---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Short note on slotted copper lauter tuns... ("Michael G. Zentner")
  re: Moldy taps & EM low flow problem ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Osmotic Presssure ("David R. Burley")
  fuller's esb ("Dulisse, Brian K [PRI]")
  Antifreeze/Butter Pils (AJ)
  Boiling O2 caps (RMerid7682)
  Re: Wyeast 3942 ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  re: removing foil labels ("Greg Pickles")
  Extract advise (JGORMAN)
  Mail order Companies & disaster averted ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Fw: Palexperiment - Update ("Michel J. Brown")
  Mash efficiency (ricjohnson)
  Foil Label Removal ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  re. Welding Copper to Stainless / KennyEddy ("John Palmer")
  HB in Taiwan ("Alex Aaron")
  Sherry flavors (Dave Williams)
  Chloramine / Indoor Propane Use (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
  Brunette (OCaball299)
  A wupass stout.. ("Joe K. Chang")
  Pale Ale experiment (Randy Ricchi)
  GA (slightly technical, sorry) ("Mort O'Sullivan")




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:32:11 -0800
From: "Michael G. Zentner" <zentner at combination.com>
Subject: Short note on slotted copper lauter tuns...

I saw a short time back a lament about how one bends copper in a tight
radius to connect pipes in these tuns.  Unfortunately, I missed a couple
of digests and didn't see the followup, if any.  I apologize if this has
been posted, but in case not, here goes.  It didn't work for me either,
so the first thing I tried was plastic tubing, which of course when
heated to mash temperature, softened and kinked.  However, if you take
some of your copper tubing and cut ringlets between 1/8" and 1/4", and
stuff them inside of the short section of tubing, you can then curve it
180 degrees and connect two sections of slotted copper nicely.  It also
makes disassembly for cleaning easy.

Mike Zentner


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:23:12
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Moldy taps & EM low flow problem 

Here's a summary of replies I got on ways to prevent mold growth:

Pat Babcock recommends rinsing the ends of taps with water via a spray
bottle (set to stream, not mist) and then letting them drain over a drip
pan.  The pan is connected with hose to a 2L Pepsi bottle.  Occasionally,
the bottle is emptied and the drippage system rinsed with bleach water.

Charles Hudak says to always give the tap a couple of shakes after use and
a good cleaning with PBW solution when the keg is drained.  For beer that
isn't dispensed very quickly, he noted that the lines will gunk up from
having beer sit in them.

Domenick Venezia says to rinse the tap and lines after each use. An extra
keg can be filled with water or keg/tap/line cleaner and used to rinse the
tap and lines.  

Jeremy Bergsman suggested keeping the taps in salt water and giving them a
quick shake before dispensing brew.  

THANKS guys!
 - - - - - - 
>From an Jack Schmidling vs. Danny Breidenbach exchange: 

>>That's even with the inside copper tube rotated so the intake is above
>>the outlet of the apigot.  When it's rotated down near the bottom of the
>>kettle, I think most impartial observers would characterize the flow as
>>a "trickle."

>There is obviously something wrong as it should make no difference
>whatever how the tube in rotated.  

Pardon my butting in... If tubing to the EM is below the spigot and
flexible tubing is connected to the spigot, there'll be a trapped air
pocket in the tube/spigot.  Like air trapped in the upper portion of a
siphon, this will greatly reduce the flow by reducing the effective flow
area.  Flushing the air out by squeezing on the flexible tubing  downstream
of the spigot (like one does with a siphon) might help expell the air;
otherwise, replumbing or an air vent valve will be needed.  


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:23:43 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Osmotic Presssure

Brewsters:

C.D. Pritchard responds to Dominick Venezia's suggestion
that recirculating during sparging was a desirable thing to do
and that it had something to do with osmotic pressure.

Neither concept is correct.

C.D. Pritchard says:
>I've not recicrulated while sparging- I SWAGed the highish
concentration of
>sugar in the recirc. wouldn't extract enough sugar to make
the gain worth
>the pain (i.e. not enough osmotic pressure).

Both Spencer Thomas ( I believe) and I declined to comment on
the incorrect use of the term "osmotic pressure" as a prime driving
force for sparging in previous contributions, but I guess it's
time if this idea is spreading. Osmotic force requires a
semi-permeable membrane across which this pressure can be
developed.  To my knowledge the significantly greater 

( if any at all) part of the wort is not held back by a semi-permeable
membrane.  Sparging is a diffusion and rinsing driven engine
and the most efficient method is to have high concentration sugar
diffuse into pure water. 


Continuous sparging in which the wort is not circulated, but
fresh water is continually applied at the top of the grain column is
the most efficient method.

This is a so-called "plug flow" for you Comical Engineers out there
as far as the rinsing goes, but is complicated by the fact that the
capillaries contain wort and must be emptied by diffusion.
Get your pencils and sliderules out!.
- -----------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:25:49 -0500
From: "Dulisse, Brian K [PRI]" <BDulisse at prius.jnj.com>
Subject: fuller's esb

i bought some fuller's the other day; noticed that the packaging was
different, but didn't think anything of it.  got it home, poured a
bottle and sipped - tasted different.  not bad, but different.  when i
was about halfway through, the glass, a thought occurred to me: this
bottle tasted very similar to what i remembered the domestic (i.e.,
english) version of the esb tasting like (as of 2 years ago, when i
visited the brewery, fullers was exporting a version to the states that
was brewed to a slightly higher og, with more ibu).  looking at the
packaging more closely, it now has a tiny blurb about "original version"
or something like that.  anybody else noticed this?  anyone have any
info?

bd in lovely central new jersey


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:17:00 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Antifreeze/Butter Pils

RE: the lady who tried poisoning her husband by putting antifreeze in
his beer: Ethylene glycol won't kill you. Its the oxalic acid it
oxidizes into that kills you (gets the kidneys). The enzyme that
catalyzes this oxidation is alcohol dehydrogenase. Thus a treatment for
ethylene glycol poisoning is a dose of ethanol which ties up the ADH
giving the body time to excrete the glycol as glycol. The message here
is that the wise man will always maintain a "prophylactic" titer of EtOH
in his bloodstream when changing the antifreeze.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Pat Babcock asked for suggestions on reducing the diacetyl character of
his Pils. First we need to note that diacetyl is an important part of
the character of the nominate species: Pilsner Urquel. I'd suggest
obtaining a few bottles of PU and doing a side-by-side comparison with
the home-brew. If the home-brew is no more diacetylish than the PU then
you'll know that the diacetyl is not excessive for the style although it
clearly is for your taste. Do this with some friends. Sensitivity to
diacetyl varies greatly among people. You may be unusually sensitive.

To lower the diacetyl level while keeping the same yeast strain and
grain bill try a shorter diacetyl rest at a higher temperature: say 1 -
2 days at 65 F,  followed by crash cooling. Another technique is to add
some kreusen beer at the end of fermentation. The idea here is to effect
diacetyl take-up by dosing with lots of very active yeast as contrasted
to the diacetyl rest where yeast activity is given a boost by raising
temperature. Each scheme has its downside. The higher temperatures of
the diacetyl rest can lead to ale like qualities so that you really
should experiment with a variety of rest times and temperatures until
you find the optimum. This is hard to do for the occasional home brewer.
The downside with kreusening is that you get young beer components
reintroduced at the end of fermentation. Lagering should deal with
those, however.

As has been posted here a thousand times diacetyl is a byproduct of
valine synthesis. Thus the extent of diacetyl is determined to some
extent by the amino acid profile of the malt and so the particular malt
chosen has an effect.  The yeast strain itself is probably the major
factor. (I still have an unconfirmed suspicion that PU's "secret" is
that one of the five yeast strains they supposedly used is a big
diacetyl producer.) So, obviously, I'd suggest trying again with a
different malt  and yeast strain. I use the DWC malts with Wyeast's
Czech Pils strain, don't do a diacetyl rest and don't find diacetyl
levels as high as I'd like them.

Finally, extended lagering cures almost everything but the resulting
beers, while extremely smooth and mellow, are often somewhat insipid.
This is why long (more than three months) lagering works best for beers
that are really loud to begin with (Festbiers, Bocks).



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:05:41 EST
From: RMerid7682 at aol.com
Subject: Boiling O2 caps

 bernie kb2ebe asks about boiling O2 barrier caps. As someone has already
posted, don't. One of the wholesale suppliers of homebrew supplies covered
this in their newsletter to their retailers about a year or so ago. They
recommended as first option a mixture of Sodium Metabisulphite Solution
at 2 oz per gal of water. Just a quick dip in solution and shake off excess 
and cap immediately. Second option was iodine solution such as Iodophor.
Same as before, quick dip, shake, and cap. The O2 barrier caps are 
activated by moisture and you lose all O2 protection with more than a quick
dip in sanitizer solution. They go on to mention ozygen based sanitizers, 
using one they market and say they are not recommended because the 
O2 scavenging agent will adhere to the released O2 from the hydrogen
peroxide and have very little left for the headspace in your bottles. They 
also state that the Metabisulphite is recommended by the manufacturer of
the O2 barrier crowns.

Roger Meridith 

 


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:26:38 -0500 (EST)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Re: Wyeast 3942

Well...
Why do you ask
What
Where
When
Wyeast



On 13 Feb 1998 EFOUCH at steelcase.com wrote:

> 
> Wyeast pronounce Wyeast?
> That wasn't too "scathing" was it?
> 
> Eric Fouch
> Bent Dick YoctoBrewery (Pronounced - "Eric's Basement")
> Kentwood MI
> efouch at steelcase.com


_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:58:02 -0800
From: "Greg Pickles" <gregp at wolfenet.com>
Subject: re: removing foil labels

In HBD 2638, Ray Estrella writes:

>I was wondering if any one has found an easy way to get
>the foil-type labels off of Sam Adams bottles.

I used to have a devil of a time getting these labels off until I stumbled
on this technique: I disolve about 3/4 cup of sodium carbonate in about 4
gallons of water in an old 5 gal pail. I then soak the bottles in this for
5-10 days (depending on the temperature and when I have time to get back to
them). After soaking the labels just slide right off. This works for most
labels but there are a few brewers that use a much tougher glue - I usually
just recycle those bottles instead of messing with them.

I seem to have an endless supply of bottles that need the labels removed
(all that research, y'know) so I just stick another batch in the pail when
one batch comes out. I find I can easily run 5 batches of bottles through
before replacing the solution.

BTW TSP works fine too (maybe a little faster) but sodium carbonate is
easier on your hands and the environment. Sodium carbonate is readily
available in most hardware and paint stores as "TSP substitute". You can
also find it in some markets as washing soda. 

Hope this helps.
Greg Pickles, Seattle WA



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Date: 16 Feb 1998 16:03:27 -0500
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: Extract advise


I am adding on to Charles Ehlers advise to making good extract beer.  He
mentioned adding ice to the wort to cool it down.  This is a method that I
would not personally recommend.  Funky things grow in the freezer and
contaminate the wort if you use ice.  If you are going to use ice, DO NOT USE
ICE CUBES.  Use a sanitized closed container and sterilized water.   Because I
am too lazy to make a wort chiller, I use an ice bath (snow works best if you
have some), and top off the wort to five gallons with 33 degree water, which
was stated in Charles' post. This will cool the wort for me in 15 min to a
half hour.

Jason Gorman
River Dog Brewery


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:57:17 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Mail order Companies & disaster averted

Like most, I'm always looking for ways to cut my costs. The 
obvious choice was to try ordering supplies mailorder. So, I 
located a shop with two locations in neighboring states.

I sent an initial inquiry to each regarding their pricing,
 shipping & handling costs, questions about grain crushing, etc. I
 also set each a 'test' order to see what the difference in price
 would actually amount to.

The company I chose was The Home Brewery. The Florida location
never replied. Not so much as a "thank you but we can't deal with
you", or "your test order is too much for us to handle. Send us a
real order.." etc. Nada, Zip.

The second location was out of Kentucky and apparently provide a
bad email address. I located the HB website and notified them by
email of the problem. Again silence. What's up with this company?

Has anyone dealt with HB and what kind of service did you get? 
With so much shady dealings on the Internet, I don't understand 
why I'm having so much trouble getting a civil reply out of them.

Regarding disaster: I recently bought a glass carboy at an antique
mall (7.5 Gal for $19.50). I checked it over pretty good before
buying and used it to brew some beer. 

Today was bottling day and I discovered a large crack in the base.
Much worse & I would have been cleaning up 6.5 gallons of beer
from the carpet! I currently have two large rope-handled 
containers, mostly used for cleanup. In the future they will hold 
my carboys until it's ready for the bottle. A word to the wise...



Mike (warner robins, ga)



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1987 13:54:26 -0800
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: Fw: Palexperiment - Update



- ----------
> From: Michel J. Brown <homemade at spiritone.com>
> To: rust1d at usa.net
> Subject: re: Palexperiment - Update
> Date: Monday, February 16, 1987 1:51 PM
> 
> >The brews will be entered into competitions and the resulting scores
will
> be
> >tabulated. In the aftermath, we should have a lot of data to mull over
and
> >from this we might be able to get some interesting statistics.
> 
> John, why don't we rate each others beer blindly, and submit the taste
test
> to the web page, and whoever gets the most points is the rank and file
> winner!?!?!? There won't be any contests around my neck of the woods
until
> the Rose Cup (Rose Festival is in June entries recieved by May), or the
> Oregon State Fair (entries recieved by July). We could send one or two
> bottles to each person on the list, and get each others beer to evaluate.
> We could have a blindly generated cap code that we'll use for
> identification by the web master/mistriss as we post our results. Forms
for
> evaluation are on the BJCP web page at http://www.bjcp.org (score
sheets).
> What do you think? Also, I'm still troubled by the hop bill -- I keep
> coming up with 63 IBU's acording to Tinseth's formulary :-/ Great for an
> IPA, not so good for an OPA (Oregon Pale Ale which is traditionally 75%
> BU:GU (bitterness to gravity ratio)). Where do you get your figures from
> John? TTYL, God Bless, ILBCNU!
> 
> 
>                 Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
> 		    2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
>                          homemade at spiritone.com
>               http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
>               "Big Man don't drink no stinking light beer!"
>                 "Big Man drink beer what got BIG TASTE!"
>                          Big Man Brewing (R) 1996
> 


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:10:53 -0500
From: ricjohnson at SURRY.NET
Subject: Mash efficiency

I am an extract brewer. Recently I have been evaluating some brewing
software. All the computations require mash efficiency. What should an
extract brewer enter for this?



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:22:10 -0800
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Foil Label Removal

In HBD 2638 Ray Estrella asks:

> I was wondering if any one has found an easy way to get the
>foil-type labels off of Sam Adams bottles.  I think that J.K. is getting
>back at us by making it impossible to clean the darn things off.  Any 
>advice?  (Besides not buying the product....)

I've had good luck putting warm water-filled bottles in a five gallon 
bucket, covering with warm water to above the neck labels, adding a couple 
of ounces of household ammonia, and slapping a lid on.  Come back the next 
day and take out the label-free bottles with rubber-gloved hands.  I use 
warm rather than hot water because the ammonia smell is even stronger with 
hot water.  Rinse well and wash before further use.  Make sure none of the 
foil flakes stick to the inside of the bottles.

It does my cheap soul good to reuse beer bottles beer, it peeves me that 
some of my favorite Pacific Northwest craft brews only come in screw-top 
bottles, such as Grant's and Redhook.  I seldom buy them now for that 
reason.  Sam Adams is pretty good beer, and brewed just down the road in 
Portland...


 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:11:49 -0800
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: re. Welding Copper to Stainless / KennyEddy

Hi Group,
I lost my hard drive last week (totally spontaneous) (except that its
Windows 95) and am trying to catch up.  

Someone asked how to weld copper to stainless.  To the best of my
knowledge, it can't be done.  Revereware and the like are made by Cladding
 - mechanically squeezing the metals together until they stick, or
electroplating.  You could braze the two together, or even solder the two
together (that's how I join copper fittings to stainless pipe) but it would
take a LOT of heat to do that to the full bottom of a kettle. You would
need to put the items in a brazing furnace rather than using a torch.  
**

Ken, I have tried responding to a couple of your posts, but I always
bounce.  The responder says that your mailbox is not accepting mail from my
address. ??

John Palmer
metallurgist and welding engineer
Monrovia CA




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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:36:04 -0800
From: "Alex Aaron" <aaaron at pacbell.net>
Subject: HB in Taiwan

To all,

To clarify my post. I live in Oceanside, CA. I just don't want to carry
equipment or ingredients in my baggage.

Thanks to All,

Alex Aaron - Oceanside, Ca
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/5125/index.html




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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:42:57 -0500
From: rdavis at gator.net (Dave Williams)
Subject: Sherry flavors

Greetings Brewers,

I opened a bottle of American Pale Ale last night that had been stored at
room temperature for about 7months after counter pressure bottling.  I had
saved this beer to compare with subsequent batches.  It had a distinct
sherry flavor so it was obviously a victim of oxidation somewhere along the
line.  Since I have a problem with procedure somewhere in my system, I'd
like to try to narrow down the probable cause.  

So my question is this; at what point in the brewing process is oxidation
most likely to create the aldehydes that are responsible for the sherry
flavor in my beer?  Is HSA the culprit or have I been reckless in my racking?  

This  problem has not reared its ugly head until now because I've stored all
of my beer in the fridge until it's consumed and none of it has lasted long
enough to become stale.  But I want to enter some competitions and I would
be mortified to recieve a judging sheet that recommends entering my brew in
a *wine* competition.  Which leads to my second question.  How long does it
take at room (or UPS truck) temperatures for a beer to develop the sherry
flavor thing?  I've got a German Pils lagering (almost done) that I wanted
to enter in a competition in May.  Will my beer be ruined by then (WMBBRBT)?

My grain bill for the Ale was 95% Briess 2-row and 5% domestic Crystal malt.
Hops were Willamette, Hallertaur, and Cascade.  Yeast was Wyeast 1056.  

Any insight would be apreciated and, of course, private e-mail is fine.

Cheers, 
Dave Williams
Newberry, Florida



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:55:55 -0600
From: "Wills, Frederick J (MED)" <Frederick.Wills at amermsx.med.ge.com>
Subject: Chloramine / Indoor Propane Use

"Martin Brown" asks:

<<Does anyone out there in HBD land know if chloramine will kill my
yeast,preventing fermentation?>>

Probably not.  But you will not like the taste that it will cause in
your finished beer.  Chlorine and Chloramine are the cause of many of
the plastic-like and band-aid like flavor and aroma flaws found in
homebrews.

The best way I've found to remove Chloramines from your brew water is to
pass any water that will be used in the brew through an active carbon
filter.  I have used a tap mounted Insta-pure brand filter (no
affiliation) with good success.  It will cost you around $25 for the
filter housing and 1st filter. The manufacturer recomends replacement of
the filter media after 3 months of use.  Replacement filters are pretty
cheap at ~3 for $12. 

Sorry for the delayed response, just catching up on Emails...

*************
Now for a question I have:

I continuously read about the inherent danger in using propane burners
indoors.  The gas being heavier tends to pool at floor level and can
then be ignited by an ignition source.  Boom.

This is obviously a scary scenario, and one to be avoided... but just
how real is this danger?

If this is such a dangerous situation, why do many people have bottled
LP gas (propane) delivered in large bottles or to tanks that remain
outdoors but the gas is then run into the house to fuel furnaces, cook
stoves and ovens as well as water heaters?  Wouldn't any of these
appliances be just as likely to malfunction with the same end result?
These appliances, unlike the typical homebrew burner, are usually left
unattended and would seem to present an even bigger hazard in that
regard.

I would think that the biggest chance for leakage would occur at the
appliance, not from the gas bottle.  Perhaps this is my
misunderstanding.  Would running a hard gas line from a bottle outside
to a homebrew burner used indoor be less risky?

Also, why wouldn't Natural Gas which is lighter than air tend to pool-up
at ceiling level and present the same hazard in reverse?  Especially in
winter months when houses are closed up tight and these heating
appliances are typically in use?



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:43:19 EST
From: OCaball299 at aol.com
Subject: Brunette

To the All-Knowing Collective,

First, and foremost, I would like to echo my fellow part-time lurkers in
thanking the collective for the constant enlightments in brewing and other
issues through this valuable medium.  Keep em comin.

Second, I have recently returned from a business trip to Germany where several
colleagues presented me with gifts... of the hopped and fermented
persuasion...Which I was able to bring back with me. Well, one of these little
beauties was a Belgian called Brunette which sits at 9% ABV.  After savoring
this malty brew I fell in lust with it, as I often do after partaking in most
European brews.  My plea to the collective is: has anyone else had this
pleasure, have you been able to concoct a recipe and how did it turn out?
FYI... I'm an extract/partial specialty grain brewer.  Due to the amount of
alcohol is this beauty, I would probably go for a 3 gallon batch.

I would be most appreciative to receive your recipes, thoughts, suggestions,
comments... and samples too...

TIA.

Omar Caballero - Aurora, IL
ocaball299 at aol.com

"Today is only yesterday's tomorrow" - Uriah Heep
So have another Homebrew!


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:46:21 -0700 (MST)
From: "Joe K. Chang" <jkchang at U.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: A wupass stout..

Fellow brew dudes....
   I need some help........  I'm wanna brew a wupass imperial stout, but
haven't been able to find a good extract recipe...  I am looking for
something in the 9-11% alcohol range and I am an extract brewer... i
know.. i'm still a wimp..  Please help!!!!!  private email is fine....  

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Joe Chang
University of Arizona
jkchang at u.arizona.edu  or
jkchang at engr.arizona.edu 
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
 



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:56:07 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Pale Ale experiment

I see one problem with John Varady's proposal for a pale ale experiment
(2/16/98 HBD): not everyone get's the same extraction efficiency.

>From what I've seen on the HBD, extraction rates for pale ale can range
from 25 to 35 pts./lb./gallon.  John's suggestion is that everyone use 10 #
grain and should shoot for 1.054 OG  at  5 gallons U.S.

If the original gravity rule is adhered to, there could be a large variance
in the total gallons brewed, which could affect the IBU's achieved from a
given hop charge.

If the 5 gallon rule is adhered to, there could be a large difference in
the original gravity of the beers, and obviously this would also affect the
flavor outcome.

I would second the suggestion that someone else made on the digest a while
back that the rules state the batch size and O.G., and it's brewers choice
to determine how much grain he/she uses to achieve those results.

Anyway, thats my $.02 U.S.  :^)

Randy Ricchi

Way Nort' in da U.P. of Michigan, eh!


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Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:46:37 -0000
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com>
Subject: GA (slightly technical, sorry)

Regarding gibberellins, Jason Henning says:
>I don't see anything that suggest germination uniformity. I think if
>gibberellic acid were use, the original poster would have had just as
=
>much
>endosperm length variance, just sooner.
>
>So, how much did I miss the boat by?

I don't think you missed the boat at all. GA will likely only
exaggerate unevenness between dormant and non-dormant grains.

Then Dave Burley adds:
>By reducing the dormancy of the barley, Gibberellic Acid
>improves the consistency of sprouting . . .

I know that Kunze says application of GA leads to "shortening of
dormancy" but there is very little evidence to support this position.
Dormancy is really not very well understood, much less the effect GA
has on it. But all the evidence I've seen shows no obvious correlation
between dormancy and GA. To eliminate unevenness of germination (isn't
that what we're after here?) I would again recommend an air rest
during the steep, and also using barley of just one variety and corns
of uniform size.

> . . .SInce it interferes with basic biochemical growth
>mechanisms, its effect is multiplied and it doesn't take
>much to be effective.

This seems a little too vague. The best model I've seen for the
biochemical mechanism of GA goes something like this:
GA is a hormone (specifically, it's a tricyclic diterpine) that
activates a complex receptor on DNA in the aleurone and "turns on" the
gene that codes for alpha-amylase. This gene then gets transcribed
into many copies of tRNA and each of these in turn is transcribed into
many more copies of mRNA which in turn provides the information to
synthesize many many more copies of the protein alpha-amylase. By this
mechanism one molecule of GA is responsible for the production of
thousands and thousands of enzyme molecules. That's why so little is
needed.
The problem is, if a grain is dormant, none of this can happen.
Dormancy has been partly attributed to increased levels of abscisic
acid (ABA) in the grain (as well as other not-so-well-understood
factors such as changes in the permeability of the pericarp and
possibly physiological changes in the aleurone). ABA causes the
synthesis of proteins that inhibit the polyadenylation of mRNA, and
since mRNA needs to be polyadenylated before it's transcribed into a
protein, the whole GA mechanism described above gets shut down before
any enzyme is synthesized. This is probably why there is no clear
correlation between addition of GA and elimination of dormancy.
Remember, this is just a model. I'm sure what actually happens is
infinitely more complex (for instance this model ignores the effect of
GA on protease and B-glucanase levels).

Regarding the safety of GA-treated products, I agree that it is widely
used and approved by all the appropriate agencies and is probably
completely safe. However, in the interest of consumer awareness I
thought I might mention that the fungi that are used to commercially
produce GA also produce not-insignificant levels of mycotoxins
(Deoxynivalenol can easily reach levels of 100 ppb). But if I were
worried about mycotoxins from GA-treated foodstuffs (which I'm not),
beer would be my last worry. Do you eat seedless grapes?

BTW, I must mention that a lot of my knowledge of GA comes by way of
Prof. Geoff Palmer, who has done a tremendous amount of work on GA and
its effects on barley.
- ----------------
Cheers,
Mort O'Sullivan
ICBD (Edinburgh, Scotland)
tarwater at brew-master.com



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