---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Bottling tanks & primings/decoction efficiency/protein rests (George_De_Piro)
  RE: PH meters (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Maximizing Hop Aroma (Charles Burns)
  Responses David Smith & George Hanson (Bruce Daniels)
  Invitation for Mudbugs (Sherry Heflin)
  Puffy Eye Allergy ("Douglas P. Keith")
  Jake & other on pH and temp ("John S. Thomas")
  Extract Answer/mudbugs/All Grain Question ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Lactic acid for Stouts. (Dan Cole)
  Re: Priming (Cookie Monster)
  Labels (Mark Weaver)
  Re: PH meters (David Elm)
  re:lager with wrong malt (Charles Burns)
  Re: Pizza Pans (irajay)
  green film on racking tube ("Paul E. Lyon")
  Using Jalapenos (Jack & Chris Duncan)
  bleach & metals (Jon Macleod)
  Reviving tired yeast (David Sherfey)
  More converting kegs info (Wheeler)
  bottling out of fermenters; mudbugs (kathy)
  blow-off tube vs. larger primary fermenter (Amy West)
  Golden Promise Malt (brewer)
  Clinitest / Brettanomyces (Kyle Druey)
  Repositionable labels (Michael Satterwhite)
  Acadians not Arcadians (DOUGWEISER)
  Williams Mashing System (Martin Brown)
  Marris Otter; Malt quality (ensmingr)
  Crawdads, 135F Rest ( STEVE   GARRETT)
  difficult adjuncts ("Ray Estrella")
  checker pH meters ("Ray Estrella")
  Ball valves in aluminum ("Jim Hodge")
  Re: RIMS Construction/Mash Stirrer ("Rick Calley")




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:34:12 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Bottling tanks & primings/decoction efficiency/protein rests

     Hi all,
     

     The annual "poor mix in the bottling tank" question has bloomed 

     recently, so I'll post something that I wrote a while back.
     

     My friend Bill Coleman gave me this idea:  Corny kegs are the 
perfect 

     bottling tanks!  Although I keg and counter-pressure bottle most of 
my 

     beers, there are a few styles that I believe taste much better when 

     bottle conditioned (HefeWeizen being one of them).
     

     The best method I have found to bottle beer in a sanitary and 

     oxygen-free manner is to use a corny keg as the bottling tank.
     

     Sanitize your keg (I take mine apart EVERY time, and boil all the 

     small parts.  I then scrub the keg, rinse it, iodophor it, then 
rinse 

     it with boiled water).  Reassemble the keg and purge it with CO2 
(this 

     is best done by filling the tank with sterile water and pushing it 
out 

     with CO2 pressure, but pressurizing/depressurizing/repeat works a 
bit, 

     too).
     

     Sterilize all your keg fittings (I have found that the plastic 
liquid 

     and gas fittings CAN be boiled!) and tubing (which can also be 

     boiled).
     

     Open the keg, put in your priming syrup (wort, sugar-syrup, Kr
usen, 

     whatever) and seal the keg.  Attach the liquid-out fitting and the 
CO2 

     fitting.  Run a hose from your fermenter to the liquid-out fitting 

     (secure with a clamp to avoid air pickup).  Transfer the young beer 
to 

     the keg.  DON'T START A SIPHON BY ATTACHING A HOSE TO THE GAS 
FITTING 

     ON THE KEG AND SUCKING:  you will end up with a lungful of CO2.  It 
is 

     painful and dangerous to inhale!
     

     I push beer out of fermenters by using CO2 pressure.  Fit a two-hole
 

     orange carboy cap to the fermenter.  Put the racking cane in one 
hole, 

     and GENTLY blow CO2 into the other hole.  Once beer starts to flow I
 

     let gravity take over.  1-5 psi is all you need.  Don't clamp the 

     carboy cap to the carboy; if the pressure gets too high it will act 
as 

     a safety valve and pop off.
     

     Once the keg is full, remove the liquid fitting, purge the head 
space 

     with CO2 (just in case), apply enough pressure to seal the keg and 

     shake the heck out of it.  You have now thoroughly mixed your Speise
 

     (primings) into the beer in a most sanitary and anaerobic manner!
     

     Now just reconnect the liquid-out fitting and attach the hose to 
your 

     bottle-filling device.  Fill the bottles, pushing the beer with 1-5 

     psi of CO2.
     

     The real beauty of this system is if you want to bottle part of a 

     large batch and keg the other part.  Simply fill your bottles, then 

     refill the keg, and either fill more bottles or seal the keg!  You 

     only have to sanitize all the equipment once to both bottle and keg!

     

     I hope all that was clear...
     

     Priming the entire batch at one time (like most people do) is FAR 

     superior to adding primings to each individual bottle.  Adding 

     primings to each bottle is a sure way to spend a *lot* of time 

     screwing up your beer!  It is likely that you will have noticeable 

     variation in the carbonation from bottle to bottle (because of 
errors 

     adding primings), and sanitation is much more difficult to maintain.

     -----------------------------
     Capt. Mark mentions that his mash efficiency increased tremendously 

     after switching mills and decoction mashing.  He was wondering if 
the 

     decoction could be responsible for the increase.
     

     I have, on a number of occasions, measured the wort gravity before 
and 

     after a decoction.  It never is all that different (max. ~3% 
higher).  

     That is a testament to the fact that today's malts are 
well-modified.  

     I have done this using all kinds of malts (pale ale, Pilsner, 

     Munich...).
     

     The new mill is much more likely to be responsible for such a large 

     increase in efficiency.
     ----------------------------
     Kyle is still confused about protein rests.  He had believed that a 

     consensus was reached.
     

     No it wasn't!  I don't think it will be, either.  There are so many 

     homebrewing books and older texts that talk about under-modified 
malts 

     needing a p-rest that this will never go away.  My _opinion_, at the
 

     moment, is that they are unnecessary; modern malts all seem to be 

     quite well-modified.  Others are free to think differently, and I 

     reserve the right to change my opinion when presented with new info!

     

     If you are still confused about the need for a protein rest, join 
the 

     club!  I like Al K's attitude toward stuff like this:  try brewing 
the 

     same recipe twice; once with a p-rest, once without.  See which you 

     like better.  Simple!
     

     Have fun!
     

     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:39:01 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: PH meters

>Currently it is not working and I was thinking
>of replacing the probe (about $20US from Williams) but would like to
get some
>opinions on whether or not this would be throwing good money after bad.
>If it is reasonably accurate for mash PH measurement would I need to
correct
>for temp since it does not indicate any automatic correction?  If so,
where
>would I find a correction procedure.  Or, as I asked earlier, should I
just
>junk it and stick to strips?

The little bit I know about PH meters is what I information I have
gathered by reading everything I can find about them.  I also have
purchased a couple and am using my second one now.

What I can discern is that you need to think about the PH probe as a
battery - that is,  it wears out,  gets used up,  does not last forever,
ages, etc..  This is also the reason you should calibrate it before use.
  
It's apparently a fact of PH probe karma that they just are not
permanent.  Now,  the useful life can be affected by how you treat the
probe,  rinse it in distilled water,  keep the glass membrane wetted as
much as possible and other obfuscated rules.

I tried the papers and decided they were a joke.  (Besides, I am
partially colorblind)

The way you decide if your probe is any good is to use a calibrating
solution, one at PH 7.0, and the other at the higher or lower end of the
range (4.0 or 10.0) that you will be reading.   The solutions have
buffers in them (this means they are reluctant to change PH and can be
used as calibrating solutions)  I have purchased the newest meter from
Omega for $35 dollars, but they charged me for shipping & handling $7.xx
or so, can't remember.  Seems high,  wonder if they fondled it or what.
I haven't used it long enough to find out how long it will last, but it
seems well made and has calibration adjustments,  so I would not pay
this much for a meter that could not be calibrated,  however the
accuracy once calibrated should be good enough to use for homebrewing.

All the probe life comments I have read say you can reasonable expect 6
months to a year,  more if you are lucky.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 98 08:21 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Maximizing Hop Aroma

Making a standard American Pale Ale, given an ounce of Cascade hops (whole 
cones), which of the following 3 methods should result in the most hop 
aroma? I've been experiencing loss of aroma characteristics also (great at 2 
weeks old, weak at 6 weeks old - in the keg). Is this due to the method used 
to produce the aroma in the first place?

1. Late addition, last 10 minutes of boil.
2. Knockout, then steep in hot wort for 10 minutes
3. Dry Hop for 10 days in secondary.

Or is there another secret? Which method both maximizes aroma and also 
produces a stable aroma that wont disappear after a few weeks in the keg?

Charley (looking for aromatics) in N. Cal



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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:13:40 -0500
From: Bruce Daniels <bdaniels at hamptons.com>
Subject: Responses David Smith & George Hanson

> 
> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:25:46 EST
> From: DonaldS107 <DonaldS107 at aol.com>
> Subject: Why is my beer so dark
> 
> I am on my second batch, the beer is great but am baffled by the darker color
> that I am getting.
> Thanks,
> 
> Donald Smith
> 
Don - there are a few reasons extract beer come out dark - and yes,
carmalizing the sugars is one.  This is partly due to the fact that you
are only boiling a small portion of wort.  Try getting a larger pot and
boiling as much water with the extract that you can. This will help
lighten the color

Bruce

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:54:14 +0000
> From: ghanson at widomaker.com
> Subject: Foam from Kegging
> 

> methods to carbonate, but the last was carbonated at 12psi  at  40F.  In
> a standard English pint 'bitter-style' pub glass (that is clean) I
> get about 1/2" of beer and the rest foam. 
> TIA,
> George Hanson
> 
George - im trying to remember this from the top of my head. I think you
way overcarbonated your beer.  At 40 degrees, you need only about 6 lb
pressure to produce 1.9 or so volumes.  This is even a little high for
English bitter.  Unhook the keg ans -slowley- bleed off the presure to
flatten the beer a little.  This takes time so patience..

Bruce


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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:30:02 -0600
From: Sherry Heflin <sheflin at shreve.net>
Subject: Invitation for Mudbugs

Hi all,
Amazing all the replies I got over my post about mudbugs. If your ever
in Shreveport La. give me a call and we'll wip up a pot of them critters
and I usually have at least a couple varieties of Dilla Brew on tap.
Like most I could talk about brewing for hours. A question: I made a
Scottish Ale the other day and stepped up the yeast to a half-gallon to
be split among two carboys. Well I only came up with about 8.5-9.0
gallons and instead of decanting off most of the liquid from my starter
dumped most of it into the short carboy. Needless to say it went nuts.
It had activety in less than an hour and proceeded to turn a muddy
lookin mess. It appeared to ferment out in about 36 hours. After four
days its beginning to clear up somewhat but was wondering what effects
this could have on the finished product.
                                           Bodie


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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:13:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Douglas P. Keith" <keithd at holmes.uchastings.edu>
Subject: Puffy Eye Allergy


Sometimes when I drink certain kinds of beer my right eye puffs up.  It 
has happened from Full Sail Winter and a certain batch of homebrew also.  
Has anyone else experienced this same phenomenon, or does anyone know 
what I can do about it?  I was tested for allergies and they didn't 
really find much.

Thanks.





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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:33:55 -0800
From: "John S. Thomas" <jthomas at iinet.com>
Subject: Jake & other on pH and temp

Jake and others mentioned pH meters, ATC, temperature and refractormeters.
The life of an electrode at ambient temp is 1 to 3 years, at 90c (194f) it
is less than 4 months, at 120c (248f) the electrode will only last one
month.   This is why when buying a pH meter a detachable electrode along
with quality is important.  Hanna's, Checker 2 and 3 will withstand temp of
80c (176f).  The Checker 1 is rated at 50c (122f).  Jake replace the
electrode with HI1207 or 1208 priced at $28.00.  The Checker 1 is a good
meter.  These meters (2 and 3) sell for $54.90. The Piccolo Plus has ATC and
is rated at 70c+. This meter sells for $155 and the electrode is amplified.
The imported refractometer we have available needs a drop of liquid to test
SG and by the time the drop is placed on the window it is usually at ambient
temperatures and is not an issue. The price is $90 bucks and the meter is
imported from China. US models sell for $300 plus.
John S. Thomas
Hobby Beverage Equipment
909-676-2337
jthomas at Minibrew.com





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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:47:16 -0800
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Extract Answer/mudbugs/All Grain Question

DonaldS107 <DonaldS107 at aol.com> asks:

> Why is my beer so dark?

Canned extract is notorious for yielding copper or darker
colors, especially if it's old (and you can bet the imports
are).  Unfortunately, dry extract can also give you darker
brews, even though it keeps better.

I have always had great luck with Alexanders Pale (syrup)
malt extract which is sold around here in barrier bags or BYO Bucket.
I would avoid the cans, but that's a luxury I have being less
than a hour's drive from the factory.

I have also found that I can get a much lighter brew since
I switched to full wort volume boils.  For reasons that perhaps
the chemists among us know (I'm an EE, 'nuff said) boiling
your extract in only a gallon or two of water darkens the mixture
more than if you can use 6 gallons or so.  I have brewed some
beautiful pale lagers (and ales) using only Alexanders and
plenty of water.
***********************************************************
SPICY MUDBUGS
Despite Don's clarification, I always thought these were
CRAWDADS.  By any other name, they still sound good,
and I wish I knew where to get a mess of 'em out here
on the left coast.
***********************************************************

I'm relatively new to all-grain (just bought my MM and a sack
of UK pale malt (hope it wasn't one of the crappy ones))
and having lots of fun getting my extraction and yields
within 25% of predicted.  Im sure I just need practice and
good record-keeping.

My question though, is about batch-sparging and no-sparging.
With these methods, is it necessary to throttle the sparge
flows down to ~1 hour for 6.5 gallons, or can I let it run
full speed?  It seems intuitive, but I'm in no hurry to replicate
my first batch where I screwed up and got 1.032 out of 10
pounds of grain.

Thanks all,
Randy in Modesto


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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:07:49 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Lactic acid for Stouts.

There has been a lot of good commentary on the use of lactic acid in
Berliners, what about the use of lactic acid (what a lot of us use to
acidify our sparge water) in stouts for the Guinness "tang" ?

Anyone tried this and have a good feel for the amount needed in a 5 gallon
batch to add just the right taste?

I know, I know, Guinness gets their tang from lactic-soured and then
pasteurized beer, but what if we want to keep it simple?

TIA,
Dan Cole



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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:21:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Cookie Monster <snewton at io.com>
Subject: Re: Priming

From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Priming,Saltiness,Bugs

>potential for irregular carbonations as you have noted.  It takes
>less time and is better for your beer if you add the priming
>solution to each bottle and then add the beer directly to the
>bottle. I also suggest you use the priming solution method

Can you please detail how it will take less time to add priming to
the individual bottles vs. batch priming.  Please give detailed timelines
for each step in the procedures, comparing them directly.  Include
in your timeline the steps involved in making the actively fermenting
solution you describe. Also, detail (and include in your timeline
above) your exact procedures for measuring and adding the solution
to an accuracy that assures consistent carbonation to within better
tolerances than batch priming. Show the results from the side-by-side
experiments of the two methods how much improvement in consistentcy
your per-bottle solution method gives.

>described here which has active yeast in it. This further
>avoids oxidation, since the active yeast can immediately
>take up some of the oxygen.
Please detail your testing procedures on the capped and carbonated
bottlings showing oxygen content remaining after yeast activity.
Compare and contrast those results with same as detailed in Fix and Fix.

cm
- -- 
 The world is so full
  Of a number of things
 I'm sure we should all
  Be as happy as kings.


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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:22:56 -0500
From: Mark Weaver <HeadBrewer at eci.com>
Subject: Labels

Jim,

> How many of you make make your own labels for your brew, or would if
you
> could only get the things off when you rebottled?  If you are using
office
> address labels (Avery type) you know this is all but impossible.
> If anyone is interested in these labels DeskTopLabels can be reached
at
> www.desktoplabels.com or phone 1-800-241-9730, Fax 612-531-5764. My
point of
> contact was marty_marion at qm.meyers.com

Not to sound like a jerk, why not just keg? This is one of the minor
reasons why I(and I think some brewers) switch over to kegging.
What I used to do was to use some Elmer's water based, pliable,
water-soluble, washable glue. It was in a clear plastic bottle,
but the glue was blue (NOT THE WHITE STUFF!!!). It is water soluble,
so soaking in plain water removed the label easily. I printed out
the label on my printer, whacked it up with an x-acto or scissors,
applied a few drops of this glue in the corners, spread it around
a little bit and voila, instant label! Takes a little longer, but
then you can have a custom label shape, a neck ring etc.......

Prost!
Mark
- --
Mark Weaver - Brewer on the Loose
HeadBrewer at eci.com
75'02 / 72tii
"No, I don't brew heads....."
Resume http://markweaver.com2tom.com
Web Site: http://markweaver.com2tom.com/home.html




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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:35:37 -0700
From: David Elm <delm at cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: PH meters

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 16:26:25 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: PH meters
John Wilkinson asks:
>There has been discussion lately of PH meters and AJ and others have said a
>good PH meter would be 200+ US$.  I have a $40US meter I bought from
>Williams Brewing a few years ago.  It is a Hanna Checker 1.  It doesn't say
>anything about temp correction.  Is it worth using at all or should I just
>ditch it and use PH strips?  Currently it is not working and I was thinking
>of replacing the probe (about $20US from Williams) but would like to get some
>opinions on whether or not this would be throwing good money after bad.
>If it is reasonably accurate for mash PH measurement would I need to correct
>for temp since it does not indicate any automatic correction?  If so, where
>would I find a correction procedure.  Or, as I asked earlier, should I just
>junk it and stick to strips?

With the Checker 1, and other meters that do not have a temperature probe,
the pH of the sample is read at room temperature.  I think you need to do
the same with pH papers.  For better instructions than printed on the box
of the checker 1 visit http://www.hannainst.com/products/electro.elecguid.htm
(electrode maintenance and use).  I used a checker 1 for a year, did not
brew for 1.5 years and then had lots of problems with the meter.  I too 
probably needed a new probe but decided to buy a Hanna 8424 with temperature
compensation, instead.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Elm  delm at cadvision.com  (403)932-1626 888-660-6035 fax:(403)932-7405
   Box 7, Site 16, RR 2, Glendale Rd., Cochrane, Alberta, T0L 0W0, Canada



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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 98 13:24 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re:lager with wrong malt

Nathan asks about using pale ale malt for a dunkel.

A dunkel should be made with mostly munich malt, which in fact IS a pale ale 
malt for all intents. Its kilned at a higher temperature (andl longer) 
giving it more melanoidin content and a bit darker color. Try to get what's 
called melanoidin malt or Dark Munich for a dunkel. (right dave?)

Charley (of chocolate Dunkel infamy) in N. Cal



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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:41:32 +0000
From: irajay at ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Pizza Pans

I have been following this thread and wonder if you would be so kind 
as to tell me how you use the inverted pizza pan for straining out 
the hops.

Thanks,
 Ira


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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:43:22 -0500
From: "Paul E. Lyon" <lyon at osb1.wff.nasa.gov>
Subject: green film on racking tube

I have noticed that after soaking my racking cane in mild chlorine
solutions, the tubing portion has a green residue on it.  I can only see it
when I run my finger nail up the plastic and it scrapes off.  Does anyone
know what this is?  Is it time for a new tube, I have used this one for over
3 years.


Thanks,
 P.E.L.
 - lyon(SPAMLESS) at crocker.com  -

remove (SPAMLESS) to reply please....





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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:43:16 -0500
From: Jack & Chris Duncan <duncan at cardina.net>
Subject: Using Jalapenos

Hello everyone,

I have searched the HBD archives and Cats Meow for info on using jalapeno
peppers, without finding a complete answer.  Has anyone used these peppers,
had success using them, can say how many they used, AND how they used the
peppers?  

My guess would be that they are added to the secondary, but how many?
Should they be whole, or cut in half (with seeds removed), or ???? 

Since this is obviously our first batch using jalapenos, I am just looking
for an answer that would put us "in the ballpark".  

Thanks in advance for your help!

Jack and Chris Duncan (in Attica, MI)




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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 21:06:47 -0500
From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: bleach & metals

Sodium Hypochlorite (liquid bleach) is a basically unstable ompound. 
Its kinda like salt water with a chlorine atom temporarily crammed into
it.  This instability is why its such a good cleaner (along with the
fact the chlorine will react more readily with more stuff than just
about anything on the planet; right up there with oxygen).  The chlorine
is somewhat stabilized in the solution by a high pH.

Sodium hypochlorite will break down all on its own into salt water, and
chlorine gas.  Normally this happens so slowly you never notice.  Heat
will speed it up.  Metals (especially nickel, iron, and copper) are
really big catalyst for degradation too.  Like all catalysts, they don't
really take part in the reaction.  They merely "inspire" if you will. 
Therefore, bleach solutions will not directly harm your stainless steel
or your copper cooler.

I did say directly, didn't I?   If you leave them soaking for long
periods, you will really be soaking in the leftover degradation
products;  salt water.  So go ahead and wash;  hypochlorite kills most
micro' organisms very rapidly.   Just don't soak.

Mike




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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:38:27 -0500
From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Reviving tired yeast

I have been lurking for awhile and now have a question for this august
group;

I have an ale yeast of unknown source that is not fermenting 1.050
starters made with it below 1.022.  The only culture I have is at the
bottom of a bottle of barleywine, which is the cause of the fermenting
problem.  Pale ales I have made with this yeast in the past fermented
nicely down to around 1.010, and I don't recall the yeast wimping out
even with dredge re-pitching occasionally.

The barleywine on top of this yeast is quite nice and I would like to
brew it again, but I would need to get the yeast back into shape before
doing this.  What are the procedures available (if any) to do this?

Thanks in advance for any help you folks have.

David Sherfey
Warwick, NY



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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:39:10 -0500
From: Wheeler <fwheeler at mciunix.mciu.k12.pa.us>
Subject: More converting kegs info


I just got to the Tuesday HBD and read Dave Draper's post.

"In #2662, Steve Rockey asks for some tips on converting kegs to
boilers.  I'll shamelessly plug my friend Eric Schoville's page on
his 3-tier system, which gives very full descriptions of what he did
and has a host of links to other folks' web pages on similar
conversions.  Taken together, they ought to cover nearly all the
bases.  Eric's URL is:

http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer/3tier.html"

Dave you are right, Eric covers almost everything and his is a great
source. The method I use has been mentioned only in passing by one site. I
don't want to take anything away from Eric or the others he cites but my
preferred method is to use an angle grinder to cut the top out of a keg.
The advantages that I see are: it is faster than other methods (15
minutes), safer (no broken blades), easier to clean up the inside of the
keg, quieter, and I don't have to pay someone else to do the work. I have
found that the local Home Depot has thin metal cutting blades for circular
saws, 7" metal abrasive blade by DeWalt, that work great on the angle
grinder after I remove the safety guard (OOPS, there goes my safety
argument!). 

Because I like to tinker and tweak the system, I also like to have
removable drains and valves rather than welded on parts so I drill holes
for these and attach them with gaskets and bulkhead like fittings.

Thanks for all your posts in the HBD and those of the many other experts
out there. Because of all the generously shared wisdom, people like me are
able to move from kit brewing to all grain brewing with less than a year's
experience. Some day I too will be making consistently good beer with a
little help from my friends.

Brewing is more than a way of life, it is a religion. 
And I brew religiously!


Red Wheeler
worshipping in Blue Bell, PA




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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:17:07 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: bottling out of fermenters; mudbugs

I also use Dave B's bottling directly from the secondary fermentor
(primary on ales ala Al K>).  I mix the 1/2 or 2/3rds c sugar with water
in pyrex and heat in the microwave to pastuerize, then top off with
product to get 1T/bottle (56T per 5gal batches of 12 oz bottles.  I add
(using small funnels) to the bottles and siphon away.  Reduces O2 and
infection sources.

Mudbugs....as a small boy in Kansas we would seine minnows out of the
cricks and get some crawdaddies.  One time we decided to boil up the
"crawdaddies' and were they ever mud tasting.  Our Kansas summer cricks
must not have the pristine waters of the lower Mississippi.  Maybe the
Meulbacher (sp) beer bot in KC, Missouri (Kansas was dry) lacked the
qualities of todays IPA's. As a kid I had to sneak the dribbles out of
spent bottles.

Cheers,  jim booth, lansing, mi



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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 09:27:00 EST
From: awest at george.m-w.com (Amy West)
Subject: blow-off tube vs. larger primary fermenter

I'd like to know what other brewers' opinions are about 
using a blow-off tube on a 5-gallon carboy primary fermenter
versus using a 6-gallon carboy primary fermenter with no blow-off.

I know that there will be people who are pro & con either way;
I'd like to know why: e.g. blow-off tube gets rid of some
unwanted by-products, 6-gallon carboy prevents loss of beer, etc.

- ---Amy West


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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:03:36 -0500
From: brewer at taconic.net
Subject: Golden Promise Malt

I recently purchased a couple of bags of Scotmalt Golden Promise malt.
After using it a couple of times I noticed there was more flour in the
grist than I was used to (using a JSP fixed roller malt mill at about
125 RPM). I also came up a little light on my starting gravity. I'm
curious to know if this is due to the high modification of the product
or possible poor storage. Not being able to find much info on Brewing
Products LTD. I told the distributor I was looking for a malt similar to 

Bairds or Muntons which I'm used to, they suggested I use Chariot
instead. Going against their recommendation I figured the extra $2.00 a
sack should get me a higher quality product. Now I'm wondering if I
might have made a mistake. If anyone's had experience with either Golden 

Promise(Scotmalt 1) or Chariot (Scotmalt 2) I'd like to hear your
comments.
Thanks,
Pete Bruno
Hudson NY
brewer at taconic.net




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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:59:11 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Clinitest / Brettanomyces

Clinitest

>Clinitest reads low for the major sugars left after fermentation.
>Maltotriose typically forms 10% of wort gravity in an all malt wort.eg.
>1.050 wort has ~5 SG points of maltotriose.The lowest measure on
>Clinitest is 0.25%, corresponding to about 4SG points of maltotriose as
>being the minimum resolution for this sugar. One of the most common
>fermentation disorders is an inability to ferment this sugar. Clinitest
>will not normally detect this. In addition, as one does not know the
>final sugar composition, a reading on Clinitest of 0.25% could mean very
>different things since it does not measure the different sugars to the
>same degree of accuracy.

Another way to look at this is that Clinitest will detect fermentation
of the other 90% of your wort sugars.  If your yeast will not ferment
the remaining 10% then what can you do about it?  Seems that knowing
something about that 90% is much better than knowing nothing at all,
which is what the hydrometer tells you.  If Clinistest measures out at <
1/4%, and you still have remaining maltotriose, then you are probably
done anyway!  What am I missing here?  Still waiting for one of our
pointy headed HBDers to come of with that maltotriose test...

Brettanomyces

There has been some talk lately about Brettanomyces.  I could never
understand how someone enjoys an aroma that is described as barnyard,
horsey, horse blanket, or sweaty.  I grew up raising animals, and I
don't know about you, but I sure don't want my beer to smell like a
sweaty horse blanket.  Yes, I have tried these beers, Boon, Mort Subite,
Lindemans, etc., but do not particularly like them.  Guess my beer
tastes are just not sophistocated enough to to really enjoy the smell
of  barnyard in my beer.  I realize the Belgians go at great lengths to
make these beers, but I'll take a German Lager over 'em any day!  Anyone
got a a Dopperlmarzen recipe?  If I start now, this one ought to ready
just in time for football season.

Kyle Druey
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:38:03 -0600
From: Michael Satterwhite <satterwh at weblore.com>
Subject: Repositionable labels

For those of you looking for a label that can easily be removed, you might
want to look at Avery's "Remove 'em" line of laser labels. One of them is
designed for a diskette, which makes it a good size for beer labels.

Although they are designed for a laser printer, they run great in an ink
jet, which enables creation of colored labels. After you serve the beer,
they easily and completely peel off.

- ---Michael


- ---Michael
"Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech"
http://www.weblore.com/soapbox


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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:37:56 EST
From: DOUGWEISER <DOUGWEISER at aol.com>
Subject: Acadians not Arcadians

To David R. Burley and his statement "I would have thought with all that
Arcadian (Cajun) influence it would be pronounced as "crayfish" in Louisiana
and surrounds.":
   The fine Cajun folks in Louisiana and surrounds (Acadians) might take
exception to being called Ancient Greeks (Arcadians).
Doug in Winnetka, CA


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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:42:52 -0800
From: Martin Brown <martinbrown at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Williams Mashing System

Steve Krause asked about others experiences with the Williams Mashing
System. I've had this system for a year and a half and love it. It moved me
from extract to all-grain brewing for a modest expense and has improved the
quality of my ales tremendously. It's the best single purchase I've made
for brewing. 

Just a couple of tips for using the system:
Keep it clean! Even though you'll boil everything that comes out of the
system, it takes just a few minutes to rinse everything with water right
after you finish sparging. The false bottom tends to get cracked barley
caught in it, which can get kinda mildewy looking if you store it for a few
weeks. I use a long bamboo skewer stick to poke out the crud an hour or so
after brewing. 

Keep those little parts! The little plastic thumbscrew that holds the false
bottom in place is easily lost and not so easily replaced. Williams puts an
extra one with the kit, but lose both and you're screwed. I always put the
little buggers back on the base after removing the false bottom. There are
also small rubbery inserts to the metal sparger-sprayer that don't seem to
stay put. If one of them falls out in your mash, you'll have a heck of a
time finding it and your sparger won't function properly. Really jam those
babies in the metal ends and keep your careful eye on them when you
assemble and disassemble your system on brewing day.  

Steve, I think you'll really like your gift. It's a very good system and
should make your beers better. 



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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:39:35 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: Marris Otter; Malt quality

Greetings, 

Regarding the recent discussion on Marris Otter malt ...

First, it should be noted that Marris Otter is a variety of barley that
is malted by various firms.  Apparently, one malting firm has dumped
some inferior product on the U.S. market.  However, some malts made from
Marris Otter barley have good reputations and are currently used by
Adnams, Brakspear's, Cain's, and Young's -- all reputable English
brewers.  Marris Otter malt is also used by the Scotch Whisky industry,
in particular by Glengoyne and Macallan.  (M. Jackson, 1995 "A Trend
that goes against the grain", Malt Advocate, Summer 1995;
http://realbeer.com/maltadvocate/ ).

Regarding the recent discussion on malt quality available to homebrewers
 ...

My experience here in Syracuse is very different from that described by
many.  In fact, the very same malts that are used by the local
microbrewery (M&F Pale Ale Malt; Middle Ages) and the local brewpub
(various Briess malts; Empire Brewpub) are available in my local
homebrew shop.  Moreover, the shopkeeper tells me that he now has more
malt varieties available than ever before.  He attributes this to the
increase in numbers of brewpubs and microbreweries, which increases
demand for different varieties of malt. 

I look forward to hearing about the situation in other parts of the
country (or world).

Cheerio!

Peter A. Ensminger
ensmingr at npac.syr.edu


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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:45:34, -0500
From: sdginc at prodigy.com ( STEVE GARRETT)
Subject: Crawdads, 135F Rest

Dave Burley says:
> Donald Smith says that being from the Old South he says
>"crawfish" not "crayfish" for dem good eatin' spice bugs.

Well, growing up in Kansas, we called them "crawdads" or
"crawdaddys". Couldn't find the word in my Webster's
American Heritage dictionary, but the MS Word spelling 
checker recognizes "crawdad"! 

And Brian Thumm from Baton Rouge says: 
>Most people pull the meat out of the tail 
>with their teeth, but one must not forget 
>the yummy stuff (guts) in 
>the main body of the mudbug.  
>Suck the head ... squeeze the tip!

And we never dreamed of eating them. 
We used them as bait to catch big ol' bullheads (catfish). 
Even for that, we didn't try to feed the fish the guts, 
we ripped the tail off of the live crawdad,  
pulled the meat out (not with our teeth)
and stuck that on the hook! 
Even a bottom-of-the-muddy-crick, 
scum-sucking bullhead has his culinary limits!
(No offense against Loosianans intended.)
Of course, given a good'nuf beer 
(or is that enuf good beer?), 
I've found that I can eat purt near anything. 

Meanwhile...back to our broadcast...
About that worthless mash rest at 135F,
is it really that different from the holy rest
at 140F? 

Steve Garrett
Englewood, Colorado
sdginc at prodigy.com



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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:38:12 -0600
From: "Ray Estrella" <ray-estrella at email.msn.com>
Subject: difficult adjuncts

  Hello to all,
Mike Vachow tells Jason that,

>It's nigh on impossible for homebrewers to reproduce commercially made
>American pilseners like Rolling Rock (Budweiser, Coors, etc.) brewed as
>they are with significant quantities of grains like corn and rice that
>are very difficult for homebrewers to control

I do not know why he would think that way.  Flaked Maize is very easy
to work with.  I have used it up to 25% of grain bill with no problems.
Rice is available in syrup, and dry form to let extract brewers get in on
the adjunct fun.
  I have been playing hit-and-miss with the HBD lately, and do not have
Jason's original post.  If you are out there Jason e-mail me with your
brewing preferences (all-grain or extract) and I will get you a couple
of recipes.





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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:32:21 -0600
From: "Ray Estrella" <ray-estrella at email.msn.com>
Subject: checker pH meters

  Hello to all,
John Wilkinson asks about his pH meter,

>I have a $40US meter I bought from Williams Brewing a few years ago.
>It is a Hanna Checker 1.  It doesn't say anything about temp correction.
>Is it worth using at all or should I just ditch it and use PH strips?  If
it is
>reasonably accurate for mash PH measurement would I need to correct
>for temp since it does not indicate any automatic correction?  If so, where
>would I find a correction procedure?

  I used a Checker for two years, and while it does not have all the bells
and whistles of $200+ meters, it does work fine for what we need.
One thing to remember is to buy a couple bottles of standard buffer
solution and calibrate your meter every time that you use it.  As far as
temperature compensation, I used to subtract .15 from a reading at
152f .
  I would also recommend getting the 11/12 1996 issue of Brewing Techniques
and read the excellent article by our own A.J. deLange.

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

****** Never Relax, Constantly Worry....have a better Homebrew ******






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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:11:09 -0600
From: "Jim Hodge" <jdhodge at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Ball valves in aluminum

Dan Fox wrote:

"I recently purchased a 15 gallon 3004 aluminum Vollrath pot. I understand
that 3004 is some kind of aluminum alloy, and I was wondering if it could
be
welded. If so, does anyone know of a capable welder in the Olympia/Tacoma
area? Has anyone successfully installed a drain valve with compression 
fittings into one of these pots? Thanks."

Welding's not my deal, so I'll leave that to others who are more
knowledgeable, but I have installed compression fittings in both aluminum
and stainless steel pots.  What you want is known as a bulkhead fitting. 
Both Swagelock and Parker make a variety of these guys with various
combinations of compression fittings and NPT threads on one or both ends. 
Pick one that's going to be compatible with your valve.

Aluminum is relatively easy to drill, but the best policy is still to start
with a small diameter drill, make a pilot hole and then work your way up,
with larger and larger diameter drills, until you get the appropriate
diameter (2-3 steps is generally about right).  Sluicing up you drills with
cutting fluid helps a bunch here and if you don't have any around, I use
WD-40 for an emergency back-up.

With the hole made, the trick to installing the bulkhead fitting is to do
this such that it is going to be leak-free.  This is especially difficult
as you're doing the installation on a curved surface and the nuts on the
bulkhead fitting are not designed to provide a hermetic seal.  So what
you'll need to do is make a gasket.  I have cut gaskets (washers really)
out of sheets of Teflon or polyethylene and have a preference for Teflon as
it is more durable and temperature-resistant.  Place the gasket on the
inside of the pot, back it up with a stainless steel washer, and tighten
the nut on the bulkhead fitting down on it.  Be careful not to overtighten
or the Teflon gasket will start deforming and you may lose your seal.

If you have questions on sources of any of this stuff, email me.

Jim Hodge



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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:39:16 -0000
From: "Rick Calley" <rcalley at pressenter.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS Construction/Mash Stirrer 


>        The article lists a bunch of RIMS related web sites and possible
>     sources for RIMS related hardware/components.  To say the least, I've
>     been doing a lot of surfing and research the past few weeks!
>     Fascinating!!  And I'd like to thank all of those individuals who were
>     kind enough to provide info about their own RIMS on the web.

Since my page was one of those listed, I'll say you're welcome.

>        So, my first question is, about how much cash are we talking about
>     for setting up just the one vessel, converted to the actual RIMS?  The
>     rest of the system can be added on piece by piece, correct?

You are correct.  In most cases the actual RIMS portion of the brewery is the
mash tun.  You will need 2 more vessels though (as I'm sure you've figured out
by now), a hot liquor tank to heat your sparge water and a boil kettle.  It's
hard to say how much it would cost to build a RIMS mash tun.  If you want to
build it from all stainless steel components with lots of super-whamodyne
electronic controls, it could cost several hundred dollars EASILY.  If you're
willing to scrounge around in surplus shops and settle for plastic, brass and
copper components, I'm guessing you could easily come in under $100.  Since
you've investigated the RIMS pages listed in BT you must have seen CD
Pritchard's page.  His system is remarkably  *ahem* "thrifty."

>        Secondly, are there any discernible advantages to incorporating a
>     mash stirring paddle into the RIMS?  I can remember encountering only
>     one such system, and it was offered for sale by a professional outfit.
>      I don't remember seeing a paddle on any homegrown RIMS.

Since I don't have a mixer on my RIMS I can't say whether it is a valuable
addition to one's system.  Rumor has it that CD is working on such a device.
>From my experience I can say that I probably haven't missed out by not having a
mixer.  I get good extraction rates and the temperature boosts take place in a
reasonable amount of time.  My gut feeling is that I'd rather not go mucking
about in my grain bed once it has established a good "set" for filtration.

(I'm heavily medicated with antibiotics and narcotics right now as I'm having my
wisdom teeth pulled on Monday AM.  So bear with me on this.)

Near as I can tell, the biggest advantage of using a mash mixer (apologies to
anyone with trademarks or patents) is the mixing in of the heat applied to the
mash.  Since a RIMS system uses the recirulation of heated liquid, flowing
through the mash, the heat is evenly distributed throughout the mash and needs
no stirring.  If you were mashing in a kettle on a stove burner, you would want
to stir the mash to mix the heat in.

Good Brewing!
- --Rick

Rick Calley  (heavily medicated in)  Red Wing, MN  USA
email: rcalley at pressenter.com
webpage: http://www.pressenter.com/~rcalley



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---