---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Trebernbrot / Treberweizen ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  simple grain test ? (Dave Bartz)
  AAHHHH Summer! (Low Bandwidth time) ("Jeffrey M. Kenton")
  Mashing Equipment (Mike Isaacs)
  3086 Data Point ("Eric Schoville")
  YEast growth, aeration, etc. ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  stuff (Andy Walsh)
  Judges needed forBUZZ off ("Chuck Hanning")
  too long in carboy = no conditioning yeast?? (Richard Cox)
  Big Brew '98 Stats-Abridged ("Jethro Gump")
  Hop Side shoots (Dan Morley)
  Mail order with free shipping? ("E. Darren Ellis")
  lager yeast (Dirk Server)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Jethro Gump")
  Water Problems (oberlbk)
  pressure cooking as thermal loading (kathy)
  Help with unmalted wheat (Zurekbrau)
  Gravity adjustment at bottling/hop isomerization (Dave Humes)
  Spent grain recipe ("Steve Blanchard")
  Re: Butt Lube (Some Guy)
  Wet, Soft and Warm, thats how I like em (Charley Burns)
  Summer Cap-Off '98 ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Kegging System Sources ("Goll, Christopher M.")
  Handbook of brewing (Michael Rose)
  Wyeast, OJ Ale? ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Re: Handbook of brewing ("Tidmarsh Major")


BURP's Spirit of Free Beer competition is June 6-7 and entry information
is available by contacting Jay Adams (adams at burp.org).


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:06:15 +0100
From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Trebernbrot / Treberweizen

Hello all,

I've two hints for usage of spent grains:

TREBERNBROT
   (bread with spent grains):

In 1996 we visited the beer garden of Brewery Aying - a rather small 
brewery but IMHO one of the best ones in Bavaria ...if not Germany! 
It's located on the countryside near Munich.
Needless to say - food and beer were delicious, but the "Trebernbrot" 
attracted all the rest of our attention! The Austrian ;-) chef even 
gave us a loaf of the bread for free but he made a big secret about the 
composition.
Luckily the waitress was more communicative and told us, that it would 
be very essential to dry the spent grains prior to doughing in ...and I 
think that's not only because of inhibiting spoiling of the wet grains 
during storage.

Since then we baked "some batches" of Trebernbrot at home with big 
success. On brewday we dry some of the spent grains  at 160C on a baking 
sheet (shallow layer, only max.1/2" thick). Then we pack it into 
portions of 250 grams each (batch size) and store them in the freezer.

Helen's Trebernbrot recipe:

200-250g dried Trebern (spent grains)

250g per kg of flour is the highest level that has proven to give good 
bread.

300g rye flour
700g wheat flour
30g dry extract of sour dough
20g dry baker's yeast
tsp honey
tsp salt

Season according to your palate with crushed coriander, aniseed, 
caraway and fennel.

Mash in ...er, dough in with approx. 850 mL water and let rest 
overnight. Wake up early and bake your "Trebernbrot".
 
~~~~~

TREBERWEIZEN

Recently I brewed a wheat without any barley malt but just mashed it 
onto the spent grains cake of the previous batch. The resulting beer is 
so good (IMHO) that I dare to post my records to this forum.

I removed approx. the top 1/3-1/2 of the spent grains cake after I 
lautered the first batch - an ale from 12kg grain bill (10% wheat, rest 
barley and special malts - I use an insulated mash-/lautertun).

I added 6kg of wheat malt and 1kg of rye malt. I was not able to do 
exact calculations - so I was happy to reach 44C after doughing in with 
12L water of 53C. The consistency was very pastry. My goal was to get 
some ferulic acid (precursor for 4VG ... the clovey one) with this 20 
minutes rest. I don't worry about the glucans (rye malt) since I know 
from own experience, that it's probably impossible to get stuck mashes 
with a  lautersystem made of slotted pipes (but warning! - I do now 
that friends using false bottoms get stuck mashes when using even small 
amounts of rye). I didn't neutralize the carbonates in my hard brewing 
water until sacc. temps. Ferulic acid is best formed at 40-45C and a pH 
above 5.7 (according to Narziss).

Adding 11L of boiling water yielded in a sacc. temp. of 67C. I then 
neutralized the negative effects of residual alkalinity (11dH in my 
case) by adding 200g of acid (lactic) malt. Within one hour (...had to 
finish the other batch in the meantime) temp. dropped to 65C.

After adding another 6L boiling water I ...er - my mash... finally 
reached 71C ...no more room in the mashtun to add further water and no 
more time to make a decoction - so I started lautering right after 
finishing the previous batch (approx. 20 mins) at given temp. of 70C 
(no mashout).

FWH with 40g Yakima Cascade Pellets, 5.5%a (...I like that hop and 
luckily I've got a good friend over there in Washington).

Open fermentation with Weihenstephan E38, a local, rather clovey wheat 
strain - but W#3068 should give similar results.

That was a hard brewday - one of those days to remember ...proud (why 
not!) of the work that has been done. I got 36L Treberweizen  at 12.8P, 
25L Coriander Ale and (I did a split boil on the first batch) 31L 
Copper Ale. -Total 92L ...think that should last for a month or so ;-)

The Treberweizen brew turned out very viscous, with a creamy head, very 
clovey and ...now that I think of it... maybe a little hint on spent 
(oxidized?) grains aroma that blends well with the overall clovey 
character.

Sorry for being so long winded but thought there's some room for us in 
the queue now.

CHEERS &
sehr zum Wohle!

Helene, baking bread and
Hubert, brewing wheat
in Salzburg, Austria (100km east of Aying)




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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:29:29 -0400
From: Dave Bartz <gbrewer at iquest.net>
Subject: simple grain test ?

Regarding
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: simple grain test ?

I bought some Weissheimer pilsner malt, distributed by I.D.
Carlson, and wanted to know what the protein and modification
levels etc were but calling the distributor was no help, they
claimed to have no numbers on the grain............

Weissheimer has a web page with all the numbers at:
http://www.weissheimer.de/enghome.htm 
     
Dave Bartz (Prez) "Beer is good" - 5000 B.C.
http://www.the-gourmet-brewer.com/



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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:02:34 -0500
From: "Jeffrey M. Kenton" <jkenton at iastate.edu>
Subject: AAHHHH Summer! (Low Bandwidth time)

Howdy folks. I saw a couple of ads in recent HBDs, which means that summer
is here, and the janitors are spending their time doing something
worthwhile (not shackled to the server). I appreciate very much what those
guys are doing (for free, I might add), and I won't complain about the ads.
Here is what I do to deal with unwanted ads in messages. I hit the page
down key, and remember that I enjoyed being outside in my garden, or
washing my car, or mowing the lawn. Why should I deprive the hardworkingest
digest janitors of the same simple pleasures, or expect them to deprive
themselves?

Keep up the good work, I love the result every day.

The beer-related posts tend to be of such high quality that I don't care
about the occasional solicitation. Sometimes the ads can be funny to read
in and of themselves.

- ---------

Is there a good resource out there for sensory evaluation that includes
commercial beers that I don't need to spike? I know about rolling rock and
DMS, and bud and acetaldehyde. Others? Webpages that satiate this need?

- ---------

Thanks for the heads-up regarding the classic beer style series at the
Ames, IA Waldenbooks. 1-8 except #3 and #7. The price was so unbelievable
(sub $5 each), I had to snap them up. Are there others out there who have
seen this offer at a bookstore that include the other four books (# 3, 7,
9, & 10)? I would be willing to pay the purchase price plus shipping to get
them. Excellent books.

I love the HBD

Jeff

Jeffrey M. Kenton    jkenton at iastate.edu
Ames, Iowa           brewer at iastate.edu




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Date: Tue, 26 May 98 16:13:44 -0000
From: Mike Isaacs <misaacs at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Mashing Equipment

Hello all,

I am about to make the jump into all-grain brewing. Anyway, after much
research (only because money is involved,) I have decided to buy a 54 
quart
kettle with a spigot, Cache 125K burner, Gott cooler, Phalse bottom, and a
immersion chiller. My questions:

I brew 5 gallons batches now. I assume a 54qt boiler will not be big 
enough
for 10 gallon batches. Should I go for the cheaper 40qt kettle? Should I
hang-on the the 10 gallon batch dream?

Can I find a modified keg at a comparable price? 

What type of hop screen will work best for the boiler. Keep in mind, that 
I
own about 3 screwdrivers, a hammer and have *never* been called 'handy'.

The Phalse bottom is ends with a hose and clamp, correct? Is it difficult 
to
build a spigot for the cooler, instead?

Any general Comments about this proposed set-up?

TIA,
misaacs at bigfoot.net


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Date: 26 May 98 16:49:31 -0700
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: 3086 Data Point

All,

	Another data point on the 3068 thread.  This winter, I 
made a dunkelweizen after which I racked a weizen onto the 
yeast cake.  The dunkelweizen has the wonderful banana flavors; 
the weizen does not.  The two beers were fermented at similar
primary temperatures, but the secondary on the dunkelweizen
was a bit cooler and fluctuating.  

Eric Schoville in Dallas




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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 01:40:50 +0100
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com>
Subject: YEast growth, aeration, etc.

George De Piro brings up the issue of ester formation in relation to
several factors, including aeration, lipid synthesis, and fermentation
temperature. This is a very complex issue and I do not pretend to be
an expert on this subject, but as my thesis topic touches on these
issues, I feel inclined to offer a few remarks:

First of all, I just want to mention that despite decades of research
on ester production in beer, there seems to be very little that
researchers absolutely agree upon. Over 80 different esters have been
identified in beer and there is definitely more than one mechanism
involved. One thing that is agreed upon is that ester formation in
beer is too fast not to be enzymatically assisted. Some esters seem to
be dependent on a single enzyme, while others can be formed from
multiple enzymes. Throw in the fact that all the precursors (and some
of the enzymes) are shared by other biochemical pathways and you have
a terribly complex situation. Most research focuses on just a few
esters (notably the acetate esters) but it should be remembered that
process parameters that affect one ester in a certain way may not
affect other esters in the same way at all. On top of all that, ester
formation is very much strain-dependent. That being said . . .

> I am a bit confused about this whole "don't aerate the wort to
reduce
> esters and other yeast by-products" thread.
>
> According to Kunze, ester formation is inhibited as long as yeast
are
> producing fatty acids and lipids.  Yeast produce these compounds
> utilizing oxygen.  If you take away the oxygen, you inhibit lipid
> synthesis, and thus allow ester synthesis to occur.  So wouldn't you
> want to give the yeast oxygen to keep ester levels low?

Yes, it is generally agreed upon that ester synthesis competes with
yeast growth for the pool of acetyl CoA (or higher homologues) and so
anything that promotes growth (such as the availability of O2 to
synthesize unsaturated fatty acids) will inherently suppress ester
formation (and vice versa). There are definitely some faults in this
theory (esp. regarding temperature), but it holds true in many
circumstances. For instance, elevated ester levels in high gravity
brewing are usually attributed to the fact that lower relative
oxygenation rates, increased osmotic pressure, and higher ethanol
levels all work to suppress yeast growth. However, work published by
folks at the Brewing Research Foundation in 1994 (JASBC, v52, pp84-90)
shows that oxygenation levels have the opposite effect on isoamyl
acetate formation over the range of 0.75 to 5.4 ppm of O2 in their
pilot-scale fermentations using both lager and ale strains of yeast.
They pretty much discount the whole yeast growth vs. ester formation
model and attribute ester formation solely to the availability of
higher alcohols (although they were primarily looking at just isoamyl
acetate).

> Another point that both Kunze and the folks at Siebel make is that
> decreased fermentation temperature increases overall ester
production.
> This is the opposite of what most homebrewers believe.  Any
comments?

I read the same thing in Kunze, but I don't believe it for a second.
I'm looking at a stack of about 10 articles right now that all show
that increased fermentation temperature increases overall ester
concentration in the final beer, and they all have data to back it up.
One reason given for this phenomenon is that increased temperature
increases the fluidity of the cell membrane and allows esters to pass
more easily into the medium. But there is little hard evidence to
support this theory--it may just be that the increased levels of
higher alcohols provides more substrate for ester formation. Kunze may
think otherwise but I would ask him to ponder his statement that ester
production is decreased by higher fermentation temperature (page 331)
while sipping a Trappist ale that was fermented at 26C.

> Increased temperature does increase yeast growth, which invariably
> increases the production of higher alcohols.  Kunze talks about the
> importance of the ratio of higher alcohols to esters, saying that
the
> optimum is 1:2.5-3 (this is from Narziss, Brauwelt 45 (1995).  Could
> it be that at higher fermentation temperatures the ratio of higher
> alcohols to esters is skewed, giving the impression of a fruitier
> product when in fact esters levels are actually lower than in a
> cold-fermented beer?  The cold-fermented beer will have fewer higher
> alcohols.

Hmm, I don't know about this. It is true that perception of one
compound is influenced by the level of other compounds present, but I
think in this case Kunze was just wrong about the whole temperature
thing. Trust your nose.

I've really only touched the surface of this issue but I hope I
answered your question.

Cheers,
Mort O'Sullivan
Edinburgh, Scotland



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Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:14:36 -0700
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at ventrassist.com>
Subject: stuff

re Jim Liddil's post...

I have been in private correspondence with Jim about some of this
before...

I have no problems with yeast grown *aerobically* and pitched without
aeration of the wort. The oxygen demand of such yeast has been met
already (ie. the yeast membrane already has high ~1% sterol content).
The Bass patent is along these lines too (but not exactly the same):
aerate the yeast to convert glycogen into sterol, then pitch such yeast
into unaerated wort. Pitching rate is critical with such methods,
however.

Just pitching large amounts of yeast that still has a large oxygen
demand (ie. low ~0.1% sterol content), without aerating the wort is
definitely not the way to go, IMHO, especially in reasonably clear
worts. Yeast at the end of primary fermentation typically has low sterol
levels, and has a high oxygen demand. ie. it requires oxygen (or
fat/sterol supplementation) before it can have sufficient sterol levels
to start reproducing (which is desirable if you want a healthy
fermentation).

It was not clear to me that Tracy was recommending the former over the
latter in BT, and clearly some others were confused too. A pity he no
longer contributes to HBD as it would be good for him to clarify this
point.

I have read the papers Jim refers to. These fermentations were with wort
supplemented with very large amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and
ergosterol, in place of oxygenation. Each subsequent fermentation was
also supplemented. This is along the lines of feremnting with large
amounts of trub (which supplies these naturally). Note I stressed my
worts are roughly filtered and contain low trub levels, which is
desirable for other reasons. Although the authors of the papers indeed
maintain yeast viability over 5 such fermentations, at no stage do they
taste any of the "beer" so produced. Yeast produced over successive
generations (with TWEEN 80/ergosterol supplementation) without oxygen,
maintain viability, but lack mitochondrial development. Yeast
mitochondria may have certain other desirable functions in fermentation
of beer.

I have also experimented with TWEEN80/ergosterol supplemented starters
that Jim mentions. These were interesting, although I've stopped now.
The ales were OK (one was outstanding), but the lagers were terrible! A
typical fermentation lasted about a day or 2, and was very attenuated. I
prefer less radical techniques these days.

*******
re George de Piro and high temps causing less esters???!!!

I think George just likes to stir the HBD brewpot!

Kunze makes the comment but doesn't back it up with any comment or
reference. (yes I have Kunze). I'd be tempted to regard this as a
throwaway line that can be disregarded (even a translation error). I
can't comment on the Siebel folk - surely you asked them why, George,
when they make such controversial claims? Without an explanation the
comment should also be disregarded. There is a wealth of information in
the (non homebrewing) literature that supports the opposite view. Most
things that increase higher alcohols (oxygen excepted) increase the
substrate for ester formation, and correspond highly with increased
ester levels. Our resident HBD ester expert, Mort O'Sullivan should be
able to throw more light on this, if he can drag himself away from his
studies.

Andy.



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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:50:58 -0400
From: "Chuck Hanning" <hanning at voicenet.com>
Subject: Judges needed forBUZZ off

To all Judges,

Judges are needed for the BUZZ-OFF homebrew competition which will be held
on June 27 and 28 at Victory Brewing Co. in Downingtown PA. Last year's
competition was the fourth largest in the US. We are currently also a
qualifying event for the Masters Championship in Amateur Brewing. In
addition to the Competition itself, there will also be a professional
brewers forum on sat afternoon and a brewery loop shuttle on Saturday night
to all the brewpubs in the local area. There will also be a beer dinner on
sunday night sponsored by Victory Brewing co. Judges interested in judging
are asked to please contact Chuck Hanning at hanning+AEA-voicenet.com  or
610-889-0396.

There will also be a BJCP exam offered on Friday night which will make you
eligible to judge if you are not already a BJCP judge. people interested in
taking the exam should contact Dave Houseman at
dhousema+AEA-cccbi.chester.pa.us .

Chuck Hanning
Judge Coordinator




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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:24:49 -0600
From: Richard Cox <rcox at mail.frii.com>
Subject: too long in carboy = no conditioning yeast??

I recently bottled a high-gravity amber ale that (due to scheduling
conflicts) sat in the primary for nearly 2 weeks, and then in the secondary
for another two weeks.  This is the first time in my brewing career that
I've let a beer sit around that long, and I was worried that there might
not be enough yeast left to properly carbonate my brew. Well...

Tonight I did my usual one-week taste test and cracked open a bottle.  Not
flat, but practically.  There's a hint of carbonation, but not enough.
(Very little sediment, too.)

Will it eventually carbonate, but just take more time?  Will I have to open
all the bottles and add dry yeast?  How much should I add if I do this?  Am
I worrying needlessly?

Can this beer be saved?

Sorry if this question has been answered here recently.  This is my first
time reading (and posting to) HBD in a couple of years.  (I stopped reading
it when AOB screwed things up.)

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Richard


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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:29:42 -0500
From: "Jethro Gump" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: Big Brew '98 Stats-Abridged

Big Brew '98 Stats-Abridged
    (From an AHA Press Release.)
    More than 1000 brewers  at  105 sites......more than 1350 gallons of Big
10/20 (14,400 12 oz bottles equivalent,) and a total of 2387 gallons of all
types of beer reported to the AHA (25461 12 ouncers).
    While this is just a short list of stats, I know that there will be a
more comprehensive list to follow when Brian can catch his breath. But from
what we see here, not a bad effort!

Jethro Gump
brewer at ames.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"




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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:47:09 -0600
From: Dan Morley <morleyd at cadvision.com>
Subject: Hop Side shoots

Hi all,

This is the second year for my cascade hop plant and it is already growing
much more vigorously than last year. I pruned it back to 3 shoots on each
side of my rope support. Near the bottom of the plant the side branches are
already about 2-3 feet long and starting to sag to the ground! I am curious
what other people do with the side branches? Do you try and train them up
the rope? or just let them hang out? I would like to hear some ideas. 

Thanks

Dan Morley
Calgary, Alberta, Canada



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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 01:18:05 -0400
From: "E. Darren Ellis" <eellis2 at utk.edu>
Subject: Mail order with free shipping?

I remember hearing on the digest some time ago of a mail order HB shop that
had free shipping for orders of more than $50.  I need to order 350# of
grain to replace my stock that was lost in a flood last week.  Can someone
please send me info/or post on any mail order shops that do this.

grain-less and drying out in Knoxville, literally!

 -Darren Ellis




- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
E. Darren Ellis         http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~dellis/Darren.htm
                        eellis2 at utk.edu
                        darren at utknp3.phys.utk.edu
                        ellis at dirac.physics.jmu.edu
 
University of Tennessee / Dept. of Physics     /       Fax: (423) 974-7843
Physics Bldg.           / Knoxville, TN. 37996 / Telephone: (423) 974-3342
2900 Rennoc Rd.         / Knoxville, TN. 37918 /            (423) 281-9521
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:16:35 +1000
From: Dirk Server <mminsw at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: lager yeast

from George de Piro
>I don't know if Wyeast 3068 is multi-strain, but "delbruekii" is not lager 
yeast (which is S. uvarum, formerly S. carlsbergensis).
If we're being technical, then both terms for lager yeast are now out of 
date. Both ale and lager yeasts are now classified as Saccharomyces 
Cerevisiae.

Dirk.



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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 01:12:28 -0500
From: "Jethro Gump" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

            The Jethro Gump Report
>From: Doug Moyer <Douglas.Moyer at geics.ge.com>
>Is my beer ruined? Two significant parts:
 ..(1) <SNIP>All of this figuring
>meant that I didn't bother to check the S.G. before I transfered to the
>secondary this past Sunday--I went ahead and transferred it onto a
>champagne yeast starter.
    I don't see a problem here.......could you have taken sg readings? or
even submitted it to a lab for analysis? Yeah, but you should be OK......
Wait and see!

>(2) <SNIP>As I was transferring, I took a hydrometer reading and
>saw that my S.G. = 1.012 (O.G. = 1.090), so I doubt I'll see much
>reduction in gravity.
    Nor did the GABF brew.....

>So, IMBR? Should I go ahead and transfer it to a
>keg and try to purge with CO2? How about into a 5 gal. carboy? Any other
>advice? Should I drink it all immediately to avoid oxidation? (Obviously
>this is my first barleywine, and my first intentional aging.)

    Keg, carboy....go ahead...purge any of them with CO2.....but keep light
away from the carboy....and the last thing you want to do is drink it now!!
Let it age!

    This is the adventure of brewing...doing a new brew, or technique, and
learning from it.....I really do hope that you make a beer worth
remembering.....but I know that you will learn more if you don't......and
then try to figure out where you went wrong.... at  least that's the way it's
always worked for me......(and those brews WILL be remembered!!!!)
    But, from what you have written, I don't see a problem here.....

>From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
>Subject: <SNIP>, alcohol tolerance, <SNIP>
>Also between the recent bigbrew discussion and the "high gravity article in
>BT I was remind that "alcohol tolerance" is really and ill defined term and
>that champagne yeast is really no more alcohol tolerant than is ale yeast.
>There is much more to getting complete fermentation than just throwing more
>yeast at it.  The BT author is largely incorrect in stating that there is a
>12% alcohol limit.  This is largely a momily. See above and the literature,
>particularly wrt to Sake'.

    Agreed, if only on the part about that there is more to completion than
throwing more yeast  at  it. I have also learned through trial & error that ale
yeasts preferences for sugar types are quite different from the preferences
of champagne yeasts. I would concur that the difference in a barleywine
fermented with ale yeast only, and those hit with another yeast, including
champagne yeast, may be minimal. But is there is a difference? Yup.......if
only in what I tasted between the 2.....wort after ale ferm, and then after
EC-1118 finish.....
    Even a brewer from the wrong side of the stump, that hits on a good
combination will report that combination.
    Thanks for the references.....!!

    Which leads me to.....distiller's yeast........having never considered
the matter much....just assumed that the makers of Scotch used an ale yeast,
no hops, then distilled and aged the stuff in some manner of wonderful
wood....I have recently been introduced to the 'term'.....distiller's
yeast.....
    Anybody know anything about it.......is it significantly different?
Different  at  all? Characteristics?

Jethro (Gotta Learn More About This Brewing) Gump
brewer at ames.net

"The More I Know About Yeast, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Yeast!"




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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:01:00 -0400
From: oberlbk at NU.COM
Subject: Water Problems


HBDers:
About 3 years ago I moved into a new condo complex.  Ever since then I 
have
encountered some things which have perplexed me.  Recently I posted a 
quick
note about a very husky/astringent flavor in my all grain brews.  
Somebody
sent me a note which mentioned that it might be my brewing water.  This
 had
been bouncing around in my head for quite a while, and now that someone

else mentions it, I would like someone to possibly provide more 
guidance.

The first thing that I should mention is that our condo complex is fed 
from
a well.  It is a well known fact that our water content varies with the

season and the amount of rainfall.

Weird things which have occurred:
1.   Incredible amounts of hop bitterness.  For ESB recipes I use half 
of
the hops found in recipes.
2.   All of my all-grain batches have resulted in a beer which tastes 
like
a nasty husky terrible taste.  All of them have been thrown out.  I 
have
tried using 1/3 of the suggested sparge water and it has not helped.  I

have payed strict attention to mashing and sparging temps.  Mash ~153F
Sparge water 165-168F.  Still no good.
3.   About one of every ten batches of extract with steeped grains 
yields
the same nasty husky terrible taste.  These grains were steeped at 
150-155F
for 15 minutes.  The grains were then removed and the liquid was 
strained
through a funnel/plastic strainer to remove all of the husks and other
debris.  Every batch done in the same manner.  This nasty flavor can be

achieved by steeping as little as 8 oz of crystal malt.

I am confident that it is not a matter of sanitation.  It is a grainy
flavor and not a spoiled flavor.  The flavor has shown up with dry 
yeast,
and liquid yeast of various strains - so it is not a yeast problem.

About a year ago, I took a sample of my water to have it tested.  The 
tests
performed were pretty poor, but these were the results:
Hardness:  53.4 ppm
pH:  6.8
Manganese:  0.2 ppm
Fe:  Trace amounts

To me, this water analysis did not raise any flags.  So, I took to 
annoying
our condo administration which is required to perform various water 
tests
throughout the year.  Below is some of the results they have:
Lead 0.015 ppm
Copper   1.3 ppm
Sulfate  14 ppm
Chloride 68 ppm
Sodium 5 ppm

Again, I didn?t see anything that really concerned me.  One more 
additional
fact:  Our dishwasher and toilets are quite often stained brown.  This 
is
easily removed with citric acid.

The person who sent me a message a week or two ago said that I have a
temporary hardness problem.  As he suggested, I boiled a pot of water. 
 On
the bottom were a bunch of white deposits which looked like fish 
scales.  I
was not sure if this was salt plating out or bicarbonates.  This person

suggested boiling my water and racking off to another container.  He 
also
suggested mixing my water with R/O water.  I would really rather not 
buy
water if I could avoid it.

So, I am now putting this out to the collective.  WHAT IS GOING 
ON?!?!?!?!

I apologize for the ridiculous length and vagueness of this post, but I
 am
pretty much tired of throwing out entire batches of beer.  I want to 
move
on to all grain batches, but since quite a few batches are being thrown

out, I cannot even attempt such a move.

Before you respond to my post, please keep in mind that I know
little/nothing about chemistry and really do not want to have to learn 
it
now.  I really just want to know what to do to make the problem go 
away.
Is boiling and racking my water enough?  Do I have to mix with R/O 
water?
Do I need to add gypsum to the mash?  Do I need to acidify?  HELP!!!!!

As usual, private emails are fine and in this case encouraged.

Thanks in advance,
Brent Oberlin
East Hampton, CT
oberlbk at nu.com




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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:40:17 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: pressure cooking as thermal loading

I've been having some off-line communications with Dr. Geo Fix about
thermal loading and my attempts to pressure cook my wort.  Apparently
the big boy brewers are experimenting with pressure cooking wort to save
energy but are finding detrimental flavors impacts.

I didn't care for my last batch of pressure cooked wort bohemian pilsner
but attributed the problem to my over enthusiastic use of soured mash. 

Question, have any of you entered bier brewed with pressure cooked wort
in contests and how did you fare?

Thanks for the input on or off-line to kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us

jim booth, lansing, mi.......75mi nw of jeff



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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:28:31 EDT
From: Zurekbrau at aol.com
Subject: Help with unmalted wheat

I have a simple mashing question about unmalted wheat.

I did an all grain wheat beer this weekend. I used 10 lbs of pilsen malt,  10
lbs of Belgin wheat and 1 lbs of Cara Pils.  This is for a ten gallon batch.
I mashed at 153 F for three hours.  I keep doing the Iodine test and the
samples keep testing positive for a lot of starch.

  Is this normal when mashing unmalted wheat?
  Should I cook the wheat before I mashed it?
  Will I have to drink this batch fast to avoid probems with starchy beer? 

The sparge was also very slow.  I think that was because the Pilsen malt was
two row and not six row.  That gave me less hask matrial in the grain bed.  My
extraction efficiency was 75% which is good for my system.

Well just want to know some other people's experances with mashing unmalted
wheat.

Rich Zurek
Carpentersville IL USA
Northwest of Chicago


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Date: Wed, 27 May 98 08:24:37 -0400
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Gravity adjustment at bottling/hop isomerization

Greetings,

A coworker who brews and who is not on the list has made a beer that
fermented out more than expected.  It started around 1.070 and now is down
to 1.01x and still going.  He says that it is too alcoholic for the season
and is thinking of cutting it at bottling.  It's a 5 gallon batch and he's
thinking of adding a gallon of boiled and cooled water.  I gave him the
recent BT article on brewing high gravity beers and suggested that his
biggest problem is going to be adjusting for the right hop bitterness
level.  I was wondering if he were to boil some additional hops in his
added water, if sufficient isomerization would be realized in a water-only
boil to make the addition useful.  Alternatively, he could add a small
amount of hop extract, but even there I'm not sure if the extract is
highly soluble in water.  Any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>                  Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 05:51:55 PDT
From: "Steve Blanchard" <steve_blanchard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Spent grain recipe

Check out HBD 2549 for a good recipe for spent grain bread.  Enjoy.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:16:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Re: Butt Lube

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

"Brian Wurst" <brian at mail.netwave.net> wrote...

> Application:  How was your Vaseline(tm) applied?  

Thin layer applied to the ring only, then wiped with a paper towel (same 
method I use with keg lubes)

> Time of contact:  

When I actually had time to brew, I would easily have beers in kegs 
longer than six months, let alone three. Just don't drink that much, I 
guess...

> Storage temperature:  

My apologies. At the time, my basement should have been on the order of 
around 55 to 60'F

> Storage location: 

Corner of the basement. No motors nor flames nearby.

> 
> Again, I do not wish to discount your experience 

Nor would I expect you to. As I stated, I cannot explain why some have 
absolutely no problems, while others seem to go right to sh*t. I found no 
weird scents - not that that indicates whether an off-flavor could have 
resulted had there been beer in there, nor anything else other than the 
ruined seal. I'm at a loss...

Have fun in the street. Traffic apparently ain't as heavy on the road 
you're playing on, but a bus just ran over my kegs ;-)




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Date: Wed, 27 May 98 08:03 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Wet, Soft and Warm, thats how I like em

Hmmmmm, got your attention did I? Read on to find out more about wet, soft 
and warm.  Last Sunday morning Gary Sandler and I headed on up to C&C 
Distributing off of Missouri Flat Road to collect 38 korny kegs for the 
club. Matt from C&C first showed us around his warehouse (about 7 or 8 
trailers with no wheels) and then how to evaluate the kegs for structural 
integrity (bottom not falling off and handles secured) and pressure. Per the 
club's preference we stayed with the standard Pepsi ball-lock style.

We picked through the stacks setting aside those that had no pressure in 
them. Matt stores them pressurized after he cleans and repairs them so when 
its time to pick through them, we can tell if they'll hold pressure 
instantly by just squeaking the pressure relief valve. After a few minutes 
Gary suggested that he was also depressing the poppets inside each of the 
valve stanchions to make sure those were also operational. Sounded like a 
good idea, so I tried it too. Ended up with a face full of water that 
smelled a bit like rootbeer. Gary thought it was pretty funny and suggested 
that I might turn my head a bit to the side on the next one. I did that for 
about 10 more kegs, then forgot and blasted myself again. Just gotta stay on 
your toes when doing this important work.

It took us about an hour to go through the stacks and pull out 38 pretty 
good looking kegs. We eliminated the really ugly and badly dented ones, even 
though they were structurally okay. After stacking them outside in the 
sunlight (can you believe it didn't rain during this work) we re-inspected 
them as we loaded them into Gary's van. We pulled a few more out when we saw 
how rough they looked in the better light. All in all I'd say we ended up 
with the 38 best looking kegs that Matt had on hand.

Matt's a really nice fellow by the way. He's got a small refrigerated 
trailer with license plate "ALETRLR" that holds 12 half barrel kegs and 4 
taps. He'd brought it along hooked up to his Jeep for us to take a look at 
just in case the club might need something like it. Might be interesting to 
consider for the October Homebrewer's Festival in Napa. He's also got Sanke 
kegs for about $65 and some that are ready to make kettles out of for $40 
(with top cut out) which seems like a pretty reasonable price. I'll be 
getting a couple myself soon.

After all that inspection, you'd think we got perfect kegs. Well I brought 4 
of 'em home and unloaded them. A couple hours later I was getting ready to 
soak them in TSP and I noticed one keg had no pressure in it. I figured we 
must have let it all out but just to be sure I repressurized it. Within 
minutes it had no pressure. Whatta bummer! I tried resealing the lid and 
tested it again. Didn't work. I couldn't believe it. Disappointed, I left 
the keg in the basement overnight and told Gary about it. It looked like 
there was a very small dent in the lip of the keg right where the oring was 
supposed to seat.

After thinking about it for a bit, I decided that maybe the thing had just 
dried out a bit. I also remembered that rubber gets softer when its warm. So 
last night I gave the lid with oring a 5 minute soak in very hot tap water. 
Reinserted the now wet, warm and soft oring and lid and repressurized the 
tank. This morning it still had pressure! So, from now on my kegging 
procedure will always include a hot water soak for the oring and lid just 
before pressurizing. Disappointed? Not me. I like my keg lids wet, warm and 
soft.

Charley (happiest under pressure) in N. Cal



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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:24:30 -0700
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Summer Cap-Off '98

It's a Cap-Off, Jack!

Tired of trying to juggle your brewing/bottling/entry form-filling/judging 
schedule around major holidays?  Well hopefully this is the last one!  The 
Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers, from Ceres, California (near Modesto, roughly 
half-way between Oregon and Mexico, and half-way between San Francisco and 
Yosemite) invite you to enter Summer Cap-Off 1998, our AHA-sanctioned 
homebrew competition.

See http://www.jps.net/randye/capoff98.htm for full details, forms, and 
the AHA style guidelines.

Entries will be received between June 13 and June 27, 1998.  Judging will 
be on Sunday, July 12, 1998.

Call Wayne Baker at (209) 538-BREW or email: BarleyLW at aol.com

Judges welcome (Please!).  We added three BJCP judges to our ranks this 
year (a 150% increase), but we'd love to have a few more.  Contact Randy 
Erickson at (209) 526-7491 or randye at mid.org


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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:46:27 -0400
From: "Goll, Christopher M." <cgoll at pica.army.mil>
Subject: Kegging System Sources

Hello to all - 

With Father's Day fast approaching, my first assistant brewer, Austin
Charles, (born Feb 19, 1998!) and my wife are looking for a gift idea.
What better than some kegs, fittings and tap to go with the fridge, tank
and regulator I've already scrounged??  If you have a favorite source,
would you please email this to me?  Website addresses for on-line
catalogs would also be appreciated, as would a source of used 3 gal
kegs.

Thanks,

Chris Goll
Rockaway, NJ
cgoll at pica.army.mil  


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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:45:01 -0700
From: Michael Rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Handbook of brewing

Tidmarsh writes,

>Speaking of _The Handbook of Brewing_, I haven't seen a mention of it 
>here.  It is aimed toward a mega- and microbrewery audience, but it 
>looks interesting.  I only had a few minutes to glance over it while 
>at the library, but it seemed to have some potentially useful 
>information, including a chapter of brewing formulae.  The chapter 
>authors were mostly mega-brewery affiliated, but Bert Grant wrote 
>the chapter on hops, and one of the Siebel faculty wrote another 
>chapter, though I don't remember which.  

	I delieve this book also goes by the name _The Practacal Brewer_
Amazon.com says *out of print* and *out of stock* and **$195.00**
You can down load in PDF format from MBAA.COM (Master Brewers
Association of America)

  Michael Rose   Riverside, CA (happy Jeff)     mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net

P.S. Tidmarsh, I named my newest mead after you. I know people are going
to ask about it, so give us some background. Royalty maybe?


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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:22:44 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Wyeast, OJ Ale?

I thought Wyeast 3068 was the single strain yeast and 3056 was
the dual strain yeast.  I've made some nice Bavarian wheat beers with
3056, but I've also made some "American" wheat beers with that
yeast.  I'll be trying 3068 this summer.
*******
Eric wrote:
>On the down side, I now have to figure out what to do with 7 gallons of OG
>1.075 beer, when I was expecting 7 gallons of 1.050 beer.  Typically with
this
>recipe, I add 12 oz of orange juice concentrate to the secondary for my OJ
>Amber Ale.  Then I saw (finally) in the late issue of BT, an article on
>brewing more homebrew by diluting high gravity homebrew:  Brew it to high
>gravity, then diluting with water at packaging.  Based on this article, I was
>thinking of diluting the OJ concentrate to one gallon with water, then adding
>it to the secondary.
>Other than the intuitively repulsive idea of diluting home brewed beer, does
>this sound kosher?  I mean orthodox?  No wait, I mean zymurgilogically sound?

I thought the repulsive idea was adding the OJ???

Adding water is an easy way to dilute your beer.  If you have 7 gallons at
1.075, you can easily calculate the new OG.
7 (gallons) * 75 (from the gravity) gives you 525 "points".  Adding one 
gallon of water (which has zero "points") gives you 8 gallons.

divide the 525 points by 8 gallons gives you 1.066.  Adding 2 gallons of 
water would give you 1.058.  

That, of course, doesn't include the contribution from the OJ concentrate.
*******
>...
>Best,
>Sam Mize
>- -- 
>Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
>Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:06:46 -0400
>From: Jeff Grey <jgrey at cbg.com>
>Subject: Re: Affordable Dental Plans
>
>
>I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IDIOT WOULD POST SPAM IN THIS NEWSLETTER ! It is
>bad enough that I get this crap in my mailbox everyday.  Can anything be
>done about this ??


Wow.  Sam answered Jeff's question before it was even asked!!!

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:47:26 +0000
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Handbook of brewing

> 	I believe this book also goes by the name _The Practical Brewer_
> Amazon.com says *out of print* and *out of stock* and **$195.00**
> You can down load in PDF format from MBAA.COM (Master Brewers
> Association of America)
> 
>   Michael Rose   Riverside, CA (happy Jeff)     mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net

Wow, $195 is kind of steep (though typical I suppose for something of 
such limited interest).  At least it's available via PDF--might be 
worth downloading.

> 
> P.S. Tidmarsh, I named my newest mead after you. I know people are going
> to ask about it, so give us some background. Royalty maybe?
> 

I'm honored, and "Your Highness" will do ;-) Seriously, though, 
TIdmarsh was my great-grandmother's maiden name, so there's no 
particularly interesting story about it.


Tidmarsh Major, Birmingham, Alabama
tidmarsh at mindspring.com
"Bot we must drynk as we brew,
   And that is bot reson."
    -The Wakefield Master, Second Shepherds' Play


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---