---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Victory-Hopdevil (Jon Ingram)
  Sucrose Alternative to Distilled Water (Duane Hale)
  Hop variety & diacetyl ("jpsully")
  Dammit, Jim... No YEE HAAA Jethro (ThE HoMeBrEw RaT)
  Palexperiment - Update (John Varady)
  Hallelujah!,Roasted Barley,Linguisticaly speaking ("David R. Burley")
  Soapy Taste ("Eric Schoville")
  Victory Beers (David Houseman)
  R.I.M. System ("James Johnson")
  opps (Jason Henning)
  Homebrewing in Taiwan ("Alex Aaron")
  yeast storage, stuck-on labels ("Ray Estrella")
  Submitted for your approval . . . (Matthew Arnold)
  Lite load ("Scott Church")
  Re: yeast storage/what is autolysis ("Steve Alexander")
  don't boil your O2 caps (AlannnnT)
  Beer Poisoning ("Eric Fouch")
  re: Wort aroma + boilovers ("C.D. Pritchard")
  re: mashout & extraction efficiency ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Gibberellic acid ("Dr. Dwight A Erickson")
  Re: mashout temps (Scott Murman)
  Buttered Pilsner... ("Robert J. Waddell")




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:29:12 -0500
From: Jon Ingram <jgi105 at psu.edu>
Subject: Victory-Hopdevil

After seeing the comments about Victory's Hopdevil I just had to add my
own. I am not usually an IPA drinker, I've always prefered darker beers.
However, this is one of the best beers I have ever had. I must also
recommend their Storm King Stout, It's a very Big Imperial Stout which is
also an excellent example of the style. I hope the guys at Victory keep on
brewing excellent beers.-Jon



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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:04:57 -0800
From: Duane Hale <dhale at gte.net>
Subject: Sucrose Alternative to Distilled Water

In reference to the "yeast storage in distilled water" thread, an
alternative method is to store the yeast in a 10% sucrose and water
solution (1.040 OG) that has been sterilized beforehand in a pressure
cooker as advocated in Pierre Rajotte's "First Steps in Yeast Culture:
Part One". Rajotte states that some of Hansen's (of Carlsberg fame)
cultures had been reanimated after 47 years of storage. Personally, I
have only attempted this on 1-year-old cultures, but they were revived
with no problems.
The way I do it is to pressure cook the 1.040 sucrose solution in test
tubes, vials, or any other small jars that are handy. Then, when I am
ready to start preparing my starter for the next brew, I take a swollen
Wyeast packet and following proper sanitation procedures, I inoculate
each sucrose tube with a needle full of yeast liquid. After all tubes
are inoculated, I dump the rest of the yeast packet in the starter flask
along with the starter wort. I label the tubes and store them in a cool,
dark place until I decide I want to use that particular yeast again. 
	The one problem that Rajotte and I have experienced with this method is
the evaporation of the water over time if the vials or test tubes don't
seal well, which supposedly causes damaging osmotic pressure changes on
the yeast cells. And, similar to the experiences of Steve Alexander
using the distilled water method, there are very few yeast cells that
survive, so it does take a few step-ups and time to get a good quantity
of yeast ready for pitching.
	Even with the minor problems of using this method, to me there is no
simpler, surer way to store many different kinds of yeast for extended
periods of time. IMO, the advantage of the sucrose solution over the
distilled water storage solution is that the yeast are kept in an
osmotic environment that is more like the one the yeast seem to be the
happiest in, beer. Another advantage of the table sugar method is that
the ingredients, tap water and sugar, are readily available in every
household.
	Of course, YM and preferences MV, but if it's good enough for Emil
Hansen, it's good enough for me.

Duane Hale
Fuzu's Fuzzy Fluxion Homebrewery
Lacey, WA


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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 08:54:10 PST
From: "jpsully" <jpsully at erols.com>
Subject: Hop variety & diacetyl

Hi all,

Please tell me if I'm misinformed. Is it true that some hops can lead to 
excess diacetyl in finished beer?

I was told, and am sceptical, that Saaz hops have been known to cause 
elevated levels of diacetyl in finished beer.  Now I do taste some in 
Urquell, but I assumed it was developed mostly from malt constituents and yeast
 strain which don't completley get rid of it.

I was told this by someone who is pretty knowledgable, but it doesn't 
sound right to me.  And even if true, wouldn't a diacetyl rest, a strong 
diacetyl chomping yeast strain, and low AAL levels effectively counteract 
it?

Please say it ain't so - I hate to hear a good hop maligned!

Joe Sullivan
Boston, Mass


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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:16:39 -0600
From: ThE HoMeBrEw RaT <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Dammit, Jim... No YEE HAAA Jethro

Lurk Mode off....

Mr. Moline Wrote:
 
>	Enter one beer...the HopDevil....cost, if last years prices
>remain....$105.......send no personell, hence no other costs....(like you
>won't be there anyway!)....
>	I will state this...I will personally buy the entry of this fine brew into
>the GABF this year if you will provide the keg, and get it to the
>distribution point. and send the bottles to the PPBT....
>	Thats my opinion of your beer...
>


It is times like this that I remember why for the most part I started
homebrewers and how much I enjoy being around them. 

Thanks Rob for making us all look good.

 -Scott

################################################################
#                     ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT                        #
#                Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>                 #
# http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page) #
#                                                              #
#                                                              #
# "The More I know About Beer, The More I Don't Need The AHA"  #
################################################################
 



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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:55:00 -0500
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Palexperiment - Update

The experiment has taken on a larger scope then I ever imagined, with over
40 people expressing an interest in participating. The gist is this: we all
use the same exact ingredients and follow our standard procedures to see
how the resulting beverage fares. A web page will be step up for us to
record our brewing session and any data relevant and worth collecting. The
brews will be entered into competitions and the resulting scores will be
tabulated. In the aftermath, we should have a lot of data to mull over and
from this we might be able to get some interesting statistics.

A questionnaire was sent and here are the results of the 36 returned:

1)  Should each brewer buy the ingredients local? NO 72%
2)  Should we use exactly the same amount of ingredients? YES 78%
3)  Should a third party be sought out to produce a "kit" that we each
    could purchase (hopefully at a reduced/special price)? YES 56%
4)  Should the grain be milled before shipping? YES 53%
5)  Should each type of malt be from the same maltster? YES 86%
6)  Should we use a Pale Ale malt? YES 86%
7)  Should we each use a single infusion mash  at  154F? YES 75%
8)  Should we mash for 90 minutes? YES 64%
9)  Should we boil the bittering hops for 90 minutes? NO 53%
10) Should we use Columbus hops for bittering? YES 94%
11) Should we change the 30 minute addition of Columbus to Cascade to 
    reduce the effects that a late of addition of such a high bittering
    hop can have? YES 58%
12) Should Irish Moss be optional? YES 61%
13) Should we use dry yeast to eliminate the need for a starter and the

    variances that can come with that? NO 56%
14) Should we use the same fermentation temperature? YES 61%
15) Should finings be allowed? YES 58%
16) Should filtering be allowed? NO 75%
17) Should we use the same method of carbonation? NO 67%
18) Should we all brew 5 gallon batches? YES 75%
19) Should we use only pellet hops? YES 53%
20) Should the grain bill be changed to 1 pound Crystal and 1 pound Munich 
    to simplify things? NO 56%
21) Should we use Wyeast 1056 to ferment? YES 81%

- ---

I was really hoping that more people would be willing to use dry yeast, but
that bug-a-boo will probably take some time to die. I really think we could
eliminate a lot of variance in the batches by pitching an equal amount of a
clean fermenting dry yeast like Nottingham from Danstar (hey, it was good
enough for my '98 barley wine). Fortunately the brewers participating are
fairly experienced (most over 2.5 years) and should be able to handle
starters. Wyeast also now has a larger smack pack available as well.

Even with the large number of participants, I will still do the necessary
procurement, packaging and shipping of supplies to each brewer (rather then
going to an external source). I figure the grains cost about $7.36 ($.70 x
8.2 + $.90 x 1 + $.90 x .8) and the hops about $1.80 ($.02 x 90 gm) for a
total of $9.16. Shipping from PA to CA is about $9 for 12 lbs via UPS
ground. I will send out email this week with more details to those involved.

An interesting suggestion by Jim Poder was to put together a box of various
ingredients and let the brewer build whatever beer they can from the
contents of said box. Maybe in the future this would be fun to try.

Specifics: The brewer will not stray from the supplied malt and hops. Each
will brew using their own procedures, water, and equipment. Grain will be
milled before shipping on a professional 6 roller mill. Mash temp will be
held as close as possible to 154F for 90 mins. Bittering hops will be
boiled for 75 mins. Final volume should be as close to 5 gallons as
possible. Fermentation will be with American Ale from Wyeast and should be
done as close to 65F as possible. The brewer may use irish moss and finings
but may not filter. Carbonation method is left up to the brewer.

**********************************************************
Name:   Palexperiment             O.G.: 1.054
Style:  American Pale Ale       I.B.U.:  39.2
Volume: 5.0 Gallons             A.B.V.:  5.2%

Grains/Fermentables      Lbs    Hops       AAU  Grams  Min
Pale Ale, American      8.20    Columbus  12.4  21.00   75
Crystal 40, American    1.00    Cascade    6.6  23.00   30
Munich, Belgian         0.80    Cascade    6.6  23.00   15
                                Cascade    6.6  23.00    0
Yeast: American Ale Wyeast 1056                          

Infusion Mash  at  154F for 90 mins. Ferment 62-65F.
**********************************************************
(ps - you weren't excluded gpeake at island.net, email sent bounced)

John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    ***> rust1d at usa.net




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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:43:35 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hallelujah!,Roasted Barley,Linguisticaly speaking

Brewsters:

Karl Lutzen - one of the two (hi Pat!) hard working and devoted
HBD Janitors says on the problem of corrupted format of HBD
submissions:

>......
>I've been searching for a filter that I could just snag and put in 
place,
>but every single one of them had certain limitations, plus other 

>non-desirable aspects.  So, I wrote one.... Dave Burley's and other 

>folks will see their posts in a different light.  


Thanks!!!  What a talented bunch of brewers!!!
- --------------------------------------------------
Hubert Hangofer asks about making roasted barley:

I have tried many different schemes over the years and they
all seemed to work OK, so you shouldn't worry too much.
Just watch and remove when the inside of the kernel looks
OK.   However, I must warn you that highly roasted
(i.e. black) barley as you might use in a stout will bring
about screams of "Feuer" from your significant other and
other members of the family as smoke billows forth from
the oven near the end. It is best to prepare this version
when everyone is out of the house and you can open the
windows. But it is worth it.

Maybe we can cajole another HBDer who related his
recent classic black malt roasting experiences to me, to share
them with the collective. Hmmmm?

Here's how I do it.  Also see Charlie Papazian's book
"New Joy ..."for some other methods. I now usually
dry the grain at 375 F (190C) for about 45 minutes.
You will begin to get a toasty aroma indicating the  grain
is dry.  Then treat the grain at a higher temperature while
you watch it carefully.

I go to the animal food store and buy the barley.  I know
this is not treated with fungicides etc, as seed barley
likely is. Just like coffee, use the grain shortly after you
roast it. Keep it tightly covered and mill it just before use.
 

Place 2# ( a kilo) on a baking sheet with turned up edges.

Roasted Barley

45 minutes at 375F (190C) then 30 minutes at 450F (232C)
until 10% of the grains' exterior are very dark and 10% are still light
brown.  You may wish to stir every 15 minutes or so and
turn the pan 180 degrees.

Toasted Barley

30 minutes at 375F and 30 minutes at 425F(218C)
until light reddish in color and nutty flavor

Black Barley

45 minutes at 375 and then 5 to 7 minutes at 500F (260C).
 The grains will begin to swell and smoke will begin to pour
off. Quench it with sprinkles or sprays of water and take it
outside to cool. Plan ahead.

Chocolate and Black Malts - Similar to above, just
remove the Chocolate earlier.

Amber malt 


Dry at 250F for 30 minutes and then heat to 325F for 20 -30
minutes until the malt is reddish inside and has a warm
biscuity flavor. 

- ------------------------------------
Eric Fouch asks a linguistic question:

>I have always pronounced Wyeast as Y-yeast how else do
>others pronounce it? "Y-east?"

I have always said "Y-Yeast".

>  Granted, "Wyeast" is
>harder to say than "Y-yeast".  How wide spread is this?
>Is this a Midwestern idiomatic speech

My father, born in SE Ohio a long time ago, said  " 'east "
for yeast. This was a pretty common pronunciation  I believe,
and especially among old time brewers.  He also called
cottage cheese "smear case"  (schmearkase) harkening
back to the German roots of the area, I believe. 


> deficiency, like saying "Youse guys"?  


Actually, I believe this is a Brooklun speech characteristic
 sounding like "yousss" and the Mid-westerners used to
say "yous" ( sounds like "yooze"), a much softer
pronounciation. And never said "guys" in this context
except to be funny, mimicking the East coasters..

My mother, was an elementary school teacher,and she
corrected a student who said "yous" in addressing
the class.

She told the student to say "you".

The student said, " But I was talking to *all* of them."
- ----------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: 14 Feb 98 12:22:12 -0800
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Soapy Taste

All,

My significant other says that she tastes a soapy flavor in some 
homebrew.  Upon tasting the beer myself, I can not detect any soapy 
flavor whatsoever.  Does anyone know what this flavor could be?  She 
must have a much lower flavor freshold than I do, to my benefit!

Thanks,

Eric Schoville in Flower Mound, TX


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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:36:42 -0500
From: David Houseman <dhousema at cccbi.chester.pa.us>
Subject: Victory Beers

Victory being our "local" I'm glad that Rob really likes Hopdevil.  I could
write "no afiliation" but I'm there too often and drink too much of their
beer to not be a loose afiliate.  Hopdevil is one of the beers that I buy in
bottle to keep at home even though I have my own homebrew on tap.  But this
year I have to say that the Old Horizonal Barleywine and the Storm King
Imperial Stout were even better IMHO than the Hopdevil.  And the Prima Pils
is certainly the flagship and a great example of the style.  Now I don't
like all of Victory's beers (no one can like everything) but I'd like to see
all four of these at the GABF -- four golds in one year by one brewery would
be a great sweep!

Dave Houseman
5.2 miles from Victory Brewing Co.



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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:49:56 -0500
From: "James Johnson" <JaScJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: R.I.M. System

I've been all grain brewing now for 1yr.
Have been thinking about using a R.I.M. system.
I've seen one adverticed by Advanced Brewing Technology about their system.
Has anyone used one.  What was the out come.  Would you recommend me buy
one.
email fine JaScJohnson at worldnet.att.net
Cheers, Scott Johnson


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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:33:46 GMT
From: huskers at olywa.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: opps

Boy, it's hard to get away with spreading misinformation around here!
The other day, I said 
+ Mary Ann Gruber of A-B compares floor malting

and Randy Lee <rjlee at imation.com> corrected me:

+ unless Mary Ann Gruber has changed jobs recently, she is with Briess
+ Malting not A-B...

Nice call and thanks Randy.

Cheers,
Jason Henning

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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:24:09 -0800
From: "Alex Aaron" <aaaron at pacbell.net>
Subject: Homebrewing in Taiwan

Hello to all,

I'll be making visits to Taiwan to see my in-laws, and was wondering about
the HB scene. If anyone has links or information regarding shops, clubs or
 ... let me know via private email. I'll post a summary.

Thanks to all,

Alex Aaron
alex at checkmaster.com
aaaron at pacbell.net
http://www.checkmaster.com/




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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:32:11 -0600
From: "Ray Estrella" <ray-estrella at email.msn.com>
Subject: yeast storage, stuck-on labels

  Hello to all,
Continuing with the distilled yeast topic, Steve Alexander writes,

>My concern is that I must step-up this culture repeatedly to get a
>healthy sized yeast crop.  Most of the yeast seem to die during storage.
>I should mention that I wash or separate the yeast using water before
>storage.  I have since read that this cleaning should be reserved
>until just before you wish revive the yeast.

  Steve is running into problems for a couple of reasons.  Sterile Distilled
Water Yeast Storage is meant to be used to keep a small, pure sample of
yeast.  I take one colony grown from a single yeast cell and store it in a
2-3 ml vial.  This is then used the same way that yeast stored on a slant is
used.  The point of the technique is to keep autolysis from taking place by
causing the yeast to go dormant immediately, before they have gone through
a major growth and feeding stage. (Fermentation)
  The reason most of your washed yeast seem to die during storage, is that
a good percentage was dead when you put them under water.  Another big
contributor is that this yeast has just finished an active life of
reproducing,
eating like crazy, (primary fermentation) getting starved as food supplies
get scarce, friends dropping all around, (secondary fermentation) and
finally
mutated by alcohol, a few hearty, thick-walled cells do what they must to
survive, exuding proteolytic enzymes to break down their neighbors, they
turn to
cannibalism. (Yeasty Donner party, your table is ready in the Burnt Rubber
room)
By trying to use washed yeast for long term storage you are almost
guaranteed
to have some autolysis already taking place.
  To just keep well washed yeast for a few weeks, this should be no problem.
Dave Burley told me that he keeps batch-sized amounts under water with good
results.  You may want to contact him about his procedures.

  On another note, I was wondering if any one has found an easy way to get
the
foil-type labels off of Sam Adams bottles.  I think that J.K. is getting
back at us
by making it impossible to clean the darn things off.  Any advice?  (Besides
not
buying the product....)

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

****** Never Relax, Constantly Worry....Have a better Homebrew ******










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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 03:27:09 GMT
From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Submitted for your approval . . .

I have added a nifty feature to my homebrew club's website which I think might
be useful to the collective. Using Ken Schwartz's all-grain calculations, I
have created two Javascript calculators. One will compute the temperature your
strike water should be to reach your desired mash-in temperature. The other
will calculate the amount of boiling water you need to raise your mash to the
next desired rest temperature.

Currently it only uses standard measurements (quarts, pounds, degrees
Fahrenheit). Once I figure a few things out, I will update it so you can choose
standard or metric figures.

The scripts work on Netscape Navigator version 3.x and up. They _should_ also
work in Internet Explorer 3.x and up, but I haven't been able to verify that
yet. To get directly to the calculators, go to
http://www.rackers.org/calcs.html

Let me know what you think!
  Matt, webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club (http://www.rackers.org)


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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:48:27 -0800
From: "Scott Church" <schurch at gte.net>
Subject: Lite load

I'm a new "home brewer" who is in a wheelchair and trying to devise a
system.  My approach right now is to make 5 gallon batches (extract), but
ferment in 2-1/2 gallon (more managable) containers.
I would like to start "all-grain" brewing. Would it be possible to do the
"mashing" and related processes using 2-1/2 gallons of water (for a 5
gallon batch). Is there a system that may be more condusive to my needs?
(consentrated wort?)

Also, is there any inequallities in spliting my wort? If so, is there a
method that I should use (other than eye balling) to consistently and
equally divide the wort?



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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 06:37:55 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: yeast storage/what is autolysis


Ray Estrella writes on my loss of viability of washed, water stored yeast
 ...

>  The reason most of your washed yeast seem to die during storage, is that
>a good percentage was dead when you put them under water.

Altho' it's certainly the case that washing is detrimental to the viability
of
cells in a yeast crop, it is also clearly the case that there is tremendous
cell
attrition during several months of water storage using my method.  I
commonly
wash and repitch yeast within a few days or even a few weeks and get good
results.  Storing the yeast treated identically under distilled water for
several
months gives a dramatically poor result.  Sorry Ray, but DOA isn't the
diagnosis.

>Another big
>contributor is that this yeast has just finished an active life of
reproducing,

>eating like crazy, (primary fermentation) getting starved as food supplies
>get scarce, friends dropping all around, (secondary fermentation) and
>finally
>mutated by alcohol, a few hearty, thick-walled cells do what they must to
>survive, exuding proteolytic enzymes to break down their neighbors, they
>turn to
>cannibalism. (Yeasty Donner party, your table is ready in the Burnt Rubber
>room)
>By trying to use washed yeast for long term storage you are almost
>guaranteed
>to have some autolysis already taking place.

I suspect that your argument regarding the state of cell reserves is close
to
the mark.  I'm less impressed with the rest of thwe argument.

If the cell failure mechanism is due to alcohol level rather than carbo
sources,
then cell wall sterol content not cell wall thickness is the issue.  My
feeling is
that in normal gravity beers, such as I have been brewing, the yeast become
dormant from lack of fermentable sugars not excessive alcohol levels.

Alcohol mutation - don't think so.  First I'm not aware that ethanol has
a mutagenic effect on yeast at the levels we are talking about - tho' it
clearly has a negative effect on cell function. As for the only surviving
yeast at the end of fermentation  being deviant - nonsense!  Historically
some breweries have repitched spent yeast for decades - perhaps
longer.  Second, the same yeast clearly seems to have higher viability
when stored under beer rather than water - tho' I haven't performed
a controlled test for this.

To get the sort of cell loss that I am seeing (90%+ est) would imply a
tremendous level of autolysis.  Frankly the 'classic' symptoms just aren't
there. Autolysis - I'm pretty wary of the explanation of autolysis that
appear in the HB literature.

M&BS says of autolysis -
The vacuole contains several lytic enzymes (including proteases, nucleases)
  bounded by a cell membrane which retains these enzymes.
Disintegration of the membrane is encouraged by high temps, alkaline pH,
  lack of nutrient, and and certain organic solvents (ethyl acetate,
chloroform)
  and the presence of zinc salts.
Autolysis of yeast in beer produces undesirable bitterness (yeast bite).
Fatty acids released during autolysis are foam (head) negative.

Note the lack of descriptions involving live yeast cells producing proteases
or sulphur/rubbery smells.  The description is that dead cells under
adverse condition burst their vacuole membrane, and the once contained
enzymes which were useful to the live cell some spilling out - releasing
bitter oily yeast innards into the beer.

Rubber-tire ale as the result of autolysis ? The tales are probably accurate
but misleading.  I suspect that the rubbery aromas are produced by a
secondary infection, probably bacterial and anaerobic, perhaps living on
the dying, lysing yeast cake.

As for the rumors of mutant killer yeast cells which can somehow exude cell
destroying enzymes, which magically do not destroy themselves - fairy
tales.  Eating the deceased and decaying is one thing; killing then eating
your
sleeping comrades is another.  Yeast may be cannibals, but I doubt that are
murderers.

My suspicion is that yeast health, and particularly the cell lipid/sterol
content
so important to (vacuole) membranes is critical to long term distilled water
storage.  My second suspicion is that the highly suboptimal pH of the
distilled
water storage may contribute to poor viability too, and explain the apparent
lower viability of my yeast in water rather than beer.  Interesting that
yeast
during active division may well have more of the lysozymic enzymes necessary
to cut thru cell walls (this 'zyme is used during cell division) - so it
*might* be
best to water store yeast during the stationary (non-growth) phase, but also
while the yeast retain high sterol & lipid levels.  A pH adjusted storaeg
should
help too.

Would be interesting to compare viability of beer, water, and acidified
water
storage of yeast at various growth phases.

Steve Alexander





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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 08:08:23 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: don't boil your O2 caps

bernie kb2ebe
Middleburgh,NY      Asks about boiling Oxygen Absorbing Crown Caps

Yes, they will be useless after one minute of boiling.

The following is my opinion only!---Don't spam me---- If you bottle condition
your beer [as many of us do],
the yeast will consume some part of the oxygen in the bottle. Fix says 30%. If
you bottle fill very close to the top and oxygen is less then 25% of air, plus
use the foaming technique the big brewers use, you will effectively eliminate
[reduce] much of the oxidation.
One note, I have found that bottles filled close to the top condition slower
than normal homebrew fill height. An extra few days should be needed.
You can create a little bit of foaming by using a faster filler, such as
Phil's or the new larger plastic filler made for wine bottle filling. Or raise
the bottling bucket a little bit. Remember, just a very tiny bit of foam is
enough to raise the foam to the cap. 

Alan Talman
East Northport, NY


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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:42:04 -0500
From: "Eric Fouch" <fouches at iserv.net>
Subject: Beer Poisoning

HBD-	
I just read an article in the Grand Rapids Free Press about a woman in
Bettendorf, Iowa who "has been accused of trying to poison her husband by
lacing his beer with antifreeze."
It seems like he should have noticed the extra body and flavor......	

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood MI
"The opinions expressed here are not necessarily those held by the rest of
the Bent Dick YoctoBrewery, and should not be construed as such." 



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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:09:40
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Wort aroma + boilovers

Phil Sides asked, "Do people REALLY dislike the smell of boiling wort?"  

Definitely- my better half and both kids hate the smell.  As for the wife-
the time I boiled wort over on her stove and saturated the guts thereof
with wort didn't help matters.  It was a concentrated wort and went from a
few simmering bubbles to a volcano in the 5 seconds my back was turned.
She had a smelly reminder of my misadventure every time she turned the oven
on since the wort got into the oven insulation.  I finally had to
disassemble the stove and replace all of the insulation- UGH!.  Lesson well
learned: never, ever turn your back on a concentrated wort which is
approaching the boiling point- particularly if it's on your wive's stove.


c.d. pritchard  cdp at chattanooga.net
http://home.chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:01:04
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: mashout & extraction efficiency

Domenick Venezia posted:

>...but we can't continue to stir the mash during the sparge.  BUT, we can
>increase agitation during the sparge without stirring!  ...I suggest that
>periodic recirulation during the sparge will increase your extraction
>efficiency.

I've not recicrulated while sparging- I SWAGed the highish concentration of
sugar in the recirc. wouldn't extract enough sugar to make the gain worth
the pain (i.e. not enough osmotic pressure).  Also *if* one wants to
maintain the temp. of the mash during a sparge using recirculation, you'll
need either a RIMS or some means of heating the recirc. if it's a nonRIMS
mash.  YMMV, but the later sounds like a PITA to me for the small gain in
efficiency.

Why can't (or shouldn't?) one stir during the sparge.  Seems to me like a
batch sparge and stirring the sparge water into the grains would help- e.g.
drain bed, add sparge water, stir, recirculate, and repeat.  For the last
cycle the recirc would also need to set the grain bed and clarify the wort.
 I plan on sticking an automated stirrer in my RIMS.  I'm gonna use it only
during the temp. boosts, but, it would at least seem to have some
application during sparging.  OTOH, Domenick makes a very valid point:

>I also suggest that using another pound or two of grain will make this
>whole discussion moot.


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:05:36 -0700
From: "Dr. Dwight A Erickson" <colvillechiro at plix.com>
Subject: Gibberellic acid

Brewsters,
In addition to being a homebrewer, I also do a lot of "organic
gardening" and have used gibberellic acid in my garden (also
houseplants). I think that using gibberellic acid to help sprout
barley could be useful.
Gibberellic acid is not (to my knowledge) actually a hormone, but it
"acts like" a hormone. It is used in extremely low concentrations. If
you spray it on a blooming houseplant, it will make the plant bloom
more - earlier - have larger blossoms - grow better etc. In the
garden, I use it on seedless grapes to make them bigger. The reason ?
:
1. The grape blossoms are pollinated.
2. The seed (embryo) is begun
3. The embryo is aborted (sorry right to lifers)
4. The grape grows and matures.
By spraying gibberellic acid on the grapes (three times at two week
intervals) makes the grape think that the seeds are actually growing
inside the fruit, so the seedless grapes grow larger (they think the
seeds are still in there). Normally, seedless grapes are quite a bit
smaller than seeded ones, but by spraying them with gibberellic acid,
you can get them almost to the size of seeded ones.
I imagine that this "hormone effect" would be responsible for better
and a more even rate of germination.



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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:43:45 -0800
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: mashout temps 


Steve Alexander. asks
> >It's no coincidence that the recommended mashout temp. is the maximum
> >before tannoid extraction becomes a problem.
> 
> If you have a source on this I'd really like to see it.  I've searched
> high and low and have yet to find any critical temperature for phenol
> extraction. As a rule, increasing mash temps will permit more phenol
> extraction and better solubility of some of the naughtier phenols.

It'd be impossible for me to remember exactly where that tidbit came
from, but before you posted I thought it had come from you (Steve).
How 'bout we just say it's true, and keep repeating it until it takes
on a momentum of its own?  Within the year we can see it mentioned in
print.  The key variable is obviously pH, and I'm sure temperature is
secondary (or tertiary).

Regarding the use of a mashout and efficiency thread which had been
going on.  George de Piro privately emailed me that at Seibel they
were told it was possible to get "up to 10%" an increase in efficiency
by mashing out.  One aspect of the mashout which I had been neglecting
is what George referred to as "late saccarification".  By raising the
mash temp., some of the remaining starch gelatinizes (explodes), and
the alpha amylase which is still lying around can then chew it up.  I
suppose this, combined with the improved fluid properties from a
higher temperature could achieve a measurable increase in efficiency
for homebrew-type systems.  It would depend somewhat on how much of a
temperature change occurs during the mashout (150-170F vs. 155-165F
for instance).  I still believe that mixing helps, but it sounds like
most folks are already mixing like crazy in one way or another.

Scott


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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:32:49 -0700
From: "Robert J. Waddell" <rjw at dimensional.com>
Subject: Buttered Pilsner...

Greetings fellow brewfolk,

I've just started brewing lagers, and so far every one of them (4 now)
has had a serious diacetyl problem.  The most recent recipe is the
"High Test" by George Fix from the little booklet of recipes that comes
with a subscription to BT.  If you don't have it, it goes like this:

For 10 gallons:
18 lb. Durst pils
 4 lb. DWC Munich

2 oz. Ultra, and 1 oz. Saaz, First Wort Hopped together & removed just
before reaching boil.
2.5 oz. Spalt, and 2.5 oz. Hallertau, both for 60 minutes.

Mash in at 122 F. 30 min., 140 F. for 30 minutes, 156 F. for 30 minutes,
mashout at 170 F. for 15 minutes. (Iodine test was negative)

Oxygenated with O2 and scintered airstone.  Fermented at 46 F.  Raised
to 58 F. for 5 days.  Lowered to 34 F. (4 F. per day).  Lagered at 34 F.
for 6 weeks.  I used the White Labs Pilsner  at  2 tubes per 5 gallons.
OG: 1.059, FG: 1.012

The first time I made this I racked of the trub, and racked into a
secondary after 2 weeks.  It reeked of butter.  A friend that has
been very successful with lagers said that I should leave the trub
and not rack to a secondary, so that is what I tried this time.  It
still tastes like a movie theater smells.  I love diacetyl in an ale,
but this is totally out of style in a pils.

I just kegged it yesterday.  Will further lagering cure this?  Is there
anything I can do next time to prevent this "Orvil Redenbacher" effect?
I was really looking forward to brewing this style, but I'm starting to
lose my enthusiasm for it.

rjw
                      I *L*O*V*E* my [Pico] system.  'Cept for that
                      gonging noise it makes when my wife throws it
                      off the bed at night.
                      Women...
                                         --Pat Babcock

          *** It's never too late to have a happy childhood!  ***
********************************************************************
RJW at dimensional.com      / Opinions expressed are usually my own but
Robert J. Waddell       / perhaps shared.     ICQ #7136012
Owner & Brewmaster: Barchenspeider Brew-Haus   Longmont, Colorado
********************************************************************
                    (4,592 feet higher than Jeff Renner)


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