---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  The Jethro Gump Report / Part 1 ("Rob Moline")
  The Jethro Gump Report / Part 2 ("Rob Moline")
  NA Brew ("Rob Moline")
  RE: Newbie kegger (Andrew Quinzani)
  Irish Moss and Plastic Mashing Bucket (Brad McMahon)
  Re: RIMS or RSMS? (Dion Hollenbeck)
  High Altitude Homebrew (Tidmarsh Major)
  Re: LA homebrew & alcoholics (dfikar)
  Chlorine/bleach part 2 ("David R. Burley")
  Chlorine/bleach Part 1 ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Mash Efficiency (John Rezabek)
  Calcium Phosphate (AJ)
  homebrew evaluations (Ale conner)
  Korma, courmi, coirm - Historic Celtic drink. (Dan Cole)
  RIMS, Soma, Dr Dogma, Corn and the Bottom line (Jack Schmidling)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:25:43 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject:  The Jethro Gump Report / Part 1

			The Jethro Gump Report
>From: Fred and Sue Nolke <fnolkepp at corecom.net>
>Subject: Airlocks & Blow Off Tubes
>Anyone know of any soaks that allow beerstone to be rinsed out of  the
>carboy?

	I've used a nitric/phosphoric acid blend, by Five Star. This will also
passivate stainless.

>From: Steve <JOHNSONS at uansv5.Vanderbilt.Edu>
>Subject: Triple Bock
>In HBD #2589, Scott Moore talks about Sam Adams Triple Bock as being 
>"sickenly sweet, no hop balance, and undercarbonated."  I agree that when
you
>taste this for the first time, it comes off as being something very far
>removed from any malt beverage any of us would choose to drink, let alone
>brew!  However, like many strong ales and barleywines, I suspect that this
>beverage may be better with some age on it, and probably benefits greatly
>from some cellaring.  

	Had this  at  GABF, 1st in '94, nectar totally unrelated to the product I
have bought commercially. Was told that GABF T-B was 'reserve' quality.
Agree with aging theory. Intend to open one, now 2.5 yo, as soon as I
finish what is in the glass now. will report  at  the end of this post. 

>Subject: Re: Exploding bottles

	Gotta say, there's too much speculation on this one. The facts are...the
standard head space works. Bottles USUALLY become explosive as a result of
excess fermentables in the closed vessel. It seems to me that the amount of
'air', read O2, is insignificant to bomb production, as we are dealing with
yeast that we really are not asking to reproduce, merely do a bit more
'chewing.'  Of course, as an untrained brewer, wot the hell do I know?
	Wot I know is what has worked for me, and the major's, and the micro's,
whether bottle conditioned or not. Pro concerns with O2 relate to spoilage,
and fill level is a regulatory, and consumer protective issue, not to
mention economy.
	The experience that guides me on the headspace issue, in regards to
EXPANSION, and in complete agreement with Pat Babcock on this one, is the
filling of growlers  at  LABCO. Some well meaning bartenders would, against
advice, fill growlers to the top and cap. Yeah, the customer gets an extra
few ounces of beer. But, if it's hot outside, and the beer in the bottle
served from a 35 F tank, and then placed in a hot car, while the customer
goes to the next shop, etc.....the damn thing lets loose, with a gentle
'crack' of glass, ....I know 'cos I've been in a vehicle and heard
it.....and there's a 1/2 gallon of beer in a carpet.
	But, if there had been a normal airspace in the bottle, the expanding
brew, (expanding secondary to heat,) would be able to compress the
airspace, and not explode the vessel.
	I am also one of those stupid enough to fill kegs with compressed gas, and
I am thankful that the regulators had 'pressure relief devices' on them.
Gee, imagine that, a 'redundant' safety device! If the gas delivery tank,
pressurized at say 800 - 3000 lbs/sq.in. delivered gas to a closed vessel
and the regulator failed, the relief would have blown before the tank did.
Notwithstanding the ratings of the tanks, which as Pat reports, are
substantial. 
	Allusions of  disaster, IMHO, are overstated, unless your Christian name
is Beavis or Butthead.
	Enough banch!
 
>From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
>Subject: clean your pump
>I have a magnetic coupled pump <SNIP>When I recirculated my last brew for
chilling, however,
>it wouldn't pump at all. <SNIP>So I took the pump apart and was appalled
to see
>quite a lot of brown crud on the impeller and shaft, which caused enough
>friction to keep the impeller from turning.  It appeared to be beer stone
>and organic matter.  

	Jeff raises a point that is near and dear to me, tho'  exogenous
circumstances have kept me from commenting on it in pro forums...so, I'll
moan here. 
	It is my firm belief that all other factors being considered, the major
etiology of off flavors and infection in micro beers, especially brewpubs,
is exactly what Jeff relates to in his own pump. 
	If one will agree that the majority of BP's have a turnkey system, one
must also agree that they have a single pump, (some have more) invariably
located under the brewer's platform, that does all the work.
	Yet the majority of these operators only open their pumps once every six
months or so, if that. Reliance on chemical CIP standards doesn't always
cut it. 
	To repeat Jeff..."Clean your pump."

>From: Jim Nasiatka <Jwylde at sirius.com>
>Subject: RFI
><SNIP>stainless tanks and such, I think it was called the "California
Trade 
>Association" or something like that.  

	Being in California, you should also find the "Wine Country Classifieds."
 at  a minimum, any winery nearby will have access, it is a very useful paper,
that has also begun classifying brewing and dairy equipment suitable for
use by brewers.

>From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
>Subject: RE: Hempen Ale
>Hempen Ale will not ruin a perfectly good otherwise infringement of your
>privacy.  Since, as you are aware, it is made with only hemp seeds, there
>is no THC.  

	So, when I take my next drug test, (which I won't.....it's an
insult)...and they find I'm using opiates, 'cos I had eaten "Poppy Seed"
bagels or bread, I will call you to clarify this for them. 
	The opiate screening does regularly test 'pos' for 'good bread' eaters. I
am yet to see the evaluations for Hempen Ale.
	
>From: "Zeller, Eric (NLC-EX)" <ezeller at nlc.com>
>Subject: Stupid Question time!
>Has anyone thought of using an old style coffee percolator to sparge
>grains. 

	Been done, some years ago, on this forum. But the device used was not a
percolator, but the cheap and ever present drip coffee maker. Made sense to
me  at  the time, but I cannot vouch for it. Check the archives.

Jethro Gump

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:26:34 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report / Part 2

			The Jethor Gump Report / Part 2
>From: Rosalba e Massimo Faraggi <rosamax at split.it>
>Subject: Re:Quadrupel/Belgian beer trip report
>BTW, after my beer trip to Belgium and the Netherlands this year, I
>couldn't resist to write my little beer diary with some beer places of
>interest. If anyone is interested, I could post here or ............

	Please, Sir...Post here! 

>From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
>Subject: Keggin' Fridge / Rochefort Yeast
>Looking for help from all those with multiple kegs on tap.  <SNIP>
Am I better off to invest the
cash
>into a series of regulators that allow me to hold different kegs (and
>beers, of course) at different pressures, or can I get away with just
using
>a line splitter to run multiple kegs at one pressure?  

	You can get away with anything, but what you want is a regulator at the
tank that then goes to a manifold that has a regulator for each beer
vessel. You should also get a check valve to place after each 'vessels'
regulator, to prevent any back flow of brew to regulators, should you have
a deficit in pressure in any area. This is cheaper than buying new bits for
 regulators, or even just cleaning those that have filled with brew. Or
even having brew from one vessel flow to another.
	The best check valves, IMHO, are those that have a simple rubber 'flap
valve,' that allows gas to flow one way, but not the other, rather than
then ubiquitous 'ball on a spring.'  These rust.
	Call Kay  at  Foxx.

>Subject: Nitrogen/CO2

	I don't buy ANY of the most recently posted arguments...the archives will
explain my viewpoints...
	
	Again, as an untrained brewer, 'wot the hell' do I know, but that it
worked for me...

	!. Temperature. 32-35 F.
	2. Blend. I recommend a 37/63 CO2/N2 blend.  at  least for the system I used.
	3. Pressure. High, 36 psi on the blend, for initial force
carbing/nitro'ing...and serving.
	4. Faucet. Gotta have the Guinness faucet, or clone thereof.

	Check the archives, and the latest "New Brewer," they have a major article
on this. I don't agree with all the author says, but, then again,
*.*............hell, I just don't feel like arguing .....
	Next thing you know, ******* will get into it with ******, and ****. and
then on and on...

>From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Recipe suggestions, anyone
>. I bought two =
>3.3 lb cans of Brewferm Diablo Belgium and have no idea what to try. I =
>thought of a Trappist Ale but am not yet out of the newbie stage. 

	The best extract brew I ever made, IMHO, was 2 cans of BrewFerm Framboise,
boiled, 5 gallons batch from a 2 gallon stove top pot, then diluted with
tap H2O, no additions, except for 5/8th's cup dextrose for priming. Great
beer, one that brought praise from one of my brewing mentors, Klugh
Kennedy. 
	Try it with what you have. BrewFerm is a good product. Even old, it might
surprise you.

>From: kbjohns at peakaccess.net
>Subject: Re clean your pumps
>Brewers should also be aware that neither bronze or plastic pumps have
>sanitary connections and threads are a great place for crud to accumulate
>and grow bacteria. You should take care to insure connections are free
>from build up.

	Well spoken.

Random Ravings...
	Soon to be a "Professionally Trained" brewer, as my scholarship  at  Siebel
begins next week, I expect to be soon able to go 'head to head' with the
'experts.' Nah.....why bother!

	It is my great pleasure to announce that I will soon be enjoying the
company of George de Piro, who will also be schooled  at  Siebel, in the same
course as I.	
	I would like to ask that we be allowed to meet with Chicago area brewers,
of a homebrew nature, perhaps on the first Friday of the course, the 9th of
January. I know both he and I will be broke, but assume that there are
places in Chicago where one or two beers won't cost 30 bucks, and are good
brews. So any of you local hb'ers that can suggest a meeting point, e-mail
me. I will be bringing along my dinosaur 386 and posting to the HBD on the
Siebel experience, on a mostly daily basis, as I expect will George. I do
know we will be some poor SOB's, so ALL homebrew you wish evaluated, by
'nearly experienced' brewers, please bring along!

Sam Adams T-B..
	3 yo Sam Adams T-B is getting better! Initial taste sez "Anglican Church
Wine." Much better than 2-3 years ago! Getting drinkable!

Jethro Gump

	"I was told by my wife that if I brew one more batch of beer she would
leave me!
			I'm going to miss her."            :) 		Regan Pallandi           

Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net
Ames, Iowa.

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"







Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net
Ames, Iowa.

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:57:01 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: NA Brew

NA Brew.....
	Pro operations that produce NA beer rely on very expensive techniques
involving vacuum centrifuges, etc. Techniques for homebrewers are unable to
approach these, but like anything in our craft, are worthy of exploration.
	Recent posts indicate a low tolerance for other's opinions. Personal
experiences are valid to that individual, and seem to be offered as such.
Short of a 12 step Web digest, I don't think that there is any group of
individuals more aware of, or interested in learning about abuse, than the
subscribers to the HBD. 
	What I do find objectionable is derision of other's stated personal
experiences and opinions. I'll go to bat on this forum for anyone's right
to disagree, but terms like "BS," etc are not intended to state opposition
to a view. They are intended to invalidate views not in concurrence with
the writer's, and humiliate the originator.
	I find it a little 'over the top." 

Rob Moline
Brewer At Large
brewer at ames.net
Ames, Iowa.

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 08:44:23 -0500
From: Andrew Quinzani <quinzani at mdc.net>
Subject: RE: Newbie kegger

From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Newbie kegger

The beer was at about 42F and I was dispensing with ~11 lbs pressure. My

liquid-out line is four feet of 3/16" tubing with a picnic tap.
Theoretically,
the diameter and length of tubing _should_ have taken care of that
amount of
pressure. Unfortunately, the beer came firing out of the tap like a
rocket. Any
ideas why this might be? It knocks an awful lot of carbonation out. The
regulator could be way off, but I have reasons to doubt that. The new
regulator
should answer that one . . .

Matt. I have been kegging for a couple of years now and found there are
many things that can affect how the beer comes out of the tap. I see you
have already done the length of hose, temp, and pressure thing. Good,
however the other things that come into play is how much rolling the keg
on the floor with the pressure reg. set at 25-30 lbs? To much of this
can cause your problem as well as a beer that is still fermenting on you
in the keg. You will get lots of foam but very little Co2 in the beer
itself.

Also, what effect, if any, will the length and diameter of the gas-in
line have
on the pressure reaching the keg?

None.

I realize that I may be pondering the imponderable here, but I am
planning on
getting a 10# tank (the only place I can get them refilled is 30 minutes
away,
and I would prefer not to have to go all that much). If I a) force
carbonate
every batch after it has been cooled to about 40F, b) dispense at same
pressure
(about 10-12 lbs), and c) assuming there are no leaks in this system,
_approximately_ how many batches should I be able to carbonate and
dispense
with this tank?

You will loose count. Last year on my #5 I forced carbonated and
despenced six half barrels and three one quarter barrels........  YUM!


 -=Q=-


- --
"Q" Brew Brewery...Home of Hairy Chest Ale
- ------------------------------------------------------------
quinzani at mdc.net



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 00:29:51 +1000
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Irish Moss and Plastic Mashing Bucket

>1/ Forgot the Irish Moss -- We just put a batch of Pilsner Urquell-style
>beer (made with Wyeast 2278) into the primary tonight and it just occured to
>me that I forgot to put Irish Moss in during the boil. 

Irish Moss has to be added during the boil. Gelatine finings
will clear the beer up enough, if indeed it is needed.
Add 24-48 hours before bottling.

>2/ Plastic bucket with heating element -- are they any good for
>mashing/boiling? 

I have heard they can caramelise the wort slightly, making them
inappropriate for lighter coloured beers.
Perhaps if you stir the wort properly through out the boil..
I am looking to buy one of these boilers myself, so
if anyone has used one...

> ... was apparently designed for 220 volt outlets but has been
>converted to run off of a standard North American jack. Is this a potential
>problem.

Can't help you, I'm in a country with a 240V grid.
When I was in the U.S. however, I did see these heater/tun/lauters
on sale there as 220/240V units. How do you American brewers run 
these things?

- --
Brad McMahon
35:01'S 138:44'E
The HBD's southern most brewer?


Return to table of contents


Date: 01 Jan 1998 08:02:18 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS or RSMS?

>> Kyle Druey writes:

KD> RIMS, recirculating infusion mashing system - Seems to me to be named 
KD> incorrectly.  RIMS seems more like a recirculating step mashing system 
KD> RSMS, but this acronym is not quite as catchy and will never stick.  
KD> Comments?

Depends on how you use it.  There is NOTHING to say you have to do an
upward step infusion mash with a RIMS system.  Some people may think
that a protein rest is a lot of bull and wasted time and just do a
single step infusion with their RIMS.  In fact, it is my belief that
to have a RIMS, you do not need any heater at all.  Merely constant
recirculation during mashing.  With super insulation, the heat loss
could be small and within tolerance of the body you are seeking and
you would still reap several of the benefits of the RIMS concept.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:21:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Tidmarsh Major <tmajor at parallel.park.uga.edu>
Subject: High Altitude Homebrew

I nominate my friend John Hillhouse, who used to live and brew in
Leadville, Colorado, at somewhere around 10,500 feet above sea level.

Tidmarsh Major
tmajor at parallel.park.uga.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:38:14 -0600 (CST)
From: dfikar at flash.net
Subject: Re: LA homebrew & alcoholics


>LA homebrew & alcoholics (Paul Ward)
 .
 .
 .
>As for alcoholics being able to control their habit and limnit themselves to
>one drink a day, this is as possible as their being able to limit their
>drinking to no drinks a day.  Maybe harder, but still possible.
>
You imply elsewhere in your post that you have acquired some expertise in the
area of alcoholism from your experience as a jailer.  Why don't you ask some
of the alcoholic inmates if they ever fell off the wagon by deluding
themselves into thinking that they could have "just one" drink?  One of the
hallmarks of the disease as it develops is the attempt by the drinker to
control their alcohol intake.  Most, if not all, true alcoholics have tried
to control their drinking at some point in the evolution of their disease  
with predictably disastrous results.

I'd be willing to bet that there is a problem drinker out there in cyberspace
reading your's and Jack's posts and thinking "maybe, just maybe, I can start
drinking again in moderation".  If I can save just one alcoholic from trying
to rationalize another attempt at "moderate" drinking then this use of 
HBD bandwith is worth it.

>Can we get back to brewing issues now?
>
I'd like nothing better but, as a physician, I can't in good conscience let
your comments go unchallenged.  Nothing personal - just want to set the record
straight. :-)
 
- ---------------------------------------------
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar at flash.net)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:32:52 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Chlorine/bleach part 2

Brewsters:

Part 2. =


As far as organic load is concerned, in general, the higher the load,
the more organic stuff, the more active chlorine is needed to get
disinfection.  In the case of proteins as organic load,  chloramines =

are formed which have some residual disinfection power, especially
at higher temperatures.

More to the point for us is the use of hypochlorites in sanitizing food
handling and processing equipment.  In addition to a number of
other references, the article refers to the US Public Health Service
which recommends a sanitizing rinse of at least 50 ppm of available
chlorine at a minimum of 75F( 24C) for a time sufficient to provide a =

fast kill of organisms. (in  other references this is 10 seconds =

to 1 minute).  This reference is for a sanitizing rinse and assumes
a clean container.

In his HBD submission, Jim Liddil reminds us that a surface that
has an organic coating cannot be disinfected. As he so graphically
put it: " First WRT ("with regard to" - DRB) glass anyone who has
worked in a lab with proteins knows how tenaciously they bind to
glass......  I have to constantly remind our students that things have =

to be clean before autoclaving. The(y) are not the same.  After all I
can autoclave feces and then it is sterile......

All the discussion of sanitation has failed to address the issue
of making sure the surface is really clean before any sanitation is
to occur.  And with the high organic load of brewing you really have
to use some strong cleaners to get the grunge off.  We also have to
deal with things like calcium deposits of one sort or another that can
also trap dirt or provide hiding places for microorganisms.....
remember that a dirty surface can never be a sanitized one."

In support of this, I always rinse my carboys with a bleach solution =

and allow them to be stored wet.  Sometimes on doing this, the rinse
solution has a cloudy appearance which I assume is organic =

material lifted from the glass surface. Jim comments that he
ferments in plastic and I presume it is to prevent the association of =

organic material on the glass as well as the ease in handling
and physical cleaning.

Jim says:

>"  I favor using strong cleaning agents like 10% bleach (the =

>current CDC recommended conc. for blood disinfection),
 or any number of =

>other cleaners (PBW, autodishwasher detergent, alconox etc.)
  I also =

>usually acid rinse all the equipment. "

Jim says: =

> I am doing a little test of plastic and how well it can be disinfected =

>etc.  =


SUMMARY

I conclude from this and a bunch of other private communications:

1) Alkaline Bleach operates with a different mechanism =

( chlorate intermediate) from acid chlorine solutions ( hypochlorous
 acid intermediate), but may also incorporate HOCl. As a result of
 the high efficiency of HOCl, pH is a factor in disinfection rate. =

The higher pH is slower on a concentration basis, however,  pH of 5
 is the most efficaceous for chlorine disinfectants when stability,
 availabliity of HOCl is taken into consideration. =


2) At alkaline pH a higher temperature is better, providing an =

approximate doubling of the rate of disinfection with each 10C rise.

3) Disinfection can only be assured if the surface is clean.

4) Organic load is important in controlling the amount of
disinfectant used.  In the high organic loads we encounter in
brewing, more is better. Reaction products with proteins
( chloramines) can behave as disinfectants also, if less effectively.
Higher temperatures make these products more effective.

Hopefully, this has been a useful discussion and I would like to
thank all those who provided input.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:33:05 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Chlorine/bleach Part 1

Brewsters:

You may want to skip to the summary at the end of Part 2 if you
don't want the details.

In response to my appeal last week or two for some information
on mechanisms of chlorine disinfection methods, Jim Liddil was
kind enough to fax me a chapter on this subject called "Chlorine and
Chlorine Compounds". Jim promised you I would write more on the
subject and this is in keeping with his promise. I think his fine
correspondence and sharing of his personal experiences and
the excellent set of chemical information from =

AJ  DeLange just about settled the issue in my mind.  I will
summarize here what I think is a reasonable interpretation of all =

this information and  some new data from the article Jim provided
I hope I don't leave anything out or misinterpret it.
If I do,  well then you know what you can do -
expose my mistakes right here. {8^)

As you may know, I was curious about the suggested mechanisms
of dis-infection with bleach, the effect of temperature on disinfection
rate and the effect of bleach concentration on disinfection rate, as
what I have been doing for years is high concentrations of bleach =

at high temperatures.  This is opposite to a lot of hobby books I =

have read which suggest a teaspoon or so of bleach in a gallon of
water used cold for many minutes or hours or days.

The proposed mechanism of hypochlorous as the active
intermediate in disinfection didn't seem to me to apply to alkaline
solution. The use of low temperatures to minimize loss and
maximize the HOCl concentratinon didn't either, so using
guidelines for acidic chlorine didn't seem to necessarily apply
to bleach , which we use. These guidelines apply rather to acidic =

solution made up by dissolving chlorine in water upon which the
chlorine reacts with the water ( think of it as each chlorine atom
getting a piece of the water molecule if you wish) producing
HCl and HOCl.   Dissolving chlorine in sodium hydroxide or
adding NaOH to chlorine water produces the same result -
sodium hypochlorite plus residual hydroxide which we call
household bleach. Reacting chlorine with calcium hydroxide
produces bleaching powder used in disinfection as well as
industrial bleaching.  =


Part of the problem I have found is the penchant for authors to
use the word "chlorine" as a pseudonym for chlorine/water,
other "active" chlorine compounds and hypochlorite solutions.
This lumping of the various forms of active chlorine under one
umbrella disguises the mechanisms and distinctions of the
various forms.  While it makes sense from a chlorine producers =

and maybe a chemist's point of view, from a mechanism and user
point of view it leaves some deficiencies, since alkaline and =

acidic chlorine solutions have different properties.

Brien Kirby reminded me in a private correspondence that there
is an equilibrium in acidic media which explains why bleach is =

kept alkaline to ensure its long-term stability.  In the acidic state,
HOCl is in equilibrium with molecular chlorine dissolved in the
water. The molecular chlorine in the water is in equilibrium with
any chlorine in the gas above the water.  If no chlorine is in the gas
phase, the chlorine/water mixture eventually degasses and becomes
inactive even without oxidizing anything.  Anyone who has a
chlorinated water supply knows this every time s/he takes a drink.

In the alkaline state, the concentration of HOCl, is very low as
my previous calculations showed and the above mechanism is
inoperative, so the chlorine stays dissolved in the alkaline media
of bleach in the hypochlorite form. This stabiity is a sort of inverse =

proof that not much HOCl is in bleach. The lack of HOCl  implies =

that temperature will not play the same role in loss of chlorine or
in the dissociation of HOCl which has been the major reason, =

apparently, for the rule that chlorine/water ( and implied incorrectly
about bleach) should be used cold. AJ DeLange also points out =

that hypochlorous acid disproportionates at higher temperatures to
chloride and molecular oxygen, further implying that acidic chlorine
solutions should be kept cold. Such a mechanism doesn't apply
to hypochlorite.

There is another factor which never seems to be discussed and
 that is that even with chlorine/water the higher temperature should
speed up any reaction, at a constant chlorine content.  While limits
on the temperature apparently exist for acid media, no such
limit exists for alkaline media containing chlorine.  This fact gives
us the opportunity to take advantage of the faster  rate of disinfection
at a higher temperature when using bleach.

Along this same line, I thought the new ( to me)  information by Aj
on the mechanism of hypochlorite reaction which  implicated an =

unstable chlorate intermediate which  reacted better at higher
temperatures was important to our understanding on how to use
bleach.  This does not rule out multiple pathways, such as a
hypochlorous acid intermediate, but as I pointed out previously,
the concentration is so low at the high pH of bleach that other
mechanisms must (also) be working. In alkaline media =

hypochlorite disproportionates into chloride and chlorate which
is a strong oxidant/disinfectant particularly at high temperature. =

This mechanism may explain how bleach works independently
of the hypochlorous acid mechanism and suggests to me that =

high temperature bleach is better than colder. The disproportion
mechanism implies to me that higher concentrations of hypochorite
will produce more chlorate, and may even be proportional to the
cube of the concentration at a constant pH .

=46rom the article JimL sent, p 136 ".....using 50ppm available =

chlorine hypochlorite solution at pH 8.35 obtained a complete
kill ( of Mycobacterium Tuberculosis) in =


pH 8.35, 50 ppm =

Temp     Time
50C         150 sec
55C            60 sec
60C            30 sec

pH 9, 200 ppm

Temp        Time
50C              60 sec
55C              30 sec


A temperature effect on bactericidal activity of 25 ppm
Ca(OCl)2 solution at a
constant pH of 10 ,time to effect a kill follows:

Temp     Min
20           121
30             65
35             38.7
50             9.3      =


These authors observed a 60 to 65% reduction in killing time
with a 10 C rise in temperature.[ This is essentially a doubling =

of the rate with a 10C rise as in other normal chemical reactions
 -DRB].

After providing several more examples, the authors close with this
summary of the work in alkaline hypochlorite solutions:

 "From all this work, it is evident that an increase in
temperature produces an increase in bactericidal activity."

See Part 2

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 13:41:51 -0500
From: John Rezabek <rezabeks at alpha.wcoil.com>
Subject: Re: Mash Efficiency

Steve Alexander, writing about mash efficiency:

"My opinion is that the published tables are quite erratic and
inconsistent.  I'd use my figures, figures derived from DBCG%&MC%, or
Noonan's figures from New BLB. Noonan uses a slightly different, but
justifiable calculation.  Dave Miller's numbers and the  Zymurgy tables
hard to justify and seem erratic."

I had this concern the other day . . . so why use the coarse grind
number? Wouldn't the fine grind number be a better representation of the
"best" one can do with small batches at home?

Using the fine grind numbers and percent extract quoted by my supplier,
I get numbers that are reasonably consistent with published data. Using
these numbers, my efficiencies are in the mid to high 80's for step /
infusion mashes, and low 90's for decoctions. Using the numbers derived
from the equation you propose, my efficiencies get rather high for my
relatively rudimentary setup (no RIMS or anything). Geez not a single
base malt over 1035 . . . can it really be so?

I like your proposal (from HBD #2594) though. Can we assume you'll
continue to post numbers here?

Looks like you need some data for unmalted adjuncts. I'll contact my
supplier to see if he can help.

Best Regards,
- -- 
John Rezabek
rezabeks at alpha.wcoil.com
http://alpha.wcoil.com/~rezabeks/hawg_creek.html

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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:20:15 -0400
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (AJ)
Subject: Calcium Phosphate

John Rezabek wrote in #2598

>The other day, after boiling the begeezus out of about 14 quarts of mash
>water (adjusted from 9.7 pH (tap) to about 7 with Phos acid)and letting
>it sit overnight, I had a bunch of precipitate in the bottom of the pot.

When phosphate is added to water containing calcium in even modest amounts
calcium phosphate precipitates. This is probably what was found at the
botom of the pot. At pH 7 water containing phosphate at 0.1 millimole per
liter will be saturated with respect to calcium phosphate at a calcium
level of a couple of mg/L. This is one of the mechanisms by which pH is
reduced when malt is mashed in with water containig calcium.

The water in question was said to have carbonates at 60 ppm and pH 9.7.
This amounts to alkalinity of only about 80 which isn't too bad and
probably doesn't require reduction except for very pale beers. If
alkalinity reduction is contemplated lactic is probably a better choice
than phosphoric because of the phosphate precipitation discussed above.
Removal of  calcium with the phosphate leaves little of it to react with
grist phosphates and mash pH may be higher than desired.

Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:27:20 EST
From: Ale conner <Aleconner at aol.com>
Subject: homebrew evaluations

Hey gang- a couple of questions for you:

1). I'm curious to know how many of you participate (compete) in local,
regional or national AHA/BJCP homebrew competitions?

2). Are you satisfied with the comments and scores your beers recieve?

3).  Do you think there is a need for an alternative homebrew evaluation
program in the U.S.?

Please e-mail me with your responses at:  Aleconner at aol.com
Thanks in advance for your input.

Cheers!

Marty Nachel

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Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 18:41:41 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Korma, courmi, coirm - Historic Celtic drink.

Has anyone ever stumbled across information regarding an ancient beer made
by the Celtics called "korma, courmi or coirm"?

I just stumbled across a reference to it (cited below) in "Guinness
Drinking Companion" by Dunkling.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The beer of the ancient Celts is various referred to as korma, courmi or
coirm. The second-century Greek physician and writer on medicine,
Dioscorides, said that 'Coirm, being drunk by the Irish instead of wine,
produces headaches, is a compound of bad juices, and does harm to the
muscles.'

>From time to time, in the Irish epic tale Tain Bo Cuailnge, King Conchubar
is said to spend a third of each day feasting, a third watching young
warriors wrestle, a third drinking coirm until he falls asleep."
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds interesting, don't it?

TIA,
Dan Cole

P.S: I have subscribed to the historical brewing digest, but can't find
directions on how to submit to the digest. Anyone out there know the
address to submit?


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Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 09:06:44 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: RIMS, Soma, Dr Dogma, Corn and the Bottom line

From: Kyle Druey <kdldmd at lightspeed.net>
Subject: MM Ramblings / RIMS or RSMS? / Flexible Suction Piping

"RIMS Complicated?  This coming from a guy who designed and markets an
adjustable roller malt mill?  It certainly is less expensive than the MM!
I can tell you have never tried RIMS.  I guess you just like single
infusion mashes, stirring until your arm falls off, and not having
precise temperature control during mashing. 

What does the price of a MM have to do with anything?  I suspect you
will find lots of folks who have paid that much just for a pump
for rims.

Fact of the matter is, there is a far simpler way to do what RIMS
does, I just haven't gotten around to marketing it.  It's called
the MIXMASHER(R).  Unfortunately, as it has an electrical plug on
it, I will never market it because I do not want to deal with
greedy lawyers and the government.

One of these days I will post instructions on making it and rims
will go to the museum like the false bottom.

" Is this same line of thinking employed into the design of the MM?

You bet!  Keep it simple and therefore reliable.  That's how we can
guarantee it for life.

"The point is that the MM and VM are constructed with similar tolerances,
making the quality of the two products also similar.

How on earth do you know that?  I stated ours as .005" i.e +/- .0025.
Where do you see theirs posted?

""The problem I pointed out was that not even god knows what the spacing
is because he did not tell us how deal with the peaks and valleys when

"You need to convince the solid copper wire I use that it can't obtain a
gap measurement.  Good Luck!

It is not my habit to converse with wires but it does not take a rocket
scientist to realize that you have a problem reliably measuring the 
gap between the hills and valleys with a round wire.  A flat feeler
gage, (several peak rows wide) will at least give a consistant
value.

"No, I hit the point dead center bullseye.  If you did not want the mess
of dealing directly with us homebrewers you could sell us the damn thing
for $75, and you would still be happy with the profit....

It has nothing to do with dealing with homebrewers.  I do it all the
time, email, letters, phonecalls, responding to people like you.  It's
all part of being in business.  Just so happens that they hang up
the phone and buy from a dealer more often than not because they like
the warm fuzzy feeling. 

"You could be like the Yeast Culture Kit Company.....

I could be like General Motors too but I choose to be like JSP.

" selling off your website at reasonable prices, 

You sound like Al Gore.  We are nearing the 10,000 units shipped
mark and I guarantee you, if we relied on web sales, we would be
lucky to be at 500.

"offering excellent products, and if requested providing personal and 
professional advice to your customers.

Are you suggesting that I do not do that?

"Ahh Hah!  So all you want to do on the HBD is stir up controversy and
arguments just for the sake of your personal entertainment?  Let's hope
not.

Actually it's for the entertainment of all, except perhaps those who
need to turn up the humor gain.  You know like... RELAX old boy!

""Can we shut it off after the parade or do we have to watch the game 
too?

"I can tell you don't care for football. 

BRAVO! Nice to see that at least one point got through.

The Romans had "bread and circuses" to keep the masses under control;
the Brave New World had "Soma";  we have Bud and football.

 ............

From: dfikar at flash.net
Subject: Re: Take it off.  PLEASE

"""Take this note off your page. PLEASE!!!

""This one really bugs me because by saying that, you make it
obvious that you did not read it.

"This may apply to you.....

Thank you.  All I ever claimed was my own experience.  I do not
give free medical advice.

" but I can say with assurance, as an M.D., that many
alcoholics simply can't "limit" their intake of alcohol.

That is a contradiction in terms.  They CAN do anything they
wish.  They simply choose to drink more.

" In fact I heard one the other day say that if he has one drink he'll 
have 20 - i.e. he has no control once he starts drinking.

I have the same problem with cookies.  

" The etiology of the disease is probably multifactorial.
It is not a "lazy brain" problem as you state.

I respectfully disagree with you but I suspect this is not the
place to carry this discussion much further.
 
"Please be very careful when trying to apply your own anecdotal 
experience to against accepted medical knowledge.

That's a real can of worms you opened up there.  Fortunately, I
have no such blind belief in "accepted medical knowledge"
as you have.  Need I remind you of leeches and blood letting?

 ...........

From: "Wills, Frederick J (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
Subject: Roller Mill Gap Settings

"Is this fact or momily?  I have heard this oft repeated, but fail to see
why smaller particles of husk would cause tannic extraction that would
not occur anyway.

I have always had a real problem with this one.  As the husks are only
a few cells thick, it is hard to see why more of anything would be
extracted if cut into smaller pieces.

On the other hand a Corona type grinder and single roller mills are
capable of (and do) grind some of it to dust.  This dust is useless as 
filter media and if it passes through the filter, it will end up in the 
beer.  Obviously, it (could) effect the taste of the beer if this 
happens.

I humbly submit that all two roller mills are alike in this respect.
There is nothing you can do to the spacing that will create this
problem.  The valid reasons for adjusting the spacing lie elsewhere.

 ............

From: Katy or Delano DuGarm <dugarm at mnsinc.com>
Subject: Re: Corn and Corn Oil

"Jean De Clerk writes (in A Textbook of Brewing, 1:51) that whole cracked
corn is never used as an adjunct, but is degermed first.  He gives two
reasons for this: 1) the corn oil "is positively harmful to the quality
of the beer," and 2) corn oil is worth extracting and selling.

You don't supposed he was too simple minded to see the connection
between the two, do you?  It reminds me of the dairy industry
touting the virtures of low fat milk so they can sell the cream
for other purposes.

Also, I seriously doubt that De Clerk is writing about the American
mega brewers.

If my surmises are untrue, I reserve the right to disagree
with him.  My half corn beer is some of the best tasting beer
I make.

"Lawrence Bradee ("Adjuncts" in The Practical Brewer, Madison, 1978, p.
45) writes that the corn is degermed when it is milled into grits, again
to recover the valuable corn oil......

Sounds like an echo in here.

js

- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
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---