---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Local Homebrew Stores (Headduck)
  RE:Wine & Brew By You ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  competitions (Robert Arguello)
  respiration (Al Korzonas)
  B-Brite (and One-Step for that matter) (Al Korzonas)
  storing yeast under beer ("Taber, Bruce")
  Protein rests (Al Korzonas)
  Racking Tube and Plastic Hose Water Spots (MIchael Cukrow)
  Frozen keg turns foamy! (Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii/FSU)
  High Iron/Manganese Well (AJ)
  Wine & Brew comment ("Robert A. Black")
  Storing Yeast Starters ("Raymond C. Steinhart")
  Souring Stouts (Jason Henning)
  No Hands HLT and Parallel Serial Brewing (Jason Henning)
  Sugar ("David R. Burley")
  Corny Kegs (Bill_Rehm)
  .08 and beyond (haafbrau1)
  .08 is not the end ("Spies, James")
  Kegging and Temperature Fluctuations (sbgr)
  Re: displaying my ignorance (part II) (Marylou Anderson)
  "I don't care so don't post it, waaah"; legislators; erroneous credit (Samuel Mize)
  sources for rice hulls (Duarte George M NUWCDIVNPT)
  RE: Still more .08 (Cory Wright)
  Neo-Prohibition (Malty Dog)
  Homebrew class (michael rose)
  DMS (Al Korzonas)




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:03:59 EST
From: Headduck <Headduck at aol.com>
Subject: Local Homebrew Stores

Simon Wesley writes:

"I heard ecohes of many experiences I've had with homebrew stores 
In reading Al K's post about Wine & brew By you INC.  I would like to buy 
locally but I often wind up walking out of the store annoyed by the 
behavior of the employees.  Being treated like a cheapskate because I 
refuse to pay $50 for a 25 kilo sack of M&F pale annoys me.  Getting 
unsolicited lectures on brewing techinques from extract brewers with two 
years of experience rubs me the wrong way.  I'm about ready to give up on 
these people and switch to mail order.  Does anyone have a polite but 
effective way of dealing with these kind of people?"

How about trying to get to know them.  These people are doing a great service
to the community by having a homebrew store.   I am willing to pay a bit more
for the privilege of having a store that I can count on being there when I
need last minute supplies.  On the other hand, I agree that if the owners or
employees are arrogant or pushy it is difficult to want to spend any money in
their store.  Find out if you are talking to an employee or the owner.  If it
is an employee, talk to the owner about it, they need to know that their
employees are chasing away customers.  

Buying locally is important!!!  If we all start buying everything from mail
order or large discount chains we will end up with sterile communities with no
life uptown and nothing but Walmarts, Kmarts and fast food joints on the
edges.  The money that you spend in these places takes the first train out of
town into the deep pockets of someone somewhere else, leaving nothing but
minimum wage jobs, cheap products and lousy food!!!  

Sorry about the non-brewing bandwidth, but this is important.  America is
becoming a giant homogenous mass.  In ten years either everybody or nobody
will know what a spicy mudbug is.  And then what would we talk about!!!

Hoppy Brewin'

Joe Yoder
Lawrence, Kansas
Check out the Lawrence Brewer's Guild Website:
http://www.cjnetworks.com/%7Ekpb3


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:07:44 -0500
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: RE:Wine & Brew By You

Hello All,

There have been a few posts in recent HBD's regarding a homebrew supply
store in Miami, FL called Wine & Brew By You. These posts have included
some pretty derogatory statements referring to past experiences some of
you have had with dealings (mail orders etc.) with them. Al Korzonas
started it, I believe, with a reply to someone and he wrote:

>Now, it seems that Wine & brew By you INC. feels that we in the HBD
>may know something about brewing.  Well, I do happen to know what
>yeast you have there and I'll tell you if you send me a check for >$23.70.
>Al.
>A dissatisfied W&BBY Inc. customer since 1990.
>P.S. I still haven't seen a review of the beer by Mr. Mossberg, >incidentally.

Well, in defense of this store, please read on---------

This, and the other occurances were more than likely with the previous
owner/operators of the store. The man you were dealing with name is (or
more appropriately, was) Craig Mctyre. He passed away some time ago.
It's easy to bash the guy now, but I too agree that he was somewhat
difficult to deal with. He was quite eccentric or more blatantly, weird.
The guy was kinda like a drunken Howard Hughes. The store was in a total
shambles, old & outdated products lined the grubby shelves, and the
advice you got most of the time was "Just add a few more pounds of corn
sugar and it'll turn out alright". That is all in the past. I am sure
that Al is p.o'd about his money, and the downright insulting of his
knowledge of brewing. I don't know you personally Al, but I am sure that
you have blown this thing off altogether. However, I must pronounce that
now, the store is being operated by a young guy named Lewis Good, who
was working there when Craig was alive. Lewis took the bull by the
horns, cleaned the store up, and really turned the place into a fine
homebrew supply outlet. Lewis is a very knowledgable brewer and a damn
good friend of mine. I cannot vouch for his mail order service as I go
to the store directly. That, in and of itself says something because I
live about 60 miles from his store in The Keys and it's not just a drive
around the corner. Lewis is an active member of our local homebrew club,
The Miami Area Society of Homebrewers (M.A.S.H), and had donated his
time, supplies, expertise, and beer judging skills on countless
occasions. He has given me, (yes, given) alot of products to test out
and been awfully kind in other ways too. He has kept the store open late
just for me to come by and pick up a few odds and ends.Seems to me that
this whole mess came about because the man asked about a yeast that he
acquired from a bottle of Rogue beer (which, by the way, he shared a
slant of with me) and inquired to the HBD in a post. He was merely a
victim of mistaken identity and in no way should be associated with the
sordid past of his deceased former boss.
Nuff said.

I raise my stein to you, Lewis!!

Signed,

Captain Marc Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
Future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"



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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:08:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: competitions

Simon Wesley recently wrote, expressing his hope that beer judges and
competitions have immproved over the years........

>The recent Satan thread brought back some traumatic memories of a 
>Home Brew contest I entered and served as a steward at back in the mid 
>80's.  The whole experience put me off contests for life.  The judges 
>to whom I was serving the beers were often arrogant and ignornant. and 
>they semed more focused on showing off their "knowledge" and slamming the 
>lower quality beers than providing people with good quality feedback on 
>how to improve their brewing.  I hope that this sort of thing does not go 
>on any more.....

Simon, I can't speak to what was happening in competitions back in the 80's,
and can't even speak globally about the present state of affairs....but your
post moves me to relate a recent experience.

I had the pleasure of serving as a steward and as a judge for the recent
competition organized by the "Bay Area Mashers" of California fame. This
competition is called the "World Cup of Beers" and is a qualifying event for
MCAD. I am pleased to inform you that the organizers of this competition
went to great lengths to insure that all entrants in the contest receive
fair, even handed assessment of the beers submitted.  We were instructed to
spend extra time commenting on the beers that did less well so that the
brewers could improve their results. The spirit of this club's competition,
(and also of the BJCP), is that the judge should comment on the good points
of a low scoring beer..not just the faults. I was able to read many of the
score sheets and was impressed that all of the judges took the instructions
to heart, as did I, and I found that virtually every score/comment sheet was
filled, (often even on the back), with excellent, thoughtful and detailed
feed-back. The judging spanned 3 days, day 1 and 2 were the "prelims" and
the entrys were culled from nearly 300 to about half that number. Day 3 was
the "finals" and each flight was judged by a panel of 3 judges. Brewers who
entered beers in this event can expect to receive comment sheets from as
many as 5 judges. You may also be unaware that the BJCP has recently
installed a system whereby a brewer can "challenge" any judge(s) that he or
she feels was unfair.
Robert Arguello

		"All in a Days Wort"

http://www.calweb.com/~robertac 
robertac at calweb.com
(916) 756-4956



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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:12:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: respiration

Peter writes about a University of Michigan experiment on bakers' yeast.

This brought out a number of questions in my head...
Was the yeast truly "respiring" (i.e. using the oxygen for metabolism
of sugars) or were the yeast simply absorbing oxygen for sterol synthesis?
Also, how could they tell the difference... unless perhaps they were measuring
CO2 evolution which would be different for respiration than it would be
for anaerobic fermentation?  Finally, Saccharomyces display what is known
as the Crabtree effect, by which respiration is suppressed by glucose
(and other sugars but to a lesser extent).  I don't know if bakers'
yeast is Saccharomyces, but if not, then all bets may be off.  This may
all be moot if indeed they were misusing the term "respiration" to simply
mean "any and all use of oxygen" which it is *not*.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:37:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: B-Brite (and One-Step for that matter)

Tom writes:
>B-Brite is NOT a sanitizer, it is a mighty effective cleaner, but has no
>or very little sanitizing capability.  If you don't believe me, read the
>label and look for the word "sanitizer", you won't find it.<snip>

B-Brite is not labeled as a sanitiser (nor is One-Step) because there
are specific governmental hoops that one must jump through to be authorised
to label a product as such.  My discussions with Crosby and Baker (the
distributors of B-Brite) and L.D.Carlson (the distributors of One-Step)
indicate that these products do (did?  see below) have sanitising
capabilities, but they had not yet done the paperwork for having the
products labeled as sanitisers.

The reason I say "did?" above is because I have heard (about a year or
two now) that B-Brite changed in colour and some were speculating if
it had not simply been replaced with dishwashing detergent.  When I owned
my HB store, I was only carrying One-Step, so I did not follow up on
this *RUMOUR*.

The sanitation provided by these products would be via sodium percarbonate
which, when mixed with water, is somewhat like sodium carbonate and hydrogen
peroxide.  It's the peroxide that provides the sanitising action.

I brewed a number of batches in which the only sanitiser was One-Step and
had no problems with infection.  I have since changed to using primarily
Iodophor, mostly because once the oxygen bubbles out of these percarbonate-
based sanitisers, you no longer have any sanitising action (and high levels
of organics can really use up that oxygen quickly).  I now use it as a
cleaner (like PBW) and then follow up with either Iodophor or StarSan.
Iodophor is nice because it's sanitising capabilities are active as long
as it has an amber tint.  I haven't read that much about StarSan yet, so I
don't know if it too has this feature.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:29:01 -0500
From: "Taber, Bruce" <Bruce.Taber at nrc.ca>
Subject: storing yeast under beer

On Friday the 27th, Scott Murman commented on yeast storage stating;

>>>>>>
I've never used the method myself, but others here and in books (sic) have
mentioned being able to store yeast under beer on the order of a few weeks
without problems.  I've stored large volumes of yeast harvested from a
primary under water for a few weeks, but longer than that and all I have is
a jar of (effectively) dead yeast.
>>>>>>

For the past few years I have been storing yeast under beer for periods of
up to 9 months without problems.  I have read many opinions that this is
impossible....... go figure.

The reason I began doing it this way is because I have seen, first hand,
people effectively use yeast from commercial brews that have been sitting
under the beer in the bottle for at least a few months.  I have also seen
people leave beer in their secondary for up to 6 months (they kind of forgot
it was there) and still have effective natural carbonation after bottling.
These events illustrate to me that yeast is fairly forgiving as long as it
is kept clean.

My procedure is to buy a pack of expensive liquid yeast, brew a 32 oz.
starter batch, let it fully ferment out, swirl it to suspend the yeast, pour
it into four 8 oz. sterile jars, and store in the fridge to use over the
next few months.  This way all my future starters are from second generation
yeast.

I have found that a higher-than-normal final gravity is an indication that
the yeast is getting too old.  This is my limited observation.  Any expert
opinions on this?

Bruce Taber
in Almonte, Ont. Canada
bruce.taber at nrc.ca



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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:29:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Protein rests

Kyle quotes some mystery beer wizard:
>MBW> With respect to the Siebel expert protein rest at 135 will not do
>much is correct,  proteolysis is most rapid at 50-55C(122-131), 135 is
>too high. <snip>

I believe, as I've said before, the Siebel expert was incorrect as do I
believe that the Mystery Beer Wizard is incorrect on this point.  I have
a lot of evidence in my own personal brewing that a 135 F rest will
significantly reduce break formation with DeWolf-Cosyns Pils and Pale Ale
malts.  I've got at least a dozen batches worth of datapoints that confirm
this action.

As for proteolysis, *peptidase* (as Kyle correctly points out) is active
between 50 and 55C (122 and 131F) and works like beta amylase in that it
munches little bits from the ends of long chains.  *Proteases* on the other
hand, are active between 50 and 60C (122 and 140C) and they work like
alpha amylase, chopping big chains in the middle.   Proteases breaks big
proteins down to medium-sized proteins (statistically speaking) whereas
peptidase snaps amino acids off the ends of big and medium-sized proteins.

>KMD> What about the mantra here on the HBD that resting in the range of
>KMD> 132 F to 140 F will favor degradation of HMWP to MMWP, and minimize
>KMD> degradation of MMWP to LMWP?
> 
>MBW> Remember its the same enzyme so at higher temps its going to be
>less active and produce less of all types of proteins.  132 is at the
>high end and 140 you are starting to activate starch conversion. It
>shouldnt matter anyway.

It is *not* the same enzyme.  In fact, there are many enzymes at work here.
I am not sure if there are several grouped into "peptidases," but I'm
positive that there are a variety of enzymes at work grouped together
as "proteases."

Just like with the diastatic enzymes, the higher the temperature, the
faster the action, BUT the more heat labile (heat sensitive) enzymes
(beta amylase in the case of diastatic and peptidase in the case of 
proteolytic) are denatured (deactivated) quickly at higher temperatures
so *that* is how their action is limited.  It's not that peptidase
does not work at 135F... it's just that it is denatured before it can
accomplish much.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:40:27 -0500
From: MIchael Cukrow <mcukrow at nac.net>
Subject: Racking Tube and Plastic Hose Water Spots

After recently siphoning using my racking cane and tubing, I began to
wonder if anyone had a good way to dry this?  What I usually do is hang
them over a door and let them 'drip dry', but unfortunately I end up
with white spots on the inside.  Is this harmful?  Is there a better way
to dry them so I don't end up with these? 

Thanks for the advice,
Mike Cukrow
Mt Arlington, NJ


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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:01:42 -0500
From: Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii/FSU at ferris.edu
Subject: Frozen keg turns foamy!

Help!  My keg refrigerator is in the garage.  Two Fridays ago (about 10
days) I found two of my kegs were frozen.  I turned off the fridge
(inadvertently) and they thawed.  Now all I can get is foam.  I've
depressurized a couple of times to no avail.  What has caused all of this
foaming (both kegs) since the beer froze?  What can I do about it?
TIA
Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI




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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:32:47 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: High Iron/Manganese Well

Randy Reed asked about his well water. He posted the following values
for water from the well and out of his softener (softener values in
parentheses): Na 10.9 (105); K 1.0 (0.35); Cu 0.02 (ND); Fe 3.29 (0.08);
Mn 1.22 (ND); Mg 5.7 (0.03); Ca 33.9 (0.25), pH 6.5 (6.5); Alk. 42.5
(55); Cl ND (130); NO3 ND (0.30); SO4 14.7 (13.2)

The well water is problematical in that it is very high in both iron and
manganese which will result in stained toilets, sinks, dishwashers,
laundry etc. (hence the softener installation) and metallic tasting
beer. Otherwise the water is quite nice with a respectable calcium
content and modest alkalinity. If not for the iron and manganese this
water would be suitable for the vast majority of brews, even the
demanding Bohemian Pilsner, as the sulfate level is quite low. For many
beers, one would supplement the sulfate for hop character and chloride
for fullness/sweetness. But the iron/manganese must be dealt with. I
would try aeration of the water followed by filtration. I tried this on
a local brewer's water and found that iron at the level of 1 mg/L could
be removed down to the level of detection of the test (a couple of
hundredths of a mg/L) simply by pulling the sample through a 0.5 micron
filter. Note that all this gent's iron was in the +3 state to start with
but I have no idea about Randy's. Aeration changes Fe(II) to Fe(III)
which forms an insoluble hydroxide at higher pH. Aeration also has the
effect of raising the pH by allowing dissolved CO2 to escape.  Similar
things should happen to the manganese (at higher pH Mn(II) forms a
gelatinous pink precipitate which turns black upon oxidation to MnO2)
but I haven't any direct experience with this. Note that it is rare for
Mn to exceed 1 mg/L in natural waters. So try aerating and filtering
through fine sand or tight filter paper. The filter medium should show
orange to brown to black staining. Taste the filtered water and finally
have it analyzed to see if your processing got the Fe and Mn out.
Another approach is to talk to your water treatment supplier about
having an iron removal unit installed. These do nothing more than
oxidize Fe(II) to Fe(III) (usually with aeration but sometimes with
potassium permanganate) and filter through a back washable medium. They
cost about half a grand. I'm not sure how they'd do against this very
high manganese level though so I'd want some assurance from the seller
before having one installed. If the iron removal unit is successful
against the manganese (and it should be as evidenced by the fact that
manganese in a high oxidation state is used in some units and then
presumably successfully removed as the oxide) then its output will be
very nice brewing water. You would not, then, need the softener _for
brewing_. If you want soft water for other reasons, then the softener is
the way to get it. If I had money to burn and wanted soft water for
bathing etc. I'd consider an iron removal unit followed a softener. I'd
tap my brewing (and drinking) water off between the two. Softened water
is good for dishwashers, clothes washers and water heaters but not much
else in my opinion.

The alternative is to brew with the softened water but the disadvantages
of doing that have been published here dozens of times. In this
particular case I suspect a problem with the softener. Chloride, clearly
coming from the backwash brine, should not appear in the output stream
at the level reported. Chloride level should not change by more than a
few mg/L as a consequence of passing through the softener.





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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:51:59 -0500
From: "Robert A. Black" <rblack at aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: Wine & Brew comment

Concerning the opinion of Wine & Brew expressed in response to a simple
question:

I am a customer of Wine & Brew, and I have been purchasing brewing supplies
there since 1992. While I cannot vouch for the mail order service of Wine &
Brew by You, Inc., since I always drop by the store in person, I have had
no difficulties with their services. However, I was in fact about to go to
a mail-order supply house to get a better price, until Mr. Good took over.

Personally, I have always been treated courteously at Wine & Brew, and have
received much good advice, particularly from Mr. Good. For example, when my
bottle capper wore out, Mr. Good exchanged it for a new one without my
asking. Mr. Good has also given me free samples of products to try, as well
as suggestions for improving my brew. The service and supplies offered to
me by Mr. Good have always been fresh and competitevely priced, especially
in the two years since Mr. Good began managing the store.

While the problem described by Mr. Korzonas could well have happened, eight
years have elapsed, and it is ridiculous that this problem has been brought
up in response to Mr. Good's question. It is absolutely unfair to blame Mr.
Good for any shortcomings with the previous management. In my view, it is
up to the customer to seek redress of grievances within a reasonable time.


Robert A. Black
South Miami, Florida




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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:42:21 -0600
From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Storing Yeast Starters

I have read some recent threads on yeast storage, but I have not read a
complete procedure on storage of yeast slurry or starter:  

Question 1) Is it wise to save some of the sediment from the primary or
the secondary.  

Question 2) If from the primary, what about all the proteins, dead
yeast, etc. that will be mixed in with the sediment?

Question 3) My goal is create a starter ahead of time and put it in my
cooler to shorten the lead time.  Many times I don't know if I will be
able to brew until a day or two ahead of time.

I prefer to use liquid yeast and would make a starter from these as
opposed to collecting slurry from previous batches.  If I make a starter
from liquid yeast:

Question 4) What should I store this starter with?  Additional wort,
sterile water, boiled tap water, or nothing except the original contents
of the starter?

Question 5) How long can a starter be stored for?  

I am talking ale yeasts here.

Thanks

Raymond C. Steinhart
Brewers of South Suburbia



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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:38:02 GMT
From: huskers at olywa.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: Souring Stouts

Hello-

After all the talk about brett in Guinness, I'd like to brew a soured
stout. I'm thinking of brewing a 7 gallon batch. I'd brew 4 gallons for
my main batch and 3 gallons to sour. From the 3 sour gallons, I'd freeze
2 one gallon jugs for 2 future batches and use one for this batch.
Should I ferment this 3 gallons as usual then add the brett or add the
brett with the yeast right off? Or not even add yeast?

BTW, I'd want to boil (or at least hold it at 165F for, say, 20 minutes)
the brett portion before adding it to the main beer, right?

Another question, is a gallon of soured beer to much?

Cheers,
Jason Henning <huskers olywa net>
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Lacey, Washington

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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:38:08 GMT
From: huskers at olywa.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: No Hands HLT and Parallel Serial Brewing

Kyle Druey talks about his No Hands Hot Liquor Tank. I'm just about done
with mine. It's been a project in development for a couple months now.

It's a converted Golden Gate keg. I'm using an immersion t-stat
(Grainger 2E939) to drive two solid state relays (Grainger 6C904). The
SSRs each control 1440 watt elements. I'm ordering a thermometer from
Trend Instruments tomorrow.

Why would anyone want such a HLT? I'm trying to get to the point where I
can brew four batches (or more) in a session.  I'm hoping to be able to
do two batches at the same time and then start the next batches as the
equipment is freed up. Parallel serial brewing (at it's best). I've been
doing two batch serial brewing and one of the problems is monitoring the
HLT while keeping up with everything else. How does anyone else do
multiple batches?

Once I get going like I want, I might put a coil in the tank and make a
heat exchanger type RIMS out of it. 

A question to those using water heater elements, how are you insulting
the connections? I've been  just leaving them exposed but there's got to
be an easy way to make this safer. I tried a 4" square box in between
the element and the keg but created leaks.

Cheers,
Jason Henning <huskers olywa net>
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Lacey, Washington 

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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:11:27 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sugar

Brewsters:

Jeff Renner says about putting sugar in bread dough:

"It's just because someone thought you ought to put the
sugar in, and the
error is repeated by most recipe writers"

I doubt it.  Sugar and milk (lactose) are used as crust
colorants in many recipes.  As the sugars caramelize,
they color the crust.  Salt in excess also imparts a reddish
tinge to some doughs. Jeff's earlier comments about a
dough left too long rising having a very light color crust supports
this point, since the sugars have been depleted by fermentation.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:42:21 -0600
From: Bill_Rehm at DeluxeData.com
Subject: Corny Kegs


Greating fellow brewers.  I am thinking about starting to force carbonate
some of my brews and then counter-pressure fill my bottles.  The problem
is, I don't have a spare fridge to chill the kegs.  Can full kegs be left
on their side while chilling, or will this cause problems with the seals. I
think I can make room to roll a keg or 2 onto the bottom shelf of my
kitchen fridge.

TIA
Bill Rehm
Milwaukee, WI




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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:41:29 -0500
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: .08 and beyond

Anybody not from the U.S.,please page down, as this is yet another .08
rant.

No offense intended to the original poster, BUT, the (para)phrase 'Don't
worry, it won't affect most of us' is pretty scary to me.  When political
a$$holes (and you know lots of money and power are at stake here) start
chipping away at our rights and freedoms, they don't stop with just a few
chips.  Eventually, before we know it, Big Brother will dictate
everything we say and do or don't do.  We won't even realize it until
it's too late.  These same people that govern us have chauffeurs and
can't even balance their own checkbooks (and they don't even have to) let
alone the Budget.  I don't advocate drunk driving.  I think the laws
already in force are sufficient and should be enforced, not make new
laws. 
I'm stepping off my soapbox now.  

Relax, Have a Home Brew, But watch your elected officials
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:31:58 -0500
From: "Spies, James" <Jams at mlis.state.md.us>
Subject: .08 is not the end

All -

I will try to keep this short, I promise . . .

I've been lurking on this thread for a bit now, and as I work as a bill
drafting attorney for the Maryland General Assembly (the lawmaking body
of Maryland), I feel that my experiences this legislative session may be
of some value to the collective.  We in MD had a proposed bill to lower
our present DWI BAC from .10 to .08.  It failed big time, but the way in
which it did is where I feel the value for us lies.  Quick primer -- in
MD, to become law, a bill must be assigned to a committee in the house
of origin (Senate or House of Delegates), pass the committee by majority
vote, pass the house of origin by a majority vote, and then go to the
opposite house and repeat the process.  While in each house, it has a
chance to be amended and altered.  If it passes all these hurdles, it is
presented to the Governor to sign or veto.  Touchy-feely do-good bills
like this usually have a boatload of co-sponsors -- legislators who sign
their names onto a bill to lend support to it (and also to look good to
their constituents).  Because of this, legislators might feel pressured
to pass a bill that they signed onto unless they are convinced otherwise
(politics being what it is).  In MD, the citizens came out in droves to
rally against the lowering of the limit.  In order to defeat a bill, we
as citizens MUST show our opposition to give the legislators an escape
route of sorts to vote against a bill that they signed onto because of
political pressure, but don't really morally support.  If we DON'T, we
risk bad law being passed by default.  Many on this forum have advocated
the laissez-faire approach to the process, and that's just fine, but I
feel that if we don't become active in our democracy, it will run amok
because of the CONSTANT activity of the fringe movements that advocate
things like zero tolerance.  Moral:  be an active participant; contact
your legislators.  If not, you run the risk of having democracy dictated
to you.  Or don't do anything.  The choice is yours . . .

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: 31 Mar 98 09:29:00 -0500
From: sbgr at cbmsmail.cb.lucent.com
Subject: Kegging and Temperature Fluctuations

Greetings,

I kegged for the first time about a 1-1/2 months ago (corny kegs), and   
all was going beautifully.  I had an Anchor Steam clone with great taste,   
head & clarity.  I had force carbonated with the keg sitting in 45-55   
degree weather in my garage for about a month. (I was still in the market   
for a chest freezer)

 Life was good...I had a great beer on tap and I even found a good deal   
on a used freezer.  Then last week the weather turned warm in Ohio (upper   
70's /  low 80's), and I had not taken delivery of  my freezer yet.

As a result, the CO2 that had been dissolved in the beer came out and now   
I had warm flat beer, but I can get around that with a 2 liter bottle and   
a homemade Carbonator.  Biggest concern for me is that the formerly clear   
beer in now very cloudy as if the yeast (or god-forbid an infection) has   
gotten very active.  I filled a 2 liter bottle and after a while got a   
fair amount of yeasty looking sediment on the bottom and I could see   
quite a bit of stuff in suspension.  The taste is still OK but it has   
degraded somewhat.

Could this be a late resurgence of the yeast, or do I have my first   
infected beer?   Thanks for any help / suggestions.

Stacy Groene
Columbus, OH  



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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:51:28 -0800
From: Marylou Anderson <maryloua at concentric.net>
Subject: Re: displaying my ignorance (part II)

- -----------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 20:53:53
> From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
This is the first time I have posted on HBD.  I usually do not have
anything to contribute since I've only been brewing for about 8 mos. 
Subject: Displaying my ignorance (part II)
> 
> I have since looked at a Bud Light can which shows 110 calories,
> 6.6 grams carbo, 0.9 gram protein.  (6.6 + 0.9) * 4 = 30 calories
> attributable to the listed components.  The remainder (80 calories)
> must be the alcohol.  Question:  Isn't alcohol a carbohydrate?
> Won't it contribute to weight gain? (SOMETHING is causing my
> beer gut!)  

Alcohol is not considered a carbohydrate.  Alcohol contributes 7
calories per gram, while carbohydrate and protein contribute 4 calories
per gram.

> Some call alcohol 'empty calories'.  I never figured out exactly what
> this means, since it must be real calories if it is digested and
> contributes to weight gain.

 
"empty calories" means a food contributes a signigicant amount of
calories but does not have many nutrients.  For instance potato chips
and soda pop would be considered "empty calorie" foods.  Beer would also
probably fall into this catagory.  Although personally, I would rather
get my calories from a homebrew than potato chips or soda pop!!


Marylou Anderson
Kent, WA


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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:13:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: "I don't care so don't post it, waaah"; legislators; erroneous credit

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> From: Wayne_Kozun at otpp.com
> 
> Will everybody just shut up about the new drunk driving law and get back to
> talking about brewing.  This is not the "Pissed Off About Proposed American
> Legislation Digest" it is the "Homebrewing Digest".

Check the masthead:
>  FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
            ^^^^               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Many of the
> participants here are from the UK, Australia, Canada and elsewhere and we
> just don't give a damn.

To any such who are mentally incompetent to hit "page down," my apologies.

> We Canadians are willing to accept reasonable laws that increase public
> safety.  That is why it is rare to hear about Canadian children shooting
> each other.

If you think it's because of the laws, your opinion of the Canadian people
is much lower than mine.  I agree with you that blanket smears of other
countries are childish and inappropriate.  Even oblique ones.

 - - - - -
> From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
> Subject: Re: Legislating morality...
 ...
>      >Well, they're at it again. Rep. Juanita Millender-McDonald 
>      >(California) 
>      >has sponsored a bill to heavily penalize UPS (or any other carrier) 
 ...
>      For those who are concerned, I looked up Jauniat Millender-McDonald's 
>      email address so YOU can send her email concerning your opposition.  

If you're not in her district, or even her state, you'll have MUCH more
impact if you write or call your OWN legislator.  If you can't vote against
her, why would she care what you think?

 - - - - -
> From: James Tomlinson <red_beards at compuserve.com>
> Subject: 0.08 BAC
> 
> In HBD2673, Samuel Mize wrote about some of my usenet posts and
> reprinted some of it.
> 
> I need to make a couple of minor corrections, I posted it to Alt.beer,
> not alt.politics (For any who care).

It was crossposted to both those groups, and others.

> Also, I reposted the information from compuserve's Bacchus forum.
> Pete Petrakis posted the original message to compuserve which I posted
> in its entirety to alt.beer, with full credit to him.

Sorry, I missed the credit line at the top.  Please forward my
apologies to Mr. Petrakis.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Multi-part MIME message: " ", " ", " " (hands waving)
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:29:30 -0500
From: Duarte George M NUWCDIVNPT <DuarteGM at code83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil>
Subject: sources for rice hulls 

I recently posted regarding sources for rice hulls and heating elements
for RIMS.
I like to thank those who responded and will post the sources for anyone
else who 
may need it.

Williams Brewing 1-800-555-1212 has NATURAL FILTER MEDIUM 
1 lb. Bag M72 $1.65*   -Brian Thumm, Ken Sullivan
St. Patrick's of Texas http://www.stpats.com sells rice hulls      
1 lb-$1.25 , 5 lb-$5.25                 - John Vaughn
Brewers Resource: 805 555-1212 http://www.brewtek.com - - Kyle.M.DRUEY
1 lb-$1.59
Garden Centers has rice hulls as a growing media.              -Corky
Courtright

I currently contacting Garden centers to see if I can get a large
quantity but have not found one that
has rice hulls.  Maybe this is more common in other parts of the
country.  Otherwise I'll go
with one of the above.

Also, since I received no negative feedback on the use of the 3000 W
copper electric element, I am 
planning on using this in my setup.

thanks and good brewing
George Duarte


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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:40:06 -0600
From: Cory Wright <cwright at midcom-inc.com>
Subject: RE: Still more .08

Steve Jackson wrote:

>In most states, you cannot be stopped unless you are showing
>some signs of impairment. This means you have to be weaving, speeding,
>crossing the center line, etc. In other words, you have to be doing
>something wrong in order to get pulled over. 
Right, but you can also be pulled over for something fairly benign, 
regardless of the state of your driving. In many cases, police are 
fishing for bigger problems. Case in point, a friend of mine was pulled 
over for a blown headlight. He'd had 2 beers in 1 1/2 hours and passed 
all the dexterity tests given with flying colors (note that he wasn't 
pulled over for poor driving). Asked to take a breathilizer, he 
complied.  Now if it had only been a problem with his headlight, he 
would have been given a warning to get it fixed and let go. 
Instead, he had his license suspended and was heavily fined. I would 
hardly have considered him a danger, given that he was demonstrating no 
impairment. Yet the law still said he was dangerous and must be 
punished. That's why .08 doesn't fly with me.

>If this move is successful (which it almost certainly will be), I 
really don't see >it affecting many of us one way or another.
As shown above, I do. 

>If you can drive at .08 without any impairment, then you almost 
certainly >don't have anything to worry about. (It varies from state to 
state, but random >checks have frequently been ruled unconstitutional.)
It doesn't have to be random at all- you can be pulled over for 
something very minor. You can also be pulled over by mistake- it 
happens. Hope you don't get pulled over because an officer of the law 
(or the dispatcher) misreads your license plate. Hope you don't happen 
to be driving by a "crime scene" (i.e. some kids' kegger just got 
busted)- you will most likely be stopped. Hope you don't happen to drive 
through an area that has had problems recently- you will get stopped. 
ALL THESE HAVE HAPPENED TO ME PERSONALLY. In all cases, I was doing 
nothing illegal, reckless, or otherwise giving any reason to be stopped. 
In all cases, it was more beause of a "feeling" on the part of the 
officer that I got pulled over. In one case, the officer even admitted I 
was "in the wrong place at the wrong time". Thank goodness that in all 
cases but one, I hadn't had a drop to drink- this is asked as a matter 
of course. And in the one case where I'd had a few, I wasn't driving. It 
concerns me to think that if I'd had a drink, I could have been nailed 
for "drunk driving".

Hey, it's your choice, but unless the law is really hitting the people 
it's targeting, it's unnecessary. 

Cheers,

Cory

P.S. I am in no way impugning the profession of law enforcement, just 
saying that mistakes are made and some individuals can be a bit 
overzealous.


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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:16:46 EST
From: Malty Dog <MaltyDog at aol.com>
Subject: Neo-Prohibition

I don't know why some many homebrewers out there are worried about a
neo-prohibitionist movement. I'm in favor of prohibition myself.

Think about it! If prohibition comes back, all of us will have skills that
will be
worth quite a bit more in the marketplace then they are now!

Cheers!

Bill Coleman
MaltyDog at aol.com


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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:38:30 -0800
From: michael rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Homebrew class

> From: "Jim & Shelly Wagner" <wagner at toad.net>
> Subject: Homebrewers Weekend Course
> 
> Is anyone out there planning on attending the Homebrewers Weekend Course in
> Baltimore? It's put on by  the American Brewers Guild and is set for
> May2-3, 1998. I'm going and was just curious to see if anyone from HBD is
> going. Contact me directly or go to http://www.masterbrewer.com for 


	I just got back from the ABG class held at their brewing school in
Woodland, CA. The class is basically a "beginning all-grain class". If
you currently do full mashes and have read a couple of homebrew books,
then you probably wouldn't benefit much from the class.
- -- 
Michael Rose  Riverside, CA   mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net


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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:07:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: DMS

George writes:
>Jim is confusing DMS with diacetyl.  DMS is produced during the boil, not
> during fermentation.  While some of it might get scrubbed out during
>fermentation by the CO2, it won't get consumed by the yeast.
> 
>DMS is formed by SMM, which is found in high quantities in Pilsner malt. 
> The high kilning temperature of other malts tends to form DMS and drive 
>it
>off, so that there is less chance of ending up with it in the final 
>product.  Excessive DMS in your beer is usually a result of too gentle and/or 
>too short a boil.
>Keeping the lid on the kettle will also increase DMS.  When using pale 
>ale malt, you may be able to get away with a bit more than when using 
>Pilsner malt.
>An inadequate boil with Pilsner malt (or inadequate ventilation during 
>the boil) will lead to high DMS levels.  I don't think you can fix it at 
>this stage, sorry.

I'm not so sure that Jim is confusing DMS with diacetyl.
Some DMS *is* produced during fermentation and some is eliminated during
fermentation too.  More (not a lot) is eliminated during aging.

During the boil, some DMS (that is indeed produced from SMM as George
says) gets oxidized to DMSO.  During fermentation, some of this DMSO
(which does not smell like cooked corn, incidentally) is reduced to
DMS by the yeast.  Higher fermentation temperatures cause less DMSO to be
reduced to DMS than at cooler fermentation temps [MBS p.611].  Furthermore,
more DMS is scrubbed from the fermenting beer at warmer temperatures
than at lower temperatures [Fix, PoBS, p.142-147].

Slow cooling (I feel) is as much of a cause of excessive DMS as a weak
or covered boil.  During the boil, produced DMS gets boiled away, but
when you cover the pot and start slowly cooling it, DMS still continues
to be produced in rather large quantities until roughly about 158F
(according to Fix).

So, to minimize DMS, use higher-kilned malts and boil vigorously at
least partly uncovered (as George pointed out) but also cool fast and
ferment warmer (within reason).

I cannot find the reference now (I believe it is in Brewing Science
edited by Pollock), but I've read where yeast will actually decrease
DMS and increase beer sulphate levels during aging!  So, lagering
will reduce the DMS somewhat, so long as you don't filter or crash cool
(shocking the yeast) your beer.

Finally, DMS is rather noticeable in many of the finest Koelsches.
This comes partly from the fact that Pilsner malt is used, and
partly from the fact that cooler fermentations (than British or Belgian
Ale production) are common.  In my opinion, the best Koelsches do
have a moderate DMS aroma (on the order of a pale German lager).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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