---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Back to Brewing (George Forsyth)
  phospine (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
  Re: Magnetic Beer (John Bowerman)
  Maris Otter Group Response to recent debate (breWorld)
  Re: Invert Sugar Question (Tony Barnsley)
  Re: Clinitest, Invert Sugar, NMR/MRI (dfikar)
  Clean Burners (Harold L Bush)
  Stout Definition ("David R. Burley")
  Portland Brewpubs ("George, Marshall E.")
  Decoction / hot ferment / long lager lag / olive stout (George_De_Piro)
  pH, Oregon Fruit, sasquatch (Paul Niebergall)
  What is a stout, was Re: How Stout is Lewis? (Spencer W Thomas)
  breathalyzers- (Kevin TenBrink)
  Care and feeding of a Gott mash/lauter tun (Matthew Arnold)
  Rice Syrup Info Provided (Barry Allen)
  BT Subscriptions (EFOUCH)
  Hop Trellis (ASCII warning) (John Varady)
  bud/orange/Munich/Barleywine/magnetic/pH/invert/decoct (Al Korzonas)
  woops/burners (Al Korzonas)
  mash hops (Stephen Cavan)
  Re: What is a stout, was Re: How Stout is Lewis? ("Hans E. Hansen")
  NRM / MRI ("Frederick J. Wills")
  reusing primary fermenter yeast cake (Adam Holmes)
  magnet whoops ("David Hill")


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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:17:01 -0500
From: George Forsyth <gforse at nevia.net>
Subject: Back to Brewing

With due respect to all involved, and wishing no flames, righteous
indignation, or first amendment protestations, I have a suggestion....	

Let's use the HBD for its intended purpose--a discussion of beer, it's
recipes, brewing techniques, regulation, legalities, enjoyment, etc, all
with an emphasis on Home Brewing. If members want to praise or condemn
chiropractic, magnetic therapy, homeopathic treatment, acupuncture,
moxibustion, herbal medicine, vitamins, dianetics etc., there are many
other forums available for those purposes.

Thank you, and Cheers!


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:15:59 -0300 (GMT-0300)
From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Subject: phospine           


I was recently adviced by the person who sells grains to me, that grains
are usually treated with some kind of Aluminun Phosphorous which generates
phosphine. I read the label of the product and it says that 3 GM tablets
generates 1 GM of phosphine gas. This person told me that one tablet can 
be used to desinfect 1000 kg. In this way, bug`s growth is avoided. The
grain is usually treated with this product for 12 hours or longer. After
that, grains are available for humans; desinfected and free of bugs.

Do you thinks that this desinfected grains (wheat or barley) can be used
for brewing?

Thanks for your reply.

Jorge Blasig



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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:20:01 -0700
From: John Bowerman <jbowerma at kfalls.net>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Beer

Harry Houk wrote:

> Magnetic Beer. It'll surround and confuse all the bad cells in
the body.
> It'll straighten and unblock arteries, veins and capillaries.
Your dog
> will seem smarter after only sniffing the stuff. Your kidneys
and colon
> will be cleaner than distilled water. It'll clean out your house

> plumbing too!

 ... and if you drink enough of it at night, you can just stick
yourself to the
refridgerator instead of needing a bed (except for pro ... uhh
 ...  recreation).



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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:43:30 +0000
From: breWorld <intray at breworld.com>
Subject: Maris Otter Group Response to recent debate

Maris Otter Home Brew Forum

Mort you have got it pretty much spot on.


The Plant Breeding Institute who were a government organisation whose
address was in "Maris Lane" and prior to joining the European Union it was
possible for a plant breeder to name his varieties with names which denoted
his involvement with the variety (like a trade name). "Maris" was the
chosen name for the Plant Breeding Institute. Incidentally the organisation
was purchased from the government by Unilever during the mid '80s, who have
just announced their own plans to sell off these plant breeding activities.

The National Institute of Agricultural Botany is an independent body who
asses new varieties of productive plants for their advantages over those
existing in the market place. Its work is generally slanted toward
agronomic importance followed by end market use, like suitability for
malting and brewing. 

Thus in the mid 1950s Maris Otter was "convinced", or more accurately,
selected to suit the brewers of the day who were mainly brewing cask ales.
It has proved to be very, very suitable. This is not without technical
merit. Its starches gelatinise over a wider temperature range in the mash
tun. The wort drains freely and the ale 'drops bright' (clears) quickly
upon arrival in the cellar. Many brewers ascribe unmatchable taste profiles
to it especially at lower alcohols.

There must be more to it than this. Everywhere I go and ask the question,
"Why do you brew with Maris Otter malt?" The answer comes back, "because it
is the best."

This testimony is proven time and time again in beer competitions, most
recently the 1997/8 CAMRA Champion Winter Beer was brewed by Ian Hornsey
using Maris Otter Malt.

The track record shows Maris Otter was chosen for a particular use, and has
yet to be surpassed for quality malt. It is the brewers' choice but not the
accountants'.

Maris Otter survives. Its production is matched to the market demand; its
producers can increase the supply if necessary and it will continue to
flourish for as long as there are brewers who appreciate its value, not its
price.

With kind regards

Gordon Gowland
The Maris Otter Group

http://www.breworld.com/malt/maris.html


++++++++

========================================================================
Email:  intray at breworld.com	URL:    http://www.breworld.com

Stay tuned with all the information on http://www.breworld.com/news/

breworld Ltd	The Brewery	80 Parsons Green Lane	London	SW6 4HU

0171-610 6448 (Tel)			0171-610 6447 (Fax)
====================================================


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:15:52 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <Tony.Barnsley at riva-group.com>
Subject: Re: Invert Sugar Question

In HBD #2700, Mike Megown asked about invert sugar. The easiest source
of this in the UL is Lyons Golden Syrup. Some homebrew stores carry
Dried invert sugar in blocks. 

You can make it at home by boiling a syrup of cane sugar (1 lb./pint
water) with a tsp. of citric acid. When it takes on a golden colour (15
Mins?) turn off the heat and allow to cool. You then neutralise the acid
with some calcium carbonate. (This is from memory I had to do it when I
made a liqueur kit and all the ingredients apart from the cane sugar and
water were supplied)

You could substitute glucose for the Invert cane sugar

Wassail (Tony, Blackpool, Lancashire, UK)


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:21:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: dfikar at flash.net
Subject: Re: Clinitest, Invert Sugar, NMR/MRI


>NMR/MRI ("David R. Burley")
>Dean Fikar says to my comment on MRI:
>
>>Actually, MRI is based on radio freq. energy produced by
>nuclei (mostly
>>hydrogen) resonating in a relatively strong magnetic field.
>
>Actually I probably know more about this than you, as it
>sounds from your comment. 

Maybe you do but your main point, from what I remember, was that the body
isn't affected by magnetic fields - at least in a way that lends itself
to medical imaging.  This is not true. Protons are tiny dipoles and most
definitely are affected by magnetic fields in an MRI.  Sam's comment that
in effect said that imaging would not be possible without the body's
nuclei being susceptible to magnetic fields was correct.  Your reply
was that MRI had nothing to do with the body's response to magnetic fields.
That is incorrect and was the only point I was trying to make.
 
>The nuclei do not produce radio frequency energy.

That is correct and I left out one important step in the process.  The RF
receive coils (made of copper, I think) convert the magnetic flux into RF
signal which then is processed into the image.  I *don't* understand
this very well so feel free to expound on the process.  :-)  

- ---------------------------------------------
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar at flash.net)



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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:33:59 -0400
From: Harold L Bush <harrybush at compuserve.com>
Subject: Clean Burners

Jim Bentson mentioned a neat 35 kBTU burner that he bought years ago. 

Funny he should mention that, because I just saw what may be the exact
burner in a Northern Hydraulics flyer (no. 589) . It's on page 5.  They
list it at 35 kBTU, it has three separate valves on the front, it looks
like it has two coencentric burner rings, and all for $40  (plus $15 for
the hose /regulator assembly)- certainly much  less than I paid for my
Superb (which I am very satisfied with).

For those interested, Northern Hydraulics is at 800-533-5545.  The cat. 
no.
of the burner is 330973-F589, and the hose/reg. is item #330972-F589.  No

affiliation, just a "not-always-satisfied" customer.

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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:52:43 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Stout Definition

Brewsters:

Bryan Gros says about Lewis' book::

>I wasn't interested in looking at all the commercially 

>available "stouts" and analyzing them.  I was interested in the 

>history of stouts, and I wanted Lewis to then condense that into
>a definition of stout.

Actually Lewis spent a lot of time on the history of stouts,
which I also enjoyed.  He made the point that while others
have said that Stout came from Porter, he isn't sure based
on the evidence.  So even that isn't apparently clear on an
historical basis, let alone a hard fast rule for "this is a porter
and this is just a black beer and THIS is a Stout."
Remember that brewing is an art and therefore each
brewer-artist has his own interpretation. We are the
ones who presumably need the label. "Ooops,  sorry
Dali but that definitely is not a cubist painting. You'll have
to call it something else" just doesn't wash.

Remember that the current definition of style as put
forth by the BJCP is one of using *current* commercial
beers and whatever the brewer wishes to call them as
standards. I understand the necessity, but, like you, I
find this to not be what I am looking for and
so I have little patience for the beer police when I
make what I like to drink and call it what I like.
However, Lewis is consistent with this BJCP position
of defining style.

Brian interpreted Lewis' whole book by saying:

> "gee, these are all different.  I guess there is no common
>definition of a stout".  


Actually, if you spend a little time really reading the book and
looking at the plots you will find that there certain common
grounds, Thick head, black color, high body (although I must
say that recent tastings of keg Guiness has left me with a
sensation that body is becoming less of a characteristic of
their stout), acetaldehyde, roasty/burnt, no diacetyl,  etc. but
that there are different definitions by all the brewers of what
they mean when they say "stout" and he was making that point.
Remember that his definitions of taste were within a different
framework as he explained the difficulty of trying to define the
roast/burnt flavor profile.  If you were to compare this to other
beers, all stouts would be jammed into the upper 90% of this
definition.  Therefore many of the tasting profiles were within
a stout framework - i.e comparing stouts to stouts.

As I recall, even Guiness brews a different Stout in the Caribbean
and the Far East than they do in Ireland, if you believe the
questionnaires filled out by the various brewers at these locations.
I find this credible, since based on tasting,  I know that Lowenbrau
in France is not the same beer as Lowenbrau in Germany.
It is is brewed to French tastes. I believe the Germans would like
to and some are brewing different beers for the US than they
are for home.  Anyone who has tasted Dutch beer there and
here knows that this is not the same beer. So even the
definition of a style by a single brewer can be different   


As for defining historically what a beer was like,
it is difficult and I would say impossible given the major
changes in hops varieties, hops storage,  barley
strains, malting and kilning processes, brewing process
controls, fermentation vessels, kegs, etc., etc., since the 1850s.
CAMRA has done some work in this area and I suggest
you explore their offerings.
- ------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK   


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:59:06 -0500
From: "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com>
Subject: Portland Brewpubs

Thomas Kramer asks where the brewpubs are in the downtown area near the
Benson hotel.  As a former Oregonian, you will have some walking
selections, but not much at least downtown.  The Widmer Gasthaus is
within walking distance, and any concierge (sp?) worth his salt should
be able to get you there from the Benson (I can't remember the address).

However, what I recommend to you is a trip to the Mission Theater on
1624 NW Glisan.  It may be a bit of a walk (9 or 10 blocks, but the bus
is cheap), but once you're there you will encounter something unlike
anywhere that I've seen.  McMenamins Brothers runs the place.  It was a
buck to get in, and they show movies (sometimes first run, sometimes
classics) in an old renovated theater.  You also can order dinner
(somewhat typical brewpub fare) with a good selection of their own
brews.  I recommend both the Crystal Ale and my favorite, Hammerhead.
I'm sure that more people will help here.

The bus tour thing is there also, but if my memory serves me right, it's
something like $50, and takes all day.

Marshall George
Edwardsville, Illinois


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:10:57 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Decoction / hot ferment / long lager lag / olive stout

     Hi all,
     
     Tim asks how he can perform a single decoction while avoiding the 
     protein rest temperature range.
     
     This is something that I've been playing with for a little while now.  
     There are several options, depending on your system and the 
     saccharification temperature you are shooting for.
     
     If you can supply heat to your mash tun, then you can rest the main 
     mash at 40C (104F), pull a really big decoction, add it back quickly 
     with much stirring, and then use your heat source to get up to the 
     desired sacc. temp if you missed.  You should be able to hit 60C 
     (140F) by adding the decoction back in this manner.
     
     You could also mash in at 65C (149F) or so, pull a decoction, and add 
     it back to bring the temp to 70-75C (158-167F).  You can let the 
     decoction cool off (or hurry it along by adding some cool water) 
     before you add it back so as not to overshoot 75C.
     
     If you rest the main mash anywhere from 45-55C (113-132F) during the 
     decoction, you will end up with reduced body and head retention.  I 
     know, I've done it (several times)!
     ------------------------------------
     Dave in Seattle tells us about his warm (78F, 25.5C) 1.100 Barley wine 
     fermentation.  He is wondering if he can avoid having this batch turn 
     into "jet fuel."
     
     By jet fuel I assume Dave means higher alcohols (also called fusel 
     alcohols).  These taste relatively unpleasant (harsh) and seem to give 
     me (and others I know) instant hang overs.
     
     There aren't many opportunities for one to say "always" or "never" in 
     this craft, but this is as close as you can get:
     
     increased temperature = increased yeast growth = increased higher 
     alcohol production (aka, jet fuel).
     
     Just to further depress you, higher gravity fermentations also yield 
     increased higher alcohols.  Under-pitching exacerbates the problem.
     
     On the bright side, given enough time, the higher alcohols will 
     oxidize and the beer will take on a nice, aged, sherry-like character 
     that is appropriate (even desirable) in barley wines.  Time heals some 
     wounds, patience is the key!
     --------------------------------
     John in Brisbane asks why he can't achieve an acceptable lag time when 
     pitching lager yeast.  He leaves out some important info:  wort 
     aeration method, starter aeration method, and starter temperatures.
     
     My guess is that he fermented the starter at higher-than-lager 
     fermentation temperature.  This could be part of the problem:  after 
     the starter fermented out, he put it in the fridge.  This cold shock 
     would very likely slow the yeast down a tad bit.  It then took a while 
     to wake up after pitching time.
     
     This is compounded by the fact that the wort was underpitched, too.  
     Because of the lower temperatures, you want to pitch even more yeast 
     for a lager than you would for an ale.  The small brewer rule of thumb 
     that ale yeasts can be stepped up 10X in volume at each pitching 
     should be reduced to 5X for lager yeasts at cool temperatures (i.e., a 
     one gallon starter for every 5 gallon batch).
     -------------------------------------
     Chris in NH tells us about a stout that he has had that tastes like 
     olives.  What follows is pure speculation:
     
     While I've never had the beer he is referring to, I have evaluated a 
     beer in competition that smelled like olives.  It was a smoked 
     Doppelbock.  My guess was that the phenolics (from the smoke) blended 
     with the malt and some esters to make an aroma that I perceived as 
     olives.
     
     Stouts, with their high percentage of burnt malts, can have noticeable 
     phenols.  Perhaps this is part of the source of the olive character.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro (Malting away in Nyack, NY)


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:38:34 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: pH, Oregon Fruit, sasquatch

n HBD 2697, A.J. writes:

>>I suggest that these folks cool the sample to room temperature and
>>subtract 0.1 pH from their room temperature readings.

>>While on the subject, I'd like to ask that other brewers who take
>>readings at the mash and or boil temperatures start taking readings on
>>cooled samples as well as the hot ones. I'd like to see if we can pin
>>down the pH rise as a function of temperature difference, beer type
>>and starting water composition. 

This is an excellent idea.  However, trying to measure pH differences as
low as 0.1 pH unit in an un-controlled home situation, with the type of pH
meters typically used by homebrewers (less than 200 dollars - cheap),
the results will be subject to too much variance.  I have taken many,
many pH readings, with many types of meters, under field and laboratory
conditions.  Most of the time the meters were calibrated to at least one
(usually three) standard solutions.  It has been a very rare occasion
when the value that was measured didn't jump around plus or minus 0.5
pH units while attempting to get the correct reading.  It all depends on
when you get disgusted enough to pull the probe and call it good.  Even if
the value does stabilize, most meters used by home brewers simply are
not that accurate and have not been calibrated prior to each use

Also consider that calibration solutions become contaminated with time
and that most people do not keep fresh standards in stock (not expired). 
Drippage from one container to the next,  not using a separate container
while calibrating, pouring used solution back into the stock jar, and
dipping the probe directly from stock solution jar to stock solution jar
without rinsing.   Or rinsing the probe with tap water prior to calibrating. 
Anyway, all of this leads to accuracies problems that far exceed 0.1 pH
unit.

In the grand scheme of things, you could just as easily ADD 0.1 pH unit to
the cooled wort sample rather that SUBTRACT 0.1.  It 's not going to
make a difference at all in the finished beer.

 ..............
Oregon Fruit Puree -

I made a raspberry stout back in January.  It was your fairly basic stout
recipe but, a little on the heavy side (o.g.= 1.055).  At the end of the boil, I
dumped a can of Oregon Fruit raspberry puree (1.5 kg) into the kettle and
immediately shut off the burner.  I let it steep about five minutes, opened
the kettle valve, through my counterflow wort chiller, and into the carboy
it went.  (EZ Masher strainer kept the little raspberry and hop particles
out of fermenter). 

I have made quite a few fruit flavored stouts (mostly cherry) using
various flavor extracts.  This stout has been by far, the best I have ever
made.  The extracts always seemed to add a fake kind of flavor
(sometimes overwhelming).  This time, the fruit puree added an excellent
raspberry flavor.  A hint of tartness and lots of nice fresh raspberry
flavor and aroma.  But not so overwhelming that it is off balance.  The
Oregon fruit puree is a little expensive (I think I paid about 9 dollars for
the can), but well worth it.  I thinking of adding a can to my pLambic that
has been brewing since last September.  No affiliation, blah, blah, blah.

 ..............

Harry writes about us PROVING that the clear wave DOES NOT work.

Get real Harry - I saw Sasquatch this weekend after downing a few
barley wines and wandering about the woods after midnight.  I think it is
up to you to prove I didn't see it.

 .................


Brew on

Paul NIebergall



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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:47:05 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: What is a stout, was Re: How Stout is Lewis? 

Perhaps this note belongs in Judgenet, but since it's down...

>>>>> "Hans" == Hans E Hansen <hansh at teleport.com> writes:

    Hans> I have been trying to figure out the difference between
    Hans> Stout and Porter for some time. I have read every book and
    Hans> magazine source that I can find, but get conflicting
    Hans> answers.  I find it comforting to know that Lewis doesn't
    Hans> know either.

As a BJCP judge, I need to speak up here.  We *MUST* continue to
distinguish between Porter and Stout.  These are often the two largest
categories in a homebrew competition.  If we didn't distinguish them,
the poor judges would be totally overwhelmed.  It really doesn't
matter much what the distinction IS, just that we have one.

Thus, for competition purposes, stouts have roasted barley, porters
don't, but use black malt instead (except maybe "brown" porters).


Oh yeah.  :-)

=Spencer


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:15:20 -0600
From: Kevin TenBrink <tenbrink at jps.net>
Subject: breathalyzers-

On the recent topic of "beating the breathalyzer"-
When I was studying at Michigan State University, I took a respiratory
physiology course.  In this course we learned about how the lungs work
and their role in regulating the acid base balance of the body.  Well to
make a long story short, when humans breath they do not expell all of
the air in their lungs with each exhale.  There is some residual air
that remains in the lungs and the trachea, this is called the tidal
volume if my memory serves me correctly.  This tidal volume is where the
alcohol traces are collected that the breathalyzer is meant to measure.
A sure fire way to remove the traces of alcohol from the sample is to
replace or dilute this tidal volume with fresh air...to do this simply
take several very deep inhales followed by a very forceful exhale,
trying to force every last bit of air from your lungs....doing this in
rapid succession will reduce the measurable amount of alcohol in your
breathalyzer sample.
  I had a recent opportunity to test this technique at a microbrew
festival here in Salt Lake City.  There was a representative from the
police department there educating people on the dangers of drinking and
driving and giving out free breathalyzers to anyone who wanted to take
one.  After 7 3-4 oz samples in about 1.25 hours, I waited the requisite
10 minutes and took the test without doing the above mentioned
technique.  I blew a 0.08, and the occifer, err officer told me that if
I were to drive and get pulled over I would get a ticket for driving
impared, I did not feel impared, but I my sample said otherwise.  I went
on to sample 5 more 3-4 beers and came back about 45 minutes later and
took the test again.  While I was waiting my turn, I was performing the
above mentioned technique.  When the officer saw me approach she grinned
and asked me if I had been trying to "sober up".  I told her on the
contrary that I had resumed sampling the beers and wanted to see what
the effects were on my BAC.  I took the test and blew a 0.02.....the
look on her face was priceless.....at this point I WAS feeling slightly
impared, however, my breathalyzer test said otherwise.  The officer went
on to explain that even with a 0.02 if I were involved in an accident
and the officer administered this test I could still be issued a ticket
etc etc etc....

This post is not meant to encourage irresponsible drinking and driving
and I do not condone such behavior....but the next time you are driving
home from your club meeting and forget to use a turn signal or make an
improper lane change, it may be advisable to keep this in mind to avoid
a potentially expensive and embarrasing DUI ticket.

Kevin
Salt Lake City
Nine Inch Ales Homebrew CLub
http://www.jps.net/tenbrink/nineinchales.htm
Seven Days Without Homebrew Makes One Weak



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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:11:15 GMT
From: marnold at netnet.net (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Care and feeding of a Gott mash/lauter tun

Last Sunday I completed my fourth all-grain batch. I'm hooked. But I do have a
question. What should I be doing to properly clean my mash/lauter tun? I've got
a seven-gallon Gott cooler with Phil's phalse bottom, using a little piece of
copper tubing to go from the phalse bottom to the bulkhead. I've been rinsing
it very thoroughly and last time I let the false bottom soak in bleach water
for a little bit and then rinsed completely (didn't want to destroy the copper
tubing). I'd just hate to have to dump a batch of beer because it got infected
in my mash tun.

Or am I just being too paranoid? Will anything that is living in the mash tun
just be killed off in the boil? It would seem to be that during the mash and
sparge any bugs would have plenty of time to produce their nasty byproducts and
foul the wort. Any thoughts? Banter? Hearsay?

Ein Prosit!
  Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:19:38 -0600 (Canada Central Standard Time)
From: Barry Allen <allen at SEDSystems.ca>
Subject: Rice Syrup Info Provided

Thanks all who replied to my request for help on rice syrup.  I had too many 
personal replies to respond to them all.  A local supplier replied to me, so I 
now have my source.  Thanks also for those who sent recipes -- I look forward 
to trying them.  Consensus was to buy rice syrup ( at  about $3.50/lb) and use 1 
to 2 lb in a 5 gallon batch.  Barry



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Date: 30 Apr 1998 12:17:26 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: BT Subscriptions


HBD'rs-
I just talked to the BT subscription hot line (and believe me, they needed
some talking to!) about my urecieved magazine.  They said they just found the
problem Friday (the 24th) and have fixed it.  Magazines are going out to the
affected "problem people" (hey- I've been called worse- by better!) post
haste, and they will be extending our subscriptions by one month.

Fred K.- I hope you don't think this means I'm pissed at YOU!

Eric Fouch                          at     at 
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery               >
Kentwood MI.                      \     /
                                    \ /


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:31:50 -0700
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Hop Trellis (ASCII warning)

I came up with what I think is a neat design for a hop trellis. It's a
permanent solution so it may not be for everyone. It uses threaded
galvanized gas plumbing set in concrete. Total cost for materials is about
$40.

Materials (for 2 trelli):          Qty
===============================    ===
5 ft 3/4" galvanized gas pipe       2 
5 ft 1/2" galvanized gas pipe       3 
10 ft 1/4" galvanized gas pipe      2 
3 inch 3/4" galvanized gas pipe     2 
1/2" x 3/4" tee                     2 
1/2" x 3/4" reducing coupling       2
1/4" x 1/2" reducing coupling       2
60 lb bag aggregated concrete       1

Dig two post holes down 2.5' ft on 5' centers. Screw a 1/2" x 3/4" tee to
the end of each 5' section of 3/4" pipe. Screw a 5' section of 1/2" pipe
between the 1/2" tees on each section of 3/4" pipe (to form an old-style
goal post). Screw the 3 inch pieces of 3/4" pipe into the tees and then
screw the 1/2" x 3/4" coupling onto these short pieces. Set the assembled
unit into the holes in the ground and pour 1/2 of the bag of concrete into
each hole. Level the assembly and let the concrete set.

Or in ASCII:

T
Ttt = 1/2" x 3/4" tee, where T is 3/4" and t is 1/2"
T

x = 1/2" pipe
X = 3/4" pipe
C = 1/2" x 3/4" reducing coupling
g = the ground
* = concrete

  C                      C
  X                      X
  T                      T
  TttxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxttT
  T                      T
  X                      X
  X                      X
  X                      X
  X                      X
  X                      X
ggXggggggggggggggggggggggXgg
ggXggggggggggggggggggggggXgg
ggXggggggggggggggggggggggXgg
g*X*gggggggggggggggggggg*X*g
g*X*gggggggggggggggggggg*X*g
g*X*gggggggggggggggggggg*X*g
gggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

Once the concrete has set up good, you can screw the 5' sections of 1/2"
pipe to the 1/2" couplings on the assembled unit, extending the height to
about 7'. Now you can screw the 1/4" x 1/2" couplings onto the 5' section
of 1/2" pipe and then screw the 10' sections of 1/4" pipe into the
couplings to extend the overall height to about 17". (I haven't bought the
1/4" pipe yet and may actually use 1/8" pipe instead to lessen the load but
I probably won't need to extend past 7" in the first year).

Now you have a nice high pole to string up your hop vines. My idea is to be
able to disassemble the top portion of the trellis at the end of the season
to harvest the cones, and then reassemble it in the spring when needed. By
using threaded pipe, this can be done quickly and sections can be added to
extend the poles even further. The 1/2" pipe between the two poles is there
to give the two poles more support.

I put 3 of these in my yard this year, so I have 6 poles for hops to climb.
I only planted 5 varieties this year, Goldings, Liberty, Saaz, Tettnang,
and Cascade. I have one slot open for expansion, but I don't know what
variety I will plant there.

Thanks for the bandwidth.

John

PS> Boy, was the Pyrex carboy w/oxygen condom idea a stinker, or what?

John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net
   



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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:14:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: bud/orange/Munich/Barleywine/magnetic/pH/invert/decoct

Barry writes:
>I want to do a "Budweiser Lite" brew (hey, relax, it is for my wife.  Have to
>keep her happy with my hobby.).  I have my 1/2 hop ready to go, but how do I
>deal with the rice issue?  My home brew supplier says he cannot find a source
>for rice extract.  Can I make it myself?  Can I add rice to pot during the
>1/2-hop boil?  When?  How much?  Is there any suitable substitute, such as corn
>sugar?

You can use corn sugar, but ask your supplier to look in his/her wholesale
catalogs for "rice syrup" or "rice syrup solids."  These are the rice
equivalents of malt extract syrup and DME.  I know that L.D.Carlson carries
them.

***
Brandon writes:
>I have a question regarding the addition of orange to a belgian ale.  My
>most recent brew was a belgian ale which has now been in the secondary
>fermenter for quite some time since I haven't had the time to bottle.  I
>have heard of people adding coriander and bitter orange peel to belgians and
>was thinking of bottling half of the batch and spicing the other with these,
>just to see how it turns out.  I haven't found bitter orange peel locally
>here, but did find dried mandarin peel in an oriental food market and was
>wondering whether it would serve as a substiture.  The descriptions of
>bitter orange peel I have seen generally indicate that it is brown/green and
>nasty looking.  The mandarin peel is brown and nasty too, but that may be as
>far as the similarities go - I don't know.  Any thoughts?  Also, would there
>be anything wrong with bottling half the batch and spicing the other?

Curacao orange peel doesn't lend an "orange" flavour as we usually think
of it.  Phil Seitz, in his Zymurgy article, says it smells to him like
chamomille (sp?).  Freshly ground, aged whole coriander smells very citrusy
and you can get some citrusy aromatics from some Belgian Ale yeasts.  If
you really want an orange flavour, consider orange extract or orange
liquor.  If you want to add the traditional Curacao orange to your Belgian-
style Ale, then there are a number of HB shops that now carry the real
thing.

***
>In HBD #2696 George De Piro asks, regarding Munich Malt base grain,
>"..how much of a difference to the Maillard reactions will 1-2% total
>nitrogen be?"

Actually, 1-2% sounds like very little, but consider the fact that a
good low-protein malt will contain only 8 to 10% protein, 1 to 2% more
would be a 10 to 25% increase!

***
Dave writes (regarding a Barleywine that started fermenting after racking):
>I suggest you try a Clinitest to see if you have any residual
>fermentable sugar. If it is less than 1/4% glucose ( maybe
>1/2% in the  case of a barleywine - I don't know) you do
>not have a yeast fermentation, if you do, I'd let it continue.
>If there is still fermentable sugar available, you might
>consider adding a small amount of yeast nutrient and
>some b vitamins. I would try it on a small sample first.
>OTOH, this may simply be the result of this warming up
>and the CO2 bubbling off and stirring up some yeast from
>the bottom. If this is the case, you can bottle it.

Well, you blame me for criticising something I haven't tried
(I haven't tasted lye, but I know to avoid it) and then you
recommend using Clinitest on a Barleywine, waving your arms
when it comes to the numbers for which they should look...

I recommend a more tried-and-true method: calculate your apparent
attenuation (that's the attenuation that factors in the fact that
alcohol is actually present and lower in gravity than water) and
see if it's reasonable.

Here's the formula:

 (1 - (FG -1)/(OG -1)) x 100  =  Apparent attenuation in percent

For example:  if your OG was 1.072 and the FG was 1.018:

 (1 - (1.018 - 1)/(1.072 - 1)) x 100
 (1 - 0.018/0.072) x 100
 (1 - 0.25) x 100
  0.75 x 100
  75% apparent attenuation

Look at the range of apparent attenuations for the yeast you
used and see if the number you get falls in the range.  You
should expect slightly lower AA if you added a lot of crystal
malt and a MUCH lower AA if you used a low-fermentability extract
such as Laaglander DME, "Dutch" DME, "European" DME or "Hollander" DME.

I would not bottle until you get no more than one bubble every four
or five minutes.  I have to disagree most strongly that nutrients or
B vitamins would help... there are *more* than enough of these in
an all-malt Barleywine.  Rousing the yeast (without introducing
air) or adding more actively fermenting yeast will help speed up the
completion of the ferment.
 
***
HH writes about his magnetic beer:
>Maybe the list can help me with some technical problems. I need aluminum
>bottle caps. The beer sticks to the steel caps and pulls out of the
>bottle at one shot.

How about brass caps?  I think aluminium would be too soft for the caps.
Barring that, you could cork and then use brass wire for the baskets ;^).

***
John writes:
>I understand pH increases with higher temp and the probe life expectancy
>decreases with higher temperature.  Hanna Instruments probe life, I sell
>their products, is about standard for the industry.   They have taken into
<snip>

I hope you just accidentally typed that first statement backwards.  As
it is, pH *decreses* with higher temp.  Also, your post was very close to
an advertisement.  Many of us have things to advertise but restrain
ourselves.  HBD is not the place for this.  If your products are good
enough, a satisfied customer will post something on your behalf.

***
>Dave writes:
>Mike Megown wants to know what Invert Cane sugar is and
>how he can get it. Don't bother trying it. Just use Cane sugar
>and the yeast will invert it for you with invertase.  Recipes
>which use citric or some other acid and a long boil to invert it
>just put acid in your beer for no good reason.

Just to show that I don't immediately disagree with Dave on
everything... I agree 100%.  I think it's also interesting to
note that boiling sucrose in a mildly acid solution for a few
minutes only inverts a very small portion of the sucrose.  It
would take a much lower pH and longer boil to invert even half
of the sucrose.  Why make invert sugar syrup then?  Because
by splitting a few percent of the sucrose into its component
glucose and fructose, the syrup doesn't crystalise as quickly as
an all sucrose sryup.  For our purposes, just as Dave says, I
would suggest using about 80% granular sucrose (because the syrup
is about 20% water).

***
Tim writes:
>I want to try a decoction mash sometime in the near future (read:  next
>time I brew).  I'm curious as to what schedule to use for a simple (as can
>be) single decoction.  Everything I've seen so far has you strike in the
>protein rest range, and then single decoct up to sacc. rest.  Is there
>another way of doing it?  Perhaps in the acid rest range?  But wouldn't
>that require the decoction to be huge (>50%) in order to hit the sacc.
>rest?

You can mash in at 40C (104F) and then use the decoction to raise the
temperature up to the saccharification range, 65 to 70C (149 to 158F)
or you can mash in into the high end of the protein rest range, 55 to 60C
(131 to 140F) and then use a decotion to raise up into the 65 to 70C
range.  Note that for the first way, you would need to probably decoct
60% of the mash or more and for the second, only about 30 to 40%.



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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:34:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: woops/burners

Forgot to .sig that last one... sorry.

Also:
Mike writes:
>I'm wondering if I could just buy a industrial-quality rectangular single
>burner that I could adapt to fit my 12 X 18 frame.  More importantly,
>I would need a beefier manifold and adjustment knob.

I don't know about adjustments, but fellow Chicago Beer Society member
Tim Norris and professional brewer Ted Furman (Golden Prairie) have
wok burners they got from Chicago's Chinatown.  These multijet beauties
probably spew over 100,000 BTUs of very clean blue flame.  You may
have to rig your own adjustment to the air intake and I believe by
default they come jetted for natural gas.  They are cast iron with
about a dozen brass, screw-in nozzles.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:25:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Stephen Cavan <cavanst at duke.usask.ca>
Subject: mash hops

A few weeks ago I mentioned that I was moved by Fix and De Clerck's
discussion FWH to take things one step further. I wanted to avoid pellets
in my brew kettle, and I wanted to increase hop flavours. I added target
and Challenger hops to the mash where a higher pH would help flavour
formation. The result was sampled at the local club meeting last night and
was well received. The flavour is subtle and unlike any I have coaxed out
of hops before. I would suggest giving it a try.  The bitterness extracted
was moderate, but given that the hops did not boil this is not surprising.

I used 22. Target (8.3%) and 15g Challenger (8.2%) for the 90 minute mash.
I had about 4kg of grain for a gravity of 1.053 in 20 liters. 
I also added 1 plug of Goldings (5%) for 60 minute boil

At a guess I would say the final IBU level is between 35 and 40.

I'll try this in a Pils next week with Saaz in the mash.

Cheers, Steve



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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:01:12 -0700
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: What is a stout, was Re: How Stout is Lewis?

Spencer W. Thomas says: (and with much more authority, I might add)

> As a BJCP judge, I need to speak up here.  We *MUST* continue to
> distinguish between Porter and Stout.  These are often the two largest
> categories in a homebrew competition.  If we didn't distinguish them,
> the poor judges would be totally overwhelmed.  It really doesn't
> matter much what the distinction IS, just that we have one.
> 
> Thus, for competition purposes, stouts have roasted barley, porters
> don't, but use black malt instead (except maybe "brown" porters).
> 
> Oh yeah.  :-)
> 
> =Spencer

While I can appreciate a hard and fast rule for AHA judging, many of
us feel more than a little frustrated when we go into a pub and order
a Stout or Porter and really do not know what to expect.  When I ask
for an IPA, I can be reasonable assured that I will get a strongish
brew with hops that will knock your socks off.  When I ask for a Stout,
I might get a very guzzle-able beer such as Guinness or a thick, heavy,
filling brew (such as our local pubs 'No Doubt Stout').  The same goes
for a Porter.  Pub A's Porter can taste much like Pub B's Stout.  Again,
I think Lewis saw the same problem when writing his book.

My personal preference (which carries no weight in the matter) would
be for Porter to be black guzzling beer and Stout to be black sipping
beer.  This would harken back to the 'Stout Porter' terminology
that some writers (but not all, no flames here please) suggest is the
origin for Stout.

My 2 cents.

Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com


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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:37:32 -0400
From: "Frederick J. Wills" <Frederick_Wills at compuserve.com>
Subject: NRM / MRI

From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>

<<Actually I probably know more about this than you, as it
sounds from your comment.  >>

Ouch Dave.  A bit pretentious considering you didn't get it right either.



<<The nuclei do not produce radio frequency energy. >>

Actually, yes the nuclei *do* give off RF energy after having been 
excited,
and as a product of their relaxation.  It is actually this signal that is

picked up by a sensitive antenna that is the NMR signal and is the source

for spectra in NMR spectroscopy and image information in MRI.

<<...a bunch more of my lengthy explainations in private mail cut in
keeping with bandwidth preservation and HBD decorum...>>

Fred Wills
MR Technical Support Engineer
Londonderry, NH

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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:19:42 -0600 (MDT)
From: Adam Holmes <adamholm at holly.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: reusing primary fermenter yeast cake

I wanted to know how other homebrewer's were reusing their yeast from
batch to batch.  I did this once.  Just siphoned off beer from primary to
secondary, then dumped my new wort into the primary right on top of the
yeast cake.  Everything worked out fine but this method did not allow me
to clean and sanitize my primary fermenter.  I know some people "wash"
their yeast.  How do you do it and what is the purpose of doing it?
Thanks in advance.

Adam Holmes
Fort Collins, CO
private email OK



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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:44:44 +1000
From: "David Hill" <davidh at melbpc.org.au>
Subject: magnet whoops

re my recent post (HBD 2701) and the word "clarino" I have no idea where or
how I
managed to exchange "chlorine" for "clarino"

The post should have pointed to a NEW SCIENTIST article where it was
reported that chlorine sanitation of swimming pools was more effective, and
effective for longer when combined with a magnetic field than chlorine alone
without the magnets.
Magnets on their own had no effect. but they did potentiate the effects of
chlorine. The researchers had no adequate explanation for their
observations.

sorry to waste the bandwidth with my stupidity.
David Hill.   davidh at melbpc.org.au      :-)>




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---