---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Isoelectric Points (AJ)
  5L Party Kegs ("Gregg Soh")
  autolyzed yeast (Christopher Niehaus)
  Plural of "You." (Dan Cole)
  Re: Homebrew and Flatulance ("Charles L. Ehlers")
  "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberri ("Tony Quinn")
  activated carbon filters (Louis Gordon)
  Heater Elements / SRM vs Homebrew Color Units (KennyEddy)
  Staged Infusions,engineers being chemists and v/v, ("David R. Burley")
  Culturing Yeast from Speculation Ale (Wayne_Kozun)
  Re: metric system (Jeff Renner)
  Estimating Beer Color (Kyle Druey)
  mini keg problems (Headduck)
  RE: SRM colors in your computer (Tim Burkhart)
  hot plates/metric/mini kegs/plastic primary/why we brew/mold/flatulence (Samuel Mize)
  Why no Aluminum in Commercial Brewing? ("David J. Vanness")
  A little more protein (AJ)
  pickles (Samuel Mize)
  Why aluminum isn't used commercially (Samuel Mize)
  240V danger (John Wilkinson)
  Re: Mash water calculations ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  Short lager times ("Jim Busch")
  James Page Iron Range Amber Lager??? (Jim Anderson)
  Re: white spots ("Robert J. Waddell")
  Multi-Part Mime ("Pat Babcock")
  metric and party pigs (Kevin TenBrink)
  FW: Beer Primary ("Michael E. Dingas")




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:01:40 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Isoelectric Points

George dePiro asked about pH effects in the boil. It is well known that
kettle pH does have an effect on protein coagulation. I'm working from
admitidly shaky memory but as I recall from M&BS coagulation improves as
pH decreases to around 5.0 and then gets worse as pH decreases further
thus 5.0 (or maybe 5.1?) is optimum from the protein coagulation point
of view. The job of trying to determine pI's for various proteins could,
I assume, only be easily determined by experiment since the pI depends
on the actual amino acids in the prtotein, or at least in the amounts of
aspartic acid, glutamic acid, histidine, lysine and arginine as the
first two of these tend to be negatively charged at kettle pH's and the
latter  to be positively charged. An amino acid looks like:

R(CH)(NH3+)(COO-)

at wort pH with the R determining which amino acid it is. There are two
centers of acidity: The NH3+ group can give up a proton to become NH2
and the COO- group can take on a proton to become COOH. Given a number
of amino acid molecules half of them are in the COO- state and half in
the COOH state at  pH's  about 2.2 depending on which acid it is.
Similarly, at pH's around 9.6 half the molecules are in the NH3+ state
and half NH2. In a protein these groups form the peptide bond and do not
contribuite to the charge (except for the terminal ones). A protein
looks like:

(NH3+)(CH)R1(CONH)(CH)R2(CONH)(CH)R3.....(CONH)(CH)Ri(COO-)

 ^N
terminal
^C Terminal

R1, R2, R3...Ri are the sidegroups which depend on which amino acids are
linked to form the protein. In the five acids mentioned earlier the R
groups can release protons and contribute to the charge of the protein
at wort pH. Half of a particular group which can release a proton does
so when the pH is equal to the pK for the group. For aspartic and
glutamic acids the R groups contain COO-/COOH and the pK's are,
respectively 3.86 and 4.25.  For lysine, arginine and histidine the
proton supplying groups are, respectively, NH3+/NH2, NH2+/NH and NH+/N
groups which supply protons. The pK's are, respectively, 10.53,12.48 and
6.0.

If the wort pH is less than the pK for a particular R, fewer than half
of the R's of that type release protons. If the wort pH is greater, more
than half do. At pH around 5 pH is greater than pK for Asp and Glu so
the majority of R's are ionized and there is a preponderance of negative
charge on these R groups. For Lys, Arg and His pH is less than pK, most
of the groups have not released their protons and thus these groups are
predominantly positively charged. If we define r = 10^(pH - pK) the
fraction of groups of a particular type ionized is f = r/(1+r). Thus for
Asp and Glu we could say that the charge from a single group is -r/(1+r)
because the ionized COO- is negatively charged. There can't, of course,
really be a fractional charge. The actual charge is n*f where n is a
very large number of R groups but the device of using fractions makes it
easier to see what's going on.

For Lys, Arg and His the fraction of groups which release a proton is
also r/(1+r) but now the charge is  +(1 - r/(1+r)) because when a group
releases a proton it looses its charge and the charge is  thus plus the
fraction of groups which  _don't_  give up a proton.

The net fractional charge on a protein is thus:

(Fractional charge on C terminal) + (fractional charge on N terminal) +
(number of R1 side groups)(fractional charge on R1 group) + (number of
R2 side groups)(fractional charge on R2 group) + ...

The isoelectric point (pI) of a protein is the pH at which the net
charge is 0. The pI depends, in a large protein, mostly on the R groups
and not on the terminal groups. The pI is the pH which zeroes the net
charge. A couple of examples:

Ala-Asp-Glu-Lys-Arg-His-Leu would have a pI of about 7.75.

Ala-Asp-Glu-Ser-His-Glu-His-Leu  would have a pI of about 4.4.

A change of 0.1 pH in the latter case changes the cahrge by about 0.15
unit.

A low pI implies a preponderance of Asp and Glu relative to Lys, Arg and
His. The converse is also true. Thus we conclude that wort proteins,
which apparently have pI's near 5 have lots of Asp and Glu.

If anyone wants to play around with this here are some pK's for a few
amino acids. These are from Lehninger's "Biochemistry" (I do have that
handy - no way this stuff is from memory!)

                          pK1    pK2      pR     (pK1+pK2)/2     pI
Glycine             2.34     9.6                      5.97
5.97
Alanine             2.34     9.69                    6.015         6.015

Leucine             2.36     9.6                      5.98
5.98
Serine               2.21     9.15                    5.68
5.68
Threonine         2.63    10.43                   6.53           6.53
Glutamine         2.17     9.13                    5.65           5.65

Aspartic Acid    2.09     9.82      3.86      5.955          2.975
Glutamic Acid   2.19     9.67     4.25       5.93           3.22

Histidine           1.82     9.17     6.00       5.495         7.585
Cysteine            1.71   10.78     8.33       6.245         5.1
Tyrosine            2.2       9.11   10.07      5.655         5.655
Lysine               2.18     8.95   10.53       5.565         9.74
Arginine            2.17     9.04   12.48       5.605       10.76




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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:30:16 PST
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: 5L Party Kegs

Seeing as how there has been interest in the party keg system and 
wanting to know more about it myself, here are some questions of my own. 
First, almost all who've used them or sell them say that they cannot be 
force carbonated using the "carbonator" and a cylinder. I suspect so 
too. However, I've noticed that St.Patrick's of Texas advertises the 
party keg with suggestions that they may either be carbonated using 
priming sugar(less of course) or a co2 cylinder. Do they know something 
we don't? Secondly, I was wondering if the taps can be removed mid-keg, 
without finishing so that you can tap a different keg and return later.

Another question I have is about pH. The figures that are recommended 
for mashing and later for sparging and runoff, what temperature is this 
at? Wouldn't it be a little difficult to get an accurate value at the 
temperatures we are employing? It would seem the best way would be to 
use something that has automatic temperature compensation. Or are the 
chemicals that indicate the colour in our pH paper in a reversible 
reaction so that they will display the right pH when the test sample is 
cooled?

Thanks,
Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 01:23:33 -0800
From: Christopher Niehaus <critters at cosmoslink.net>
Subject: autolyzed yeast

In the list of ingredients for my Hormel Chili, the third from the last
ingredient was "autolyzed yeast". Say what? Why? Anybody have a clue as to
what purpose this is serving?

I know this is not directly related to brewing but it was the first time I
remember seeing this as a food ingredient.

Chris
critters at cosmoslink.net



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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 05:38:15 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Plural of "You."

If you'll allow a southern boy to comment on the "youse" thread, the plural
of "You" is not "Youse"; it is "Ya'll."

Sorry for the off-beer post, but I couldn't resist.

Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA



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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:38:36 -0600
From: "Charles L. Ehlers" <clehlers at flinthills.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew and Flatulance

<<Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:41:57 -0500
From: Wayne_Kozun at otpp.com
Subject: Homebrew and Flatulence

Has anybody else noticed the correlation between drinking homebrew and
flatulence, or is this something that only affects me.  I notice that after
drinking two or three homebrews some very noxious gasses start vacating my
body causing my wife to threaten to not allow me to drink my own homebrew.
Do other people have this problem?>>

Wayne,
  I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of us experience an above average
level of noxious gas production, to one extent or another.  I've had some
homebrews that were benign, and others that produced some pretty malevolent
vapors.
  Commercial beers will do it also.   Way back, before I even knew about
homebrewing, I developed a taste for Rolling Rock.  I bought one case, and
that was it.  My wife wouldn't let me buy it again.  That was years ago and
almost forgotten.  Just a couple days ago, my neighbor's wife was
complaining that her husband had bought some Rolling Rock.  "He's just
terrible in the morning after drinking that stuff!"  Maybe it's the DMS?
  What you eat also makes a difference (duh!!)  Pizza and beer affects many.
However, separate the two and there may not be anything.
  No doubt we have one or two doctors out there who can explain how this all
happens.
Charles



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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:52:30 +0000
From: "Tony Quinn" <aquinn at postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Subject: "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberri

Wayne mentioned
 
>  I notice that after  drinking two or three homebrews some very noxious gasses
>  start vacating my body causing my wife to threaten to not allow me to drink 
>  my own homebrew.

To paraphrase the Monty Python holy graille skit, try not to fart in 
her general direction.


Tony Quinn AQuinn at worldnet.att.net

The More Beer I Know About, The More I Realize 
That I Need More Beer! <or something like that>




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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:21:21 -0800
From: Louis Gordon <lgordon at pclink.com>
Subject: activated carbon filters

If I use an activated carbon filter to remove chloramines, will it also
remove minerals that I need to be adding back with brewing salts.

Louis Gordon      Minneapolis



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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:23:43 EST
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Heater Elements / SRM vs Homebrew Color Units

Ken Sullivan wrote:

  I found some water heater elements at Home Depot for $10.50 each so 
  I bought a long one at 4500W/240VAC and a short one at 1500W/240VAC.
  I have a 24" x 2" copper pipe and am thinking about putting 'Tees'
  on both ends and inserting both heater elements on opposite ends.
  That way I can turn on one, the other or both.  Questions: Should I
  run these at 120VAC to cut the wattage in half?  What other problems can
  you experienced RIMSers forsee?

Running a load on half the voltage QUARTERS the power since power relates to
teh square of the voltage (Power = Voltage-Squared / Resistance).  See my
electric brewery on web page.

*****

Carl Shipman talks about recipe colr.  I was recently researching the
divergence of SRM vs "homebrew color units" (grain color x weight / gallon)
and present the following table.

Mosher ("Brewer's Comapnaion") and Daniels ("Designing Great Beers") have
presented rough guides to determine the HCU color required to approximate a
given SRM value.  Their data do not match exactly, but I would lean towards
Daniels' figures since he is much more specific about the contribution of
process variation.  Daniels supplies a graph of the data used to develop the
table, and that graph shows a widely-scatterred pattern which makes and exact
comparison impossible.  However, a rough conversion table is given here to
figure approximately what your HCU should be to hit a target SRM figure.  I've
also included some commercial beers and their SRM colors for reference.  The
Mosher data is given in "HCU" units while Daniels uses the term "MCU" (malt
color units).  Both units are calculated using malt weights, color, and batch
volume as described above.

SRM	MCU	HCU	Color			Commercial Example (SRM Color)
1-10	1-10	1-16	Pale to L. Amber		Bud (2), Molson Export (4), Bass (10)
8-12	11-20	12-20	Amber to D. Amber
11-15	21-30	19-25	D. Amber to Copper
14-17	31-40	24-30	Copper			Michelob Dark (17)
17-20	41-50	29-38	L. Brown to Brown
20-30	50-85	38-46	Brown to Black		Salvator (21)
>30	>85	>60	Opaque			Most Stouts and Porters

*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:19:00 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Staged Infusions,engineers being chemists and v/v,

Brewsters:

Lars Bjornstad complains that the programs available for
calculating a second addition of water to a staged infusion
is always low.

Is it possible that you are not taking into account the fact that
you have to heat up the water added in the first infusion as
well as the grain??
- -----------------------------------------------
Lou Heavner says:
 

> Oh Dave, just stab me in the heart!  If you had seen some of the 

> scale-up work done by chemists that I have seen, you might think 

>chemists were comics... in a kind hearted way, of course!  ;)
     

Hmmm.  Yeah I'll agree to that, but then I remember that
continuous process designed and constructed by some
engineers playing process chemist developed.  It was
continuous at the beginning, stopped for a claving and then
became continuous again.

I called it a continuous process by jerks. It never worked
successfully.

I also remember a new plant designed such that the reactors
couldn't be cleaned behind and no way of delivering material
to the second floor was possible without an outside crane.

Lou also says:
> I suspect that the whole sparging process is more like baffled 

> convective flow than any other model proposed. 


Convective flow is concentration/thermal gradient driven.I
guess I don't understand your model.

I think of it as a plug flow model driven by gravity with a
diffusion from capillaries.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
All this English/Metric discussion reminds me that when
I lived in Great Britain for a couple of years, they changed
over to decimal currency. I remember standing in front of
Marks and Sparks  department store explaining
to this old dear ( while recognizing the irony of it all) how
to convert back to pounds,shillings and pence!
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:43:20 -0500
From: Wayne_Kozun at otpp.com
Subject: Culturing Yeast from Speculation Ale


I just bought a beer called Speculation Ale brewed by the Wessex Craft
Brewery Co-operative (in the UK) which is bottle conditioned.  Has anyone
else tried to harvest the yeast from this beer?  I tried to get the yeast
kick-started in the usual manner (ie. adding some sterile wort), but
nothing seems to be happening.  I've got another bottle so I will try
again, but I am wondering if anyone else has attempted to harvest these
yeast, or find out why type of yeast it is?




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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:59:17 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: metric system

In HBD #2642 jim english <jim.english at mindspring.com> wrote:

>the origins of the metric
>system (i.e. Napoleon Bonaparte....) date from the very end
>of the 18th century themselves.

You can't get away with nothin' around here.  The ex-history teacher here
(as well as English, biology, etc.) will call you on details.  The metric
system was a revolutionary adoption, not Napoleonic one.  In 1790, the
National Assembly of France requested the National Academy of Sciences to
develop a standard system of weights and measures.  In 1795, France adopted
the metric system, but allowed other units to be used (they were outlawed
in 1840).  Napoleon seized power of France in 1799 (he had been military
leader up until then).

In 1790, Thomas Jefferson recommended to Congress that the US adopt a
decimal system of measurement; Congress rejected it.  In 1821 John Quincy
Adams, then Secretary of State, proposed US conversion to metric.  Congress
again rejected the proposal.  In 1866, the metric system was made legal in
the US, but was not required.  There were several failed attempts in
Congress during the 1890's to change the US to metrics.  We're stubborn,
ain't we?  In 1971, a *three year* congressional study recommended that the
US make a planned conversion.  In 1975, Congress boldly passed the Metric
Conversion Act, which calls for a voluntary changeover, resulting in the
blinding changes we've all witnessed.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:03:36 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Estimating Beer Color

Brew Dudes:

Using the color palette from a spreadsheet is a clever way to estimate
beer color and catalog the final beer color for each brew.  Good work
Carl Shipman.

Another method to estimate beer color is the use of an equation I found
in the Brewery that determines final beer color based on the number of
malt color units (MCU):

Final Beer Color (degrees L) = 1.49 * (MCU)^0.69

The little carrot top thingy (^) is an exponent, just so the
mathematically challenged folks like myself understand.  Any $5
scientific calculator can handle this beast of an equation, very simple
to use.  I have found it to be fairly accurate when using the Davison
Color guide as a baseline.  Usually can hit the design color within +/-
2 degrees Lovibond.  Here's an example using the upcoming Palexperiment:

5 Gallons
US Pale Ale Malt 3 L:   (8.2 lbs X 3 L) / 5   = 4.9 MCU
Crystal 40 L:           (1.0 lb  X 40 L) / 5  = 8.0 MCU
DWC Munich 8 L:         (0.8 lbs X 8 L) / 5   = 1.3 MCU
- ------------                                   --------
total Malt Color Units                         14.2 MCU

Beer Color (deg L) = 1.49 x (14.2)^0.69 = 9.3 L

(Palexperimenters:  This is why I wanted to keep the chocolate malt in
the experiment, if 1/2% chocolate is used the final beer color is about
14, not to mention the yummy flavor addition).  Now, before I get
lectured by the HBD xpurtz I need to point out that there are many
variables that contribute to the final beer color, particularly in the
range from 1 L to 10 L.  However, using the above equation has provided
me with very good estimates.  Another fine point to the above equation
is that it seems to be more accurate when the MCUs are greater than 5,
i.e. the final beer color will equal the MCUs for any beer with a total
MCU of 5 or less.

Noonan lists some MCU and beer color data in his revised book, New
Brewing Lager Beer.  I did an exponential curve fit for this data and
found it to be much different than the Brewery's equation.  Decide for
yourself, perhaps his numbers will work better with your system.

Of course, the standard disclaimer applies, YMMV.

Sure am enjoying George DPs short courses on brewing topics.  Keep
reading that German brewing text George, and keep the posts coming!

Kyle Druey
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:03:38 EST
From: Headduck at aol.com
Subject: mini keg problems



Jim Graham writes (in part):

"After a while, however, I started noticing that the CO2 cartridges would
go flat after about two days...and less than one keg tapped.  Then two
days became one day.  Eventually, it became a few minutes.

At the same time, I started noticing that my beers were starting to come
out flat when the keg was first tapped.  I noticed, in some kegs, leakage
around the bung (no visible damage to the keg---it just leaked)."

Jim, it sounds like you have a broken dip tube.  Sometimes it is not very
obvious when looking at the tube, but if you flex it you will probably see a
hairline crack near the collar that is located just below the threads.  I have
been able to get replacement tubes for around 5 bucks at the local brew shops.

I'm not trying to talk you out of going to cornie kegs.  I will probably move
to that system soon, too.  Many of your complaints about the mini-keg system
are valid, but I think that if you replace the diptube you will have better
luck.

Hope this helps,
Joe Yoder




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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:38:32 +0000
From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: RE: SRM colors in your computer

Thought I would post this so everyone could have a go at me if I'm wrong.
>>It may be practical to create on a spreadsheet a range of colors that
approximate the SRM scale 
>>Major variables will be monitor brightness and contrast settings.
Carl has a good idea, but unfortunately there are many more variables than
brightness and contrast. Platform (Win, Mac, Unix) all use system color in
different ways. Each monitor type, from each year, or even month available
on the market has different drivers, dot pitch, etc... that affect how it
represents color.
Monitor color inconsistancies plague everyone who designs for the web. That
great amber-gold that I tweak until perfect on my system will appear
anywhere from green-brown to red-brown on any other monitor in the world.
Monitors are back lit however, which could correlate to holding a glass up
to the light to judge color.  Bring LCD monitors into the mix and you've got
another problem.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but thought you might want to know.
It's a creative idea, and if it works for you, do it!
Tim Burkhart
Kansas City
mailto:tburkhart at dridesign.com


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:55:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: hot plates/metric/mini kegs/plastic primary/why we brew/mold/flatulence

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> HOMEBREW Digest #2642               Fri 20 February 1998

> From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
> Subject: Hot Plate Details / Aluminum

>I estimated the power
> applied to the wort to be 1600 W, about half of theoretical.
 ...
>As it turns out, aluminum conducts heat something
> like 5 times better than stainless steel,

I suspect a lot of your heat is conducting through the aluminum sides
of your pot and radiating off.  You might hang foil around the sides
of the pot to reflect it back, or otherwise insulate it.  Check the
archives, I think this has been discussed pretty thoroughly before.
BE CAREFUL -- foil can burn, and I think those hot-plate burners could
ignite it.

Also, it's probably boiling out the top.  Cover partially to reduce
heat loss, don't cover completely so DMS can escape.

> Conduction - ... Is there a way to reduce this by sitting the drip
> pans on some insulation?

Are the drip pans in contact with the boxes all around their perimeters?
You'd reduce conduction by mounting them on three or four bolts with
metal spacers, to reduce the contact.

> Convection - I don't think this is much of a problem.  Perhaps I will
> install some type of metal skirt around the sides of the burner
> footprint
> to minimize losses here.

I have read (here, I think) that electric burner elements are designed
to cool themselves by convection.  If you keep them in a dead air space,
you'll reduce their useful life.

 - - - - -
> From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
> Subject: My metric comments!

> Just a thought, if you were doing a German beer recipe, would you
> have to use metric units, so that you wouldn't
> breach the Reinheitsgebot?

No, the Reinheitsgebot predated the metric system.  You would have to
use metric units if you were brewing a French beer, to avoid a breach
of the Code Napoleon.  (Vive la France!  Vive la biere!  Vive la
Legion Etrangere!)

 - - - - -
> From: "Mike Piersimoni" <msp at dplus.net>
> Subject: MIni Kegs

> I recently purchased a mini keg system.
 ...
> The shop I purchased the system from told me that the carbonation would
> be at least as much as the bottles.
> I have not found that to be.
> The precribed amount is 1/3 cup corn sugar in a 5 gal batch.

The shop is in error.  You should be getting about as much carbonation as
if you had bottled with 1/3 cup corn sugar.

I don't suggest you increase the sugar.  From what I've seen on the net,
if you try to carbonate these mini-kegs to more typical pressures, they
start leaking.

These kegs seem to be good for lower-carbonation styles.  if you like such
styles ("real ale", for instance) they work OK.  They appear to work OK
for commercial distribution of higher-pressure styles, but in this usage
they are filled using commercial equipment and used only once.

 - - - - -
> From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
> Subject: Beer Primary "William Warren"  2/19/98

> Don't use it, lessn' of course you want pickle tastin' beer.  Get a new
> clean one and even then you should probably retire plastic fermenters
> every 5-10 batches

Many people use these buckets for years with no problem.  If you clean
and sanitize thoroughly, you will have no problem.  If you don't, you
may have problems, no matter what equipment you use.

Food aromas don't seem to transfer readily.  If you bleach it and/or
hit it with strong ultraviolet (sunlight) for a couple of days, you won't
get pickle beer.  You might start with a weak/light test batch just to
see if any taste transfers.

 - - - - -
> From: Steve <JOHNSONS at uansv5.Vanderbilt.Edu>
> Subject: Homebrewing & Individuals with physical limitations

> In addition to the excellent post on Wheelchair brewing in recent HBD, there
> was also a feature on 2 homebrewers who refuse to let physical limitations
> prohibit their brewing in Zymurgy 1996 special issue Vol. 19 #4 titled
> "Why We Brew".

MY DROKK!!!!!  Someone with a kind word about the "Why We Brew" issue!!!!!!

 - - - - -
> From: "Milo" <pigsnzen at ntr.net>
> Subject: First Timer Question

> I've been lazy & let it sit in the secondary for ~6 weeks.
> 
> Now small white dots are floating on the surface...
> Has my beer gone bad? (The dots have not gotten bigger over the 
> last week or so...)

It may be mold, or it may not.  I'd siphon out from under it.  First look
in the 1997 HBD archives for "moldy and smize" and you'll get a write-up
I sent to HBD, about saving beer with mold on it.

> P.S.   Does anyone know if brewing beer in a "DRY" county is illegal, even
>            if the state does not make HB illegal?

Depends on the state law.  What state are you in?

 - - - - -
> From: Wayne_Kozun at otpp.com
> Subject: Homebrew and Flatulance

> Has anybody else noticed the correlation between drinking homebrew and
> flatulance, or is this something that only affects me.

>From the archives:

It's caused by the complex sugars and carbohydrates being fermented in
your gut, either by your local microflora or the yeast in the bottle.

Pour your beer carefully and gently into a glass, to reduce yeast
uptake.  Also try beano (from the drugstore).  You'll probably adapt
in a few months.

It occurs to me:

Yeast and similar microflora seem to be pretty picky about pH and other
chemical balances.  Perhaps acidifying your gut contents -- eating more
pickles and acidic foods -- would help.  Perhaps also hot-pepper foods
would help.  I don't have this problem (thank you Jesus) so I can't
do the experiment.  If anyone has first-hand experience, perhaps they'll
post the info (after they wash that hand).

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/
Personal net account - die gedanken sind frei


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:13:21 -0600
From: "David J. Vanness" <dvanness at students.wisc.edu>
Subject: Why no Aluminum in Commercial Brewing?

Sorry to contribute to the revival of the "aluminum vs. stainless" debate,
but since Kyle Druey fired the first shot (HBD #2642):

>Aluminim is better!  I never got to throw in my $0.02 cents on brewing
>with aluminum pots. As it turns out, aluminum conducts heat something
>like 5 times better than stainless steel, and is about 1/2 the cost.  It
>has not been proven that Al causes alzheimers (sp?) disease, and if the
>pot is allowed to oxidize it will not leach Al taste to your finished
>beer. SS beats Al only that it is more scratch ristant, retains heat
>better, and one can make more money by selling SS pots.  My 10 gallon
>aluminum Vollrath was $63 with the lid, plus another $5 for a ball valve
>and internal drain piping which I installed.  I saw the same stainless
>steel setup for $160.
>

These comments got me thinking: if Aluminum is so much cheaper, lighter,
easier to work, more conductive, etc., then why isn't it used more in
commercial brewing?  It seems to me like a potentially huge reduction in
overhead (and variable cost, if energy costs are reduced) to make an
aluminum brewery.  Are there technical reasons (e.g., scale factors that
make aluminum unusable; too scratchable for commercial use, etc.), or
simply anti-aluminum bias, or something else?

Dave Vanness in Madison, Wisconsin
(2 blocks from the USDA Barley & Malt Research Laboratory)

University of Wisconsin Dept. of Economics
dvanness at students.wisc.edu   :  http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~dvanness


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:41:14 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: A little more protein

A little more  on a recent post on the effects of kettle pH on proteins.
I remembered the bit from M&BS reasonably, but not completely,
accurately. From p 458 (Vol II) "Above pH 5 the amount of protein
coagulated is constant, but at lower pHs it is substantially
reduced..."  There are tables for both infusion and decoction mashes and
interested readers should look at them because the data don't quite
match the words depending on how you define "constant".

Although I implied it I didn't clearly state that large molecules like
proteins tend to be least soluble at their isoelectric points. It should
be clear that at pH's well below pI where the molecules have a large
positive charge and at  pH well above pI where they have a large
negative charge they will repell one another and stay in suspension.
Converesely at or near pI where the net charge is small or 0 there is no
net repulsion but the individual positive and negative charges
distributed over the molecule can attract if the molecules are arranged
properly.
The following contrived one-dimensional sketch should convey the idea

        +n+n+nnn+nn-nn-nn-nn-   Protein at isoelectric pH
        -nn-nn-nn-nn+nnn+n+n+   Same protein but physically reversed

In the sketch n represents an uncharged amino acid residue, + represents
a positively charged one and - a negatively charged one. The two
molecules are the same, have 0 net charge and are attracted to one
another because there is a relative physical position which puts the
negative charges of one in physical proximity to the positive charges of
the other and conversely.

To see all this at work try adding a few drops of vinegar to milk. The
pI of milk protein is around 5.2 and as enough vinegar is added to
approach that pH the milk will curdle.



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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:29:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: pickles

Greetings to all.  Earlier I wrote:

> Food aromas don't seem to transfer readily.  If you bleach it and/or
> hit it with strong ultraviolet (sunlight) for a couple of days, you won't
> get pickle beer.  You might start with a weak/light test batch just to
> see if any taste transfers.

OK, I have now (on rec.crafts.brewing) seen my first-ever first-hand
account from someone who got pickle taste after using bleach and
sunlight.  Others have not, even when the aroma remained.  Perhaps
dill pickles are worse.

A cheap test batch will tell you for your specific bucket.

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net
Personal net account - die gedanken sind frei


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:34:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Why aluminum isn't used commercially

Greetings,

Aluminum is seldom used in commercial brewing because:

 - It reacts poorly to clean-in-place (CIP) chemicals.

 - It needs a layer of oxidization to neutralize it, otherwise it puts
  a taste into the beer.  This is easy to maintain at home-brewing
  scale, more of a pain on a commercial scale.

 - It's softer, so more prone to damage.

 - It conducts heat better, so it loses heat to the environment faster,
  so you need to add more heat to maintain a boil (energy costs money).

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/
Personal net account - die gedanken sind frei


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 13:27:52 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: 240V danger

Kyle Druey wrote (among other things):

>I was convinced that using 120V was the best choice for me.  For
>starters, you would be nuts to use 240V for brewing without a GFI

Actually, 240V is no more dangerous than 120V since the voltage to ground is
120V either way.  The 240V is only between the two 240V leads.  If you get
that going through you I am not sure the GFCI would do any good anyway.
It only protects you from grounding the circuit.  Although you would probably
be grounded so that would trip it.  The 120V should be enough to kill you
anyway if you are well grounded.  The point is, 120V is just as dangerous
as 240V around water.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:33:43 +0100
From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Re: Mash water calculations

Lars Bjornstad asked about mash water calculations in HBD#2642:

> Isn't it a bit strange that the calculations are correct for
> adding water to dry grains, but way off when adding to the mash?
> I'm aware of the YMMV clause that comes with these formulas, but
> still? The formula is basically the same.

I had the same problem. From what I've seen so far, no formula 
or software takes the thermal capacity of the mashtun into account.
I mean we also rise the temp of the mashtun, so we shouldn't only 
calculate with masses and thermal capacities of grain and mashwater, 
but also include this *system dependent constant*! A rule of thumb 
for estimating this value is the mass of the mashtun -without 
insulation and cold parts (eg. outer casing).

Furthermore, we have to take into account the heat loss of the 
mashtun.

That all seems logical so far but why do you hit mashing in temp but 
not further infusions? In my experience/setup I got the same problems 
(temps too low after a few minutes) already at mashing in, when I 
choosed slurry consistencies like 2.2 l/kg. With thicker, pasty 
mashes of 1.6 l/kg like in Lars's example, heat transfer simply takes 
much longer and therefore everything seems to be ok - IMHO.

Anyway, this all adds some complexity to the maths but I've tried to 
make a simplified approach with my Excel brewplanner:

brew_rec.xls in
http://www.netbeer.co.at/beer/bin/brewtabs.zip

The "factors" register allows a system calibration like this:

record temp of empty mashtun/environment
add full mash volume of hot water, eg. 70C/158F
record temp after 5 minutes
record temp after 65 minutes

The initial drop in temperature is caused mainly by thermal capacity 
of the mashtun whereas the 60 minutes drop allows to calculate the 
heat loss of the mashtun.

Permission is granted to use the spreadsheet or parts of it as long 
as the (c) is kept intact and no part of it is included in commercial 
applications.

We've tested it on various systems and hit target temperatures well 
within 1C (+-0.5C). The register with the international metric units 
has been debugged so far, the register with the standard units has to 
be tested yet - any volunteers?

CHEERS&
sehr zum Wohle!

Hubert, calculating in Salzburg, Austria

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:14:15 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Short lager times

George asks about just how short lagering time can be in professional 
practices.  I spent some time in Gent in Sept with a Diplom who was 
in charge of re-engineering a brewery in Romania.   Now, this 
gentleman loves good beer, Duvel was his regular beer.  He proudly 
told me that when he came to the brewery the cycle time per lager 
beer was around 40 days.  Now he has it down to 10-13 days!  The 
kicker was that both he and his loyal drinkers noted that the beer is 
actually of higher quality now then before.  Im not certain if this 
is more of an indication of the quality of the older brewery or of 
the modern practices but I do know that many of these accelerated 
brewing techniques do work.  That said, dont expect anything but a 5+ 
week lager out of Victory Brewing.

Prost!

Jim Busch

"Let the VICTORY fall where it will, we are on that side"
 - Emerson


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:26:32 -0700
From: Jim Anderson <jcander at xmission.com>
Subject: James Page Iron Range Amber Lager???

As a Northwest Airlines employee (one stationed in beer-barren Utah, no
less) I'm excited about their recent announcement that they'll be
serving this beer inflight sometime "this spring" (NO! This is NOT a
plug!) -- the press release can be found at
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/980218/mn_northwe_1.html

I'm only wondering if anyone here has ever tried this stuff.  If so, I'd
be interested in any comments or observations.  According to the press
release, this won the gold for Best Specialty Beer at the 1997 GABF, but
that tells me nothing of its properties.

Private email please, so as to keep a high S/N ratio!

  - Jim

P.S.  Speaking of Utah, Wasatch Breweries have produced a wonderful
offering with their Special Reserve Pale Ale (again, not a plug -- had
they made this a couple of years back, I probably wouldn't have even
started brewing!).  It's what we Utahns call a full-strength beer (as
opposed to the 3.2  at #$% at #$ we normally have here), which means we can
buy it only in the state liquor stores.  I've heard that it's exported
to the real U.S., so give it a try if you see it.  I don't think you'll
regret it.


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:06:46 -0700
From: "Robert J. Waddell" <rjw at dimensional.com>
Subject: Re: white spots

I tried to send this to your address but it kept bouncing:
You wrote:
>Now small white dots are floating on the surface...
>Has my beer gone bad? (The dots have not gotten bigger over the 
>last week or so...)

Hi,

No, your beer is just fine.  If you use a magnifying glass to get a
good look at the white dots, you will find that they are just small
bubbles.  They seem to have some kind of attraction for each other
and end up in small clumps.  It's just the dissolved CO2 coming out
of suspension in the wort.  When you were in full blown ferment, the
bubbles were probably huge in comparison.  The wort is partially 
saturated with the CO2 from fermentation, and it is coming out very
slowly, thus the tiny bubbles.  At least that is my take on it.

Since you've had it in secondary for so long, you might want to add
a sachet of dry yeast at bottling, in case most of your yeast has
settled out.  Even if you don't need it, it wouldn't hurt.  Why 
take chances on having a flat batch?

rjw


                      I *L*O*V*E* my [Pico] system.  'Cept for that
                      gonging noise it makes when my wife throws it
                      off the bed at night.
                      Women...
                                         --Pat Babcock

          *** It's never too late to have a happy childhood!  ***
********************************************************************
RJW at dimensional.com      / Opinions expressed are usually my own but
Robert J. Waddell       / perhaps shared.     ICQ #7136012
Owner & Brewmaster: Barchenspeider Brew-Haus   Longmont, Colorado
********************************************************************
                    (4,592 feet higher than Jeff Renner)


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:48:33 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Multi-Part Mime

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Another new filter has been installed on the front end of the Digest 
server: ALL multi-part MIME messages will now be automatically 
rejected by the server with a suitable explanation as to how the 
mailer should be set to allow the post to go through. We apologize 
in advance for any inconvenience this may impose, but you have no 
idea of the number of posts we have to wade through every day due to 
encoding problems...

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan          pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor            janitor@hbd.org
AOL FDN Beer & Brewing Maven        BrewBeerd at aol.com


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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:13:09 -0700
From: Kevin TenBrink <tenbrink at jps.net>
Subject: metric and party pigs

I just thought I would chip in my support for Party Pigs also.  They are
a great alternative to bottling and kegging.  I have three that are in
constant use and do not seem to be showing any signs of wear or
retaining any flavours or aromas in the plastic.

Secondly, I think the last English Unit of measure that home brewers and
beer drinkers the world over will be the most reluctant to relinquish is
the pint.  Inviting a friend over for a few 400 milliliters of ale does
not have quite the same ring to it.
Cheers
Kevin TenBrink
Nine Inch Ales Homebrew Club
http://www.jps.net/tenbrink/nineinchales.htm




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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:13:01 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: FW: Beer Primary 

William Warren asked about Pickle buckets for the Beer Primary.

I was given a bucket from a Mexican resteurant (sp?) that contained 
taco sauce. Not only was it badly stained but the odor persisted 
no matter how hard I cleaned! I use it to store my 
supplies that could attract critters, instead.

If you want a free bucket which avoids odor/stain problems, go visit 
a bakery. The buckets that iciing comes in will clean up well and, 
unless you get a dark chocolate one, will be free of stains.  I picked 
up two: one for fermenting, the other for bottling. For the latter I drilled 
a small hole and used my Dremel with a sanding drum to round out 
the hole to the correct size for a spigot.

Man, I can only imagine what kind of flavor your first batch will have! 
Want some ice cream with that?

mike d. (Central GA, USA)



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---