---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Source for raw barley ("George De Piro")
  Stuck Fermentation Again?? ("Gregg Soh")
  Plugging bung hole, Talking thermometers, and Tap cleaners (keith  christiann)
  cleaner (Roger Whyman)
  Cornelius kegs (Anthony Capocelli)
  Re: Williams Mash System (irajay)
  aeration (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Makkolli Recipe (kbjohns)
  RE: Maximizing Hop Aroma (Pvrozanski)
  jalapeno ales (mwmccaw)
  RE: Hop Aroma & Lactic Acids for Stouts (Jeff Grey)
  Labels & commercial beers (Samuel Mize)
  FW: Lactic Acid for Stouts (johnk)
  Re: Puffy Eye Allergy (Jeff Renner)
  How soon we forget, priming ("David R. Burley")
  Wyeast #1187 Ringwood or Norwich? ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Warm beer goes bad? (Cava Christopher)
  Welding Aluminum (John Palmer)
  Re: RE Malt Extract Database ("Brian Dixon")
  EBC vs L ? ("Brian Dixon")
  The Great Priming Controversy (bob_poirier)
  priming with juice concentrate? (Dan Szemenyei)" <iamelvis at esu.edu>
  Crayfish, crawfish, crawdads ("David R. Burley")
  First All-Grain Batch (Michael Lamparello)
  priming; half-n-half (Samuel Mize)
  Re: RIMS Construction/Mash Stirrer (Dion Hollenbeck)
  rice malt & bakers yeast ("David Hill")
  melanoidin malt (Al Korzonas)
  Rolling Rock/Jockamo Stout (Vachom)




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 10:02:24 PST
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at NOSPAMfcc.net>
Subject: Source for raw barley

Hi all,

Well, the time has come again for me to do something I thought I'd never 
do:  home malting!
I tried a quick search of the archives but failed to find a source for 
raw barley.  Anybody out there
know where one can obtain this stuff?

I guess I would prefer brewer's grade, but Chris Bird at Siebel told me 
that they have malted
feed-grade barley and made passable beer with it, so I'll take what I can
 get!

Private responses can be directed to mailto:George_De_Piro at Berlex.com or 
this address.



Have fun!

George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

Remove NOSPAM from address to reply


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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 06:02:17 PST
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: Stuck Fermentation Again??

Hi all. Hmmm looks like I've got the rotten stuck fermentation. Haven't 
had one of these in a while now. I racked to secondary and then now 
there's no activity. I didn't start worrying until I took a hydrometer 
reading. It was at 1.020SG. OG was mid 40's. Yeast was Thames Valley. 
Please help me refresh my memory as to how I should rectify this. Last 
ditch would be to repitch some yeast, which may be either another smack 
pack or some dry edme or something. Any recommendations?

On another note, I'd like to ask about the different forms of hops. Up 
till now I've always used whole hops. No particular reason except I'm 
pretty unsure about how to use pellets. I mean, if pellets take a much 
shorter time to yield their bitterness in the boil, how would/should I 
compensate for this in a multiple addition hop schedule? Last thing I 
would want is for all the flavour and aroma additions to be rendered 
bittering additions.

Thanks,
Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:14:56 -0800 (PST)
From: keith christiann <kchris1 at lausd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Plugging bung hole, Talking thermometers, and Tap cleaners


Hello Brewers,

Three things:

1)   I obtained an old half barrel keg that has a bung hole in the side.  I
thought I could use this keg as a fermenter or a boiler but I don't know the
best way of handling the bung hole.  I can have it welded shut or I would
buy a bung to seal it.  There must be something to stop it up or how would
they pressurize the keg for delivering  the beer.  To  make the keg easy to
handle, I had my dad weld handles on the top side and it look pretty cool. 
If you have experience with brewing with these kegs, any tips on cleaning,
modifications or dos/don'ts   are very much welcomed.

2)     I am a blind brewer and I am in need of a talking thermometer that
handle the range from boiling to freezing temps?  Reading temps is the
biggest reason I really need an extra set of eyes while brewing.  Any help is
appreciated.  

  
3)   There was a quick thread a while back on tap cleaning and I have been
wanting to respond with my method. I took a fitting off one of my kegs
(liquid line out) and took it to a hardware store.  I found some short
threaded pipe and a faucet fitting.  It needed some soldering but it works
great.  All I do is connect the fitting to my faucet and connect my tap and
then run water through it.  When I disconnect the fitting, I leave the fitting
on the tap and draw air through the tap by sucking on it instead of blowing
through it.  The lines stay very clean an I have no problems with them.  I do
however run iodophor through it before CP filling.  This gadget is only 3
inches long and works great!  I paid under $5 for the whole thing.  I found
this much easier to use than using a 2l bottle with sanitizer in it.  It would
be an easy product to make / sell and make some money!.  I find it as useful
as those deep sockets that are slotted to take off those keg fittings!   


TIA

Keith Christian
Chattsworth CA
kchris1 at lausd.k12.ca.us



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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:59:09 -0700
From: Roger Whyman <rwhyman at milehigh.net>
Subject: cleaner

I've come across a cleaner called Soilmaster from Ecolab. I bought it at
Sysco foods. I used it to clean carboys using the "let it soak" method
and it worked very well. They were clean in less than 20 min. although I
let them soak over night. My question is, will it pit stainless if it
soaks for days or weeks? It contains Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Sulfate,
Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Sodium Polyacrylate, Nonylphenol Ethoxylate.
I'm not sure what all this stuff is but I don't want to ruin my kegs.
Private email is fine or you may post.
Thanks,
Roger Whyman
Englewood, CO


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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:32:37 -0500
From: Anthony Capocelli <acapocelli at pol.net>
Subject: Cornelius kegs

Hi all!

I know this has been discussed many times
before but I wasn't really paying attention
since it didn't apply to me.  However,
I am know the proud owner of three used
cornelius kegs complete with a lovely
eu-de pepsi and a lovely but empty 27lb
CO2 tank.  I plan to purchase the necessary
regulator and gauge etc from New YOrk Homebrew.

My questions are a s follows:
1. what is the best way to clean the kegs.  I 
thought I would soak the suckers in Chlorox
for a day or so.
2. Which parts should I replace ?  I guess the
rubber gasket on top is a definte.  What else ?
3. Where have folks obtained their CO2 refill - 
I live in Queens, NY - Anyone know a good source ?
4.  Does anyone have any experience with shopping 
for inexpensive used refrigerators in the New York 
area. I would like to get one that will fit my
6.5 gallon conical fermentor and of course a keg or two.
5.  Does anyone have suggestions regarding how to go about 
carbonating the beer with CO2.  I do not need to put any 
priming sugar in - correct ?  I just have to add Co2 
to around 15 to 30 psi and leave it a couple of days 
or shake it up, right ? 

Thanks in advance and Happy Brewing !

Acapocelli
acapocelli at pol.net
http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/6371

"I don't have a drinking problem unless
I can't find a drink "


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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:26:01 +0000
From: irajay at ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Williams Mash System

Steve,

If this is the system that uses plastic buckets and something called 
a sparging bag, I have used it.  I thought it was a pain in the neck, 
but I tend to be impatient. 

I would be interested in hearing about your experiences if you would 
care to follow up on HBD.

Ira


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:32:21 +0100
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: aeration

Hello brewers,

In all the books I read about (home)brewing it says it is necessary to
aerate the original wort. " In order to achieve a healthy fermentation
and good beer, the wort must be properly aerated (oxygenated) in
conjunction with pitching the yeast".
Ray Daniels writes in his book Designing Great Beers " most yeast
require a minimum of 5 ppm of oxygen in the wort; experiments with lager
yeast show that some strains achieve optimal performance only at levels
of 10 to 12 ppm. What is clear is that different strains of yeast have
different requirements for oxygen"
In a dictation of Ing. F. Weustenraed (St. Lieven Institute in Belgium
1988) it says (my translation): the wort must, to obtain a proper start
of the fermentation, contain at least 7-8 ppm dissolved oxygen". And:
"the degradation of the carbo-hydrates supplys an amount of energy in
the form of warmth and energy-rich combinations,  particularly ATP
(adenosine triphosphatase)".
I understand yeast cannot use chemical energy directly but uses ATP.
In oxygenrich environment: 
C6H12O6 + 6 O2 + 38 ADP + 38 H3PO4 gives  6 CO2 + 38 ATP + 44 H2O +1711
kJ
and when the oxygen is consumed:
C6H12O6 + 2 ADP + 2 H3PO4 gives  2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2 + 2 ATP + 2 H2O + 106
kJ

So my conclusian was: it is necessary to aerate the original wort.
But now I read about two newly started (small-scale) breweries, who
don't aerate the wort and claim it is not necessary.
Are there any brewers or biochemists who can tell me if the mentioned
small-scale breweries are being at work stupidly, ignorant or very
clever? Or........
I read about it in:
Bieren zelfbrouwen , J. Lambrechts
Bier uit eigen brouwerij,  W. Vogel
Groot Zelfbierbrouw Boek,  J.v. Schaik
Brewing Beers like those you buy,   Dave Line
Home Brewing,   Graham Wheeler
Het Internationale BierBrouwBoek ,  H.v. Slageren
Classic Beer Style Series
Designing Great Beers,  Ray Daniels
Small-Scale Brewing , Ilkka Sysil (net nieuw, nog niet goed
doorgelezen)
Die Technologie der Wrzebereitung, prof. L. Narziss  1985
and more



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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:36:52 -0500
From: kbjohns at peakaccess.net
Subject: Makkolli Recipe

One of the guys in HOSI has a Makkolli page with recipes. It's an
interesting brew and he does a good job. Visit http://www.ferrytime/makkolli/

E-mail ed & he'd love to discuss it with you


Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:07:31 -0600
From: Pvrozanski at ra.rockwell.com
Subject: RE: Maximizing Hop Aroma


>Date: Fri, 20 Mar 98 08:21 PST
>From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
>Subject: Maximizing Hop Aroma
>
>Making a standard American Pale Ale, given an ounce of Cascade hops (whole

>cones), which of the following 3 methods should result in the most hop
>aroma? I've been experiencing loss of aroma characteristics also (great at
 2
>weeks old, weak at 6 weeks old - in the keg). Is this due to the method
used
>to produce the aroma in the first place?
>
>1. Late addition, last 10 minutes of boil.
>2. Knockout, then steep in hot wort for 10 minutes
>3. Dry Hop for 10 days in secondary.
>
>Or is there another secret? Which method both maximizes aroma and also
>produces a stable aroma that wont disappear after a few weeks in the keg?
>
>Charley (looking for aromatics) in N. Cal

I just kegged an APA that I dry hopped for a month with 2 ounces of whole
Cascade hops in the secondary. I also hopped this batch with 3/4 ounce of
Cascade pellets while it chilled after boiling. The result of all this is
the most aromatic APA I've ever had.

I'm not sure if this is actually related to dry hopping, but while this
batch sat in the secondary it turned crystal clear. I mean you could see
the through as if it were a yellow lense.

All I know is that I plan on making this particular batch over in the
future and hopefully I can repeat my results.

Good luck,

ALEman




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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:29:51 -0600 (CST)
From: mwmccaw at ix.netcom.com
Subject: jalapeno ales

Jack and Chris ask about jalapeno ales....
This is the beer that I make the most of (my wife's favorite).
I have tried adding them in the boil, directly to the primary,
and in the secondary.  These all work, and yield subtly 
different effects.  However, jalapeno peppers are wildly
variable in their capsicin (sp?) content, and batches made
with a given weight of peppers can range from mildly zingy
to raging inferno.
The most reliable technique I have found (and the one I
invariably use now) is to make my beer as normal, and after
it has fermented out, I boil a half pound of MOSTLY SEEDED	
peppers in a half gallon of water - actually bring the 
peppers and water to a boil, simmer a couple of minutes,
cover and let cool.  Draw out eight ounces of beer with a 
thief (or have the beer in a keg - just leave some headspace)
and start adding the pepper extract you have made, keeping
track of the amount, until the desired degree of heat is 
reached.  Calculate up to the amount of beer in your vessel
and add the appropriate quantity of extract.  This way you
can get the heat right time after time.

NOTE: jalapenos or jalapeno extract both contain oils, and 
the beer will NOT exhibit a good head.  It will, however,
have a heady jalapeno nose that is intoxicating in itself.

Cheers,
Mike



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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:38:53 -0500
From: Jeff Grey <jgrey at cbg.com>
Subject: RE: Hop Aroma & Lactic Acids for Stouts

Hop Aroma:

If you are looking for the best way to acheive a nice hop aroma I
suggest you move your dry hopping form the secondary fermenter to the
keg.  What I suggest Is that you get hop plugs or whole hops, a hop bag
and glass marbles as a weight.  Make sure that you sanitze the marbles.
Place the mables in the hop bag along with hops and add it to the keg
when you are putting you beer in.

Lactic Acid for Stouts:

I have soured one quart(per 5 gal.) of beer and then slowly heated it to
kill any bacteria.  I then place the soured beer into my keg with the
rest and it has worked quite well, other then smelling up the house.  I
am not sure how well lactic acid would work.

Jeff Grey


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:13:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Labels & commercial beers

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
> Subject: Personalized Labels

> I requested, and received, samples of a "Repositionable" label from
> "DeskTopLabels" and ran the following test:

You might stick a labelled bottle into some ice water for half an hour,
and report back.  If it's a rubber-cement-type glue, it may stay on pretty
well.  If it's a label that removes easily but stays on in ice water,
they've got a very good product for this application.

 - - - - -
> From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
> Subject: Recognizing DMS

> AJ typed in a post a couple of days ago, "(I use 'Rock to train BJCP
> candidates in recognizing DMS)."
> Does anybody have a list of commercially available beers that might help in
> recognizing certain aroma/flavor defects and/or benificial attributes.

Al Korzonas' book "Homebrewing vI" has a list like this.

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:40:43 -0600
From: johnk at inil.com (johnk)
Subject: FW: Lactic Acid for Stouts

in HBD # 2668 Dan Cole writes:

>There has been a lot of good commentary on the use of
>lactic acid in Berliners, what about the use of lactic acid
>(what a lot of us use to acidify our sparge water) in stouts
>for the Guinness "tang" ?

Randy Mosher had a paper floating around the internet about
the 'Ultimate Stout'. In it he discussed adding a couple bottles
of Berliner Weiss at racking to get that flavor. Has anyone ever
tried this?


	John

johnk at inil.com   West Chicago, IL



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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:52:58 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Puffy Eye Allergy

In Homebrew Digest #2668 (March 23, 1998), "Douglas P. Keith"
<keithd at holmes.uchastings.edu> wrote:
>Sometimes when I drink certain kinds of beer my right eye puffs up.  It
>has happened from Full Sail Winter and a certain batch of homebrew also.
>Has anyone else experienced this same phenomenon, or does anyone know
>what I can do about it?  I was tested for allergies and they didn't
>really find much.

My sympathies to Douglas.  I've seen this happen before.  What he is doing
is holding his mug with his thumb pointing up.  Thus, each time he takes a
drink, he is poking himself in the right eye.

Another possibility is that he has gotten into an argument which he doesn't
remember (how many beers was that?) and was punched in the eye - by a
southpaw.

Other explanations could probably be envisioned.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:22:01 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: How soon we forget, priming

 Brewsters:
 

When I was in High School, I remember my English teacher
saying the most horrible thing that could happen 

was to be mis-interpreted, intentionally or not.
 

AlK quotes Andy Walsh's excellent evaluation of Clinitest
accurately, but somehow interprets his comments from a
different angle than I did.  I read Andy's comments as
*supporting* Clinitest use for the purposes for which I have
always intended and recommended it to be used.  Andy's
fine work supported what I have always said was the basic
unknown with Clinitest, namely that it could show a reading
of <1/4% glucose when the fermentation was finished due
to reducible polyglucose units which are unfermentable by
many yeasts. This <1/4% value is equivalent to less than one
unit on a hydrometer and more importantly shows that the
fermentation is really finished, since it evaluates the
conditions of the sugars and not just the density.

A steady hydrometer reading is not a sure indication of a
finished fermentation, since it may also indicate
a stuck ferment. This is especially true with all-grainers
(mash time and temperature errors) and with new recipes
(unknown malt extracts, etc.) where the actual FG may be
unknown.

Clinitest use removes that dichotomy, takes less sample
and does not suffer from the errors common from CO2 in the
sample which can give a grossly incorrect hydrometer reading. 

 ----------------------------------------------
Those who doubt the time it takes to prime bottles by
scooping a teaspoon of priming solution into each bottle
versus scrupulously cleaning a bottling bucket, stirrer and
whatever else, should try this experiment themselves. I
did it a long time ago and priming each of fifty bottles takes
perhaps 3 or 4 minutes. Figure it out. At  a very generous
five seconds a bottle, 50-12 oz. bottles takes 250 seconds
or about 4 minutes. Even if it were longer than washing,
you reduce the risk of infection and oxidation and get
consistent carbonation.
 -----------------------------------------------
AlK and GdeP say they doubt the consistency of using
a priming  solution prepared from an active yeast priming
starter which is just reaching kraeusen.  Think about it.
Beginning kraeusen is the point where the CO2 content is
just reaching saturation.  This means that the error
( assuming that all this CO2 is lost) will be on the order of
the CO2 content contained in a pint of beer spread over
40 pints at the most. We can't even detect that kind of error
when we drink a beer. The addition of a tablespoon of
malt extract in addition to the desired amount of priming
sugar in the starter, as I suggest, reduces the error even further.
- ----------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:32:02 -0500
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Wyeast #1187 Ringwood or Norwich?

Hello All,

A few weeks back I posted an inquiry as to the origin and vendor of some
yeast that I got from a brewpub in Colorado. The Brewmanster continually
refered to the yeast as "Ringwood". The replies to me and the HBD were
many. After alot of researching on the web and assorted brewing texts
(mainly George Fixs' Analysis of Brewing Techniques) I determined that
the yeast was in fact from Wyeast as I had suspected but there was not a
number assigned to it. Since that time, I found a listing of Wyeast's
that included this entry:
1187 -- Ringwood Ale Yeast 
     Extremely malty profile, finishes estery and fruity. Difficult
yeast to manage due to high flocculating characteristics. High oxygen
requirements and poor stability in storage. Not available for sale to
homebrewers. Temperature range: (blank)
             Apparent attenuation: 69-73%. 
             Source: Ringwood.  
The web site's url is: http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy/yeast.html

Bearing as this in mind, I must assume that this is more than likely the
yeast that I have. Fix states on page 63 of AAOBT that this particular
yeast, a Norwich strain is  Version Number NCYC 1187 (which is Food
Research Institutes) and it  "is the one that made the U.S. brewpubs
seven-day wonder possible". He also goes on to group this yeast together
with a Wyeast (unnumbered). Following this description of Norwich yeast
he follows with a description of Ringwood yeast stating that it is very
close to the NCYC 1187 strain but does not list an order number for
Wyeast. After reading this from a man who's research and writings I have
grown to trust, I must concurr that the Wyeast that I have is a Norwich
strain, contradicting what I posted referring to it as Ringwood.
Anyway, in case you are wondering, no where in anyone's decription does
it mention about this yeasts' ability to throw off alot, (and I mean
alot!) of diacetyl. I learned this the hard way from a recent batch of
English Pale Ale that I made. I received numerous emails warning me alot
this,(Thanks Spencer!) but the brew was already in the fermenter. I
tried a short diacetyl rest with no success. The beer is not bad, but
well below par for my standards and will more than likely end up as fish
food in the canal. 
Just wanted to update the collective and end this thread. 
Now on to the next endeavor....................Munich Dunkel (yum yum!)

Cheers,

Captain Marc Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
Future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:37:10 -0500
From: cavac at stjohns.edu (Cava Christopher)
Subject: Warm beer goes bad?

>From: "Reed,Randy" <rreed at foxboro.com>
>Subject: Home Brewer's Beer Walk-In Cooler Ideas  -  approx. 5' by 6' area
>Dear Amateur Brewers,
>Can anyone out there shed light on building and cooling a small walk-in
>area in a basement? I live in the Northeast United States and my basement
>does not stay cold enough in the summer to keep my beer "happy."

Long ago when I was trying out wine making I had seen instructions for
making a "cooler" basically designed to be constructed under a set of
stairs.  after all the insulation was installed, the cooling unit  - the
guts from a refrigerator - were to be installed near one of the walls with a
larger fan than came with the fridge.  Obviously, my memory of the setup is
not too complete - thus the general vagueness.  Anyway, hope it offers some
help.  My larger concern is that I too live in the northeast (New York).  We
are relatively new to homebrewing (5 batches) and store all bottled beer in
the basement.  Do I need to be concerned that in the summer heat the beer
will go bad?  How would I know if it did? Just by smell? Floaties?  The
basement never gets as hot as outside, but it will go up into the 70's at
least.  Any opinions are appreciated


Christopher Cava
Information Tech.
St. John's University
cavac at stjohns.edu
Voice: 718-990-1367
Fax: 718-990-2002
8000 Utopia Parkway
Jamaica, NY  11439



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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:23:29 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Welding Aluminum

Dan Fox asked about welding to his 3004 aluminum alloy Vollrath pot.
This alloy is quite weldable and most other 3000, 5000 and 6000 series
aluminum alloys can be welded to it.  The filler metal is usually 4043
(or 5356 for welding 5000 series).

John Palmer
metallurgist
(still holding on to his American Welding Society certification)
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/



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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:21:40 -0800
From: "Brian Dixon" <brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Re: RE Malt Extract Database

>Hans asked about attenuation characteristics for malt extracts in digest
>#2665.  Here's a link to a database that the First State Brewers maintain.
>Hope this is informative.
>http://triton.cms.udel.edu/~oliver/firststate/tips/maltextract.html
>
>Mark Nelson
>Windhund Brauerei
>Atlanta Georgia

Great table!  The only thing I'd note is that the original poster asked
about attenuation of the various extracts, and I didn't see this in the
table (estimated or otherwise).  But the table is a great start.  If the
webmaster could add attenuation info, and the pts/lb info, then this would
really put the finish on the work that's already gone into it.  I'm not sure
that anyone has actually succeeded at this, but the table you reference
above looks like a good place for it.

Brian




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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:26:11 -0800
From: "Brian Dixon" <brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com>
Subject: EBC vs L ?

What is the technically correct way of converting an EBC value to a degrees
Lovibond value?  Or am I hopelessly confused on what "EBC" is ... explain
please?

Brian




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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 12:54:22 -0600
From: bob_poirier at adc.com
Subject: The Great Priming Controversy


        I've been reading the posts that have been going back and forth 
     regarding which priming method is best and achieves the most 
     consistent results.  I'll join the fray and say that I definitely 
     think whole batch priming is the only way to go!
        I started homebrewing back in '92, mostly because my uncle told me 
     that he'd done it back in the 60's, and that he'd had a lot of fun 
     doing it.  It's funny how people only remember the good times.
        I pretty much followed his suggestions verbatim back in the 
     beginning, and I was rewarded with batch after batch of exploding beer 
     bottles!!  He told me to just add a little bit of sugar to each bottle 
     before I filled 'em up, and I'd be all set.
        My wife calmly explained the new house rules after my fourth or 
     fifth batch began to explode one by one in our bedroom closet.  
     Needless to say, in order to maintain a healthy marriage, I dropped 
     homebrewing all together.
        I started back up again a few years ago, but I've since changed my 
     priming technique - I've completely sworn off priming the individual 
     bottles, no matter what method is suggested!  I've had nothing but 
     good, repeatable results priming the whole batch at one time, and my 
     wife is much more at ease now.  
        I've got good old Charlie P. and his wonderful book to thank for 
     that!!
     
        Keep On Brewin'!!
        Bob Poirier
     
     PS - If you live anywhere near East Haven, CT, and you've been 
     thinking about participating in Big Brew '98, drop me a line - I'm 
     planning on registering a site.  The more the merrier!
        
        




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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:32:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "Aanakin Skywalker (Dan Szemenyei)" <iamelvis at esu.edu>
Subject: priming with juice concentrate?

Hi all,
	Last summer my dad gave me an apple ale he got from only Lord
knows where.  It was superb!  I was thinking about trying my hand at one.
I've posted questions on rec.crafts.brewing, but am not sure that the
responses cleared me on any given path.  My plan is to brew a pale ale and
add the apple flavoring.  Question is, how to get the best apple flavor
and aroma?  I've considered substituting a gallon of apple juice for a
gallon of the brewing liquor (actually, I would probably use it to bring
the wort up to 5 gallons *after* the boil).  I've also considered adding a
can of frozen apple juice concentrate to the secondary.  Last, but not
least, I've considered using only the frozen concentrate as the priming
solution.  Could anyone tell me which they think will impart the best
flavor/aroma?  If priming, how much should I add?  Also, will too much
hops (is there such a thing  ;^) ) take away from my hoped for finish?
What hops would work best for this type of ale?  What type of yeast?  All
help would be greatly appreciated!!!  Sorry if I'm asking too much, but I
only have two brews under my belt (both partial mash).  I've been reading
this ng for almost a year now, trying to help myself for *next time* (hey,
I'm a poor grad student with hardly anytime to actually brew - why I
haven't tried an all-grain yet).  Thanks again!!!

Dan Szemenyei








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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:35:03 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Crayfish, crawfish, crawdads

Brewsters:

I also called them crawdads but it depended on to whom I
was speaking. Crawdads was what you said when you
were with the "guys". Cray/crawfish when speaking
more formally.

I just looked up crayfish/crawfish in the Oxford Dictionary of
English Etymology (ODEE) and find that my idea of "ecrivisse"
as the origin of "crayfish" wasn't too far off the mark etymologically
but not historically. The names "crayfish" and "crawfish"
developed long before Evangeline left Acadia. 


A shortened ODEE reference:

"Middle English ( french influence)
crevis(se)//Old French "crevice, crevice,crevesce" with accent
on the last syllable.  Old HIgh German "krebiz" ( similar to Kreb
for crab).  The word developed two types 1) crevis hence
crevish which lengthening the first syllable and and assim to
fish became crayfish  2) cravis which through cravish and crafish
became crawfish which survives as the US form."

Crawdad wasn't recognized in the Oxford or American Heritage
Dictionary, so I guess we will just have to stop using that name.
Also, you Ozzies have got to stop calling them Yabbies for
the same reason. {8^)

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Lamparello <Michael.J.Lamparello at MCI.Com>
Subject: First All-Grain Batch

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I've been lurking about HBD for about a year and a half now, and
have gained much valuable advice from many of your posts.

I started homebrewing after Xmas '96 when my In-Laws bought me
the Mr. Beer kit. Well; after my first batch of Apple Cider which
was supposed to be a Pale Ale, I turned to the 'Net and found out
that I had almost NONE of the proper equipment or methodology to
properly brew.

This past Christmas my wife bought me a complete Advanced setup
(which I upgraded to all-grain) and I have since produced 7 beers
that were all drinkable, and most of which tasted better than I
thought they would.

I have brewed 3 extract brews (with steeped specialty grains), and
4 partial-mashes. I tried my first all-grain yesterday, and I have
a few questions for the collective.

I am attempting a Bass Ale clone which I found in Cat's Meow. Here
is the procedure I followed:

Ingredients:

7 lbs British Pale Malt
1 lb Crystal Malt
1 lb. Brown Sugar
1 oz. N. Brewer (Boil)
1 oz. Fuggles (Boil 30 Min)
1/2 oz. Fuggles (finish)
Wyeast British Ale Yeast (1 pint starter)

Doughed-in at 153F. Held for 60 minutes, started testing for conversion
at 45 minutes. Checked temp every 5 min, 3 additions of boiled water
to hold temp at 153F. At 63 minutes tested for conversion. Iodine did
not change color. Stirred-up mash and re-tested for conversion. Again,
iodine did NOT change color. Mashed-out at 170F for 10 minutes. Sparged
with 6 gallons 170F Sparge water. Sparge took about 40 minutes, but
went smoothly. Nice clear wort. 6 gallons initial volume in brewpot.
Just for the hell of it, I tested a bit of the wort with the iodine
(out of the brewpot, of course) and the iodine immediately turned black.
Called the local HB store (not relaxed, no homebrew) and they recommended
to keep going and see if the Initial gravity turned out low. Went through
the boil no problem; initial gravity 1.052. Pitched a 1 pint starter
of the yeast at 4:00PM. Fermentation begins at 1:00AM. Final volume
in fermenter: 5.5 gal.

Questions:

1. Does my procedure sound OK as per One-Step infusion mash?

2. Should I be worried about the bad test for conversion?

3. My final gravity seems OK, and fermentation was at 1 bubble/sec
   after 16 hours in the primary, so am I worrying unnecessarily?

First all-grain jitters, I hope.

Any comments would be greatly welcome and appreciated. Personal e-mails
OK too.

Thanks for the help, and keep up the great work!!

Mike Lamparello
Michael.J.Lamparello at mci.com












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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:12:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: priming; half-n-half

Greetings to all.

I prime with a bottling bucket, and after hearing Dave Burley talk about
oxidation I'm just worried sick.

I figure, I'll purge my bottling bucket with CO2 to prevent this.

Since I don't have a CO2 tank and set-up, I'll just pop my cat in on top
of the priming solution.  When he passes out, the bucket will be full of
CO2 and I'll be ready to bottle (remove the cat first).

All seriousness aside, if I were getting oxidation during bottling I'd
sanitize a foam plate or a foil pie pan, and put it in the bottling
bucket.  It should float atop the beer, preventing significant contact
with the air.  Any thoughts on this?

 - - - - - -
Let's look for hard data instead of FUD and momilies.

Is there any hard EVIDENCE of an oxidation problem in a bottling bucket?
Any instances of this happening?  Anybody ever have this problem, except
by carelessness (which will generally cause SOME problem, no matter what
methods you use)?.

A boiled sugar solution should be sanitary and measurable.  Is there any
hard EVIDENCE of uneven carbonation from this method?  Any instances?

Dave Burley doesn't just use sugar water, he uses a fermenting wort.  We
can put a top limit on how variable this method is.  How much of the sugar
COULD ferment out in 12 hours?  Brew gurus -- any hard data?

One benefit that Dave Burley claims for his krausening method is that you
get more yeast growth.  Do we WANT yeast growth this late in the game, or
do we want the few remaining yeast to eat the priming sugars WITHOUT
reproducing?  Will reproducing yeast generate esters or other flavors that
must then be re-absorbed, or is this too small an effect to worry about?
Oh wise microbiogurus, any thoughts?  Better yet, any real data?

 - - - - - -
Dave B posted:
> >Any opinions, personal experiences, etc.
 ...
> Yep, but not one the gatekeepers among us would like to hear.

What the heck is a gatekeeper?  Has someone kept you from posting, or
asked you not to do so?  Or should the "gatekeepers" be kept from posting
their opinions?

 - - - - - -
Various emails and HBD posts have chopped at my comment about porter being
like a half-and-half.  I'll assume that these porter proctors answered Bob
Fesmire's actual question by email in the three days before I said anything.

My POINT was, sure, you can pour two homebrews into one glass, and you can
make one brew similar to a blend of two other beers.  Bob, if your
question needed a more complex answer, I didn't understand it.

If you want two distinct layers, and you're asking how to determine which
one to float on top, the one with the higher terminal gravity would go on
the bottom.  A sweeter ale will typically support a dry stout.

But a "half-and-half" is not necessarily layered.  Some places will just
pour them together.

Nor is a "half-and-half" always ale and stout.  There are all manner of
combinations, some with more-common or less-common specific names.  I
believe that "half and half" is the generic term for such combinations.

A "black and tan" is stout atop ale.  This is traditionally Guiness stout
atop Bass ale, but you may get it made with others if you don't specify.

I have heard people comment that this name is is politically insensitive
to the Irish, since the "Black and Tan" regiment was some English unit
that affected Irish history (for details, well, look it up, you're the one
that cares :-).  I've also heard that the Irish like and use the name
"Black and Tan," since the Irish Guiness sits atop the English Bass.

If this shotgun blast didn't hit your target, and you haven't been
satisfied by email, please re-post your question.

If you REALLY want the layers separate, you could sanitize a circle of
plastic...

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: 23 Mar 1998 13:04:47 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at vigra.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS Construction/Mash Stirrer

>> bob poirier writes:

Bob> So, my first question is, about how much cash are we talking
Bob> about for setting up just the one vessel, converted to the actual
Bob> RIMS?  The rest of the system can be added on piece by piece,
Bob> correct?

Well, yes, you can start out small and work up.  Let us make the
assumption that you are an all-grain brewer and have a mashtun
sufficiently large already.  

	False bottom			30
	Misc fittings in mashtun	20
	heater				30
	heater chamber (copper tube
		epoxied together)	30
	pump				80
	hose				20
	return manifold			10
	misc				30
					---
					240

This makes the assumption that all parts are new and full price. I
would not use an epoxied copper heater chamber for very long, first
because I would not trust it to not leak, and second, I don't trust
epoxy in contact with my wort.  A full stainless steel heater chamber
will be about $150 in parts.  This setup also makes the assumption
that you have no automatic temperature control, but use a switch and
manually turn the heater on and off.  A PID temp controller and solid
state relay can be added for under $200.

As I stated in my article in BT, building a RIMS is not cheap.  One
can cut costs in a number of ways, but many I would not suggest.  I
got a $350 mag pump surplus for $40, great way to cut costs.  I would
not suggest using an on/off switch in place of a temp controller, too
much possiblity for human error and killed enzymes (trust me on this,
I had the bad experience, you don't want to).  Buying an $8 water
heater element from the home improver store is not a good substitute
for spending $30 on a low density Incaloy element, it will scorch and
leach heavy metals into your wort.

Bob> Secondly, are there any discernible advantages to incorporating a
Bob> mash stirring paddle into the RIMS?  I can remember encountering
Bob> only one such system, and it was offered for sale by a
Bob> professional outfit.

As much as the commercial system with the paddles may be "neat", IMHO,
stirring and recirculation are counterproductive.  If you have a well
designed RIMS system with a good return manifold (extremely easy to
build), there is no need to stir.  In addition, stirring defeats the
advantage of the grain bed being its own filter and producing crystal
clear wort.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California


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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:37:31 +1000
From: "David Hill" <davidh at melbpc.org.au>
Subject: rice malt & bakers yeast

TWO questions to display my ignorance.

1.....    if we cannot mash rice without large additions of barley malt in
order to obtain the saccharification enzymes missing in rice. How is rice
malt manufactured? Do they use barley enzymes extracted from barley or what?

2..... What does bakers yeast ferment? Is there some fermentable sugar in
wheat/rye flour without mashing/malting?

 .
David Hill.   davidh at melbpc.org.au      :-)>



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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:41:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: melanoidin malt

Charley writes:
>A dunkel should be made with mostly munich malt, which in fact IS a pale ale 
>malt for all intents. Its kilned at a higher temperature (andl longer) 
>giving it more melanoidin content and a bit darker color. Try to get what's 
>called melanoidin malt or Dark Munich for a dunkel.

Well, not exactly... Pale Ale malt is like Pilsner malt except that it is
kilned hotter and longer.  Munich and Vienna malts are slightly different
in the way that the moisture is vented.  It's written up very well in
Malting and Brewing Science.  I've summarised it in my article on Munich
malt in the Library at The Brewery website.

Indeed, Dunkel should be like 95 to 100% Munich dark malt.  Melanoidinmalt
is like a Munich malt on steroids... it is like DeWolf-Cosyns Aromatic.
You *don't* want to make anything that is 95 to 100% Melanoidinmalt or
Aromatic.  I use 5 to 8% of one of these malts in my Altbiers and
Munchner Dunkels and the rest is all Munich Dark from Weyermann.  Yum!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:54:18 -0600
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: Rolling Rock/Jockamo Stout

	Let's be honest.  Most homebrewers aren't interested in reproducing the
taste of Rolling Rock; in fact, Rolling Rock and its like are the
negative motivators for most homebrewers.  Ray Estrella in his post
#2664 takes me to task for suggesting that the adjuncts commonly used in
producing light American pilseners like Rolling Rock are difficult for
homebrewers to work with (I was responding to a post in #2662).  Perhaps
I'm really out of the loop.  Are there homebrewers out there whipping up
batches of Coors?  My one and only whole grain rice experience yielded a
starchy, gluttonous mess and a stuck sparge.  Rice syrup in another brew
session yielded sour beer and was, according to homebrewing friends who
smirked when I told them I'd used it, useful only to manufacturers of
the inferior malt extract to be found in many kits. But I hadn't brewed
much at that point, so perhaps there were other problems that had
nothing to do with the ingredients.
	I noticed a piece in the Spring Zymurgy on a Houston competition that
featured a tongue in cheek malt liquor category.  The winner arrived in
40 oz. bottle with the screw cap taped back on, most of the other
entrants were poured down the drain--but clearly this category was a
joke.  So, I ask again, are there brewers out there who actively attempt
to make light American pilseners?  Can it be done without flash
fermentation, super-chilling, massive filtering?  
*************************************************************************
***************
Has anyone tried Abita Brewing Company's Jockamo Stout?  Like their
Purple Haze, it's only available in a keg.  E-mail me if you've tried
it.  I'd like to compare notes.


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---