---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Used Keg Guy (Kyle Druey)
  DOMINION CUP COMPETITION (SJarr93801)
  Free vacuum/Europe beer gather (smurman)
  Kansas City Brewpubs ("Buchanan, Robert")
  foundation water (John_E_Schnupp)
  Tinseth's IBU calculation (Fred Johnson)
  Styrian Golding, ("David R. Burley")
  Too hot! (Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii)
  Clear Wave (Harold L Bush)
  Protein rests at Redhook/M. Lewis and mega-centric attitudes (George_De_Piro)
  Barley farming / Stein beer report (George_De_Piro)
  Dr. Lewis Article in American Brewer (Pat Anderson)
  Braggot Recipe ("Timothy Green")
  city water; pizza pan; topping off; grains of paradise (Samuel Mize)
  pizza pan hole size (Domenick Venezia)
  Raspberry Wheat (Al Korzonas)
  Maris Otter/lot numbers (Al Korzonas)
  Re: High water pH. ("Desert Winds Homebrewery and Meadery, Albuquerque NM.USA")
  Full volume boils on an electric stove? (Bill Goodman)
  RE:Briess Pale Ale Malt ("Desert Winds Homebrewery and Meadery, Albuquerque NM.USA")
  Evaporation rates ("Mercer, David")
  Condom oxygenators (Rick Olivo)
  Keg leakage ("Anton Verhulst")
  Grains of Paradise? (Wade Hutchison)
  Tinseth "Boil Gravity" (Troy Hager)
  CV Steam(cont.) & pH probes (Jim Bentson)
  aging (Kelly Jones)
  Q: corny keg handle repair (Paul Kensler)
  Hydrometers and refractometers (Harlan Bauer)


JudgeNet is under repair and will return online May 1.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:35:50 -0700
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Used Keg Guy

A few weeks ago an HBDer posted some info on some used kegs he was
offering.  I was interested in the $25 5 gal ball lock keg that had new
gaskets and was cleaned inside and out.  I stupidly forgot to bookmark
the website that gave the details, so please send me an email with the
URL, thanks.  A search of the archives was to no avail.  As a result of
a new and improved employment situation I have decided to reward myself
with some new beer toys with the $$$ I received for my unused vacation
time.  Also, I am looking for a 240V 15 amp controller to regulate the
output to a 3500W 240V heating element.  Any ideas?

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:44:18 EDT
From: SJarr93801 <SJarr93801 at aol.com>
Subject: DOMINION CUP COMPETITION

The James River Homebrewers are sponsoring the
6th Annual Dominion Cup Homebrew Competition on May 16, 1998, in Richmond, VA.
Entries are now being accepted through May 9, 1998.  

Send me your snail mail address and I'll fire out an entry packet to you.  Our
mission is to provide each entry with constructive feedback from our pool of
BJCP judges.

Judging will be conducted adjacent to the River City Beer Festival site in the
Farmer's Market, with the winners being announced on stage that evening.  Come
join us in a toast to the winners and spend a most pleasurable day in the
Bottom.  

We still have openings for a couple more BJCP program judges.  If you are
interested, email me with a phone number and snail mail address so that I can
confirm your registration.

                                      Steve Jarrett 


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:48:20 -0700
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: Free vacuum/Europe beer gather


First,  I have a free Shop Vac wet/dry vac if anyone wants to come pick
it up.   I live in the South Bay area (S.F.).  It works fine, etc., just
needs to have it's diaper cleaned.  I live in an apartment and don't
have room for 3/4 the crap I have already.  Drop me a line if you want
it.

I will also be in Europe for a month this summer for World Cup and
to bop around.  I'll be in London for about 3 days, France for about
a week or so, then Switzerland and Vienna for a week, and finally
Spain for a week.  I would love to hop over to Belgium for some
brew geek tours, but doubt I'll have the time.

What I'm thinking of doing is periodically mailing CARE packages
back home to myself.  Taking a shipping box and some packing foam
into a grocery store, loading it with local brews, cheeses, etc., and
mailing them back to myself or (trusted) friends.  Does this seem
possible/reasonable and can anyone give me some pointers on beers
to look out for.  I don't want to come back with the Austrian equivalent
of Budweiser.

I'm also a yeast rancher, but honestly I can't see the need to bother
with this particular facet of the hobby while I'm over there.  It 
seems that whenever I want a strain I can either get it from Wyeast
or the local Beer Megastore.  Heck, Widmer now even serves fresh Zum
Uerige yeast.  Am I missing the boat on this one?  Should I consider
taking some small steriles viles with me?

Private email would probably be best on these, unless you feel you've
got info the rest would be interested in.

SM (ole, ole, ole, ole)


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:19:31 -0400
From: "Buchanan, Robert" <RBuchanan at ChristianaCare.org>
Subject: Kansas City Brewpubs

I wll be travelling to Kansas City next week and would like to sample
the Midwest's beers along with my Kansas City steaks.  Could anyone
recommend or suggest some brewpubs in KC ?
TIA and private E-Mail is fine. 

Bob Buchanan
Give a man a beer and he wastes an hour.
Teach a man to brew and he wastes a lifetime.



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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:39:14 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: foundation water

I'm getting ready to brew my first all grain batch.  I've
converted one of my favorite extract recipes so that I will
be able to compare results.  I used Suds to determine the
temp/volume of the strike water.

I have a false bottom in my Gott.  It requires about 1 gallon
of water to get to the screen.  The drain is about 1/4"
off the bottom so I won't have excessive wort left behind.
I know that this water needs to be in addition to that
calculated by Suds, but what about the temp?

I was doing to draw off 1 gallon of water at 155F and add
it as the foundation water (I think this is what I've heard
it called).  I will then continue heating the rest of
the water to the temp calculated by Suds.  Is this the
correct way to do it.  I figured that if the foundation
water was at the mash temp it would make it easier to hit
my target temp.  After the water is at the strike temp,
I'll mix in the grains.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200





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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:11:46 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Tinseth's IBU calculation

To add to the thread in which Brian Dixon and Matt (last name?) have posted
regarding Tinseth's IBU calculation formula on this web page:

I recently addressed these and related questions to Glen Tinseth directly
because there appears to be inconsistency even with Glen's use of the formula.
I found Glen's BrewCalc 1.1 spreadsheet, dated 1995, that uses the same formula
found on his web page but uses the POST-BOIL gravity in calculating the IBUs.
Yet on his web page he refers to using the AVERAGE gravity.  I agree that the
formula should be derived from average gravities of the boil during the time in
which the hops are present (which will be different at different addition
times);  however, the formula Tinseth created appears to be derived from
post-boil gravity data.  One would simply be introducing additional error into
the calculation by using the average gravities.

I asked Glen for the raw data, with the idea that the formulas could be reworked
to reflect the average  gravities during the hops boil time, but his reply was
that the data were obtained from a large variety of sources and essentially were
not available.

I believe there is still a significant amount of  fundamental work yet to be
done to produce formulas for predicting IBU levels in our brews.  I was hoping
to tweak Glen's formula from his own data but that doesn't seem possible unless
Glen can come up with the raw data, including pre- and post-boil volumes or
gravities.

How about it, Glen?  Can you plug in values for the theoretical average gravity
during the hop additions and come up with new formulas?  I'd love to give it a
try, but I suspect the data simply are strong enough to do this.  Like I said, I
think some basic work to improve the formula remains to be done.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina



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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:46:08 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Styrian Golding,

Brewsters:

Sean MIck says:

>Yakima Golding is a decent hop in its own right. If you
>want a substitute for EKGs (East Kent Goldings), though,
>Styrian Golding would be closer.

Styrian Golding is actually Fuggles.

Andy Walsh in his great article p60 Mar/Apr '98
in Brewing Techniques says:

"Recently published research tells a different story.  This
research shows that U.S. Tettnanger is in fact analyticaly
to English Fuggle as well as the similarly misnamed
Savinja Golding (also known as Styrian Golding)"
- --------------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:56:23 -0400
From: Nathan_L_Kanous_Ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Too hot!

Troy asks about how we homebrewers control our boil to avoid boiling off
40% of our wort during a 90 minute boil.  Well, Troy, I use the maligned
Superb Burner.  This is a great burner.  Yeah, it may take me a few more
minutes to boil 12 gallons of wort than with my Cajun Cooker.  The only use
I have for my Cajun Cooker (other than heating some sparge water) is to
strap it to the back of my vehicle to propel myself to the gas station.
The Superb allows for simple control of mash temperatures as well as
controlling how vigorous the boil is.  It's  economical on fuel as well.

nathan in Frankenmuth, MI




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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:55:03 -0400
From: Harold L Bush <harrybush at compuserve.com>
Subject: Clear Wave

For the past couple of years, I've been seeing a product called "Clear
Wave" being marketed (it has already made the run from the "Brookstone" 
to
"Damark" catalogs)  as an alternative to water softening, particularly
claiming to reduce mineral buildup in pipes.

>From what I can see from the picture, the Clear Wave installs around 
your
incoming water pipe and your house water passes through a magnetic field
(ac?, dc?, frequency?) before going to your faucet.

Since there are a number a water quality gurus on the Digest, I was
wondering if someone could shed some light on the subject.  What can this

device possibly do, other than stir up dissolved ions as they go through?
 

Could this help my beer? Could this hurt my beer?

I am one that usually discount devices such as this as total bullsh-t, 
but
after having heard (from a doctor) some positive testimony on those
magnet-containing belts for controlling back pain ("they actually can
provide some relief"), I'm willing to listen.

I did an HBD archive search on Clear Wave, but came up empty.  Have we 
not
discussed this before?

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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:04:47 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Protein rests at Redhook/M. Lewis and mega-centric attitudes

     Hi all,
     
     Scott Murman refers to a recent HBD that quotes the Redhook brewers as 
     saying that they use a 50C (122F) rest, then ramp up to 71C (160F) 
     when making their ESB.  They use domestic 2-row barley malt.  Scott 
     seems concerned that if they use a protein rest, it must be a good 
     thing.
     
     The Redhook post omits some important points:  the duration of the 50C 
     rest, the rate of temperature increase, and the quality of the 
     resulting beer.  Is Redhook ESB really a full, rich example of the 
     style, with excellent heading properties?
     
     Why is it that they should rest at such a high saccharification 
     temperature (71C)?  Are they shooting for less attenuation in the hope 
     of recovering some of the mouthfeel they lost during the 50C rest?
     
     While at Siebel I met 2 brewers who were confused about their beers, 
     which were thin bodied and headless.  They were doing a step mash to 
     "extract the most from the malt" and yet the beers weren't up to par.  
     By the end of the course it should have been clear to them that a 50C 
     protein rest has no place in a modern barley malt mash schedule.
     
     The frivolity of a 50C rest is hardly worth disputing (in a barley 
     malt brew).  Practical experience and modern literature agree that it 
     is not only a waste of brewhouse time, but it will result in a 
     lower-quality beer.
     --------------------------------------
     Jim Busch tells us how Dr. Lewis believes decoction mashing has NO 
     effect on beer character.  Dr. Lewis has also been known to say things 
     like all craft beer is infected, and that Guinness has a "massive hop 
     presence."  To believe that you can boil a third (or more) of your 
     mash and not have some impact (positive or negative) on the product is 
     pretty absurd.  It's sort of like saying that you could boil or bake a 
     chicken and get the same result!
     
     Al K. says that this attitude reflects Lewis' "megabrewer-centric" 
     thinking.  At Siebel most of the instructors were from megabreweries, 
     yet they still acknowledge that decoction mashing has an effect on the 
     product.  Paul Smith believes it is unnecessary, and may even be 
     potentially harmful to the final brew.  His colleague, Mike Babb, is a 
     proponent of the technique.  They are both from Coors, and both 
     studied in Germany.
     
     Brew for yourself and draw your own conclusions.  You will see a 
     difference, though!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:19:18 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Barley farming / Stein beer report

     Hi again all,
     
     I have obtained ~28 pounds of Harrington barley for my home malting 
     escapades.  While I was pondering home malting, a thought occurred to 
     me (uh-oh):  why not plant some of it, and in the fall make a beer 
     literally from scratch, using homegrown barley and hops?
     
     There is a problem with this idea, though:  the only reason I can grow 
     hops is that they are nearly indestructible!  How hardy is barley?  
     What kind of conditions does it thrive in?  How much area must be 
     planted (and at what density) to yield ~30 pounds of usable grain 
     (this is 2-row)?  How long does it take until it's ready to harvest?  
     How would one go about harvesting and deawning by hand (or is that 
     just a dumb idea)?
     
     Thanks in advance for any info.
     -----------------------------
     Since the queue is kind of short I figured I would report on my 
     Steinbier.  Some of you will remember that I brewed one back in 
     February.
     
     Well, it has no smoke character, nor is it particularly caramelly or 
     sweet, despite an outrageously low hop rate.  It does have a pretty 
     minerally finish, though, which accentuates the dryness and what 
     little hops are there.  A month ago it was undrinkably minerally, but 
     it was pretty well-received at a recent club meeting, so I guess it's 
     getting better.
     
     What I learned from this:  Don't lager the beer on the rocks for a 
     month!!!  After two weeks, the beer didn't taste much different than 
     before it was put on the rocks.  After a month, it tasted like a 
     quarry!  Live and learn...and sample the beer from the lagering tank 
     more often!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:57:41 -0700
From: Pat Anderson <pata at aa.net>
Subject: Dr. Lewis Article in American Brewer

>>Speaking of decoction, did anyone else catch the article in American
>>Brewer by Dr Lewis where he claims that decoctions have no effect on
>>the finished beer??!  I can see an argument whereby decoctions impart
>>more astringency, or increase haze, or decrease bottle stability or
>>increase mash yields or darken wort color or lend melanoidens to the
>>beer but to claim that there is no effect is mindboggling to me.
>>But hey, Im not a doctor just a rocket scientist.   ;-}

>I told you it wouldn't be the last time...  I'm with you Jim (although
>I'm not even a rocket scientist).  I feel that Dr. Lewis may be a
>brilliant researcher and know an awful lot about brewing, but I suspect
>his views tend to get clouded by his megabrewer-centric biases.

And I especially like the slam (to the effect that, I don't have it in front
of me to quote) that most home brewers and small commercial brewers only
have the vaguest notion of what an "experiment" is.  Of course, he may be
right about that, but this article did not describe his method or controls,
any quantified results, just that his students conduct and "experiment"
every year and none of them could tell the difference.  
\
And in the same issue, did you catch the article by Pierre Rajote, referring
to himself continually in the third person?

Oh, well, I read this mostly for the ads anyway.
- ---
Pat Anderson <pata at aa.net>



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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:23:15 -0400
From: "Timothy Green" <TimGreen at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Braggot Recipe

To the collective:

Does anybody out there have any experience with making Braggots?

I'm about to brew one using the following recipe:

6# Light LME
3# Amber LME
8# Raw (unprocessed) Honey
1.5# Crystal Malt - 40L
0.25# Chocolate Malt
8oz Dark Molasses
2 tsp Cinnamon
2oz Kent Goldings for 60 min
1oz Kent Goldings for 30 min
1oz Kent Goldings for 15 min
1 oz Kent Goldings for steep after boil 10 min
1 tsp Irish Moss for 15 min
22grms EDME Dry Ale Yeast

How does this look to all of you out there. 

Pease let me know what you think. Private email's OK.

I am proposing to brew this toward the end of next week.

Thanks.....

Tim




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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:25:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: city water; pizza pan; topping off; grains of paradise

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
> Subject: Re: One last Idophor question

>I figure the city 
>water _is_ a weak chlorine solution and provides enough protection!

Basically true, for me at least.  I'd just add two cautions.  First,
make sure your water source is chlorinated enough to be protected.
Second, make sure you get RID of the chlorine if it's enough to
affect your flavors.  A $10 faucet-end filter did it for me, and
I reckon the water is still sanitary enough to rinse with.

 - - - - -
> From: "Andrew Avis" <Andrew.Avis.0519423 at nt.com>
> Subject: Pizza pan false bottom
> 
> Greetings brewers,
> 
> I recently purchased an Ecko pizza pan to 
> use as a false bottom in a keg. ...
> The existing holes are just under 1/8" ...
> 
> Is 1/8" too large?  Will I have trouble clearing my runoff?  Has anyone 
> out there used this type of pizza pan successfully?

I'm answering from almost complete ignorance here, but that's never
stopped anyone on HBD before...

I wouldn't expect a big problem.  The grain bed itself does the
filtering.  That's why an Easymasher(tm) works -- Jack says the
strainer is only there to keep the nearby grains from dropping
out the spigot as the filter bed sets up.

 - - - - -
> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:55:53 -0700
> From: "Dr. Dwight A Erickson" <colvillechiro at plix.com>
> Subject: To top off or not to top off that is the ?

> so, after "blow off" and the loss of a quart or so of fermenting wort,
> should I top it off or not ?

It's a pretty universal consensus that you should avoid blow-off
tubes entirely.  Don't use a glass carboy at all for your primary
fermenter, use a plastic pail.

(Pat said he wanted more brewing-related posts -- if that doesn't
hot up a flame war, I don't know what will...  ;-)

Seriously, I don't know why you'd bother topping up a primary
fermenter.  It will be producing enough CO2 to keep most oxygen
out of the carboy (I know, gases diffuse, but during the primary
the CO2 generation creates a gas flow out of the carboy).

Once your fermentation has settled down, most people either just
bottle, or siphon to another carboy to get the beer off the trub
and dead yeast on the bottom of the primary fermenter.  At this
point, it makes sense to top up -- there is no longer a flow of
gas to keep oxygen out of the carboy.  Most people switch to an
airlock on their secondaries, although I would think a blow-off
would be just as good -- either one must be kept full of water.

For an exhaustingly complete discussion of glass carboys vs.
plastic buckets, search the HBD archives.  I'd tell you which
year to search in, if it made any difference...

 - - - - -
> Mark Tomusiak wrote:
> 
> >Greetings all...I recently came across a homebrew supplier on the
> >internet that is advertising something called "paradise seeds"

This is the dried carapace of a small dung beetle.  Add them into
the boil -- "dry-spicing" on't kill the intestinal parasites that
ride dormant on them.  Wash your hands thoroughly.

The supplier may claim that it's really a seed.  Don't believe
them.  I have the real info.

Trust no one.

The truth is out there.

The beer is in HERE.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:52:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: pizza pan hole size


In HBD 2694 Andrew.Avis.0519423 at nt.com asks:
>Is 1/8" too large?  Will I have trouble clearing my runoff?  Has anyone 
>out there used this type of pizza pan successfully?

I drilled my own pizza pan with 1/8" holes and it works fine.  Once the
grain bed establishes it still throws some chunks out the runoff but it's
minimal and the wort runs clear.  However, it's annoying and since I run
the sparge with a tubing clamp the occasional chunk plugs up the tubing.
I've learned to live with it, but I've always considered buying a frying
pan spatter guard to lay on top of my pizza pan.  They are a fine
stainless steel screen that one lays across the top of a frying pan to
prevent spatters across the stovetop.  

Cheers!

Domenick Venezia   demonick at zgi.antispam.com (remove .antispam)



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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:54:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Raspberry Wheat

Tom writes regarding Eric's Raspberry Wheat:
>With the Extracts from L.D. Carlson, you would use 1 bottle (4oz.) for a
>hint of flavor and 2 bottles for a full flavor.  For a raspberry wheat, 8
>oz. should be perfect.  Another note on those extracts, they contain no
>fermentables and can and should be added at bottling (kegging) time.
>Fermentation will diminish the delicate fruit aromas (CO2 scrubbing).

Very good advice.  Perhaps three years ago, I tried making fruit beers with
those L.D.Carlson fruit extracts and was unsuccessful.  By the time I got
enough fruit aroma/flavour, the beer began to be too bitter and tasted a
bit medicinal.  I spoke with Eric offline and he says that the extract
he used was red.  The raspberry extract I used three years ago was *clear*.
It appears that they have switched to a new supplier.  That's good news.
I still would be very careful with these "100% natural" fruit extracts
and first test them by adding a drop at a time to a glass of finished beer 
and see if you like your resuts.  If you don't... don't kill all 5 gallons!

>A reason for leaving the hot break behind is the protein will end up as
>chill haze in your finished beer, no big deal in a cloudy weizen.

Well, not exactly.  While a goodly portion of the break is indeed proteins
and proteins are half of the chillhaze formula, not all proteins are
created equal.  I recently made a Tripel in which the cold break looked
like a lava lamp!  The beer is crystal clear now.  Fermmenting on cold
(and hot) break will increase your higher alcohol production, however.

Finally, I know Tom didn't mean for it to sound this way, but his
last statement could be misinterpreted as though the cloudiness in a
Weizen is due to protein or chillhaze.  Wits are cloudy due to protein,
but Weizens are cloudy from stirred-up yeast.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:26:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Maris Otter/lot numbers

Lately, many people have been mis-using (and mis-spelling) "Maris Otter."
This is a barley *strain* and *MANY* maltsters make malt from it.  Marris [sic]
Otter couldn't send malt to the US any more than Klages or Harrington could
send malt to England.

If you are having trouble with a particular malt, please tell us the maltster
(Hugh Baird, Muntons, Crisp, Pauls, Beeston, Briess, Durst, Weyermann,
Schreier, Great Western Malting, DeWolf-Cosyns, Franco-Belges, etc.) and
include the lot number if you can.  Incidentally, 10 years ago, hops came
in sandwich bags and often did not have the %AA on the package.  Now, virtually
all are in oxygen-barrier bags and you sometimes even get the % beta acids.

If we all bug our retailers to put the lot number on the package of malt,
we could communicate bad lot numbers here and also we could know when we
are using the same lot or a new one.  It would also make it easier for us
to track down the data sheets or find our lots in website data sheets.

Get out there and ask for lot numbers!

Al.


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:46:59 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Desert Winds Homebrewery and Meadery, Albuquerque NM.USA" <chudson at unm.edu>
Subject: Re: High water pH.

Know lets not come down to hard on those of us who use Decoction
mashing.:) I apprenticed in Germany and decoction is still the main form
of mashing and they even use thermometers:). Sorry for the bit of leg
pulling but I am used to getting my self because 80% or so of the beer I
brew is done by one form or another of decoction. I have tried and I use
when I fill in at on of the local micros infusion mashing but IMNSHO. I
just plain like the taste. 
I have been on the list for about a year or so(except sporadicly at best) 
I am glad to see that there are many new people here and alot of the
oldtimers also. Good to be back!

Chuck Hudson
						Yes my son it is grain, 
						In which any fool can eat.
					       	But the Lord has a more
						Devine use in mind.
						Let us give Thanks to the
						Bounty and Praise to the 
						Beauty and learn about,
                                                         Beer.
						Friar Tuck. 

Ever notice that being a good boy
and being good at being a boy 
do not require the smae skills?
          Gene Hill.F&S Jan 1979.




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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:18:30 +0000
From: Bill Goodman <goodman at APWK01G1.nws.noaa.gov>
Subject: Full volume boils on an electric stove?

I have a few questions for anyone who's successfully done full volume
boils on an electric stove:

(1)  How do I achieve a rapid boil?  Does laying the pot across two
elements do the trick?

(2)  Would so-called "canning elements" (elements which are raised about
an inch off the stove top) help increase efficiency?  If so, where can I
find them, and what do they cost?

(3)  What should my start and finish volumes be for a 5 gallon batch?  I
can't imagine too much evaporation taking place in a 60-90 minute boil
on an electric stove, and want to end up with 5 gallons wort in the
fermenter after leaving trub and spent hops behind.

TIA...
- -- 
Bill Goodman
mailto:goodman at apwk01g1.nws.noaa.gov
General Sciences Corp.


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:50:59 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Desert Winds Homebrewery and Meadery, Albuquerque NM.USA" <chudson at unm.edu>
Subject: RE:Briess Pale Ale Malt

 
ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO (or aka ThE BrEwRaT) Wrote:
 
> I have been using the Briess Pale Ale Malt for about a year now and I have
> been incredibly pleased with all of the beers I have made with it. 
> 
> I am a big Marris Otter lover but have found over the last two years Marris
> Otter has been really sending some poorly malted barley to us in the states.
> I need consistancy with a malt and they can't seem to do that as of late. I
> also like DeWolf Cousins but feel that their prices are way too high and it
> is very eratic as to its malting quality and extraction rates. 
> 
> The Briess Pale Ale 2 Row is very consistant in my eyes. I have averaged 84%
> extraction with it and have had no problems getting a good extraction with
> the few single step mashes I have done (I mostly step mash). The color and
> flavor of the malt are both excellent in my eyes. 
> 
> I have switched to this the Briess Pale Ale for all my ales and will
> continue to use it as a primary base malt until they screw it up  or there
> is a better more consistant malt out there. I feel that finally American
> Maltsters have achieved the quality they were lacking before. I am sold!
> 
I to am sold on Briess pale ale malts I still like DWC products but as
Scott put it prices are way to high and extraction rates can be eractic. I
mostly use decoction mashing and have been pretty stable in wmat i get out
of DWC put for the extra 15-30% increase it is not worth it. I have used
Maris Otter while working in Europe and was not to thrilled with it's
performance then however the British brewers loved it and it does give a
great flavor.

Chuck Hudson

						Yes my son it is grain, 
						In which any fool can eat.
					       	But the Lord has a more
						Devine use in mind.
						Let us give Thanks to the
						Bounty and Praise to the 
						Beauty and learn about,
                                                         Beer.
						Friar Tuck. 

Ever notice that being a good boy
and being good at being a boy 
do not require the smae skills?
          Gene Hill.F&S 1979.




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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:10:48 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Evaporation rates

In HBD 2694, on a completely different subject, Jim Busch commented:

"Boiling from 7 gals down to 5 gals is an evaporation rate of 29%!!
Usual targets are 7-15% per hour, so the max I would aim for with a 90
min boil is 20% evap.  I bet this could have an impact on final IBU
numbers"

This has got me thinking about something that I have wondered about in
the past. My *70 min* boils always go from 7.5 gals to 5.5. I use a
cajun cooker - type propane burner. I keep the boil at what I would call
a gentle roll, but maybe my definition of gentle is off base. I don't
really have any complaints about my beer, but maybe I don't know what I
don't know. Why is a 27-29% evaporation rate bad? Is it just a matter of
brewing efficiency (i.e. losing too much wort) or is there an adverse
impact on flavor? (I don't notice any carmelization or burnt flavors in
any of my beers, and I figure my recipes have hopping rates that reflect
expectations from past brews that all had that 27% evaporation. So
whatever my final actual IBUs, in practice the beers generally come out
with the bitterness and hop flavor I was shooting for.) What's the
solution, if I was to try to fix a problem I'm not sure I have? Add
water throughout the boil to replace some of what's lost? Or boil at an
even gentler rate?

Dave in Seattle




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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:07:50 -0500
From: Rick Olivo <ashpress at win.bright.net>
Subject: Condom oxygenators

Erich Fouch wrote:

Before you try your condom oxygen balloon for wort oxygenation, you better
make sure of one of two things:

Either use non-lubricated condoms, or

Make sure of the composition of the lubricant.

Don't worry about exploding condoms. The lubricant is always water based.
Condoms, being made of latex, will rapidly fall apart upon contact with
petroleum-based lubricants, which is why manufactures advise against the
use of petroleum jelly when they are being applied for their intended
purpose. However, I am told the lubricants often taste terrible and this is
an excellent reason for using the unlubricated variety. However, even here,
they should be rinsed out as they are usually dusted with talc or corn
starch, neither of which you want in your beer. In addition, some varieties
of lubricated condoms are treated with nomoxidil-9, a spermacide. I don't
know that this would kill yeast, but it can't be good for it. 

Yours in Beer,
Strange Brewer aka Rick Olivo
ashpress at win.bright.net
Vitae sine cervesiae sugat!!!
"Life without beer sucks!!!"






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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:19:29 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Keg leakage


Re: recent discussion about keg leakage.

In cases where replacing O-rings and poppets fails to correct keg leakage,
remove the fitting from the keg and inspect the inside.  I had 2 kegs
where the fitting corroded right where the poppet seats against the fitting.
Apparently soda syrup is pretty acidic.  When I looked inside I could easily 
see where the fitting was pitted and this caused the poppet to not seal
properly.  Raplacing the fittings solved the problem.

Tony V.


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:55:28 -0400
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: Grains of Paradise?

Well, if they are selling "grains of paradise", then what they
have is a middle-eastern spice that most resembles a mild
form of pepper.  Middle-eastern grocery stores, and suppliers
for historical cooking buffs carry these fairly regularly.
	-----wade hutchison


>
>Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:55:27 -0700
>From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
>Subject: Paradise Seeds
>
>Greetings all...I recently came across a homebrew supplier on the
>internet that is advertising something called "paradise seeds" for
>Belgian brewing, indicating that they lend a spicy, peppery flavor.
>Anybody have any idea what these are?  I dug around for some info on
>them, and came up with conflicting references to paprika and cardamom,
>amongst other things.  Any thoughts would be appreciated, 
>
>Mark Tomusiak
>Boulder, Colorado

	


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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:38:09 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Tinseth "Boil Gravity"

Matt,

You wrote:

I have a question for anyone who uses Tinseth's hop calculations. I emailed
this message to Glenn Tinseth himself, but have not yet received a reply.

I'm a beta tester for a new brewing program which incorporates Tinseth's
formula. I contend that, based on the information on Glenn's website, the
program uses his formula incorrectly. The calculators on Tinseth's website
agree with the program's results _if_ the gravity you use is the original
gravity, i.e. post-boil gravity.

It seems to me that Tinseth's calculators are in fact asking for the pre-boil
gravity. His CGI calculator asks for "Boil wort gravity (specific gravity)" and
the javascript one asks for "Wort Specific Gravity (during the boil)" (see
http://realbeer/hops). Obviously this will make a major difference in the
calculations.

****************
I too use Tinseths calcs but run the numbers on my own. Have you read that
great article in the Hop special issue of Zymurgy? The author discusses
many different ways to estimate IBUs and standardizes them all into one
formula. It is excellent!

But... he does not define "Wort Specific Gravity" but says something like
"WSG as opposed to Original Gravity." Which has made me wonder... I have
done some calc. on the web through http://www.jrock.com/recipe_calc/ which
runs Tinseth's calcs (among others) and it calc a "boil gravity" amount
which, as far as I can tell, is the "average gravity of the boil." How I
understand it is if you start with 1.050 preboil and end with 1.060
postboil your average boil gravity would be 1.055. This does make the most
sense because we all know that gravity is a factor in utilization rate and
so would change as the gravity of the wort changes in the boil. I make
sense to use the average gravity of the boil to make the calculation.

I have been using this number in my calcs, but with out lab testing, who is
to know which is more acurate. In the Zymurgy article there is an example,
but as I remember it is difficult to tell if he used the OG for the "boil
gravity" factor. I agree with you that the difference is very big and we
need to figure out what is the most accurate number to use. I am involved
in the HBD Pale Ale Experiment and have run the Tinseth calcs using all of
the numbers for "boil gravity" (pre, average, and post) and it will be
interesting to see what the actual IBUs come out to be after the lab tests.
I think these will be run by Louis Bonham this summer. The results will be
posted on the net as well as written up in BT so we should be able to gain
some information on this issue through the experiment. You have definately
stumbled on a question I have been pondering for some time.

If Tinseth does reply I would like to know what he has to say on the matter.

*******************

Troy A. Hager
2385 Trousdale Drive.
Burlingame,  CA  94010
259-3850




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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:18:22 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at htp.net>
Subject: CV Steam(cont.) & pH probes

Hi all: Well my Cat Vomit Steam Beer story elicited so many e-mails to me
that I may have to start a CV Steam FAQ page. To go to the heart of most
questions. Yes this story really is true. However let me return to the
critical moment and expand slightly so that I don't appear  totally off the
wall. When it happened Sylvester was sitting on a ledge over the stove,
above the pot where I was oxygenating the starter  wort for the yeast.( Note
that O2 not CO2 was involved) When he threw up, most of the material hit the
back off my hand and only a small portion, including the hair ball actually
got into the wort. The food he had eaten was semi-moist, and mostly floated.
After removing everything with a spoon and then double filtering, the wort
looked clear and smelled normal. I was obviously tempted to throw it out but
I really did start to think, Wow this will be a beer to top all beers if I
can pull it off. So I went ahead and re-boiled and then tasted. I cook a lot
and have a fairly good sense of taste. I detected nothing other than sweet
malt so I decided- What the hell!

The beer was boiled extra vigourously and I used first wort hopping. The FWH
technique is great tasting coming out of the kettle. This was hopped to 45
IBU's and normally would be quite harsh in its bitterness. It is a very
smooth taste with FWH. IS IT MY SECRET INGREDIENTS OR FWH??? Only Sylvester
knows!!

After this incident I really started to worry about the reasons we see all
those horses in mega-brew beer ads and the pale yellow character of that
beer. I hope I am not infringing on some patented brew process in my recent
experimental work here!!

- -------

One thing that did happen during the brew session, is that my pH probe
failed during acidifying the sparge water. I have a Hanna 9025 portable
meter that I love. Expensive, but I beleive in getting good quality tools. I
contacted Hanna's excellent tech service dept. and got some interesting info
relative to measuring pH at high temp.It may answer some questions recently
raised.

1) The average life of a pH probe at 158 deg F is 4 weeks compared to 3
years at room temp. Strong recommendation to cool the wort to room temp.

2) The error introduced in the reading fromf a non-temperature-compenstated
probe would be as follows:

 if the pH was 4.01   at  60 deg F then  at  158deg F it would read 4.10. 

Since our enzymes live within a pH range quite a bit greater than this, the
error introduced by different temperatures is not significant. These numbers
are obviously dependent on the probe itself. This one is a gel filled double
junction probe.

Thus CHILL YOUR SAMPLES BEFORE pH MEASUREMENTS IF USING A PROBE. You will
extend its life a lot. Frequent cleaning in weak HCL ( Sylvester ! Time to
eat again!!) is recommended

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY



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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:29:32 -0700
From: Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: aging

Hans Aikema asks:

>I thought portwine taste is a sign of aging. But the beers weren't old.

I don't know that I would associate 'port' with 'old' or 'oxidized'. 
Port is a high alcohol beverage, so this can dominate the flavor
profile, but I don't associate this with age or oxidation.  You may be
thinking of Sherry, which is an altogether different beverage.  This
indeed is intentionally oxidized, and oxidized beers will sometimes be
reminscent of Sherry.

Kelly
Hillsboro, OR


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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:01:03 -0500
From: Paul Kensler <paul.kensler at ibm.net>
Subject: Q: corny keg handle repair

I recently won a used ball-lock corny keg at a club meeting raffle.  It has
one of those single-piece rubber handle / cap at the top (the kind where
you can stand it upside down), which is becoming separated from the
stainless steel.

Has anyone had success or failure trying to re-glue the handle to the keg?
I was thinking of using a semi-flexible all-purpose epoxy -- something that
would provide sort of a vacuum seal.  I wouldn't suppose someone knows of
replacement handle kits?...

Other than the broken handle and the "used keg grunge", its in fine shape.
Plus, who doesn't need another keg?!

Thanks,
Paul Kensler
Plano, TX



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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:32:58 -0500
From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: Hydrometers and refractometers

Greetings, all!

I've been out of touch for quite a while, but I've got an excuse--I'm
brewing pro now. I've been the assistant brewer (read: brew-slave) at the
Copper Dragon in Carbondale, IL. for the past 4 months. Which leads me to my
question: I need either a source for an accurate narrow-range hydrometer, or
some specific info on buying a refractometer (nothing chinese, please).

First of all, when we take a reading during the first few days of a
fermentation, the dissolved CO2 gives erroneous readings. How do I know
this? Taste. If the gravity after pitching is say 1050 and it reads the same
thing the next day even though it's bubbling away like crazy AND it doesn't
taste nearly as sweet, the reading is off.

In the past, a lot of these readings simply weren't taken, but I've been
assigned the QC for the brewery and am attempting to institute a few
changes, like the basic tracking of the fermentation, yeast counts, etc.

Does anyone out there have some first-hand experience using refractometers
in a brewery setting? I can handle decarbonating a few drops of wort from
the fermenter, but if I have to decarbonate ~300-mL of wort from 4
fermenters every day, it might start feeling like a job. 

Who makes/sells a good quality refractometer? And what warrants the price
differences between apparently similar instruments? What are their
limitations compared with a hydrometer?

TIA, and thanks to all the help I've recieved in the past from this forum. I
never could have gotten this job without ALL of your help,


   
Harlan.
   
                 
         Harlan Bauer                         ...malt does more than Milton can
         Carbondale, IL                            To justify God's ways to
man.           <blacksab at midwest.net>
- --A.E. Houseman                
   



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---