---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  weavil (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Wort souring for p-Lambic ("Steven Jones")
  Overnight boiling (D de Villiers)
  re: Hop around the clock (Mark Hillman)
  RIMS Ideas (Louis Bonham)
  Yeast reuse (Mark Hillman)
  butt-jelly re-revisited... ("Brian Wurst")
  Another BigBrew 98 question (long) (Doug Moyer)
  poly clar (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Swedish Stark-Porter ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Spent grain baking, _Handbook of Brewing_ ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Airborne nasties; weevils; hop around the clock; apartment kegging (Samuel Mize)
  Re: Affordable Dental Plans (Jeff Grey)
  Titletown Open IV Winners / Special Thanks (Matthew Arnold)
  Hops read clocks? ("Rosenzweig,Steve")
  yeast aeration, alcohol tolerance, the aha, butt lube (Jim Liddil)
  Copper Tub (John Varady)
  Brewer's Love Song? (Samuel Mize)
  RE: butt-jelly re-revisited... (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Spent grain bread recipe (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Ringwood yeast (Jeff Renner)
  RE: apartment kegging (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Re: Airlocks (do you needs them?) ("Ludwig's")
  My New Efficiency (EFOUCH)
  Don't Vaseline your rubber ("Hans E. Hansen")
  O-ring lube ("Hans E. Hansen")
  Premature jocularity (Matthew Arnold)
  Esters and phenols / lager malt for ale / Weissheimer malts (George_De_Piro)
  Beer places in Dallas (Steven Lichtenberg)
  oxidation (Al Korzonas)
  Ringwood yeast (Dave Bartz)


BURP's Spirit of Free Beer competition is June 6-7 and entry information
is available by contacting Jay Adams (adams at burp.org).


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.) 

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
**ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! 
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to brewery at hbd.org

Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org

Requests for back issues will be ignored. Back issues are available via:

  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:59:28 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: weavil

Hi to all (just back from vacation in Canada),

I also had (once) small vermin or Weavils or *$&#( at *'s or thingies or
little buggers in the malt. At work I tried to kill them by exposure to
vacuum (for at least 30 minutes). The only effect was to see them
growing. But they didn't explode.
In the same desiccator I put some dry ice (CO2). That killed the beasts.
I don't know if it was the CO2 or the temperature (dry ice = - 80
degr.C).
But after all I throwed the malt away, because I was afraid that the
Weavils had converted part of the malt in unwanted raw material for my
beer!
Heat will also kill, but I'm afraid that the caracter of the malt will
change.
Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:40:15 -0400
From: "Steven Jones" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Wort souring for p-Lambic

Hi all,

I'm going to try my hand at a p-Lambic next weekend. The recipe
I have says to cool the wort collected from the mash (before the boil)
to 125F, rack to a clean 6 gal fermenter, add a pound of pale malt, 
and cover for 24 hours. Then skim the surface, strain into the boiling 
pot, and continue as for a normal boil.

My question pertains to the pound of pale malt. Should it be whole
or crushed?

Happy Brewing,

sj
State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://home.att.net/~stjones1


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 14:01:29 +0200
From: D de Villiers <ddevilliers at hotmail.com>
Subject: Overnight boiling

Mash and sparge on Friday night.
Boil the wort for 10 minutes.
Switch the power off, insulate the boiler with blanket and 
leave it until Saturday morning.
On Saturday morning I start the boil again, add the hops and 
finish the brew process.

I was wondering if you can think of problems which can occur.
Will it depend on how far the wort cool down?
Will I have DMS problems or will it boil off in any case?
Will the copper boiler be a problem because of the acidity of the wort?
Can I add the hops and leave it overnight in the wort?

T.I.A

Danie de Villiers
Gauteng



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:20:20 -0400
From: Mark Hillman <mhillman at ebtech.net>
Subject: re: Hop around the clock



Use the sun as your reference.  The plant will grow towards the sun.  As
the sun moves across the horizon from east to west  the plant will follow
it's path.


Mark 


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:52:10 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: RIMS Ideas

Hiya:

I've been following the recent "induction RIMS" thread with passing interest,
and to those of you who are currently thinking about designing or improving your
RIMS I'd like to suggest some alternate design ideas for the heating chamber.

Micah Milspaw reports to me that for his RIMS heater, he uses a coil of copper
tubing that runs through a sealed container filled with oil (Micah sez the stuff
the uses is like "liquid vasoline when warm," but in response to my questions he
indicated that a water / glycol mixture would probably also work). The imersion
heater(s) -- which can be the cheapo high density sort -- is also installed in
this container, which I envision as being about one or two gallons in size and
could be made of mild steel, aluminium, or just about any sort of metal.  The
control sensor is in the outlet side of the tubing, and controls (via a simple
thermostat and relay) the heating element.  It's thus like the "coils in the
HLT" design that's been mentioned before, but uses a shorter coil that's in a
fluid that gives better heat transfer than water.

A variant on this theme would be to use a short counterflow chiller that's
constructed entirely of metal (a-la the Super Chiller mktd by Hearts Home Brew
[BTW, really sweet chiller, this]), with the "coolant" lines plumbed to a small
water + glycol reservoir and a small pump (which, of course, would need to be
able to handle hot liquid, but would not need to be food grade or magnetic
drive).  The immersion heater would be in the glycol reservoir. You could keep
the glycol at a constant temp (e.g., 175F) with a simple thermoswitch and
control the temp of the mash by controlling the glycol pump, or of course you
could get really exotic with some PID circuitry that controls the mash temp by
adjusting the wort pump speed, the glycol temp, and the glycol pump speed.

These designs appear to have several advantages.  First, they avoid the need to
keep the flow rate relatively high (as in traditional immersion heater RIMS) to
avoid scorching the wort -- the wort cannot get hotter than the bath fluid.
Second, they can be CIP'd very easily.  Third, they *might* provide enough
heating "umph" to handle temp boosts of 1C/min without overheating the wort.
Fourth, unlike the HLT design, you'd get a much quicker temp response, owing to
the smaller volume of the bath and the higher thermal conductance of the fluid.

And, of course, you don't need a degree in EE to try them out without risking
electrocution (though you'd need to take the same reasonable precautions as you
would with a conventional immersion heater RIMS).

Worth considering.

Louis K. Bonham



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:58:35 -0400
From: Mark Hillman <mhillman at ebtech.net>
Subject: Yeast reuse



I've read bits and pieces mentioning reusing the yeast from one batch of
beer for the next.  Can someone point me to specific info (details).  I
remember reading to just rack the wort onto the yeast cake in the primary
(from prior batch).  Is that it?

Thanks for any and all assistance.


Mark 


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:11:15 -0500
From: "Brian Wurst" <brian at mail.netwave.net>
Subject: butt-jelly re-revisited...

Pat Babcock posted to HBD#2723:
- --------quote-------------
Some may remember this exchange back in February, the forwarded being
the last installment. Immediately afterwards, having a good supply of
replacement o-rings purchased via a gift certificate to my local Brew
& Grow (thanks, Mom!), I ran downstairs, grabbed three of my least
favorite and most empty kegs, replaced the bung seals, lubricated
them  with Vaseline [tm], sealed and pressurized them. Just over
three months later, they are chewing gum, folks. I went down to open
the kegs, and large gobs of o-ring stuck to the keg, and to the bung.
The ring came off in pieces.

Based on this, I have to reiterate my original "don't
do it". It just takes longer than the other types of seals seem
to, but it breaks the black rubber seals down just as well. And,
- ----end quote-----------

Sorry to hear that, Pat!  I will not attempt to deny you your experience
but my experience with Vaseline(tm) remains free of the problems you have
encountered.  Further investigation is needed to explain this discrepancy:

Application:  How was your Vaseline(tm) applied?  I apply the thinnest of
layers in two areas - on the keg lid where the o-ring contacts it and on
the topside of the o-ring where it contacts the keg.  Upon application the
ring and the lid surface looks wet but no excess of Vaseline(tm) is to be
found.  If I were to wipe a dry finger on those areas with Vaseline(tm) I
would find my finger only slightly shiny, not unlike if one were to touch
their nose (on the outside, that is!).

Time of contact:  Nearly all my beers are consumed well before three months
in the keg, as you describe.  However, I have had some (barleywines, oily
oatmeal stouts, way overhopped IPAs, nasty fruit beers, nuclear
doppelbocks) which weren't as quickly consumed and spent greater than 9
months out in the cooler.  These showed no trace of the deterioration you
describe.

Storage temperature:  You made no mention of the storage temp for your
kegs, but mine spend all their time at about 45F.  Everything in this hobby
is time and temperature related and I cannot believe this would be exempt
from that dependence.

Storage location:  I do not know if you placed your test kegs in the same
location you store your "regular" kegs, but were they close to a motor?
Ozone given off from open contact motors does a wonderful job on rubber.
This is grasping at straws but it is a possibility, tho remote.

Again, I do not wish to discount your experience but only wish to determine
why it happened to you and not me.  I feel your admonition, "don't do it",
is valid.  It's like playing in the street or on railroad tracks...I did it
and lived but I agree it isn't a good idea for you.  However, carrying the
metaphor further, I will continue to play in the street while you're on the
curb telling others to stay out.  I'm comfortable with that arrangement.

Now, sing along with me - "Happy trails to you, until we meet again..."
Brian Wurst   brian at netwave.net     Lombard, Illinois
"Nature has formed you, desire has trained you, fortune has preserved you
for this insanity." -Cicero




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:24:31 -0400
From: Doug Moyer <Douglas.Moyer at geics.ge.com>
Subject: Another BigBrew 98 question (long)

Dearest digest,	
	Is my beer ruined? Two significant parts: 

(1) I used my usual wort aeration method of siphoning with a
Bernoulli-effect tube and a spray widget, combined with agressive
rolling-back-and-forth. I pitched three packets ( 5 g. each) of
Nottingham dry yeast. Although fermentation was aggressive (foamy mess
through my airlock, despite having 4.75 gal. in a 6.5 gal carboy), it
had a longer lag time than I expected (>24 hours before it really became
aggressive). Therefore, I figured that there wasn't enough oxygen for
the wee beasties in a big beer, and I figured the fermantation would
stick, which has happened to me a few times lately. All of this figuring
meant that I didn't bother to check the S.G. before I transfered to the
secondary this past Sunday--I went ahead and transferred it onto a
champagne yeast starter. Now to the ugly part....

(2) After the subject brewing session, as I was cleaning up my
equipment, I couldn't help but squeeze out all the wort left in the
hops. I had a lot of break trapped by the Irish moss. I tried boiling
the mess, but didn't get enough separation when I cooled it. I stuck it
in the fridge to let it settle. Three weeks later, it is about equally
split into break and clear wort. Saturday night I siphoned off the clear
wort (~25 oz.), tasted (yum!) and reboiled it. I cooled it and pitched a
(rehydrated) 5 g. packet of dry Red Star champagne yeast. When I had a
big crusty krausen, I poured it into the bottom of a 6.5 gal carboy, and
transferred (gently) the beer from the primary on top of the champagne
yeast starter. As I was transferring, I took a hydrometer reading and
saw that my S.G. = 1.012 (O.G. = 1.090), so I doubt I'll see much
reduction in gravity. 

I am currently seeing very little activity (starter finishing up?). My
concern is that I have all of that air sitting on top of the beer (4.5
gal. in a 6.5 gal. carboy) without sufficient CO2 production to displace
it. I have a long aging process ahead, and I am worried about developing
a wet-cardboard flavor. So, IMBR? Should I go ahead and transfer it to a
keg and try to purge with CO2? How about into a 5 gal. carboy? Any other
advice? Should I drink it all immediately to avoid oxidation? (Obviously
this is my first barleywine, and my first intentional aging.)

TIA and chiao,
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

p.s. It tastes great so far, although aging would definitely be
beneficial to mellow the alcohol's aggressiveness.

p.p.s. I am sure that some caring souls are concerned that methods like
mine will lead (eventually) to death by botulism poisoning. Therefore,
kiddies, do NOT try this at home.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:32:31 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: poly clar

Hi all,

Polyclar is a brandname for PVPP (polyvinylpolypyrrolidon) from ISP
(International Specialty Products). IMO it is a kind of plastic.
In contrast with (silica)gels it adsorbs polyphenols, mainly from the
hops.
As you (could) know is the cold trub the combination of  protein and
polyphenols
which can convert in permanent trub.
So it is possible to choose for removing protein or polyphenols or
possible combinations.
Typical dosing 20-50 g/hl
Polyclar is on the market in different grades: more than 1 usable
(Polyclar Super R)
and for single use (Polyclar 10, fine grade; Polyclar SB 100, coarse
grade; Polyclar QM).
Polyclar 10 Polyclar Super R

color white white to off-white
solubility insol. in water, acids, alkali, solvents insol. in water,
acids, alkali, solvents
particle size 0-75 m
moisture (Karl Fischer) 6.0 % 6.0
pH (1% suspension) 5.0-11.0 5.0-11.0
Specific surface area 1.2 m2/g
% adsorptive capacity  min. 40
swell volume  max 55
filter flow rate  100-180


Polyclar QM (Quick mix) (almost equivalent for Polyclar 10) is a wet
filtercakewith 27% solids. The advantage is that is ready for using, so
it doesn't need preparing with water.

Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:38:43 +0000
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Swedish Stark-Porter

This weekend I had the fortune to sample  a bottle of D. Carnegie & 
Co. Stark Porter brewed by AB Pripps Bryggerrier,  Sundsvall, Sweden. 
 I found that it had a rich, smoky taste unlike any other porter I've 
tried.  

Is there a whole range of these porters that I've never known of?  It 
doesn't seem to fit either of the BJCP porter categories; are there 
sufficient other examples of this style to warrant a separate Swedish 
of Strong Porter category?

For those of you who familiar with the brew, what goes into making 
it?
Tidmarsh Major, Birmingham, Alabama
tidmarsh at mindspring.com
"Bot we must drynk as we brew,
   And that is bot reson."
    -The Wakefield Master, Second Shepherds' Play


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:38:43 +0000
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Spent grain baking, _Handbook of Brewing_

I found another source of information about spent grain baking this 
weekend in _The Handbook of Brewing_ (William A. Hardwick, ed. New 
York: Marcel Dekker, 1995).  Pages 520-521 discuss preparing the 
spent grain for baking and provide a table listing different baked 
products and appropriate percentages of spent grain to add.

Speaking of _The Handbook of Brewing_, I haven't seen a mention of it 
here.  It is aimed toward a mega- and microbrewery audience, but it 
looks interesting.  I only had a few minutes to glance over it while 
at the library, but it seemed to have some potentially useful 
information, including a chapter of brewing formulae.  The chapter 
authors were mostly mega-brewery affiliated, but Bert Grant wrote 
the chapter on hops, and one of the Siebel faculty wrote another 
chapter, though I don't remember which.  

I did notice that in reference to boil evaporation rates, the only 
comment was that a minimum of 8% was necessary, with no mention of 
maximum.
Tidmarsh Major, Birmingham, Alabama
tidmarsh at mindspring.com
"Bot we must drynk as we brew,
   And that is bot reson."
    -The Wakefield Master, Second Shepherds' Play


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:45:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Airborne nasties; weevils; hop around the clock; apartment kegging

In HBD 2721, Hans Hansen asks how we aerate without risking infection:
> What about all of that airborne
> stuff that you are trying to keep out with airlocks?

For many of us, that's mostly dust, cat hair, and bugs, not airborne
individual bacteria.  My house air is clean enough that I don't get
infections.  The key is to pitch plenty of yeast, and aerate so they
can grow more.  They will rapidly change the wort so it's a bad
environment for bacterial growth.

I'd only worry about sanitizing your aeration air if, like Al K, you
have found that you are getting infections.

If you need to, and you "don't want to spend the $ for" an O2 bottle
set-up, you could check into an aquarium air-pump and filter.  Check
back issues of HBD for details.  Don't trust the "bubble air through
sanitizer" types of set-up, as most of the groaties in the air will
just ride safely through in the middle of the bubble.

Relatedly, Dr. Pivo posts in 2722:
> I've been fiddling with airlocks.  The results are pretty preliminary,
> but it's starting to look like you don't need them.

Airlocks keep particulates and bugs out, and help keep the CO2 layer
intact once primary fermentation has slowed down.  They aren't an O2
barrier.  There was some discussion on HBD a few months ago about
designing a truly osmosis-resistant airlock.

Domenick Venezia posts in 2723:
> This is not surprizing as open fermentation is/was widely used to great
> success.

This is usually the primary fermentation.  I haven't heard of anyone who
stays with true open fermentation once the krausen has fallen.

Domenick also writes:
> I know a brewer who brews great beer and never uses an airlock
> on his carboys.  He just uses plastic wrap and a rubber band.

Just to be fussy about it, that's not really an open fermentation.  Open
fermentation lets O2 get at the fermentation.  That's just an informal
airlock.  It depends on a continuous outflow of CO2 to maintain an O2-free
environment -- but really, so does a regular airlock.

 - - - - - - - - - -
In HBD 2722, Jon Bovard asks whether weevils in the malt will affect his
beer.  You might need to add a protein rest...
 - - - - - - - - - -
In HBD 2723, Alan Keith Meeker asks about training hops clockwise.  This
is because they will follow the sun as they grow, so you should train
them in that direction.  In the USA, the sun goes east-to-west in the
southern part of the sky.  Your vines follow it, from east through south
to west, then they hurry back around through north to face east again.

This is clockwise as seen from above.  In the southern hemisphere, the
sun goes across the northern part of the sky, so you would train them
clockwise as seen from below.

In Ecuador, hop vines grow in vertical loops.
   :-)   <-- smiley added for the humor impaired

> hmmmmm I should
> probably let them go whichever way they feel like.

The traditional advice is telling you what way they will feel like growing.
 - - - - - - - - - -
In HBD 2723, LowpineUno says:

> I too have no room for an extra frig.

We don't want to hear it, just stick to brewing.
   :-)   <-- smiley added for the humor impaired

> Anyway, my idea is a post-keg beer chiller.

Works fine.  This is called a "jockey box."  I don't know why.  You can
search for that term in the HBD archives or Deja News for
rec.crafts.brewing, and find lots of good plans and advice.

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:06:46 -0400
From: Jeff Grey <jgrey at cbg.com>
Subject: Re: Affordable Dental Plans


I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IDIOT WOULD POST SPAM IN THIS NEWSLETTER ! It is
bad enough that I get this crap in my mailbox everyday.  Can anything be
done about this ??


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 14:25:09 GMT
From: marnold at netnet.net (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Titletown Open IV Winners / Special Thanks

The winners of Titletown Open IV have been posted on the Green Bay Rackers'
website at http://www.rackers.org/openwin.html Our thanks go out to all the
judges, helpers, and anyone who entered!

I must also thank AlK, Spencer, Jeff Renner, et al, who gave me tips and advice
on my Munich Dunkel recipe. It took second place in the Dark category! Yippee!

I'm brewing a barleywine today. I hope to enter it in Titletown Open V next
May! Nothing like planning ahead.

Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:08:43 PDT
From: "Rosenzweig,Steve" <Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com>
Subject: Hops read clocks?

I'm not sure, but I don't think hops know from clockwise or counter 
 clockwise - they probably just follow the sun . . . mine wind 
 clockwise looking from above, following the morning sun in the east 
 and through the day to the west . . . I guess all that momentum is 
 what wraps them around the back of the twine at night (those suckers 
 grow fast!).

Before anybody starts bashing our janitors for the recent couple of 
 chunks of spam - shut up!  If you can do it better, Pat & Karl might 
 like the summer off - put up or shut up!

ObBrew:  This is heresy, I'm sure, but a few months ago I made an 8.5 
 gallon batch of 1.050 PrePro Lager - set 5 aside for bottling and the 
 other 3.5 for kegging.  It looked like way too short of a keg, so I 
 topped it off with preboiled water.   My inlaws & I killed it over 
 memorial day just to watch it die!  It surely was no award winning 
 homebrew, but it was just right for the occasion . . . and light 
 enough to be a good all day drinkin' beer.  I knew the keg was in 
 trouble when they started passing over the Milwaukees Beast Light in 
 favor of the homebrew!   I'll have to schedule in a couple of them 
 next season - bet I can make 3 out of a 10 gallon batch!

Steve in Ontario NY


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:04:34 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: yeast aeration, alcohol tolerance, the aha, butt lube

Pat should just use Dow Corning Silicone high vacuum grease.

Dan McConnell and Ken Schramm had a Rhubarb beer at the AHA talk a few
years ago that was excellent.

>From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at ventrassist.com>
>Subject: starting aeration
>
>Maybe this is Tracy's current theory - certainly not mine, and I doubt
>you'd find many brewing scientists who agreed with this. This has been
>bugging me since I first read Tracy's BT article, so feel compelled to
>finally add a counter opinion, when it is claimed to be "current
>theory".
>

I think the original intent that Tracy had was that if you grow the yeast
under constant aeration and provide no gowth limiting amounts of FAN then
you can pitch wiht no aeration.  This is hardly his "theory"  Research has
shown this to be the case.  For starters (grin) read CRC Critical Reviews
in mIcrobiology "Ethanol tolerance in Yeasts" Vol 13, Issue 3 as well as
Applied and Environ. Micro vol 48, no 3 p. 639 as a start.  These guy were
able to ferment 28 P wort and repitch the yeast five times with no loss in
viability.  They even fermented 32 P with no problems.  I'm not saying that
this how you should make beer though.

Researchers who have studied fermentation under anaerobic conditions have
to go to major extremes to eliminate any and all oxygen.  If even a trace
is present the yeast suck it up and it effects the results.  So I feel that
if you make your starter with proper amounts of FAN and use constant
aeration you should not have to worry about aeration too much.  I typically
chill my wort to 4 C to drop as much cold break as possible and then filter
into my fermenter and have had no stcuk ferments.  I don't brew lagers at
all though.  

Also between the recent bigbrew discussion and the "high gravity article in
BT I was remind that "alcohol tolerance" is really and ill defined term and
that champagne yeast is really no more alcohol tolerant than is ale yeast.
There is much more to getting complete fermentation than just throwing more
yeast at it.  The BT author is largely incorrect in stating that there is a
12% alcohol limit.  This is largely a momily. See above and the literature,
particularly wrt to Sake'.

>From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at NOSPAMfcc.net>
>Subject: AHA NHC comments / YEast growth, aeration, etc.
>

>> Dave is correct, but what he also helps dig a slightly deeper hole for
>> the AHA.  The AHA does control the judging assignements for the second
<snip>

Goerge and a few other have been mentioning their displeasure with the AHA.
 An easy solution is to not enter.  We all have the choice not to
participate and not give the AHA (aob) our money.  If we all started doing
this and entered local comps and the MCAB maybe the AHA Nationals would dry
up and go away like the Indy 500.  And another largley unpopular idea is
for the BJCP to boycott the AHA nationals.  This would send a clear message
to the AHA of who is in charge. :-)  And if the MCAB turns out ot suck then
another laternative can be formed.  Also george gripes about the AHA not
listening.  Well the AHA is part of the AOB and we know who is really in
charge.  Jim Parker and now Amahl did not leave the AHA just because of
better jobs.  I still subscribe to Zymurgy and am concerned that it is
looking more like All about Beer all the time.

>>
>> I am a bit confused about this whole "don't aerate the wort to reduce
>> esters and other yeast by-products" thread.
>>
>> According to Kunze, ester formation is inhibited as long as yeast are
>> producing fatty acids and lipids.  Yeast produce these compounds
>> utilizing oxygen.  If you take away the oxygen, you inhibit lipid
>> synthesis, and thus allow ester synthesis to occur.  So wouldn't you
>> want to give the yeast oxygen to keep ester levels low?

But if the yeast are grown under highly aerobic conditions they should have
the maximum 1% lipid level and be ready to go. Homebrewers are not like
commercial brewers, we rarely repitch so we are always growing yeast and
not harvesting very often.  Or just use 24 ppm ergesterol, 0.24% tween 80
and 0.8% yeast extract. 

>>
>> Another point that both Kunze and the folks at Siebel make is that
>> decreased fermentation temperature increases overall ester production.
>> This is the opposite of what most homebrewers believe.  Any comments?


Is this in regards to all beer or only lager.  Please define the tmeprature
ranges you are talking about.  I don't have Kunze, YET.  But why should I
pay shipping when I can carry it on the plane?


>>
>> Increased temperature does increase yeast growth, which invariably
>> increases the production of higher alcohols.  Kunze talks about the
>> importance of the ratio of higher alcohols to esters, saying that the
>> optimum is 1:2.5-3 (this is from Narziss, Brauwelt 45 (1995).  Could
>> it be that at higher fermentation temperatures the ratio of higher
>> alcohols to esters is skewed, giving the impression of a fruitier
>> product when in fact esters levels are actually lower than in a
>> cold-fermented beer?  The cold-fermented beer will have fewer higher
>> alcohols.

Again you need to define these temperatures.  Higher temps (> 25 C) really
seem to effect yeast' ablity to survive in given amounts of alcohol.  And
again is Kunze talking about lagers only or all beer?

Jim Liddil



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:09:32 -0700
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Copper Tub

Whilst out flea-marketing, I came across an old copper washing machine
(patent date 1911 from the Laun-DRY-ette company). It is approximately 30
inches in diameter and 24 inches in height with a drain on the bottom edge.
It came on a sturdy (albeit rusty) metal frame with castors. It has a 3
inch square patch in the center of the bottom that is welded in place. It
has a tight fitting lid that appears to be aluminum. The gauge of the
copper is not very high and is probably less than a mil. The cost was $25
(without even haggling).

Some questions:

Can this contact wort or is there some alloy that might have been used to
weld the seams that would prevent it?

Can I apply heat to the vessel directly without concerns (ie is it thick
enough)?

Are there any concerns with the patch welded in the bottom?

How much volume will this hold (read: I'm too lazy to find the formula and
do the math)?

What should I do to make this brew-worthy?

I would like to use this as a kettle rather than mash tun, as I don't plan
on making 30+ gallon batches any time soon...

If I can't use it, the wife is going to put plants in it (cringe!).

Peace!

John
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net
   



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:12:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Brewer's Love Song?

A great brewer's love song is on the radio.  aka:

   Fields of Gold, by Sting:

   You will think of me when the west wind blows
   Upon the fields of barley
   You'll forget the sun in his jealous sky
   As we walk in fields of gold.

   ...

If you like smooth, mellow music, you'll probably enjoy it.

I mention this because, when you hear Sting's enunciation
on car stereo speakers, it sounds like "Upon the fields
of arlgneigh..."

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:29:03 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: butt-jelly re-revisited...

>From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>

>lubricated 
>them  with Vaseline [tm], sealed and pressurized them. Just over 
>three months later, they are chewing gum, folks. I went down to open 
>the kegs, and large gobs of o-ring stuck to the keg, and to the bung. 
>The ring came off in pieces. 

I think that petroleum based oils are very harmful to rubber, silicone
based oils are OK.  I do not know about vegetable based oils.  I have
been using PAM (the spray stuff for cooking), and it seems to work well.
The ingredients say Canola oil.  Now I have read about the need for beer
glasses to be immaculately clean and oil free, or the foam head will
quickly dissipate, however I do not have any problems.  Any thoughts?

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:30:35 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Spent grain bread recipe

Note the dichotomy in the two statements below.

Jeremy York <jeremy at ThemeMedia.com> wrote:

    >> Hrm, now I'm wondering if some of the yeast collected from
    >> sediment would be any good for making bread...
       ^^^^^^^^

Jeff" == Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> writes:

    Jeff> I'd suggest a tablespoon of thick pasty top cropped yeast ...
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sediment is BAD for bread, because it has lots of stuff in it besides
yeast, and that stuff tastes NASTY.  Maybe sediment from secondary
would be ok.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:36:28 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Ringwood yeast

Alan Meeker wrote:

>At the GABF I had an ale made with Ringwood yeast - it had a very
>interesting taste profile! Has anyone here had any experience with this
>yeast? Is it a single strain? Any widespread commercial examples of its
>use? Reliable sources of cultures?

YeastLab A09  "English"  is Ringwood, according to a Dec. 14, 1994 post to
HBD by Dan McConnell, who produces YeastLab's liquid yeasts (not the dry).
Dan's Yeast Culture Kit Co. also has it at
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/yckcotbl.html (no affiliation except that Dan
is a friend who gives me yeast, but, as Dave Draper is fond of quoting me
as having said, "I can't be bought for a mere $3.50").  There are at least
two distinctly different strains that are called Ringwood.  The real McCoy
is a strong top cropper and has high O2 needs.  A local brewpub (Pugsley
design, so the yeast is authentic as Pugsley is affiliated with Ringwood
founder Peter Austin) using it actually pumps over a fountain of fermenting
wort partway through the ferment to aerate it.  They just throw in a
submersible pump and pump up a frothy fountain.  Not surprisingly, their
ales have a distinctive diacetyl house character.

NCYC 1187, which forms no yeast head at all, is also often referred to as
Ringwood on HBD.  I don't know why as it's a much different yeast, selected
for quick sedimentation in cylindro-conical fermenters.  It produces no
diacetyl in my experience.  This yeast is used by Ann Arbor's other brewpub
(Arbor Brewing Co., the better one in my not so humble opinion, and not
because of the yeast).

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:36:00 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: apartment kegging

>From: LowpineUno <LowpineUno at aol.com>

>Anyway, my idea is a post-keg beer chiller. Similar to the wort chiller
with
>the copper tubing.  Take a length of copper tubing......

Copper is not good to be in contact with beer long term, so stainless
tubing is recommended.

>On the non-spigot end
>attach some appropriate sized plastic tubing, one end of the tubing
goes over
>the copper tubing, the other end shall have the picnic tap wedged
inside....

It would be better to have the picnic tap on the output side of the coil
so that pressure will be maintained, or else the beer remaining in the
tubing will go flat!

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:36:51 -0400
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Re: Airlocks (do you needs them?)

Dr Pivo says:

> I've been fiddling with airlocks.  The results are pretty preliminary,
> but it's starting to look like you don't need them.
> 

Yes, I read the write up. Maybe you don't need them. But,then again,
using a plastic airlock is about the easiest thing to do in brewing,
IMHO. And it gives you a pretty good indication of your fermentation
activity. Does plastic and a rubber band give you that? 
This is starting to sound like an attempt to drag out the old beatin'
horse. Sorry. 
Later.

dave ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
SO MD


Return to table of contents


Date: 26 May 1998 12:55:46 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: My New Efficiency


HBD-
After finishing up my first batch of beer made in my new 10 gal Gott, I got a
bittersweet surprise:
My efficiency went up from 75% to 85%!  (over a slotted copper 5 gal boil pot,
now no longer doing double duty)

On the down side, I now have to figure out what to do with 7 gallons of OG
1.075 beer, when I was expecting 7 gallons of 1.050 beer.  Typically with this
recipe, I add 12 oz of orange juice concentrate to the secondary for my OJ
Amber Ale.  Then I saw (finally) in the late issue of BT, an article on
brewing more homebrew by diluting high gravity homebrew:  Brew it to high
gravity, then diluting with water at packaging.  Based on this article, I was
thinking of diluting the OJ concentrate to one gallon with water, then adding
it to the secondary.
Other than the intuitively repulsive idea of diluting home brewed beer, does
this sound kosher?  I mean orthodox?  No wait, I mean zymurgilogically sound?

Eric Fouch
Sensitivity Trainer
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood MI

"Don't let a lack of qualificatins stop you from pursuing your career goals.
I was never qualified for any of the positions I acheived."

 -Sonny Bono, an excerpt from "I'm Living Proof You Can Have The American
Dream"


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:02:41 -0700
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: Don't Vaseline your rubber

Pat Babcock questions why Vaseline works for some and not others.
(I am refering to rubber gaskets here folks.)

Your local auto mechanic has the answer to this.  In cars, rubber
seals are made of neoprene, which is resistant to petroleum
products.  In the case of O-rings and seals for kegs, I suppose
some brands are neoprene and others aren't.  Virtually all O-rings
I have seen are neoprene, but I am in the auto business.

Keep Vaseline away from regular rubber and latex (snicker).

Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:09:10 -0700
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: O-ring lube

Oops! Forgot to include this comment in the previous post.

Use silicon lube on rubber instead of Vaseline.  It won't eat it.
You can find 'food grade' silicon, but personally I just use the
hardware store variety.  Just make sure it doesn't have various
additives commonly used in lubricants.  Some brands of silicon
lube actually add petroleum products, which kills the advantage
of using silicon.  One key is to check the label to see if it
specifically says it is safe on rubber and plastic.

Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:29:10 GMT
From: marnold at netnet.net (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Premature jocularity

Sadly, there was an error in the original information I received about the
Titletown Open IV results. The corrections have been made and the website now
has the proper information. One of the changes was my beer which actually
finished fifth instead of second. My thanks still go to all who helped with the
recipe.

Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:42:13 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Esters and phenols / lager malt for ale / Weissheimer malts

     Hi all,
     
     This is a peeve of mine, so please forgive the analness of it:  the 
     clove character found in German wheat beers is NOT from an ester!  It 
     is a phenolic compound (4-vinyl guiaucol) that we perceive as 
     clove-like spiciness.
     
     The banana character is indeed from an ester, iso-amylacetate.
     
     I don't know if Wyeast 3068 is multi-strain, but "delbruekii" is not 
     lager yeast (which is S. uvarum, formerly S. carlsbergensis).  Lager 
     yeast wouldn't be too prone to producing the funky flavors of 
     Bavarian Weizen, anyway.
     ----------------------------------
     Michael K. asks about using "lager" malts for ales, and tells us that 
     he was told that doing so may produce too much diacetyl.
     
     It won't effect diacetyl levels.  The major difference between malt 
     labeled as "Pils" (or "Pilsner") and "pale ale" is the kilning 
     schedule.  Pale ale malts are kilned at a higher temperature, making 
     them a bit darker than Pilsner malt.  This also effects the flavor of 
     the malt.  Pilsner malt will have more SMM in it, which can cause 
     increased levels of DMS in your beer (yes Bill G., I know DMS is 
     necessary to a point...).  That may or may not be welcome in your ESB.
     
     For what it's worth, I brew ales with Pilsner malt quite often.  In 
     fact, I just courageously brewed a South English Brown ale using 
     something like 50% Munich malt and 30% pilsner malt (both from 
     Germany).  The wort smelled great!
     -----------------------------------
     Somebody (sorry, don't remember who) asked if Weissheimer malt is well 
     modified.  They may even have asked specifically about Munich malt (I 
     didn't sleep enough last night, which is why I'm so vague, sorry).
     
     Somewhere I do have Weissheimer specs.  While I can't post the exact 
     numbers now, they are well modified (as the original poster's "chew 
     test" indicated).  In fact, German maltsters aim for well modified 
     malt when producing Munich malt.  The reason given is so that they 
     have higher concentrations of amino acids available to react with 
     sugars to form melanoidins during the kilning of the malt.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:43:54 -0400
From: Steven Lichtenberg <slichten at pci-net.com>
Subject: Beer places in Dallas

I know these types of requests have been out of favor for a while but I am 
going to Dallas next week.  Anyone have any don't miss places to go while 
there?

Thanks..

________________________________________
Steven Lichtenberg
Progressive Consultants, Inc.
"Your Progress is Our Business"
E-Mail:  slichten at pci-net.com
Tel:       (703) 790-9316
Fax:      (703) 790-9248
________________________________________




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 14:46:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: oxidation

Sorry about the delay... I was at the Mayo Clinic for a week...
doctor says it's "Benign Vertigo" and I'll just have to get used to it.

Dr. Pivo writes:
>On the other hand, some
>wimpy tasting modern commercial lagers are virtually
>"indestructable".... A Buweiser sold in the U.K. is just as innocuous
>and insipid as it is in St. Louis (personal opinion)

Just for the record, Budweiser in the UK is brewed under contract 
*IN* the UK.  I too have had it (oh, the sacrifices we make in the
interest of knowledge!) and it does taste just like that made in St. Louis
(or the, what, seven (?) other plants around the US).

Also just for the record, I have a fine working knowledge of the
difference between oxidation and oxygen.

Oh, and regarding Budweiser and oxidation, I believe it was Dr. Fix
who once talked about a problem with oxidation of Bud at a contract
plant in Japan.  It seems that in the interest of efficiency, some
piping was altered from the A-B-approved plans.  This resulted in
the splashing of hot wort and a subsequent darkening of the beer.
I cannot say for sure that I recall any flavour/aroma problems were
reported, so I won't guess.  If anyone knows more details of this story,
please post.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:58:20 -0400
From: Dave Bartz <gbrewer at iquest.net>
Subject: Ringwood yeast


ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
said:
>>>>>At the GABF I had an ale made with Ringwood yeast - it had a very
interesting taste profile! Has anyone here had any experience with this
yeast? Is it a single strain? Any widespread commercial examples of its
use? Reliable sources of cultures?<<<<<<<<<<<

White Labs of San Diego cultures and supplies the Ringwood strain to both
commercial breweries
and homebrew supply retailers.  They call it British Ale yeast and it's
description is as follows:
>
WLP005- British Ale Yeast:Our most award winning yeast strain, this yeast is
a little more attenuative then our English Ale WLP002. Like most English
strains, this yeast produces malty beers. Excellent for all English style
ales including bitter, pale ale, porter, and brown ale. Attenuation is
67-74%. Flocculation is High. Optimum fermentation temperature is 65-70
degrees. 
<
You're right.  Its taste profile is a complex fruitiness that becomes more
distinctive the more you experience its taste. It produces excellent stouts
and porters.
The yeast was used in a couple of AHA NHC Gold Medal winners last year.
White Labs web page is at: http://www.whitelab.com/

Affiliated as a retailer that outsells White Labs 4 to 1 over Wyeast.
     
Dave Bartz (Prez) "Beer is good" - 5000 B.C.
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/



Return to table of contents

---