---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  aging (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Re: High pH Tap Water (Scott Murman)
  Help with Eric's Raspberry Wheat. (Tom Gentry)
  Traverse City Brews (Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii)
  Husky Tannins ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Paradise Seeds ("Joel Plutchak")
  Re: slow cool/evap rates ("Jim Busch")
  Grains of Paradise, ginger wit (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Paradise Seeds (John E Carsten)
  Re: Tinseth hop calculations (brian_dixon)
  Re: Briess Pale Ale Malt (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  Re: One last Idophor question (brian_dixon)
  Pizza pan false bottom ("Andrew Avis")
  Condom Oxygenators (EFOUCH)
  Re: paradise seeds ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  What are "green flavors"? (Seelsorge)
  cat puke samples (AlannnnT)
  new hydrometer (JPullum127)
  To top off or not to top off that is the ? ("Dr. Dwight A Erickson")
  kiln (Jon Sandlin)
  Re: Yakima Goldings (Aaron A Sepanski)
  Briess 2 row pale (Brad Johnson)
  Cold Break Question (Steve)
  re:yakima goldings (Sean Mick)
  Too Hot! (Troy Hager)
  Bugs inside cooler (Troy Hager)
  Yeah... I've got milk... and references! (Al Korzonas)
  proteins and body/decoctions (Al Korzonas)
  Paradise (Al Korzonas)


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:35:44 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: aging

Dear Brewers,

Last evening our homebrewclub had a meeting at my house and we sampled
eight English Bitters and Strong Ales which were taken home from a trip
to England a few weeks ago. On the labels the best before date was July
/ December 1998.
Four of the Bitters / Strong Ales had a little to strong taste of
chocolate! and some  port(-wine) notes.
Pedigree bitter from Marston  4.5 %
Bombardier premium bitter from Charles Wells  4.3 %
Black Sheep Ale from Paul Teakston's Black Sheep Brewery  4.4 %
Tangle foot strong ale from  Badger brewery 5 %

The others tasted fruity, hoppy, slightly malty.
King Billy Bitter from Cropton Brewery  3.6 %
6x from Wadworth Brewery  4.3 %
Golden Promise organic Ale from Caledonian Brewery  5 %
Old Speckled Hen strong ale from Morland Brewery  5 %

I thought portwine taste is a sign of aging. But the beers weren't old.
And what could caused the chocolate taste?  None of the beers had (even
a slight) taste of diacetyl.
I couldn't find "chocolate or port(wine) in Pale Ale (ClassicBeer
StyleSeries) nor in Evaluating Beer (Brewers Publications).

Please comment (what do the (home)brewers from the UK think?).

I don't have access to Internet (just E-mail).
TIA,  Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema



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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:01:11 -0700
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: High pH Tap Water 


Just to add my $0.02, the greater San Francisco Bay Area, and probably
most of the West Coast of California has water that is above pH 9 for
the majority of the year.  I think it's safe to say that folks are
still able to brew good beer with this type of soft municipal water.

BTW, don't those brewers at Red Hook know that protein rests are
detrimental with todays highly modified malts?  You would think that
professional brewers would be aware of basic information like this.
They're almost as bad as those stubborn German brewers that still use
decoction brewing even after the invention of the thermometer.  Don't
they know they're wasting their time?

SM


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:33:04 -0600
From: Tom Gentry <brewguy at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Help with Eric's Raspberry Wheat.

In HBD #  2693,  Eric Bonney was worrying about his first raspberry wheat,
I have never posted to HBD before and saw this as a rare opportunity for me
to say something relevant and moderately interesting (and hopefully helpful
to Eric).  He had a ton of questions, I addresed some of them:

>        2.  I think the 8 oz of raspberry extract might have been  a bit
much,
>  but we will have to see.

With the Extracts from L.D. Carlson, you would use 1 bottle (4oz.) for a
hint of flavor and 2 bottles for a full flavor.  For a raspberry wheat, 8
oz. should be perfect.  Another note on those extracts, they contain no
fermentables and can and should be added at bottling (kegging) time.
Fermentation will diminish the delicate fruit aromas (CO2 scrubbing).

>        3.  After I was done cooling the wort, it had a tremendous amount of
>  trub, all I did was dump this into the fermenter.  Is there a way I
could have
>  removed this so as not to put it into the fermenter?  Will this cause any
>  problems in my beer?  After about 7 days I plan on racking it into a 5 gal.
>  carboy for about 14 days or so.

If your wort has been cooled you can pull out your trusty racking cane and
siphon off of the trub.  I do this with the addition of an aerating gizmo
attached to the other end of the siphon tubing (no hot break, instant
aeration).
A reason for leaving the hot break behind is the protein will end up as
chill haze in your finished beer, no big deal in a cloudy weizen.

>          4.  When using the pellet hops, is it ok to just put the pellets
into
>  the wort as I did in this batch, or should I have used a hop sock?  I
used the
>  sock for the finishing hops.

Your hops will eventually settle.  Sometimes I use a hop bag , sometimes
not, I've never noticed a real difference other than the "hop sock" reduced
my utilization.

>        6.  When I used the yeast, all I did was open the foil package and
>  dumped it into the wort, and mixed in.  Somewhere I recall reading
something
>  about preping the yeast in some way, or was that only if I was using dry
yeast?

Starter, starter, starter, you would need to pour in 10 smack packs to get
the minimum recommended yeast count for a 5 gallon batch (or find a ready
to pitch liquid yeast like those from White Labs).

Hope it helps, and guys, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Tom Gentry "The Unabrewer"  <brewguy at ix.netcom.com>

          -"Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand"







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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:55:59 -0400
From: Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Traverse City Brews

Going to Traverse City, MI this weekend.  Any recommendations as to where
to drink beer and where not to?  I'll probably only be able to hit one
place.  Maybe two.  TIA
Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI




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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:08:15 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Husky Tannins

Brewsters:

AlK implies that barley husks do not contain tannin and that
I should be reading the modern version of Malting & Brewing
Science.  Well, I have both versions of M&BS. Personally,  I
think it is a plus that I began reading the first edition of M&BS  in
1971 when it was first published.

But AlK aparently didn't read far enough on p 96 Para 2
of M&BS 2nd ed or at least didn't put it in his comments.

The next sentence says:

"However, phenols also occur in the 'true' (barley) husk
and may be partly removed, together with other
components of 'testinic acid' mixture using alkaline steeps,
giving rise to less astringent beers."

My point was the alkaline water  at  pH = 9.2-9.6 would dissolve
these phenols, but they would remain in the beer and could be
the cause of the astringency. Wheat would contain the
other phenols from the aleurone and pericarp like barley,
but since wheat doesn't have a true husk unlike barley,
phenols from this source would not be present in the
wheat beers. And would explain the reason his wheat beers
were not uncommonly astringent. 



Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:24:16 -0500
From: "Joel Plutchak" <joel at bolt.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Paradise Seeds

In HBD #2693, Mark Tomusiak wrote:
> Greetings all...I recently came across a homebrew supplier on the
> internet that is advertising something called "paradise seeds" for
> Belgian brewing, indicating that they lend a spicy, peppery flavor.
> Anybody have any idea what these are?  I dug around for some info on
> them, and came up with conflicting references to paprika and cardamom,
> amongst other things.  Any thoughts would be appreciated, 

   "Paradise seeds" *may* be what are known as Grains of Paradise,
Guinea Pepper, or Melegueta pepper.  The Boston Beer Company uses
them in their Summer Ale, and they were mentioned before that in
one of the _Zymurgy_ special issues (1994, I think) . I tasted one
once, and it seemed not entirely unlike Szechuan peppercorns to me--
spicy, peppery, and herb/floral aromatic.
   A quickie web search yielded a bunch of hits, including:

      http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/Crops/Grains_of_Paradise
      http://bkfug.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/Afra_mel.html

Hope that helps.
- --
Joel Plutchak

4th Annual Boneyard Brew-Off, June 13 1998, Champaign Illinois
See <http://starfire.ne.uiuc.edu/buzz/contest4.html> for details.




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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:32:10 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Re: slow cool/evap rates

> After boiling, transfer the still hot wort to a Pyrex carboy. Take a
> sanitized balloon (or condom) and fill it with a suitable amount of pure
> oxygen. Attach this balloon to the top of the carboy so that it will have
> some sanitary oxygen to suck in as the cooling wort contracts. This should
> also serve to oxygenate the wort. When the wort has cooled sufficiently,
> the balloon is removed and the yeast pitched into what should be a
> completely sanitary (sterile?) environment. The cold break will be in the
> carboy using this method, but it would also be there if using a CF chiller.

You will find that that the quantity of cold break in the slow cool 
method will be much lower than if a CF or Immersion chiller were 
employed.  I also would avoid the oxygen idea with very hot wort.  
You also could not get enought O2 into solution to satisfy the yeast 
requirements.  Stick with the CF chiller.

> O.G. after boil: 1.066 (five gallons)
> Gravity of the boil: 1.047 (seven gallons)

Boiling from 7 gals down to 5 gals is an evaporation rate of 29%!!  
Usual targets are 7-15% per hour, so the max I would aim for with a 
90 min boil is 20% evap.  I bet this could have an impact on final 
IBU numbers.

Prost!

Jim Busch


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:53:56 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Grains of Paradise, ginger wit

"Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>  wrote:
>I recently came across a homebrew supplier on the
>internet that is advertising something called "paradise seeds" for
>Belgian brewing, indicating that they lend a spicy, peppery flavor.
>Anybody have any idea what these are?  I dug around for some info on
>them, and came up with conflicting references to paprika and cardamom,
>amongst other things.  Any thoughts would be appreciated,

This is a spice more commonly called "grains of paradise."  I've also seen
it called black cardamom and Guinea grains.  It originated in Africa, is
related to cardamom (of Asian origin), and both are in the ginger family,
_Zingiberaceae_. The scientific name is _Aframomom melagueta_.  It has an
aromatic, peppery aroma.  I have used it sparingly (3 grams in 7-1/2
gallons) in my ginger wit http://hbd.org/brewery/cm3/recs/09_85.html and
felt it gave a bit of additional complexity that was lacking when I left it
out, but it wasn't at all essential.

By the way, with warm weather approaching, let me encourage brewers to
consider brewing ginger wit, a great, refreshing summer beer.  This is a
traditional witbier recipe with the substitution of fresh ginger for orange
peel and lactic acid.  It gives a bit of the bite that the lactic acid
might, and the ginger is very refreshing.  It is popular with beer drinkers
and those who prefer a cooler-type drink.  The spice bill for *7.5 gallons*
is:
	3.2 oz peeled fresh ginger, pureed
       	1 oz. freshly ground coriander
      	 5 g. freshly ground cardamom
       	3 g. freshly ground grain of paradise

Check the web page for the full recipe.  If you can't get soft, white
winter wheat, soft red will do.  This beer evolves amazingly over months
and years.  At some points, the ginger predominates, at others the
cardomom.  Not too long ago here, someone claimed that wits don't age well,
and should be consumed in a few months.  Let me tell you, it ain't true, at
least with this one.  I just had a two year old one that was wonderfully
dry and complex.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: 21 Apr 1998 09:20:46 -0500
From: John E Carsten <John.E.Carsten at oklaosf.state.ok.us>
Subject: Re: Paradise Seeds

Mark Tomusiak wrote:

>Greetings all...I recently came across a homebrew supplier on the
>internet that is advertising something called "paradise seeds" for
>Belgian brewing, indicating that they lend a spicy, peppery flavor.
>Anybody have any idea what these are?  I dug around for some info on
>them, and came up with conflicting references to paprika and cardamom,
>amongst other things.  Any thoughts would be appreciated, 

Now I wasn't following the white beer thread too closely a week or so ago ...
but could this be the "unknown" spicy ingredient we were looking for in
Hoegaarden (sp.)?


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 07:38:23 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Tinseth hop calculations

     
     
     >I have a question for anyone who uses Tinseth's hop calculations. I 
     >emailed this message to Glenn Tinseth himself, but have not yet 
     >received a reply.
     >
     >I'm a beta tester for a new brewing program which incorporates 
     >Tinseth's formula. I contend that, based on the information on 
     >Glenn's website, the program uses his formula incorrectly. The 
     >calculators on Tinseth's website agree with the program's results 
     >_if_ the gravity you use is the original gravity, i.e. post-boil 
     >gravity.
     >
     >It seems to me that Tinseth's calculators are in fact asking for the 
     >pre-boil gravity. His CGI calculator asks for "Boil wort gravity 
     >(specific gravity)" and the javascript one asks for "Wort Specific 
     >Gravity (during the boil)" (see http://realbeer/hops). Obviously this 
     >will make a major difference in the calculations.
     >
     >Here's an IPA example that I gave to the author of the program. I use 
     >a propane cooker and easily boil off 1.5-2 gallons in an hour:
     >
     >O.G. after boil: 1.066 (five gallons)
     >Gravity of the boil: 1.047 (seven gallons)
     >Hop additions: Centennial 10.5% AA: 2.5 oz--60 minutes, .5 oz--10 
     >minutes;
     >Cascade 3.5% AA: 1 oz--10 minutes, 1 oz--knockout
     >
     >IBUs using 1.066 as gravity: 88 IBU (the program and Tinseth's 
     >calculators agree)
     >IBUs using 1.047 as gravity: 104 IBU
     >
     >Any thoughts?
     >  Matt
     
     I believe Tinseth's IBU calculations come out correctly if you use the 
     actual 'best estimation' gravity of the boil.  In your example above, 
     I'd recommend starting with the average boil gravity.  For example, 
     try using 1.056, which is the average of the gravities for the pre- 
     and post-boil volumes.  This is the most commonly used technique.  If 
     Tinseth's web app or the program you are testing disagrees with the 
     results of finding the IBUs with this average gravity, then it's 
     probably worth talking to the appropriate author about it to get more 
     info on his/her assumptions.  You can also use Glenn's web page info 
     to calculate the IBU's by hand, and would probably find most of your 
     answers right there.
     
     Good luck and keep brewin'!
     Brian



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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:40:26 -0500
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Re: Briess Pale Ale Malt


Andrew Wrote:



>What I am curious about is the
>Briess pale *ale* malt, which wasn't available the last time (years ago)
>I bought domestic malts.  How does this malt compare to Marris Otter and
>other UK pale ale malts in terms of modification, yeild, ease of mashing
>and, most importantly, flavor?  

I have been using the Briess Pale Ale Malt for about a year now and I have
been incredibly pleased with all of the beers I have made with it. 

I am a big Marris Otter lover but have found over the last two years Marris
Otter has been really sending some poorly malted barley to us in the states.
I need consistancy with a malt and they can't seem to do that as of late. I
also like DeWolf Cousins but feel that their prices are way too high and it
is very eratic as to its malting quality and extraction rates. 

The Briess Pale Ale 2 Row is very consistant in my eyes. I have averaged 84%
extraction with it and have had no problems getting a good extraction with
the few single step mashes I have done (I mostly step mash). The color and
flavor of the malt are both excellent in my eyes. 

I have switched to this the Briess Pale Ale for all my ales and will
continue to use it as a primary base malt until they screw it up  or there
is a better more consistant malt out there. I feel that finally American
Maltsters have achieved the quality they were lacking before. I am sold!

 -Scott Abene





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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 07:55:09 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: One last Idophor question

     
     Hans asks about rinsing an Idophor sanitized fermenter, and wonders 
     about how much Idophor is necessary for sanitizing the _water_.  I 
     assume he is intending to rinse the fermenter with sanitized water.
     
     Anyway, I wanted to make a comment about Idophor first, then I'll 
     answer (TTBOMK) Hans' question about the water.  First, if nobody 
     warned you about the "Idophor Film" issue, then I will.  You'll notice 
     that when filling something like a carboy with an Idophor solution, 
     that a layer of bubbles forms in the neck of the carboy.  And the 
     bubbles tend to turn into some kind of a film that floats.  It doesn't 
     seem to hurt anything, but some people would prefer a clean, no film, 
     solution so they don't have to wonder about it.  Also, if you use 
     Idophor solution to sanitize bottles, then let them drip dry, you'll 
     see this 'film stuff' float to the top of the beer while you are 
     bottling.  The film tends to stick to the side of your filler and then 
     slides off.  I use a big pot to catch the drips, so after awhile I see 
     quite a few chunks of this 'film stuff' (whatever it really is) 
     floating around the bottom of the pot.  Again, it doesn't seem to hurt 
     anything, e.g. no infections, fermentations and carbonation all works 
     just fine.
     
     Now about the water.  It doesn't matter what you are sanitizing, the 
     required concentration is the same.  Using a weaker solution because 
     you are using 'clean' city water is probably no better than just using 
     plain city water.  Which by the way, is not a bad idea (got my flame 
     retardent clothing on today).  Here's what I do: sanitize everything 
     (well) with an Idophor solution.  I like it because I can _see_ it and 
     it doesn't bleach my jeans when I spill.  Then I rinse fermenters or 
     bottles with hot city water right before using them.  The reasoning is 
     that the various tubes and utensils that get sanitized don't seem to 
     add the 'film' to anything, so I leave them alone.  For the fermenter, 
     I figure the sanitizing is going to kill any infections residing in 
     the thing.  City water should have little to no infections in it.  I 
     use a good sized starter (minimum 1 quart) and depend on the ability 
     of the yeast to overwhelm any infections that may have come from the 
     city water.  This I believe, is a very fair assumption.  For the 
     bottles, I assume that the beer itself can do the same thing.  That 
     is, the Idophor solution leaves the bottles as sanitary as we can 
     expect at home, and the city water rinse (followed by a drip dry on a 
     bottle tree) is very unlikely to add any significant infection.  Given 
     that nothing serious can grow in beer, it follows that putting beer 
     into the just rinsed bottles is fine too.  
     
     Brian
     
     PS: Some people will argue that rinsing with city water is not a good 
     idea.  If you still have concerns, either just let the Idophor drip 
     dry (as recommended by the manufacturer), or do a rinse with a weak 
     chlorine solution and let your stuff drip dry.  I figure the city 
     water _is_ a weak chlorine solution and provides enough protection!



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Date: 21 Apr 1998 09:51:45 -0600
From: "Andrew Avis" <Andrew.Avis.0519423 at nt.com>
Subject: Pizza pan false bottom

Greetings brewers,

I asked this question on RCB and got a mixed response.  I also searched 
the HBD archives to no avail.  I recently purchased an Ecko pizza pan to 
use as a false bottom in a keg.  This particular pizza pan has dozens of 
holes already drilled in it.  I'm planning to drill several dozen more.  
The existing holes are just under 1/8", which when I compare it to my 
phil's phalse bottom, seem a bit large.  The phil's seems to have holes 
in the 1/16" range.  

Is 1/8" too large?  Will I have trouble clearing my runoff?  Has anyone 
out there used this type of pizza pan successfully?

Many thanks in advance,

Andrew Avis

PS - Although I have never brewed with cat puke, I have inadvertently 
included clumps of cat fur in my mash with no ill effect (more of it 
might actually work like rice hulls).  My dog has licked the inside of 
the mashtun while I wasn't looking.  My best beer had a spaghetti squash 
drop into the kettle.  Cheers to interesting ingredients! 


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Date: 21 Apr 1998 12:26:36 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: Condom Oxygenators


HBD-
John queried:

"After boiling, transfer the still hot wort to a Pyrex carboy. Take a
sanitized balloon (or condom) and fill it with a suitable amount of pure
oxygen. Attach this balloon to the top of the carboy so that it will have
some sanitary oxygen to suck in as the cooling wort contracts. This should
also serve to oxygenate the wort. When the wort has cooled sufficiently,
After boiling, transfer the still hot wort to a Pyrex carboy. Take a
sanitized balloon (or condom) and fill it with a suitable amount of pure
oxygen. Attach this balloon to the top of the carboy so that it will have
some sanitary oxygen to suck in as the cooling wort contracts. This should
also serve to oxygenate the wort."



John (and whomever else might want to try this)-

Before you try your condom oxygen balloon for wort oxygenation, you better
make sure of one of two things:

Either use non-lubricated condoms, or

Make sure of the composition of the lubricant.

You don't want to introduce pure oxygen to oils.  A most disturbing explosion
will result, throwing glass, hot wort, fireballs and bits of slippery condoms
in every direction.

"Honest Doc- I just fell on it"

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Safety Division
Kentwood, MI


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:18:51 -0700
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Re: paradise seeds

Thanks to all who responded to my questions about paradise seeds.  Here
is a reply that came from F.H. Steinbart (supplier of Belgian brewing
ingredients, no affiliation, yada yada (sp?)) that I thought others
might find interesting:

> -
> > Dear Mark,
> > 
> > As a wholesaler/manufacturer of the Brewer's Garden line of herb and
> > specialty Belgian sugars, I would probably be the one that your
> question
> on
> > the Brewer's Digest would default to.
> > 
> > Paradise seeds are also called grains of paradise.  Their technical
> name
> is
> > Aframomum Melegueta.  It has been used as a pepper substitute
> historically,
> > but is closer to the cardamom seed in taste than it is to pepper.
> To
> > describe it accurately, I would have to say it is "earthy" like when
> you
> go
> > hiking in a pine forest and you smell the wet earth with a pine
> note. 
> The
> > plant originates in West Africa and has found its way into some
> specialty
> > belgian beers and even ginger ale.  It is not well known nor even
> widely
> > used.  It is used by some select brewers in Belgium to achieve
> unique
> > flavors for their beers, but no one will divulge who uses it where.
> They
> > are a secretive lot.  I do have a very old recipe that I will offer
> below. 
> > I do not vouch for its flavor as I have not tried it.  It was passed
> to
> me
> > by a Belgian herb supplier to breweries who found it in an old
> brewing
> > book:
> > 
> > (adjusted for a 5 gal batch done in extract)
> > 
> > 8 lbs pale extract
> > 2 lbs amber extract
> > 1.5 oz hops
> > 1/4 oz licorice root
> > 2 oz molasses
> > 1.5 gram (.06 oz) paradise seeds
> > 
> > 
> > Fred Czuba
> > Wholesale Manager
> > Steinbart Wholesale
> 
I think I might try using a bit of this in my elusive quest to create a
Saison Dupont clone - sounds like it might lend some appropriate
flavors.

Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:50:49 EDT
From: Seelsorge <Seelsorge at aol.com>
Subject: What are "green flavors"?

Greetings from a novice (who is sampling bottles of his first batch every few
days in order to keeps tabs on developing flavors),

I've heard the term "green" beer and "green flavors," and was wondering
whether those refer to anything more than the "newness" of a brew.  In tasting
my beer after only two days in the bottle, I detected a strong hops flavor
strongly reminiscent of putting a hops pellet in my mouth.  To me, it was a
"fresh," "raw," "green" taste.  Is this what "green flavors" refers to?  Will
this mellow out or blend over time?  ( I used half an oz. Columbus hops in a
50 minute boil)  Also, can anyone direct me to some reading material
explaining what flavor developments occur during bottle conditioning?

Thanks,

Rick Sawyer


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:52:22 EDT
From: AlannnnT <AlannnnT at aol.com>
Subject: cat puke samples

I am lucky enough to have tasted a few of Jim Bentson's homebrews. I have even
begged a recipe or two, since his beers are always very good to exceptional. 
But I just wanted to go on record here, Jim. You don't have to bring a sample
of Hair Ball Ale next time you visit, I won't feel slighted.


Alan Talman   

CAT -- The other white meat


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:21:53 EDT
From: JPullum127 <JPullum127 at aol.com>
Subject: new hydrometer

I am looking for a different starting hydrometer. we have the standard 11 inch
with graduations from .990 to 1160. what we are looking for is a larger one
with larger spaces between the graduations. we rarely brew anything over 1.070
so less scale would be ok. thanks             jaipur brewery ,omaha


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:55:53 -0700
From: "Dr. Dwight A Erickson" <colvillechiro at plix.com>
Subject: To top off or not to top off that is the ?

Some books say to top off the carboy after "blow off". Some say not
to, some don't say. Some recipes are the same way...
so, after "blow off" and the loss of a quart or so of fermenting wort,
should I top it off or not ?
 
 



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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:53:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jon Sandlin <sandlinj at ucs.orst.edu>
Subject: kiln

	I have been doing some reading on malting grains.  It seems like a
fairly easy process.  I do have one question though; what is a kiln and
how do I make/purchase one?  Private e-mail is okay.




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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:02:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Aaron A Sepanski <sepan001 at uwp.edu>
Subject: Re: Yakima Goldings


Yakima Goldings refers to where they are grown, Yakima valley.  I am sure
that the broker that sold them was the Yakima chief.  They are not Kent
Goldings, they are US Goldings.  There is a difference.  Many "hop
experts" will tell you.  The biggest difference I have noticed, (with the
US varieties from the Yakima chief) is that their noble strains tend to
run high in alpha.  This disrupts the flavor profile of many styles of
beer, for one our pilsner.  It tends to have a more clinging bitterness,
and you can't derive as much hop character because of the alpha
adjustment.

Hope this sheds some light on the subject.

Take care,

Aaron Sepanski
Brewmaster's Pub



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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:10:23 -0400
From: Brad Johnson <bjohnson at berkshire.net>
Subject: Briess 2 row pale

Andrew Henckler asks about experience w/ Briess 2 row pale malt. I have 
been using this malt as my base malt extensively this winter in American 
style pale ales. (I get a 50# sack for $25, courtesy of a friend who 
drives past a supplier on his work commute - thanks James!) I find it 
well suited to single-temp infusion. I get about a 75% yield, and that 
is without a satisfactory mash-out, which I am still working on. I use 
it for about 80% of the grain bill in an IPA that has been very well 
received in competition; in a maltier amber I made it gave a very nice 
full malty flavor, again w/ a single-temp infusion. I expect to continue 
to use it in these styles.

Brad Johnson 
Berkshire BroadArrow Brewery
Bjohnson at berkshire.net



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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:26:34 -0500
From: Steve <steves at ro.com>
Subject: Cold Break Question

John Bowerman <jbowerma at kfalls.net> wrote:

> I get tremendous cold break, and usually lose about a half-gallon to a gallon
> of wort in the kettle in order to leave it behind.  No amount of whirlpooling
> seems to concentrates it.  Because loose hops plug the drain in my kettle, I
> use a hop bag, so the idea of using hops as a filter bed doesn't work.

> The break is extremely fine and short of using a sediment style filter, I
> haven't been able to come up with a solution.  I'd appreciate any thoughts,
> comments, and hairballs anyone has.

> John Bowerman
> Klamath Falls, OR


I've had this experience when using an extract kit from a supplier who adds
Irish Moss to the boil hops. This break stuff is so fine that it won't drop
at all. I've even taken the 3/4 gallon of slurry (for want of a better
expression) and let it sit in a one gallon extract bucket for two days
without it clearing more than 1/4 inch from the surface. Based on previous
posts, I'm going to try using a stainless steel mesh (scavenged from a
reinforced hot water hose) over a perforated copper tube. Previous attempts
with the ChoreBoy over the  end of the racking tube and pouring the dregs
into a filtered funnel have been unsuccessful.

I think that when I go to all grain, that leaving wort in the kettle won't
bother me as much as with these (relatively) expensive extract kits.

Steve Stripling





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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: re:yakima goldings

These hops are in fact east kent golding rootstock transplanted to the
Yakima valley. There is a significant difference between the two (EKG vs.
Yakima Golding). Yakima, in my opinion, is more citrusy. East Kent has much
more resiny, candy-like qualities (EKG is great for dryhopping a british
ale!). I would say that Yakima Goldings is somewhere between an EKG and a
Cascade. It seems that alot of the hops from the yakima region share the
citrusy quality. Don't know why. Perhaps it's just a figment of my
imagination.

Yakima Golding is a decent hop in its own right. If you want a substitute
for EKGs, though, Styrian Golding would be closer. Some nice writing on
hops and their sensory evaluation can be found in the following books:
Homebrewing Vol.1, Al Korzonas; Using Hops, Mark Garetz; Zymurgy Special
Issue 1997; and on the web at www.hopunion.com

Hoppy reading!

Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew




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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:54:57 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject:  Too Hot!

Shawn writes:

I use a cajun cooker(180,000 BTU), and this thing will really boil away
some wort!

Yes, I use one too and am having a hard time regulating the boil. I have
heard that you should shoot to boil off about 10% of the wort in a 90 min.
boil. I have boiled off as much as 40%!!! I know this is way too much but
would like to know how others are regulating their boils. How do you know
how hot your cooker is cooking? My cookers have a very low budget regulator
on them and a airflow(?) regulator on the cooker itself. How should I
control these accurately?

Advise about this would be appreciated. Personal email is fine!

Thanks.


Troy A. Hager
2385 Trousdale Drive.
Burlingame,  CA  94010
259-3850




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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:41:47 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Bugs inside cooler

Rich,

Yes, I have had both problems. I have a 7 gallon Rubbermaid (Gott) and mine
has warped a bit in the inside. I too used to use a stopper and tube set up
until one day I was fiddling around with it during the mash and pushed the
stopper into the hot mash! Hot wort and grain gushed out and of course made
its way in between the walls of the cooler and spoiled inside and smelled
absolutely horrible.

I was very upset and drilled a small hole in the bottom and poured straight
bleach in and let it sit for a few days and then rinsed with hot water. It
was a pain trying to get all the water in and out  but at least in doesn't
smell rotten any more!

My solution was to hook up a brass ball valve with a 1/2" nipple (fits
perfectly), into a tee and then into my slotted copper manifold. I sealed
the inside by getting some thick rubber gasket-making material from the
hardware/plumbing store and made a gasket to seal around the tee inside.
For the outside I fashioned a thick plastic washer out of PVC for the ball
valve to rest against and it works like a charm!

I suggests doing something like this because someday you are going to push
that stopper in like I did and burn your hand as well as infect the inside
of your cooler.

Troy A. Hager
2385 Trousdale Drive.
Burlingame,  CA  94010
259-3850




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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:03:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Yeah... I've got milk... and references!

Dave writes:
>AlK incorrectly states that milk stout has to have
>milk sugar in it.
>
>Michael J. Lewis in "Stout" Classic Beer series says:
>
>p 50  "Milk Stouts might contain some small percentage of
>lactose (milk sugar) but not necessarily."

This isn't the first time I've disagreed with Lewis and I'm
sure it won't be the last.  If sweet stout is not made with
unfermentable sugar, then it must be pasteurised or sterile
filtered and then sweetened with simpler sugars.  Certainly
this is not a traditional way of making beer and most of us
homebrewers shudder when someone suggests pasteurisation or
sterile filtration as a step in making a beer.

>The connection between milk and health was used by
>purveyors to imply healthfulness and richness in alcoholic
>beverages.  ala Bristol Milk Sherry and Bristol Cream Sherry.

Whatever, but the source of the "milk" association with the
beer is that milk sugar was used to sweeten the beer.  That
is well-established.  Reading directly from a 1910 label
of Mackeson's Milk Stout: "Each pint contains the energising
carbohydrates of ten ounces of pure dairy milk."

That's "lactose" to you and me, Dave...

>Lewis says on page 27:  "Milk and Cream Stouts  arose
>perhaps as a means of boosting the already implied
>healthful properties of stout by adding milk products such
>as lactose or whey or (in  one patent) concentrated
>peptonized (partially hydrolysed) milk."

If you taste Mackeson's XXX today, I assure you that a bottled
beer like this cannot be homebrewed without at least 1 pound
of lactose per 5 gallon batch (and it could be 2 pounds)...
I used but 8 ounces and it was only about 1/4 to 1/2 as sweet
as Mackeson's (luckily... I don't really like overly sweet stout).

 ...regardless of what the marketing suits or patents say.

>I was surprised to learn that AlK had a milk stout 5 years ago
>in Britain, since I thought the name had been made illegal.
>Perhaps I confused the US laws with the British laws.
>Or perhaps this was served in a pub and not in a bottle in
>commerce?

Ahh... therein is the problem.  It wasn't in Britain... it was
on a ship in the Caribbean.  I did not get to keep the bottle
so I don't know if it was brewed under contract in the Caribbean
or whether it was brewed in England and labeled this way for
export only.  Jackson and Protz confirm that the use of "Milk"
on the label was made illegal in Britain in the 1960's.  Sounds
about as stupid as the gov't officials here in Illinois that allow
half-filled gasoline tanker cars to drive 70 miles an hour on
Chicago highways, yet won't allow a train carrying napalm through.
Or those senators that think they can justify a 10-round limit
on rifle clips because the kids used a 15-round clip.  I'm sure
they would not have shot those kids and teacher if they only had
10-round clips...  we sure have the stupidest, most gutless government
money can buy.

So, Dave is right about the "milk" law.  However, if you believe Lewis,
only a small amount of lactose is used in sweet stouts.  I tend to
believe my tastebuds, Jackson (New World Guide p.171, where he says that
lactose is used in the kettle and at bottling and the beer is NOT
pasteurised or filtered) and Protz (Ale Trail p.247-248, where he says
that Mackeson's contains about 9% lactose -- he also notes here and on
page 112 of Classic Stout and Porter, that although the beer has an OG
of 1.042, it ferments down to only 3% abv... a testament to the amount
of gravity imparted by the unfermentable lactose).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:32:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: proteins and body/decoctions

Jim writes:
>Hans also asks about thin beers and mentions extracts and degree of
>attenuation.  A beers body is not really predicated on degree of
>attenuation so much as protein spectrum.  A recent article by Dr
>Narziss in Brauwelt indicates that beers of very high apparent degree
>of attenuation (ADA in the 83-84%, which is very high indeed) do not
>suffer from a loss of body.  The key is the percentage of high
>molecular weight nitrogenous fractions over 10,000 Mol Weight should
>be kept in the 20-22% range of total nitrogen fractions.  Narziss
<snip>
>the finished beer.  Once again, Narziss agrees that rests in the
>45-55C range should be minimized as the resultant beers display an
>"empty, harsh beer which lacks liveliness".

Either Narziss has been reading Fix or great minds think alike.  Fix
has posted on this topic several times over the last 8+ years and I
believe the very first post to HBD which featured Dr. Fix's comments
was when I quoted (with permission) a private correspondence with
him on this very subject, back around 1989.  Fix calls beers made
with extended 50C rests "insipid."

>As for ADA and full
>bodied beers, I once again note that Bavarian Maerzens are highly
>attenuated but also have very high degree of malt fullness and body.
>German Altbiers are another good example.

I'm not convinced that Duesseldorfer Altbiers are indeed very well
attenuated... my tastebuds indicate otherwise, especially with Zum
Uerige.  Yes, I've seen Piendl's data, but remember that his lab was
at Weihenstephan and Zum Uerige is:

1. pretty far away in Duesseldorf,
2. unpasteurised,
3. served from casks by gravity, like cask-conditioned real ale, and
4. the bottling line is not 100% sanitary (half-liter swing-top bottles
closed *by hand*).

I contend that the most traditional Altbiers from Duesseldorf may have
attenuated further on the way to Munich to be tested.  (Just my little
theory.)

>Speaking of decoction, did anyone else catch the article in American
>Brewer by Dr Lewis where he claims that decoctions have no effect on
>the finished beer??!  I can see an argument whereby decoctions impart
>more astringency, or increase haze, or decrease bottle stability or
>increase mash yields or darken wort color or lend melanoidens to the
>beer but to claim that there is no effect is mindboggling to me.
>But hey, Im not a doctor just a rocket scientist.   ;-}

I told you it wouldn't be the last time...  I'm with you Jim (although
I'm not even a rocket scientist).  I feel that Dr. Lewis may be a
brilliant researcher and know an awful lot about brewing, but I suspect
his views tend to get clouded by his megabrewer-centric biases.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:33:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Paradise

Mark writes:
>I recently came across a homebrew supplier on the
>internet that is advertising something called "paradise seeds" for
>Belgian brewing, indicating that they lend a spicy, peppery flavor.
>Anybody have any idea what these are?

They are commonly called "Grains of Paradise."

Al.


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