---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Disagree ("John Watts")
  Bru-Head heading compound (Mark Hillman)
  Eurosealer/ Latest BT? ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Hoppy Deer, Outatown ("David R. Burley")
  Alternative RIMS heating? Was: RE: Confusion over delta T (Wim Hielkema)
  Copper and oxygen (Al Korzonas)
  Adding yeast to Barleywines (Al Korzonas)
  channeling (Al Korzonas)
  Pasteurization Question and Wit beer (Golgothus)
  Freezer Conversion (Chuck Cubbler)
  re: All Grain Blues ("Michel J. Brown")
  Oops - oatmeal stout update (Spencer W Thomas)
  Head Retention Problem (Robert Arguello)
  AHA Questions (by way of David Houseman <dhousema at cccbi.chester.pa.us>)
  Beer flavor kits (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Quayle (Fred Kingston)
  DMS a brewing fault? (Bill Giffin)
  Red Barrel (oberlbk)
  Question ("David Johnson")
  Where to find a good wort pump .. .. .. (Bradd Wheeler)
  Hops and Deer (Chas Peterson)
  Re:  AHA ANNOUNCES "HOLIDAY CHEER" BEER COMPETITION ("George, Marshall E.")
  This and that... ("Schultz, Steven W.")
  Dr Pivo, Oxidation, Dan the Q, Of Ales and Esters and U hop it. (James Tomlinson)
  Strawberry Haze (Charley Burns)
  Mark Your Calenders! (John Adams)
  Re: Flavor-Spiking Kits ("Mark Nelson")
  New AHA event... (Some Guy)


BURP's Spirit of Free Beer competition is June 6-7 and entry information
is available by contacting Jay Adams (adams at burp.org).


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 05:59:00 -0500
From: "John Watts" <watts at top.net>
Subject: Disagree

EFOUCH wrote
"The HBD has a few rotating threads that get beaten to death periodically:
Boiling ferocity, propane vs natural gas, hops toxicity, etc.- which reminds
me- the botulism thread is about due."

Sorry Eric, the evils/benefits of canning wort thread is first, then the 
botulism.  Freezing to increase/decrease alcohol gets worked in as well. ;)

Tim,

Speaking from the vast experience of 1 all grain batch (the Palexperiment), go 
for it!  Try a simple infusion and you'll be amazed how easy it is.  My only 
suggestion would be to spend the bucks for a 10 gallon mash tun.  I converted 
my old 5 gallon kettle to a tun, and am already looking for something larger!

Hoppy Brewing!

John Watts
watts at top.net


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:05:54 -0400
From: Mark Hillman <mhillman at ebtech.net>
Subject: Bru-Head heading compound

	
Hi,

We tried using a little heading compound on last nights batch.  The
directions said to mix in hot water then add to bottling bucket.  When we
mixed it up it went all lumpy with little jelly floaties in it.  This being
the first time using this stuff we're wondering if this is normal or if
we're missing something.  Any tips?


Mark 


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:28:50 -0700
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Eurosealer/ Latest BT?

From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: hop suppliers
>>>
 Note that if you buy more than a pound it will come
in a non-oxygen-barrier bag, so you better buy some O2-barrier
bags (and one of those Eurosealers at Walgreens!).
<<<
I wondered about this when I saw it on TV.  Is the Eurosealer
adequate for sealing barrier bags?  They're pretty cheap, they're
portable, and sound like just what we need!

*******************************************
I'm still waiting for the March/April issue of Brewing
Techniques that got delayed by problems in the computer
system.  Is anyone else still waiting, or have you all received yours?

Randy in Modesto


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:38:40 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hoppy Deer, Outatown

Brewsters:

Like Doug Moyer I live in the midst of out-of-control deer
who decimate all plants, shrubs and trees less than
6 feet high.  These deer have virtually destroyed the
woodlands of Northern New Jersey for future generations
by eating all of the young trees.  I have seen it happen
over the last decade and a half, living as I do in the woods
and mountains of New Jersey.  We have many tales like
his of deer ignoring the presence of humans while
happily munching thousands of dollars worth of
ornamentals.  Sadly this is just as painful for the deer
who are now starving and forced to eat shrubs which
they would not touch ten or even two or three years ago.

Anyway, after trying all the useless suggestions like
hanging human hair, soap and sprays of bone meal, etc.I
have found that the only way to permanently prevent
deer attacks ( and they will ) on shrubs and hop vines is
with bird netting.  I built a fence from bird netting to
surround the hops growing area and it has worked great.
This netting is available at your garden store, is black
and fine enough that it is not easy to see from a distance
and it does the job winter and summer, rain or shine. 

- -----------------------------------
I'll be outatown for most of the next three weeks. So
I am not ignoring any e-mail, and will respond when I can


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:50:57 +0200
From: Wim Hielkema <betonh at xs4all.nl>
Subject: Alternative RIMS heating? Was: RE: Confusion over delta T

rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) wrote:

>If you want something really different, try this:
>
>Use a stainless steel coil as the heating chamber, with the mash liquid
>and pump connection by non conducting plastic tubing, then power the
>coil with high amperage low voltage AC current.

Hey, now that's a great idea. I'm currently in the process of constructing
a RIMS (well, actually it's still on the drawing board) and was wondering
about what would be a good heater construction. Your idea obviously has
great advantages with respect to constructing a heater chamber with a
'standard' heating element, i.e. a simple length of tubing is all you need
instead of a chamber with appropriate fittings welded to it for
inlet/outlet tubing and the end caps for the heater element.

>You will probably need to rewind a transformer by changing the secondary
>winding to a very large single or several turn conductor, then this will
>connect to your stainless heating coil.  I once played around with a
>transformer like this, with a few turns on the secondary, could make a
>coat hanger glow bright red!  You will need to experiment, with a lot of
>cut and try, and maybe get an electrician to assist in the design.  You
>can start by finding some high power battery charger, or an old welding
>transformer as the source for a transformer to rewind.

Why not wind the heating coil directly round the transformer and let it act
as secondary winding itself? You can use a large piece of copper, either
clamped or welded to minimize resistance, to short circuit beginning and
end of the coil. Expect currents ranging from 100 up to 1000 Ampere or more
to flow through the secondary, depending on the material used (stainless
steel or copper), tube diameter, length and wall thickness. Electrical
losses in the secondary windings will be minimized this way.

The only problem I see with this construction is regulating the power of
this system. The only way to electronically control such a system is by
regulating the primary voltage. Transformers have nasty habit of drawing
high transient currents upon switching on so PID controllers, which control
power by switching on and off at regular intervals, are no option. The
electronics will probably be fried the first time power is switched on.
You'll need some sort of continuous voltage regulation at the primary side
with current limiting on startup (softstart). A large triac dimmer will
probably suffice (think 1 - 2.5 KW) although I'm not sure how the
transformer will handle the chopped sinusoid at low input voltages (loss of
efficiency, high transient voltages generated in the primary).


Bye, Wim.




- --
Wim Hielkema, Homebrewer & WebWizard, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
betonh at xs4all.nl, http://www.xs4all.nl/~betonh/beer/beer.html

"Give me beer OR give me death" - Al Bundy




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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:51:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Copper and oxygen

Scott Perfect and I had been discussing a number of issues offline and
he send me a copy of a post John Palmer submitted a few years ago regarding
the removal of surface lead from brass fittings.  I'll repost it here
because it's pretty small and maybe a good thing to keep in mind when
assembling a system.  I would edit it down to just the important bits,
but when talking about lead, often people get a little paranoid and I
think the levelheaded tone of the post may be lost if I edit it too much.
Here's the post:

 Posting 3: Extracted from file:  1791
 Date: 24 Jul 1995 14:16:36 U
 From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
 Subject: RE: Brass, FDA vs. AOB

 Dion Wrote:
 >OK, John, so how do you react to the blurb in BT about the FDA
 >"outlawing" brass in contact with food pH < 7 ?  (page 12, v3n4).   Is
 >this just another one of the FDAs, "Well, we're not sure so we'll just
 >disallow it" cover their ass schemes??

 >I use a small number of brass fittings and have always basically
 >agreed with you in regard to this issue.  I still am not going to
 >worry, but maybe the FDA has some "proof" behind their "guidelines".
 >What is really crazy is that this applies to "copper and copper
 >alloys".  I can maybe understand a cause for concern of lead in brass,
 >but pure copper???

 As a matter of fact: I had been contacted by Jim Neighbors of AOB (not Gomer)
 to help prepare an Alert and information sheet that was sent out to many
 concerned parties. I provided references from the ASM Metals Handbook
 explaining under what conditions Copper and Copper alloys would be dissolved
 by acidic solutions.
 The upshot is that beer does not corrode copper or copper alloys by itself. It
 can act as a electrolyte for galvanic corrosion, but so can tap water.

 The reason for the FDA Alert is that copper can cause heavy metal poisoning
 when dissolved into food or water and ingested in mass quantities. So will
 lead, cadmium, and lots of other metals.  This IS a case where the FDA has
 taken a legitimate concern and expanded it to an illegitimate solution. They
 would better serve the public by explaining that low pH foods and liquid will
 dissolve copper under oxidizing conditions. If you were to whip beer full of
 air, then it would dissolve copper. (Matter of fact, if you were to oxygenate
 your wort in a copper vessel, you would dissolve a lot more than normal beer
 would.) The same holds true for other acidic foods. Beer that has not been
 aerated or beer that is post fermentation carbonated will not significantly
 corrode copper (no oxygen).

 By the way, for those of you who are relatively new to the HBD, brass does
 contain lead as an aid to machining properties. During the machining of brass,
 the lead becomes smeared over the machined surface, where it can be gradually
 dissolved by acidic solutions. We are talking about minute amounts (micrograms)
 smeared over small surface areas. I do not consider it a threat.
 Nevertheless, it can be removed by a soak for 10-15 minutes in grocery store
 white distilled vinegar and common hydrogen peroxide, mixed in a 2:1 volume
 ratio of vinegar to peroxide. The brass will turn a buttery gold color as it
 cleans. If the solution turns green, then you have gone a bit too long and the
 copper is starting to dissolve.

 John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P


Okay, so I read this and something popped into my head that I hadn't though
of the first time I read it.  Currently, my standard kettle procedure is:

1. boil the wort
2. near the end of the boil, dunk airstone and its silcone hose into kettle,
3. insert copper immersion chiller into kettle
4. turn off heat
5. chill to pitching temperature
6. turn off the chiller water and turn on the oxygen
7. open the valve and run the wort into carboys

Now, in the light of that earlier post, what's wrong with this picture?
Yes... I'm oxidising my copper wort chiller!  While it's unlikely that 
this is problem (the yeast will probably eat all the copper that gets
dissolved into the wort), it would be easy for me to reduce the dissolution
of copper into the wort simply by removing the immersion chiller before
turning on the oxygen...

It's probably absolutely safe both ways, but you may want to consider
changing your procedures in this way also.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:29:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Adding yeast to Barleywines

I wrote:
>I would just keep adding
>more of the original pitching yeast every time the fermenter starts
>to slow down (within reason).

This read a lot worse in HBD than it did when I wrote it.  I don't
recommend adding yeast over and over... what I mean is, once the
fermentation of your Barleywine has slowed to, say, 1 bubble per
three minutes, rack it into a secondary and try adding a *little*
more of the same yeast you pitched initially.  See if the fermentation
restarts (more than just the increased airlock activity from the
racking itself which could last 12 hours).  If you don't get any
more fermentation, consider if your attenuation is reasonable
(you did take a hydrometer reading when you racked to the secondary,
right?) for the yeast you used.

If there is no activity, then don't worry...  let it sit in the secondary
for 6 months and then force-carbonate or bottle.  It's a good idea to
add a little more yeast at bottling time along with the primings.
A common thing to do is to underprime Barleywines a little because
they often have a little more fermentable sugar remaining after
a few months in the fermenter and this remaining sugar will boost
your carbonation level.  I've even heard from some brewers who
don't prime their Barleywines at all, relying on that residual
fermentable sugar for the carbonation (it takes the better part of
a year to get fermentation like this and you have to bottle a
little earlier than six months... personally, I think it's a
tad risky and prefer to really let it ferment out in the fermenters).

If there is some activity, then let that go to completion and *think*
about doing it again when it slows down, *BUT* I don't recommend
racking to a tertiary... I think a secondary should be plenty and
the added risk of oxidation is not worth the benefit.  My last
two Barleywines spent 9 months in the *primary* with no ill effects.

I don't think a fourth addition of yeast would be any benfit and I
would only consider a third addition if the second addition really
showed a lot of activity (it probably won't).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:39:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: channeling

Markus writes:
>cut the grain
>with a long bread knife in a criss-cross pattern about 4 inches deep every
>5 minutes or so, it avoids channeling, helps to avoid stuck mashes and
>improves extraction a bit.

I personally feel that this is debatable... depending on your system,
crush, malt, runoff rate, etc., it may *decrease* channeling or it may
*increase* channeling.  I've never cut my grain bed and have never (in
150+ allgrain batches) had a set (stuck) mash, so it certainly isn't
a required procedure.  Experimenting with cutting the grain bed on
*YOUR* system is the only way to tell if it will be an improvement or
not and, incidentally, it may help on your decoction mashed brews nad
hinder on your infusion mashed ones, or it may help only on brews with
a lot of wheat or rye in them...

Lots of experimentation and specifics are needed before we can make
some generalised statements about the benefits of cutting the grain bed.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:17:45 EDT
From: Golgothus <Golgothus at aol.com>
Subject: Pasteurization Question and Wit beer

Hello all:
		Recently I brewed a Belgian Wit from extract (don't try this at home kids
 ... way too dark for the style) and as I ended up with more wort than planned,
I decided to experiment.  (I went crazy with the fermentables and had to add
over a gallon of water to achieve an OG of 1.050) I reserved one gallon of
wort at cooling time and allowed it to cool slowly in an open vessel, in an
attempt to achieve spontaneous fermentation...  A roaring success ... by
morning it was bubbling merrily along and produced mounds of blow-off.  After
three days, I added a cup of kraeusen from the mother batch, to help slow the
acidifiers.  The resulting wort (at 20 days) is VERY acidic and tart...  I was
wondering if it might be possible to pasteurize the resulting brew and add it
back to the original batch to increase the acidity of the beer.  I like the
tang associated with weiss and would like to see it in this p-Wit (so to
speak, as it's way too dark and way too spiced ... live and learn) without
infecting the whole batch with the acidic beasties.  The single gallon is too
acidic on it's own, but if I could stop the growth while adding it to the five
gallons of non-acidified brew, then I think the flavor of the batch would be
much improved. 
		The single gallon in question is in a one gallon apple juice jug.  If I
suspended it in a pot with water at boiling temp removed from heat ... what
temp would I need to achieve and for how long would it need to be applied to
pasteurize the brew in question?  I would be greatly disappointed if the
acidifiers survived to ruin the whole batch.  I am new to the concept of home
pasteurization (except for a little work with canning jellies) and would
appreciate any and all comments on this idea ... as I plan to bottle on my off
day next week. 

TIA,

Michael Whitt
Brewster and Wandering Philosopher
(Currently) Bragi's Brewery
		    Mobile Alabama

"He who lives by the skull, will die by the skull."
Golgothus at aol.com 


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:17:11 -0400
From: Chuck Cubbler <chuck at maguire.com>
Subject: Freezer Conversion

A guy wants to sell me a small chest freezer.  Price is pretty good.  Is it 
possible to convert for use as a refridge, for lagering or maybe just to 
give my wife room for food in the kitchen fridge???  It seems to me that I 
ould just set the thermo to the warmest (or least cold) setting.  If this 
is too cold, I guess I could use the thermo from a fridge or other temp 
control.  Anyone done this before??  I'm pretty handy with this kind of 
stuff but I fear I may be opening a can of worms and should just forget it. 
 Thanks for any advice.....


Chuck



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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:23:29 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: All Grain Blues

Eric Fouch said in HBD#2713:

"Make an Oktoberfest with ale yeast."

In fact, there's a splendid online description of doing this very self same
thing at the Real Beer Page (BT article). Try pointing your browser to the
web page below:

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/styles/1_2style.html

Sounds like heresy, but that didn't stop Kurt and Rob Widmer from doing
just that!

"Brew by the seat of your pants."

Brewing Butt beer Eric? TTYAL, God Bless, and ILBCNU!

                       Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.   
                        homemade at spiritone.com
             http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.shtml           
   "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
                             L. Pasteur

   

                                



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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:43:07 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Oops - oatmeal stout update

I really remembered my oatmeal stout recipe wrong.  Here's the real
thing:

5.5# DWC Pale malt
0.5# M&F Roast Barley
0.25# "Black" malt (it was unlabeled, so it might have been very dark
	chocolate, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't roast barley.)
0.5# DWC CaraMunich malt
0.5# DWC CaraPilsner malt
18oz Quaker "quick" oats

Single infusion mash  at  ~152F

1oz E Kent Goldings  at  6.5% 60min
 .5oz " :15
 .5oz " :0

about 5 gallons (probably a bit less)  at  1.050

Pitch YCKC "Strathcona" yeast from 900ml starter  at  68F,
Ferment 7 days  at  60F, transfer to carboy (1.030)
6 days in carboy, transfer to keg (1.018)

I think it's really yummy, easily the best stout I've made.  It's got
a luscious roasty aroma, with a bit of fruit, and is dry and fruity in
the mouth with a nicely balanced bitterness.  It could be a touch
sweeter, perhaps, but I'm picking nits.

=Spencer


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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:55:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: Head Retention Problem

Hi all,

I am hopeful that some of you may have suggestions for improving a situation
that I am having trouble with.

I brew a Chimay clone that I call "Chimay-be-Not". The beer makes me happy
in every way except head RETENTION. While the beer has proper carbonation
level, and the initial head is nice and moussey/creamy, it dissapates
quickly, nor does it leave "lace" on the glass. My glassware is always
scrupulously clean, and I have tried a number of fixes but have had no luck.
This beer usually earns 34 to 37 points in competitions, but I generally
lose 2 or more points due to poor head retention.

Please take a look at the recipe and procedures below and see if you have
any suggestions. I would rather not add any wheat to the grain bill, and I
certainly don't want to use any "heading compounds". All of my other beers
are carbonated in the same way and have generally similar mashing
procedures...they all exhibit excellent head formation and retention. 

Here is the recipe...

GRAIN BILL/Fermentables:

British Pills Malt      9   lbs
American Crystal 120L    .5 lbs
Belgium Munich          4   lbs
Flaked Barley            .5 lbs
Belgium Candy sugar     1   lbs

HOP BILL:

Styrian Goldings        1.3 oz (60 min)
Styrian Goldings         .7 oz (30 min)
Saaz                    1.0 oz (10 min)

YEAST:
I normally use cultured Chimay yeast, but have also used Wyeast 1214 and
WhiteLabs Belgium.

The mash includes:
protein rest  at  133 F for 20 min. (NOTE: I have tried omitting the protein
rest and I                                   have tried longer protein rests)
Sugar rest  at  153 F for 90 min.
Mash Out  at  167 F for 15 min.
Sparge: 165 deg F for 60 to 80 minutes.

This beer, as are all my others, is brewed in my RIMS system.
I treat my water for proper pH and mineral content, don't oversparge, (I
stop collecting when the runnings fall below 1.015), I use Irish Moss just
as I do in every other beer that I brew. I don't fine this beer at all
except the kettle finings.

OG 1.080
FG 1.012

1 week in primary
5 weeks in secondary 
Ferment at 64 deg F (NOTE: I have tried higher temps..too many banana esters)

I normally keg the beer, force carbonate and then a week later bottle using
a CP filler.
All of my beers are likewise carbonated and often CP bottled with no head
retention problems. I have also tried priming the brew, that resulted in
only fair carbonation and poor head retention.

Any ideas or suggestions?


		         	"All In A Day's Wort"
Robert Arguello 
robertac at calweb.com
CORNY KEGS FOR SALE!  $12.00 each
See them at http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/keg.htm



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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 00:27:02 -0400
From: David Houseman <dhousema at cccbi.chester.pa.us> (by way of David Houseman <dhousema at cccbi.chester.pa.us>)
Subject: AHA Questions

I'd like to ask some questions of the HBD "membership" and get private
replies rather than start a thread on this brewing forum.  I am a member
of the AHA Board of Advisors.   The AHA does in fact ask its BoA
members for their input and advice and they do listen.  We will be
meeting at the National Homebrew Conference in July in Portland.  As a
way of "representing" the homebrewing community, albeit informally, I'd
like to understand in more depth the issues some of you have with the AHA as
well as the positive feelings that many have towards the AHA.  To do that
I'd like to ask some questions and get responses from those that subscribe
to HBD.  In fact I'd like to get these to a broader audience of brewers
but that's not practical for me.  As I said, private replies, please.

1) Are you a member of the AHA?  How long have you been brewing?  What
level of brewer (kit, extract/specialty grain, all grain) are you?

2) If you are a member,  what value do you perceive from the AHA?

3)  If you are not a member, why not?  

4) If membership in the AHA were available separate from a subscription
to Zymurgy, would that encourage you join the AHA?
    
5) What additional benefits from the AHA would you like to receive?
Remember that there will be costs associated with most activities.

6) What could the AHA do for your club?  New brewers?  Experienced
brewers?

7) What do you perceive as problems with the AHA as it you know it?

8) What changes in the AHA would encourage you to join if you are not
already a member of the AHA?

Thank you for the bandwidth.

David Houseman



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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:16:10 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Beer flavor kits

ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> writes:

> Jeremy Bergsman mentions an "Off flavors spiking kit" from Seibel that
> he'd used to spike into Budweiser for the purpose of practicing the
> identification of such compounds as DMS and acetaldehyde in beer. This
> sounds like a great idea! Does anyone out there have any info about such
> kits? Are they commercially available?

I did not write that.  I have built such a kit myself from standard
chemical supply houses.  If you don't care about doing esters, you can
get most of what you'd want for around $150.  Esters and a few other 
goodies can boost you up to $400+.  Note that due to the incredibly small
amount that you use to doctor a beer, this much money buys you enough
to doctor hundreds or thousands of bottles of beer with each flavor.
I thought about offering samples for a nominal fee to cover postage,
packaging, and effort.  However, a license to do so where I live is
over $200/year, and given that there is also some legal liability I
suppose, I have decided not to do so.  A few local clubs could get 
together, find someone with a business license, and build their own
kit.

I have done this in my area, and if you live in an area with a good
brewpub, or good skiing, or ... and would like to fly me out ....

Note that some of the good ones you can already do, like skunk and
oxidation, also sweet, salty, astringent, ....  Also some beers come
with built-in doctorings, like Bud's acetaldehyde.  See Jay Hersh's
document in the Judge Digest Archives for ideas.  If anyone is 
interested, I could type up my findings for good doses.

I have seen one such kit advertised.  Actually a local brewshop owner
showed me a solicitation from the manufacturer for him to be a retailer.
It was from the UK and it looked very suspicious to me.  First, all of
the substances were powders, even though the way I see it many of them
cannot exist in that state.  Also there were some strange things,
like I think that there was both "catty" and "skunked" which I thought
mean the same thing.  There was a good number of flavors, but many
were ones like sweet and skunk that you can do yourself.  All they
really offer in those is the correct dose which you can find by asking
me, reading the document I refer to above, or by your own experiment.
I should think an advanced homebrew shop that already has a repacking
license and liability insurance (?) could make a little money here....
(Anyone need a consultant?)

Drunken Bastard Sully writes:
> I realized that what I was perceiving as an
> aromatic "sweet" was in fact what other people were perceiving as
> "cooked corn."  So I recalibrated my descriptors.

I should have mentioned this, thanks.  I actually believe that I can
taste 4VG for example, but I am less sensitive to it than typical and
it tastes nothing like clove.  My hypothesis is that most compounds
are likely to activate more than one receptor, and likely at different
doses.  For example you might have a clove receptor that binds 4-VG
(and eugenol) and a rubbery phenolic receptor that also binds 4-VG,
but not as well.  So most people only get clove since that receptor
is really going by the time the phenolic receptor is binding 4-VG.
I'm -/- for the clove receptor (except I can smell eugenol, so I
guess I'd better change that part) so I only get 4-VG through the
other receptor.  Sully lacks the corn receptor, but has the same
receptor that causes other people to think DMS is sweet.  

Sully, try this: massive amounts of DMS = rotting crabs!  I actually
got this level in a homebrew comp one time.

I have done 2,3 butane dione (diacetyl) and 2,3 pentane dione quite
a bit and the different descriptors people use is really surprising.
Butter, honey, butterscotch, slickness on the tongue, ....  I also
believe this accounts for the different perceptions with different
doses.

I saw an article on this using the VDKs and honeybees, I think in
Neuron (a neuroscience journal), about a year back.

Sorry for the length and all the elipses.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:38:56 -0400
From: Fred Kingston <Fred at KingstonCo.com>
Subject: Quayle

Dr. Pivo writes:

as to John Wilkinson's:

>Now I know who Dr. Pivo is.
>Dan Quayle.

>Now, THAT was funny. (BTW, I'm a bit unsure, but he's a popularly
>elected American official, isn't he?)

Dear Dr,

Dan Quayle might be more appropriately described as " a less popularly
elected American official, that rode the coat tails of another popularly
elected official into office and was subsequently determined to have
been a dullard, an idiot... and a pompous ass..."

I wouldn't consider the comparison in _any_ form, complimentary.








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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:53:37 -0400
From: Bill Giffin <billg at ctel.net>
Subject: DMS a brewing fault?

Top of the morning to yea all,

DMS is listed in many of our brewing books as a flaw and something to
avoid.  Yet if your beer has no DMS it probably is a pretty poor beer.  May
not even be beer.

DMS CONTENT OF BEERS (ppb)

	British Ales		14
	British lagers		16-27
	Continental lagers	44-114
	German lagers		32-205 (av.94)
	Canadian Ale		92
	Canadian lager		114
	United States		59-106

The flavor threshold for DMS is around 30 ppb, some folks can taste DMS at
lower levels and some don't notice the flavor until a much higher level.

Sully said:
"I was embarassed enough to have an American Standard Lager kicked from a
comp in prelims
for "overwhelming" DMS, which I had apparently entirely failed to perceive."

Perhaps it should be the judges who should be embarrassed.  Many judges
feel that DMS is a flaw no matter the style of beer.  Most of the times
they are wrong.  It is quite possible that the Am lager you brewed was just
fine, but the judges were all ale drinkers who had a low tolerance for DMS.

Bill




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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:26:49 -0400
From: oberlbk at NU.COM
Subject: Red Barrel


I am trying to find an extract recipe for Watney's Red Barrel.  If anyone
has anything that is close I would appreciate it.  Private emails are fine.

Somebody had posted something a few weeks ago about their initial attempts
at all grain brewing yielding a very harsh, astringent flavor.  I myself
have had all grain equipment hanging around for 2 years and have had the
very same problem - 5 batches all tasted husky and thrown out.  If you
found what the cause of your problem was, could you please email me and let
me know how you corrected it.  I tried reducing my sparge volume to no
avail.  I would really love to use the equipment.  Until then, I keep
nagging the HBDers for extract versions of their recipes.

Brent Oberlin
East Hampton, CT
oberlbk at nu.com




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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:32:50 -0500
From: "David Johnson" <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Question

I'll keep this short. When you brewers are talking about evaporation rates,
are you allowing for expansion/contraction of the wort with temperature
change? Are some of these changes in volume due to comparing hot to cool
wort?
	Dave


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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bradd Wheeler <braddw at rounder.com>
Subject: Where to find a good wort pump .. .. ..


Attentiona all you RIMS folks out there.  

I'm just starting to put together a home system but I am having trouble
locating an adequate pump.  My intentions are to use this pump for
recirculation, sparge, whirlpool, as well as knockout, the whole deal.

I've been able to find several light duty electric pumps that will handle
most everything except for the temperatures required.  I desire a pump to
handle temps up to boiling, as well as a wide range of PH for cleaning.

The meat of my question?  Where did you get your pumps, and do you use
them as wort pumps as well as hot-liquor\recirc pumps?

Thanks much,

Bradd Wheeler
Head Brewer
Plymouth Bay Brewing Co.
Plymouth Ma.



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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:28:21 -0400
From: Chas Peterson <chasp at digex.net>
Subject: Hops and Deer

HBDers -

Recently someone wrote in concerned that deer will eat their hops.  I have
grown hops in my backyard, which is visited by about a dozen deer 2-3 times
a day, for 4-5 years.  In my experience deer will eat just about anything
- -- they even ate my okra, which is spiney, wicked, itchy stuff -- if they
had difficulty finding food.  But despite this, the deer have never taken
to my hops (or asparagus) even in drought conditions.  My guess is that
you'll have a harder time with beatles than deer.

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md
- ------------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:32:54 -0500
From: "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com>
Subject: Re:  AHA ANNOUNCES "HOLIDAY CHEER" BEER COMPETITION  

Re:  AHA ANNOUNCES "HOLIDAY CHEER" BEER COMPETITION  

Jim, I think that you forgot to mention that all beers must be extract
based with boiled specialty grains and dry RedStar yeast.  Also, all
competitors must sparge hot wort directly into their primaries.

Marshall George
Edwardsville, IL


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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:38:32 -0400
From: "Schultz, Steven W." <swschult at CBDCOM-EMH1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: This and that...

Rob Moline:  "Occasionally, some remarks are undeserved, inappropriate, and
in the case of 'Nokomaree' some years ago, deliberately hostile and
taunting."

Me:  You're so right, Rob, although I think that he actually referred to
himself, shoutingly, as NOKOMAREE.  But in comparison to the
Alzheimer's/Aluminum thread, the "100 Years War" (Dave vs. Al K.), and the
Beer-in-Space and Botulism threads... I kind of miss the guy ;^)

Me, again:  Stuck fermentation and an imbecile's "solution."  Lately I've
been even lazier than usual and made a few extract-only batches with dry
(Munton's Ale) yeast.  Unfortunately, they had FGs in a range of 1.016 to
1.020 (the OG was around 1.050).  For my last batch, I pitched both
Nottingham and Munton's Ale yeast, thinking that the Nottinham's would
attenuate better, but this batch also stopped at 1.020 (guess it's time to
resume making partial-mash brews).  Since my approach to brewing problems
is, like, very low-tech, I hit upon this "solution" which seems to have
worked:  I bottled the 1.020 with dry champagne yeast and NO priming
solution of any kind.    After a few weeks, the beer was carbonated and
tasted okay-- not too sweet, not too dry.  This may not be the ideal
solution, especially if the yeast keeps fermenting to the point I get bottle
grenades, or if the yeast starts to contribute undesirable flavor
characteristics.  But so far it seems to have worked.  Your mileage may
vary, etc.,  

And yet again, me:  As modest as my brewing skills may be, without the HBD
I'd be much worse!  For the cost (zero) and benefits (considerable) this is
a great resource and I can't remember ever asking for help and not getting
it.  The list of people who have helped me is quite long, but must include
Jeff Renner, Al K., Dave Draper, Jim Busch, Ken Schwartz, and several others
not mentioned but nonetheless appreciated.  Special note to George Fix:
many thanks for sticking around, despite a certain unpleasant, recent
event...

Steve 


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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:52:16 -0400
From: James Tomlinson <73321.1130 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Dr Pivo, Oxidation, Dan the Q, Of Ales and Esters and U hop it.

I Just wanted to Thank Dr. Pivo for what _he_ perceived as wasted
bandwidth. I love the posts. They make me think and remember all that
freshman chemistry stuff that is finally becoming useful.

My only addition is that maybe a different term needs to be used to help
the masses (me included) remember that oxidation/reduction reactions do
not have to involve oxygen. But I digress.

In my own brewing, I have had recent problems with the Cardboard flavor.
Originally, I thought it was my bottling technique, but it seemed to
follow my move to kegs. I now believe that I'm just a little too rough
with the beer after fermentation. I'm now purging carboys, etc. And
using Polyclar for the last few beers.

For the Good Doctor, Dan Quayle was the Vice President of the US from
Jan 1989 to Jan 1993. He was tagged by the media as "not too bright".
The "Potato(e)" incident was trumped up as showing his lack of
intelligence. Of course, he was handed the spelling bee word by the
School's teachers....Personally, I liked the picture of him in Time
magazine where he had the business end of a RPG pointed at his shoulder.

***********************************************

A note on Yeast. Being the cheap B at $! at %# I am, this past winter I did
very little heating in the upstairs of my house (2 zone heating). My
wife liked my first all grain brew, brewed on New Years Eve, 1997. But
all of the beers since were "bland" and "flavorless". I was using Wyeast
1056. I had 10 days off during the Christmas-New Years time frame and my
house stayed 68-70 F during that period.

It has been pointed out to me that 1056 will exibit almost lager like
characteritics when fermented below 60F. I have 4 months worth of data
on that. I'm now working on a temperature controlled box (using a
lightbulb and a fan) to prevent the low ester beers. 

Does anyone have any info on other ale yeasts that would work OK and
still produce ale esters down in to 55-60 F region ? I'm trying Wyeast
1098, fermented at 66-68 F and it seems to have a nice fruity nose
coming out of the airlock. I am considering using the Wyeast 1968 and
the Ringwood yeast strain (Don't know the number). I have tried Wyeast
1028, and I don't like that one. Suggestions requested.

***********************************************

I planted Rhizomes this year and they are beginning to come up. Someone
pointed out that they should be 6 feet apart. Mine are presently 24
inches apart, so I guess I'll have to transplant them. Is there a
prefered method for planting the roots ? Should I have tried to root
them in water before planting ? Except for weeds, I have a brown
thumb....

***********************************************
James Tomlinson

Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour.  
But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime!




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Date: Fri, 15 May 98 07:34 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Strawberry Haze

I was ***extremely*** careful. The strawberry blonde (bock) beer was crystal 
clear in the secondary after 10 days at 60-65F in primary (Wyeast 1056). The 
fresh  strawberries were prepared:


1. Frozen
2. Thawed over 24 hours
3. Placed in 6 quart stock pot
4. Covered with water (only 2 cups)
5. VERY slowly brought to 160F - continuous monitoring with my digital 
thermometer
6. Held at 160F for 10 minutes (covered)
7. Cooled
8. Dropped 1 at a time into the secondary on top of the beer.
9. Poured leftover juice from stockpot into the beer.

Over the period of 12 days in the secondary the beer got cloudy. It's now 
kegged and chilled for about 3 days. Its extremely cloudy. Delicious by the 
way. Homebrew club members liked it very much last night at meeting, but man 
is it ugly.

What happened? I thought if I didn't boil the berries they wouldn't cause 
the haze. Assuming this is pectin that has set, can it be filtered out? If 
it can, what size holes in the filter?

Charley (in a strawberry haze daze) in N. Cal.

PS - using half munich malt in the grist made it quite tasty with the 
strawberries.



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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:30:57 -0600
From: John Adams <j_adams at fc.hp.com>
Subject: Mark Your Calenders!

4th Annual KROC World Brewers Forum. 

Sponsered by Colorado's Keg Ran Out Club: Tuesday, September 29th, 7-10
pm. For more information call 303-460-1776 or e-mail: j_adams at fc.hp.com.


- -- 
John "The Brews Traveler" Adams
KROC World Brewers Forum Director


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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:55:05 -0400
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Flavor-Spiking Kits

Alan Keith Meeker asks about flavor spiking kits in HBD 2714.

"Does anyone out there have any info about such
kits? Are they commercially available? Pricing? Sources?"

I can give you one lead.  I took a Beer Evaluation course here in Atlanta
led by Ray Daniels.
He used a kit from a UK company.  I wrote down the company name as
"Flavor-Active", but am not
sure if that's the right spelling.  You might try contacting Ray for more
information, unless
someone else posts better details.  Ray's at the Craft Beer Institute,
773-665-1300, which is a
Chicago-area number.




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Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:56:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: New AHA event...


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager..

George Marshall sprechens:

> Re:  AHA ANNOUNCES "HOLIDAY CHEER" BEER COMPETITION

> Jim, I think that you forgot to mention that all beers must be extract
> based with boiled specialty grains and dry RedStar yeast.  Also, all
> competitors must sparge hot wort directly into their primaries.

Um, did y'all forget to throw a tablespoon of gypsum into that?

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."





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---