---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Carbohydrates in beer ("Hans E. Hansen")
  Spring house lagering...rims cleaning (william macher)
  Berliner Weisse questions (Jon McCoy)
  Re:Thermostat ("Raymond C. Steinhart")
  Re: RIMS PUMPS ("Raymond C. Steinhart")
  mudbugs (John Bowerman)
  MixMasher observations (Jack Schmidling)
  microscope (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  baker's yeast (ensmingr)
  Element in boiler (Lars Bjornstad)
  Using a handpull beer engine to dispense from corn kegs (Tony Barnsley)
  Picnic Cooler (Forrest Taylor)
  B-Brite Info Needed ("Briden, Thomas")
  Dunkels (Chas Peterson)
  Re: baker's yeast (Jeff Renner)
  Yeast Washing (Lcllamas)
  Neo-prohibitionism (Good work George) ("Tony Quinn")
  Talking Thermometer (Kyle Druey)
  Malto dextrin vs. lactose (Cava Christopher)
  Kolsch Kuestions; win a trip for two to Ireland (kathy)
  hop tea haze (Domenick Venezia)
  RE:Munich Dunkel ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Bakers yeast... (Some Guy)
  Proposed USA Federal 0.08 percent driving limit (Samuel Mize)
  Change of heart? (Al Korzonas)
  Acid Malt (Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii/FSU)
  hop tea haze (Al Korzonas)
  Re: distilled water yeats storage (Scott Murman)
  Re: offensive behavior ("Jim & Shelly Wagner")
  Garbage bag fermenting and mudbugs (Heflin)




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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 18:14:02 
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Carbohydrates in beer

Kevin J MacRae writes:

>Does anyone have an idea of the carbs in beer?  
>I'm not too interested in the calories, just the carbs.  

I was just thinking about this.  This would be of value to diabetics, as 
well as people like me who are just trying to shed a few pounds.

I figured out a few ways of crudely guesstimating carbs, but hopefully 
those chemists out there can do better.  Anyway, here goes:

Max carbos could be estimated from the original gravity.  i.e. if the beer 
was 1.045 OG, this would imply that there is the equivalent of 1 pound 
of sugar per gallon since sugar has 45 'degrees' of extract.  (I know, 
I know.  Different carbohydrates could have different gravities.
Remember, I am crudely guessing here.).  1 pound of sugar per gallon 
would be about 450 grams or about 45 grams per 12 oz bottle.  I think 
this would be the outside limit of carbos in the finished beer.  I think 
some of these carbos break down into non-carbo stuff such as 
CO2, etc., so the actual # of grams would probably be less. (Chemists: 
please help!)

Looking at it from the viewpoint of the finished beer:  If you know the 
finishing gravity and the % alcohol (derived from the starting gravity), 
you can estimate the residual carbos like above and add to it the 
carbos from the alcohol.  The biggest fly in the ointment here is the 
finishing gravity is distorted by the alcohol being lighter than the water 
making up the bulk of the solution.  Using this method:
1.011 would imply 1/4 pound of sugar left in solution (see caveats 
above) per gallon, or about 11 or so grams per bottle.  Now for the 
alcohol component: 1 12 oz bottle is about 1/3 liter, or lets say 350ml  
(I don't have the exact conversion in front of me).  If the beer is 3.0%, 
this would be 10.5 grams of alcohol, giving the total carbos to be 
21.5 grams per bottle.  This method probably underestimates the 
actual content.  I use an average of this method and that one in the 
previous paragraph.

Boy, I sure hope someone actually knows the correct answer to 
this one.




Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com




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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:57:35
From: william macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Spring house lagering...rims cleaning

Hello all,

I happen to have an old spring house foundation and a good year-round spring.

Seems like this could be the ideal setup for lagering...or even perhaps for
summer ale making. Just build a new spring house...and I will be in business.

Anyone out there use a spring for keeping the fermenting wort cool? I have
not measured the spring temperature...but in summer it is quite
cold...about 55F or less?

Rims question:

I am probably (almost certainly, already have two kegs...) going to build a
3-tier system...but I wonder...how much hassle is a rims system with
respect to cleaning/sanitizing? We hear much about the advantages of
rims...in the _beer making_ process...but how about the disadvanteges of
rims related to cleaning the system? Much different than a 3-tier system? I
could afford to build a rims I think...but wonder if I would properly
sanitize the system after building it. I can imagine what needs to be done
with the 3-tier...is a rims sysem that much different, for cleaning?

Been lurking for a year or so...don't think the spring question has come up
in this time...if ever. I have tried to check the archives...but mostly
find seasonal spring or mechanical spring...

Bill




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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:24:34 -0800
From: Jon McCoy <shooter at aa.net>
Subject: Berliner Weisse questions

I'm planning a Berliner-Weisse as my first all-grain, any advice from the
gurus is welcomed.  Guessed (5-gal) recipe so far is:

2.5# pale malt (2-row or 6-row?) (American or British?)
2.5# German wheat malt
0.5oz Hallertauer (probably Yakima Valley, USA type) - 60min
0.5oz Hallertauer - 10 min
Leftover AmericanII Wyeast from last low-gravity batch

Infusion mashing in 5-gal brewpot with homemade EZmasher, target 155F.
60 min full volume boil.
Crash chill with immersion chiller to 70F.
Rack off trub and debris, primary in plastic for ~three days.
Split secondary, half over raspberry fruit, half plain.
At racking to secondary, add unknown quantity (I've read 1tsp/5gal) of 88%
food-grade lactic acid to taste.

None of the books I've looked at (so far) have any info, besides style
descriptions and mention of L. delbruckii inoculation at pitching.  I don't
really want to pitch bacteria this early in my experimentation, so I'm
willing to just go for the 1-dimensional sourness of lactic acid. In all
other ways, I want to keep it as simple as possible on brewday.

Thanks for any help you can offer.


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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:25:31 -0600
From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Re:Thermostat

Jon,  The reason you are not supposed to cycle a freezer at higher
temperatures is because at higher temperatures the compressor is running
at higher internal pressures causing the compressor to work harder.

If you set a thermostat up with a differential of about 3 degrees (F) 
you should not have a problem.

I purchased a Ranco thermostat which has a LCD readout of actual
temperature, diagnostics, a 1 to 33 degree F adjustable differential, a
built in timer to prevent the compressor from turning back on after a
power outage (this prevents compressor overload if you had a brief
outage or brownout).  

Available at WW Grainger here in the states. Ranco number
ETC-111000-000.

It also has a flexible temperature probe that won't get damaged by
laying it between the lid and the base of the freezer.

I bought it for about $50.00, this is probably one of my better finds.

Incidentally for all you gadgeteers, Ranco also makes a temperature
controller (same style) with a 0-10V analog output.  

I suppose you could use this for heating as well because it is a
heating/cooling thermostat and has a operating range of -30F to 220F

Ray Steinhart 
Brewers of South Suburbia




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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:44:26 -0600
From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Re: RIMS PUMPS

I don't think a bronze body is going to hold up real well against the
 acidity of the wort.  Ideally it would be made entirely out of
 Polyphenylene Sulfide (PPS- Ryton TM, Fortron TM).  My pump is made out
 of Polysulphone which really is a bit overkill from a design standpoint
 for our application, but I couldn't get one out of PPS.  Incidentally, 
I bought mine from Moving Brews.  Don't have the address but they are 
on the Web.  After purusing many catalogues and sources, I found them 
to have the greatest selection and best prices.
 
 Ray Steinhart
 Brewers of South Suburbia



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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:12:33 -0800
From: John Bowerman <jbowerma at kfalls.net>
Subject: mudbugs

In HBD 2671 someone named MADwand wrote:

> some yankee recently said he had crawfish at one time and didn't
like
> them because of the muddy taste ...

I do believe that's damnyankee ...



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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:20:26 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: MixMasher observations

Alex Santic <alex at brainlink.com>

"My initial batch used 9.5 lbs of grain and 3.5 gals water. This fills a 
10 gal Polarware kettle considerably less than half full...

I would think that changing nothing but the fan blade size (smaller)
would equalize everything for a smaller batch size.

Sounds like you are having fun but I feel it's only a matter of
evolution that folks gravitate to 10 gallon batches sooner or later.

js


- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........  http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......  http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:35:14 +0100
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: microscope

Hello brewers,

AJ writes in HBD 2664 about a microscope. I have bought a used one (in
good condition) and I'm trying to use it for checking my brews.
Enlargment possible 15 x 40 and even 15 x 100 with oil-immersionlens.
But I'm not sure how to distinguish between small bacteria (coccus,
sarcina) and trub. I can recognize for instance Lactobacteria (rods with
approx. 1/2 length of the diameter of a yeastcel (not often Thank
goodness!). Is there an (easy) way? Some staining method perhaps?
Is there a good book which I should read?
I don't have access to Internet (only E-mail).
Greetings from Holland,
Hans Aikema




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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:37:03 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: baker's yeast

Jeff Renner and HBDers,

I was interested in Jeff Renner's recent HBD post (#2670-13) on baker's
yeast.  

My understanding was that baker's yeast (e.g., Fleishman's) has an
enormous  supply of glycogen and that this must be depleted before the
yeast uses an exogenous sugar.  In fact, when I was a biology TA (at
Univ. of Michigan, BTW), we used baker's yeast for student
demonstrations/experiments which were based on very well known studies
of yeast respiration from the 1960's (by Britton Chance et al. of the
Johnson Institute, Univ. of Penn.).  One basic experiment compared two
batches of yeast:

Batch #1 preparation: dissolve baker's yeast in buffer and "wash" them.

Batch #2 preparation: dissolve baker's yeast in buffer and "wash" them,
then "starve" them for 2-3 days by vigorously bubbling in air.

We had students measure respiration of the two batches of yeast with an
oxygen electrode.  Batch #1 respired rapidly; however, respiration did
not increase when glucose was added, presumably because the yeast had so
much internal glycogen.  Batch #2 respired slowly because it had little
internal carbohydrate; however, adding glucose dramatically increased
the respiration rate.  

I have difficulty reconciling these results with your post that baker's
yeast use the carbohydrates present in flour.  Could you please
enlighten us?

TIA,

Peter A. Ensminger
ensmingr at npac.syr.edu


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:59:48 +0100
From: Lars Bjornstad <siv95043 at vm.bi.no>
Subject: Element in boiler

First of all, thanks to all who answered my question on "mash water
calculations" a while back. I tried all the calculations/programs, but I
still didn't get close to the amount I use. I haven't had time to perform
any experiments, but next time I'll check the temp. of my "boiling" water. I
suspect that might be the problem.

To the point; we plan to upgrade our brewing system to 12-13 gal batches. We
have a great SS vessel, and our intention was to use an electric water
heater element in the boiler. Would a 4500 W (240 V) element be OK, or would
it scorch the wort? Has anyone tried this? (we use 240 V here in Europe). I
know low density elements are the ones to use, but on
PlumbingSupply/warehouse/world.com (does anyone know this company??) I saw
something called "Extra Low Density incoloy/wrinkle style" elements ($23).

Is anyone familiar with this type of element, would it be better to use in a
boiler?

Advice apperciated
TIA,


                                                                 


Lars Bjornstad
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Golden Droplet (brewing): http://www.ifi.uio.no/~ketilf/draapen.cgi
Gartnerlosjen: http://www.uio.no/~ahaavard/lars/gartner.htm 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:53:43 -0000
From: Tony Barnsley <Tony.Barnsley at riva-group.com>
Subject: Using a handpull beer engine to dispense from corn kegs

Hi All,

I am intending to add a corny keg setup to my bits and pieces to play
with. I have found a homebrew dealer in the UK that sells everything I
need (Kegs are expensive at 35 pounds each). One thing I noticed in the
shop was a really nice handpull beer engine that I think will look great
on the bar.

How can I connect this up to a corny keg? According to the guy at the
shop you can only pressurize the keg to 2-3 psi, before it overcomes the
seals in the handpull and out flows your beer.

I know about setting up a balanced dispense system by varying the length
of the beer line, does this only affect the dynamic pressure drop whilst
serving, or does it also decrease the static pressure while the tap is
closed.

I would really like to hit the keg pressure up to about 25 psi and then
drop it down using 12 ft of 3/8" dispense line. If I can't do that then
I intend to get a 3 or 4 tap Scottish style dispenser, which really
looks the business.

Wassail and TIA

Tony ( Blackpool, Lancashire , UK )
Tony.Barnsley at riva-group.com 
personal replies welcome


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:09:02 -0500
From: taylorf at fcis.com (Forrest Taylor)
Subject: Picnic Cooler

I would love to have a double picnic cooler to serve my corney kegged beer
in the summer. Unfortunately I could not afford it and the divorce my wife
would serve me with if I purchased it. Does anyone have a parts list for a
homemade picnic cooler? I was thinking about using copper coils and cobra
head taps to save money. How do you clean it?

Thanks,

Forrest Taylor
Woodbridge, Va. 


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:34:52 -0500
From: "Briden, Thomas" <TBRIDEN at erisco.com>
Subject: B-Brite Info Needed

Randy Shreve wrote:

>B-brite has been my sanitizer of choice from the beginning and I am still
>using it because....well....I've always used it!

>Two points of confusion that I need to have clarified:

>1.  What is the recommended minimum contact time?

>2.  How long does the stuff maintain it's potency after it has been mixed?
>(for that matter, how long does the average male HBD member maintain his
>potency after being mixed with numerous homebrews??!??)

B-Brite is NOT a sanitizer, it is a mighty effective cleaner, but has no
or very little sanitizing capability.  If you don't believe me, read the
label and look for the word "sanitizer", you won't find it.  The only
batch of beer I ever infected was when I assumed, as do many folks, that
B-Brite would sanitize my starter bottle. It did not, and I know this
because the starter was used in a split batch and only the one half got
infected (the other non-infected starter was boiled and cooled in a
Pyrex flask).
I still use B-Brite for most of my cleaning needs (it is the most
effective remover of hop residue I've seen). I think a lot of folks get
away with using B-Brite as a sanitizer simply because it CLEANS so well,
but in my experience, it can't be counted on to really kill any bugs. (I
hope this doesn't start a war, as this is my first post here).

Tom Briden


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:47:19 -0500
From: Chas Peterson <chasp at digex.net>
Subject: Dunkels

HBDers -

Matt writes in distress about the lack of Dunkle formulations around.  Try
and get a copy of an old BT (spring 95, i think); it had a very interesting
article on this style.  The upshot, as I recall, is that most German
brewers go with a mash of almost 100% Munich malt and either double or
triple decoct.  I simply love this style -- and its brother, Schwartzbier,
and was also disappointed that it did not make Ray's book (guess you gotta
stop somewhere).

Here are my suggestions:

Use at least 50% Munich malt, with the balance lager (Klages is fine) and
specialty malts
I like to use a measured amount of special B and Biscuit 
I also use a small amount of chocolate malt (1/8# per 5 ga), even though
the AHA Guidelines recommend against this
Try a bunch of different Munich malts -- I used 3 kinds this year: Durst,
Monravian, and DWC
I wouldn't think of using anything but Wyeast Bavarian strain, preferably
on its second pitch

You've got the IBUs pegged right -- depends a lot on you water sulfate
makeup -- but hop flavor is up to you.  I personally don't like to have the
hop flavor compete with the maltiness of the brew.  A Schwartzbier, OTOH,
is a bit heavier and has the malt backbone to stand up to some pretty hefty
hop flavor additions.

Happy Brewing,

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md
===========================================================
Chas Peterson					chasp at digex.net
Director - Product Development			301-847-4936
Custom Enterprise Networks


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:49:45 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: baker's yeast

 ensmingr at npac.syr.edu wrote:
>My understanding was that baker's yeast (e.g., Fleishman's) has an
>enormous  supply of glycogen and that this must be depleted before the
>yeast uses an exogenous sugar. <snip>
>
>I have difficulty reconciling these results with your post that baker's
>yeast use the carbohydrates present in flour.  Could you please
>enlighten us?

Well, I leave the detailed biochemistry to biochemists or microbiologists
(although I do have an M.S. in biology myself).  Baker's yeast may have
lots of glycogen, but I suspect that they are reproducing, so that in
itself would decrease the glycogen reserves per cell. Regardless, I suspect
the glycogen reserves would be depleted pretty quickly.  At any rate,
bakers' yeast certainly consumes sugars and produces alcohol and CO2, just
like brewer's yeast:

>From _Ingredients for Bakers_, Samuel A. Matz, Pan-Tech International
(McAllen, TX: 1987), p 51:  "The sugars which are consumed in fermentation
are usually the simplest sugars glucose or fructose which result from the
action of enzymes on the larger molecules of sucrose, maltose, starch or
similar relatively complex carbohydrates. ... starch and dextrins cannot be
broken down by bakers' yeast.  Enzymes present in flour, or diastaatic
malt, are responsible for the production of sugars from the starches
present in doughs."

If it weren't for this phenomonen, dough would hardly rise at all.  I
certainly see evidence of this all the time, as I posted, in the slower
browning of loaves of long fermented dough in the oven.  A slice of my
French bread (fermented >18 hours) takes a much higher toaster setting to
color, than does commercial 3 hour bread.  (As you probably know, there is
a similar movement in the bread business to brewing for hand crafted,
quality, traditional products- I have a "microbakery.")

Jeff

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:58:08 EST
From: Lcllamas <Lcllamas at aol.com>
Subject: Yeast Washing

I would be very happy to hear from those of you who re-pitch your yeast from
batch to batch.  How do you wash your yeast?  I have read about washing the
yeast before re-pitching but very little on the actual mechanics.  I use a
conical fermentor that works great for harvesting the yeast, but it is never
the beautiful creamy white layer that is read about even after allowing it to
set in the refrigerator and settle.  I brew mainly light colored German style
lagers but there is always a lot of gunk mixed in with the yeast coloring it
as well as creating a very unpleasant look.  I have tried adding water and
decanting it off of the bottom numerous times and it gets better, but never as
good as I would like.  It works well when repitching with very little lag
time, but I usually cringe when I pour it back into a new wort.  I haven't
been able to detect any detriment to the finished product however so maybe I
am worry too much.  I would appreciate any comments.
Larry Crumrine
Lcllamas at aol.com  


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:14:52 +0000
From: "Tony Quinn" <aquinn at postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Neo-prohibitionism (Good work George)

Frank Conway" <fconway at wpg.sunquest.com>
in a response to George De Piro wrote

> Also, what is the real difference between your current .1 level and
> .08? Not much, so why be concerned.

 George already answered this question and he's absolutely spot on.  

>>     George De Piro wrote:
>>     If you ignore this now, you'll pay for it later.  MADD and the
>>     other neo-prohibitionists won't stop at 0.08.  Zero tolerance 
>>      is their goal!

>I could have gone on about how the people of the USA are paranoid
>about government interference in their lives, but this is a brewing
>forum, not a political one.  So I won't.

<sarcasm mode on>

Yeah - Thanks for not going on about it!   And please don't let the 
Queen know that the damn colonists are acting up again. After all, 
parliment's not interferring, it's just looking out for our welfare.  
We'll be happy to quarter soldiers in our homes.  Pay taxes 
without representation? Sure.  Submit to whimsical searches and 
siezures? Come on down.  We promise to be good, just don't raise the 
taxes on  beer and rum or you might really irritate someone. 
<sarcasm mode off>

Justice (you know -- those guys with the funny white wigs) Louis D. 
Brandeis wrote:  :

"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect 
liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to
freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by
evilminded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious
encroachment by men of zeal, wellmeaning but without understanding. --
dissenting, Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 479 (1928)" 

Tony (Where's my musket and powder horn? ) Quinn		
	



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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 06:52:36 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Talking Thermometer

A month or so ago the HBD's own blind brewer was inquiring about a
talking thermometer to assist him with his brews.  I stumbled across
what is called an alarm thermometer.  It has an audible alarm that
signals when the temp is out of your range.  Here is the VWR catalog
description:

* Traceable
* Reads in Fahrenheit and Celsius
* Audible Alarm Signals Out of Range
* Auto Alarm Reset

Perfect for measuring temperatures in cuvets, gas systems, soil, water
baths, incubators, foods, waste water, etc. Designed for years of
reliable service even in severe lab or harsh plant environments.
This VWRbrand Alarm Thermometer measures to 0.1deg. with accuracy of
1deg.. Readout and alarm ranges are -67.0 to 298.8deg.F and -55 to
148.8deg.C. When temperature rises above or falls below the programmable
set point, an audible alarm signals. Alarm automatically resets when
temperature returns "in range." Alarm mode may be switched off.
Supplied with a fast response, universal 17.8 cm probe (liquids,
semisolids and air/gas), with 3 ft. cable. Equipped with replaceable AAA
battery. Supplied with a serial numbered certificate to indicate
traceability to standards provided by the National Institute of
Standards and Technology. Six year warranty.

Description        VWR Catalog #       Price
Alarm Thermometer  61161-274           42.75 



You can find the VWR (telephone 1 800 932 5000) catalog at:

http://www.vwrsp.com/catalog/catalog2.html

I am not sure, but I am guessing that this thermometer has a memory so
when you shut it off it will retain  your range.  This could be perfect
for mashing, just set a high range of 151 F and a low range of 149 F,
crank up the heat when the temp falls and the alarm sounds, then turn
the heat off when it sounds again.  Maybe you could get another one for
the sparge water.    

Kyle Druey
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:31:14 -0500
From: cavac at stjohns.edu (Cava Christopher)
Subject: Malto dextrin vs. lactose

Do lactose and Malto Dextrin have the same effect and can they be used
interchangeably?  When would either be added.  I am still using extract kits
and am curious as to the effect either would have.  We are about to start a
porter (have not worked our way up to a stout yet) and thought this would be
a good time to "experiment" with lactose.  Is this a really bad idea?  Can
the Lactose/malto dextrin be added at bottling so I only run the risk of
ruining half the batch?  Is lactose mainly for stouts?  If so does it's
effects go beyond just "body" - i.e. is there an effect on color, head
retention, reduction in bitterness (it is a sugar of sorts - yes?)?
I know that some of these questions are old hat for most of you; so I
appreciate the information.  The list has been a major source of helpful
hints and information.


Christopher Cava
Information Tech.
St. John's University
cavac at stjohns.edu
Voice: 718-990-1367
Fax: 718-990-2002
8000 Utopia Parkway
Jamaica, NY  11439



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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:38:54 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Kolsch Kuestions; win a trip for two to Ireland

My  latest Kolsch had a pronounced corn smell.  It tastes OK but the
nose is different than I expected.  I used the same malt and methodology
for 3 separate recipes that day changing only the yeast (and amount of
malt), and the Kolsch was the only one that is "corny".  

I primary fermented at 65F but my chest freezer went Kaput! and I was
unable do the secondary at 40F with a restoration to 60F for a DMS
consumption phase by the yeast.  

My questions are 1) does the Wyeast 2565 "Kolsch" yeast throw a corn/DMS
twang?  2) Did the absence of the cold lagering and subsequent DMS
consumption rest at 60F contribute to the corn smell?  Does the DMS fit
in the kolsch profile?

Incidentally, Ray Danials in "Designing Great Beers" makes no mention of
water softness for Kolsch, while the latest BT article on Kolsch
emphasizes soft water is essential.  The excellent BT issue came too
late for me to use a blend of RO water as per my lagers.


Killians (no connection yadda yadda but I do like their brown ale) has a
"Trip to Ireland Sweepstakes" one can enter by internet at
www.killians.com.  I'm not a great fan of Miller Brewing but it would be
great if some HBD'r got a trip around Ireland for two courtesy of Miller
Brewing.  Internet entries must be received by 12:01am   April 3, 1998
An extended report on the experience would be expected from you winners.

cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi




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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:51:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: hop tea haze


Dan Morley reports that adding a hop tea at bottling time made his
beer hazy.

My guess is that the hop tea introduced tannins (polyphenols) to the
beer and these reacted with the left over protein and created
protein/polyphenol complexes that manifest as haze.  Basically this
is a chill haze that occurs at room temp.  It will settle over time,
perhaps over a long time.  The good news is that it has no effect
on flavor.

Cheers!

Domenick Venezia   demonick at zgi.antispam.com (remove .antispam)



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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:13:23 -0500
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: RE:Munich Dunkel

In HDB2672 Matthew Arnold asks for help with a recipe for Munich Dunkel:

Matthew,
I too wanted to brew this fine style after a recent visit to Vail,
Colorado and sampling (or more appropriately quaffing) it at a new
brauhaus (sp) there. I searched all over for some recipes and didn't
find much. I personally have never followed any recipes exactly, but
more or less use them as guidelines. After reviewing Greg Noonan's book,
New Brewing Lager Beer, I decided to use his recipe for Munich Dark as a
guideline. I have long regarded him as the Lager Guru for sure! 
Anyway, I came up with this following recipe and brewed it about a week
ago. I cannot attest to the outcome yet because it is still in the
primary fermenter, but all signs indicate that it will come out fine.
Here it is:
Grand Slam Dunkel  - 6 US Gallons
Water - 9 gallons (6.3 pure, 2.7 tap) .25 tsp Citric acid for 5.8 pH
Treatment - 1 tsp CaCO3, .5 tsp CaSO4, .25 tsp CaCl
          - (note: All salts added to the mash)
5#   - Weyermann Pilsner Malt
5#   - Weyermann Light Munich Malt
2#   - Briess American 6 Row Malt
1#   - CaraMunich Malt
8 oz - Crystal Malt (40L)
2 oz - Chocolate Malt
1 oz - Black Patent Malt
1 oz - Mt. Hood hop plugs (4.2% - boil 75 min)
1 oz - Liberty hop plus (3.3% - boil 45 min)
1 oz - German Mittelfruh (yes real ones!) whole hops (4.8% - boil 15 min
1 tsp  Irish Moss Flakes (in boil 15 min)
1800 ml Wyeast #2206 Bavarian Lager 

I used a combination single decoction, step mash routine with the temp
rests at 105/138/153F and did a 10 min. mashout at 167. Lautering and
boiling and all the rest is pretty much the same as any lager brewing.
The above recipes numbers are a touch high according to AHA style
standards as far as IBU's are concerned, but that all depends on how you
figure your hop efficiency. Additionally, I ended up with alot higher OG
and extract efficiency than I had planned. I collected 6.25 gallons of
1.064 wort which according to my brewing software is about 91% EE. YMMV.
It might have been due to the new MaltMill (tm) I used or the decoction.
The jury is still out on that one! (See recent post in HBD). I am now
fermenting it at 50F and plan on doing a 48F secondary and then lagering
it for a month or so. I do six gallon batches so I can keg 5, and bottle
the rest for friends, competitions, etc. 
Anyway, just thought you might like the recipe.

Good Luck and Cheers!    
======================================================================
Captain Marc Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
Future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:25:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Bakers yeast...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Most bread recipes I've made call for the addition of sugar. In that 
case, that's what the yeasties be eatin'. I wasn't aware that flour had 
any dastatic enzymes in it. Is the grain malted before milling? I don't 
think so, but one never knows if one never asks...

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brewing Page              http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html




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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:39:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Proposed USA Federal 0.08 percent driving limit

Greetings,

I apologize for this use of bandwidth.  I want to explain to our
foreign readers why some of us oppose the proposed USA federal 0.08
percent blood-alcohol driving limit.

I also want to get our USA readers to contact their congresspersons.

I don't believe this proposal is about road safety.  It's about
building a national prohibitionist political power base.  We don't
want that.  It's the kind of "salami" tactics that gave us prohibition
before.  (Get the salami one slice at a time.)

Note, however, that many MADD people work with states, cities and
communities for education, more road patrols, stricter and more
even-handed sentencing.  These don't build a prohibitionist power
base, they just reduce accidents and deaths.  I applaud these people.

I hate drunk driving.  A friend and mentor of mine, and his family,
were killed by a drunk driver.  Someone who drinks and drives home is
a murder waiting to happen.

But I oppose this particular federal boondoggle.

FIRST, IT WILL ACCOMPLISH NOTHING.  No horde of drivers is being
stopped, released for a BAC of 0.08 to 0.10, and then wreaking havoc.
As James Tomlinson said on alt.politics:

  85 percent of ... crash injuries involve drivers with no blood
  alcohol at all.  [Of the rest] 93 percent involve drivers with a
  BAC of 0.10 or higher.

David Howse writes that Australia has had a uniform limit of 0.05 for
years.  The state of Victoria doubled random breath testing from 1994
to 1994.  20% fewer people died, and the number of drivers testing
over the legal limit decreased 21.6%.  He meant to support a 0.05
percent limit, yet his own data show that the difference was improving
enforcement, NOT reducing the limit.

People either drink and drive, or they don't.  They don't monitor
their blood alcohol to within 0.02 percent.  This mandate will make no
real change.

SECOND, IT WILL DIVERT ENFORCEMENT FUNDS.  Changing a law costs a lot:
reprinting documents, retraining officers, publicizing the change,
processing borderline cases.  That money comes from the same bucket as
enforcement money.  James Tomlinson noted:

  this proposed federal bludgeoning will divert limited police,
  prosecutorial, and judicial resources away from drinker-drivers
  that account for 93 percent of the problem and toward a low-risk
  group that accounts for only 2.6 percent of the problem -- which
  is exactly why the founder of MADD, whose daughter was killed by
  a repeat offender with a BAC over 0.20, is publicly opposed to
  lowering the permissible BAC.

THIRD, MATTERS LIKE DRUNK DRIVING POLICY ARE STATE ISSUES.  In the
USA, power is balanced between the states and the federal government.
The states would be blackmailed: enact Federal policy, or they'll tax
you anyway and return nothing.  Yes, this has been done before.  It
was wrong then, it's wrong now.

Yours for responsible and safe brewing, consumption and government,
Samuel Mize


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:26:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Change of heart?

Lewis writes:
>I have a culture from rogue shakesphere stout what is it? and more
>important where is it from? is this the pack man yeast? I will be using it
>soon! and will see if it compares to any other yeast in my collection.
> 
> 
>- ---------------------------------------------
>Lewis Good
>Wine & brew By you INC.
>Serving South Florida Since 1969
<snip>

Seems as though the people at Wine & brew By you INC. have had a change
of heart.  About 8 years ago, I placed an order with them and received
nine-month-old Wyeast.  When I called and complained that the package said
that it should be used within 4 months, I was told by a very angry
man to send back the yeast and that he would refund my money.  I told him
that I did not contest the fact that the yeast could still be used to make
fine beer but rather that I did not want to pay full price for outdated yeast.

He then said, "I know who you are... you're one of those guys from
the brew network!"  He refered to us as "a strange group of weirdos"
and "cheapskate weirdos."  He said that he has been brewing for
30 years, and knew more about brewing than anybody on the network.
Strangely enough, he *asked* me to tell you to not order anything
from him.  He repeatedly stressed that his was "a legitimate business"
not "some guy working out of his bedroom." I would like to point out
that I never said anything to incite this kind of reaction, was very
polite as I asked for reimbursement, and even gave him several chances
to apologize.  He continued to flame about us digest members.
He said that he will make a batch of beer with the yeast I return to
him, he will use $50 (!) worth of malt, he will have Mr. Mossberg review
the beer and post the review to the digest.

I sent back the yeast AND the devices for modifying a keg to draw beer from
the top in stead of the bottom.  Alas, eight years later and I still have
not gotten a credit for the $23.70 desipite several phone calls.

Now, it seems that Wine & brew By you INC. feels that we in the HBD
may know something about brewing.  Well, I do happen to know what
yeast you have there and I'll tell you if you send me a check for $23.70.

Al.
A dissatisfied W&BBY Inc. customer since 1990.

P.S. I still haven't seen a review of the beer by Mr. Mossberg, incidentally.


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:27:39 -0500
From: Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii/FSU at ferris.edu
Subject: Acid Malt

Greetings!  I just stopped by the old homebrew store, only to find that
they now carry "acid malt".  The maltster was Weiss...something.  I'm kind
of intrigued by this malt.  I think a touch of sourness would add some
complexity to many beers.  Has anybody any useful information on the use of
this malt?  Any recipes that require its use?  TIA
Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI




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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:48:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: hop tea haze

Dan writes:
>arrggg....I put a haze in my beer!!!
>
>I just recently bottled an APA and I wanted to add some more hop aroma.  I
>made up my usual water & corn sugar solution for  priming and I boiled this
>for 15 minutes. I then let this cool to about 160 deg. and added 1/2 ounce
>of fresh cascade leaf hops. I let this steep for 20 minutes, strained it
>through a sanitized strainer into my bottle bucket and bottled as usual. 

Hops have a lot of polyphenols.  Despite the small amount used (relative
to the weight of the malt), hops contribute about 1/3 of the polyphenols
(tannins) in the beer.  When you boil hops in wort, you are boiling them
in a liquid that's 5.5 pH or less.  When you boil or steep them in plain
water, you could have a pH of 7.0 or higher!  My water is around 8.5
out of the faucet.

I suspect that you added a lot of polyphenols with the hop tea and these
complexed with proteins to give you chill haze.  You can remove some
of this haze with Polyclar (PVPP), but be warned that this will reduce
the bitterness a little (5 or 10%).

You also probably added some oxygen via the straining which is part of
the polyphenol-protein chillhase problem...  I've read where only oxidized
polyphenols will contribute to haze.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:56:51 -0800
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: distilled water yeats storage 


David Hill asked:
> What are the advantages of yeast storage under distilled water
> compared with just holding a bottle of beer in the fridge?

First, it isn't distilled water storage, it's *sterile* water storage.
Big difference.  The water (and test tubes, petri dishes, whatever) is
usually sterilized by holding it at 240F for 15 minutes in a pressure
cooker or some other autoclave-type device.

I'm not sure whether you mean storing a large volume of harvested
yeast from a primary under water, or you're talking about storing
small numbers of cells for long-term storage.  I'll assume the latter.

I've been using this method for a couple of years, and I maintain over
a dozen different strains (and growing).  I've had no problems
re-culturing after over a year of storage.

The idea with sterile water storage is to get the yeast to go dormant
by removing all sources of food for them.  What dormant actually means
to a yeast cell I don't know, but I assume their reproductive/survival
mechanism basically slows down to a crawl.  If yeast are left under
beer, then they will not go dormant since there will still be
nutrients around that they can process, including other yeast cells
that have bit the dust.  I've never used the method myself, but others
here and in books (sic) have mentioned being able to store yeast under
beer on the order of a few weeks without problems.  I've stored large
volumes of yeast harvested from a primary under water for a few weeks,
but longer than that and all I have is a jar of (effectively) dead
yeast.

SM


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:41:43 -0000
From: "Jim & Shelly Wagner" <wagner at toad.net>
Subject: Re: offensive behavior

I just finished reading Ken Jucks appology re: the 1998 BHC.........I won a
1ST in the Spice/Herb/Vegetable catagory, was posted as "Jim Wagner and
another Wagner", yet I was the only brewer. MY GOD!!! I'M OFFENDED!!! I'M
THE GREATEST BREWER ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH...HOW DARE YOU......give me a
break, when I saw that "satan" was the cobrewer, I could not stop laughing(
for those who do not know, references to the devil are often a trademark of
high gravity Belgian-styled beers) Don't get me wrong, I take my brewing
VERY seriously, but to take offense to something like that is beyond
me...it has nothing to do with religion, so don't even go there...sexual
harassment?...nah...racists?..I don't think so...like Tom Ayres
said...LIGHTEN UP!!! I consider us all friends here...let's keep it that
way. Oh...by the way...Ken, I feel you would be doing your club and
yourself a disservice by removing yourself from "the scene". I enter a LOT
of competitions and feel you did an excellent job  as the organizer...I
know it's a hell(sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone) of a lot of work that
goes on behind the scenes...again, good job! 

			Jim Wagner(and NOT another Wagner)
			Chesapeake Real Ale Brewers Society(CRABS)
			Pasadena, Maryland


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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 14:17:44 -0600
From: Heflin <bodie at shreve.net>
Subject: Garbage bag fermenting and mudbugs

Hi all,
    I have several 15 gallon plastic barrels that I got from St. Pats 
that were used for shipping extract. They make good primary fermenters 
but are a real pain in the butt to clean. Even if you think they're clean 
you really can't see into them good enough to be sure. I heard somewhere 
that you can use a big plastic garbage bag to line the fermenter. Is this 
true? It would make life much easier to sanitize a bag and insert it 
through the bung hole, rack into it, and hold it all in place with the 
airlock. Any specific type of bag needed or will it produce off flavors. 
    To Kathy coming down I-65, I'm sure by the time you hit southern 
Alabama you'll be able to find some Mudbugs. They're in prime season 
right now. they will be around most of the summer but tend to be much 
bigger in the spring. Get em spicy hot and find someone serving crawfish 
ettouffe (sp.) Yum, yum! 
    Bodie


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