---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  No competition just Beer and Fun ("John S. Thomas")
  Cooler Warping (Rich Hampo)
  Re: IGLOO v. GOTT (Peter Walsh)
  Re:  Green Beer (bob_poirier)
  Death by CO2 (Al Korzonas)
  Milk Stout (Al Korzonas)
  CO2, the last word (hopefully) (John E Carsten)
  Bottle Conditioning with Lager Yeast ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Re: Big Brew '98 - International ("Brian Rezac")
  FWH More Questions/Cold Break ("Shawn Andrews")
  Answers to dungeon brewing questions (Jim Suggs)
  Finings (Bob Gould)
  Re: False bottom problems; wort aeration; lots of cold break (John Bowerman)
  Redhook ESB Recipe (Geoff Peake)
  Judge Digest ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Will this pump work for a RIMS system? ("Raymond Johnson")
  Doing the math.... (Chas Peterson)
  Mixing The Mash (results)
  Re: Carm's Hops (Jeff Renner)
  Overwelming response to Carm's (mine!) harshness problems (salvator)
  Two possibilities - Re: Getting VERY frustrated . . . Please help! ("Anton Verhulst")
  Primetabs (tm) ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Liberty!! At Last!!! ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  cornelius kegs (JPullum127)
  Water Problems (Geoff Peake)
  Re: Harsh brew (Mark E. Lubben)
  Beta Glucanases ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  Re: Ed's RIM pump ("Raymond C. Steinhart")




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:48:05 -0700
From: "John S. Thomas" <jthomas at iinet.com>
Subject: No competition just Beer and Fun



Press Release

What:  Eight Annual Southern California Homebrewers Festival
Where:  In the 'Big Top' overlooking beautiful Lake Skinner California -
east of Temecula
When:  May 2, 1998 - Saturday - 10AM to 7PM
Speakers:
Ken Grossman, founder of Sierra Nevada Brewing Co, Chico, CA
Randy Mosher, noted author, speaker and builder of homebrewing equipment,
Chicago, IL
Activities:
Taste club brews, discuss the recipes and the equipment that made them great
Brewing equipment displays
Music from 10AM to 6PM.  Returning by popular demand the spectacular Jeff
Jones
Quartet and the Great Maltose Falcons Blues Band.
Camping is available for those brave souls with a pioneer spirit and a
yearning for the outdoors.
Enjoy the fun with approximately 1200 homebrewers.
Three types of food concessions will be available.
Tickets:
Purchase tickets from your local homebrew club or ask the local retail
homebrew store.
The California Homebrewers Association was formed by the incorporation of
the Southern
California Homebrewers Association by its 25 club members.  This California
corporation is a
not for profit 501c(3) organization.  Membership is open to all California
homebrew clubs.
For Fest 98 information call Terry Hale, Fest 98 Chairman and CHA President
at 562-908-9434.

John S. Thomas
jthomas at minibrew.com
California Homebrewers Association
Box 1387 Temecula CA - t/f 909-676-2337-



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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:50:15 -0400
From: rhampo at ford.com (Rich Hampo)
Subject: Cooler Warping

Hey Gang,

Just a datapoint on Cooler Warping:
I have a 5 gallon GOTT in which I have taken out
the drain and replaced it with a tube thru a rubber
stopper (which I remove after use for cleaning).
After say 25 or 30 batches, the cooler started
to warp a little. Just a few batches ago, when cleaning
the cooler, I found that water had gotten inside it - that
is in between the walls of the cooler. So I tilted it
and managed to drain most of the water out the 
bung hole - since this is the only place that water can
enter or exit from between the walls. The next time I used
the cooler, I noticed the warping had *reduced* and the 
cooler is now almost back to normal shape. 

My theory is that the vapor pressure of the water inside
the walls causes the inner wall to bulge since the outer
wall is much thicker. My usual procedure is to assemble the
manifold and put the tube/stopper in the bung hole, then 
add the hot mash. This means that any  water inside the walls
is cold, then after it is sealed, the mash heats it up and
causes it to expand. My solution (not done yet) is 
to drill a few drain holes in the bottom of the outer wall 
to prevent water and/or pressure buildup in the future. 

Anyone else have this same experience?

Brew on!

Richard Hampo
H&H Brewing Ltd.
3 miles NE of the HBD server in Lovely Livonia, MI



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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Walsh <peter at webbing.com>
Subject: Re: IGLOO v. GOTT

> 
> I know this is an old subject, but I've not seen anyone say they've 
> experienced a warped Gott cooler.  I use a Gott 10-gallon.(I bought it at 
> Builders Square), and it's warped to beat hell.  I have no experience with 
> the Igloo cooler, but if it does warp, it couldn't be worse than my Gott
> 

Just another data point. I have an IGLOO (Orange with White top) and I
have also seen IGLOO's (Yellow with Red top). In over two years of use,
there is absolutly no warping whatsoever in my Orange with White top
IGLOO. Perhaps there is a difference between the two models? I'm not
talking about the orange and white GOTT, it is definitly an IGLOO.

- -----
Peter Walsh
peter at webbing.com



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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 12:44:50 -0600
From: bob_poirier at adc.com
Subject: Re:  Green Beer


     In HBD #2684, Jason Gorman asks about making a green beer.
     
     I've got this desk-top calendar, "365 Bottles of Beer For The Year", 
     and for Friday, April 10, '98, the featured beer was Kitami Mint Green 
     Beer, brewed by Rogue exclusively for the Japanese market.  It's 
     supposed to have "... the aroma of chocolate-chip mint ice cream and a 
     well-carbonated, clear, light-emerald green body."  
     
     I thought this might be interesting to try to clone, so I checked out 
     Rogue's web site (http://rogueales.com), but didn't find any mention 
     of Kitami Beer (of course).  I also didn't find any e-mail addresses I 
     could send questions to regarding their brews.  Does anyone know how 
     to contact the Oregon Brewing Company (aka Rogue Ales Brewery) via 
     e-mail?
     
     TIA.
     
     Bob P.
     bob_poirier at adc.com




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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:10:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Death by CO2

Ray writes:
>  This got started because Al K. replied to a post about CO2 cylinders,
>and warned that the highest percentage of brewing fatalities are
>caused by CO2.  That is death for brewers, as in professionals.
>Not homebrewers.  And they usually die while cleaning out the giant
>fermenters, without having properly flushed them out with air.
>So if you stay out of your carboys, you should be safe.

Indeed, I should have said *professional* brewers.  I agree that it's
most often caused by them climbing into tanks that are have not been
properly flushed with air, but if you visit Samuel Smith's Old Brewery 
in Tadcaster (I've got photos on my website), you'll see a big sign
on the door to the fermentation room warning the staff to run the
ventilation fans before entering the room.  I'm not 100% sure, but
"asphyxiation" may have been mentioned on the sign.

As a datapoint, I brew outdoors at this time, but my beer and CO2 tanks
are all stored in the basement.  My main tank is a 20-pounder. The
ceiling is quite low.  My rough guesstimate of the CO2% if the entire
20# tank was to vent, based upon Richard's excellent post, is perhaps
18%.  You see...  although the room is about 10 x 20 x 7, a good 30%
of it's volume is taken up by three refrigerators, cabinets, *beer*, perhaps
thirty 7-gallon HDPE sealed buckets full of malt, carboys chugging away,
furniture, etc.  At times, it's merely a maze of paths through the stuff.
Even my brewing system (also on my website) is stored in there when not in
use.  I thought that the CO2% would have been much higher than 18% given
that it appeared to be a relatively small space to me.

Sorry that I made a bigger deal out of this than I should have.

Al.


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:24:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Milk Stout

Dave writes:
>And then
>there's Milk Stout ( name no longer allowed due to truth
>in packaging laws) from Britain reputed to be helpful to the
>breast feeding British Mums.

I believe it is still labeled "Milk Stout" and there's no
problem with truth in labeling because what makes it "Milk
Stout" is because milk sugar (lactose) is what is added to
make it very sweet.  I had a Tennent's Milk Stout about five
years ago.

As for breast-feeding mums, if I'm not mistaken, any stout
was recommended... this *could* be because stout is higher in
iron than paler beers.  Anyone know why stout is higher in
iron?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: 16 Apr 1998 13:38:13 -0500
From: John E Carsten <John.E.Carsten at oklaosf.state.ok.us>
Subject: CO2, the last word (hopefully)

It is my understanding that CO2 is heavier than air.

Operating from that assumption; unless you are lying down, are
knocked over by an exploding CO2 cylinder, or are a brewer less
than three feet in height ... you are not likely to have any problems.
Upon leaking, the CO2 should settle near the floor.  My suggestion:
Pour yourself a homebrew, open the windows and doors and scoop fido
and any other short critters up off the floor (they should be easier to round
up since they will likely be unconscious).

Then go out onto the porch and have a beer while your house (and your
animals) air out.

Will the weekend chemists please give us a break and let us get onto
other subjects?


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:26:02 -0700
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Bottle Conditioning with Lager Yeast

Greetings all...I recently made two batches of beer with Wyeast's Munich
Lager yeast - one is a Biere de Garde, the other a Pilsner.  I recently
bottled the Biere de Garde (OG 1.062), and after two weeks there seems
to be very little yeast sediment in the bottles.  My pilsner is in
secondary and is already brilliantly clear after less than two weeks of
lagering.  My question is, does one need to add extra yeast at bottling
to ensure proper carbonation, even with relatively short lagering times
(< 6 weeks)?  I never need to do this for ales (except for high OG
ales), but I'm wondering if the flocculant nature of the lager yeast
will necessitate re-pitching for even lower gravity beers.  Any comments
appreciated,

Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado


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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:44:21 -0600
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Re: Big Brew '98 - International

Tony Barnsley, of Blackpool, Lancashire, UK, wrote:

>
>
> What a brilliant idea, Good luck to all the brewers who will be
> participating. Having looked at the starting times, I think that there
> is no way I will be able to join Taking EST and adding 5 Hours makes for
> a start time of 7PM allowing 6 hours for the brewing and another hour
> for clean up thats 2Am in the morning. Sorry guy's you're on your own
> this time. I'll be with you in spirit!

First of all, Tony, thanks for the kind words.  We truly wanted Big Brew '98
to be of interest to brewers all over and at all levels and we're pretty
excited about it also.  I'm glad to see that it's being received in the same
light that we intended.

As the organizer of Big Brew '98 and author of the "Rules & Regulations",
let me say that our intentions in designing the "Rules" to Big Brew '98 were
not to exclude any brewers.  Many of the "rules", such as synchronizing the
start time, were highly suggested by Guinness Media in order to qualify for
just consideration for inclusion in their book.  And even if everyone
follows all the rules, we still have no guarantee that the record will be
included in the Guinness Book of Records.

With this in mind, let me suggest a compromise/solution.  Participate
anyway.  Brew at a time that is more practical for you.  The same goes for
any North American brewers who may not be participating because of the start
time.  The AHA will gather and report ALL information on all the
participating brewing sites, including sites that didn't synchronize their
brewing.  You will be counted.

Currently, we even have 2 brewpubs and 1 BOP participating in Big Brew '98.
Their batches won't be included as homebrews or for the Guinness record
attempt, but they will be included in the totals for the AHA.  For the
"official" record attempt, we will give Guinness Media only the information
on the sites that qualify (follow the "rules").

We don't want to dilute our goal of getting this event included in the
Guinness Book of Records.  But we don't want to exclude any brewer who is
interested in participating.  So, in closing, Tony, let me encourage you to
participate.  We would love to have you on board.

Big Brew '98
E Pluribus (Br)Unum!  -   {From Many, One (Brew)!}

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
brian at aob.org        http:/beertown.org



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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:37:46 -0500
From: "Shawn Andrews" <sabrewer at fgi.net>
Subject: FWH More Questions/Cold Break

   Hi everyone. In FWH do you add the bittering hops plus aroma/flavor, or
just aroma/flavor? Is a 60 or 90 minute boil recommended? I normally do
a 60 minute to avoid excessive evaporation. I also use whole hops most
of the time. Should I do a 90 and damn the losses? I brew 13 gallon batches
that I split with a friend, so we try to get the most out of our materials.
Not
that we don't put a lot of materials in, we just want to get the most out
of
them. I use a cajun cooker(180,000 BTU), and this thing will really boil
away
some wort! Advice welcomed.
   On another topic. I'm going to rack an APA tonight that has some very
funky chunkies which are white floating around the top. In the past I
always
assumed this to be yeast. This time, however, I used 1056 and have never
seen it behave this way. I've always known1056 to do it's thing and settle
out. Anyone experienced this with recent Wyeast 1056? Is this cold break?
I experience this from time to time, but normally with top fermenters that
usually leave funky chunks in a layer on top of the beer. This is a new one
on me for 1056 to do this.
   Thank you for your time. Private e-mail just fine. Brewing Sunday, so
any
advice on FWH is greatly appreciated.
         TIA,   Shawn Andrews



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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:58:31 -0400
From: Jim Suggs <suggs at pile.org>
Subject: Answers to dungeon brewing questions

Hey everyone

Got a lot of good answers to my questions about setting up shop in my
dungeon of a basement.  Thanks to everyone who responded (about 13 of you!)
 Here's what I found out:

>>1.  Does that musty smell indicate a nasty infection source?

Mold and/or mildew is probably the cause of the smell.  Doesn't seem as if
they are terribly aggressive or harmful.  Only one person reported
suspecting problems with it.  As Kelly Jones wrote, "Remember, some of the
world's best beer was (and is) brewed in old buildings with stone walls,
cobwebs, and no sanitation routine."  Basically, if I keep decent
sanitation practices up, I'll be in good shape.

>>2.  What kind of temperature variations can I expect (in the basement?)

Sounds like hour to hour and day to day there really isn't much temperature
variation.  Folks reported ranges of 50F in the dead of winter to about 70
in the summer, with an average 10-15 degree swing.  This can be tempered by
the positioning of a carboy relative to a heater.  It's 50 degrees down
there now (hasn't moved every time i've looked over the past week); looks
like i'm going to be brewing some lagers, finally.

>>5.  Starting with distilled water, can I just add salts to get to the
right mineral profile?

I actually did a little reading about this on my own, and was glad to have
my thoughts confirmed.  The only trace cations of import seem to be copper
and zinc.  Malt supplies enough zinc, and probably enough copper, with
copper fittings helping the latter along.  Sounds like it's not anything to
be concerned with.  Ken Schwartz sent along a link to his brewing water
calculator, which looks like a great tool (thanks Ken!)

My beer's about empty, and my wife is mocking me, so I'd better get going.
Thanks to everyone who answered.  



- ----------------------------------
Jim Suggs
Brewer, Chemist, Centerfielder, Pile.
suggs at pile.org
http://www.mindspring.com/~jvsuggs
- ----------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:08:23 -0500
From: Bob Gould <bobg at usaor.net>
Subject: Finings

A relative newby question:

I'm in the process of making a Papazian's Cuslomachree Stout (more or less)
 - grain + extract clone of Murphy's Irish Stout.  Its in the primary now.
I stupidly forgot to add irish moss during the boil and am wondering what
to use in the secondary if anything.  From what I've read PolyClar and/or
Gelatin could be added when racking to the secondary.  Is this correct, and
is it really needed considering the darkness of the stuff.  I haven't
really seen a good discussion of effects of haze other than aesthetics.  Is
there an impact on flavor if I don't use any finings?  Thanks in advance.

	- Bob (hoping for a speedy reply because I'm drooling all over the
carboy in anticipation of the first pint of the stuff)

Bob Gould      (BobG at usaor.net)    http://www.usaor.net/users/bobg/home.html

 "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce
  the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
  this is not true."   -Robert Wilensky




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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:50:04 -0700
From: John Bowerman <jbowerma at kfalls.net>
Subject: Re: False bottom problems; wort aeration; lots of cold break

Hi all,

Two comments and a question ...
- ------------------

In HBD 2685 Steve Rockey wrote:

> I recently started doing all grain brews.  I use a converted
Gott cooler
> to mash my grains.  In the bottom, I have a 9 inch false
bottom.  Each time
> (3) I have brewed my sparge gets terribly stuck.  Yesterday when
I brewed I
> checked carefully when I was cleaning out the cooler to try and
get the
> sparge going, and it appears that the false bottom is floating
up when I
> put the hot water in the Gott.  The grain then gets under the
false bottom
> and plugs the hole.  The directions I have say that I should add
water to
> the bottom of the Gott before putting any grain in.  Can I put
the grain in
> first?  I believe I read that putting the grain in first can
cause stuck
> sparges.  The one time I got the flow to work, all was great,
but other
> than that I am stumped.  Replies are appreciated.

I am also a recent convert to all grain.  I use a Gott and a Phils
Phalse Bottom.
I started adding the grains to the liquor, but now put the grain
in first.  I've
only had a stuck sparge once (my very first time).  I attribute
that to too fine
a setting on my local shop's corona.  Since then, I've paid closer
attention to
the setting (they've also switched to a roller mill recently) and
there haven't
been any further problems.

A note on the false bottom -- mine is such a snug fit I have to
dissassemble
the drain line and use a metal hook down through the central hole
to
pry it out for cleaning (one of these days I'll install a loop
handle of 120 lb
fishing line and some tygon tubing) so there's not much chance
it's floating up.
I still get some fines through the false bottom, but not enough to
plug
anything.
- --------------------------

In HBD 2685 Bob Poirier wrote:

> Also, instead of using pure oxygen, how about using an aquarium
air
> pump?  What kind of filter do you need to use with an air pump?

I'm sure the purists won't agree with this, but I've been using a
filtered
aquarium air pump for over a year now.  I got tired of cleaning up

the mess when the cork popped out while rocking my carboy.  The
filter
is a homemade unit of brass fittings, 1/2 inch tygon tubing. some
sterile
cotton, and a few drops of sanitizer (it isn't one of those
micropore types,
but it seems to trap the big chunks and at least makes me feel
better).
The air stone is a stainless unit (I don't remember the brand).  I
aerate
the wort after it's been chilled to pitching temp, but never after
pitching.
- -------------------------

Lastly, a question for all of you ...

I get tremendous cold break, and usually lose about a half-gallon
to a gallon of wort in the kettle in order to leave it behind.  No
amount
of whirlpooling seems to concentrates it.  Because loose hops plug
the
drain in my kettle, I use a hop bag, so the idea of using hops as
a filter
bed doesn't work.

The break is extremely fine and short of using a sediment style
filter,
I haven't been able to come up with a solution.  I'd appreciate
any
thoughts, comments, and hairballs anyone has.

John Bowerman
Klamath Falls, OR

private e-mail ok

*****************************
Anyone who wants to be a politician,
should automatically be disqualified.
*****************************








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Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:55:19 -0700
From: gpeake at mail.island.net (Geoff Peake)
Subject: Redhook ESB Recipe

        Not too long ago on the WWW bulletin board we had a fair amount of
traffic regarding this brew.  I emailed the redhook not long after that and
received this reply which spells it out pretty plainly:

        "The actual grain charge is more like 94% 2-row and 6% carmel 60.
However, you may find that doesn't quite convert accurately. We do a step
mash with a protein rest  at  50 Celsius and ramp up to 71 Celsius and ferment
at about 21 degrees Celsius(I figure you can convert these). You're right
on the IBU's;(35)  OG is just slightly higher  at  1054. The actual hops are
Willamettes w/ Tettnangs on the finish. Those hops are the hefe hops. As
far as yeast goes, ours is proprietary but a California Ale yeast will
probably work for you.

Good Luck - Jim Galiardi"

Regretfully Redhook is not available in this country so I have to rely on
this recipe. Hope this helps

Cheers

Geoff Peake
Courtenay, BC, CA.




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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:19:38 -0700
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Judge Digest

Just received a message from Chuck Cox re: my JudgeNet inquiry.

JudgeNet, the BJCP Judge Digest, has suffered from a server crash
and is down until 5/1/98.  Contrary to popular belief, Bill Giffin had
nothing to do with it ;-)

Cheers,
Randy in Modesto


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:30:45 -0400
From: "Raymond Johnson" <JOHNSONR2 at state.mi.us>
Subject: Will this pump work for a RIMS system?

The only advice I can give is to make sure the pump can handle high temps 
(i.e. 212 f).

If it is a magnetic pump, it may not vacuum prime of course; it requires a 
gravity prime to pump.  I'd also suggest putting a ball valve on the 
outlet side of the pump to regulate the flow, that way the pump is always 
full of liquid and you won't run the risk of accidentally letting the pump 
"go dry".

You really did luck out if this pump works for you.  I paid top $$$ for my 
pump, but it was worth every penny.  I use it to re-circulate during the 
last 15-20 min. of the mash, transfer wort to the boiling kettle (this 
avoids any hot-side aeration), and finally, to pump through my CF wort 
chiller.  Every all-grain homebrewer needs one of these babies.

- -- Cheers!   :)


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:09:20 -0400
From: Chas Peterson <chasp at digex.net>
Subject: Doing the math....

HBDers-

Thanks to Jeff Renner who did what none of the rest of us did -- the math!
To be honest, I didn't read through the recipe portion of Carms post
carfully enough.  Good going Jeff!

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md
- ------------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:40:09 -0500
From: results <results at win.bright.net>
Subject: Mixing The Mash

The old Strohs (Hamms) brewery in St. Paul had two of these things built
in like the '30s. They were steam fired and considerably larger of
course, but the idea is the same. Looked like a good idea to me. Of
course they have dedicated lauter tuns; I have no idea how you wold
luater in one of those unless it was built like a washing machine. Hey
wait a minute,  maybe Red Green had a good idea after all... The spin
cycle would do wounders for sparging.. ;-)

Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas, WI
http://www.win.bright.net


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:05:49 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Carm's Hops

I wrote regarding Carm's harshness:
>But here is a big clue:
>
>>  1 oz Chinook (12.5%) 60 min
>
>assuming 23% utilization, = 69 IBU

Thanks to Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> for pointing out that I misplaced
a digit or something.  Indeed I did - I ran it for 1.5 oz. Chinook.  Dooh!
This would give ~50 IBU, just fine for the style.  My apologies.  Carm will
have to look elsewhere for his harshness I guess.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:31:19 +0000
From: salvator at future.dreamscape.com
Subject: Overwelming response to Carm's (mine!) harshness problems

First of all let me thank the collective here for taking the time to 
respond privately and here. I appreciate it tremendously. 

A couple of clarifications about my original post though.

The water I used for every batch - PRIOR - to this last one was the 
spring water. For this last batch I used city tap water that was run 
through the carbon filter to remove the chlorine. The specs I gave 
were for the city water - sent to me by the water board - and NOT the 
spring water. And, it was the spring water that left all of the 
deposit residue when I mistakenly boiled some dry. I apologize for 
not making this clearer the first go around.

I'm using a calibrated pH meter from Hanna Instruments - I believe 
that this is plenty acurate, and calibrated correctly. I used this 
meter to verify the pH of the city tap water and measured within .04 
of thier stated pH. 

Most of the responses I've recevied have centered around 3 subjects.

1. Hops - Many people are of the opinion that Chinook hops are 
somewhat harsh and that my use of 1oz at 12.5% for a 1.050 beer is 
too much. Unfortuantly I have used No. Brewer and Perle that were 
lower in AA and at lower hopping rates and achieved (not much of 
an achievement though!) that same results. I don't think my problem 
lies here - although I'm sure that it is making the sum total of the 
problem worse.

2. Mash/Water/pH - Some people have looked at the specs I gave from 
the water board for my city tap water and thought that they were not 
quit right. I'll adimt that the pH looked high for the mineral 
composition of the water - Sooooooo - yesterday I called the water 
board to check on the pH that was quoted - well it was correct pH = 
9.2. The funny thing here is that without adding any correction and 
without any dark grain the pH fell right to 5.2 - with water that 
alkaline I would have expected that the mash pH would have been too 
high and I fully exoected to add some gysum to try and lower it. 
Could it be that because it has so little mineral conternt it had too 
little buffering capaicity even though the water's pH was high?

3. Sparge - I stated that I added some lactic acid to my sparge water 
to drop the pH from  9.2 to 7.0. Some people have stated that this is 
not enough - I should drop it to at least 6.0 and maybe as far as 
5.5. 

I'm still digesting the responses and will make a change or two when 
I brew this weekend. Will report the results and changes.

Once again - thanks to all of you who took the time to respond.


Carm Salvatore


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:00:38 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Two possibilities - Re: Getting VERY frustrated . . . Please help!


Hypothesis #1 Harshness caused by tannins

"....prominent harshness. The 2 wheat batches actually came out pretty
good...".  Wheat doesn't have husks.  Some how, you may be extracting
tannins from the barley husks and that's where the harshness is coming from.

It sounds like you have the pH thing under control but I'm suspicious.  Getting
no break is pretty rare if the pH is correct.  How are you measuring the pH?
Avoid those cheap paper strips like the plague.  There are several narrow
range strips (pH 4 - 7) available that are quite accurate.

If it's not the pH, then maybe you're shredding the barley husks while 
crushing and this would increase the surface area and, subsequently, tannin
extraction.

Hypothesis #2  Harshness caused by hop / mineral interaction

High levels of minerals in the water are known to change the hop flavor profile.
Look at the water of Burton on Trent for and example.  Activated charcoal
filters are great for removing chlorine and organics but do nothing at all for
dissolved solids.  I know that you added some distilled water but I strongly
recommend testing for hardness.  If this is the cause of the harshness, the
reason that you didn't notice it in the wheat beer is that this style is 
typically hopped at much lower levels than other beers.

Tony V.


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:17:01 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Primetabs (tm)

Hello All,

Just wanted to post a report on a product I just tried recently with
favorable results. (Standard disclaimer applies, no I don't work for,
invest in, or have any affliation with this company)
They are called Primetab(s) and come in a small plastic packet of
approximately 250 - 500 mg tablets. I got them free from Lewis Good at
WABBY in Miami to try out just to see what they are all about.
Instructions are written on the package and are simple enough; with
sanitary conditions simply drop 3 tabs into each bottle at filling time
and cap as normal. It claims to be the same amount of carbonation as 1/2
cup corn sugar per 5 US gallons. My last batch I bottled a six pack (the
rest in a Corny) and did an experiment with 2 bottles each containing 1,
2, and 3 tabs each, marking them accordingly. This particular brew was
my house American Pale Ale and the recipe is fairly consistent. The SG
at racking time was 1.018, just about .002 from complete. I left the
bottles at room temp of 74F for a week then a week in the refrig at 40F.
At tasting time I tested the beers in order of least amount of tabs
first. The brew with 1 tab was very, very lightly carbonated, and showed
very few small rising bubbles. The brew with 2 tabs was a little better.
This would probably be just about right for your bitters and other
lightly carbonated brews. The brew with three was absolutely perfect in
my honest opinion. Granted, your tastes and likes mary vary, but I would
say that this would be just about right for most all styles required
moderate to high carbonation. Please remember that these brews were only
conditioned for 2 weeks total. 
As far as economy, these tabs retail for less than $1.50 (unverified) so
they cost a little more than bulk dextrose (at about $1 a lb.). You
should be able to bottle at least 80-12 oz bottles. But, for guys like
me who brew 6 gallons, keg 5, and bottle the rest for give aways and
competitions and the like, they are very convenient and have proven to
be fairly accurate in my experience. 

Give 'em a try!!

- -- 
Captain Marc Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
Future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:27:05 -0400
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Liberty!! At Last!!!

Been working on a Anchor Liberty Ale clone for quite some time and
finally stuck gold! The 2 key ingredients that finally made the
breakthrough were the yeast (obviously) and the hops and hppoing
schedule. The brew finished it's conditioning yesterday and when I
tasted it, success never tasted soooo gooood, believe me! It is golden,
slightly hazy, GREAT big frothy head, and hopppppppyyyyyy!!!
I won't bore the collective with the recipe unless enough people want it
posted. Feel free to e-mail me if you want a copy.

Thanks go out to George Fix, and All About Beer Magazine, for helping
find the answers to my ingredient questions!!

Cheers,
- -- 
Captain Marc Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
Future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"



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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:08:24 EDT
From: JPullum127 <JPullum127 at aol.com>
Subject: cornelius kegs

I was just given 10 cornelius kegs from a guy who opened a business and found
them in a closet. I don't know anything about kegging . is there a kegging faq
lurking out there? could especially use some advice on cleaning them as most
still have pop in them   thanks


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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:24:24 -0700
From: gpeake at mail.island.net (Geoff Peake)
Subject: Water Problems

>From: salvator at future.dreamscape.com
>Subject: Getting VERY frustrated . . . Please help!

>(snip)
>Can anyone offer any suggestions as to where my problem/s may lie?
>Remember I didn't perceive the same harshness from the 2 wheat
>batches - but they were less hopped. The frustration level is running
>very high - if I can't solve this real soon there'll be some
>equipment for sale.

        I am no water chemist but if I'm not mistaken, the pH of your water
seems way to *high* for the amount of minerals in your water.  There must
be significant amounts of SOMETHING in there to jack that pH up to
9.2--9.6.  Jeff Renner's point of just plain too many hops is well taken
too.  The best thing to try is a batch or two with totally different water
(which you can get an analysis for) and see how things turn out.  If your
beers taste better then you know it IS the water.   My water is high in
iron and manganese so I just drive into town and fill a few water jugs from
the local brew shop.  The water there is even softer than Pilsen water, pH
7.1 and almost an ideal starting base for making beer.


Good Luck

Geoff Peake
Courtenay, BC




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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:51:16 -0400
From: mel at genrad.com (Mark E. Lubben)
Subject: Re: Harsh brew


There have been various posts about Carm Salvatore's beer.  The lack
of break is puzzling, but my experience would indicate too LOW a PH
during the boil could cause it.  Too high a PH during sparge would
extract tannins so I wouldn't worry.  Like Jeff Renner, I agree in
suspecting the large amount of high alpha Chinook.

I haven't seen anyone jump on it, but was this hopping taken
from an extract recipe by chance?  It seems like a common mistake
when starting all-grain.  If you assume a 2 gallon concentrated boil,
the utilization drops and it becomes a hoppy but tolerable pale ale.

By Tinseth and other tools I got numbers that said I should cut my hops
by 25% when I went to a full boil (coinciding with all-grain).
I found I actually had to cut back more like 35%.  I decided it must
be because I also switched to an outdoor propane burner giving a more
vigorous boil compared to the 2.5 gallon boil on the kitchen stove.
Maybe it helps that I don't have to fear death if it boils over.

I used similar amount of 11.7% Galena in a ELEVEN GALLON batch
of robust porter!  First sample when racking to secondary says
that I won't be drinking lots of it for a "few" weeks yet.


Mark Lubben

BTW
I find it much easier to see out of a carboy than a plastic bucket.
Of course that makes it harder to hide from the spouse unless there
is porter or stout in there with me.   Tradeoffs...


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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:33:45 +0100
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com>
Subject: Beta Glucanases

Ray Estrella writes about an enzyme complex sent to him by SAF-ISIS:

>It is called SAFIZYM PTN-L, it is "an enzymatic complex that displays
>strengthened Xylanase activities. (Endoglucanases, cellbiohydrolases,
>and b-glucosidases) It is especially suited for the hydrolysis of the
>hemicellulosic and cellulosic fractions"  In their specifications
they
>come up with 12000 B-glucanase Units/ml.  "The B-glucanase unit is
>described as the amount of enzyme that releases one micromole of
>reducing function per minute as glucose equivalent, with barley
B-glucan
>as substrate"  (Quoted items are from material they sent me)

My advice to you is to be very wary of claims by enzyme manufacturers
on units of activity for enzymes (this is a general statement and is
not directed toward any single manufacturer, including SAF-ISIS, as I
know nothing about this particular company).
Enzymes are very particular as to which substrates they will work on,
and the substrates a manufacturer tests his enzyme on is quite likely
to be different than the substrate you need it to work on. Barley
B-glucans are the perfect example. Statistically, barley B-glucans are
about 70% B-1,4 links and 30% B-1,3 links. Barley B-glucans can also
be subdivided based on whether they are hot water soluble (gums) or
alkali soluble (hemicelluloses). The gums are of particular interest
to brewers and they can be further subdivided into those that are
soluble at 40C (smaller MW) and those that are soluble at 65C (higher
MW). The 65C substrate contains consecutive B-1,3 links, whereas the
40C substrate contains only single B-1,3 links. This becomes
significant when considering B-glucanases.
There are basically 3 types of commercially available B-glucanases
(obtained from fungi and bacteria). Endo-B-1,4-glucanase;
Endo-B-1,3:1,4-glucanase; and Endo-B-1,3-glucanase (the latter two
occur naturally in barley). Most manufacturers will not tell you (and
may not even know) exactly what the mixture of B-glucanases is in
their enzyme soup. Instead, they give you obscure figures about enzyme
units/ml that you are expected to understand. Even if you happen to be
a biochemist and understand enzyme units, the claims of the
manufacturer can still be misleading. Consider the case above where
the manufacturer claims 12000 units/ml for barley B-glucan as
substrate. It is fairly common practice to prepare the barley B-glucan
substrate by extracting the B-glucans from flaked barley in water at
40C. Presumably, this extracts the 40C substrate, but because the
barley had been previously heated above 65C in the flaking process,
the primary substrate present is actually the 65C substrate. Now,
let's suppose that the enzyme soup is primarily Endo-B-1,3-glucanase.
This enzyme will show high activity when assayed on the extract of
flaked barley because of the presence of 65C substrate (remember it
has consecutive 1,3 links), but would not have nearly the same
activity on the 40C substrate (the activity on pure 40C substrate may
be 1000 units/ml rather than 12000 units/ml).  If you were to rely on
the figures given to you by the enzyme manufacturer and use the enzyme
preparation at the recommended dosage, you may be sorely disappointed
when the viscosity of your wort that is high in 40C substrate does not
drop significantly.
I do not mean to scare people away from using enzymes (although a good
brewer using good raw materials will generally not need them), but
wanted to enforce the point that if you introduce enzymes into your
brewing process without knowing their exact specificity, you are only
increasing the chance of variability in your end product because of
inadequate understanding of how all your brewing materials and
processing aids work together. If purchasing B-glucanases, ask whether
the substrate the enzyme was tested on was whole, milled barley or
flaked barley.
- --------------
Cheers,
Mort O'Sullivan



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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:43:53 -0500
From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Re: Ed's RIM pump

Ed, This is way overkill. Maybe in a brewery but not in a RIM system. 
You could control the output by placing a valve on the discharge side. 
You don't put one on the suction side because you could damage the seals
from lack of lubrication from the pumping fluids.  Also, this uses a
mechanical seal which is dificult to keep clean to prevent contaminating
your wort and to prevent it from destroying itself when it had gummy
wort left in it.  

Total head in feet is how high a vertical column of water can be pushed
by the pump (this is a measure of the pumps ability to move a fluid
against resistance from the piping system).  As the height increases,
flow decreases.  This also effects pressure indirectly. This type of
pump (centrifugal) is made for moving volumes of water at relatively low
pressures.
- -- 
My RIM System
"http://www.mcs.net/~rnr"


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---