---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Guiness Bitter ("Gregg Soh")
  temp control programming ("Chris A. Smith")
  Counter pressure bottler answer (Bill Giffin)
  Orlando Brewpubs? ("Schultz, Steven W.")
  Re: Natural gas cookers (Paul Shick)
  New Orleans / Washington, DC ("Jeffrey M. Kenton")
  Propane (Tom Clark)
  mashtime in the mashtun ("Spies, James")
  Medicinal flavors / Pump sanitation / my haze (George_De_Piro)
  Re: Use of LP Indoors (Steve Scott)
  Re: Plastic taste (Jeff Renner)
  Sparging, ("David R. Burley")
  Flushin' out that mash (Samuel Mize)
  No subject given ("Kirk Harralson")
  Beer Engine, Refrigerators (rbarnes)
  Brown Ale Recipe question for a friend (Rich Hampo)
  Natural Gas Burners ("Brian Rezac")
  Keg Lube alternative/modern malts (Tim Martin)
  peculiar yeast starter behavior (Kevin TenBrink)
  Butt jelly instead of keg lube... ("Pat Babcock")
  Re: Computerized Fridge Controller (Dave Thayer)
  mashout & extraction efficiency (Domenick Venezia)
  false bottoms ("Emily Neufeld")
  Growing Southern (US) Hops (GordonRick)
  Getting rid of chlorine (GordonRick)




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:09:49 PST
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: Guiness Bitter

I came across the curious GUINESS BITTER in a green can today. There 
were crates and crates of 'em in the shop but weren't for sale as 
yet(they just came in). Never seen it before, anyone heard of it? (If I 
recall, Dave Burley has seen it, I think).

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 16:17:29 +1300
From: "Chris A. Smith" <casmith at metro.telecom.samsung.co.kr>
Subject: temp control programming

Generally I'm a lurker on this list, but I 
thought I harp in here with a suggestion.

Thumbing through the Dallas Semiconductor
databook the other day, I noticed some temp
control chips they build that might be of interest 
in homebrew applications.  In particular, I remember 
a thermostatic control chip (DS1621 ?) that allows you to 
specify a temp setpoint, a hysteresis value, and
to read back temp over a serial link.  This serial 
interface has a very simple protocol which was
obviously created so that you could simply connect
the sucker directly to a PC serial port and generate
the proper sequence of binary values in software.

Also, they had some very curious temp sensors (DS1820)
that could be connected daisy-chain style by a 
single wire serial interface.  The weird thing about these
sensors is they required no power supply - somehow
Dallas figured out a way to use the serial link 
voltage to run the chip.

I don't know how much these
chips cost, but I'd be suprised if they were 
very pricey since Dallas makes a lot of utility-type
chips for the PC industry, where cost is a big issue.

Dallas Site:  http://www.dalsemi.com

- -- Insert standard 'not-associated-with' disclaimer here --

Good Luck.
- -- 


Chris A. Smith
Document Center
Infrastructure Networks Division
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Seoul, Korea

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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 07:36:22 -0500
From: Bill Giffin <billg at ctel.net>
Subject: Counter pressure bottler answer

Top of the morning to yea all,


Ken Hawkins had a question,
>
>Now Bill had said to adjust the Foxx bottler to appear as such:
>         (plug)------(a
>	       |
>	  b)--|-- (c
>	       |
>	      \ /
>	       |
>     (insert bottle hear)
>
>Shout when I make a wrong turn. I do not see what exactly makes this a
>superior set up for c-p filling, then again fluids were never my strong
>point in physics classes of old. Could someone please expound on this?
>Also if we're going through the motions of converting wouldn't putting
>an elbow on top keep from creating a dead spot which could (insert
>possible bad outcome here), or at minimal inhibit the flow of sweet
>liquid gold? The latter question could possibly be the ranting of an
>anal retentive rookie to the c-p filling circle and if it doesn't matter
>slap me now.


The change in the filler is because there is CO2 always filling the bottle
and the bottle is always under CO2 pressure.  The bottler is far more
controllable then the original Foxx and will allow you to fill more bottles
faster with far less foam.  When the bottle is full you purge the headspace
with CO2 helping to prevent oxidation.  Hope this is enough reason.

Bill



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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:15:46 -0500
From: "Schultz, Steven W." <swschult at CBDCOM-EMH1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Orlando Brewpubs?

I'm taking a trip to Orlando, FL next week and would appreciate any
private posts, informing me of the better brewpubs in town.  Thanks in
advance.

Steve Schultz
Abingdon, MD

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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:56:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Re: Natural gas cookers



Hello all,

	Tom Riddle asks about a source for natural gas burners for
his new basement brewery.  You can still get NG versions of the King
Kooker at the Grape and Granary in Akron, Ohio (www.grapeandgranary.com.) 
I'm currently using three of these with converted kegs.  The lower NG 
pressure seems to result in lower output than the propane versions.  It
takes about 35 minutes to heat 10 gallons from 50F to 165F (still a lot
quicker than my stove was for 5 gallons.)  I've had great service from the
G and G people in person, so I assume that their mail order should be OK.
The cost was roughly $45 per burner last summer.
                                    
			Paul Shick



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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:00:29 -0600
From: "Jeffrey M. Kenton" <jkenton at iastate.edu>
Subject: New Orleans / Washington, DC

Hello All.

A very brief message: I will be in New Orleans Feb 25-28 for a national
conference, ditto Washington, DC March 11-14. If you know of some cool
places to go (beer-related) in The Big Easy, or the Nation's Capitol, send
me private email.

Thanks

Jeff Kenton

- -------------------

Jeff Kenton		brewer at iastate.edu
Ames, Iowa		jkenton at iastate.edu	(515) 294 9997



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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 10:13:36 -0500
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: Propane

For those of you wanting to use propane, the outfit below has an 
interesting looking "stove" called the BIG 60.

No affiliation...

http://wwbcity.com/hgas2.htm

Tom Clark


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:36:31 -0500
From: "Spies, James" <Jams at mlis.state.md.us>
Subject: mashtime in the mashtun

All -

SMurman (sorry), in HBD #2629 stated that   >>>While diffusivity is
secondary during the sparge, during the mash it is not.  While the
mash is sitting parked at it's sacc. temperature, the sugar that's
produced will try to evenly distribute in the water.  The problem is
that we usually stop mashing after 60 min. or so, and as I said above
diffusion is slow, so there will always be sugar trapped within the
grains . . . <<<

That got me thinking.  Perhaps this question as already been answered,
but repetition is the spice of life, eh? . . . .   I mash in a 10 gallon
Gott, and usually limit the mash to a single sacc rest at ~156dF.  I
have always had complete conversion (per iodine test) in 60 min.
However, has anyone done any studies comparing how much, if any,
increase in efficiency occurs if we are to simply let the whole shebang
sit for another 30 - 45 minutes?  Would the slow diffusion of sugars
*out* of the middle of the grains and *into* the spaces between them
help increase efficiency more than simply doing a painfully slow sparge
after 60 min?  Would doing said painful sparge after 90 minutes be even
better?  105 min?   Let the collective wisdom flow . . .

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD

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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:10:02 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Medicinal flavors / Pump sanitation / my haze

     Hi all,
     
     Dave Burley responds to a post about medicinal aroma/flavor in beer.  
     He suggests that this can be from oxidation.
     
     In my experience oxidation is usually expressed as a papery/cardboard 
     aroma/flavor.  It can also come in the form of sherry and nutty tones 
     (which, by the way, many people do not find unpleasant.  In my early 
     days of beer-geekness I thought that many beers were supposed to taste 
     that way!  Almost all of the imports were BADLY oxidized.)
     
     A more likely explanation of medicinal notes in beer is phenolic 
     compounds.  These are often produced by wild yeast.  If the final 
     gravity of the beer is lower than you expected, then it is almost 
     definitely a wild yeast problem.
     
     Chlorine can react with phenols in the beer to form chlorophenols, but 
     these are usually perceived as a strong swimming pool odor, not 
     medicine.
     -------------------------------
     Dean asks if running hot (160F/71C) wort through his pump for 40 
     minutes during the sparge will adequately sanitize it so that he can 
     move cold wort through it later.
     
     I would NOT try this.  The effluent from the lauter tun is often much 
     cooler than the sparge water going in the top.  I would not trust it 
     to sanitize the pump.  The bacterial load of grain is pretty high, 
     too, which is another reason I wouldn't use lauter tun runoff for 
     sanitizing purposes.
     
     I would run nearly boiling water through the pump and hoses 
     immediately after the sparge is complete.  If you can cap everything 
     off, then you'll probably be OK until it is time to run the cast out 
     wort through the system.  You could always run more hot water through 
     it just before running the cool wort, too.
     
     I avoid moving cool wort through my pump.  Gravity is much simpler, 
     and won't infect my beer!  Pumps can get pretty gunky.
     -------------------------------
     Dave Burley suggests that my CAP haze may be from unconverted starch 
     from inadequate cooking of the corn meal.
     
     While I foolishly did not examine the beer with a microscope to 
     determine the cause of the haze prior to fining, I feel confident that 
     it is not starch.  The iodine test was negative at the end of the 
     mash, and cereal cooking is not new to me.
     
     From experience, I know that the amount of gelatin I used should have 
     cleared a yeast haze.  Since it didn't in this case, I'm thinking that 
     it may have been a protein haze.  The Polyclar definitely did not seem 
     to help any, though.  Hmmm...  By the way, Classic American Pilsners 
     tend to be pretty darn hoppy, Dave.
     
     This reminds me of an interesting story about flaked corn:  One of my 
     Siebel classmates was from a large Indian brewery.  He complained that 
     they could not get clear runoff when using flaked maize in the mash.  
     I postulated that his flaked maize may not have been adequately 
     gelatinized by the manufacturer.  This supposition was then confirmed 
     by one of the instructors:  Siebel had recently been analyzing flaked 
     maize from several Indian producers, and found them all to be 
     inadequately gelatinized!
     
     The gentleman from India then noted that when they cooked the flaked 
     maize in a cereal cooker, they got clear runoff, but a very slow 
     sparge.
     
     The slow sparge confounded everyone in the room, and the poor guy had 
     to go back to India without a complete answer.  Any ideas from the HBD 
     crowd?
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 11:14:04 -0500
From: sscott at lightlink.com (Steve Scott)
Subject: Re: Use of LP Indoors

>On various brew-related websites I have noticed the apparent use of=20
>LP gas burners on indoor setups.  I understand the potential concerns=20
>of leaking LP gathering in low areas, however, what are the=20
>ramifications of *burning* LP indoors.  Specifically, what are the=20
>byproducts of burning LP?  Is there potential for carbon-monoxide=20
>buildup without adequate ventilation?

If we assume adequate combustion air the byproducts are water vapor, CO2
and CO.  Yes, there is a potential for hazardous levels of CO
production.  BTW, the same concerns are present with methane (NG).

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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:08:02 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Plastic taste

David R. Burley writes (in his open verse style ;-)  )

>Tim Burkhardt has a plastic taste in his bottled beer =
>
>that wasn't there before bottling. This taste is often =
>
>associated with phenols and such.  Possibly what =
>
>you taste is due to the beer oxidation during bottling.

I replied to Tim privately, but suggested wild yeast or bacteria as the
likely source or this phenolic taste.  That has been my experience as well
as what I've read, here and elsewhere.  I've never heard of oxidation as
the source for this.  Oxidation flavors are more typically cardboard,
sherry, etc, I thought.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:42:49 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sparging,

Brewsters:

I do not know what to do about the "=3D" signs and spacing =

of my copy.  I keep shortening the lines, etc. to no avail.  =

My apologies.  I am sorry for the inconvenience.
- --------------------------------------------
Jim Bentson makes a  fine summary of the excellent =

comments so far on the design of the sparging bed.
And says:

>The very fact
>that we must drain the sparge and replace it with fresh =

water makes me think
>that there is some solubilty limiting factor at play. =

Again I stress that
>this is postulation, as I don't know the actual =

solubility limits. Comments
>anyone?

Actually sugar is pretty soluble as you may know from =

other experiences in life like candy making as well =

as brewing.  It certainly is much more soluble than a =

few percent  which is contained in the wort.  Those =

candy makers and pancake eaters among us know =

that what also happens  when something, as =

hydrogen bonding as sugar, dissolves in water =

is that the viscosity rises rapidly with concentration. =


It is this viscosity functionality and not solubility =

which is the controlling factor in efficient sparging.

Viscosity is also dependent on the temperature of the =

wort and other dissolved entities such as gums and =

proteins.

Viscosity is a kinetic phenomenon and not a =

thermodynamic function like solubility, so rate makes =

a difference.

Anything you can do to reduce the viscosity of the =

wort will make for a more efficient sparge.  =


What can you do? =


1) Lower wort SG  and thereby the viscosity for a =

given amount of sugar- in other words mashing out to =

the maximum volume possible with hot water.
You should do this in favor of adding more sparge water
for the same total volume since viscosity is an =

exponential function with concentration. This may =

not be an option if you are already at full mash volume =

unless you boil more off.

2) HIgher temperature ( a mash out at 167F, =

for example, to heat up the grain bed)

3) Glucan and protein rests, especially with =

things like wheat and rye =


4) Slow sparge with the sparge liquor to allow the wort =

contained in the capillaries of the grain to diffuse into =

the liquor. As has been pointed out here 60 to 90 =

minutes is about right for homebrewing.

5) Smaller cross-section of the grist particle along one =

dimension.  i.e. a finer grind or maybe a flake shape =

to the particle, such as you get in roller milling.  This
means the wort in the grain capillaries doesn't have =

so far to diffuse.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:12:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Flushin' out that mash

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> HOMEBREW Digest #2629    Thu 05 February 1998

> From: smurman at best.com
> Subject: mashout

> Second, I think that molecular diffusion plays a secondary role in the
> removal of the sugar from the grains.
 ...
> So, if you agree that a mashout step cannot increase the efficiency by
> either affecting the amylase activity or by decreasing the viscosity

Me not know all them big words.

However, I do know that more sugar dissolves in hotter water, and faster.

>I think the mashout step can affect the efficiency simply by
> the mechanical action of mixing to achieve the next temperature.

Makes sense too.  OTOH, Schmidling and the RIMS (I saw them on tour) are
mechanically mixing throughout the mash in either case, so this would not
explain any difference THEY are seeing.

Has anyone who mixes throughout the mash compared efficiencies both with
and without mashout?

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/
Hillary's book about Bill's private life: "It Takes a Village"

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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 14:18:25 -0500
From: "Kirk Harralson"<nie1kwh at ismd.ups.com>
Subject: No subject given


 Every source on fining that I've seen (beer or wine) recommends adding the 
 fining agent(s) at the end of fermentation.  The instructions in the last 
 wine kit I made said to add the finings (bentonite) at the start.  I found an 
 explanation for this in the winemaking faq:
 
 > G15. Why am I adding the bentonite at the beginning?  How much do I put 
 >     in?  Where do I get it?
 >
 > {As I understand it, bentonite is a clearing agent.  However, in the 
 > instructions for my kit it says to add the bentonite at the same time 
 > as the yeast.  Why?
 >
 > It helps to get rid of a lot of stuff (including millions of dead yeast 
 > cells) during the primary fermentation by having it all fall out before 
 > clearing ever starts.  Doing so optimizes the actual clearing process
 > by taking care of a lot of it before you even try.  It also helps avoid 
 > foul smells from decomposing yeast -- a potential problem when your
 > wine is in the carboy for several weeks or even months -- when you
 > transfer the wine into the secondary by having them all fall out to the 
 > bottom in the primary, therefore avoiding their transfer.
 >
 > In about 5 gallons, about 25 to 50 grams of bentonite is used.
 > Bentonite should be easily available from your brewing supply shop.
 
 Does this sound like a reasonable thing to do?  Would this reasoning apply to 
 beer in the same manner?  What are the possible negative side effects of 
 adding some bentonite (and/or other finings) in the last few minutes of the 
 boil?
 
 Kirk Harralson
 Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 11:22:05 -0800
From: rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: Beer Engine, Refrigerators


     Thanks to Sam Mize for answering my question about using a brass 
     Fynspray pump to make the "$50 beer engine" featured in BYO. Can't use 
     brass because of the lubricant in the pump, but the plastic pump works 
     great. 
     
     To add to the refrigerator thread: I have an old (25-30 years, judging 
     by the "Harvest Gold" color) refrigerator, approx. 16 cf, with a 
     single door (freezer and refrig. in same compartment). I've been using 
     this to lager, but I noticed that by turning the control to a point 
     between defrost and "1" (the warmest setting), I can maintain a temp 
     of 50 degrees. Will this setting hurt the unit? If it won't, I could 
     ferment lagers without buying an external controller.
     
     Thanks- Randy in San Diego



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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:51:56 -0500
From: rhampo at ford.com (Rich Hampo)
Subject: Brown Ale Recipe question for a friend

Howdy to the Collective!

A friend that I forward the HBD to is having difficulty posting
so I am posting it for him. His email is drussel3 at ford.com.

******************************************************************

I have recently progressed to extract/grain brewing and would like to have a
try at formulating my own recipe.  I would like to create an English Brown Ale.
I have a few questions:

1. What are traditional varities of hops for Northern/Southern styles? (bitter,
flavor, etc.)
2. Many recipes I have downloaded call for brown sugar.  Is this to style to
use
brown sugar?   (light or dark)
3. Any other suggestions...

Thanks for the hbd.  I am now hooked and I am having a hard time justifying
this with my wife.

Private e-mail okay.

- --
David Russell   drussel3 at ford.com    Plymouth, MI


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:10:00 -0700
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Natural Gas Burners

Tom Riddle <ftr at oracom.com> wrote:
> Subject: Natural Gas Burners
> 
> After a long, painful, absence from brewing due to changing jobs,
> moving, getting married, etc I am ITCHING
> to brew again.  I used to brew in my garage with a propane Cajun Cooker
> jet engine style burner, but now I must
> move my brewing operation indoors to the basement, and hence to natural
> gas.  Does anyone know of a vendor
> for a NG burner appropriate for brewing in a 1/2 bbl keg ?  Does anyone
> have experience / recommendations
>to give ?

Tom,

In the spring issue of Zymurgy, we are featuring "The Burner Road Test". 
The article compares different propane burners specifically for homebrewing
usage.  It doesn't cover natural gas.  However, in doing a little of the
background research for the article, I was educated a little on converting
propane burners to natural gas.

You need to get a "Low Pressure" burner.  These are the burners that
operate with low pressure regulators.  (Your jet burner is most likely high
pressure.)  To convert these burners to natural gas, you need to replace
the orifice (the tiny hole in the end of the gas line).  A few of the
burner manufacturers will actually specify which burners are convertable to
natural gas.  I believe that they even provide the replacement orifice.  

There are probably more manufacturers that do this, but the two that I know
of is:

Metal Fusion, Inc. (King Kooker)
712 St. George Ave.
Jefferson, LA  70121
(504) 736-0201

Empire Comfort Systems, Inc. (Suberb)
918 Freeburg Ave.
Belleville, Il  62222
(800) 851-3153

Good Luck & Good Beer!  

Also, congratulations on your marriage and your new job.

 -  Brian

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association  (303) 447-0816  x 121   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                               (303) 447-2825   (fax)
Boulder, CO  80302                           brian at aob.org
U.S.A.                                             http://beertown.org


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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 16:47:16 -0500
From: Tim Martin <TimMartin at southwest.cc.nc.us>
Subject: Keg Lube alternative/modern malts

Hey Neighbors,

A mail order brew shop recommended I use Vaseline as a substitute for
Keg lube. I personally never tried this, since I believe it's a petroleum
based product, any brave souls care to try it and report back.
#####################

I certainly have enjoyed the discussion on "modern malts" please keep it
up. I posed a question several months ago concerning my confusion to
which malt is modern and I must confess I am still confused. 

I have tried bitting the grain and I do see the difference now. I just did
two batches with Klages, which are supposed to be modern fully
modified malts (depending on which source I consult) and the Klages will
definitely chip a tooth. To compare I chewed some Belgian caravienne
and carapils and there is a remarkable difference in crunch ability. I did
get considerable chill haze from the Klages with a single infusion at
156df.

While I like this simple method of determining modification I still don't
understand why there is not list stating these malts need a rest and
these malts are fully modified and they do not and etc. But correct me if
I'm wrong but I'm sensing if I use Marris Otter this time and I don't use a
rest but order more at a latter date it may be different and will require a
rest. Is this why there is so much confusion over this topic and why they
are not just spelled out on a list.

You lose me on measuring the acrospire not sure I would recognize one
if I held it in my finger any way. I ferment in stainless steel so I can't
visually check and compare break levels and quite frankly a malt analysis
sheet, if you can find one is difficult to interpret. Yes, chill haze is my
main reason I want to chose the correct malt. I have polyclar and gelatin
standing by to use on a batch that I kegged this weekend but I have
never used the two and I'm resisting the urge to use them but the chill
haze is really bugging me. 

To Kyle Druey please keep up the research and the pursuit of truth and I
agree with the articulate way you present the problem. From one grunt in
the trench who's only pursuit is good clear beer in the simplest way
(single infusion) I hope that one day soon we can solve this confusion
over "under, moderate, highly, modern malts".

Tim Martin
Cullowhee, NC (next to The Great Smoky Mountain National Park)

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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 17:22:36 -0700
From: Kevin TenBrink <tenbrink at jps.net>
Subject: peculiar yeast starter behavior

I recently started doing yeast starters for some of my beers and have
noticed some peculiar things happening and would like to know if anyone
else has experienced the same things or has an explanation as to what is
going on.
 I make a starter and add the yeast.  The next morning there does not
appear to be any activity, ie fermentation, in the gallon jug that I am
using, that is, until I give it a shake or a swirl.  Then a huge out
gassing of CO2 occurs and it returns to its apparently docile state.  I
wait a few minutes and give it another shake and yet another large burst
of CO2 is emitted from the wort/starter.  This has happened on every
occasion I have made a yeast starter, even though I have used different
yeast, different amounts of starter wort, and different temps to store
these starters.  Initially I thought it was the tile floor in my beer
closet sucking the heat out of the wort, chilling it, and making the CO2
more soluble...but this time I put a fermometer on the jug and put the
jug on a phone book near a heat duct.  The temp has not dropped below 70
degrees F and I am still witnessing this weird behavior.
Any ideas?  How am I to know when the starter is done, when it stops
spewing CO2 upon agitation?

In follow-up to the beer swap idea, I have gotten several replies
expressing interest, I will wait a few more days and then the beer swap
will take effect, if you are interested, please mail me.

thanks
Kevin
Nine Inch Ales
http://www.jps.net/tenbrink/nineinchales.htm



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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:21:33 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Butt jelly instead of keg lube...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Tim Martin of Cullowhee, NC (which I'd imagine is quite a distance 
from Jeff Renner) spaketh thusly:

> A mail order brew shop recommended I use Vaseline as a substitute
> for Keg lube. I personally never tried this, since I believe it's a
> petroleum based product, any brave souls care to try it and report
> back.

DON'T DO IT!!!! I used petroleum jelly (same by any other name), being the
foolhardy lad that I am, on the o-ring for the strainer basket cover on my
swimming pool filter. The seal swelled up and became gummy. Having learned
this lesson ("Duh, um, it don't like rubber" occurred to my enfeebled
mind) and being as thick as a brick (The mind could only understand the
"duh" part), I proceeded to use some on the seals on a few of my cornie
kegs. Those having more than two brain-cells to rub together (which
appears to be everyone but me and your mail order supplier) should be able
to guess what the result was...

> #####################

Um, Tim? Trying to curse us? That looks an awful lot like plaid.

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan          pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor            janitor@hbd.org
AOL FDN Beer & Brewing Maven        BrewBeerd at aol.com

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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:32:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Dave Thayer <dthayer at netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Computerized Fridge Controller

In HBD #2629, Mark Riley wrote:

> As to having a PC controlling the relay directly, all
> I can say is that PC's have a tendancy to crash,
> hang, or be otherwise ill disposed.  Although the
> circuit would be more complicated, a better idea would
> be to have the PC set the desired temperature (with a
> DAC) and do the data logging.  Leave the switching
> to a comparator.  If the PC crashed, the comparator
> circuit will still be active and your freezer will stay
> at the last set temperature (i.e. your beer won't be
> ruined).

The Dallas Semiconductor (http://www.dalsemi.com) DS1620 temperature
sensor/controller IC has a digital interface you can connect to your
computer, is factory pre calibrated to 0.5 deg C, and can be hooked to
a relay output with programmable hysterisis. If your PC goes down it
will run in stand-alone mode. All this for about 6 bucks.

Disclaimer: I have not actually used one of these (it's on my to-do
list), but from the specs I've seen it looks perfect for this
application.

your pal dave

- -- 
Dave Thayer
Denver, Colorado USA
dthayer at netcom.com 


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:11:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: mashout & extraction efficiency


In 2629 Smurman at best.com speculates on the reason(s) for the increase in
extraction efficiency often seen when employing a mashout. 

On two of his points I agree.  First, reduced viscosity is irrelevant (I
will explain below), and second, molecular diffusion can not possibly
compete with the effects of simple flushing or rinsing.  The subtle
molecular movements driven by osmotic pressure are totally overwelmed by
the movement of water.  

Try this experiment.  Drop a couple of sugar cubes in a glass of warm
water and let them dissolve on the bottom of the glass.  Wait until the
dissolved sugar diffuses throughout the water (hours). Then, fill another
glass 1/2 full of water and drop in a couple of sugar cubes and wait until
they have dissolved.  As soon as they are dissolved fill the glass the
rest of the way.  Which glass "equilibriated" faster? 

I must however disagree with his conclusion that it is agitation that 
is the cause of the increased extraction efficiency.  I might agree if
we sparged while stirring the complete mash, but we don't.  In fact we
take great pains to NOT disturb the grain bed once established.  Of course
some "rake" or stir the very top portion of the mash bed to reduce
channeling, but most of the solutes leave this portion of the mash quite
quickly.

Before I share my speculation let me say that it is unfortunate that
someone, somewhere, at sometime brought up runoff viscosity as an
explanation for the increased extraction that is often seen when employing
a mashout.  The viscosity of the runoff starts high as the sparge begins
then falls as the sparge progresses, hitting every value in-between.  If
lower viscosity yielded greater extraction then it would happen at the
lower viscosities that naturally occur during the sparge.  Viscosity is
not an issue.

Solubility is the issue.  

More sugar dissolves in hotter water than cooler water.  If you raise the
temperature of the mash by 20F (150F to 170F) you increase the solubility
of dextrose from ~3300g/liter to ~4000g/liter (21% increase) which easily
explains the increased extraction efficiency.  To realize the potential
gains in extraction that mashout yields you must also sparge with water of
similar temperature. 

(Please note that the solubility values were interpolated from the Merck
Index data points of 1.1ml/g  at  25C, 0.8ml/g  at  30C, 0.41ml/g  at  50C,
0.28ml/g  at  70C, 0.18ml/g  at  90C (ml of water per gram of glucose)).

Domenick Venezia   demonick at zgi.antispam.com (remove .antispam)




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Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 21:54:30 PST
From: "Emily Neufeld" <eneufeld at michianatoday.com>
Subject: false bottoms 


As a relatively new all-grain brewer with only one year experience and =
limited equipment, I have been following the protein rest thread quite =
avidly.  I an effort to gain a bit more control over my mashing I purchas=
ed a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler and would like a recommendation on which=
 type of false bottom to build -- screen, manifold, eashymasher (imitator=
) etc.  I would appreciate some advice and instructions on how to build =
or at least directions to sites with instructions.  Private e-mail is fin=
e.  (Note I am sending this from my wife's computer -- she is supportive =
of my brewing but doesn't drink or brew: drewbuscareno at skyenet.net)


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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 23:53:26 EST
From: GordonRick at aol.com
Subject: Growing Southern (US) Hops

For the hopheads in "The Land That Beer Forgot"-

In HBD  #2629, Mark Tumarkin  at  Pura Vida Homebrewery asked about growing hops
in the sunbelt south of the 35th parallel. I live in Columbus, Georgia -
scorching hot summers and fairly sandy soil (similar weather to G-ville Fla,
but fewer coeds!)  My first attempt (Cascade) was a disaster - too much sun
and too close to a reflective garage wall. Hops love sun, but not the heat.
Too much sun will kill them in a hurry. They also love water but need good
drainage. In my attempt to salvage a couple of not quite dead plants, I put
them into large pots with potting soil and tomato stakes. Lots of water! Until
they started outgrowing the stakes, I simply moved the pots in/out of
favorable sunspots during the day (at the time I lived close enough to work to
do this at lunch). After they got too big for this method, I used a nylon
string tied to  another cord strung from a corner of the house to a gutter
(about 12' high). A fair amount of slack allowed quite a bit of movement to
optimize sun/shade sort of like a dog run. Choosing a spot in the yard that
will give several hours of early morning sun and some shade during the hottest
part of the day is the key. The harvest wasn't big (4-5 oz after drying for
two plants) but the smell of fresh lupulin (sp?) was wonderful. Unfortunately,
we were transferred later that year and the dormant rizomes were *accidently*
dumped out so I don't know if the pot method would work over several seasons.
I suppose you could thin the roots each year. BTW, squirrels (tree rats) and
deer love the tender shoots of new growth!

Bottom line - HOPS DON'T GROW WELL IN THE SOUTH. With a lot of work it can be
done, but I doubt commercially. I tried one plant up in the North Georgia
mountains (grapes seem to like it OK) but I think the soil was too acid and it
got too much shade. It survived virtually unattended, but was very scrawny and
never produced flowers. 

I would really like to see some Yr2K Gregor Mendel come along and crossbreed
hops with the mighty kudzu vine! If you have never seen kudzu, Its like ivy
with a foot per day attitude -  old barns turn into large green lumps in a
matter of weeks, and you can not kill it! Any hophead botonists out there up
to the challenge? I read somewhere (sorry - can't recall where) that an
extract from the tuberous root of the kudzu vine increased the body's ability
to metabolize alchohol. I think you see where I'm headed with this - hops that
let you tip a few at your favorite local BP without too quickly becoming a
menace on the highway! Until then, I guess we're stuck with designated drivers
etc.

Prost- 
Rick Gordon
Do try this at home!

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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 23:53:23 EST
From: GordonRick at aol.com
Subject: Getting rid of chlorine

In HBD 2622  Michael Key asked about getting rid of chlorine. My personal
experience with chlorine is based on high pH, low mineral content south
Georgia water, so... The water I was using in my early HB days was sometimes
so dosed with chlorine you could clearly smell it. I was relaxed and not
worrying (sorry Charlie!) and figured it wasn't such a big deal. Bottom line,
most batches tasted alot alike and tended to be very phenolic. I was thinking
I had a rogue house yeast or bacterial infestation going on so I redoubled my
sanitation ritual (with chlorine bleach no less!) I finally figured out that
it might be the chlorine after all and installed an activated charcoal
cartridge type filter on the kitchen water line. I noticed a dramatic
improvement in my beers immediately. Not to mention the coffee, iced tea
etc.Not being one to religiously follow directions on something so simple as a
filter, I didn't stop to check the recommended max flow rate or anything and
was pumping at least 1.5 to 2 GPM. I guess it worked good enough. I now filter
all of my brewing water before treatment, but still don't worry too much about
the flow rate as long as you don't overdo it. Boiling may not be completely
effective with some municipal water treatments (see Fix's book), but the
filter seems to knock the chlorine down to acceptable levels. BTW, I still use
chlorine bleach for sanitization but rinse like the devil! 

Rick 
Hopfen und Malz, Gott Erhalt's

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