---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  How Stout is Lewis? ("Hans E. Hansen")
  Fermentation generated heat ("Mercer, David")
  Burners ("David T. Peters")
  Peanut flavour in beer (Al Korzonas)
  Greenfield effect (Al Korzonas)
  RE:  Classic Beer Style Series - Belgian Ale ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  magnets (haafbrau1)
  tube brush and beasties and more (AlannnnT)
  Call for Judges for the First Round SE Nationals (lee gross)
  Cajun Cooker defense ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Archaic Beer Laws (Ed Pearson)
  AJ de Lange & pH ("John S. Thomas")
  Big Brew '98-The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Getting lagers going in under 24 hours. (Jon Bovard)
  Magnets ("David Hill")
  Hop information wanted (results)
  Olives in Stout?/Re: Green Guinness Bottles ("Tkach, Christopher")
  Photography; Hawthorne effect; pots (Samuel Mize)
  Fwd: portland org brew pubs (Thomas Kramer)
  Reverse Osmosis (and the Hawthorne Effect-NOT) (Harold L Bush)
  Re: Belgians ("J. Matthew Saunders")
  Re: Measuring SG / Munich Malt (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Oregon fruit products/chiropractors and a question (Spencer W Thomas)
  O'Doul's Amber (KennyEddy)
  Re:  Harsh Beer; Sparge Water ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Rice/Rice Extract ("Houseman, David L")
  Clinitest, Invert Sugar, NMR/MRI ("David R. Burley")
  Clean Burners (Jim Bentson)
  RE: Sabco RIMS (Art Steinmetz)
  Barley Trade War (Art Steinmetz)
  Stout ("Bryan L. Gros")
  IBU estimates ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Decoction (Tim.Watkins)
  Beefier propane burner needed (Mike Spinelli)


JudgeNet is under repair and will return online May 1.

BURP's Spirit of Free Beer competition is June 6-7 and entry information
is available by contacting Jay Adams (adams at burp.org).


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:52:31 -0700
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: How Stout is Lewis?

Hello all.

Commenting on comments from:

>Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:56:50 -0400
>From: pbabcock at oeonline.com
>Subject: Lewis

>Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

>On Lewis: recall his brilliant remarks regarding stout not as a style, but
>as merely a black beer <big snip>

I have been trying to figure out the difference between Stout and
Porter for some time. I have read every book and magazine source that
I can find, but get conflicting answers.  I find it comforting to know
that Lewis doesn't know either.

Before each of you answers with your favorite definitions, I point
you to the cooler at your local supermarket. (oops! I live in the
NW and our local supermarkets are full of micro- and specialty mega-
brews.  I hear other areas are not so fortunate.)  I recently brought
home about a dozen Stouts and Porters, plus went to a few local watering
holes to sample those not bottled commercially.  I still see no clear
difference.  You can find watery Stouts, Porters thick as pudding (and
vice-versa).  There are Porters with the supposedly signiture Stout
feature of roasted barley.  Alcohol strength of both is all over the
map.  It is true that breweries making both will make their Stout
'bigger', but comparing Brand-X Stout to Brand-Y Porter will more often
than not leave you confused.  To make matters worse, Porters in
antiquity
were apparently much stronger and darker (it depends on whose book you
are reading).

I think many will argue that brewers mis-label their beers - i.e.
Brand-Z's
Porter is really a Stout, but with such mis-labeling rampent, how do we
tell the difference?  One author (it may have been the Lewis book, I
don't
care to take the time to find it) apparently gives up and says the beer
is whatever the brewer decides to call it.

Anyway, FWIW, I enjoyed the Lewis book.

Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com


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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:11:03 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Fermentation generated heat

I brewed a big beer this past weekend - a 1.100 barley wine, something
I've only brewed once before, over two years ago - and I pitched a lot
of rehydrated actively churning dry yeast (30g of Glen Brewer) into
oxygenated 70F wort. There was activity in the airlock within 2 hours,
and after four there was a thickening kreuzen. By 24 hours the kreuzen
was about 7-8 inches thick and the airlock was sputtering so hard it was
actually throwing out droplets of vodka through those little holes in
the plastic cap. I haven't used dry yeast in years so I wasn't used to
this kind of violent ferment. One unexpected side effect has been the
generation of heat. The fermenter this morning (36 hours) was 78F and
was actually warm to the touch. A fermenter right next to it with 2 week
old beer remains stable at 68F. The ambient temperature in the room is
67F. 

Yowza. I suppose I can throw some cold wet towels over it tonight to try
to cool its passion. My question - are there any other kinds of remedial
steps I can take to correct whatever damage 36-48 hours of excessive
fermentation temps might have? Or are most of the problems with
temperatures that are too high related to heat in the later phases of
the fermentation? I really want to avoid an estery/fruity/jet fuel
effect, if it is not already too late.

Thanks for any advice.

Dave in Seattle


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Date: 28 Apr 1998 13:04:57 -0400
From: "David T. Peters" <dpeters3 at ford.com>
Subject: Burners

to: post@hbd.org

I recently received a burner as a gift.  I used it to try to bring 3 gallons
of water to a boil.  It took a lot longer than expected.  It is the cast iron
type, a Bayou Classic 95,000 BTU model.  It took well over a half hour to
bring 3 gallons to 180 degrees.  At this point, I took it back to the stove and
put it on my 2 burners as I had in the past.
I noticed a large white deposit on the burner and the frame to hold the pot. I
assume I had the gas mixture set wrong.
Any suggestions on how to set it proberly or other problems I might be having
causing the white buildup?

REGARDS,  DAVID T. PETERS         PROFS ID: DPETERS3
CW170 NA BODY CONSTRUCTION LEADER
VEHICLE OPERATIONS RM E-1004      MAIL LOCATION:  RM E-1750
E-MAIL: DPETERS3 at FORD.COM         PHONE: 248-6444  FAX: 592-239


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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:29:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Peanut flavour in beer

David asks about a peanut flavour he gets in Coast Range Brewing Co's
California Blonde Ale.

I haven't tried that beer, but I get a strong "peanut shell" aroma
in all the Grant's beers.  I had initially assumed that it was due
to oxidation because you can get nutty aromas from oxidation, but it
is so consistent and in every one of their products (very faint in the
Imperial Stout, but that has a very strong dark malt aroma) that I
have to believe it could be a characteristic of the yeast strain used.
I have been meaning to culture some of that yeast and see if I get
a nutty aroma or not.  My brewing system and methods have proven to
result in *very* low oxidation.  Alas, I'm not particularly fond of
that peanut shell aroma and so I've put this project on the back
burner.

Any takers?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:37:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Greenfield effect

Jim writes about the act of experimenting influencing the experiment.
That was not GE, but rather Western Electric, which was a division of
the Bell System and then later became AT&T and was then spun-off as
Lucent Technologies - Bell Labs Innovations (for whom I work).  The
effect took the name of the plant (I believe it was a cable manufacturing
plant), which was called Hawthorne Works.  The effect came to be known
as "The Hawthorne Effect."

Al.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:05:29 -0700
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: RE:  Classic Beer Style Series - Belgian Ale

Dan Cole asks about the lack of yeast information in the Classic Beer
Style Series, Belgian Ale.  It is true that there is not much discussion
on individual yeast strains - given the hundreds of beers produced in
Belgium, this would no doubt be a daunting task.  However, I think the
book does give some good general advice on how to handle yeast in
Belgian ale brewing, with a fair amount of discussion on the importance
of pitching rates, aeration and re-pitching for bottle conditioning
(VERY important for strong Belgian styles, IMHO).  Additionally, my
experience with Belgian yeasts has been that they can behave very
differently as a function of variables such as temperature, wort
composition, aeration, etc., so it can be hard to make general
statements about their quality or attributes they will lend to the
finished product.  Just my two cents - 

Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:21:12 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: magnets

What about the magnetic fields eminating from your computer and/or
monitor?  I'm sure they have an affect on you.  If you put a magnetic
belt around your beer, how will it affect head retention and carbonation
8-^}?
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:39:33 EDT
From: AlannnnT <AlannnnT at aol.com>
Subject: tube brush and beasties and more

Chris Cooper suggested:
 While cleaning stuff it occurred to my that my 
	daughter's trumpet cleaning brush might work well for cleaning the 
	dip tube in the corny and violla (or is it violins?) a new piece of
	brewing equipment was born! 

Chris, brewshops sell this exact brush for about four dollars. It cleans a dip
tube perfectly. If your brewshop doesn't carry it, tell them to get you one
from Crosby and Baker, [wholesaler]. 

Don Erickson asks about a possible contamination

"I'd really like to bottle it soon, but at the rate it's fermenting,
I'm afraid of exploding bottles. What should I do ????
I've read that "stuck fermentations" can go on almost forever."

Don, If you taste the beer now and it seems fine you might be OK. If it
already tastes sour or cabbage-like it may be too late. If you want you, can
try this; Bottle the beer with your normal priming amount and a tiny bit of
good clean active yeast. Then watch the bottles carefully. After a day, or as
soon as you see some yeast cake on the bottom of the bottles, open one bottle.
If it's carbonated, refrigerate the whole batch [very cold]. Drink them soon,
and watch out for signs of continued fermentation. [overcarbonated bottles].
If they start to pop, toss em. Also, you can bottle them in PET bottles for
safety. PETs won't be dangerous if they explode. I've never seen a PET bottle
explode but house pets on the other hand...
PETs are also available in dark brown now. 

Craig asks about brew clubs and legality.

Craig, we are you posting from? In New York for example, you can take
homebrewed beer to church or to your Mama's house. But you can't take it to
any place of business, beer related or not. You can't take it into a
homebrewshop, bar or restaurant, but you can bring it to the library or the
Firehouse. So check with the state liquor authority in the state you live in.

Best Brewing,
Alan Talman

 


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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:52:43 -0400
From: lee gross <egross at moe.cc.emory.edu>
Subject: Call for Judges for the First Round SE Nationals

 We are looking for experienced judges for the AHA south east
national beer competition to be held in Atlanta, Georgia the
last weekend in May.(That's not Memorial Day weekend, the
holiday is Monday the 25th).Flyers should be going out soon
to BJCP judges in the area.I believe judging will be done
Friday evening and Saturday before and after lunch. If you'd
like to sign up or want to have information snail mailed or
need to update your address please contact the organizer,
Rick Lubrant at (404) 636-2308 or at photodsn at mindspring.com.
Please consider registration as a judge a committment to attend.
We also need stewards, experience not necessary but helpful.
			Thank you, Lee




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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:29:06 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: Cajun Cooker defense

I use 2 Cajun Cookers ( jet burner type ) to heat two 15 gallon
kettles. The one that heats my hot water kettle is not modified.
The one that heats my boil kettle is. As they come from the
factory it is impossible to get the heat low enough so as not to
cause a boil over. ( 13 gallons ) Unless you like yellow flames,
smoke and the smell of propane.
My burner was easy to modify. It has a simple brass cap at the
end of the gas dilivery pipe with a small hole drilled in it.
You can buy these caps at a harware store. I bought one and
several drills calibrated from .040" to .046" ( actually several
of the caps as well) By experimentation I found that a .046" hole
gave me plenty of heat to keep 13 gallons at a good boil and
still have a nice blue flame. If the hole is too small the burner
will not stay lit. Also I start heating as soon as I have 2
gallons in the kettle so as I sparge it is just on the verge of a
boil. At the end of the sparge the boil is going and I have an
easy to adjust flame. Not as hot as my water tankd but plenty hot
to keep the kettle going.
Hope this helps,
Rick Pauly


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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:16:27 -0400
From: Ed Pearson <epearson at nr.infi.net>
Subject: Archaic Beer Laws

Hello,

North Carolina limits beer sold to an alcohol content of 6%. I've heard
that home brewers in Vermont (or maybe it was New England) recently
managed to change a similar situation. I am interested in contacting
anyone who might be familiar with their situation with an eye towards
applying their tactics here. I'm tired of driving many miles for my
Celebrator and Salvator. 

Private replies would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed Pearson, Secretary Winston-Salem Wort Hawgs
epearson at nr.infi.net



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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:20:36 -0700
From: "John S. Thomas" <jthomas at iinet.com>
Subject: AJ de Lange & pH

A.J. deLange  and pH meters.

The information you provide is great.  If we can keep this discussion going
long enough we can learn something about pH meter.

I understand pH increases with higher temp and the probe life expectancy
decreases with higher temperature.  Hanna Instruments probe life, I sell
their products, is about standard for the industry.   They have taken into
consideration the use factor, AJ mentions, when they publish the following
typical probe life table.

Ambient temperatures  1 to 3 years
90oC (194oF)   less than 4 months
120oC (248oF)  less than 1 month

The high temp problem is like a computer when it is turned on and off.  The
jolt of electricity into the diodes and the consequent heating and cooling
hurts.  An electrode has the same problem plus it must stay wet plus
properties change with high heat.
High temp probes for the food industry are generally made from stainless
steel.  The life of one of these very tough continuous duty probes is about
18 months.  They sell for about $600 bucks.

The picture is simple - do not expect a long life from any pH probe.
Try to buy with a replaceable probe and BNC connector.
Pay a little extra for automatic temperature compensation (ATC).
Try to buy so your meter will except other probe manufacture devices
This interchangeability is especially true with stainless steel probes.
Just because it has BNC does not mean it will work on another meter, check
before you buy.

The new pH Turtle, turns you PC into a pH meter has a BNC connector sell for
$69.50 and is rated at 122 degrees.

The Piccolo Plus sell for $155.00.  The meter is hand held has ATC and temp
in C the probe is rated at 158 degrees and is replaceable.
Both are excellent for brewers.  Sorry for the plug but mean them as sample
ideas and cost.

Will pass along the SS probe when I receive the information.
Temperature compensation is based on the buffer or calibration solution.
The temperature compensation for a mash may be different than a taco sauce
for example.  The best way to figure out this problem is send A.J. deLang
the numbers he requested and let him built a table.

Nice offer, thanks, AJ.

Hope to have more in the future
John S. Thomas
Hobby Beverage Equipment
909-676-2337
jthomas at minibrew.com





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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:57:19 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: Big Brew '98-The Jethro Gump Report

Big Brew '98...
    Being way behind in my HBD reading, due to a week off to visit ailing
relatives in North Florida...I do want to comment on the upcoming Big Brew
event.....
    Things are moving fast...too fast, in fact...but this being the
inaugural year of this event, things are expected to be hectic...
    Currently, there are  (as of 6 pm central time, 4.28.98) 91 sites
registered....I do hope that we can make  at  least 98! Interest in the event
has come from as far away as the UK, as you should be aware, and Israel,
where a group of homebrewers has expressed interest, but not yet registered
as an official site.....How about it, blokes? I would be very happy to see
some international activity.....
    The AHA is flying me out to Boulder to attend the 20the Anniversary
Party on the 1st, and to participate in the brew on the 2nd....I will also
be manning an e-mail line for the AHA, originally planned to be a chat room,
but this may not be feasible.......
    I will also be running my own computer out there,  at  the same time...and
will be available to any who wish to ask questions, talk about their site,
or even just abuse me verbally!
    I have been asked by local media about the chances of being included in
the Guinness Book....I think that the chances are good, since this kind of
event has never before been attempted, and the scope of it, across the
country and perhaps beyond, certainly would qualify, in my mind  at  least, to
establish a new category... I certainly hope so....
    But the key to this is the lighting of the burners  at  the appointed time,
and the presence of the required witnesses to verify that fact......you know
the drill....
    It seems to me that if we had 5 brewers participating, a record could be
established....but with close to 100 now in the event, I am sure that this
event will set the pace for further achievement next year.....but for this
year, I hope that you all enjoy the brewing, and in some months to
come...enjoy the brew!!!

Wall Street Journal.....
    Having been behind in my Net readings, following a trip for the first
time in 4 years to my parent's home in North Florida...I was of course met
upon my return home with a bright and positive piece on beer (imagine
that!!) on the front page of the Journal.....regarding David Ryder of
Miller....
    How refreshing to see a bit that doesn't focus on the 'horrors' of
beer.......and to see so many of the Siebel instructors quoted for the
article....."Go, Siebel!"
    WSJ....4.20.98....front page ...dead center.....

Thanks....
    To the folks  at  The Buckhead Brewery in Tallahassee, The Shipyard in
Orlando, The Hops in Orlando, and The Big River Grille on the Boardwalk  at 
Disney for their many kindnesses.......and to Gordon Specht of Lallemand,
who took the time to call from Zurich, to me on the road to Orlando, to
commit to sending a dozen 5 gram sachets of that DAMN dry yeast for local
homebrewers to use for Big Brew 98 ...
    God Bless Them, Each And Everyone.....

Cheers!
Jethro Gump

Rob Moline
Court Avenue Brewing Company,
Des Moines, Iowa.
brewer at ames.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"




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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:57:38 +1000 (EST)
From: Jon Bovard <j.bovard at student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Getting lagers going in under 24 hours.


Greetings to the collective.

I know this subject has been done to death, but I have REAL problems
getting lagers krausening in under 24 hours.
The only way I manager to do so is if I use the slurry from a previous
batch (not always convenient but..)

Here is my latest beer (a pilsner)

4.5 kg Lager malt (highly modified)
500g Dark munich

Rest 54C 30 raise to
68 rest 70 minutes
Rasie 75 10 minutes etc etc.

Forced cooled to 10C (52f for all you non-metricians)

Starter info- Pitched Czech Pilsner2278 into 2 litre starter : fermented
out. Decanted clear liquid day before brewing and added 500ml fresh wort.
Place in fridge next morning and pitched  8 hours later at same
tmeperature as wort.WAITING WAITING WAITING finally krasuen 36 hours later
(DOH!)

Can anyone shed some light on my inabiltiy to gain rapid fermentation
Much obliged
Jon In Brisbane
Home of One of Japans newest breweries...



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:55:38 +1000
From: "David Hill" <davidh at melbpc.org.au>
Subject: Magnets

There is an article in this weeks NEW SCIENTIST magazine which reports some
study done researching the sterilising effects of magnetic field. The study
was involved in the maintenance of sanitation levels in swimming pools.

apparently magnets on their own had no discernible effects on the water.
However clarino sanitation was more effective for longer when combined with
a magnetic field.

Several hypotheses were proposed to explain the recorded results.

Researchers conclusion was that they did observe an effect and that they
could not adequately explain it.
David Hill.   davidh at melbpc.org.au      :-)>



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:37:28 -0500
From: results <results at win.bright.net>
Subject: Hop information wanted

Anybody know anything about this new hop variety Vanguard? Experience a
plus.

Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas, WI
http://www.win.bright.net/~results


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:44:09 -0400
From: "Tkach, Christopher" <tkach at cabletron.com>
Subject: Olives in Stout?/Re: Green Guinness Bottles

Since the queue is pretty short, I'm going to
throw out an odd question in hopes that someone
out there knows what I'm talking about...

Out of the last 5 or 6 brewpub stouts that I've
tasted I've sort of noticed a similar flavor to
a few of them that I can only describe as a green
olive flavor, sometimes its really pronounced,
other times it just lingers in the background.  Has
anyone else tasted this and know what it is?  I've
only experienced it in stouts that I've had at
brewpubs.


Re: Green Guinness Bottles

Mark in Kalamazoo  Writes:
      "The Optimist sees that the glass is half full,
       The Pessimist sees that the glass is half empty,
       The Engineer sees that the glass is twice the
                         size it needs to be!"

I always thought that was the factor of safety!!  :)


 - Chris
Newmarket, NH


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:56:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Photography; Hawthorne effect; pots

Greetings to all.

 - - - - -
Jim Booth writes:
> ...  The act of experimenting created the
> change, not the particular treatment.  This became known as the
> "Greenfield, or Greenwell or Greensomething (help Jeff!...someone!)
> effect",  the name of the factory where the experiment occured.

Hawthorne effect.  My reference is "Peopleware," DeMarco and Lister:
"In the spring of 1932, efficiency experts ran a series of tests at the
Hawthorne Western Electric Company ... Loosely stated, it says that people
perform better when they're trying something new."

 - - - - -
dbgrowler at juno.com writes:
> >And I can imagine that magnetism has an effect on the human body,
> >otherwise an MRI would come out blank.
> 
> Using this logic, wouldn't you have to conclude that conventional
> photography has an effect on your body?

The analogy would be to light.  If light didn't interact with the human
body, a photograph would be blank.

This doesn't prove that it's a medically significant effect.  OTOH, ever
look into a strobe flash?  I'd expect a low dosage, such as used in
photography, to require a long exposure time -- like the full-spectrum
lighting used to treat some cases of seasonal depression.

It's not a conclusion.  I can imagine it -- it suggests a possibility.

 - - - - -
Dave Burley says:
> Sam Mize says of my advice to the brewer to use two cheap
> 4 gallon SS pots when he asked for a recommendation on
> what size pot to use with his electric stove application:

No, he didn't.

He asked about doing full-volume boils, and specifically about straddling
burners.  Pot size was not even the subject of the discussion.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:28:00 -0400
From: Thomas Kramer <tkramer at monad.net>
Subject: Fwd: portland org brew pubs

>
>I am going to be in Portland Oregon in may, I am interested in brew pub
recommendations, I will be staying down town (hotel benson?)  with out a
car, so I would be most interested in near by places, or places that could
be reached easily by public transportation. I read in mondays Wall street
Journal that there s a brew pub tour in town does any one known anything
about it (name phone number's etc) and is it at all worth doing.
>
>tom NH 



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:18:20 -0400
From: Harold L Bush <harrybush at compuserve.com>
Subject: Reverse Osmosis (and the Hawthorne Effect-NOT)

I have a copy of a three year old post on building your own (relatively)
cheap RO filter from Will Self- he takes a replacement cartridge from a
Sears unit and glues his own PVC fittings to it.  Has anyone tried this
lately, with success?  How much do complete RO units cost? Is there a
website with this kind of info that you can point me to?

 Once you have RO water, of  course, now you have to add the appropriate
salts for the style you are brewing.  Three years ago AJ deLange posted a

very thorough series on approximating the minerals contained in the water

analyses of famous brewers' water supplies.  My only problem is that I'm
having difficulty finding the "executive summary"- you know, the part 
that
says " for Burton water use 1 part eye of newt"- has this data been
compiled, digested updated, tabled or otherwise treated since the 
original
posts, and where can I find it?  Otherwise, I'll dig the originals out of

the archives.  


One more note on the magnetic water treatment thread-  Dennis Johnson
pointed me to a Consumer Reports article (Feb. '96, p. 8) where they
installed a $535 Descal-A-Matic (gotta love that name!) magnetic water
treatment device in a staffer's house in a parallel arrangement- two 
water
heaters, one with the device preceding it, one without.  After two years,

they cut apart the water heater tanks and found equal scaling on the one
with the magnetically treated water and the one with untreated water.  So

at least I've seen the results of one experiment- admittedly, a poor one,

without the appropriate statistical analysis that any good experiment 
MUST
have ; - )   -that supports our intuition on this.  Funny thing is that 
the
CR  article also contains the sentence, "Magnetic water descalers are 
used
in industrial applications and claim to help, though even the 
manufacturers
can't agree on how they keep scale from forming."

My apologies to those who insist on a literal translation of "Homebrew
related topics" for my original post leading to disscussions of doctors,
quacks, chiropractors, magnet therapy belts, MRI's, the placebo effect, 
the
Greenfield effect, the Hawthorne effect, etc., but that's what keeps us 
all
Renaissance  individuals.  I'm just glad I didn't mention acupuncture.

Oops....

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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:28:16 -0400
From: "J. Matthew Saunders" <saunderm at vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Belgians

Mike,

>In addition, North Carolina has a law restricting the sale of beer w/an
>alcohol level greater than 6%. Are there any places to purchase beers
>that fall outside that range, such as some of the Belgian Lambics and/or
>Chimays (sp?).

I work part time for a business in Blacksburg, VA called "Vintage Cellar".
We have the most complete selections of Belgians you can find short of
traveling to Belgium.  We carry everything from Chimay to Westmalle.  The
store has many brands of Lambics with all varieties including geuze,
framboise, peche, and kriek.

To get there, travel up I-81 to exit 118 (the exit for Virginia Tech).
Follow the signs towards Blacksburg, west on 460.  After passing a number
of car dealerships you will have a choice of traveling forward into
Christiansburg or peeling off to the left.  Peel to the left.  Eventually
this road will bring you out beside a K-Mart on the right and a Super
Wal-Mart on the left.  Follow this road until you see a sign that indicates
To Virginia Tech, and Bluefield West Virginia.  There will also be a sign
that says 460 Business and on the right, the Blacksburg Inn.  Head down the
right (460 business) and follow this through three stop lights.  You will
see two strip malls, one on the right and one on the left.  On the left
there will be a Harris Teeter and on the right a grocery store called
"Wades".  We are located in strip mall on the right a few doors down from
Wades.  If you'd like to call in advance, the phone number is
1-800-672-9463 or 1-540-953-2675.

Cheers!
Matthew.

- -----------
http://dogstar.bevd.blacksburg.va.us  The Arts in Technology.




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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:29:39 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Measuring SG / Munich Malt 

>>>>> "Mort" == Mort O'Sullivan <tarwater at brew-master.com> writes:

    Mort> reagents (bromobenzene+kerosene for the gradient, and copper
    Mort> sulfate for the standards). 

Doesn't sound like something I want sitting around my house for the
kids to find.  :-)

=Spencer



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:35:11 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Oregon fruit products/chiropractors and a question 

>>>>> "Eric" == Eric R Tepe <erictepe at fuse.net> writes:

    Eric> First- A question. When in the fermentation process is high
    Eric> krausen? 

Well, my current batch provided a dramatic illustration of "high
krauesen" yesterday.  I pitched about 4 ounces of yeast slurry (YCKC
"Strathcona"), which I had top-cropped from a previous batch.  I had 5
gallons of beer in a 7 gallon bucket. This was Saturday night.
Sunday, it was going great, and even better on Monday.  Yesterday
(Tuesday) morning, I decided to take a peek.  The yeast was crawling
out the top of the bucket!

Now that's high krauesen!

=Spencer


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:42:27 EDT
From: KennyEddy <KennyEddy at aol.com>
Subject: O'Doul's Amber

Marshall George writes:

"Richard Gardner asks if anyone has tried the new O'Douls Amber, and if
it's decent or not.  Well, I thought it was pretty good, accepting the
fact that most NA beers are difficult in retaining full body and any
sort of hopping.  It has some body to it, but not much in the way of
bitterness.  It does have a nice amber color though."

I tried the O'Doul's amber at last year's GABF and agree that it's a definite
improvement over O'Doul's regular.  Personally I still prefer Coors Cutter
(now simply "Coors Non-Alcoholic") for my $3 a sixer, but I would take
exception to Marshall's comment about NA's lacking body and hopping.  I find
Kaliber, Buckler, and Clausthaler to be pretty dang tasty NA's, with a
definite hop presence.

As for brewing one yourself, while home production of truly NA beer is
practically impossible, try brewing a 1.030-ish wort using a low-attenuating
extract like Laaglander or a hot (160F+) single-infusion mash and a low-
attenuating yeast.  This will produce a low-alcohol "LA" beer (~2% abv) with
all the hops you care to add to it.  You can also go the "malta" route by
brewing either a low-gravity (~1.013) hopped wort (to simulate finished beer)
or making a ~1.050 hopped wort (for a sweeter soft-drink-like beverage),
chill, carbonate, and drink it unfermented.  Sounds gross but it's really
pretty good.

I have an article on NA production on my website if you want to pursue it
further.

*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:15:18 -0700
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Re:  Harsh Beer; Sparge Water

Greeting all...I have been reading the thread about sparge water
temperature and harsh beer with interest.  However, I am somewhat
confused about the temperature of the sparge water. In my system, I used
an insulated bucket as a reservoir for the sparge water and deliver it
to the lauter run via a Phil's rotating sparger arm.  Although I have
never measured it, I'm sure that there is a significant drop in the
sparge water temperature as it is enters the sparge arm and then as the
water droplets fall through the roughly 12 inches of air to the top of
the grain bed.  I have reasoned that the 170 F specification applies to
the temperature the water should be AS IT CONTACTS THE GRAIN BED - thus,
the temperature in my hot water tank should be higher than 170 F to
compensate for the heat loss that will occur as the water is delivered
to the grain bed.  Does this rationale make sense?  Is there a better
way of determining whether the sparge water temperature is correct, such
as measuring the temperature of the grain bed itself?  Thanks in advance
for your replies,

Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:59:54 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Rice/Rice Extract

Barry Allen asks about a source of rice/rice extract.  Hard to believe a
homebrew store owner can't find rice extract but then I don't know who
his suppliers are, but it's a regular item at most of the stores I've
been in.  As far as rice goes, almost any rice from the grocery store
can be used, but it needs to be boiled to gelatinize the starch as has
been explained elsewhere on HBD before.  I've got 5 lbs of rice powder
that I bought at an asian food store for just this purpose.  Bulk rice
is usually cheaper there as well.

Dave Houseman 



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:50:21 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Clinitest, Invert Sugar, NMR/MRI

Brewsters:

AlK comments that he will keep maligning Clinitest every
time I suggest it. The difference between us is that I've been
using it for a few decades and Al has never tried it and
doesn't understand the chemistry. Don't let his comments
stop you from trying it.
- --------------------------------------
Mike Megown wants to know what Invert Cane sugar is and
how he can get it. Don't bother trying it. Just use Cane sugar
and the yeast will invert it for you with invertase.  Recipes
which use citric or some other acid and a long boil to invert it
just put acid in your beer for no good reason.
- --------------------------------------
Dean Fikar says to my comment on MRI:

>Actually, MRI is based on radio freq. energy produced by
nuclei (mostly
>hydrogen) resonating in a relatively strong magnetic field.

Actually I probably know more about this than you, as it
sounds from your comment.  The nuclei do not produce
radio frequency energy. The purpose of the magnetic field
is to align certain nuclei ( depending on what kind of nuclear
spectrometer is being used) and when the magnetic field
produces an energy difference ( those nuclei *with* versus
those *against* the field)  which is equal to the radio frequency
energy E = hF then the radio frequency is absorbed as
the  nuclei flip from the lower energy ( with the field) to
the higher energy state (aligned against the field).
The absorption of radio frequency energy as a function
of magnetic field strength at the sample is the plot chemists
usually see when they do an NMR spectrum, although it
is often reported as a ppm shift from a standard.  

- ---------------------------------------------  


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:29:26 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: Clean Burners

 Recently George De Piro asked
< Which burners can be run cleanly at all settings?

I have a low pressure 35K BTU burner that I bought from Brewers Resource a
few years ago. They don't seem to carry it anymore but when I ordered it,
the burner was drop-shipped to me. It is made in China and was shipped from
Hurricane Products in California ( This is from memory guys, the paperwork
is long since gone). 
The frame is very heavy cast iron and there are two circular concentric
burner rings with the outside ring split into a right and left half. There
are three separate gas flow valves, one each for the three segments so it is
infinitely variable. I only do 5 gallon batches and use 3 lbs of gas per
batch ( a standard tank is about 20 lbs of gas) . This is for everything,
water ,sparge, 90 minute boil etc. I love the burner. Due to the split
burner. I can put all the heat on one side and really roll the boil without
overheating locally, as George described happens with the 170K BTU
flamethrowers.

I get no sooting under normal use. The only time I have gotten soot is if I
have only the small center ring on by itself at the lowest flame height and
it is also windy.It is always minimal.

I have recently seen some really nice low pressure burners at Alan Talman's
homebrew shop. I believe that they are custom made to his specs. I haven't
used one but Alan is quite knowledgable and honest. I am sure he can fill
you in if you query him about the sooting behavior.

No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.  I find him very friendly and,
since his store is part of a hardware store, he often has some really
interesting custom gear that he assembles and packages from items in the
store. Usually sold almost at the cost of the parts that went into the item.
His web site is 
 www.homebrewshop.com
 and his E-mail is
 AlanT at homebrewshop.com

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY



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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:17:05 -0400
From: Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com>
Subject: RE: Sabco RIMS

I like mine quite a bit, mainly because transfering liquids from vessel to
vessel so easy more than for the RIMS process, per se.  My only big
complaint is that the single orifice jet burners aren't very efficient or
adjustable when fitted for natural gas (as opposed to propane).  Anything
less than full blast and I get a sooty yellow flame.  Also I don't have
enough gas pressure to power more than one burner at a time at full blast.
Throttling back during the boil is tough and temp boosts go more than 1deg.
C. per minute for most mashes.

Temp. control is a dream and the clear mash runoff works as advertised.  I
can't verify that RIMS beer is more malty since I don't have a standard for
comparison.

- -- Art
asteinm at pipeline.com


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:05:39 -0400
From: Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com>
Subject: Barley Trade War

EU says U.S. barley row blown out of proportion

BRUSSELS, April 29 (Reuters) - The European Commission on Wednesday
dismissed a furore in the United States over a recent EU barley sale as
being ``out of proportion.''

The European Union executive said the sale of 30,000 tonnes of Finnish
barley, carrying a $50 per tonne EU subsidy, to California was above board
and met international obligations.

U.S. barley growers have campaigned to stop the sale which, they claim, has
undermined local markets.

- -- Art
asteinm at pipeline.com


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:32:59 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Stout

When I first read Michael Lewis' Stout book, I had a similar
reaction to Pat's.  

D. Burley wrote:
>... Lewis used spider diagrams to locate
>a "Stout Taste" in an attempt to define the style.  The fact that
>these were difficult to pin down makes his point that the
>only *operative* definition of Stout at the beginning of his
>taste experiments was that "Stout is a black beer that the
>brewer defines as stout."  Perhaps this statement is the
>one which Pat is referring to and he missed Lewis'  point.

I don't think we missed the point, I think Lewis missed the
point.  

I wasn't interested in looking at all the commercially 
available "stouts" and analyzing them.  I was interested in the 
history of stouts, and I wanted Lewis to then condense that into
a definition of stout.  If he wanted to, he could then compare
commercial stouts to his definition.

I think he took the easy way out by looking at commercial beers
and saying "gee, these are all different.  I guess there is no common
definition of a stout".  

He doesn't seem to have aimed his book at a home/craftbrewing
audience, and this idea is echoed by the fact that he had to get 
someone else to write the actual brewing section.  Makes me wonder
if the data analysis was an excercise given to his grad students....

That said, I did like the analysis part and the brewery surveys were
interesting.  But taken in the context of the whole series, this book
stands out as seeming to have different goals and a different audience.

My two cents.

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:53:53 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: IBU estimates

Steve Jackson wrote (re: IBU estimates):
>I think this might be one of those cases where the desire to be
>technically correct might be counter-productive. Instead of beginning
>to doubt whatever calculations one might get from Tinseth's formula
>(or anyone else's for that matter), I think it's more important to
>stick with whatever works for you insofar as allowing you to
>consistently and reasonably predict how bitter one's beer will be.
>
I agree with Steve.  You can try to "calibrate" your numbers with
commercial beers.  If you brew a beer where your estimate comes
out to 40, compare the bitterness to Anchor Steam.  I think Sierra
Nevada Pale Ale is supposed to have almost 40 IBUs as well.

This kind of subjective comparison is difficult, but should be
informative, especially with similar types of beer styles.  Also, I
think Garetz describes in his book how to use hop oil added to
a lightly hopped beer of known bitterness (e.g. Bud) to calibrate
your beer.  We did this at a club meeting once and it worked out
pretty well.  

************
Michael Rose wrote:
>>Years ago GE had the notion the lighting
>>environment would change the productivity of workers, so the lighting
>>was redone and productivity went up.  They tried a different lighting
>>and productivity improved.....  
>Its called the 'Hawthrone Effect'. It was done in an aircraft parts
>factory in 1943(?)... in Hawthrone CA.

Sounds to me more like a poorly designed experiment rather than
an actual "effect".
Personally, I think productivity is directly related to the quality of the
coffee.....

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 16:54:28 EDT
From: Tim.Watkins at analog.com
Subject: Decoction

Hey all,

I've seen a lot of threads on decoction mashing lately.....  I've also seen 
a lot of discussion about most malts today not needing a protein rest.  Not 
to restart that thread......

I want to try a decoction mash sometime in the near future (read:  next 
time I brew).  I'm curious as to what schedule to use for a simple (as can 
be) single decoction.  Everything I've seen so far has you strike in the 
protein rest range, and then single decoct up to sacc. rest.  Is there 
another way of doing it?  Perhaps in the acid rest range?  But wouldn't 
that require the decoction to be huge (>50%) in order to hit the sacc. 
rest?


help!

Tim in
Lowell, MA


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 17:23:18 est
From: paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: Beefier propane burner needed

HBDers,

I've got (2) Metal Fusion 170K ring burners attached to an angle
iron 12" X 18" frame that's starting to show its wear.  The manifold
connecting the double burners isn't made to take the heat generated
to boil 30 gals. IMO.   I had to order a new manifold because the last
time I used the rig, I had a gas leak near one of the burner's adjustment
knobs.  Fire would spit out periodically during the whole boil.  

I'm wondering if I could just buy a industrial-quality rectangular single
burner that I could adapt to fit my 12 X 18 frame.  More importantly,
I would need a beefier manifold and adjustment knob.

Anyone know a source?

Thanks
Mike Spinelli
Mikey's Monster Brew
Cherry Hill NJ  



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---