in the mash to be
broken down and prevents your beer from being overly hazy. While the
discussion in the HBD about the protein rest affecting wheat's head
retention charateristics may be true (I haven't followed that one too
closely, too busy at work),  I have employed this rest without any
problems regarding head retention in non-wheat based beers as well as
weisse beer.

As to the step infusion, this is what I employ on my wiesse biers (I have
taken out the steps for decoction and given the target temps. Please keep
in mind that these temps are for a decocted wheat beer, and that the
temps may not be the same for a regular wheat):


 .2 oz gypsum powder at start of mash.

Mash in  at  40C and hold for 5 minutes

Heat to 51C in 10 minutes, hold for 30 minutes (Protein rest)

Then raise to 62C and hold for 30 minutes

Then raise to 72C and hold for 30 minutes or until iodine test shows
conversion

Mash out at 76C for 10 minutes.

Sparge at 77C to 79C (to allow for cooling of sparge water and ease of
flow through the mash bed)

I do not know if these are the temps you want to hit for a regular wheat
beer, so you may want to research that a bit more.... Have you tried
Cat's Meow?

My '02 cents. Open to everyone for comments on how to better this mash
profile.

Regards,
Mark

>This weekend I am going to attempt a 50-75% flaked wheat beer (the
balance
>being some american 2-row, my HB store in town does not regularly carry
>6-row).

>I've heard recently here and on the HBD that a 122F rest is detrimental
to
>the head, so now I have questions on what step profile to follow for
that
>amount of wheat.

>Also, I have heard from others to use malted wheat and not flaked wheat
to
>aid conversion. I only have flaked wheat right now, but since it is
already
>flaked shouldn't it be mostly converted already. Plus the addition of
the
>2-row should help right?

>Any suggestions?

>TIA,
>Dan Cole
>dcole at roanoke.infi.net

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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:20:46 -0500
From: Grampus <grampusNOSPAM at InfoAve.Net>
Subject: Re: Aquarium pumps

Neal Parker wrote:

>>It's very tempting to chalk the air pump up to one to many gadgets and
leave it until the kids get a fish tank but I'd like to hear some HBD
opinion on the little beast. <<

I simply run my pump without any filtration on the incoming side at all, and
have had no problems of any kind with infections in 2 years of brewing.  I
suppose I could simply chalk it up to luck, but with the many spores and wee
beasties here in teh deep south of coastal Georgia, it seems a stretch to do
that.......

IMHO, just run the pump!  Does a FINE job of aeration based on the layers of
foam I get on my wort!

Paul Gennrich
Isp Brewing
Hinesville (near Savannah) Georgia






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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 97 02:36:51 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com>
Subject: hot break, sugar and keg conditioning

  Hello to all, 
Rob ponders Andrew's statement,
> Andrew notes in HBD 2566...
>> While boiling, the foamy gunk that pops up is hot break, this too should be
>> skimmed off as it forms.
>Hmm. I thought the hot break was the crud that collects on the bottom of
>the kettle just *after* the boil Are you talking about the foam that forms on 
the top 
>of the wort at the start of the boil? Same stuff? I've always wondered if 
>I oughta skim that off. 

  The foamy gunk that pops up is actually foamy gunk that is hanging out 
in your wort.  And it probably contains "some" hot break material.  
 The hot break is formed by the clumping together of protein molecules, caused 
by 
the bumpy ride of an active boil. (Churn, baby, churn) The degree of break is 
very 
dependent upon the pH of the wort.  Most of the stuff you see floating on top 
of your 
boil is just junk that made it past your false bottom, or grain bag, or 
zap-pap, 
or what-ever.  
  And yes, skim it off.  It is not necessary to do so.  It will not ruin your 
beer if you 
do not skim it.  But there is nothing beneficial that it will add to your 
beer,  and there 
is a good chance that grain particles that made it through the sparge are 
collecting 
there, and if left to remain in there could contribute to potential problems.

  Patrick Humphry responds to G.DeP. saying,

>It may be a matter of semantics here but, I was under the impression that 
>*cane sugar*, ie. sucrose, was the sugar that was responsible for the 
>development of cidery flavors.  Corn sugar is glucose, ie. dextrose, 
>sucrose is a disaccharide of glucose and fructose.
>Isn't dextrose added to some British ales?  These don't seem to have the
>"cidery" flavor attributed to the addition of sugar. 

  Sugar is sugar, if it is not derived from malt, and is used at high enough 
percentages,
it is going to contribute off flavors when fermented by brewing yeasts.  The 
Belgians
use lots of sugar in their brews.  Cidery is not a descriptive that one hears 
about
their beers.  And yes, the British add it to many of their brews.  It is a 
case of how much......
  Back when homebrewing meant mixing 3 pounds of (dubious) malt extract with 4 
cups
of white sugar, (6 if you like it strong) and sprinkling some 
Fleischmann's<sp> yeast over it,
yeah, you could expect some weird flavors.  As long as you have a good malt 
base to your 
recipe, and you pitch a healthy yeast starter, you should not have any 
problems flavor-wise
from as much as a 20% sugar contribution.  Note though, it will change the 
body, mouth-feel,
and final color of your beer.

  And finally Paul says,
>>Kevin said:
>>"I just don't seem to get the mouth feel carbonation [from
>>force-carbonated kegs] that I got from bottle conditioning."
>Although I know a LOT of people who are happy with the results from
>forced carbonation, (sticking my neck out here, so no flames!) I don't
>like the results myself and always do final conditioning in the keg.
>I prime the keg with corn sugar. The keg seems to condition faster than 
>bottled beer does, so it is usually ready to drink in 7-10 days.  I don't 
mind the
>wait, since I really prefer the results from keg-conditioned brews.

  No flames, Paul, I promise. But artificial, or force carbonating, is not 
conditioning.
When you add priming sugar to the keg, you are "naturally" carbonating, the 
same as
if you had bottled the whole batch.  It just takes you two weeks or so, 
instead of two 
days if you had put it under pressure.
  But conditioning is what happens during the time that the product spends 
after its 
finished state. Alcohol, malt, and bitterness achieving (we hope) a state of 
balance.
You are correct in thinking that a beer that was just racked from the 
secondary 3 days 
ago, then force carbonated, may not be ready (conditioned) to drink.  But your 
IPA 
that was racked, and primed in the keg 14 days ago is not conditioned (ready) 
to 
drink either.

Ray Estrella
Cottage Grove,  MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ********


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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:56:44 -0600
From: Bodie Heflin <bodie at shreve.net>
Subject: Pete's Wicked Ginger Clone

I have been asked to make a beer like Pete's Wicked Ginger brew. Anybody
got any recipes that would come close. It isn't a holiday type brew just
seems to have a fair amount of ginger. Any suggestions appreciated.
Bodie
Dilla Brew

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:12:48 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: Racking yeast..

John,

Have you thought of purchasing a Fermen-Tap stand that turns the carboy
upside down? It is supposed to allow you to take the yeast out without
racking. I have one on order ($20), I too used to let my beer sit on the
yeast, although I would pitch new yeast each time, I guess now for $20 I
can re-use yeast that costs me $3.75 a "pop". I never had any problems
until a few batches ago when I got excessive yeast bite, the beer sat on
the yeast for 4 weeks (too much to do at work, not enough time). 

Sante,
Mark

(O=00=O) / (o---tii-o)
(O=00=O) / (D        D)
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose -  :  headbrewer at juno.com  or 
AwfulQuiet at aol.com

>Mike Dingas questioned the practice of leaving beer on the sediment for
>3 weeks or more.

>My brewing situation is perhaps odd in that I brew on the weekend at a
place
>I have out of town.  I usually brew one weekend and rack the next but
not
>infrequently I cannot get back the next weekend and leave the beer in
the
>fermenter for two weeks.  Occasionally it has gone three weeks.

>I am now setting the dubious record of five weeks.  I brewed on the 25th
>of October and didn't get back until last weekend.  However, I had
conflicts
>and could not rack then.  I will finally rack off the sediment Friday,
after
>Thanksgiving.  I won't reuse the yeast as it is the last of my usual
series
>of three with the same yeast.  I expect the beer to be fine, though.

>I guess I will find out.

>John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - (brewing in Palestine, Texas)

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:46:24 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: RE: re: rye beer...

Sheena,

Maybe decoct it???? I have no idea, thought I would mention that
though... The characteristics of rye are famous for a slow run-off in the
sparge, making wheat look like a fun time... Decoction, in my weisse bier
experience, helps to speed the sparge up... I had a rye at Rockbottom in
Denver last year during GABF, very good. Only spoiled by the young people
in back of us trying to throw their food, french fries,  in our
beers.....

Regards,

Mark

(O=00=O) / (o---tii-o)
(O=00=O) / (D        D)
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose -  :  headbrewer at juno.com  or
MDWBrewer at aol.com
Please Respond Direct

>Wise Ones!
>I want to make a rye beer with 8 pounds Klages and 4 pounds rye malt?
>What would be the best way to mash it? I understand that I'll need a
>good book and some brews handy, but I don't want to be at this all
>night. Any suggestions?
>Sheena

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:56:55 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: Buena Noche Metallic flavour

Hi all,

Thought I might ask this on here. A family member recently purchased two
cases of Buena Noche (a "bock" produced by Dos Equis, a darker beer with
almost the same flavour as regular Dos Equis, I think they add chocolate
or black patent to get the colour due to the flavour profile). When
consumed out of the bottle it tastes fine. When poured in a glass (any
glass) it developes a metallic flavour. It isn't soap or anything (washed
and rinsed the glasses very well using regular hand dishwashing soap as
well as other glasses from the dishwasher). Might this by a reaction to
O2 when the beer is poured? Or some other chemical reaction?

Maybe it should it only be served in plastic? Kidding....

Thanks, please reply direct.

Sante,
Mark

(O=00=O) / (o---tii-o)
(O=00=O) / (D        D)
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose -  :  headbrewer at juno.com  or  
HeadBrewer at eci.com   (the H and B must be in caps!)

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:51:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: yeast - how to tell who is who...

whilst attending siebels, Dr Joe Power found these commercially 
available tubes of various sugars, a sample would be drawn thru
and in several days you would be able to tell what sugars the "beast"
could deal with...kinda neat toy but probably expensive for homebrewers.

anyone know of these devices?? not sure if they were ever successful
in commercial applications or not....

another option to determine the beast or atleast notice them, is a giant
colony  plating.  you need to dilute the hell out of the sample, such that
you will have very few cells per ml and plate on a good media (pick one)
that has good longevity....the cells colony will be quite charactized by
the shape and speed of growth.  this takes practice and good note keeping.
but after some time you'll be able to pick out your favorites with good
accuracy.

care must be take to insure the plate does not dry out, before the end of
the process..


good luck
joe

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:19:59 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Rye Beer,

Brewsters:

Sheens McGrath says:

>I want to make a rye beer with 8 pounds Klages and 4 pounds rye malt?
>What would be the best way to mash it?

I suggest you also use some dark crystal malt - about a pound.

The biggest problem is that the rye has a lot of gelatinous
glucans in it and I heartily recommend a a 105 F beta-glucanase
mash for 30 minutes, a 122F protein/glucnase mash for
15 minutes, 135F MMW protein for 30 minutes and then to 158F
with hot water for 90 minutes. It is a MUST to mash out at 170F =

or so.  Even so, the viscosity of the wort will be high and it is
negatively logaritmically dependent on the temperature -
the reason most mashes stick. The trick is to keep the
wort temperature and the bed temperature UP .   Using my two pass
crush method I have a very free running lauter, so I just drain
all the wort off in a couple of minutes at full open without re-cycling,
put it in a kettle and start to heat it back to 170F. If you historically=

don't have such a quick draining mash, then mix in rice hulls
( HB store can supply them)  in the mash at the beginning of the =

mash to make sure you remove all the starch from them. =

In the meantime, sparge the grainbed with a little  water
around 180F on top and then add the hot 170F wort back
to clarify it and proceed to remove the clarified wort and sparge =

with extra hot 180F water.  If you held for 90 minutes at 158F
you will not have a starch problem.  This unorthodox method works
so well you will hardly know you are working with rye and the beer
will be excellent with good  color, clarity and mouthfeel as
many have attested to.

I have even made a wheat/rye beer this way without a
stuck mash and gotten recoveries in the 90's as always.

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =



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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:30:06 -0700
From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman)
Subject: cp filling help

Denis Barsalo asks about counter pressure filling and I think I have a few
suggestions that may help.

First, 18 psi seems pretty high.  I've only dealt with two different cp
fillers and both seemed to work best at between 6 and 10 psi.  What brand
and type of cp filler is it?  I would guess it should be run at lower
pressure which should help alleviate the foaming problem.

And yes, cold bottles are recommended.  The colder the better.  I sanitize
my bottles, cover them with sanitized beer caps, and let the bottles sit in
the garage for at least 30 minutes prior to filling (I only cp fill during
the winter months.)  A side by side test with warm and cold bottles proved
to me that cold bottles make a big difference in foamage avoidance.

It was unclear in your post whether or not you purge the bottle before
filling, but purging is important.  After you open the co2 gas valve on the
filler and pressure the bottle with co2, open the release valve and let the
co2 bleed through the bottle for 4 to 5 seconds, then close the release
valve and continue as you described in your post.  This will purge the
bottle, removing most of the fresh air and replacing it with co2.

Filling takes a big chunk of my time.  I fill maybe one bottle every 2 to 3
minutes, including filling, capping, cleaning and sanitizing.  I only cp
fill in the winter in my garage when the temperature is way below freezing.
This keeps the whole cp filling system very cold, as well as the beer,
which reduces foaming.  I'm sure the cold, dry Wyoming air is also quite
unfriendly to unwanted beasties.  I keep a spray bottle of everclear on
hand to occasionally squirt the filler, table, bottle necks, bottle caps,
etc.  If this sounds like a pita, it is.  But I only cp fill beers that I
feel are exceptional, and those bottles go to competitions only, or maybe a
few to celebrate a special occassion.  And I am always careful not to spill
the beer on myself lest my long johns will freeze to me.

A few other tips: 1) Filling the same style bottles makes the process go
quicker.  Many bottle sizes are out there.  The differences in heigth
require you to adjust the stopper on the cp filler which can be a pain. 2)
Invite a friend to help.  CP filling is a three handed process. 3) If the
beer foams too much you must drink the spillage from the release valve.
The first beer I ever cp filled was a barleywine with lots of spillage.  I
didn't feel very well the next morning... 4) The biggest improvement I made
to my process is moving it to the garage and keeping everything ice cold.
I get very little foam and I was able to increase the pressure, thus the
speed of filling. 5) Keep the CP spotless.  I disassemble mine before each
session and give it a thorough cleaning with B brite, then a soak in
iodophor.

jeff
casper, wy
current temp:  21 F  at  8 am



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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:34:26 -0600
From: TomL at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: coffee stout

Happy post-Thanksgiving.

I've seen a few Q's about coffee stout, so I thought I'd throw in my
recipe.

This was a Chocolate-Coffee-Oatmeal Stout, which I called "Basic 4", since
it covers the basic 4 food groups.  It was an extract+specialty batch, in
which I didn't mash the oatmeal (cuz I didn't know any better at the time,
but now I do).  In any event, it turned out good, but I probably will skip
the chocolate next time.

for 5 gallons:

6.6 lbs Northwest Gold M.E.
0.5 lb. Crystal malt   (~40L)
0.5 lb. Roasted Barley
0.25 lb. chocolate malt
1 lb  flaked oats
3 oz. Malto-dextrine powder
2 cups decaf coffee, brewed
2 oz.  bitter bakers chocolate (unsweetened)
1 oz. northern brewer hops
1 pkg yeast labs austrailian ale yeast (dry)

Don't boil the coffee - add it after the boil, as you would aroma hops.

This beer required a lot of aging in the bottle.  After a month, the
chocolateyness was overwhelming.  After a few months, it mellowed and the
coffee became noticable.

Overall, a worthwhile experiment, but I probably won't do it again (I
prefer a more traditional stout).  

Go easy on the hops, because the coffee and baker's chocolate will add
bitterness.

There were a few "floaters" of chocolate in the bottles - couldn't get rid
of them, but they did no harm.  

BTW, I jus got Al K's new book, "Homebrewing Volume 1". I wish it had
existed a few years ago.  Great book!  (#include <disclaimer.std>)  Now
that I've just started all-grain, I'm looking forward to "Volume 2". 
When's it due, Al?

Tom Lombardo (In Rockford, Illinois)

"I never met a stout I didn't like."  - TL



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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:39:03 -0600
From: Paul Kensler <pkensler at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Cranberry useage questions

Chris asked: "I am asking for some advice.
Have any of you had success with using cranberries in a beer?"

Chris,
Yes, I have used cranberries in beer before, and will be brewing my
annual cranberry beer next Monday.  I use an American Wheat (1.045 OG,
17 IBU) all-grain recipe as the base.  Here's my procedures and notes:

Amount:  Previously, I made a 5-gallon batch, and split the beer in half
 - one half with cranberries, the other half without.  For this amount, I
used 2) 12 oz. bags of fresh cranberries.  Monday, I will be doing my
first 10-gallon batch on a RIMS system at the local homebrew store
(Thanks, Jack!) and plan on using 6) 12 oz. bags for one half of the
batch (5 - 5.5 gallons).  Generally, about 1) 12 oz. bag per gallon of
beer.  One of these days, I want to try an addition of RW Knudsen's
"Just Cranberry" juice (unsweetened, no preservatives).

Preparation:  Soak the fresh, unfrozen cranberries in a weak Iodophor
solution for 5-10 min., stirring the cranberries often to submerge the
floaters.  Pick out any shriveled or rotten berries.  Strain the berries
and place in zip-lock bags, and put in freezer.

Usage:  I remove the cranberries a day or so before adding them to the
secondary fermenter, to let them defrost in the fridge.  Once defrosted,
I lightly crush them (just enough to break the skins) while still in the
ziplock bags.  After primary fermentation, I dump the berries into the
secondary (plastic bucket) and rack the beer on top of them.  Secondary
fermentation lasts about a week, so after 10 days I rack the beer into a
tertiary vessel for final clearing.  Bottle and prime as usual.

Result:  Beer turns out almost orange / copper in color, with a pale
pink head.  Sour/tartness of the cranberries is evident, slight fruity
addition to the aroma.  The cranberry beer always seems to have a better
head than the "regular" half of the batch, maybe because of the
additional fermentable sugars, resulting in slightly higher
carbonation.  I have not had any problems with infections or pectin haze
with this procedure - cranberries are really pretty easy to deal with. 
I have used other fruit before (mostly peaches), and always end up with
a really bad pectin haze whenever I "blanche" them in boiling water. 
Given that the cranberries are so smooth and firm when fresh, I think a
good Iodophor soak would work best for them.

Hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Brewing with berries in Plano, TX

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:54:04 -0800
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Bubblegum & Wyeast 2124

In HBD 2570 Jeff Renner writes about getting  bubblegum flavor after primary
ferment of a CAP with Wyeast 2124:

>I'm not ready to draw a conclusion about fermenting 2124 at 56F on the
>basis of one trial, but I don't think I'll do it again.  I did it this
>time because I wanted to save a few days.

Just a data point, used 2124 for my first lager, a CAP, ferment started at 57
degrees for one day then 8 days at 54 degrees before racking to secondary.  This
was great beer, especially for a first lager.  No hint of bubblegum.  Love that
"Your Father's Mustache" recipe, BTW.
 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:56:01 -0500
From: i.brew2 at juno.com
Subject: POINT ME TO REC.CRAFTS.BREWING

I just got internet service, but I can't seem to get to the good
newsgroups.  I found an address for an open server, but when I request
rec.crafts.brewing I get a message saying that this group is not stored
on that server and it has to download from another location.  Downloads
never seem to occur.  All the smut and trash groups download fine :-(  
Can anyone suggest a news server address, that doesn't require an
account, which stores such groups as rec. crafts.brewing, alt.brewing,
etc?  

Private E Mail best.  Thanks!
Dave Blaine
I.Brew2 at Juno.Com

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:24:35 -0800
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: homebrew cooking - lamb carbonade and steak fries


Well, we've made bread and mustard, but now it's time to cook
something a little more substantial.  Something capable of soaking up
large volumes of homebrew.  

Carbonade is a Flemish word I believe, and probably translates to
something like "charred flesh".  In practice, it resembles good ol'
Yankee stew.  The best part of this dish to me is the steak fries
slathered in sauce, but before we get there we need to make the
carbonade sauce.

Start with 3/4 - 1 lb. of diced lamb.  You can use beef if you prefer,
but I think lamb works best.  If you do use beef I'd recommend getting
a good cut of meat like sirloin tips rather than beef chuck (aka stew
meat).  If you use beef chuck it will take hours to tenderize it, and
even then it probably won't be that great.

1/2 white onion sliced/diced.

In a corningware-type pot on the stovetop brown the onions and meat
with some salt and pepper over medium heat until all the meat has been
browned.  Turn down the heat and add 12 - 16 oz. of beer and cover.
You want to use a good strong ale for this recipe - no light pilseners
here.  The classic would be a Saison or Oud Bruin.  Add enough beer to
cover the meat.  Don't add too much beer because we're going to reduce
what's left and use it to make the sauce.  Nobody wants wimpy, runny
sauce.

Simmer this covered on the stovetop until it's done:) Let it go at
least 1 hour.  When you're ready, remove the meat from the beer/sauce
and set aside.  Turn up the heat and mix in 1 - 2 tbsp. of flour.
Reduce this down until it makes a nice sauce.  If you've ever made a
rou, this is basically what your doing now.  When the sauce looks
good, add the meat back and warm it up.  That's it.  Serve the meat
with sauce spooned over top.

Now for the fries.  While the meat is simmering, cut 1 baking potato
into steak fry sized pieces (about 2 inch by 1/2 inch by 1/4 inch).
Soak these in warm water for about 10 minutes.  Remove them from the
water and put them in a baking dish.  Preheat the oven to 450F.
Drizzle olive oil over the fries and toss them so that both the baking
dish and the fries have a little coating.  Season them well with black
pepper and garlic salt.  (Hint: experiment with chopped garlic).  Cook
these in the oven for 30 minutes, turning once at the halfway point.
Serve with the carbonade, and be sure to use them to clean up every
last bit of sauce.

This will serve two people lightly (with salad and another veggie
it'll be a meal), or one person well.  Serve with a good hearty ale.

Bon appetit,

SM

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:20:23 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: re: Buena Noche Metallic Flavor


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver) writes of  Buena Noche Metallic 
flavour...
 
> Thought I might ask this on here. A family member recently purchased
> two cases of Buena Noche (a "bock" produced by Dos Equis, a darker

Um, no. It is a seasonal oscura Graf-style vienna beer. It is brewed
for the Chrismas season

> beer with almost the same flavour as regular Dos Equis, I think they
> add chocolate or black patent to get the colour due to the flavour
> profile). When consumed out of the bottle it tastes fine. When
> poured in a glass (any glass) it developes a metallic flavour. 

I've noticed this as well - a distinctly tin-can flavor. Since the 
beer is brewed for the Christmas season, and I've never managed to 
acquire a fresh sample of the beer (and since George and Laurie Fix 
speak so highly of it in Marzen, Oktoberfest and Vienna, I've always 
attributed this to be some sort of  aging reaction - paricularly 
since most references (all I've read) attribute metallic off flavors 
to contact with uncoated metallic - ferrous, specifically - surfaces 
or compounds. Like with Oly, maybe it's the water.

Never drank it out of the bottle to compare as I've always been
taught that to drink from the bottle is an insult to the brewer...

If anyone DOES have the answer, contrary to Mark's request, please
post it here to the Digest. I'm interested, too!

See ya!

Pat Babcock  (About 20 miles east and to the south of Jeff Renner)

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan          pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor            janitor@hbd.org
AOL FDN Beer & Brewing Maven        BrewBeerd at aol.com

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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:21:13 -0800
From: headbrewer at juno.com (Mark D Weaver)
Subject: re: Buena Noche Metallic Flavor 

Pat,

>Um, no. It is a seasonal oscura Graf-style vienna beer. It is brewed 
>for the Chrismas season

Actually, the label calls it a German bock, however it might not be as
true to the bock style....

>I've notied this as well - a distincly tin-can flavor. Since the beer 
>is brewed for the Christmas season, and I've never managed to acquire 
>a fresh sample of the beer (and since George and Laurie Fix speak so 
>highly of it in Marzen, Oktoberfest and Vienna, I've always 
>attributed this to be some sort of  aging reaction - paricularly 
>since most references (all I've read) attribute metallic off flavors 
>to contact with uncoated metallic - ferrous, specifically - surfaces 
>or compounds. Liek with Oly, maybe it's the water.

True. Are the bottle caps up to par? ;-) I have to admit, I have never
had a fresh Dos Equis "regular" (I live in CT), but the ones I have had
also had a metallic flavour. Maybe it is a charateristic of the water or
the brewery equipment (?)

>Never drank it out of the bottle to compare as I've always been taught
that to drink from the bottle is an insult to the brewer...

I agree with you, but sometimes when a beer is offered to you in the
middle of a field when you are mowing the lawn, the only other
alternative is to drink it out of your hand.....

Maybe someone who knows a little more about Cerveceria Cuauhtemoc
Moctezuma can shed some light....

Regards,
Mark

(O=00=O) / (o---tii-o)
(O=00=O) / (D        D)
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose -  :  headbrewer at juno.com  or 
AwfulQuiet at aol.com

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