---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Wort aeration (fwd) (Mark Garthwaite)
  Weird haze phenomenon, wots dat taste? (Harold L Bush)
  Burnt Spots and more ("William Warren")
  Lactation & beer (Hefeweizen) ("Bret Morrow")
  mixing the mash ("Bryan L. Gros")
  1007 Temps (John Varady)
  Will this pump work for a RIMS system? (Ed Choromanski)
  Grain Transition Answers ("Rosenzweig,Steve")
  Beer and Mothers/CO2 (MED)" <Thomas.Penn at amermsx.med.ge.com>
  Re: Jethro's Barleywine (Scott Murman)
  Hop bag alternative (David Sherfey)
  The Brewery / Catsmeow ("John")
  Web sites of note (haafbrau1)
  Potato Beer ("Larry O'Mahoney")
  Re: IGLOO v. GOTT (Spencer W Thomas)
  Frustrated Brewer (Tony Barnsley)
  Cold Plates (oberlbk)
  Carms Harshness (Chas Peterson)
  Harshness/RTD (AJ)
  The Brewery ("Lutzen, Karl F.")
  Toohey's Old Recipe (sandahlzoo)
  Help! I've fallen and I can't get up! (Samuel Mize)
  Re: Getting VERY frustrated . . . Please help! (Jeff Renner)
  re: "Frustrated..." (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  CO2 Monitor Source (Sully)
  Drink-driving, Harsh brew, plum delicious ("David R. Burley")
  Well, Pat got stuck in his carboy again. (MacRae Kevin J)




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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:46:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mark Garthwaite <mgarth at primate.wisc.edu>
Subject: Wort aeration (fwd)


	Here's a re-post of a question that had gone unanswered perhaps
cuz it showed up on a Saturday digest.

 -MG
_________________________



	I recall a little while ago someone suggesting the use of a
syringe for blasting air into their stout to create a head similar to that
of Guinness.  That got me thinking....what about using a big syringe for
"injecting" wort to aerate it before pitching?  The only problem I can
think of would be a risk of introducing ambient "nasties" into the wort.
Anyone care to weigh in on this one?

	Also, anyone looking to obtain a nice sized brewing pot might be
well served by checking the papers for going-out-of-business restaurant
auctions.  I picked up an 8 gallon stainless steel pot for $25 at an
auction last week and can't wait to put it to use.  These auctions are
usually during weekdays but I just went over to the auction site, checked
out the kettle, and decided how much I would pay for it.  Then I put in an
absentee bid on it and went back to work.  The auctioneer was authorized
to bid for me up to the amount I was willing to pay.  I wound up getting
it for alot less than I bid too.  I'll bet you could get some other useful
brewing equipment too.

 -Mark Garthwaite
 Madison, WI





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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:56:05 -0400
From: Harold L Bush <harrybush at compuserve.com>
Subject: Weird haze phenomenon, wots dat taste?

I've got a couple of questions for anyone who cares to comment:

1)  I've had a Calif.. Common in my fridge in a corny (naturally
carbonated) for 5 months now.  STILL CLOUDY!!  But the weird thing is 
that
the 2 ft. length of hose between the corny and the picnic tap (also in 
the
fridge) does clear with time.  I know, you'll say it only looks clear
because I'm looking through only 3/8 inch of beer, but not so.  Fill a
glass with beer and the "new" beer now in the hose is cloudy. The overall

keg might be getting clearer, but oh so slowly.  This beer was extract
brewed  ( with steeped crystal malt).  I got  decent cold break with my
immersion chiller,  and I dry hopped for two weeks with pellets in a bag 
in
the secondary.
Does this sound like good old protein haze?  Could the pelleted 
dry-hopping
cause cloudiness in the beer?  Why does the line clear, but not the keg?

2) Could inadequate oxygenation of wort lead to a nasty flavor in your 
beer
that fades with lagering?    All of my beers (including the batch 
mentioned
above) have a distinct harsh taste to them (some more than others) that
fades with time in the fridge.  My beers always seem to improve with lots

of time.  Even after a year in the fridge, they are still improving. I
can't describe the taste, other than by saying it's harsh.  I extract 
brew,
and have done partial batch boils, full batch boils, liquid yeast, dry
yeast, no starter, three stage  (half gallon) starters.  The only
consistent "fault"  I  see in my method is that I  do not aerate my beer
after pitching nearly as much as most preach (and practice).  I  just 
shake
the carboy for a while until it's good and foamy. I generally get active
fermentation within hours and am near final gravity in a few days.  

Believe me, this is not a one batch thing, so I cannot blame it on a
specific set of ingredients or conditions.  I does however, have me
stumped.
Any clues? TIA

harry

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Date: 15 Apr 1998 09:23:29 -0700
From: "William Warren" <wwarren at geron.com>
Subject: Burnt Spots and more

I have a questions for my fellow homebrewers:

(1) I have some burnt spots in my brew kettle and I would like to know; 
how can I remove the burnt matter from my pot?

(2) If I'm doing a three gallon all-grain Hefe-Weizen with six lbs. of 
grain, how much water should I use when mixing the grains. According to 
this article I found, the amount was 1 gallon. Does anybody out there 
know the answer?

(3) I wanted to make a Barley Wine, has anybody made one before and how 
did it taste? I was thinking about going the all-grain route. So if you 
have some some info for me I really could use it.

Cheers!

Will


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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:48:44 PDT
From: "Bret Morrow" <johnson_et_ale at hotmail.com>
Subject: Lactation & beer (Hefeweizen)

Greeting,

Responding to Thor's comments re: "Hefeweizen helps nursing mom express 
milk."  History is full of stories of beer, esp. English stouts (see 
Dave Line for recipes), being used for 'letting down' milk.  The general 
thought in the medical community is that it is due to the 
alcohol-induced relaxation, not anything with regards to the yeast.  In 
point, my Italian wife's family suggests a nice, yeast-free red wine to 
do the job.  One point of concern is that alcohol will pass into the 
breast milk and therefore into the baby.  Having said that, my wife 
(Associate Clinical Professor, Yale School of Nursing; Clincal 
Coordinator of Pharmacy Yale-New Haven Hospital) has had a small glass 
of wine once in a while to help "let down the milk."  So I wouldn't 
worry about doing it once or twice.  Well, I'll drink toast to any woman 
giving birth--its a tough job I couldn't do ;-)

Cheers,

Bret Morrow, R.Ph, Ph.D, Associate Clinical Professor/Associate Research 
Scientist, Yale University School of Medicine; Co-founder Johnson's 
Brewing--Home of the Yale Ale



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:14:56 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: mixing the mash

with the talk a while back about MIXMASHING and what not, I
thought y'all might be interested in this page:

http://aleworks.com/tour.htm

It is from a microbrewery in Napa, CA that has a unique (as far
as I know) mash tun.  They are able to rotate the whole thing like
a cement mixer before and after dough in.  The benefits they claim
sound like marketing BS (more creamy?), but the picture looks neat.
doesn't look too adaptable to homebrewer's though.

BTW, any comments on Napa Ale Works beer?

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:34:03 -0700
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: 1007 Temps

>I just brewed my inaugural batch at my new home on Sunday and pitched 
>a pint of 1007 starter into a medium-to-low gravity wort.  (It's going 
>to end up a Strawberry Wheat).  This is the first time I have used 
>this strain.  Coming home from work Monday afternoon, I found that the 
>krausen had blown the top off my 6.5 gallon plastic primary, and had 
>overflowed the airlock.  I replaced the old cover with a clean cover 
>and clean airlock, and woke up Tuesday morning to find that once again 
>krausen had flowed up through the airlock and out the top all over the 
>lid of the primary.

I just wanted to warn you about fermenting at too high a temp with 1007. I
fermented a batch split into 3 carboys at 55F, 60F & 70F. The 55F batch was
the best for this yeast, the 60F batch was good and the 70F batch was dumped.

I like to use 1056 in the spring/summer and 1007 in the fall/winter for my
ales.

John

PS> Attended my first BJCP study group Tuesday night. Our homework was to
make style guide flash cards. (Thanks David/Chuck).


John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net
   



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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:20:18 +0000
From: Ed Choromanski <choroman at voicenet.com>
Subject: Will this pump work for a RIMS system?

Hi all:

I have a question.  I got luck and got a brand new liquid transfer pump from my
work and was wondering if I can use this for a RIMs system.  

It is a made by Teel and model # 1P799.  I looked it up in the Grainger catalog
and found out that it is a 1/2 Hp chemical-resistant pump.  In the catalog they
have specs regarding Gal per Min  at  Total Head in Feet.  The GPM I understand but
what is meant by Total Head in Feet?  Also for 5 ft and 10 ft total head in feet
it shows 23 and 21 GPM.  This seems like way too much, any way to reduce that?

Thanks in advance,
Ed


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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:45:45 PDT
From: "Rosenzweig,Steve" <Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com>
Subject: Grain Transition Answers

In response to Paul Ward in HBD 2688:

>A couple of questions:

>1)  Just how stupid was it to steep some black patent to acidify my
>    sparge?  Was there enough grain to really make a PH difference?

4 oz BP in 6# total grain bill is a pretty good percentage, you likely 
 affected the color and the PH by a good margin.  I estimate the color 
 addition of the BP to be around 10 deg Lovibond - taking it from about 
 3 to 13, very pale to above amberish.  I'm no expert on PH though (not 
 that I'm an expert on _any_ of this!), so I'll let someone else chime 
 in here . . .

>2)  Why is 170F better for sparging than lower temperatures (say 160F
>    or 150F)?  I understand about higher temperatures & starch.

Hotter sparge water, within limits, will increase the solubility of the 
 sugars in the wort - making it easier to draw them out - too hot 
 though, and you can draw out tannins and such that you do not want.  

>3)  Not that it matters at this stage in my learning curve, but how
>    would I figure extraction rates from the given date (6 lbs. assorted
>    grains yielding 12 quarts at 1.042 S.G.)?

Everything matters at every stage of the learning curve - that's how 
 you keep learning!

5.0# pale ale malt at roughly 35 pts = 175 pts
0.5# crystal at roughly 30 pts = 15 pts 
0.25# BP at roughly 20 pts = 5 pts
total grain bill = 195 pts

you got 3 gallons at 1.042, 3*42 = 126 pts

efficiency is 126/195 = about 65% - not bad
point pounds per gallon of 42*5.75/3 = 22 - again, not bad for a first effort

Note that all the numbers above are rough and depend on the grains you 
 use.  What you want to do is to keep good records of your all grain or 
 partial mash experiences and figure out what kind of efficiencies you 
 can reliably repeat with your system.  I found Ray Daniels Brewing 
 Great Beers book a valuable resource.

Brew on!

Stephen
Brewing in Ontario NY




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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:54:14 -0500
From: "Penn, Thomas J (MED)" <Thomas.Penn at amermsx.med.ge.com>
Subject: Beer and Mothers/CO2

A couple of comments:

Beer and Mothers:  It's accepted lore that beer helps new mothers bring
in their milk.  My wife's midwife said so, and within a couple hours of
having an Anchor Liberty Ale my wife had the milk a-flowin.  I kept
drinking them in hopes of having MY milk come in, but to no avail.

CO2 detectors:  I have seen a bunch of nonsense about CO2 detectors-you
have them in your bodies. As I learned in SCUBA class, the body reacts
to a buildup of CO2 by gasping for breath.  The body does not sense O2
(what it wants), it senses CO2 (which it doesn't want). That's why you
can walk into a room full of N2 and breathe it until you die-your body
doesn't know that it's O2 deprived.

Tom Penn
Oconomowoc, WI

Originator of the "Dow 10,000 Problem" (D10K)


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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:47:45 -0700
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Jethro's Barleywine 


> >  It's no understatement to say that it's the best BW I have had yet.
> >  Quite fitting for the Big Brew event.
> 
> Those were my thoughts exactly when we were deciding what recipe to use for
> Big Brew's inaugural batch.   In addition, a good part of the decision to
> feature Rob's recipe had to do with Rob, himself.
> 
> Brian Rezac

Taking nothing away from Mr. Gump, but I thought we should have made
the Cock Ale recipe for the Big Brewthang.  Let's see someone top a
couple hundred bbl of that.  <sigh> Maybe next year.

SM 
(yeah, there's a reason they didn't ask for my advice)



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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:55:59 -0400
From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Hop bag alternative

Al sez;

**** I *do* recommend the use of hop bags for both pellets and whole
hops
when you don't have a drain on your kettle.  It makes it much easier to
remove the hops prior to running the wort into your fermenter and is
an order of magnitude better than using a sieve to remove the hops
when pouring the cooled (or *GASP!* hot) wort into the fermenter.

Another alternative would be to allow the hops into the fermenter, but
that would increase the risk of a clogged airlock/blowoff and would
complicate the racking of the finished beer.****

Here's another alternative;
For the past twelve years I have successfully racked out of the kettle
(3 to 15 gallon resataurant w/no drain) using a copper tube racking cane
(with an
oversize copper cap soldered onto the end) lodged against the
side/bottom of the kettle.  I whirlpool with the oar/paddle (creating a
cone or mound of trub in the center of the bottom) and allow to settle
for ten or fifteen minutes, and then drop in the racking cane and start
the siphon into the chiller.  When I use leaf hops, I tie a copper
choreboy around the cap using
copper wire. With pellet hops only, no choreboy.  I have also used this
procedure on a converted keg kettle, but with the round bottom, the cane

needs to be tied in place to the handle of the keg so that the cane is
fastened against the side/bottom and not in the center of  the rounded
bottom.

All bets are off if you let the cane move into the trub pile.....

I have used this procedure with beer OG 1.032 to 1.110.  I wind up with
about two quarts or so of glop after racking 10 or 12 gallons of wort
(OG 1.040 to 1.070).  I don't get hops in my fermenter.

To rate the order of effectiveness;
1)whirlpool
2)cane does not move into the pile
3)cap
4)choreboy

Cheers!

David Sherfey
Warwick, NY





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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:04:50 -0700
From: "John" <jbek at mindspring.com>
Subject: The Brewery / Catsmeow

Does anybody know whats going on with "The Brewery" over at
alpha.rollanet.org???
I've trying to connect for a week now and keep get a message:  ... site not
found...

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Was the site moved or something?


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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:45:32 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: Web sites of note

This was sent to me, and since I don't have internet access as of yet, I
thought maybe some of you would be quite interested in some of these
topics.
Brewer Paul

There seems to be a lot going on in the world of beer, this month, so
we thought you would be interested in seeing what's brewing.  
 
Following are the titles of articles with their web site included.
They are also posted on The Gourmet Brewer web site at:
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/news/news.htm 

Budweiser vs. Budvar
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/news/4-8-8LATimesbob.htm

Review of _The Beer Drinker's Bible_
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/news/4-1-8BaltSun.htm

Review of Pale Rider brew
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/news/4-1-8DallasMorningNewsPale.htm

Rogue to offer special bottles for 10th anniversary
http://www.oregonian.com/ent/dining/9804/dn980410dr.html

Latvia is becoming a respected beer produeer
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/news/4-6ReutersLatvia.htm

Supreme Court refuses to hear Florida's argument to block mail-order beer
and wine
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/news/4-7Sun-Sentinel.htm

NY State cuts beer tax
http://www.newsday.com/news/ncovwed.htm#beer

East Coast Beer news and British Cask Conditioned report
http://www.gatewayva.com/rtd/flaircols/beer09.htm

Millrose Brewing company to add a 148 year old barn to its brewery
http://nt.excite.com/news/pr/980414/il-millrose-brewing 

Please let us know if you have any comments.


Dave Bartz (Prez) "Beer is good" - 5000 B.C. 
- --------------------------------------------------------
No affilliation, blah, blah, unless you count being a customer.  I just
felt that some of these topics will pique some bewer's interests.

Paul Haaf  Soon to be CP filling in So. Jersey. 
haafbrau1 at juno.com

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:02:41 -0600
From: "Larry O'Mahoney" <breck at communique.net>
Subject: Potato Beer

I have looked through the Cat's Meow and past HBD posts, but 
have come up with only one recipe for using potatoes as an 
adjunct. Anyone have an all-grain recipe they've actually 
made AND enjoyed using real potatoes (not potato flakes) as 
a starch adjunct? How did you prep them, what would you have 
done differently, 2-row or 6-row malt, preferred hops and 
hopping schedules, etc? I would prefer an ale recipe, but a 
lager will do in a pinch. Private email is fine.

Larry


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:00:10 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: IGLOO v. GOTT 

My Gott (Rubbermaid) cooler is slightly warped.  I've been using it
for about 5 years now.

=Spencer


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:13:28 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <Tony.Barnsley at riva-group.com>
Subject: Frustrated Brewer

Carm Salvatore Has been having problems with all grain brewing. (HBD
#2689)

Here are my thoughts

1) Nothing wrong with the recipe, pretty much a best bitter / ESB

2) Mineral content of water, Nothing really glaring here. I travel 75
miles to collect water like this (from a private well), and have no
problems with undue harshness.

3) Initial pH of 9.2/9.6 - Wow seems a bit high for the mineral content,
but with a mash pH of 5.2 there is nothing to be concerned about.

4) NO break during the boil! I think this is the source of the
harshness. What we need to do is to identify why this is happening.
(obviously). How long are you boiling for? (90 mins normally secures me
a good hot break). Have you tried using Irish moss Rehydrated and added
halfway during the boil? Something is preventing the precipitation of
the break proteins, Irish moss may help to overcome this.

If you think it is the water contributing this harshness, why not brew a
batch using distilled water adding 2 tsp. of Gypsum, and 1 tsp. of Epsom
Salts.

You may want to consider dropping the Chinook and replacing it with say
2oz of Goldings or Fuggles, If you are boiling for a short period of
time you may still have residual taste compounds from the chinook which
does lend a harshness. The lower alpha acid hops have a much better
flavour profile.

Don't despair and give up somebody will come up with the answer.

Wassail Tony Barnsley (Blackpool, Lancashire, UK )



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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:07:35 -0400
From: oberlbk at NU.COM
Subject: Cold Plates


The recent posts about the reaction between aluminum and other metals has
me wondering.....  I bought a two line cold plate in February.  The cold
plate consists of stainless steel tubes encased in an aluminum block.  I
hooked up the first line and everything was great.  About 3 days later, all
of the beer coming out of the tap had a terrible metallic flavor.  I
bypassed the cold plate and proved that it was the cold plate causing this
problem.

I called the company I bought it from, and after 2 hours of fighting with
them on the phone, they agreed to exchange the cold plate for a new one.

Last night I finally hooked up the new cold plate.  Line 1 had a heavily
hopped amber ale.  Line 2 had a wheat ale.  Within minutes, the wheat ale
took on a metallic taste coming out of the tap.  The amber does not have
this flavor, but I really cannot taste much other than hops.  Once again,
bypassing the cold plate the problem goes away on the wheat line.

I am assuming that my problems stem from the construction of the cold plate
using aluminum and stainless steel.  The thing I don't understand is that I
have seen tons of these things in action before and have never tasted this
off flavor.  I thought maybe I didn't have the little barb connections in
far enough, but they are as tight as aluminum threads will tolerate.

Does anyone out there use a cold plate that knows how to get around these
flavors??????  After the battle to send the old one back, I can't imagine
trying to send a second one back, especially since I lost the receipt.

Private email is fine.
Brent Oberlin
oberlbk at nu.com




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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:21:18 -0400
From: Chas Peterson <chasp at digex.net>
Subject: Carms Harshness

HBDers -

Carm writes with a vexing problem on harshness in beers brewed with spring
water.  I too ran into similar trouble a few years ago and have recently
been disappointed with a Festbier showing a similar harsh character.  Gotta
be vigilant on this stuff, eh?  Here's some suggestions, which I'm sure
many others will repeat:

 - reduce your PH even further.  I like to keep mine at about 5.0 measured
while hot.  Especially check the sparge runnings as you get close to
cutting it off.
 - make sure your PH measurements are accurate.  DO NOT use those cheapie PH
strips.  Get the expensive ones ($15 per 100 at Brewer's Resource).  The
biege ones you used in High School simply aren't good enough.  I
benchmarked mine cheapie strips and they were a full point off -- a huge
difference in a logrithmic measurement!
 - Cut that sparge off early.  Its tempting to run the sparge down as low as
recommended (1.012 adjusted for temp, I recall) to eak out every last bit
of sugar, but I try to cut off a little earlier than that -- anything lower
that 1.010 unadjusted is fair game in my book.  If you're worried about
undershooting your OG, throw in an extra 1/2# of malt and go with it baby.
 - Fortify your spring water with 1/2 distilled.  An expensive option to be
sure, but this is the only one that smooths out my beers.
 - Don't boil your main bittering addition longer than 60 minues (a Noonan
recommendation).  I ususally FWH, so a little hop addition early helps keep
the boil over danger down, then add the main addition with 50 minutes to go.
 - Treat you water with CaCl instead of gypsum (a Daniels recommendation).
A little Cl is supposed to smooth out hop bitterness, and reducing SO will
also reduce harshness. 
 - Just cut back on your bittering.  I've found that somewhere in my
configuration, scales, and process that my beers turn out best when I aim
for the lower end of the IBU range.  

Aside from locating CaCl (I found it in the wine section of my homebrew
shop) and shelling out dough for distilled water, all these things can be
done without changing your current system much.  

Hope this helps,

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md
- ------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:37:10 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Harshness/RTD

Carm Salvatore asks about harshness in his all grain efforts and cites
water as his main suspect. His water is actually very soft (Ca   6.4
MG/L, Mg  0.73   MG/L,  Na  4.2  MG/L),  and has a low alkalinity of 25
mg/L. Yet he reports "a very significant amount of residue when I
accidentally boiled a quart dry..." This is not consistent with the
reported water mineral content. The amount of residue left after boiling
should be quite small. He also reports using a carbon filter. Note that
a carbon filter is beneficial for its ability to remove chlorine,
chloramines and other odor producting organics but that it has no effect
on dissolved mineral content. He reports 9.5 mg/L for sulfate. Assuming
this to be correct (and we are suspicious because of the comment about
heavy deposits) hops would not be the source of the harshness nor,
indeed, do the hopping levels reported lead to bitterness considered
harsh by most drinkers when the sulfate levels are much higher.

Other sources of harshness that come to mind are phenolic or fusel
harshness which focuses our attention on fermentation temperature, yeast
strain choice and possible contamination by wild yeast or bacteria. The
original post says nothing about these.

Perception of harshness is, of course, somewhat subjective. I don't like
most microbrewed Pils because I find the bittering hops used (Nugget,
for example) harsh. I prefer to use Saaz exclusively in my own shots at
this style. Obviously this is a peculiarity of my palate as some of
these beers are deemed quite good by other drinkers. Carm's comments
about his wheat, hopped at quite low levels and with noble or near noble
varieties, suggest that perhaps he shares this trait. I would suggest,
therefore, that Carm run some of these beers through other experienced
home brewers and solicit their opinions. Another option is to enter them
in a contest but the problem there is that you can't discuss process
with the judges.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Ian Smith had a problem with an RTD in a 4-20 loop hookup to a PC. My
first question is "Why bother with the 4-20 converter?" Unless you are
running from one end of an electrically noisy brewery to another you
should be able to hook the RTD directly to the PC card assuming that it
has the required bridge circuitry for 3 wire RTD connection and many,
many of the cards that are sold do because temperature monitoring with
RTDs is probably the most common function which these boards perform. If
the card is not configured for RTD input I'd swap it for one which is
and save the trouble of trying to build a converter which would only
lead to the kind of problems already being encountered.

I suppose one could glypt the pots to render them imobile, install the
current to voltage converting resistor across a volts-only input and
then develop a calibration table to convert voltage readings to
temperature.



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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:31:41 -0500
From: "Lutzen, Karl F." <kfl at umr.edu>
Subject: The Brewery

> From: "John" <jbek at mindspring.com>

> Does anybody know whats going on with "The Brewery" over at
> alpha.rollanet.org???
> I've trying to connect for a week now and keep get a message:  ...
site not
> found...

That's because the site moved almost 1 year ago.  We had automated links
on a virtual server redirecting the traffic to The Brewery, but that
has been turned off recently.  We have our own domain name now, so
if we ever have to move again, your traffic will automatically come
along.  However, we have made The Brewery as part of the hbd.org 
file server as the two entities feed one another nicely, so the 
odds of The Brewery ever moving again are nil. (The Brewery
grew up out of The Cat's Meow, which grew up out of the HBD...)

The URL for all future access is:

	http://brewery.org

Use it in good health!


=====================================================================
Karl F. Lutzen                   | Computing and Information Services 
Scientific Programmer Analyst II | University of Missouri - Rolla
E-Mail: kfl at umr.edu              | 114 Math-Computer Science Bldg. 
Fax: (573) 341-4216              | 1870 Miner Circle 
Voice: (573) 341-4841            | Rolla, MO 65409-0360
=====================================================================


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:53:23 -0400
From: sandahlzoo at juno.com
Subject: Toohey's Old Recipe

I'm wondering if anyone has a recipe for Toohey's Old.  It's an
Australian dark ale which my wife said was one of her favorite beers she
had while in college down under.  If anyone has any info on this it would
be appreciated.  

Also, I am planning to brew a partial mash Strawberry Oatmeal Stout soon
(as soon as our local strawberry farm is open), and I am wondering about
adding the fruit.  What is the best time to get the best flavor and
aroma?  I've heard of freezing the fruit, then taking it out and nuking
it before adding to the secondary/primary.  How long do you microwave it
for?  Do I want to heat it before racking the beer on to it, and if so do
I let it cool before racking?  Again thanks for any info.  You can
respond by private E-mail to Sandahlzoo at juno.com.

"Give a man a beer and he'll waste a day, teach a man to fish and he'll
want more beer."

"Engineers don't make the world go around, but they can probably
determine it's moment of inertia."

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:55:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!

Some Guy wrote:

> I popped my stopper into the carboy after
> siphoning via CO2 pressure. Well, you guessed it! Without thinking, I dove
> in after it.  And, damn it, I forgot to purge the carboy with air first.
>... if I press my mouth against the mouth of the carboy, I
> can get fresh air nonetheless. ... 
> soap up the mouth of the bottle.  It'll help me pop out when I'm done.
> This has, after all , happened before.

Another argument in the ongoing glass-vs-plastic debate: plastic buckets
are MUCH easier to climb out of.  :-)

Sam Mize


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:39:43 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Getting VERY frustrated . . . Please help!

Carm <salvator at future.dreamscape.com> has a problem with harshness except
in his lower hopped wheat beers.

I'll leave the water chemistry to someone else who may know more about it,
except to say that in general, mash water ought to be >50ppm Ca++.  Your
water is as soft as Pilsner water.  I'd be inclined to add CaSO4 or CaCl2
depending on style, just to get the Ca++ up.  Having said that, you
obviously haven't had too high pH as a result, judging by your mash pH.
It's low, if anything, and the lack of break confirms this.  I doubt that
you'd need the lactic acid, but I doubt it hurt anything.  But you may be
oversparging.

But here is a big clue:

>  1 oz Chinook (12.5%) 60 min

assuming 23% utilization, = 69 IBU

>  1/4 oz Tettenang 20min

assuming 5% alpha acid and 13% utilization, = 5 IBU

>  1/4 oz Fuggles 10 min

assuming 5% aa, 9% utilization = 2 IBU

>  1/2 oz Cascade knock out

So ignoring any contribution from the Cascades at knockout, you have 76 IBU
bitterness!  No wonder it's harsh!  And I was using utilization figures for
whole hops; if you are using pellets, the Chinook utilization would be 28%
and would would contribute 81 IBU, and the total would be around 89 IBU.
I'm using hops utilization figures from the Hop-Go-Round, a circular
sliderule.  They are the same as in the Zymurgy wall chart and other
sources.  Tinseth's online hops calculator
http://realbeer.com/hops/IBU.html gives 65 IBU for the Chinook.  My
experience is that this is about right for whole hops and low for pellets.

So my strong suggestion to you is to cut the hops way down.  Any hops would
be very bitter at this level, and Chinook can be harsh at those levels.  If
you use one ounce, I'd say it would be plenty.  It would still be a very
bitter beer.

My other advice is to join a local club and compare beers and notes.  Don't
give up or lose heart.  It isn't tocket science.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:33:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: re: "Frustrated..."

In response to Carm Salvatore's problem with harshness in all grain
batches:

What you're describing may be what several sources term "husk
astringency." If so, you're problem may lie in you're mashing/sparging
procedures. Unfortunately, brewing is obviously a fairly complicated
process, that is, there are a decent number of variables involved all
of which can potentially lead to "off flavors." So, how to solve your
harshness problem, hmmmmm...

Well, first I'd suggest finding someone * knowledgeable and experienced * 
and get them to sample your beers, see if they can suggest likely causes.
Unfortunately, you may not have access to such an expert or you may run
into what we did at one point where we tried having our local brew club
members identify a troublesome off-flavor, the range of suggested causes
ran the gamut from reasonable to ridiculous. 

So, if you are totally frustrated and fed up with making beer after beer
that sucks I'm afraid you're going to have to be systematic and try to
identify the cause(s) yourself. You should try limiting as many variables
as possible. Experiment. KEEP IT SIMPLE! For instance, there are loads of
variables that go hand-in-hand with all grain brewing, ELIMINATE THEM.
Start with a SIMPLE * extract* recipe, something like a simple pale. Brew
this and see how it comes out. If you lose the harshness then you've
likely narrowed the problem down to your mashing/sparging processes, it
can't be simply the water or yeast or bacterial contamination from some
scratches in your bottling bucket, etc... Then, you can start adding
things back into the recipe, one at a time, for instance, swap in a
partial mash or whole mash but don't sparge - does the harshness reappear?  
Add in sparging, extra hop additions, etc... 

This will all take some time and you'll be brewing some pretty simple
boring beers in the beginning but believe me it'll be worth it in the end.
Besides, the time involved for these few batches (which you could scale
down in volume if you want to) pale in significance to your two years of
bad brewing experiences. 

DON'T GIVE UP! GOOD LUCK.



- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:49:00 -0700
From: Sully <sully at drunkenbastards.org>
Subject: CO2 Monitor Source

This just fell out of my head.  

One of the questions originally asked in this thread had to do with CO2
monitoring devices to assist in assuring that no harm would come to
Canaries in the course of making this beer.  Brought to you by the ASPCA
Brewing Co.

Check out  http://www.greenair.com/cdmc.htm

They have a CO2 Monitor/Controller and a CO2 Digital Sequencer.  The
monitor reads from 0-2000 ppm (which is what, .2%?), and provides input
to the controller.  The controller can be used to operate exhaust
systems for venting excess CO2 accumulation in a number of applications,
although the basement brewery is not specifically listed. <Insert
standard disclaimer of warranty for particular purpose here.>  It does
talk about hospitals, classrooms, offices, auditoriums, laboratories and
mushroom culture facilities though, and in a sense the brewery is all of
these, no?

The equipment would be invaluable if the brewer had a lapse of
consciousness following a rigorous sampling session, for example, and
during the lapse, an earthquake struck, causing all of the CO2 tanks to
fall and shear the valves.  I'm thinking about a 50 lb., two 20s and a
5.  Now the basement has 6 or 8 inch reinforced concrete walls and floor
with dirt on the other side, so there's only a one in six chance for the
tank to escape the enclosure.  Chances are good that the tanks are
staying in the brewery and there's your recipe for disaster, the first
documented homebrewing fatality, and the attorneys will be knocking on
the widow's door.  I think the wife will let you buy the stuff now.

Cheers!

 -Sully


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:20:46 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Drink-driving, Harsh brew, plum delicious

Brewsters:

Following my comments is the latest on what is happening
in Britain on (as they call it) drink-driving.  Some interesting
statistics. on the percentage of accidents caused by alcohol
influenced drivers.  I wonder what the numbers are here in the
 US?  This outline and website may be useful in constructing
a case in the US.

I  also think that while MADD is, perhaps, made up of a lot of
mothers whose children have killed themselves or been
killed by drivers under the influence and we understand
their source of anguish, do not let this distract you from the
real source of influence in changing these laws
 - the insurance companies. ( Remember the 55 mph
speed limit?).  MADD is, perhaps unknowingly, a front for
this movement.  Insurance companies have very powerful
lobbies worldwide whose job is to constantly reduce their
risk exposure. It is no coincidence that this same movement
is going on in Britain and here. Ask yourself why it is not
DADD (Dads Against Drunk Driving) or PADD (Parents against
Drunk Driving).  Just doesn't have the gut wrenching
emotional impact does it? MADD is well thought out.

German brewers are now under pressure to limit their
advertising to reduce drinking, supposedly.  Sound familiar
to Joe Camel fans?

I have to agree that those who exceed this blood alcohol
limit by several times are the ones who likely cause most
of the accidents, but where do you draw the line? Being
against this lowering of the alcohol blood level is like being
against - well - Motherhood.

OTOH I still think too many people are killed because they
went out to have a good time and died.  I believe it should
be the legal obligation of a bar to have available and the
legal support to enforce it,  a taxi in the city or a set of
drivers on call in the country to ferry people home, at the
drinker's expense, who aren't responsible enough in their
drinking to care about killing themselves or you or me.
This enforced "designated driver" law would be a boon to
all sides in this argument. There are practical aspects to this,
but a cash register could be designed to keep track of the
time and the number of drinks a patron had consumed.
This could be  be used as a signal to the bar to warn when
the patron had exceeded his time/drink limit and this would
prevent him being given another drink. Problems? - of course
 - but better than what we have now in which a bar has no
recourse to the legal responsibility if it serves a patron a
drink and he goes out and kills himself or worse - your kid.

Here is an extract from Breworld:

* Drink Driving
The brewing industry's campaigning to head off the proposed reduction in
the blood alcohol limit is gathering momentum. 


A report the BLRA has published Think Before You Cut the Limit points out

that: 


*The number of alcohol-related road deaths has fallen from 1,650 in 1979 
to
around 500 

*Drink-related deaths are one-seventh of the total road fatalities in the

UK 

* The vast majority of drink/drive deaths involve people not just above 
the
present limit, but double or treble it. 

*Speeding kills many more road users than drink, yet penalties are much
less severe 

*The additional risk of a driver at 50mg being involved in an accident is

very small - the equivalent risk of driving at 43mph in a 40 mph limit 

*Since the breathalyser was introduced in 1967, car ownership has more 
than
doubled but drink/drive deaths have fallen by 61%. 

The BLRA goes on to point out that, "cutting the limit is simply not
addressing the problem of the hard core of drink drivers. They will not 
be
deterred by a lower limit, only by tougher penalties and better 
enforcement
of the present law. 


"There is no reliable evidence to say that a lower BAC limit would 
actually
save lives. What it certainly would do is criminalise a large number of
sensible, careful motorists."

The BLRA have put the essence of their case on the internet.

http://www.blra.co.uk/newpages/drinkweb/ddhome.html
http://195.188.10.40/drink-drive/
- ----------------------------------------
Carm Salvatore complains about harshness in his beer
except for the two batches of wheat beer he has brewed.
With your water pH in the 9's you likely are extracting phenols
from the barley husks.  Wheat having no husks doesn't have
this problem, so that's why the wheat batches were OK.
You can easily isolate the problem by using distilled water
in your brewing of one batch of malted barley and see if this
problem goes away.  Also reduce all sparge water to a pH
of less than 6 to reduce the extraction of phenols/tannins
from the husk.

I'm no expert, but the pHs of 9.2 to 9.6 and the source of water
as a spring coupled with the apparently low levels of calcium
leads me to suspect that you have some kind of contaminant
like ammonia in your water supply. Perhaps sewage or manure
if you are on a farm is the source of this ammonia. If you boil
the water does the pH drop  to near 7.0?  Has this water
been tested biologically?
- -----------------------------------------------
John Sandlin wants to make plum wine.  Like all the stone
fruits, plums have a lot of pulp which makes it difficult to vinify.
Be sure to use sodium metabisulfite to prevent browning
(prunes) and pectic enzyme to free the juice from the pulp
and make clarification easier. Adjust the specific gravity to
1.09 to 1.1 with boiled sugar syrup to get a stable wine.
- ----------------------------------------------- 

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:12:21 -0400
From: MacRae Kevin J <kmacrae at UF2269P01.PeachtreeCityGA.NCR.COM>
Subject: Well, Pat got stuck in his carboy again. 

Should I drop in an airstone hooked to an aquarium pump or pure Oxygen?  
How long do you oxygenate humans, I know they only need it for respiration,
not for much growth.  

What about nutrients, I've got this package of nutrient, but I'm not sure
whether to add it when adding the human to the primary or transferring to
secondary.  Is there at least any flat beer or yeast sediment to get you by
for a while.  

And finings.  People are big particles.  Probably need something bigger than
the common .5 to 5 micron filter.  Even straining him through a green
scrubbie pad would be tough.  

How long do you typically lager your human?  What's the correct serving
temp?  (I know, ask JeffDahmer, but that's a different digest)  

A good trick for getting a stopper out is to stick a coat hanger through it,
that would lead to an excessively messy carboy, and probably more spam.  

You think that getting stuck again would be enough to get him to switch to
plastic. (Oh no)




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---