---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Ferderal Laws, B-Brite, Carboy Scratches and Using Lactic Acid (James Tomlinson)
  RE: More politics: Do you want to get arrested after 2 beers? (John Wilkinson)
  Sierra Nevada Grain (Fred Waltman)
  Club Yeast Library (Dennis Cabell)
  Homebrewers Weekend Course ("Jim & Shelly Wagner")
  is oxygenation necessary? (antnee56)
  one-step ("Ray Estrella")
  fluorescent lights (robert57)
  mercy killing? ("Ray Estrella")
  Open Fermenting / Mashing wheat malt (YYZCLAYTON)
  Displaying my ignorance (part II) ("Hans E. Hansen")
  Mash Mixer Mixed Results? (Ludwig)
  Re: Hazed and Confused (Kyle Druey)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Berliner Weiss, Baker's Yeast (Charles Hudak)
  calories & carbohydrates in beer (ensmingr)
  Lookit the colors, man! Whoa! (Some Guy)
  Contests, Hombrew Stores, Piezo Ignition and Reverse RIMS. ("S. Wesley")
  What I Wrote/DO (AJ)
  microscopy (Louis Bonham)
  Re: Satan bashing (Satan 666)
  RE:  Scratched Glass/Cleaning Primaries (bob_poirier)
  Baker's yeast ("David R. Burley")
  re:RIMS cleaning (The Holders)
  Re: Unknown Yeast Strain (Ringwood?) (Jim Wallace)
  Re: Beer Carbohydrates (Jim Bentson)
  Re:Grand Cru Style? (Golgothus)




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:57:15 -0500
From: James Tomlinson <red_beards at compuserve.com>
Subject: Ferderal Laws, B-Brite, Carboy Scratches and Using Lactic Acid

In HBD2671, George De Piro wrote about the new 0.08 BAC Federal Law.

I Agree that increased enforcement would be better than moveing the
arbitrary standard. That said, I want to add a correction.

In a Post to the Bacchus Wine forum on Compuserve, a post was made
relating to this topic. Along with lots of statistics, a note appeared
quoting the founder of MADD as being opposed to this bill for precisely
the reasons stated by George. It will criminalize a margin and add
nothing to going after the real offenders.

IN HBD2672, Randy A. Shreve Wrote about how long B-brite stays effective
as a sanitizer. 

B-brite is not a sanitizer. It is a cleanser. I misunderstood this,
years ago, when I first started brewing, and it appears that there is
still misinformation going around about B-brite being a sanitizer.

Also in HBD2672, Barry Browne wrote about the Carboy scratches.

I'm not sure what kind of carboy you are using, but mine are not quartz
crystal, they are glass. The Mohs scale of hardness I use has Glass and
steel both at 5.5, being that they will scratch each other. Quartz
crystal is 7. Sorry to the orginal poster that you may indeed have
scratched your carboy. I have no fix.

Now on to my own business: I recently started acidifying my mash and
sparge water to make up for the fact that my extremely hard water also
is alkaline. I am kegging the first on tonight so I'll see the full
results almost immediately.

I noticed that I'm not getting much in the hot and cold break
department. I get some coagulating foam, but I scoop that stuff away.
Before I acidified, I was getting something like egg drop soup. 

Quick review: Multi infusion, Briess 2 row, Protein rest at 135 for 20,
Conversion at 153, mash out to 160-165 with a liquid decoction. Using
Lactic Acid to adjust the mash to 5.3-5.5 pH and the Sparge water is 170
F, also 5.3-5.5 pH. 

Is the acid preventing me from extracting tannins and this the reason
I'm not getting much in the way of break material ? 
- -- 
James Tomlinson

Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour.  
But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime!




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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 17:10:08 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: More politics: Do you want to get arrested after 2 beers?

I have to weigh in on George De Piro's side rather than Frank Conway's
when it comes to the legal intoxication level of .08 or .10.

Frank said of the .08 limit:

>If you are responsible, this law will not be a concern.

If one is not intoxicated at the .08 level I do not consider it irresponsible
to drive.  Frank even admits:

>You're right that this won't keep irresponsible idiots from getting into
>their cars and causing death on the roads, but if they are stopped it gives
>the police the powers they need to get that moron off the road.

If the .08 limit won't stop the problem drivers, why saddle the rest of us
with an unreasonably stringent limit?  What power does it give the police
to control those problem drivers that they don't already have?  The .10
limit would stop those drivers as well as .08 since they are well past .10.

I could have gone on about how the people Canada are sheep willing to accept
an oppressive government, but this is a brewing forum, not a political one.
So I won't.


John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:24:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Fred Waltman <waltman at netcom.com>
Subject: Sierra Nevada Grain


Shawn asks about the malt Sierra Nevada uses.

Back in the good old days when Great Western Malting would let you come in
to the plant and buy malt on Wed mornings you could sometimes get a peek
at the board showing scheduled shipments. Anchor, Sierra Nevada and
California Concentrates (the folks who make Alexander's) had regular
listings.  So at one time they used good old American 2-row.

Fred Waltman
Culver City Home Brewing Supply Co.
fred at brewsupply.com   *or*   waltman at netcom.com
http://www.brewsupply.com
"You can make better beer than you can buy."



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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:20:23 -0500
From: Dennis Cabell <cabell at home.msen.com>
Subject: Club Yeast Library

HI,

I have been keeping slants for about 1.5 years, and have been
considering opening my yeast library up to my brew club so that everyone
could benefit and contribute.

My question goes out to members of other clubs that have yeast
libraries.  How to you administer the library?  I don't have the time to
make a starter everytime someone calls and wants a yeast, so I wanted to
know how others did things.  

All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks, Dennis
- --
Dennis Cabell
Sterling Heights, MI
cabell at home.msen.com


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:35:02 -0000
From: "Jim & Shelly Wagner" <wagner at toad.net>
Subject: Homebrewers Weekend Course

Is anyone out there planning on attending the Homebrewers Weekend Course in
Baltimore? It's put on by  the American Brewers Guild and is set for
May2-3, 1998. I'm going and was just curious to see if anyone from HBD is
going. Contact me directly or go to http://www.masterbrewer.com for more
info.
						Jim Wagner
						Pasadena, Maryland


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:06:37 -0500
From: antnee56 at juno.com
Subject: is oxygenation necessary?

Hi all,         I'v been brewing now about two years and still consider
myself a novice at this great and rewarding pastime. but i am still
confused on the need to add extra oxygen to  the wort before pitching the
yeast.  I'v made about  ten 5 gallon batches and the process of
transferng the wort from brewpot to primary fermenter useing a funnel
seems to cause enough aireation,  and the beer seems to ferment
vigorously, and so far has been very drinkable.  I'm just wondering if
taking the additional step and adding the oxygen is worth the time and
effort, and does it improve the finished product!   Also i  have to say
that i read every issue of the HBD  and have benefited greatly from the
many valuable posts. 
				Happy Brewing
				Tony  in Trenton NJ

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:04:54 -0600
From: "Ray Estrella" <ray-estrella at email.msn.com>
Subject: one-step

  Hello to all,
Kyle asks,

>Does anyone use One Step cleaner/sanitizer or Oxine and can
>post back results of effectiveness?

  I go through 5 - 6 LB of One-Step a year, along with TSP, and
Iodine based cleaner/sanitizer.  The One-Step works very well,
I use it for smaller cleaning jobs. (Erlenmeyer flasks, batches of
vials, etc.)  If you enjoy watching your wort during active fermentation,
you will love to watch this stuff clean.  Lots of bubbles.  The best price
I have found for it is from Northern Brewers, in Saint Paul, MN.
They are at WWW.nbrewer.com  No affiliation, blah, blah....

  Oh yeah, if I feed my spent hops to crawdads, that are then water-
bath canned without pH adjustment, will my dog die from consuming
the second hand hops, or from botulism?

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

****** Never Relax, Constantly Worry....have a better Homebrew ******







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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:29:48 -0500
From: robert57 at pilot.msu.edu
Subject: fluorescent lights

I understand sunlight is harmful to hops. Is anyone aware of the detrimental
effects of fluorescent lights on hops at different stages of brewing?
Fermentation should be done in the dark. How about during preparation of the
wort, transferring to a secondary, and bottling? Should one have only
incandescent lights in all the preparation areas?
Thanks for the help.

Novice Partial Mash Brewer,
Bob Hess
Lansing, Michigan



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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:24:16 -0600
From: "Ray Estrella" <ray-estrella at email.msn.com>
Subject: mercy killing?

  Hello to all,
Bob tells us to,

>put this priming thing to bed!
>Bottom line:  You find something that works wonders, you use that
>technique for ever and ever!  Good for you!!
>Debates as to which priming method is superior are moot - Is the
>beer carbonated as a result of your priming technique?  Yes?  BINGO!!
>A job well done.  End of story!
>I submitted a comment regarding this debate, which I later
>regretted, because all it helped to do was to give a little more life
>to a topic that should have died shortly after it hatched.
>Let's put the damn thing out of our misery!

  Bob has probably not been reading the HBD for any great length of time.
If he had, he would know that some subjects are going to keep popping up,
and be long, drawn out affairs.  At least once a year we will hear about the
pro/cons of blow-off tubes, Clinitest, or plastic and glass fermenters.  And
it
will usually be the same people, posting about the subjects, saying pretty
much the same thing.  But because of new blood, like Bob, "submitting a
comment regarding this debate" we often find new ways to look at old ideas.
  I very rarely bottle, so I do not really care about the issue, but I read
each
post because I am interested in the oxidation angle.  On the other hand,
RIMS
setups hold no appeal to me, so after scanning the first paragraph, I just
PgDn
through the rest of the post.  But I would never dream of suggesting that we
stop commenting on RIMS, or MixMashers, or whatever else I do not want to
read about today.
  Bob will find that when there is no more interest in a subject, it will
die out on
it's own.  But like a bad penny, or an un-employed brother-in-law it will be
back.
And next time we just might learn something new.
  To me that makes it all worthwhile.

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

****** Never Relax, Constantly Worry....have a better Homebrew ******






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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:43:12 EST
From: YYZCLAYTON <YYZCLAYTON at aol.com>
Subject: Open Fermenting / Mashing wheat malt

Greetings,

While browsing the Michigan Microbrewery and Brewpub Guide
(http://www.phd.msu.edu/bice/beer/brew.html), I noticed there are a number of
brewpubs and microbreweries in Michigan that use open fermentation.  This
piqued my interest in open fermentation and I am thinking about giving it a
try.  There was a good thread on open fermentation three or four years ago but
I thought It could use some discussion again.  I'll summarize any private
responses I get and post back to the digest.  Here are the questions I have:

1.  What type of container do you use (SS, plastic, glass, other) and how big?
Do you have any type of drain valve?
2.  Is there any special care needed for the fermenter?  Cleaning, sanitizing
etc.?
3.  The Kraeusen head is supposed to provide a protective layer but does
anyone cover the fermenter?  If so, with what, when, and for how long?
4.  Where do you ferment?  I guess I mean how clean of an area does one need
to be successful?
5.  Do you skim the dirty head?  If so, when and how often?
6.  Do you crop the yeast?  If so when and how often?   How do you store the
yeast?
7.  Are there any yeast strains that seem to be better suited to open
fermentation?  Which ones?
8.  Do you rack the beer to a secondary?  If so, when?  

Did I leave anything out ?

For my next batch I am planning to brew an American style wheat beer loosely
modeled after Redhook Wheathook (before they called it a hefe-weizen).  I plan
on using 50/50 Klages 2 row and German wheat malt with maybe a bit of carapils
or Munich malt as well (< 1 lb)  OG approximately 1.040.  My hops are Mt Hood
and Ultra or Hersbruker at about 25 to 30 IBU and the yeast is Wyeast 1272
(American Ale II).  I don't really care for the flavor of the Bavarian wheat
beers which is why I chose an American ale strain of yeast.  Any comments on
the recipe?

My question is, do I need a protein rest for wheat malt, or will an infusion
mash at around 150 deg. F be ok?  I know a protein rest is advised for raw
wheat but I'm not sure about wheat malt.   I mash in a cooler so if a rest is
advised, I was going to mash the wheat (I assume it can convert itself, eh?)
on the stove top around 130 deg. F  for 10 to 20 minutes then boost it up to
150 and mash it with the barley malt in the cooler at 150 or so.   What is the
collective wisdom on this?

Thanks for your time and consideration.  Now back to my cave.

Joe Clayton
Farmington Hills, MI  USA
yyzclayton at aol.com
ak753 at detroit.freenet.org


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 20:53:53 
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: Displaying my ignorance (part II)

I submitted a dissertation on carbohydrates in beer, which would
have showed up today or yesterday, depending upon when the 
HBD server chooses to display it.  In it I gave my pure guess
on how to calculate carbo content, largely based upon 
hydrometer readings (which is the only tool most of us have
fo attempt such foolhardyness).

I have since looked at a Bud Light can which shows 110 calories,
6.6 grams carbo, 0.9 gram protein.  (6.6 + 0.9) * 4 = 30 calories
attributable to the listed components.  The remainder (80 calories)
must be the alcohol.  Question:  Isn't alcohol a carbohydrate?
Won't it contribute to weight gain? (SOMETHING is causing my
beer gut!)  What, if anything, is the dietary contribution of alcohol?

Some call alcohol 'empty calories'.  I never figured out exactly what
this means, since it must be real calories if it is digested and 
contributes to weight gain.  

I am trying to lose weight via a low carbohydrate diet, and am
confused as to how to count beer. (We can't give up everything
now, can we?)  Is Bud Light just 6.6 grams carbo, or is it closer to
106/4 = 26.5 grams (the number of grams as derived from the 
total calorie content minus the protein)?  Not that I actually plan
to drink Bud Light.

If the alcohol doesn't count, then it would seem the homebrewer
should aim for higher attenuation (diet-wise).  Hmmmm.....


Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com




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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 01:00:16 -0400
From: Ludwig <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Mash Mixer Mixed Results?

Dana Edgell floated several good ideas for even mash temperature

> 1)Old ice cream motor/MixMasher thing. 
> 2)copper pipes. Has anyone ever tried simply inserting some thin 
> copper pipes into the middle of the mash?

First of all, I mash in a 5 gal Gott cooler and notice a large variation
in mash temperature from top of the mash to the bottom without stirring.
For example, 2 batches ago I was reading 150 deg F at the bottom and 156
near the top. So I typically stir frequently to get more even
temperature and more importantly, to just get a good handle on what my
mash temperature really is. Believe me, I've done a lot of poking around
with a thermistor on a stick and have decided that you can't achieve
even temp distribution without frequent stirring or recirc. So I
recently built a mash mixer. From top to bottom, the motor is a kiddie
car gear motor from American Science and Surplus. This idea came from
someone on the digest. The drive shaft is 7/8 hardwood dowel and
attached to the dowel are four oak blades, each 2 inches wide by 3
inches long. The blades form a diameter of 6 inches.  About this gear
motor. It was cheap ($12). I was a little worried about power. So for
the maiden mash, I had 8 lbs of grains in the tun, dry, and ran the
mixer with a 1 amp battery charger on the 6 volt setting and got about
60 RPM. Adding 1.5 gal of hot water the motor initially lugged to about
30 RPM. With this thick of a mash, the mixer doesn't do well as far as
mixing. No problem with power though, just bump up to 12 volts and it
cranks right along. This mixer setup does much better with more water. I
was mashing with 2.5 gal and the mixer ran on 6 volts for 2.5 hours 
continuous during the mash. The motor has a small cooling fan and never 
got hot. But the best part is, I couldn't detect any variation in temp 
throughout the mash. 

The mixer is half of the system I'm trying to build. The diameter of the
mixer is only 6 inches so I can install a coil between the blade tips
and the wall of the mash tun. What I really want is good positive
circulation passed the coils so that the mixer would pull the mash up
from the bottom and form a circulation pattern that is up in the middle
and down along the sides and over the coil. The mixer, in it's current
form is not building enough of that kind of circulation and I think it's
because the rotating blades impart a tangential velocity on the mash
which reduces the vertical velocity. Interesting thing, when I turn the
mixer shaft by hand, just a quick 1/4 turn really produces a lot of
thrust. By turning the mixer in spurts, it really pushes the mash up and
does just what I want it to do. Kindof like a washing machine. C.D.,
aren't you working on one of those? So, anyway, getting to the point.
I'm thinking about adding fixed vanes in between the two sets of blades
and maybe above the top set of blades. Nothing new with that. Axial
compressors wouldn't function well without stator vanes. I've got a way
of doing this and would like to trade ideas with anyone who has done
something similar.

Cheers, 
Dave Ludwig


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 21:39:16 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Hazed and Confused

Brewsters, I received an interesting and detailed email from a mystery
beer wizard (MBW) who responded to my protein rest post of a few days
ago.  He is not a poster, but said I could.

MBW> Hazes are finely suspended light scattering particles which form in
bright beers over time.  The can consist of calcium oxalate, un-degraded
starch and dextrins(rarely), B-glucan and/or pentosans.  Most frequent
type of haze if formed from phenols and polypeptides. It is the
polyphenols that oxidise over time to produce haze. One reaction that
removes high concentration of polyphenols is the interaction of
polyphenols with proteins in the copper boil.  So to contradict your
friend Kunze degrading the HMW proteins to MMW proteins will aid in
better head retention, more mouth feel, and also better hot and cold
break, by the interaction of polyphenols with proteins.  So remember its
the polyphenols that are the major producers of haze.

KMD> But not the HMWP?

MBW> You got it!! Its the polyphenols that are the problem. If you get
good hot and cold breaks and dont transfer the cold break to your
secondary you should have no problems with any type of protein. Chill
haze polypeptides 10,000-60,000 MW, beer foam polypeptides 10,000-15,000
MW, beer foam more associated to carbohydrate 10,000-15,000 MW derived
from storage protein hordein.

MBW> With respect to the Siebel expert protein rest at 135 will not do
much is correct,  proteolysis is most rapid at 50-55C(122-131), 135 is
too high. Remember non-biological hazes are unavoidable, but to reduce
the amount of haze use low nitrogen barley, low polyphenol barley, avoid
alkaline mash, avoid excessive last runnings, a good boil and break and
use copper finnings to assist in your breaks(Irish moss).

KMD> What about the mantra here on the HBD that resting in the range of
KMD> 132 F to 140 F will favor degradation of HMWP to MMWP, and minimize
KMD> degradation of MMWP to LMWP?

MBW> Remember its the same enzyme so at higher temps its going to be
less active and produce less of all types of proteins.  132 is at the
high end and 140 you are starting to activate starch conversion. It
shouldnt matter anyway.

***

Oh well, so much for distinguishing between peptidase and proteinase
rests.  Thought this was interesting... comments?  Any takers want to
defend Kunze?  If any of youse xpurtz provide info please use terms us
garage brewers can understand, like use the term sea monkeys instead of
polyphenols, etc.     

Now back to the regularly scheduled program of how botulism will form if
your BAC is > 0.08 and you place your craw/cray-fish/dads/daddys in a
pickle bucket that is stirred with a mixing apparatus.  obligatory
smiley follows... :)

Kyle Druey
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:12:44 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

                    The Jethro Gump Report

>From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
>Subject: Change of heart?
>He then said, "I know who you are... you're one of those guys from
>the brew network!"  He refered to us as "a strange group of weirdos"
>and "cheapskate weirdos."  He said that he has been brewing for
>30 years, and knew more about brewing than anybody on the network.

    Ah, I knew that my former boss had a history, but I always thought that
it was more likely to be found in a Justice Department File, rather than a
homebrew shop....!!!
    One never knows, does one?
jethro




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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:38:56 -0800
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: Berliner Weiss, Baker's Yeast

Jon writes:

>I'm planning a Berliner-Weisse as my first all-grain, any advice from the
>gurus is welcomed.  

Don't know if I qualify as a guru but I'll give it a shot...

>Infusion mashing in 5-gal brewpot with homemade EZmasher, target 155F.
>60 min full volume boil.

This is a little high for the mash temp IMHO. This will give you a much
higher terminal gravity then if you mash at 146-148 which is what I would
shoot for. The biggest problem with attempts at Berliner Weisses that I've
seen is too much malty body and sweetness. In an authentic BerWeiss, I
think that the bacteria help to reduce the dextrines and unfermentable
sugars that would be caused by a higher mash temp. In your case, since you
aren't going to use anything but a pure S. Cerevisiae culture, you won't
have that benefit and will need to mash lower in order to get the proper
dryness in the finish.

>At racking to secondary, add unknown quantity (I've read 1tsp/5gal) of 88%
>food-grade lactic acid to taste.

Let's see, that is about 5mL. You could easily get away with 2-3 times that
amount. I would use that amount for a Dry Stout--a Berliner Weiss could
stand *much more* sourness.

Peter writes:

>I have difficulty reconciling these results with your post that baker's
>yeast use the carbohydrates present in flour.  Could you please
>enlighten us?
>

Hmmm, I don't think that bakers yeast can use the carbs in flour. In every
loaf of bread that I've ever made the recipe calls for sugar (usually 1
Tbsp) which is the food for the yeast.

C--



Charles Hudak in San Diego, California (Living large in Ocean Beach!!)
cwhudak at adnc.com
ICQ# 4253902
"If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs."
- --David Daye




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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 03:04:41 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: calories & carbohydrates in beer

Several HBDer's have written about carbohydrate and calorie levels in
beer. Interested readers may find relevant data on this topic at:

http://www.npac.syr.edu/users/ensmingr/beer/beerdata.html

Cheers!

Peter A. Ensminger
ensmingr at npac.syr.edu


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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 05:46:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Lookit the colors, man! Whoa!

Greetings, Beelings! Take me to your lager...

> Greetings!  I just stopped by the old homebrew store, only to find that
> they now carry "acid malt"...

Dood! That's, like, malt from the sixties, man! Timothy Leary malts. 
Oooooo! Lookit the colors! Groooooviiiiiiieeeeeeeeeee
 
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brewing Page              http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html




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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:13:21 -0800
From: "S. Wesley" <Wesley at maine.maine.edu>
Subject: Contests, Hombrew Stores, Piezo Ignition and Reverse RIMS.

Dear HBD'ers,
	The recent Satan thread brought back some traumatic memories of a 
Home Brew contest I entered and served as a steward at back in the mid 
80's.  The whole experience put me off contests for life.  The judges 
to whom I was serving the beers were often arrogant and ignornant. and 
they semed more focused on showing off their "knowledge" and slamming the 
lower quality beers than providing people with good quality feedback on 
how to improve their brewing.  I hope that this sort of thing does not go 
on any more, but I still can't help but wonder If the enviornment of 
sorting through lots of beers to try to single out the best in a category 
is the best way to provide brewers with helpful feedback on their 
brewing. This to me is the most useful function of contests. As I said I 
hope that contests are doing a better job in this regard today.
	I wonder if a change of format to a homebrew festival might not 
be a more useful medium for exchange of information and feedback. 
Opportunities could be provided for face to face discussions as well as 
written evaluations of beer from a much larger cross section of people.  
What I envision is renting a hall, having sections for each style with 
tables set up. Participants could spend some time serving their beer and 
some time wandering aroung talking to and tasting the beers of others who 
are bringing the same style.  Clearly the logistics of this type of 
operation are daunting and it would require each participant to supply a 
larger quantity of beer than necessary for a contest. It might be 
desirable to restrict the festival to a single style, or limit 
contributions to one style per person to reduce the logistical nightmare.
	I heard ecohes of many experiences I've had with homebrew stores 
In reading Al K's post about Wine & brew By you INC.  I would like to buy 
locally but I often wind up walking out of the store annoyed by the 
behavior of the employees.  Being treated like a cheapskate because I 
refuse to pay $50 for a 25 kilo sack of M&F pale annoys me.  Getting 
unsolicited lectures on brewing techinques from extract brewers with two 
years of experience rubs me the wrong way.  I'm about ready to give up on 
these people and switch to mail order.  Does anyone have a polite but 
effective way of dealing with these kind of people?
	I was wandering through the gas grill section in my local 
department store the other day when I came across a nifty gaget for my 
brewery.  A piezo electric ignition system for propane burners.  I'm sure 
many other people already use them, but I was so tickled by having push 
button ingnition that I thought I'd point out this option for anyone who 
doesn't know about it.
	From time to time I read the postings about RIMS systems and 
wonder if anyone has ever tried running a RIMS system backwards.  I 
believe one of the potential hazards of this type of system is excessive 
compaction of the grain bed. Flow rate, and the rate of temperature 
change as well as overall system size  may be limited because of this. 
Some sort of intake mainifold could be placed at the surface of the mash, 
and fluid could be returned to the mash tun drain.  A more powerful pump 
might be needed to make the whole thing work.  I'd be curious to know if 
anyone has tried this and if so, how it worked. 
				Regards
				Simon

"It was as if nature was hard by and brewing on a large scale"
				-Charles Dickens


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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:19:41 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: What I Wrote/DO

What I have noted here many times is that the broth over yeast starters
which I induce to grow faster by keeping the oxygen level high (i.e. by
passing bursts of oxygen when the DO level gets low) are really foul
tasting, sour and foul smelling. I attribute these unpleasantries to the
metabolic products of yeast growth as opposed to the metabolic products
of yeast ferementation phase. I ensure that a minumum amount of these
products get into the beer by decanting the broth and saving only the
slurry. Of course some of the broth gets into the beer  but its perhaps
only a couple of hundred mL in a 15 gal batch.

Al K. wrote:
>Can someone who has a Dissolved Oxygen meter please see how
>much oxygen still water picks up over the course of 12 hours?

I'm always happy to oblige where convenient. The DO meter is up to snuff
and polarized so I  boiled three gallons of water yesterday AM and
measured when I got home from work some 10 hrs later. The DO was at 63%
of saturation. I let the water stand overnight and measured again. DO
had only increased to 70%. Note that 100% is approached assymptotically
i.e. the rate of increase of DO slows dramatically as more O2 is taken
up. The rate at which O2 enters the water depends on (100 - DO %) and
the surface area of the water. The rate at which a given influx
increases DO depends on the total water (wort) volume. Thus the best way
to get oxygen in is to have a large surface to volume ratio. That's why
fine bubbles work best.


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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:14:01 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: microscopy

Hans asks about what techniques are needed to see and distinguish brewing
bacteria with a microscope.  In my May-June BT column I'll be describing a
number of simple lab tests that can be done with a minimal lab, inclduing
descriptions on some differential techniques that you can use to determine what
bugs you've got growing in your beer or wort.

To answer Hans' question directly, however, what you want to do is gram stain
your samples.  (You'll need a gram staining kit, which contains about 4
different reagents and will almost certainly come with instructions.)  Yeast,
trub, pedios, and lactos stain purple (gram positive); acetos, flavos, and
coliforms stain pink (gram negative).

Be warned, however, that just examining your beer or wort microscopically is
*not*
an adequate QA/QC technique -- in order for you to be able to detect anything
other than grossly-infected beer, you'll need to run some sort of force test or
other culture first.  E.g., a count of 500 bacteria per ml would send the
QA/QC department of any brewery into hysterics -- that's very high.  But one
drop of such beer would contain less than 25 cells, so looking at less than a
drop of that under the scope would be looking for the proverbial needle in the
haystack.

In doing the work up for this column, Jim Liddil graciously send me some of his
cultures of lactos and pedios.  I've stained some slides of these to keep as
reference.  If anyone would like me to do a couple for them, lemme know -- I
need the gram-staining practice.  (Since Jim didn't charge me, I won't charge
you anything except a SASE-- that the HBD way!)

Louis K. Bonham




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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:42:23 -0600
From: Satan 666 <satan666 at poohgee.com>
Subject: Re: Satan bashing


>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:41:43 -0000
>From: "Jim & Shelly Wagner" <wagner at toad.net>
>Subject: Re: offensive behavior
>
 MY GOD!!! I'M OFFENDED!!! I'M
>THE GREATEST BREWER ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH...HOW DARE YOU......give me a
>break, when I saw that "satan" was the cobrewer, I could not stop laughing(
>for those who do not know, references to the devil are often a trademark of
>high gravity Belgian-styled beers) 

Actually, I was quite flattered over the whole reference and would like to
publicly say Thank you to all brewers that list me as a brewing partner. I
will save a special place for you all next to Dave and Al.

I hope this clears up any questions.

 -Satan 

copyright 1998 by satan 

PS... I have your new plaid suit waiting for you to pick it up Pat (Pleased
to meet you... Can you guess my name?)



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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 12:02:12 -0600
From: bob_poirier at adc.com
Subject: RE:  Scratched Glass/Cleaning Primaries


        In HBD #2671, Dan Morley asks:
     
     >Also, what methods of cleaning do people use for cleaning major crud 
     >from glass primary fermenters?
     
        Try B-Brite!  It does a GREAT job of removing all of the junk in 
     glass fermenters, even if you've left the carboy sitting around for a 
     while, and the gunk has totally dried up.  
        It's also great for removing labels, except from Sam Adams bottles 
     - Jim K. must hermetically seal those damned labels to the bottles, 
     because I can't ever get them clean without some major elbow grease!  
     Anybody got any tips?
        B-Brite uses active oxygen as the main cleaning agent (I think).  
     Just mix 1 tablespoon per gallon of HOT water (the hotter the better, 
     I've found).  And once the B-Brite has done it's job, rinse with COLD 
     water (once again, the colder the better).
        WARNING!!!  Be very careful when handling full carboys that you're 
     cleaning with B-Brite, because it makes the glass slick as hell!!  
     It's almost like you've poured dish soap all over the carboy.  
        I've witness a carboy full of fresh wort (after an exhaustive 
     all-grain demo) get dropped because of trace amounts of B-Brite 
     solution on the carboy.  Don't try this trick at home!!!
        Good luck, and please, BE CAREFUL!!!  Beer (in any form) is a 
     terrible thing to waste!
     
        Bob Poirier
        bob_poirier at adc.com




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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:38:53 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Baker's yeast

Brewsters:

Peter Ensminger ( Hi, Peter) comments on the glycogen in
Baker's Yeast and its respiration behavior towards glucose
being dependent on the glycogen level in the yeast. For this
experiment, low glycogen yeast were starved in a medium
that was heavily oxygenated. Respiration of the starved yeast
showed a positive response to increased glucose compared
to the glycogen rich (supposedly) yeast.  There was one detail
left out of the experimental description. What were the glycogen
rich yeast respiring, if not glucose? Since you followed the
experiment with an oxygen probe, wasn't the experiment you
mentioned just measuring oxygen uptake? This was a measure
of aerobic catabolism or respiration, but in order to take up
oxygen a carbon source had to be involved.  Of course, the
yeast were also able to ferment the glucose anaerobically
and this experiment did not measure that.

Bakers yeast is grown in a fully oxygenated wort as I recall.I
suspect the total glycogen content of a one ounce packet of
yeast is only a few grams and even if it were all converted to
carbon dioxide wouldn't do much to raise a loaf of bread.I
guess the answer to your question is another question.
Why *wouldn't* Bakers yeast consume the simple carbohydrates
that exist in the bread dough- independent of their glycogen level?
I believe the malted barley in most bread flour is there to provide
a source of simple carbohydrates for the yeast, presumably
from its own sugar content and possibly to also saccharify the flour.

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:38:30 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: re:RIMS cleaning

In digest #2673, William Macher asked:

<I wonder...how much hassle is a rims system with
respect to cleaning/sanitizing?

Speaking from the "coil" school of RIMS (HEARMS actually), I've
developed a routine that works quite well for me.

After my sparge, I flush IGOR's piping out with water to get the last
remains of wort out, then start a CIP routine using a PBW solution. I
cycle the solution through the system while heating it with rinse water
in the HLT at the same time. After about 30 minutes of circulating, the
solution is heated to about 160F. I then pump out the PBW solution, and
flush the piping with the heated water from the HLT.

I haven't disassembled the piping and visually inspected for sludge at
this point, but I have no off flavors or infection problems, and I don't
have to disassemble anything.

Cleaning out the mash tun is more work than cleaning the piping system.

Good Luck,

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://andinator.com/zymico/rims.html

RIMS= Recirculating Infusion Mash System
HEARMS= Heat Exchange Automated Recirculating Mash System
PBW= Powdered Brewery Wash
CIP= Clean In Place





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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:09:30 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: Unknown Yeast Strain (Ringwood?)

 ........"Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>.......
>The strain is described by the Brewmaster as "Ringwood" and he also
>referred to it as "1187". I looked it up in Fixs' Analysis of Brewing
>Techniques and it mentioned Food Research Institute's Norwich NCYC 1187
>and also gave an unnumbered Wyeast strain. After exhaustive research on
>the Internet trying to find more info on this strain, I have drawn a
>blank. 
 ...........This sounds like the yeast used by the micro 'Hopback' in
England ... I trapped and isolated the yeast from their 'summer lightning'
last year... and it has worked well for me... if it is the same yeast I
would describe it as a spicy with a bright character... it seems to have
fairly high attenuation and settles out nicely
___________________________________________
    JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 20:24:55 -0500
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at htp.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Carbohydrates

Kevin J MacRae writes:

>Does anyone have an idea of the carbs in beer?  
>I'm not too interested in the calories, just the carbs.



M&BS pg 784 gives the following data:

" The total carbohydrates in beer can be estimated as the colour produced by
anthrone in 85% sulphuric acid. For a range of beers, values between
0.89-5.98% w/v  as glucose were found. Fully attenuated low carbohydrate
'lite' beers which have been brewed in the past for diabetic patients, are
now available with carbohydrate contents between 0.4-0.9% w/v as glucose." 

1.0% w/v corresponds to 1 g / 100ml ( or 1 kg / 100 liters ). Since there
are approximately 355 ml in a 12 ounce bottle this would correspond to 3.2 -
21.3 gms per bottle for the regular beers tested and 1.4 - 3.2 gms for the
'lite' beers for diabetics 


Jim Bentson
Centerport NY 
- --
Registered ICC User
check out http://www.usefulware.com/~jfoltz




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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 06:52:03 EST
From: Golgothus <Golgothus at aol.com>
Subject: Re:Grand Cru Style?

In HBD 2672 Ted Manahan writes:

<Here's a question I'm working with. I brewed a credible knock-off of>
<Rodenbach Grand Cru. For those of you who haven't tried this classic,>
<it's surprisingly sour and aromatic. It can be startling if the drinker>
<isn't ready for it.>

<So the question is - what category should I use in the AHA competition?>

<to expect, and if I enter under Belgian Strong Dark they may not be>
<informed of the specific sub style.>

<Go our and buy a bottle, and let me know what you think. Thanks for your.
<thoughts!>

<Ted Manahan>
<tedm at cv.hp.com>
<541/715-2856>

<PS - I can't resist bragging. Rodenbach Grand Cru costs about $5.00 a>
<bottle. My home brewed version is pretty close in taste, and I have>
<almost ten gallons of the stuff. Beer geek heaven, I tell you!>
	
	Hey Ted,
		As far as I can see, Grand Cru is a specialty Belgian White ... though your
comment on entering it in the Belgian Strong Dark makes me wonder if my
information is correct.  I have it listed as color: 2-4 SRM's.  I don't really
know much about this style of beer, but that's the info I have on hand at this
time.  If I am wrong, I hope someone will take the time to correct me. 
		I would be interested in the recipe, (or even some general advice if you
wish to keep it a secret for now) as I plan to brew a Grand Cru in the near
future (within the month I hope) and I only have one recipe, which is the one
that is in Papazian's book.  Any information on this style would be helpful,
and appreciated (from any source).  I am still a neophyte to the brew world
and to many of the styles out there, and need all the help I can get.  TIA.

______________________________________________________________________________
_________
		About the I 65 pub crawl and possible stops asked about by Jim Booth...
When you get WAY down here in south Alabama, look for the Port City Brewery (1
(334) 438-2739) in Mobile and, if you don't mind the drive to Pensacola, Fl.
you should check out the Brews Brothers Tavern (the have 18 rotating taps and
approximately 130 beers on ice ... worth the trouble if you ask me).  I don't
have their number, but they should be listed with Long Distance Information.
Let me know what you think ... if you can find time to stop.

______________________________________________________________________________
_________
		I would also like to take this time to thank David R. Burley and David
Luckie for their helpful input on sake and dry hopping (respectively), the
information is greatly appreciated.

Thank you all for your help

Michael Whitt
Brewster and wandering Philosopher
Bragi's Brewery
Mobile, Alabama

Golgothus at aol.com
"He who lives by the skull, will die by the skull."


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---