---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Clove and Floor Malting (Jason Henning)
  A gibberellic acid question (Jason Henning)
  Yeast info, brewing lagers (Dave Bartz)
  Questions, questions, questions... (Jim English)
  PET bottle label removal ("David Russell ph# 82665")
  Distilled H20 yeast storage (Forrest Duddles)
  BT vs. BYO (Doug Moyer)
  Pale Ale Malt for Wit (KennyEddy)
  Quoting headers, yeast under water was in HBD 96 (Samuel Mize)
  phenols/hop character (Tim Burkhart)
  Bottle-conditioning vs CP filling for lagers? (Paul Shick)
  Lack of body & Cidery taste ("Paal")
  Phenol extraction,yeast storage,Gibberellin ("David R. Burley")
  Rob's HopDevil comments ("Jim Busch")
  BJCP Exam ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Spy ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  More on anthocyanogen-free barley ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  Datapoints for the Druey Equation or..? ("Riedel, Dave")
  Clove in weissbier (Samuel Mize)
  Belgians and Meeting Locations (Phil Wilcox) (TheTHP)
  Phenol? (Duane Hale)
  CIP cleaning & phosphoric acid ("David Hill")
  Superheated steam injection ("John C. Tull")
  Sterile water yeast storage ("Ray Estrella")
  Re: Getting Rid of Chlorine (irajay)
  welding copper to stainless (AlannnnT)
  EXTRACT Tips please ("David Hill")




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:56:54 GMT
From: huskers at olywa.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: Clove and Floor Malting

Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net> in 2535 wants to bring out more =
clove
flavor in a Bavarian Weizen.

I've only done one but it turned out great (at least my buddy and thought
so, drank the entire keg during the Orange Bowl). The key is the mash
schedule. You need to mash in at 111F (I've also read 113F). This will =
free
ferulic acid (4-hydroxy-4-methoxy cinnamic acid). Bavarian wheat yeast
converts this to 4-vinyl-guaiacol. 4-v-g is the clove flavor your after.

- ----

There was an interesting article in Malt Advocate (4th quarter '97, "The
Grapes of Beer" by Lew  Bryson) about maltsters. One of the points I
thought interesting was floor malting vs Saladin boxes.=20

With floor malting, barley is spread on the floor about 4 to 6 inches =
deep
and is turned with rakes by hand. Saladin boxes are upwards to 5' deep =
and
turn the barley with an auger.=20

Mary Ann Gruber of A-B compares floor malting and saladin boxes to a =
Model
T and a Corvette. But the next quote was from William Crisp of Crisp
Malting Group says "saladin malting is simply superior to floor malt".=20

Wow, that's two ringing indorsement for saladin boxes. For a while, I'd
been searching out floor malt barley for my English style ales. I've made
fine ales with both Crisp and Pinkus malts. I guess I'll just go with =
high
quality malts from now on.

Another interesting point is that 80% of the work done at the malt house =
is
cleaning the barley (of poor quality barley corns and trash) before it's
germinated. That means 20% of the work is related to the actual malting.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Lacey, Washington

Reality is an illusion that occurs due to the lack of alcohol. - W.C.
=46ields

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:20:08 GMT
From: huskers at olywa.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: A gibberellic acid question

I'm a little confused about the use of gibberellic acid. The original
question was how can a home maltster get uniform germination.

George De Piro says:

+      The advantages of gibberellic acid are listed as:
+     =20
+      1.  shortening of germination time by two days
+      2.  increased product yield by ~1.0%
+      3.  increase in extract yield by ~1.0%
+      4.  shortened dormancy of the barley

I don't see anything that suggest germination uniformity. I think if
gibberellic acid were use, the original poster would have had just as =
much
endosperm length variance, just sooner.

So, how much did I miss the boat by?

Cheers,
Jason Henning <huskers olywa net>
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Lacey, Washington

Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself =
a
pleasure. - Ambrose Bierce




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:58:58 -0500
From: Dave Bartz <gbrewer at iquest.net>
Subject: Yeast info, brewing lagers


Rosalba e Massimo Faraggi of Italia asks:
>>>>>
I am making my first lager (a Helles Bock) and have some questions for
the HDBers.
1) I got Whitelabs Pilsner yeast; just out of curiosity, does anybody
know if it is the same as any of Wyeast strains (2124, 2206, 2278...)?
And which of the above is Weihenstephen 3470 and which is Pilsener
Urquell (if they are not the same)?
2) Is 46F-48F too low for fermentation with this yeast?
3) I plan to lager at a lower Temp for some weeks then bottle. Can I
bottle condition in the usual way (just priming) or should I add further
yeast (krausening ecc.)? 
4) More generally speaking, I have never tasted bottle conditioned
lager, is it an out-of-style procedure? Do you suggest an alternative
approach?
<<<<<<

The White Labs Pilsner yeast (WLP800) comes from Pilsner Urquell.  Wyeast
2278 comes from the same source and 2124 is said to come from Weihenstephen.
White Labs does say that the WLP800 is best suited for pilsners.
I personally wouldn't hesitate to use it for a Helles Bock.

White Labs recommends fermentation temps for the Pilsner yeast, to be
between 50-55F.  You could probably go a little lower but would just have to
be a little more patient.

You shouldn't have to add yeast at bottling.  Just condition at room
temperature, once in the bottle, for a couple weeks and then feel free to
cold condition for as long as you want.

Obviously most commercial pilsners/lagers you come across here in the US and
in Continental Europa are filtered or cold conditioned to clear them and
have always been brewed with the intention of being crystal clear.
Homebrewing gives us the opportunity to see what bottle coditioning a lager
will do, so why not go for it.  

Brew and learn!
Salute

Dave Bartz
The Gourmet Brewer
"Beer is Good" 5000 BC
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/ 

Dave Bartz (Prez) "Beer is good" - 5000 B.C.
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/
The Gourmet Brewer P.O. Box 20688 Indianapolis, IN 46220-0688
Visa, Mastercard, A E and Discover welcomed.
(317)924-0747 or(888)860-1600 X328394
Check out the best hop special in the country at:
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/catalog/2hop.htm           




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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:47:02 -0500
From: Jim English <jimebob at mindspring.com>
Subject: Questions, questions, questions...

Having acquired an old refrigerator recently, naturally my thoughts turned
to lagers.
  Trying to acheive the homebrewers holy grail, i.e. a brew the SO really
likes, will require making a lager/pilsner of some description.
  This brings me to the aforementioned questions:

1. What style is Becks Dark?  Is it regular Becks and food coloring (or
caramelization) or is it a different style alltogether.  My palate is not
quite THAT educated yet.

2. What mashing schedule would you advise for Munton & Fison Lager Malt, to
acheive a relatively thin, dry finish. I'm trying a Dave Line inspired
Stella Artois clone.  I can find no references to British Lager Malts in my
books and their modification numbers etc...  Keep in mind that the recipe
incorporates 10% crushed wheat malt.
  The recipe I have calls for doughing in at 45=B0C, raising to 55=B0, rest=
 for
30 minutes, raise to 60=B0 and mash for 90 more minutes.  I will be using a
step infusion method so I thought I might dough in really stiff (less than 1
qt./lb) and just add 200=B0 water in small increments quite often to=
 gradually
ramp up the temp. without getting too thin. (I guess I'm a cosmopolitan kind
of guy too, mixing temp. scales like that...) =20

3. How small is small enough for a copper manifold in a mash tun.  I drilled
one-eighth holes in a piece of snaky three-eighths copper in my cooler and
had quite a hard time getting the wort to run clear (small bits of grain
husk floating in it).  Should I go down to three-thirtyseconds or even
one-sixteenth, or is that last number tooooo small?


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:24:29 -0500
From: "David Russell ph# 82665" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: PET bottle label removal

First thanks to all for the Brown Ale information last week.  I will be brewing
next weekend.

I am also making a batch of soda for the kids.  I have been collecting PET
bottles but am unable to remove the adhesive successfully.  I am looking for
some non-toxic solution to remove the labels (I know lighter fluid would work).
 Soaking in water gives me no results and rubbing with vegtable oil (works
somtimes on other adhesives) is unsuccessful.

Private e-mail is fine.

- -- 
David Russell   drussel3 at ford.com    Plymouth, MI

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:47:46 +0000
From: Forrest Duddles <duddles at Imbecile.kzoo.edu>
Subject: Distilled H20 yeast storage

Greetings folks,

 Troy Hager asked whether any of us had tried the distilled water yeast
storage technique described in a BT last year.

 I was curious about this technique and decided to give it a try so last
October I poured a couple of agar plates and started cultures of wyeast
2112. I then autoclaved three 1 dram vials half full of distilled water.
After a few days I placed a few loopfulls of yeast in each vial and set
them on a shelf in my office. I followed the same procedure for wyeast
1098 in mid December.

 I plan to try to resurrect a 2112 culture in a couple of weeks and I'll
report my findings to the list. I hope this works - it's a painless way
to develop yeast library.

 Has anybody else out there tried this?

Hope this helps!
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:15:28 -0500
From: Doug Moyer <moyer-de at salem.ge.com>
Subject: BT vs. BYO

Collective,
	I received the latest copy of Brew Your Own magazine yesterday, and
upon cursory examination, I was struck by a thought. (Which is rare
enough to be worthy of comment.) I'm not sure that I've ever seen posts
to the HBD by the authors in BYO (though Sean Mick is on the board of
BYO, or something). But, Brewing Techinques' contributors are often
regulars on the HBD. Perhaps that says something about the quality of
the content of the two magazines. (Although that is readily evident by
perusing the content....)
	Also, there was a half page ad for AB's Michelob Honey Lager (bleech!
too sweet on an empty body!). Obviously a big difference in the target
audience betwixt the two.
	When I first subscribed to BYO (and I did so for an ungodly long
subscription period) I wasn't aware of any other resources.
Subsequently, our little city in southwest Virginia got a homebrew store
and a "real" bookstore. Of course, I discovered the HBD and the Brewery
web site. I now find that I am often quite critical of the content of
BYO, in my head echoing things I've read in the HBD. What an amazing
resource. Thank you all!

Doug Moyer in Salem, VA
Nothing on tap :-(

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:35:48 EST
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Pale Ale Malt for Wit

Kevin asks about using DWC Pale Ale malt in a wit:

"This time I thought I would try Dewolf-Cosyns Belgian pale ale malt.  My
question is; will this malt perform well with a single step infusion mash
or is a protein rest in order.  I was just curious if the Belgian malt
would have simular enzyme to english 2-row."

To directly answer the questions, no, it wouldn't require a protein rest and
yes, it would (presumably) have comparable enzyme content to English malt.
However, a wit really should be made with "pale" malt (typically a pilsner-
type malt) as opposed to "pale ale" malt.  Based on the discussions in recent
HBDs, most of today's continental malts are adequately modified to obviate the
protein rest (though if memory serves DWC may be iffy).  Try some Durst or
Weyerman German Pilsner malt instead of the pale ale malt, and use a single
infusion.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:15:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Quoting headers, yeast under water was in HBD 96

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
> Subject: Re:Musings and questions on my first use of EasyMasher

> First of all, someone chewed me out for using parts of the header to 
> identify the poster I was responding to.  He went away mad because 
> I did not understand what he was complaining about.  Does this cause
> anyone else grief?

I don't understand either.  Like me, you quote the sender and subject
to identify who and what you're replying to.

This is especially helpful when replying in one message to several posts.
I use divider lines too (see below).

However, I will comment that your quoting style (one leading " per
paragraph) is less clear than setting off each line, especially when
multi-paragraph quotes and replies are inter-mixed.

 - - - - - - -
> From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
> Subject: Long term yeast storage in distilled H2O

> Recently reread the article in BT by Michael Graham about long term yeast
> storage in distilled H2O.
 ...
> I have also never heard it mentioned here in
> the last 6 months that I have been reading HBD.

Check the HBD archives for 1996, and Deja News for posts on
rec.crafts.brewing.

> ...why not switch to the distilled
> water method suggested by Graham?

Most people will probably keep doing whatever works for them.  Give it
a try and report your success (or lack thereof).

> Private email is great!

I agree!  (OK, OK, I sent him a copy...)

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/
Personal net account - die gedanken sind frei

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:20:41 +0000
From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: phenols/hop character

First I wanted to say how much I'm enjoying the deep discussions on phenols!
I wanted to add/support George De Piro's post albeit in a very unscientific
way. I had some friends over to try my "plastic" ale. Out of 8 people, one
was bothered by it. This person could not identify the phenol itself, but
attributed an off-sweet taste other than malt. Needless to say, I was
surprised. I got rid of that batch right quick...on to the next.
Now a hop question: Does a partial wort boil negativly affect final
bitterness and hop aroma?
I am ready to bottle a partial mash, 5 gal. Dunkelweizen. I did a 3 gal. 60
min. boil with 2 oz. Hallertau, 20 min. of .5 oz. Saaz, and finished with
another .5 oz. Saaz. I added the chilled wort to 2.5 gal. of cold water and
pitched. During initial fermentation a noticible hop aroma escaped from the
lock. At secondary it was still strong. At my last gravity reading the aroma
was diminished significantly. I'm sure bottling will bring out the
bitterness, but if the aroma is gone at bottling, will it come back? If I
had done a full wort boil, would that improve it?
Tim Burkhart
Kansas City
mailto:tburkhart at dridesign.com 

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:29:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Bottle-conditioning vs CP filling for lagers?



Hello all,

	I'm in the middle of my winter run of lagers, and I've been mulling 
over a recent posting by Jethro DePiro/George Moline from Seibel.  They
report that introducing oxygen at bottling is many times worse than hot
side aeration.  The data they posted, I'm guessing, must come from 
counter-pressure bottled beers.  Shouldn't bottle-conditioned beers be more
resistant to sloppy bottling than CP filled?  My guess is that active yeast
would gobble up most unwanted oxygen very quickly.

	I recently acquired an inexpensive CP filler, with the intention of
lagering at very low temperatures, force carbonating, then CP filling.  Would
"semi-lagering" at 40F, then bottle-conditioning yield a more stable beer?
I realize that a 33F or so lagering would probably yield a cleaner beer, but
will it last as long?  George?  Rob?

	
			Paul Shick

P.S.  Thanks for the reports from Seibel.  I'm sure every HBDer is trying
to come up with a way to spend a week there.





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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:14:36 +0100
From: "Paal" <Paal.Hansen at pki.uib.no>
Subject: Lack of body & Cidery taste

Lack of body & Cidery taste

I have been brewing now for 2 years, and getting more advanced my
expectations rise.  So, I have not yet done it -all grain-, but bought kits
like "Coopers" , "Mundsons" etc.  They all work all right.  The first
problem I met was a distinct "yeast"-taste in my beer.  Back then I did
secondary fermentation to carbonate my beer.  I solved this by buying a
carbonater, and uses this to put CO2 into my beer.  The yeast etc. is
removed from the beer using some sort of "beer clearing" agent.  The result
is a fairly good beer, but two problems anoys me ?

	- There is a kind of cidery taste ?
		--> could this be due to the carbonation, table sugar etc ?
	- The beer lacks body(,though not much really!)

So, I guess a lot of you brewing fellows knows a lot more than me about
this.  Anyone care to help.  Please mail to:

Paal.Hansen at pki.uib.no

(or send an article to this brillian e-magazine)

Cheers,
	Paal
	(Norway, Europe)

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:01:09 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Phenol extraction,yeast storage,Gibberellin

Brewsters:

Scott Murman and Steve Alexander ( excellent BT article
 - Steve!) comment on phenol extraction/mashout temperature.

>Scott (smurman at best.com) writes re mashout and efficiency
>It's no coincidence that the recommended mashout temp.
is the maximum
>before tannoid extraction becomes a problem.

SteveA says:
>If you have a source on this I'd really like to see it.  I've searched
>high and low and have yet to find any critical temperature for phenol
>extraction. As a rule, increasing mash temps will permit more phenol
>extraction and better solubility of some of the naughtier phenols.
>Yet I still have no reference that indicates why a mashout temp of say
>76C is more than a slight improvement over an 80C mashout.  It'd be
>interesting to understand why.

I always thought the maximum on the mashout temperature
was to avoid starch gelatinization of any remaining bits of
unreacted starch. Keeping the pH of the sparge down was to
control phenol extraction. As the mashout temperature goes up,
the pH falls and if the solubility of phenols is dependent
solely on the  ionization of the phenolic group ( as you might
expect from its pH dependency), the solubility of the phenol
in this form should logically decrease with temperature.
Don't know if it does since the molecular form of the phenolic
substance and the ionization of the phenol may increase and it
may become more soluble as T increases. As the wort is cooled,
these should come back out.  Anybody?
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Troy Hager ponders why people bother with slanting yeast
as a storage method versus using clean distilled water. I
have wondered the same thing, since the distilled water
method dates back many decades to Scandinavia when
refrigerators weren't around and as I recall yeast were kept
at room temperature for up to year this way.  I suppose the
slant phenomenon has to do with the storage volume for
avid ranchers or just educational training.

Some people have recommended storing yeast under 15%
glycerin in the freezer.  From comments here, I understand
that this is not the best method if you have a frost-free
refrigerator in which this thaws and melts, as it reduces
the viability.

Personally, I keep the washed remains of full batches under
boiled RO water in a capped beer bottle in my refrigerator
and find good viability to produce a starter.  I always worry that
those nutrient-rich slants or beer, if the yeast were stored this
way, would harbor bacteria and I would end up with a
contaminated yeast.
- ----------------------------------------------------------         =

George De PIro makes some excellent comments on the
effect of Gibberellic acid in malting barley, is surprised
by the low dosage of Gibberelic Acid in barley sprouting
and worries about adding "chemicals" to this process.

By reducing the dormancy of the barley, Gibberellic Acid
improves the consistency of sprouting, which is why I
suggested it as a potential solution to the question on how
to get uniform sprouting.

Gibberellic Acid is a natural product first discovered as
a by-product of fungal growth on rice plant stems which
caused the stems to grow so long that the head fell over
due to the spindly stems and reduced the yield of rice.
Gibberellic Acid ( from various natural sources with varying
effect as Mort O'Sullivan noted.) is used world wide in barley
malting and has been for decades.  It is also safely  used for
sprouting many seeds and to control flower blooming in
greenhouses around the world.

SInce it interferes with basic biochemical growth
mechanisms, its effect is multiplied and it doesn't take
much to be effective.  It must be used in the microgram
levels as George noted and comes in the diluted form as a
dry powder or absorbed on paper for the home gardener
and nurseryman. This is typically diluted with water at the
time of application and sprayed on the seeds or plants
as required.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK             =


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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:26:55 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Rob's HopDevil comments

Our own Jethro reports:

> Courtesy of George De Piro, I had an opportunity to taste the HopDevil
> brew made by the Victory Brewing Company. Good God, I wish I could brew
> like that!!! Gentlemen and women, my credentials don't count for much, 
>and  anyone who knows me will attest to my absence ofbrewing 
>knowledge and taste...but count on it...this beer screams Gold 
>Medal....my prediction Well done!

Rob is too kind and humble, anyone who wins a gold in Barleywine is a 
fine brewer in my book.  Thanks a lot for the kind words about our 
beloved HopDevil IPA.  You are not alone in your assessment of this 
beer, it remains our largest off premise seller despite the fact that 
Victory Brewing was founded to be a serious lager brewery that 
specializes in German style lagers.  Thats fine by us, as we love the 
hoppy 'Devil as well as other great English and American ales.  As 
for Gold medals, there remains a serious debate about attending the 
GABF as it is a somewhat costly event for such a small and locally 
oriented brewery as Victory Brewing Co.  That said, we have made 
plans to be in attendance in force at this years first GABF on the 
road show, in our local market of Baltimore, Md in May.   I think we 
will have 5 beers in attendance including Prima Pils, HopDevil IPA, 
St Boisterous Hellerbock, Victory Festbier and possibly still some St 
Victorious Doppelbock (which was just released in bottles and draft 
last week).   Who knows, I may even have some Dusseldorfer Altbier 
ready for market by then.

Anyway, as much as any brewery would love the recognition of medals, 
we are far more concerned with pleasing our own palates as we view 
our owners as the prime example of our intended market, beer geeks 
like you and I.   To hear the praise from the likes of George and Rob 
just reinforces our business philosophy to put the quality of the 
beers first and foremost over bottom line costs.   

Prost!

Jim Busch
http://www.victorybeer.com



HopDevil IPA - Menacingly Delicious!
"One of the best IPAs in the country" -
D. Brockington, Seattle, WA.

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:49:25 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: BJCP Exam

To all interested in BJCP exam in mid atlantic area:
     A BJCP exam will be held on Friday June 26 at 7pm in the Malvern,
PA area
as part of the BUZZ Off homebrew competion (QE for MCAB). In addition,
six
review sessions will be held for the exam on April 14, 21, May 5, 19,
and
June 2, 16 at 7pm at Beer Unlimited in Malvern. If you are interested in
taking the exam and/or the review sessions please e-mail Dave Houseman
at:
dhousema at cccbi.chester.pa.us or call Beer Unlimited at 610-889-0905 to
register.


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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:21:50 +0000 (GMT)
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <J.M.O'Sullivan at hw.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Spy

Hmm.. 'Spy' doesn't sound quite accurate to me. More like 'fellow 
student of brewing.' Yes, I am studying at the International 
Centre for Brewing and Distilling and I've been lurking on the hbd 
for a while. I'll continue to chime in when I feel I have 
something useful to say.
Cheers.
- --
Mort O'Sullivan
ICBD (Edinburgh, Scotland)


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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:41:14 +0000 (GMT)
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <J.M.O'Sullivan at hw.ac.uk>
Subject: More on anthocyanogen-free barley

Yesterday, I said Carlsberg's efforts at producing an 
anthocyanogen-free barley had largely failed. To be fair to the 
folks at Carlsberg (as if they are listening in) they have not 
given up their pursuit and may eventually succeed. Their earlier 
attempts in the 70's were with a genetic mutant of the Foma 
cultivar but they have been working on their techniques in the lab 
and claim to have three promising new varieties with 
much better yields and malting potential: (Caminant, Gant, and 
Anisa). There is still work to be done though, as Carlsberg itself 
notes that the flavor of beers produced with Caminant is 'not 
quite satisfactory.'  They have taken to blending Caminant 1:1 
with normal malt to produce better tasting beers with at least 
improved physical stability. As of late 1997, only Caminant was 
available commercially and only to a very limited extent in 
Denmark, at that. Gant and Anisa are still in trial stages and 
have not yet been grown on a scale that would allow commercial 
use. 
So, 5-10 years from now it is possible that you will be able to 
choose a proanthocyanidin-free malt, but many in the brewing 
community are still skeptical and doubt such a malt would be worth 
brewing with. From a personal perspective, I would much rather use 
a traditional malt plus a few filter aids than mess with a 
genetically manipulated barley (the consequences of which no one 
is entirely certain).

- --
Mort O'Sullivan
ICBD (Edinburgh, Scotland)


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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:00:49 -0800
From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at dfo-mpo.gc.ca>
Subject: Datapoints for the Druey Equation or..?

In the last month I've made a couple of lagers.  First a Munich Dunkel,
then a Vienna lager.  For both beers, I had chosen specific attenuation
levels, so I thought it would be an excellent time to try out Kyle
Druey's
mash schedule predictor.  

For the Dunkel, I wanted to go from 1.053 to 1.014-15; Kyle's linear
model 
said: 26-28 min at 60C/140F and 62-64 min at 70C/158F.  I added a 10 min

step at 50C/122F and a 5 min mashout at 75C/167F (10-15 min during temp.
steps).

Grain bill:	1.25 kg Canadian Malting 2-row
		3.5 kg  Hugh Baird Munich
		150 g   HB Crystal 80L
		25 g    HB Black Patent

Yeast:		Wyeast Bavarian (2206) - 3.5 litre starter

SG		1.053 
OG 		1.014 (2 wks later) - now lagering at ~2C/34F

For the Vienna, I wanted 1.050 to 1.010; Druey's new and improved
exponential
said use 60 min  at  60C/140F and 30 min  at  70C/158F.  To keep the playing
field
level, I used the now horribly obsolete linear model which said 45 min
at each
temp.  Note: plugging the linear results into the exponential gives an
FG from
1.050 of 1.011, so I figured I was safe.  Changes from the Dunkel?  A
couple:
5 min more at 50C/122F; one 'notch' coarser grind on the Valley mill to
the
popular 'second coarsest' setting; and, different malt.

Grain bill:	3.7 kg	DWC pils		(mighty tasty wort BTW)
		0.75 kg	Ireks Vienna
		400 g	DWC CaraVienne
		55 g	DWC Special B 

Yeast:		Pitched onto dregs of Dunkel

SG		1.051
FG		1.015  (ferment only lasted about 1 week; racked after
bubbling
			dropped to 1/60s and beer had begun to drop
clear, as
			above)

Hmmm.  Scenario 1 worked perfectly, scenario 2... not so much.  Why?
Aeration
of each was via venturi tube and 'shaking til exhausted'.  Temperature
of 
ferment was 54-55F for both.  Pitching temp was about 48F for both.  Lag
time
for both was under 8 hrs (I assume - it was bubbling at about 1/2+ sec
24hrs
later).  

Note, the Vienna did seem to have more activity during the SG
measurement than 
the dunkel did.  It also rose to above 60F during the rack, so I suspect
some 
of the activity was C02 coming out of soln.  I hope I didn't stop the
ferment
early... if I did, is there enough yeast around to finish the job? (I've
left it
at room temp for a couple of days to act as a last gasp ferment/diacetyl
rest).

Can I expect much more drop in gravity with the Vienna during lagering
or does
that phase only allow the yeast to clean up the fermented product?  Is
Kyle's 
offering a snake-oil equation? :)

Writing nearly as much as my namesake Mr. Burley, but resisting the urge
to 
summarize everything and recommend Clinitest ;^)

Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Canada 


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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:56:19 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Clove in weissbier

Greetings to all,

And thanks for all the info about maximizing clove in a weissbier!

The profoundly forbearing collective even refrained from saying "check
the archives, you idiot."  Once I thought to do so, I got even more
data.  However, the email had some details that were not yet in the
archives, so here's a summary.

By the way, anybody know how to increase the VANILLA character of a
weissbier?  (That's the goal for one of my correspondents.)

 - - - - -

INCREASING CLOVE CHARACTER IN A WEISSBIER

1) ALL-GRAIN: a protein mash at 109-113F for thirty minutes to develop
ferulic acid, which the yeast will convert to clove flavors.  (Another
mentioned an acid rest at 95-105F.)

2) Fermentation temperature.  Most recommend cooler, a few warmer.  My
guess is, those saying to go warmer are starting much colder.  We
definitely want to get below 65F, one claims 40-50F.  Warmer than this
brings out banana esters, and supresses clove.

Paul Hausman has heard that "the ideal Bavarian Weizen is pitched and
fermented at the same temperature, and that the sum of these two temps
should be about 130-132 oF."  IE, if one's a little higher than 65,
offset the other a little lower.

3) Yeast.  Wyeast 3068 is a great choice, a terrible choice.  :-)

Some people (including DePiro) report plenty of clove from 3068,
others say it gives no clove at all.  I suspect temperature is
critical.  Note that 3068 apparently produces a huge krausen.

Other yeasts reported as good clove producers: YCKCo A50, Yeastlab
Bavarian Weizen W51, Brew Tek CL-920 "German Wheat" and CL-930 "German
Weiss" (most clove from CL-920).  Wyeast 3056 is reported to produce
some clove, but ONLY if fresh (Al K).

4) ALL-GRAIN: Mark Nesdoly said decoction mashing "really lends a
spiciness to the wort that I can't get otherwise."

5) Barley.  Preferable if the barley is 2-row.  Paul said the only
extract he's found that is made with 2-row is the house 65% wheat DME
from "The Home Brewery", mail order and on the web ("Std. disclaimers,
YMMV, etc.").

7) Serving temperature.  Jeff Renner said "I think all flavors come
through better at warmer temps, but not over ~48F for this style."

8) To pour roughly enough to get the yeast out, without getting a huge
head: invert the bottle in a tall glass, raise it slowly to prevent a
big head from forming.  This is reported as the "slick" way to do it
in Germany, but apparently requires a bit of practice.

Info from the HBD archives, and from email by Kyle Druey, Brian K
Dulisse, Paul A. Hausman, Frank Kalcic, Mark T A Nesdoly, Christopher
Peterson and Jeff Renner.

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/
Personal net account - die gedanken sind frei

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:15:43 EST
From: TheTHP at aol.com
Subject: Belgians and Meeting Locations (Phil Wilcox)

Greetings all,

My Belgian finally stopped fermenting (Brewed 12/27) and I racked it into a
keg (2/1), cranked the psi up to 20 to seal it and am now cellering it. I know
very little about Belgians. Ray Daniels left them out of his book, I've got
bits and pieces from my other books but nobody really gets into it at any
depth. And I havn't found the time or $$ to find and buy the AHA styles series
book. All my brewing monies are going into my new yet to be completed two-tier
1/2 barrel system. Anyway. What I wanted to know is how should I cellar it? As
is, 60F in my basement brew closet? Or should It go into the serving fridge
for "Lagering" at 42F. I'm assuming because its a BIG beer it needs to mellow
but how long should it age? Should I carbonate it first? Or age then
carbonate? What to do with this big bad Belgian?


Brew Club Meetings:
The Prison City Brewers met at my house Tuesday night, due to a scheduling
error on my part and two large parties at the brew pub. They all liked the
private house setting much better! It made me curious to where and how other
clubs meet? So how about a small survey?

Club Name:
# of Members:
Do you meet at a Brew pub?
Do you meet at a Brew shop?
Do you meet at another Public establishment? Explain.
Do you meet at a members house? 
	Does the location change monthly?
Do you meet at another Private establishment? Explain.

Ill tally and republish.

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewery
Sec/Treas Prison City Brewers & AABG Member

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:39:53 -0800
From: Duane Hale <dhale at gte.net>
Subject: Phenol?

With all the recent talk of "plastic-smelling" phenols, this seems like
a good time to ask my first few questions. My first few beers that I
brewed
(extract) a year or two ago had an effect that resembles an aftertaste.
After a
drinking a few swallows of those beers and releasing my usual very small
(not
even audible) burps, I taste, what to me, tastes like burning plastic
smells,
instead of the usual pleasant hop burps. There is nothing medicinal or
band-aidy
about this smell/taste. After these first few belches, I become
sensitized and I
can then taste the "burning plastic" taste while the beer is in my
mouth. One
batch was so bad, I could taste and smell it right away and ended up
tossing
most of it, which I know is a no-no, but anyone else would have to have
a very
high threshold for this taste, to be able to drink more than a couple of
drinks
of it. Believe me, I tried to force myself to drink my precious
homebrew.

	To remedy this, I took what sounded like the best suggestion from
Miller
and Papazian for fixing phenol/chlorophenol problems and started
fermenting
at below room temperatures (62F-70F). I have always made concerted
efforts to
rinse the bleach off of everything, so I don't think that was the
problem. The
problem seems to have gone away, but I keep hearing talk of successful
fermentations at temperatures up to 80F and my last few all-grain
batches have
been very roasty which might be helping to cover up this taste, so I
wonder if
it is really fixed.

	I have also tasted this chemical, possibly a phenol, in professional
craft brews and to me it is a defect of some kind. The craft brews that
I have
tasted it in are from respected craft brewers and include some beers
from Bert
Grant and most of the Nor'wester brews, particularly the hefeweizens.

	So, my questions are:
	Am I the only one to have these experiences of bad burp aftertastes?
	What is this "burning plastic" taste, a phenol, chlorophenol, or
	  something else?
	What causes this chemical to be present, even in some craft brews?
	Are there other chemicals in beer that can be both tasted and smelled?
	And, most importantly, what can be done to keep a beer from having a
	  "burning plastic" taste/smell?

	BTW, thanks for all the past and future brew education. And that
posting on
"kitchen maltings" by Mort O'Sullivan was superb and like a breath of
fresh
"practical hard data" air.

Duane Hale
Fuzu's Fuzzy Fluxion Homebrewery
now in Lacey, WA

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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:56:40 +1100
From: "David Hill" <davidh at melbpc.org.au>
Subject: CIP cleaning & phosphoric acid

Begging the group's tolerance for a topic undoubtably covered many times =
before.

I ferment and larger in 25lit plastic cubes with a 10ml vinyl tube =
fitted into the filler cap and leading to an air lock..

The cubes have the advantage of being cheap and more importantly I can =
fit four of them into my brew or larger fridge. The disadvantage is the =
nooks and crannies out of reach of a cleaning brush.

To clean I add about 5lit of NaOH soln and shake vigorously for a moment =
or two every time that I walk past and then putting the fermenter down =
up the other way to which I found it.

After 24  hours (or when I get around to it,)  I flush with lots of =
fresh water, rinse with iodophor and leave until next required when I =
rinse with iodophor, drain and use.


QUESTION;
Should I be using an acid rinse in this procedure to assist in the =
cleaning?
If so is phosphoric acid the correct material?
and at what concentration and for how long.?

What safety considerations apply with phosphoric acid.?

Many thanks for any advice.

Direct e-mail would be fine.=20
David Hill.   davidh at melbpc.org.au      :-)>



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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:34:01 -0800
From: "John C. Tull" <tullj at u.arizona.edu>
Subject: Superheated steam injection

I have filtered through most of the HBD posts on superheated steam
injection
used for mashing and boiling wort in a Gott/Rubbermaid cooler.

I would like to hear comments from anyone who has built a superheated
steam
system that enables boiling of the wort. Is it effective for boiling?
What was
your design? Is flexible copper tubing suitable for superheating via
flame
cooker? Was there any warping of the base of the cooler from the
superheated steam (assuming your manifold directs downward)? Any
additional comments...

Please respond directly to me if you do not wish to post publicly.

John C. Tull
tullj at u.arizona.edu

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:29:54 -0600
From: "Ray Estrella" <ray-estrella at email.msn.com>
Subject: Sterile water yeast storage

  Hello to all,
Troy Hager asks about sterile distilled water yeast storage,

>Recently reread the article in BT by Michael Graham about long term yeast
>storage in distilled H2O. Sounds great, seems easy enough, he seems to know
>what he is talking about... but
>Are other people doing this? I reread Fix last night and he mentions
>nothing about this technique. I have also never heard it mentioned here in
>the last 6 months that I have been reading HBD. Are you all using slants
>and plates to store your yeast?

  I recently concluded a one year experiment with said yeast
storage technique. I first read about it 18 months ago, and
spent two frustrating evenings trying to find more information
about it. Do you how many University net sites have yeast pages?
This was before the excellent BT article.
  I made up a few storage vials and collected some German ale
yeast colonies from a plate, placed one colony in each vial,
and put them in my office at room temperature for 12 months.
I just made a cream ale with one of them, starting the yeast
the same as with a slant.  It worked great. I now am storing
all of my yeast this way, and after this years batch of slants
are gone will not be making or buying any more. (slants)
I am going to keep the other two original test vials and make
a batch with them each of the next two years as an ongoing
experiment as to its viability. At this time I have 12 vials,
of 4 strains of yeast stored in this manner.
  The up side to it is that the yeast seems to last much longer,
at room temp, with no autolysis, or degradation. I found references
to yeast being fine after 5 years of storage. (Web article)
I am going to write my thoughts and findings up for our club,
and will forward them to anyone that is interested.  Just e-mail
a request to me.

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

****** Never Relax, Constantly Worry....have a better Homebrew ******







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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:20:56 +0000
From: irajay at ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Getting Rid of Chlorine

I too use chlorine and rinse with hot and cold water.  But I don't 
worry about infection because I have been doing for years without an 
infection happening.  I also add non boiled tap water to my wort and 
have been doing so for years without infection.  I think that 
reasonable sanitation is a must, but really, I think it is possible 
to get too paranoid about infection.  Now watch, I'll probably lose 
my next batch of beer to infection.

Ira

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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:23:34 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: welding copper to stainless

I know we have some welding experts listening, and I need some advice. I'm
interested in welding a copper bottom to a stainless keg mash tun. Similar to
a copper clad bottom on a kitchen pot. I believe I will get a more even
heating, and lesson the possibility of scorching the mash.  

I have no problem with the normal stainless welding, or more correctly, my
friend the acomplished welder, has no problem with stainless on stainless.
With copper to stainless I expect trouble. Anyone out there tried this yet? I
have copper roof flashing which is plenty thick but also pliable. I assume
it's best to weld this on the outside of the keg since the inside would be
impossible. Looking for tips and tricks!

Best Brewing,
Alan Talman   

New thread to consider,
Botulism cures alcoholism  

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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:20:37 +1100
From: "David Hill" <davidh at melbpc.org.au>
Subject: EXTRACT Tips please

It is possible to make beer from extract
=20
there must be methods, tips, practices etc that assist in the making of =
good beer from extract.
=20
Any pointers to archives dealing with perfecting Extract beer would be =
appreciated.
=20
=20
=20
I presently, when short of the time do to a full mash do an extract =
pilsener=20
brew day time is less than an hour cf  full mash 8 hours,
biggest problem with extract brew day is lack of convivial "Relax =
etc...."=20
=20
My current system for a QUICK Pilsener
6kg LME
1kg dextrose=20
250 gms malto dextrin pdr=20
=20
the lot boiled 15mins in 15 lit water with immersion chiller to =
sterilise chiller
chill to 50 centigrade
teaspoon Irish moss
add 13ml isomerised hop extract for bitterness
make up to 50 lit with cold water=20
=20
pitch with Wyest barvarian (forgotten the number)
ferment in 25 lit 'cubes' in fridge at 11 centigrade,,
=20
rack to secondary in 4 days
20 to 40 gms aroma hop pellets in nylon bag to secondary for 2 weeks
=20
larger for as long as thirst will allow (average 4 weeks)
serve from 18lit corny kegs =20
=20
Result is a pale, clear, clean, bitter brew with good head retention and =
hop aroma.
=20
Any tips on recipe or procedures to improve extract beers greatly =
appreciated.
=20
AIMS are to produce a beer that is a joy to drink, that gives pride to =
serve and consumes the absolute minimum time in the brew and clean up =
process.
=20
YES, I do know extract is more fun, and frequently produces a better =
beer. But this request is for good minimum fuss extract beer.
=20
TIA
=20
David Hill=20
    =20
=20
David Hill.   davidh at melbpc.org.au      :-)>   =20



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---