---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Protein rests at Redhook (Scott Murman)
  RE: Husky Tannins/Liebfraumilch/Narziss ("Steve Alexander")
  cops and HB club meetings (kathy)
  Refractometers and degassing solutions / Hop musings (George_De_Piro)
  Burners (George_De_Piro)
  Q: corny keg handle repair (cdwood)
  St Goldings = Fuggle ("Dave Draper")
  Re: corny keg handle repair ("Lutzen, Karl F.")
  lactose & choc. syrup at bottling (Dan Szemenyei)" <iamelvis at esu.edu>
  Refractometers, Electric Boil, Clear Wave ("David R. Burley")
  Re:  Maris Otter/lot numbers (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  Altbier attenuation ("Jim Busch")
  re:Full volume boils on an electric stove? ("Brian J. Paszkiet")
  Electric stove; fire in the hole (ouch!); hydromefractometry (Samuel Mize)
  Al tubing & Caddo brewery in Shreveport (Dana Edgell)
  Clear Wave ("Fuggles McFirkin")
  electric stove boiling (Stephen Ross)
  apple cider (Jason Hartzler)
  Re: Tinseth BU equations ("Glenn Tinseth")
  Corny Keg Source ("Anderson, Vance")
  Protein content of malt (George_De_Piro)
  Cellarmanship and Long Term Storage (SBireley)
  Antique Guinness ("Lee C. Carpenter")
  Styrian Goldings (Al Korzonas)
  Re: Styrian Golding (Sean Mick)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:55:07 -0700
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Protein rests at Redhook


George D.P. and I seemed destined to continue this...

>      Scott Murman refers to a recent HBD that quotes the Redhook brewers as 
>      saying that they use a 50C (122F) rest, then ramp up to 71C (160F) 
>      when making their ESB.  They use domestic 2-row barley malt.  Scott 
>      seems concerned that if they use a protein rest, it must be a good 
>      thing.

I was actually making a very sarcastic point that even "professional"
brewers do use protein (and glucan) rests and feel it worthwhile in
some instances.  I've said in this forum many times that there are
numerous variables involved and just as many opinions, and blanket
statements such as,

>      The frivolity of a 50C rest is hardly worth disputing (in a barley 
>      malt brew).  Practical experience and modern literature agree that it 
>      is not only a waste of brewhouse time, but it will result in a 
>      lower-quality beer.

are doomed to be quoted with "except".   

George, I'm glad you're so convinced that an entire range of enzyme
activity have no utility in your brewing, but I'm not.

SM
(feeling frisky now that El Nino has left)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 04:09:15 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Husky Tannins/Liebfraumilch/Narziss

First - apologies for my extended absence, in the past 6 weeks I've
left my employer of 11 years and started my own biz, It's been a busy
time, but finally I've cleared the decks enough to get back to brewing
and to HBD (the important stuff), after figuring out how to make a
living.
==
Dave Burley and AlK are at it again regarding husks & phenolics for a
brewer experiencing astringent beers.

Dave is right that true husks do contain potentially astringent
phenols, particularly polymers of monophenols that are most likely to
be released under high pH conditions. These are also most likely to
get caught in the hot/cold break (assuming the brewer was getting a
good break - he was not).  Al makes a good point that the total amount
of phenols in the husk sieve fraction is (on a percentage basis)
fairly small (~25%) and mostly attributable to the non-true-husk
portion. Also other substances, like silicates in husks also create
harsh flavors.  I'd side with Al here *if* we knew the pH was OK. This
low % of phenolics from the true husk figure goes out the window if
the pH of far out of whack or you oversparge, or use too thin a mash.
The brewer is getting astringency and no break matter - so despite the
figures given, his pH measurements are subject to question.

Wheat, rice, oats and barley all have about the same amount of total
phenols in micrograms per gram of grain, in spite of the fact that
wheat is huskless. They also all contain rather different mixes of
phenolic compounds. During malting, and further during mashing many of
the bound phenols become free due to enzymatic action.  One possible
difference is that the wheat is likely to be unmalted and therefore
have less free phenols.  I think this is somewhat unlikely though.

Astringent taste is due to something, often phenolic compounds,
binding to oligomers of amino acid (short proteins) in the mouth. So
why didn't these bind to protein in the beer ?  Because the
appropriate proteins capable of binding were not present.  A wheat
addition may add the needed proteins to bind to the offending
phenolics.  Wheat does contain a protein fraction with high affinity
for phenolic bonds.  It can be much like adding PVPP/Polyclar or
gelatin to reduce astringency - the phenols bound to proteins in haze
are much less flavor active than free ones.

'Course Jeff Renner may have found the problem in the hops too.
==
Al also responded to a haze/dry hopping question.  I have to disagree
in part with his answer.  Dry hopping and late hops additions can
cause haze, and I've experienced this myself.  The dry hops can
apparently release enough polymeric phenols, even at a low pH, to push
the balance toward protein-phenolic haze formation.  My expectation is
that this should be more prevalent when using oxidized (stale) hops,
or when other oxidation products (as from HSA) are present.  The hops
phenolics (mostly monophenols and easily hydrolysable polymers of)
must polymerize in order to play a part in haze formation.  This can
be caused by enzymatic activity (unlikely) and also oxidation reactions.
I am surprised that this doesn't happen more often.
==
Jim Busch writes about Narziss and 'protein rests'.  Jim - could you
post/email the Brauwelt reference ?  I intended to challenge the
original post (was it George DePiro?), since it's well known that
carboxypeptidases play an important role in protein release from malt
and some have a temperature optima around 62C(144F).

Ludwig Narziss is head researcher at Wehenstephan(sp?) I believe and
has written some amazingly important stuff - mostly not in translation
as far as I know.  I keep reading the English abstracts and hoping
he'll come out with a book.  Anyone know ?
==
D.Burley ...
>Liebfraumilch ( Mother Mary's Milk ) [...]
Gee the literal translation is so much more evocative - are you sure
this is right Dave ?  Drink a QmP Kabinett or Spatslese instead
anyway.
==
As my friend says .... 
"Don't give up or lose heart. It isn't tocket science."

Tocket Science is my Life - 10^6 feet ESE of Jeff Renner -
(sorry Jeff - had to)
Stevea
 .



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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:43:50 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: cops and HB club meetings

The Capital Area Brew Crew had their monthly meeting last night complete
with cops and breathalyzers.  Toward the end of the meeting (2-1/2 hrs
in), the local communities finest were invited to stop in and educate us
about breatholyzers.  

We started with the lightest   at  150# who blew .07.  In Michigan, .08
gets you an OUI, and .1 gets you  a DUI.  .07 turned out to be the
highest of the evening with most in the .04-.055 or less and he had a
designated driver.  I couldn't even blow .01 on an estimated 60 oz in 3+
hours.

We do ask attenders to bring 3 bottles max to share, but exceptions have
occured.  The cops were a very pleasant interlude and we were generally
amazed at how much it takes to get .08 and the cops were amazed at how
low us homebrewers tested.

A story off the Prairie Home Campanion "Joke Night".

The local cops were watching the tavern for DUI's and about 11:30 pm a
young man staggered out...fell down....got up and hunted for car keys
for some time....tried one car and then another until his opened and
then he crawled into the back seat and slept.  The cops waited for him
to attempt to drive, as one by one other cars left.  When the parking
lot was empty of other cars, the potential offender started to drive
away.  The cops pulled him over and tested, but were amazed when the
test results blew "0".  They quizzed him about his conduct and thought
their machine was defective, until the suspect said  "Your machine is
ok, I haven't had anything to drink....I was the designated decoy!"

I doubt that .08 as a national limit would have much impact on much of
anything, and I don't think it is a step onto the slippery slope toward
prohibitation.   Michigan's .08 hasn't had much impact on the polluted
drivers at 1.8+ that are most of the arrests and accidents. Michigan's
zero tolerance for underage drinker-drivers seems to have slowed down
the high school crowd.    cheers,  jim booth, lansing, mi 

We do need to take the designated driver bit seriously.




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:32:57 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Refractometers and degassing solutions / Hop musings

     Hi all,
     
     Harlan is instituting a QC program at his brewery (great idea!).  He 
     is wondering how he can track fermentation gravity.  Using a 
     hydrometer is a pain because of the high CO2 content of the ferment.
     
     A refractometer won't really work on wort once alcohol is being 
     produced.  The alcohol alters the refractive index of the liquid, and 
     without knowing how much alcohol is in the liquid, you can't correct 
     for it.
     
     Brewer's Resource used to sell narrow range hydrometers, but they were 
     too fragile to ship.  I found this out when I called to order a new 
     one after I broke the original.  Scientific supply houses (the kind 
     that charge ridiculous prices, like VWR and Fisher) sell narrow range 
     hydrometers.  I'm sure a good scrounger can find cheaper sources, but 
     even the two places I mentioned aren't that expensive.
     
     As far as degassing the sample, it need not be work.  Simply putting 
     the sample on a stir plate for a few minutes should do the trick (and 
     you don't have to stand there watching it).  Also, sonication works 
     pretty well, too.  I believe there are pretty cheap sonicators 
     available for cleaning jewelry at home.  Check your local discount 
     department store or call a jeweler and ask where the device can be 
     found.
     ------------------------------------
     Since the queue is still reasonable I'll babble a bit about my recent 
     hop growing experiences.
     
     I have a yardful of second-year vines that started growing in March 
     when we had a heat wave here in southern NY.  Yesterday I finally got 
     around to building a new, higher trellis for them and trimmed them 
     back and strung them.  Some of the vines are already 6 feet (~1.8 m) 
     tall!
     
     My arms got pretty red and itchy after a brief time (I was wearing 
     short sleeves).  I seem to be allergic to hop vines.  Is this common?
     
     I've seen films of young, bikini-clad, Czech. women stringing hop 
     vines (oh, boy, the things that excite a brewer...).  I couldn't help 
     but wonder how common (or uncommon) my allergy is, and how these women 
     felt at the end of the day!
     
     (Yes, I know that last line is a double entendre: get your minds out 
     of the gutter!)
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:41:17 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Burners

     Hi all,
     
     With all the talk about burners, and the flaws in the recent Zymurgy 
     burner article, I figured that I would ask a question:
     
     What burners are the cleanest burning?  I was really hoping to see 
     that variable examined in the Zymurgy article.  I am unfortunate 
     enough to own one of those Cajun Rockets (it is gathering dust and 
     rust in my basement).  The major reason I don't use it is because it 
     burns with such a sooty flame on anything but the highest output.  As 
     many here have noted, the liquid literally leaps from the pot when you 
     run the thing that high.  Not only useless, but dangerous; I was 
     burned by wort from 3 feet (1 m) away once!
     
     Which burners can be run cleanly at all settings?
     
     Thanks for the info, have fun!
     
     George


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:45:17 -0400
From: cdwood at lexmark.com
Subject: Q: corny keg handle repair


paul,

>paul.kensler at ibm.net Wrote:


>I recently won a used ball-lock corny keg at a club meeting raffle.  It
has
>one of those single-piece rubber handle / cap at the top (the kind where
>you can stand it upside down), which is becoming separated from the
>stainless steel.
I had this problem with a keg I bought.  I used some 3M brand, Scotch
Grip(tm) 1357 High Performance
Contact Adhesive.  Worked great....


May Your Next Batch Be Your Best!!
Curt Woodson
Member of B.O.C.K. (Brewers Of Centeral Kentucky)




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:02:17 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: St Goldings = Fuggle

Dear Friends,

Just to clarify a point, it has been known for a very long time that 
Stryian Goldings are Fuggle... I believe since Dave Line's day in the 
early 70s.  The US Tettnanger = Fuggle revelation is much more 
recent, although from Andy Walsh's outstanding work it is apparent 
that this was known commercially for some time too.  I second Dave 
B's praise of Andy's BT article-- excellent job.

Cheers, Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
Life is short, grain is cheap. ---Rich Lenihan



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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:10:33 -0500
From: "Lutzen, Karl F." <kfl at umr.edu>
Subject: Re: corny keg handle repair


>From: Paul Kensler <paul.kensler at ibm.net>

>Has anyone had success or failure trying to re-glue the handle to the
keg?
>I was thinking of using a semi-flexible all-purpose epoxy -- something
that
>would provide sort of a vacuum seal.  I wouldn't suppose someone knows
of
>replacement handle kits?...

I found a wonderful adhesive: Polyuerathane (sp?) Glue.  It's $8.00 a 
bottle, but it bonds anything to anything (well, almost anything).  It 
would be what I would try, as everything I've used it on has become 
permanently bonded together.  One thing to be aware of, is that the 
glue requires humidity to cure and it expands a bit as it cures.  
(don't use it in extremely low humidity environments without wrapping
it a damp cloth)


=====================================================================
Karl F. Lutzen                   | Computing and Information Services 
Scientific Programmer Analyst II | University of Missouri - Rolla
E-Mail: kfl at umr.edu              | 114 Math-Computer Science Bldg. 
Fax: (573) 341-4216              | 1870 Miner Circle 
Voice: (573) 341-4841            | Rolla, MO 65409-0360
=====================================================================


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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:21:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Aanakin Skywalker (Dan Szemenyei)" <iamelvis at esu.edu>
Subject: lactose & choc. syrup at bottling

Hi all, quick question. I brewed a coffee stout.  I want a little more
sweetness.  Can I add lactose with my priming DME for bottling?  Will DME
give me enough residual sweetness? Is chocolate syrup a good idea?  Thanks
a million!
Dan 






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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:29:23 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Refractometers, Electric Boil, Clear Wave

Brewsters:

Harlan Bauer asks about simple quality control of fermentation
progress in a microbrewery (congrats on the new job Harlan).
He has had poor success with using a hydrometer because
of dissolved CO2 in the beer and doesn't want to degas a
large quantity of beer for this measurement. Rather than
spring for a refractometer , which has the same problem on
a smaller scale, try taking a sample of beer and diluting it
( say 2 drops of beer in 8 drops of water) and then use this
diluted sample with a Clinitest Kit from the Pharmacy. It is a lot
cheaper ( $14 versus $3500)  and doesn't require excessive
cleaning, doesn't stick together if you forget to clean it and if
you drop it, all you need is a new testube, at most.  It is fast
and will probably give you the indication you want, to the
accuracy you need.  Near the end of the fermentation, dilution
is not necessary. Typically a reading of less than 1/4% glucose
will tell you that the fermentation is finished.
- --------------------------------------------------
Bill Goodman asks about boiling on an electric stove.  First,
do not buy a large kettle for a boiler.  Buy two cheap 4 gallon
SS boilers.  It is much easier to handle and boil these than
a large kettle. Secondly, I control the boil rate and reduce
oxidation during the boil by having the lid partially (80%) on
the kettle. this limits the circulation of air over the surface of
the boil and gives a higher velocity to the steam, so that air
is excluded.  Allow the kettle to come to a boil without the lid
and then after the foam has died down, slide the lid on almost
completely, so that a steady, rolling boil occurs. Cheaper and
easier, controllable and your beer has much lower color and
oxidation than if done in a large kettle with the top open.
- ---------------------------------------------
Harry Bush wants to know how this works and says:

>For the past couple of years, I've been seeing a product
called "Clear
>Wave" being marketed (it has already made the run
from the "Brookstone" 

>to
>"Damark" catalogs)  as an alternative to water softening,
particularly
>claiming to reduce mineral buildup in pipes.

>From what I can see from the picture, the Clear Wave
installs around 

>your
>incoming water pipe and your house water passes
through a magnetic field
>(ac?, dc?, frequency?) before going to your faucet.

Well, Harry, I've been trying to figure out how to take these
guys and those that sell the "pest chaser" to court so I
can make some real money from their fraudulent activities.
Sort of a private "sting".  I just can't figure out how to do it.
I guess the fact that this device has fallen from the Brookstone
to the Damark Catalog which basically sells junk and items
which others do not want,  tells you that Americans are smarter
than most other Americans give them credit for.

It doesn't work. If it did, you would have a pile of minerals
in the pipe at the Clear Wave site, since it is the minerals
in the water which make it hard..

If you want to improve your water,
do buy the Reverse Osmosis unit which Home
Depot has for about $150 -200.

As far as the magnetic belt helping back pain, copper bracelets
or other medical cures, appearance of the Virgin Mary,
UFO's, etc., never believe anecdotal evidence even if your
non-scientifically trained ( that's why they call it "practice")
doctor tells you so. It may be that some people got the belt
and it worked, but then again any belt may have helped,
maybe just believing was enough.  Like they say YMMV,
but don't let this be an excuse to believe in fake stuff.

Always ask to see the non-anecdotal, scientifically
developed data. If if can't be produced, remain sceptical.

If you don't believe me, I have some engine oil and gasoline
additives, a special sparkplug and a carburetor to sell you.

I used them on my car.  The oil additive saved 45% on gas used,
the gas additive 25%, the sparkplugs 50% and the carburetor 30%.
I drove ten miles and my gasoline tank overflowed!

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK  


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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:35:32 -0500
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Re:  Maris Otter/lot numbers

The Al Wrote:

>Lately, many people have been mis-using (and mis-spelling) "Maris Otter."
>This is a barley *strain* and *MANY* maltsters make malt from it.  Marris [sic]
>Otter couldn't send malt to the US any more than Klages or Harrington could
>send malt to England.


Well, I guess I should just plain stop posting at 2am anfter coding PERL,
COLD FUSION and HTML while enjoying a couple Barley Wines. I was aware that
Marrrrrus Otter (just couldn't resist that AL) is a strain and not the
maltster and just assumed (I know I know) that people would know what the
hell I was babbling about.

The following English maltsters are the ones I have used in the last 1 1/2
years that I have had problems with:

Hugh Baird, Muntons, Crisp

Crisp seems to be the biggest culprit of poorly malted Maris Otter lately
and Muntons has seemingly out performed the Hugh Baird which was until the
last year one of my favorite British Malts.

I am wondering if anyone else has had problems with any of these and if
there is any sort of action we could take to make these maltsters get back
to where they were a few years ago... Or, are they just sending the U.S.
their crappy stock and keeping the good stuff for them selves?

Then again... Maybe the British Malts simply don't like me brewing in my
PLAID!!! and playing me Bagpipes.. Who knows

 -Scott Abene




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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:49:33 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Altbier attenuation

Al asserted that he was not so sure  that Altbiers, and Zum 
Uerige in particular, are highly attenuated.  Im not making this up 
as it is clearly labeled on the bottle I bought last Sept, I believe 
the original gravity or stammwuerzen (sp?) is 11.5-11.7P and it 
achieves an ABV right around 4.8-5%.  This is from my hellerbock 
clouded memory but I did the math awhile ago and it was around 79-81% 
ADA, which seemed to match Daniels numbers too.   Just goest to show 
my point again, malty full beers can be well attenuated.

Prost!

Jim Busch




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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:46:43 -0500
From: "Brian J. Paszkiet" <bpaszkie at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: re:Full volume boils on an electric stove?

Bill Goodman said:
I have a few questions for anyone who's successfully done full volume boils
on an electric stove:
(1)  How do I achieve a rapid boil?  Does laying the pot across two
elements do the trick?

Yes, this does work very well for me, although I use one of those 8.25
gallon ceramic-on-steel pots that is very wide.  It fits perfectly over 2
burners (one large, one small).  With both burners set on high, I can
achieve a rolling boil.

(3)  What should my start and finish volumes be for a 5 gallon batch?  I
can't imagine too much evaporation taking place in a 60-90 minute boil on
an electric stove, and want to end up with 5 gallons wort in the fermenter
after leaving trub and spent hops behind.

In a 75 min. boil I get nearly 1.5 gallons lost to evaporation with a 7
gallon starting volume.  YMMV of course.

Hope this helps,
Brian Paszkiet



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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:52:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Electric stove; fire in the hole (ouch!); hydromefractometry

Greetings to all, and especially to:

> From: Bill Goodman <goodman at APWK01G1.nws.noaa.gov>
> Subject: Full volume boils on an electric stove?
> 
> I have a few questions for anyone who's successfully done full volume
> boils on an electric stove:

That would be me.


> (1)  How do I achieve a rapid boil?  Does laying the pot across two
> elements do the trick?

It's about all you can do.  Results will depend on your particular stove.
I can maintain a gently rolling boil with the elements backed off just a
little from full blast.  If your stove can't reach and maintain a boil
with two burners, you'll have to move up to thermite.


> (2)  Would so-called "canning elements" (elements which are raised about
> an inch off the stove top) help increase efficiency?  If so, where can I
> find them, and what do they cost?

So I hear, but I haven't gone out and found them -- haven't needed to.
Check under "appliances - parts" in the Yellow Pages.

Until or unless you get them, you want to raise the pot a little OFF the
elements.  This will do two things:

1) Reduce risk of wort caramelizing/burning on the kettle bottom.

2) Greatly extend the life of your elements.  They are designed to cool
   themselves by convection.  It stresses them to put a great huge pot on
   top of them, which cuts off much of the convective airflow, and then
   run the element full blast for over an hour.

You can get a "heat tamer" at some kitchen goods stores.  Or, you can bend
and unvarnished coat hanger into a V shape, and put that between the element
and the pot.  Or, you can put something beside the burner for the pot to
rest on, holding it up maybe 1/8 to 1/4 inch off the element.  I used to
use canning-jar rings; I now use a couple of pieces of wood that I cut to
the right size.


> (3)  What should my start and finish volumes be for a 5 gallon batch?

Beats the heck out of me, I don't know your particular stove and pot.  You
may lose about 1/2 gallon; you may lose about 1 1/2 gallons.  You'll have
to test your own system and find out.

If you're using extract, start with 5 1/2 gallons the first time.  You'll
almost certainly lose 1/2 gallon to boil and trub.  Then top up to five
gallons with boiled water, and see how much more you needed -- add it to
the boil next time.

With my stove/pot/habits, I boil off a little over a gallon.

- ------------------------------
> From: Rick Olivo <ashpress at win.bright.net>
> Subject: Condom oxygenators
> 
> Don't worry about exploding condoms. The lubricant is always water based.
> Condoms, being made of latex, 

Is latex flammable in a high-oxygen environment?  I'm not sure I'd be real
comfortable about using any organic to contain a bubble of oxygen.  No hard
data here, just conjecture.  Cosmonaut Valentin Bondarenko and the Apollo 3
crew (Grissom, Chaffee, and Young) were killed when things that don't
ordinarily burn well, or at all, caught fire in high-oxygen environments.

- ------------------------------
> From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer)
> Subject: Hydrometers and refractometers

> First of all, when we take a reading during the first few days of a
> fermentation, the dissolved CO2 gives erroneous readings.

Couldn't you drive out the CO2 by heating the sample?  Or just let it
sit for an hour and go flat.  Is that what you mean by:

> if I have to decarbonate ~300-mL of wort from 4
> fermenters every day, it might start feeling like a job. 

I don't understand why it's a hassle, unless you're decarbonating it
by shaking it -- that would be a bit of work.

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:50:55 -0500
From: Dana Edgell <edgell at quantum-net.com>
Subject: Al tubing & Caddo brewery in Shreveport

HBD,

I recently posted a question about using Al tubing in a jockey box. I
received no major warnings so I went ahead and built one. I thought I would
share what
I have learned with the HBD.

First, of all the required length of tubing: as the beer was to be at room
temp it would require about 30psi to carbonate properly. To dispense at this
pressure without excessive foaming requires a balancing
constriction/resistance from the tubing. I originally tried only 10 ft and
got all foam. I added a second coil and everything poured fine. BOTTOM LINE:
20 ft total of 1/4" o.d. tubing resulted in for a proper pour

Second, I found that the beer developed a very bad taste when I used the Al
tubing. The beer in the keg was fine and after sucking on a piece of Al
tubing I am sure the taste came from the aluminum. I ran several gallons of
detergent water, then several gallons of idophor solution and finally
several gallons of rinse water all through the coils. The taste was reduced
but not gone! The next day I ran detergent water through the coils for over
eight hours! It wasn't that much work as I simply recycled a big bucket
every half hour. Finally, (after rinsing) the beer no longer developes any
aluminum taste. BOTTOM LINE: be prepared to rinse the Al tubing a long time.
- ----
One totally unrelated question: Does anyone have any information (address
etc.) about the Caddo Brewery that is aledgedly being built in Shreveport LA?

Thanks,
Dana Edgell
- ---------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell                     edgell at quantum-net.com
Edge Ale Brewery                http://www.quantum-net.com/edge_ale
San Diego                         home of the Water Treatment Workpage



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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:38:08 PDT
From: "Fuggles McFirkin" <humulus at hotmail.com>
Subject: Clear Wave

Harry Bush asks about Clear Wave, a product which purportedly softens 
water.

Products such as this are hoaxes, the only thing they will remove is 
dollars from your wallet.  These devices have never been shown to have 
any effect on water, which is not surprising, since there is no coherent 
scientific explanation for how they could possibly work.  The 
scientific-sounding mumbo-jumbo the salesmen spew ("They create a 
reverse-biased tachyon field which synchronizes with the harmonic 
frequency in order to reverse the polarity of the ion's hyperparabolic 
field energy! Honest!") is meant to confuse you, not to provide an 
explanation.

In short, these devices do nothing to affect your water, nor will they 
affect your beer.  Save your money for a REAL water treatment, if indeed 
you need one at all.

What about your doctor's comments relative to the magnetic belt?  Do 
they actually work?  Well, the intersting thing about the human body is 
that it is greatly affected by the human mind.  So, if a person believes 
that such and such a device will reduce his pain, then it is very 
possible that the device actually WILL reduce his perception of pain, 
even if the device is not directlly affecting his body in any way.  
Heck, you could replace the magnets with beer nuts, and the device would 
be just as effective.  It's what you believe that enables such a product 
to work, not what the device actually does.

Water, on the other hand, is not controlled by a brain, and thus is not 
affected in the least by such things.  

Kelly
Hillsboro, OR


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:09:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Stephen Ross <ross at lights.com>
Subject: electric stove boiling

Hi brewers,

In Homebrew Digest #2695 (April 23, 1998)
Bill Goodman asks about full volume boils on an electric stove.

Until I bought my jumbo propane cooker, which I love dearly, even if it
does make a gonging noise when my wife throws it off the bed (cheers,
Pat!), I did my full volume boils on an apartment sized electric stove
with only one large burner.  I found I was able to bring the wort to a
boil in 40 minutes, but I was only able to maintain the boil if it was
partially covered.  Here's what helped:

tinfoil covered stove top - I don't know that it helped with efficiency
that much, but it sure helped with clean-up.  Partially covered pots seem
more likely to boil over.

pot spanned most of the large burner, and 2/3 of a small burner - I kept
both burners on high until boil, then switched them to 90%.  The uneven
heat kept the wort swirling, I didn't have much problem with
caramelization.  I keep the pot covered until start of boil, then keep it
2/3 covered.

I tried starting the boil with the initial run-off, then adding the later
sparge, but it didn't make that much difference, and was a real hassle. It
also interfered with FWH. The 40 minutes to bring to a boil was just
enough time to pour a beer, write up my brew log, check the starter,
sanitize the primary, and clean the kitchen of grain, scales, lauter tuns,
and other brewing detritus.

I allowed 25 quarts for 20 quarts to end up in my keg, but hardly any of
that extra 5 quarts is evaporate. YMMV if you don't have to keep your pot
2/3 covered, and if you can achieve a more vigorous boil.  I lose about
1.5 quarts in a 90 minute boil, and because of the not-so-great hotbreak
coagulation, at least 2 quarts in slurry at the bottom of the pot.

I imagine I will return to kitchen brewing in the cold season, and will be
using the teeny stove again.  It works fine.

may your kegs always be full,

Stephen Ross
Saskatoon SK




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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:23:23 -0500
From: Jason Hartzler <jehartzl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Subject: apple cider

hbd,
anyone ever make any type of beer,wine,mead,or whatever with apple cider or
apple juice which ended up with the apple flavor.  i would appreciate
anyones experience on this topic or a direction to any writings on the
subject.  thanks,
jeh



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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:43:57 +0000
From: "Glenn Tinseth" <glenn at terrapacific.com>
Subject: Re: Tinseth BU equations

There seems to be some worry about whether to use pre-boil wort volume, 
average wort volume (taken over the entire boil) or final wort volume 
in the equations I put together for estimating BUs in a brew. As I told 
Fred in our email exchanges, it doesn't really matter. Here's an excerpt 
from our eamil discussion:

==========
"Unfortunately, the data came from many different sources, including my own
analyses, published industry data, Oregon State Univ. sensory perception
data, and insider info from different west coast micros (Sierra Nevada,
etc). To top it off, there was no standard reporting of volume, some
reported initial, some final, some didn't specify which.

To reiterate what I mentioned in my previous post, my equations may give you
good absolute numbers, but the chances are slim. Factors that aren't
considered include kettle geometry, boil vigor, initial hop concentration,
mixing during boil, pH of boil, how do you count cooling time and do you use
counter flow or immersion chilling, the list goes on and on.

My goal was to give brewers a set of equations which they could modify to
match their specific brewery, but even if the equations are used "stock,"
they will give a very good relative prediction of BU values, as long as they
are used consistently. If you want accurate absolute BU prediction, you will
probably have to modify one or more of the factors to make the curves match
your sample data."
==========

Since the data represent an average of many different breweries and brewing 
methodologies, the best we can hope for is a good starting point and a good 
relative measure of changes in BUs. If you re-do the equations with a
different 
(just as imaginary) wort volume number, it will improve the equations
ability 
to predict absolute BUs for *some* breweries and lessen it for others. The 
intent behind my equations is not to give an absolute number -- that's 
impossible due to the wide variety of breweries out there. I will repeat
what 
I said above, if you want absolute numbers, you have to get a large number
of 
samples analyzed and either modify the various factors in my equations or 
develop your own. Then you will have equations that predict your BUs very
well 
but will probably not work well for other breweries.

I welcome further correspondance on this issue, either in the digest or via
email,

Glenn
- ------------
Glenn Tinseth
Corvallis, OR, USA
email: glenn at terrapacific.com


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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:22:35 -0700
From: "Anderson, Vance" <Anderson at dmea.osd.mil>
Subject: Corny Keg Source

I've seen a couple posts regarding brewers looking for kegs in N. Cal.
And decided to come out of lurker status to share a local source.  RCB
equipment in the Sacramento, CA area is  currently advertising a special
price on 5 gal corny kegs at $11.50 each.  I have not yet contacted them
but will likely do so in the near future.  No affiliation, blah, blah,
blah.
 
RCB Fermentation Equipment
916-723-8859
RCB at JPS.net 
http://www.rcbequip.com/

Vance in Auburn, CA


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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:38:46 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Protein content of malt

     Hi all,
     
     I have read that it is best to use low-protein barley for malt 
     production.  One of the things that bothers some people about modern 
     Munich and Vienna malts is the fact that they are often made with 
     higher protein barley than Pilsner malt.  I know that George Fix has 
     written about this a bit.
     
     I asked about this at Siebel, and was told that higher protein malt is 
     *purposely* used in the making of the melanoidin-rich malts because 
     they want to maximize (to a point) the concentrations of Maillard 
     reactants (amino acids and sugars).
     
     This struck me as odd at the time; how much of a difference to the 
     Maillard reactions will 1-2% total nitrogen be?  Then I read the same 
     thing in Kunze!  OK, so now I have two sources telling me that higher 
     protein barley is more suitable for Munich malt production than the 
     lower protein barley used for Pilsner malts.
     
     Anybody out there have opposing/supporting views?  Dr. Fix?  Mort at 
     H-W?
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 14:33:31 EST
From: SBireley at renex.com
Subject: Cellarmanship and Long Term Storage

     I am building a  two compartment beer refrigerator to lager, age and 
     serve beer from the components of standard kitchen refrigerator.  My 
     design goal is to have a compartment for Lagering at about 32 Deg., 
     one for serving beer at 45 deg.  Each compartment will be controlled 
     with a thermocouple temperature controller venting cold air from the 
     lagering compartment which contains the freezer element.  I plan to 
     have room for 4 kegs at serving temperature and 4 at lagering 
     temperature. I may split the serving compartment to allow for cold 
     beer and cool beer.
     
     My questions to the collective concern proper cellarmanship of various 
     beer styles and the effect of long term storage at certain 
     temperatures.
     
     1. Will lagers be adversely or positively affected by storing them at 
     lagering temperatures for months, or should they be stored at serving 
     temperature after lagering?
     
     2. Will ales be adversely or positively affected by storing them at 
     lagering temperatures for extended periods.  I want to use the 
     lagering compartment for overflow storage if the serving compartment 
     is full.
     
     
     Any help or comments are appreciated.
     
     Steve Bireley
     
     
     One must take good care of good beer.
     
     
     
     
     
     



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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:40:05 -0400
From: "Lee C. Carpenter" <lee at brew-master.com>
Subject: Antique Guinness 

I recently obtained a 6 1/3 ounce bottle of Guinness Foreign Extra Stout
which I believe to be in the neighborhood of 60 years old. Does anyone know
where I can trace the number to find out for sure? I can't find it on the
web. The bottle number is: L/43  103836. It is dark green glass and has G.F.
Heublein and Bro. as the importer. (Hartford, CT). I'd appreciate any help.

Lee C. Carpenter
Meadow Creek Brewing
Landisville, PA
lee at brew-master.com



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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:10:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Styrian Goldings

Dave writes:
>Styrian Golding is actually Fuggles.

Yes, this has been known for ages, but the fact remains that Sean is
right... Styrian Goldings are very similar to Kent Goldings in terms
of aroma and flavour and they don't have that citrusy character (which
is nice, but a touch un-Kentish) that Oregon or Washington State Goldings
have.

If you don't believe me, buy some and compare Fuggles, East Kent
Goldings and Styrian Goldings side-by-side.  I'm willing to bet that
the Styrians will be much more EKG-like than Fuggle-like.  In fact,
the defining characters of EKG (resiny and candylike aromas) are *more
intense* in the Stryian Goldings, in my experience.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:10:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: Re: Styrian Golding

      Dave Burley correctly brought to the forum that Styrian Goldings are
in fact English Fuggles transplanted to Europe and mislabeled as "Golding"
pedigree. My point, however, was that Styrian Goldings seem to have more
sensory similarities to East Kent Goldings than Yakima Goldings do. This
was my opinion, not based on chemical analysis. I was aware of the BT
article and the mislabeling of Styrian Goldings when I wrote the post. I do
thank Dave for bringing this up;  I did not intend to give anyone the
impression that Styrian Goldings were of the same rootstock as East Kent
Goldings. That's why I cited a few books and websites for further reading.

Brew On!

Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew




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---