---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Wort Aeration ("Steven Jones")
  6-row malt (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Irish Moss and Unread References (Jim Bentson)
  Maltstrom, Corn sugar, Weird book, Insulating cooler top (michael w bardallis)
  Heat loss equations/Bung sizes ("Gregg Soh")
  Judges for NY City Spring Reg. Comp. (kbjohns)
  AFCHBD results (hollen)
  Re: Cats and spent hops (Jim Bentson)
  6-row ("Steve Alexander")
  hops (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Cleaning Sanke Kegs ("S. Wesley")
  Chlorine removal (George_De_Piro)
  Regarding Dutch beer bottle (DenBrouwer)
  Re: Mashout in cooler/Pistachio porter (Tidmarsh Major)
  1998 Green Mountain HB Comp. CANCELLED (Jeff)
  Too much molasses (Joseph.M.Labeck at brew.oeonline.com, "Jr.")
  Goldings hops ("Robert D. Dittmar")
  Re: legalities of transporting HB (HBD #2656) ("Joel Plutchak")
  Pistachios and Wyeast 1187 ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  water treatment (Joe Shope)
  Ian Smith "crisper/cleaner filtered taste?"  3/7/98 (Vachom)
  soon to be homeless Grolsch bottles (Al & Jan Causey)
  Re: chloramines (Matthew Arnold)
  Aerator & RIMS scorching + flow rates ("C.D. Pritchard")
  re: the slow-mead myth (Dick Dunn)


----------------------------------------------------------
Be sure to enter the 7th NYC Spring Regional Competition
3/22/98. Surf to http://www.wp.com/hosi/companno.html for more
information...


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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:48:02 -0500
From: "Steven Jones" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Wort Aeration


Hi all.

I've been lurking for about 6 months now and I have come to anxously
await each days digest. I've learned more during this time than in my
prevous 18 months of brewing *blindfolded* and *handcuffed*.

On the wort aeration thread, I'd like to contribute my method. I have
built a 1/2 bbl 3 tier system with the boiler just 12 inches off of
the floor (I have a low garage ceiling), so I have to use a pump to
move my wort (chilled with an immersion chiller) to the fermenter.
When I connect the inlet side of the pump to the ball valve, I leave
the connection VERY SLIGHTLY loose. This causes air to be drawn into
the wort stream before the pump, and by using clear vinyl tubing on
the inlet side, you can see the amount of air drawn in and the
turbulence created, and adjust the tightness of the fitting
accordingly to prevent cavitation. As I direct the wort flow into the
fermenter, it produces a 2-3 inch head of foam on it. I have
regularly had lag times of 6-8 hours using a 750 ml starter, and
complete fermentations (ales) in 4-6 days. 

I recirculate an iodophor solution thru the pump for about 15 minutes
while the wort is being chilled, and have not had a problem with any
contaminations.

BTW, I'm a member of the State of Franklin Homebrewers club here in
Upper East Tennessee (that's way, way east of Knoxville), and we have
a website which you may find interesting. Check it out at
http://home.att.net/~stjones1/index.htm . It is still under
construction (or is that evolution?), and we have many plans for
improvements. If there are any lurkers who are in our area, or
visitors from outside the area, please feel welcome to join us at our
meetings.

Curiosity: How does one submit a post from a ship at sea?

Cheers.
Steve Jones <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net




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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:20:45 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: 6-row malt

In Homebrew Digest #2652 (March 04, 1998), Steve Alexander wrote

>IMO 6-row belongs in the gut of a quadruped
>or brewed with equal parts of rice and sold to the ignorant masses.  Use
>of 6-row appears to be a price compromise.

I'll speak up for the use of 6-row in CAP and other recreations of
indigeneous adjunct brews for historical reasons.  (In private
communication, Steve said that he considered including such an exception,
but edited it out).  Of course, today's 6-rows are not yesterday's.  I
suspect that before chemical fertilizers, the protein levels could well
have been lower.  But I've had CAPs brewed by others using domestic 2-row
and German Pilsner malt and they just weren't the same.  Too wimpy,
somehow.  Of course, the differences in our brewing techniques may have
overwhelmed the malt differences.  I haven't tried using domestic 2-row
myself in a CAP, although I've considered it and may still.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 16:55:46 -0500
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at htp.net>
Subject: Re: Irish Moss and Unread References


Al K recently wrote about the use of Irish Moss. He said:

>
>I wish I had my copy of Dr. Fix's new book here... I'm pretty sure this
>would be in there,

It is in the book i.e 'An Analysis of Brewing Techniques'  on  pgs 119-122.
Unfortunately that discussion is less than perfect (see below)

> but he was good enough to send me a copy of a paper
>he had written a few years ago which described some experiments he ran
>with Irish Moss.  Several different varieties of IM were tried at several
>different concentrations.  Rehydration of the IM was done and it was
>stressed that this was very important.

Unfortunately, while Fix mentions such a paper in the book, he does not
mention the need for rehydration of the IM in the section of book where the
data is given. To give extensive data and then  neglect to tell how to
prepare the fining does some disservice to the reader who would like to put
the test results into practice.

> There were tradeoffs between
>head retention and clarity and a few other factors, but my reading of
>the data indicated to me that 1/8 gram per liter of *refined flakes* was
>the best choice. 

 This is where I was left unsure. In the book , Fix presents data on how
different amounts of Irish Moss affect the final beer. He measured Turbidity
, and comments on the resulting Form and Fermentation. He doesn't
specifically define 'Form' (does he mean Foam which he does mention?) Based
on the discussion in the book, it seems to be related to the head and body
of the beer.

Fix  tested Irish Moss at levels of 1/24, 1/12 , 1/8, and 1/4 gm/liter. He
estimates that 1/24 gm/liter is about 1 tsp in 5 gals. He points out that
commercial  usage is 1/16 to 1/8 gms/l ( 1.5tsp to 3 tsp per 5 gals) and
recommends that the 1/8 gm/liter be used . This gives less turbidity than
1/12 gm/l. Based on his data both 1/8 and 1/12 are in the satisfactory
turbidity range . This figure is the same that Al found in the paper.

However,  I would like to caution that the 'Form' rating for 1/8 gm/l is
'Slightly Below Normal'. This  compares to 'Normal' for all lower dosages
and 'Poor' for the higher amount of 1/4 gm/liter. Since there is some
degradation in the 'Form' ratings it appears that 3tsp per 5 gal batch is
actually the MAXIMUM that should be used. Based on the data given in the
book  it appears to me that 2 - 3 tsps per 5 gal batch would be the correct
amount, which is still  a lot higher than most brewing books recommend (1
tsp / 5 gals is quite commonly quoted)


>(SNIP) the protein was removed as break from the extract during production,
extract
>batches would require less IM, right?  My experiments indeed confirmed
>this suspicion.
>

Fix goes further. He states 'Irish Moss is not recommended for
protein-deficient worts. Those produced from malt syrup  are an example.'
 .The reason is that Irish Moss has the undesirable effect of reducing wort
FAN levels, leading to potentially dysfunctional fermentations in protein
deficient worts.

*********************************************

2)  I would like to make a request of posters. Recently I have noticed an
increase in posts that start off with something along the line of 'I don't
have my copy handy but I think it said.....'. This often leads to a whole
series of posts correcting  mistakes in "remembered" data. This then results
in the original poster writing back and quoting the original and now found
and read source.

 It would be very helpful to the rest of us if  posters would refrain from
using memory when they know that the data is in a reference that they have
access to. If at all possible, please take the time to check the reference
BEFORE posting. In the long run it saves a lot of confusion and bandwidth.

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY


- --
Registered ICC User
check out http://www.usefulware.com/~jfoltz




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Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:41:38 -0500
From: dbgrowler at juno.com (michael w bardallis)
Subject: Maltstrom, Corn sugar, Weird book, Insulating cooler top

Gotta agree with Dave Burley about six-row - you always hear about its
unsuitability, but experience does not agree. Haven't used as a base malt
in years, but mainly because Briess 2-row costs about the same and is
more consistently available. Using the same base malt consistently allows
one  to predict more accurately the character of each brew. I do,
however, use Briess specialty malts almost exclusively in my ales, and I
doubt that the roasted barley or 80 deg. crystal would be much better if
they were made from 2-row. Roger Protz and the other judges at the Real
Ale Festival Homebrewed Real Ale Competition awarded Best-of Show to a
stout brewed from all Briess malt, 2-row base & six-row crystal, RB, and
black patent. I think product consistency, and a brewer's knowledge of
the effects provided by each malt in his "palette" are the real issue.
This knowledge is acquired through experience. Buy malt by the sack! Brew
more beer! 

Whilst on the soapbox: It's OK to prime bottle conditioned beer with corn
sugar! It is 100% fermentable. Those who prime with dry malt are doing so
for romantic, not scientific or practical reasons. If your beer tastes
too sweet, cidery, has an aftertaste, etc., look elsewhere- it ain't your
priming sugar.

Al K mentions a book by Clive La Pensee that features a practical
description of home malting, it's called  The Historical Companion to
House-Brewing, and is available from Brewers Publications. It also has
info on hop growing and processing, and a great section on herbs used in
brewing. It is, to understate a bit, an unconventional work, but I
recommend it. Read this book and you will see brewing from the standpoint
of someone who questions everything about the process. Very entertaining.

Chris Ingermann asks about using expanding foam to insulate his cooler
top:

Expanding foam is OK, though it is a pain in the ass to work with. I
usually buy the stuff when I see it on sale (it is kinda pricey), then
wait 'til I've got several jobs to do with it, and do them all at once.
As mentioned previously in this forum, "Great Stuff" sticks and clogs and
really can't be used a second time. I definitely recommend insulating the
cooler top, though. I did my Coleman 10 gal. "beverage dispense" type
cooler, and now the top is not even warm to the touch when mashing is
under way. Poke a hole in each side edge of the top (maybe more on long
sides) and inject a moderate blast in each. Go easy when filling the
cooler top, a few voids won't hurt.. Do a couple practice squirts onto
scrap paper or something to get a feel for how it flows & expands first.
And yes, Chris, brewing is damn fun.

Mike Bardallis

Now serving Munich Helles and American IPA on draft; Polar Beer, Imperial
Stout, and Barleywine in bottles. Coming soon, Munich Dunkel. All in the
shadow of the big tire, Allen Park, MI

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 01:00:13 PST
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: Heat loss equations/Bung sizes

I had posted a question on calculating heat loss from my mash tun and 
insulation. Well, I'll just answer myself and say that if I use the 
equations, Q = mc(theta) = kAt x temeperature gradient, I'd only get the 
heat energy loss at that given time and wouldn't be able to calculate 
true temperature drop without integration. Anyway a rough 
'instantaneous' value of heat loss was used as my guide at the highest 
temperature when the temperature gradient thus heat loss was greatest, 
as to the suitability of a certain type of insulation to be used.

On another note, I long while ago I remembered that someone had put up a 
table on the net that had the dimensions(diameters) of bungs with 
respect to their numbers. Is this resource still around? I can't seem to 
find it anymore. Anyone?

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 10:29:09 -0500
From: kbjohns at peakaccess.net
Subject: Judges for NY City Spring Reg. Comp.

HOSI would appreciate if youd be able to help us out with judging our 7th
competition on Sunday 3/22/98

If you have already responded please ignore this request.

We expect close to 300 entries and will need 30 to 40 BJCP judges. In turn
for you r help we can only offer Lunch, a snack & plenty of good beer after
the competition, 2 free entries to this years competition and of course
judging points.

If you can help out please email Ken Johnsen at kbjohns at peakaccess.net.
Also if you or your club can pass this on to other judges we would
appreciate it

Complete information can be found on the clubs web page
Ken Johnsen


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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 98 07:45:36 PST
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: AFCHBD results

Thank you to all who participated in the Fifth Annual America's Finest
City Homebrew Competition on March 7th.  We had 300 entries and 46
judges who participated on Friday night and Saturday.  Full results
can be obtained on our web page at:

        http://www.softbrew.com/afchbc/results5th.htm

Please join me in congratulating these outstanding brewers who placed
in the Best Of Show round:

Best of Show
        Michael Westcott - American Pale Ale
        No Club Indicated
1st Runnerup
        David Askey -  Maerzen/Oktoberfest
        San Diego Brew Techs
2nd Runnerup
        Frank Leers - Sparkling Melomel
        Quality Ale & Fermentation Fraternity
3rd Runnerup
        Greg & Liz Lorton - Foreign Style Stout
         Quality Ale & Fermentation Fraternity

dion

Judge Coordinator
1998 America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor
http://www.softbrew.com/afchbc

- ---
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California


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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 18:14:16 -0500
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at htp.net>
Subject: Re: Cats and spent hops

Subject: Re: Cats and spent hops

Andy Walsh wrote:

>For all you animal lovers out there, don't despair, there are plenty more. 
>Maybe homebrew ingredients are toxic to other cuddly friends; why not
>experiment on your cat? (be sure to report results).

Dear Andy:
 We read your post.
 Are you kidding? 
You expect us cats to eat slimy wet hops? 
Get a life! We are not dumb like all those silly dogs you have been talking
about.

Felinely yours
Red, Corkey, Sassafras,Sylvester and Ethyl

The 5 Cats of Jim Bentson
Lazing Our Lives Away in Centerport NY
- --
Registered ICC User
check out http://www.usefulware.com/~jfoltz




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Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:48:50 -0500
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 6-row

My friend, David Burley states

>Actually, I have made lots of good beer of all types with 6-row when
>European 2-row wasn't available and I have yet to understand
>where this prejudice comes from.  

Having never used pale 6-row, except for malting experiments, I will
admit that this is something of a prejudice.  Jeff Renner also points
out that 6-row, with it's additional phenolic content, may actually
have an advantage over 2-row when making CAP, and other
traditrional American adjunct beers.  My personal aminus against
6-row is it's use in roast, crystal and ersatz-munich malts by
American maltsters.  I will never forget (or forgive) my discovery that
British (M&F)  and continental (Durst, DeWC) crystal malts have a 
clear clean flavor unavailable in (Briess) 6-row caramel products.  It's
a difference easily detected in side-by-side comparison.

To their credit, I see that Briess  has recently introduced 2-row
caramel at 40L, 60L, 80L, in addition to their older line of 6-row
caramel, roast, ?vienna?, ?munich? and 6-row pale. Schreier
apparently only uses 6-row in their lighter (<30L) caramels and
in their 6-row pale.

As for sieved 6-row being selected for lower protein content -
from the BT Market guide it appears that 6-row runs almost 2%
higher protein than US 2-row, which is again 1.5 to 2% higher than
brit PA malt.  Continental malts mostly fall in between brit and
US 2-row.  I would be willing to admit that protein content is more
of a british bugaboo, since the high kilning temps and single
infusion regime don't permit any corrective mash rests.

>I suspect a marketing ploy here to keep the barley in
>British Beers British. The fact that there is a website on
>British Barley clearly establishes the marketing going on here.

Gee - I wonder how they were able to sabatoge my tongue ?  BTW-
there is an American Malted Barley Assoc(AMBA) website, And sites
by several british maltster, but the british site I noted is by the
prestigious institute of brewing, which is just as likely to carry notes
on sorghum as barley. The fact is that IoB and British maltsters seem
to take the matter of barley quality and selection more seriously than
their north american counterparts.   I believe that the Journal of the IoB
has an annual article in barley variety tests. Note that brit malts often
carry varietal information (maris otter, chariot, pipkin , halcyon, golden 
promise, etc) while the Briess notes I have state some generic
information like 'Harrington, Klages or other AMBA approved varieties'.
If I  were a commercial brewer I'd like to know more rather than less 
about the source, quality and consistancy of my primary raw
material.

Steve Alexander





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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 07:55:37 +0100
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: hops

Hello brewers,

I have the Zymurgy's Guide to Hops (1997 Randy Mosher) and I'm 
missing
the specifications of the following hops. Is there somebody who can help
me?

Looking for: Origin, Type (Aroma, Bittering, Dual), Avg.Alpha Acid %,
storage stability, usually used in ......, any comments. 
   Bullion
   Magnum
   Early Green

Thanking you in advance,
Greetings from Holland, 
Hans Aikema



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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 06:11:19 -0800
From: "S. Wesley" <sWesley at maine.maine.edu>
Subject: Cleaning Sanke Kegs

Hi Folks,
	Does anyone have experience cleaning out Sanke kegs?  I have 
heard descriptions of commercial keg cleaners which spray cleaning 
solution in through the spear and drain through the gas line.  I am 
currently using the older style of kegs with the bung in the side which 
I bought from my local Brewpub. These are great because I can easily 
drain them, inspect them and fill them. I'm a bit nervous about not being 
able to see what is inside and I'm also concerned about removing all of 
the cleanimg soultion.  What materials and setup do you use for cleaning 
Sanke Kegs?
					Regards,
					Simon A. Wesley


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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:29:30 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Chlorine removal

     Hi all,
     
     Very nice work, AJ!  I love to see myths exploded!
     
     At the end of his post AJ asks if people are having any chlorine 
     problems when using heating/aeration/ and/or time to remove 
     chloramines.
     
     I've been to several breweries where NOTHING is done to remove 
     chlorine from the water!  The beers seemed to be free of 
     chlorine-induced defects.  How can this be?  Another myth, perhaps?
     
     At one brewpub, Mickey Finn's in Libertyville, IL, the mash water is 
     heated in the hot liquor tank and blended with the grain and cold, 
     untreated city water at mash in (this blending occurs in the grain 
     hydrator and is used to control the mash-in temperature).  How is it 
     that they don't have chlorophenol problems?  Is the heat of mashing 
     enough to drive off the chlorine before it can react with malt 
     phenols?
     
     As for my experience, my tap water is chlorinated using bleach (it's a 
     small, old water company).  I have been using a carbon filter for 
     about a year now.  Before that I simply let the water stand overnight 
     (which was sometimes only 4 hours or so).  While the normally wretched 
     chlorine smell was gone in that time, I never did test it 
     quantitatively.  AJ's numbers would suggest that some free chlorine 
     might be left after 4 hours or so.  I never had any flavor defects 
     attributable to chlorine, however.  Hmmm...
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:33:01 EST
From: DenBrouwer <DenBrouwer at aol.com>
Subject: Regarding Dutch beer bottle

Laura asked to identify the Dutch on a beer bottle she was given:

<Met de beste wesen van Brouwerij't IJ  Amsterdam
With the best wishes of the brewery 't Ij Amsterdam

<extra speciaal ijndejaarsbier
extra special end of the year beer

<voorzichtig doch vastberaden uitschenken
pour carefully but steady

<inh.33 cl. cat.s alc.9 vol.%
contents 0.33 litre (16 oz ?) category s (strong) alcohol 9% by vol

<bier van hoge gisting
beer of top fermenting yeast (ale)

<ad usum internum
for internal use (from my rusty high school Latin)

<minstens houdbaar tot enid '98
can at least be kept till the end of '98

<met nagisting op fles
referments in the bottle

Hope this helps 
(this label is kind of standard for a strong ale of Belgium and the
Netherlands,
it doesn't give any special information regarding this particular beer)

Bart Lipkens


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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:48:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Tidmarsh Major <tmajor at parallel.park.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: Mashout in cooler/Pistachio porter

Dan Thompson asks about how to do a mashout in a cooler mashtun.  I
usually draw off some of the first runnings (1 to 2 gallons, depending on
the amount of grain) and bring it to a boil.  Adding the boiling runnings
back to the tun usually brings the grain bed up to around 170F.

****************

Steve Gabrio asks about a pistachio porter.  This month's Brew Your Own
has a recipe for a pistachio pilsner that uses a grain alcohol tincture of
pistachios to add flavor (and color, which wouldn't show in a porter),
with half added during fermentation and half at bottling. the recipe's
available online at http://www.byo.com/98mar/exchange.html

Tidmarsh Major
tmajor at parallel.park.uga.edu
Birmingham, Alabama

 "But we must drink as we brew,
    And that is but reason."



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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:58:26 -0500
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: 1998 Green Mountain HB Comp. CANCELLED

Hi All,

  I received the following message the other day from the competition
organizer.  Thought others on the HBD may be interested.

>>>>>>

The 1998 Green Mountain Homebrew Competition (GMHC), previously scheduled
for May 2, 1998, has been CANCELLED due to legal constraints.

Legislative action which would allow homebrew competitions to be conducted
lawfully in Vermont is currently pending in the Vermont State House.  If
the bill now being considered passes this year, we may try to reschedule
our competition and hold it in the fall of 1998.  Further details will be
forthcoming.

The GMHC Organizing Committee sincerely regrets any inconvenience this
action may cause to potential entrants and judges, and to the organizers of
the other competitions in the New England Homebrewer of the Year (NEHBOTY)
circuit.  We appreciate your patience and your understanding as we work
through these difficult circumstances.

Dave Gannon
Competition Organizer
Green Mountain Homebrew Competiton (GMHC)

<<<<<

                                             Hoppy brewing,

                                             Jeff


============================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                  Phone:  (401) 841-7210 x21390
Mechanical Engineer                  Fax:    (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology and              email: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
    Analysis Branch
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI  02841-1708


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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:18:53 +0800
From: Joseph.M.Labeck at brew.oeonline.com, "Jr." <joe-sysop at cyberbury.net>
Subject: Too much molasses

Hi, folks;
	I have a question for the almighty collective. I rarely post, so to 
refresh your memories, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool extract brewer.
	I recently made a porter.  I often add a bit of molasses to the wort, 
cuz I had read that colonial brewers often used it, among other, wilder 
ingredients, to make up for a chronic shortage of barley. (I also really like 
the taste)
	My problem was that I had a short circuit in my brain. Instead of 
adding my usual 2/3 cup of light molasses to my 4-gal. batch, I added a FULL 
cup of blackstrap. It's now conditioned and tastes -um- nasty.
	I'm going to wait and see if time mellows it out. But I was wondering 
if anyone has had a similar experience, and can give me a hint on what to 
expect.
Thanks,
Joe Labeck

Joe's Beer
Featuring Cuppa Joe Stout, Uncle Bill's Porter, and Nutt 'n' Tuit Brown Ale
Joseph M. Labeck, Jr.
Business Writing Services
125 French St.
Watertown, CT 06795
(860)274-9421
"...whenever you need the written word"



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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:16:52 -0600
From: "Robert D. Dittmar" <Robert.D.Dittmar at stls.frb.org>
Subject: Goldings hops

     Collective:
     
     I wanted to follow up on a comment made by AlK in HBD 2655.
     
          One thing that I feel is overlooked, is that (to my taste) adding 
          too much Golding flavor hops (more than 1 ounce per 5 gallons) 
          will result in a beer with a "sugary" lingering sweetness.  Could 
          that be it?
          
     I have often been disappointed in British ales for having what I think 
     of as a clinging, cloying sugary taste.  I even feel it on my tongue 
     as a kind of crystalline sensation as if I have a mouth full of sugar 
     crystals.
     
     I have often wondered what the source of this taste/sensation was, and 
     AlK's post makes me wonder if Golding hops are to blame.  Has anyone 
     else had this impression with British ales?  Has anyone made homebrew 
     with Goldings and had this impression?  I have found commercially, 
     Bass has this taste, Eldridge Pope's Royal Oak has it, and Samuel 
     Smith's India Ale has it, although I haven't noticed it in their other 
     beers.
     
     I am not trying to knock British beers in general, as others may find 
     the taste I am talking about pleasing and there are many British beers 
     that I enjoy, but I would like to know what causes the odd taste that 
     I have found in some of them.  I at first blamed the taste on bad 
     storage of the beers in question, but if it is indeed Goldings hops, 
     I'll try to avoid using them at home.
     
     If anyone has any information, I would like to hear from them.
     
     Thanks,
     
     Rob Dittmar
     St. Louis, MO
     


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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:33:36 -0600
From: "Joel Plutchak" <joel at bolt.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: legalities of transporting HB (HBD #2656)

>Does anyone know what legalities one should consider when transporting
>homebrew across state lines.  Let's say, hypothetically speaking, that one
>is moving to another state and one's movers have refused to haul any full
>bottles, leaving one to load the car with 10 or so cases of beer and mead.
>What perils might this hapless and hypothetical homebrewer face if pulled
>over by, say, an Alabama state trooper just past the state line?

   The legalities depend upon state and local laws.  Needless to say,
they can vary quite widely.  It just happens that I, uh, know a
homebrewer and beer aficionado who tends to carry homebrew and
commercial beer into a particular dry county in Texas every so often.
Last time we, er, he was there, the local newspaper ran an article
on Texas dry laws.  One that stood out was the fact that if you are
caught bringing more than a case of beer into a dry county, it is
prima facie evidence of intent to sell (i.e., bootlegging), and
has more severe penalties than it otherwise would.
   I'd do it and not worry too much about it, but drive friendly
so as to avoid being stopped just in case.
- --
Joel Plutchak
A Texas-in-law living in Champaign, Illinois


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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:44:56 -0500
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Pistachios and Wyeast 1187

Steve Gabrio wrote and wonders?

>The other day I was drinking a porter and eating pistachios. The two
>flavors complimented each other well.  So...

>  - Has anybody tried brewing with pistachios?
>  - Would they work best in the mash, boil or fermentor?
>  - What quantity would be needed for a 5 gallon batch?


Steve,
A few years back I brewed an extract batch of brown ale with both pecans
and pistachios. Since it was a true experiment, I used 2 ounces of each
and I put them in the boil after crushing them. There was a "nutty" hint
to the brew but who knows for sure if it was from the malt extract or
the added nuts?? Anyway, the beer was called "Two P's In The Pot" and
has been published in Lutzens' and Stevens' More Homebrew Favorites for
what it's worth. Give 'er a shot, there is no off effects that I know of
as long as they are placed in the boil. In the fermenter, hmmmmm?????

Follow up on my Wyeast? 1187 thread:

Lars Bjornstad sent me an email with a website that had a copy of
Wyeasts' strain statistics. I have seen many of these lists all over but
this one had the listing for their "1187" that I was looking for. This
listing confirms what I had suspected regardign the origin of the yeast
I got from my Brewmaster friend in Colorado. Apparently it is not sold
retail to homebrewers. Not that this makes this strain anything special,
just a little more difficult to acquire.
Anyway, at least I know what I have now and just thought ya'll would
like to see this thread terminate!!
Thanks to all,

Marc
- ------------------------------------------ 
Captain Marc Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
Future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"


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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 20:51:23 +0000
From: Joe Shope <sltp5 at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: water treatment

Brethren,

I just received a new copy of the analysis of my local water and was 
wondering if I could get some opinions on water treatment.  This is 
what the analysis gives.

pH              7.5
Ca2+         45 ppm
Fe               <0.03 ppm
Mg2+         <0.01ppm
Na+             1.08 ppm
SO4-           6.0 ppm
Cl-               1.4 ppm
HCO3-        190 ppm
hardness   235
alkalinity     156

In the past I have used phosphoric or sulfuric acid to lower the pH 
down to 6.5 and occasionally I have added a teaspoon of CaCl2  or 
1/2 teaspoon of CaSO4.  What I would like to do is produce a beer 
with a dry finish. 

Are there any suggestions on treatment for this water?




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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:06:58 -0600
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: Ian Smith "crisper/cleaner filtered taste?"  3/7/98

	Filtering is unquestionably the way to get "that commercial taste," as
you say.  The finer the filter, the closer you get to Zima.  
	I'll admit upfront that I have a problem with filtering homebrew; the
procedure seems antithetical to my reasons for brewing at least.  I
would encourage you to fiddle with malt profiles, mash schedules, water
chemistry, yeast and hop varieties to achieve the tastes you like before
you try filtering.  Remember that your micro-brewer friend must make his
beer saleable to a wide market, including those customers who experience
a kind of existential terror when faced with something other than the
crystal clear, characterless qualities of Bud.  He wants that guy to
give his brew a shot and knows he can't do it by handing him a murky 70
IBU pint of IPA.    


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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:51:10 -0800
From: Al & Jan Causey <causey.bly at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: soon to be homeless Grolsch bottles

I live in Tampa and am a homebrewer on a brewing hiatus - AND I'm about
to move (relatively quickly) and want to give my collection of >100
Grolsch bottles to a good home.  If you live in/near the area and would
like to come get them - please call.  Thanks, Al
- -- 
              Alan L. Causey, MD & Jan E. Bly, PhD
         6809 Silver Branch Court; Tampa, FL 33625 USA
                         (813) 963-0379
                  causey.bly at worldnet.att.net
           http://home.att.net/~mikestark/ann-tull.htm


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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 19:11:15 GMT
From: revmra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Re: chloramines

On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:39:26 -0500, you wrote:

>So what do you all think of that? Apparently about 25% of large water
>utilities and about 5% of small ones are now using chloramination (are
>you there, Al?). Thus many of you are starting with chloraminated water.
>Are any of you using just a boil, aeration or standing to remove the
>chlorine and getting away with it?

I've recently gone all-grain (two batches under my belt), so I can only give a
limited number of datapoints. My water is, IMHO, heavily chlorinated (when it
comes out of the tap, I'm hit with eau de swimming pool). One of the members of
my church is the head of the local water and light commission. He told me that
some of the wells in town are chlorinated and some are chloraminated (is that a
word?) so it's a mixed bag.

At any rate, his brother is a chemist for the water system in a town just south
of Green Bay. He told me that I could take care of the chlorine/chloramine in
our water by boiling. Being lazy and cheap, I've done that instead of getting a
carbon filter. None of my extract brews have had noticable problems with
chlorophenolics (sp?) nor have my two all-grain batches. They have been tasted
by others (and judged by BJCP judges). No one has commented on chlorine-related
off-flavors.

This is just my experience, so take it for what its worth. I am very sensitive
to chlorine (my wife claims she can't smell it out of the tap) so I think I
would have noticed some weirdness by now. This new info you posted AJ certainly
seems to back up by observations.

Later,
  Matt


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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 17:31:35
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Aerator & RIMS scorching + flow rates

George De Piro posted a nice wort aerator which'll work very well but
would be a bitch to try to get through the neck of a carboy.  Here's what I
use. The principle is like George's but it fits into a carboy: 
               | |<-------Racking cane
3/8"          || ||
x1/2"         || ||  /<---1/8" OD brass tubing 
copper       /     /      for air or O2 hose
reducer---->|    /  |
            |   |   |
                |     <----Minimize this gap- 
            +---+---+      mine's ~3/18"
            |  Air  |
            | Stone |
            +-------+

The bent, short brass tube is soldered to a hole in the reducer. I use a
cheap plastic air stone coupled to the brass tube with a short lenght of
vinyl tubing.  With a niceer SS airstone, I'd consider friction-fitting it
to large diameter brass tubing so the whole thing would be boilable.

- ----------  
Jeremy noted a RIMS scorching problem: 

>My element is only 48" and would be 5KW at 240V.  During my first
>batch I noticed a scorched smell in the wort during the first boost.
>In looking at the temperature differential across the heating chamber,
>it was ~11C...

That element isn't running at 240 VAC is it? <g> 
One question reguarding the high recirc dT across the heater:  did you
notice the brew's f.g. being higher than expected?  Since the mash fluid is
said to be enzyme rich, overheating the recirc too much above the desired
rest temp. would damage the enzymes and hence make a less fermentable wort.
 Although the recirc. is only at an elevated temp. for as long as it takes
to reach cooler temps. in the tun, it still worries me.  Maybe it's
overkill, but my controller kills power to the heater when the recirc.
temp. ar the exit is > 2 degF above the desired rest temp.  A happy
by-product is that I've never had a scorching problem even at low flows <
0.5 GPM.  Downside is the temp. boosts vary with the flow.

>2) I recirculate around the heater rather than through it for the first
>half gallon or so since a great deal of particulate matter comes
>through then and I believe from inspection of the burnt crud on the
>element...

Recircing around the heater sounds like a PITA to me.  Why not recirc
without powering the heater and power it when the recirc clears?  I
typically shoot for a mash-in temp. a bit lower than the rest temp. and
turn on the heater during mash-in- typically while the recirc is still cloudy.

>I am intrigued by Dion's flow rate figure.  I would love to have a
>flow rate like this because it takes me >10 minutes to do a complete
>recirculation which makes timing the boosts slightly tricky. 

IMHO, the high recirc flow needed by a typical RIMS is it's biggest
weakness.  More than a few HBers report stuck nonRIMS mashes during
sparging and here we RIMS users are wanting recirc flows much, much greater
than a sparging flow!  To get a "decent" Dt/dt (rate of mash temp change
between boosts) without scorching, you/ve gotta have a high flow.  

Reguarding timing the boosts: I don't worry about a slowish boost to
mashout since there should be very little enzyme activity during the boost.
 A slow or variable dT/dt *might* be a potiential problem with a
multi-temp. mashing regimen or a single infusion mash where the mash-in
temp is off.  My own feeling is that as long as the dT/dt rate > ~0.5
degF/min and the rate is fairly consistent mash-to-mash; I wouldn't worry.
My guess is that a consistent dT/dt between similiar mashes is more
important than the actual rate itself since there's be consistency in the
brews produced.

>I feel I have a good false bottom--it has never stuck on me. 

Don't get too hung up on the false bottom design.  I did some experimenting
with sight glasses installed above and below the old kitchen strainer type
false bottom (i.e. big % open area).  About 2/3 of the flow restriction was
in the bed and not in the false bottom and bottom-to-grain bed interface.
That's why, assumming one has a decent false bottom or manifold, I agree
with Kyle's suggestion in a previous HBD post that limiting the grain bed
height is a good way to increase flow.  Hopefully, an automatic stirrer I'm
building will also work...




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Date: 9 Mar 98 16:22:01 MST (Mon)
From: ddunn at talismanospam.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: the slow-mead myth

Lars <skyking at e193.ryd.student.liu.se> responded to my opinion that mead
should not need long aging times to become palatable:

> I would like you to enlighten me what everybody seem to make wrong...

It's not "everybody"...a lot of folks are able to make meads that are ready
very quickly and that don't have off-tastes even when young.  But there are
enough people who haven't had this sort of experience that there is a per-
sistent myth that meads take multiple years.  

>...I
> can't say I'm a experienced mead maker, but when I did a mead it took
> quite a time to carbonate. It took even longer to mellow tastes and I
> would say it hasn't done that yet.

Slow carbonation in mead is often the result of a long fermentation/
clearing period, where the yeast start to go dormant and a lot fall out so
that it takes a while to get enough of a population going again to prime
the mead.  The other cause is that with a strong mead you may be pushing
the alcohol tolerance of the yeast.  These two factors can work together.

The need to mellow tastes is of more concern, but we'd have to dive into
trying to analyze the tastes before it became clear whether it's a young
mead taste _vs_ an off-taste.  This is difficult, although there is one
particular off-taste that people can generally agree on--they tend to call
it "mouthwash" or "Listerine".  That one is definitely a fault that can
be avoided by choice of yeast and reasonable fermentation temperatures.

The three main culprits for off-tastes that take a while to age out are
an inappropriate yeast, excessive nutrient, and too-high fermentation
temperatures.  (And yes, I've committed all of these sins myself.  I had a
pomegranate melomel that took over two years to be reasonably drinkable.)

Incidentally, a mead must can benefit from oxygen when getting started,
every bit as much as a beer wort can.  It's a much better way to get a
quick fermentation than trying to force it by dumping in a bunch of
nutrient or pushing the temperature up.

>...Mr Dunn also states that there
> should be no difference between straight meads and methegiln since the
> spices aren't fermentable, but doesn't the spices need time to mellow?

Yes, but it also takes a bit for the honey character to mellow.  In methe-
glins, it depends on what herbs/spices you're using.  It also depends on
personal tastes.  Cardamom, for example, can be pretty assertive in a young
metheglin.  If you like the spice, you'll like the metheglin when it's
young; otherwise you'll want more time for it to mellow.

Still, I think your statement is a reasonable generalization, that methe-
glins may take longer to mellow out.

> And for the newbie scaring part of long maturation times it should not
> be a problem - if you're going to make mead you have to be patient
> anyway due to long fermentation times...

Yes, but it's a matter of degree.  You can't expect mead to finish on a
beer schedule, but it should be a matter of weeks-to-months, not a matter
of years.  Once somebody is used to making beer, and has built up a bit of
supply, it might be only a minor annoyance to think that a carboy will be
tied up until May or June, but it's quite different to think that it could
be tied up until some time in the year 2000.

But really, I want people to understand that mead can be made so that it
doesn't *require* long aging to be rid of *faults*.
- ---
Dick Dunn       ddunn, domain talisman.com       Boulder County, Colorado  USA
   ...Mr. Natural says, "Use the right tool for the job."


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---