---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: Mr. Beer (true confessions) (Larry Helseth)
  Spent Grain in Bread (Jack Schmidling)
  honey (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  Update on Saflager dry yeast (was: Update on Safale) (Mat Farrington)
  Re: decoctions (Scott Murman)
  Re: Mash/Sparge One Day etc. ("Matthew J. Harper")
  All Grain Help (John Penn)
  My  Aeration Method---Comments please ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Molasses Suppliers? ("Lee, Ken")
  "debunk" = calling someone a liar (Samuel Mize)
  Fullers Summer Ale (Brad McMahon)
  Debunking myths / Splitting the brew day (George_De_Piro)
  Re:  Safale (Danny Breidenbach)
  debunking good sanitation (Michael Rose)
  Iodophor in beer (John Wilkinson)
  hop flavor, tasting ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Does Wyeast 1338 ever stop? ("Hans E. Hansen")
  the AHA nationals BIG mess in the NE (AlannnnT)
  re: mash/sparge one day, boil the next (John_E_Schnupp)


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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:00:35 -0500
From: Larry Helseth <lhelseth at class.org>
Subject: re: Mr. Beer (true confessions)

HBD-
     In HBD#2726, John L asked what to do with his Mr. Beer machine;
Eric F answered in HBD#2727 with the suggestion of using for a "mini
keg".  John L will need something to plug the hole in the lid of the Mr.
Beer container, which is fitted to accept an airlock.  Any suggestions
from the group?  A small, sanitized stopper from the inside?
    Yes,  I confess to having been drawn to the HBD to learn more about
homebrewing after, myself, entering the hobby by way of Mr. Beer.  I
started with their enticing promise that "anyone can do it", but soon
found the taste wanting.  All it took was a trip to my local
microbrewery to convince myself there was more to brewing than just
mixing water, a concentrate, dry yeast and sugar.  I stumbled on Dave
Miller's "Homebrewing Guide" at a local bookstore, and decided, with his
illustrations, that I COULD try something more complicated.  I followed
Dave Miller's suggestion of checking the Yellow Pages for home brewing
suppliers in my area, and located a nearby store.  After my first
"Classic Pale Ale", I poured out the remaining "Mr. Beer" bottles to
make way for beer with flavor!  I'll never go back, but, in the words of
my local home-brew supply house proprietor, "At least Mr. Beer got you
started!"
    I'm impressed with a group of connoisseurs who, rather than slam a
novice for using such primitive equipment, offer constructive
suggestions and encouragement to newcomers!  I look forward to receiving
more instruction in the Art from the collective HBD!  Adios,
                                                    -Larry Helseth

(not clever enough to come up with a funny tag line, just glad I'm
learning how to make good beer!)




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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 22:17:58 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Spent Grain in Bread

I think some folks are missing the point of using spent grain in
bread.  You can not replace the flour with the spent grain because
there is nothing left that remotely resembles flour.

What is left however, is roughage and lots of flavor.  So if you
add a cup or two of spent grain to the cheapest white flour you can
find, you will make bread that will have the taste and texture of
expensive, whole grain.

The best way to process the spent grain is to dry it and run it
through a...  gag... Corona to make a medium/course grist out of
it.  You can use it wet, right out of the kettle but be prepaired
to spend a lot of time picking your teeth.

There is an Application Note on our web page on the subject.

js
- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........  http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......  http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:51:05 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: honey

beelovers,

As a supplement for the sugar- inversion thread:
Cold spin-dried honey contains enzymes which can cause honey go sugary.
Commercial honey has almost allways been heated so the enzymes are
destroyed.

Ingredients of honey are:
invertsugar 70-80 % (approx. 34.7 % glucose)
		fructose (laevulose) 39.2 %
		saccharose up to 10 %
		dextrine up to 10 %
		protein, volatile aromatics, formic acic, ashes and water

Greetings from Holland,  Hans Aikema



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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 16:04:19 +0930
From: Mat Farrington <mat at holon.net>
Subject: Update on Saflager dry yeast (was: Update on Safale)

Earlier I wrote:
>
> I have also used the Saflager S-23 yeast on a batch which is currently in
> the primary.  The sachet says genuine lager yeast. The ferment is giving
> off sulphur smells and bubbling happily at 14C, so it certainly is
> behaving like one.

[ Extra pale LME, bittering Ringwood, late Saaz.  Still chugging along
  nicely at 14C.  1052 down to 1014 after 9 days.  Now bubbling once
  every 2 minutes and starting to clear down. ]

Tasting like one too.  :-)

I'm un-clear on what is sufficient for lagering.  Must there be an
extended period of cold storage under airlock, or can it be under seal? 
Also, how cold is "cold"?

I will move the cleared beer into bottles and then store these at 13C
for a few weeks.  If lagering means "secondary for two months at 5C"
say, then how different are my 13C bottles going to taste at two months?

Feedback appreciated,

Mat F.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:10:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: decoctions

 
OK, I'll stick my neck out again...  

> In my Dunkel, I only used .5# of 150L Crystal, but that flavor
> (combined with 4 oz of Chocolate) overwhelmed the beer,
> IMO. Decoction would darken the beer without having to use so much
> dark malt and would make it maltier. A perfect fit, or so it would
> seem.

Decoctions are just plain fun.  That they can make good beer is an
added bonus.  People will probably debate their usefulness until
instant beer crystals are invented, and beyond.   

> I planned on trying a single Decoction, employing a rest in the
> 131-135F range and using a decoction to bring it up to 156-158F. My
> concerns are these:
>
> 1) How long do you decoctors (is that a word?) rest the decoction at
> saccrification temperature before boiling? Most things I've read say
> "a short time."

Most of your enzymes are left in the mash tun after you pull the thick
decoction.  Someone here on the HBD used the phrase "enzyme pool" when
referring what's left after pulling the decoction and I think that's
an excellant phrase.  I rest for 15 or 20 minutes, but I don't even
know if that does much.  One thing I do advise is adding about 1
qt. of water to the decoction before turning on the gas.  2 gal. of
sugary grain tends to burn and stick like nothing else.  The water
will help you avoid a 1/2 inch crust of burnt grain on the bottom of
the pot.  And stir.  And stir.  And stir.

> 2) Using the single decoction mentioned above, and assuming that I
> rest the decoction at sacc. temps for 15 mins and then boil for 15
> mins, that means that the main mash will be at 135ish for 45 minutes
> (figuring a 15 minute initial rest). Isn't this way too long?

If you're not using a significant amount of wheat, the I'd say you
probably want to re-think your mash step.  There are many games you
can play, depending on the style you're brewing.  If you want to rest
at 135F for extended periods, then I would suggest parking at 160F for
your sacc. rest.  Dextrins can give good head just as proteins do
(better?).

You could also try decocting 105 -> sacc. temp., or 105 -protein
rest -> add boiling water to first sacc. rest, etc.   Like I said,
there are many games you can play.  Too much time within the 115-135
range without a large amount of medium and large molecular weight
proteins is probably going to lead to problems though.  Remember, your
enzymes are sitting in that pool doing there work, not in the useless
junk you're boiling (scorching) the crap out of.

Protein rests can be useful, but as I'm sure George De Piro will point
out, they're not to be trifled with.

> 3) Could I improve color and maltiness sufficiently enough by just
> draining and boiling the first runnings and using those to bring the
> mash up to mash-out temperatures (and not doing a grain decoction at
> all)?

Personally, and I've only tried it once, but I don't think boiling the
thin late decoction adds much.  It seems much like adding 15 minutes
to your kettle boil.  I'd advise sticking to the grain boiling.

SM





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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:45:50 -0400
From: "Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com>
Subject: Re: Mash/Sparge One Day etc.

Ira Plotinsky says:

>Jack Schmidling writes about letting his wort sit until it cools, not
>cooling it with a wort chiller.  This was in response to Randy Ricchi
>writing about yet another unorthodox method in brewing.
>
>As I thanked Randy, I now would like to thank Jack.  I don't even own
>a wort chiller and have never artifically cooled my wort.  And like
>Jack, no problemo.  It gets me to thinking that what this list could
>use is a thread for debunking long held beliefs about brewing that
>have no basis in practice.  I'm not suggesting we stop paying  >attention
to
>sanitation, but I sure think a good area for debunking would be in
>the field of all that attention to sterilization.  I have had any
>number of emergencies occur in brewing where I simply had to either
>break sanitation practice or throw out 5 gallons of beer.  I have
>always opted for the former and I have yet to lose a batch to
>infection.  I know it can happen and probably will sometime, but is
>it worth the obsessive-compulsive rituals we are all going through?


I've read this several times, taken a break and re-read it again
and I still find the content a bit inflammatory.  'No basis in
practice'; Them's fightin' words!  <grin>

My actual participation in the Digest has been hot & cold over
the last 6+ years, but I *do* consider and weigh all the info
it brings to me each day.  I believe that, for the most part, actions
taken by the majority are reasonable and worth while, certainly not
'obsessive-compulsive rituals' towards sanitation or anything else.

The composition of wort has been determined and proven scientifically,
as has what can *happen* to wort (and the resulting beer) if it
is mis-handled or improperly treated.  This includes the wonderful
Botulism threads, skunking, 'floaters', off-tastes (that nice generic
category) and poor head retention.

As with anything else in life no two people will treat any one thing
the same way, so we all have our own little processes, beliefs and
idiosyncrasies.  My personal opinion regarding leaving the wort in
the kettle overnight is a mistake, akin to leaving any other food
out in the pot overnight.  It's simply something I don't do, partly
for fear of infection, but also do to the strong likelihood that
changes in flavor will occur (for good or bad, I don't care cause
it most likely won't be something I can repeat with any level of
accuracy).

I do chill my beer right after brewing.  There are several tried and
true reasons based in practice:

1. My time to brew is limited
   The faster I can complete the entire  process, the better
   While I love to brew, it's but one of several hobbies and
   responsibilities I carry each day.

2. Better sense of control.
   I can repeat my steps with a very good level of accuracy
   every time I brew.  Letting it cool overnight is very dependant
   upon ambient temperature and other environment considerations;
   most of which I have no control over.  If I can't control the
   process, I can't reliably repeat it.

3. Faster time to pitch/ferment
   Like it or not, it has been proven scientifically that the
   best approach to ward off infection is to keep the time from
   the boil to active fermentation to as small a degree as possible.

4. Better hot/cold break, less time in contact with hop-gak & troob
   Again, it's a control factor.  Further, I believe it has an
   impact on the flavor profile for my brews.

While by day I'm a software engineer and manager, by degree and
desire I'm a scientist at heart.  Controlling all the variables
as much as possible is important to me.  If I do have 'an emergency'
while brewing I will cut corners, but I also log what occurred so
I can do my best to prevent it in the future.

If I recall correctly, Jack first coined the phrase 'momily', which
when I first read it several years ago made me laugh *and* made me
think.  Both of which are good things!   I do have a problem with
assertions that things are bad 'because most people do it that way'
though.  Questioning existing practice is paramount to steps forward
everywhere, but it should be done in such a way as to try an understand
existing practice and its rationale.  Just telling someone they are
being obsessive, compulsive or wasting their time is a good way
to make sure they won't give you the time of day, much less
listen to you or give what you have to say any credence.

If there's solid data to debunk a long held 'myth' here on the
Digest, please do post it.  There is a *wealth* of experience and
information available here for reasonable educated discussion.


My apologies to anyone who feels I've wasted bandwidth or am being
to harsh.  Part of my job is manager of a Quality Assurance team,
and battling the "Because we've always done it that way" mind set
is something I do on a daily basis. As a result perhaps I'm a little
over-sensitive to such situtations. :-)


 -Matth



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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:42:28 -0400
From: John Penn <john_penn at spacemail.jhuapl.edu>
Subject: All Grain Help

                       Subject:                               Time:8:56 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          All Grain Help                         Date:6/2/98

What me worry?
   Got a 5 gallon Rubbermaid cooler from Walmart web page, couldn't find it
locally at Home Depot or Walmart.  Also had trouble with the bulkhead feed
through and I didn't want to drill the cooler.  Checked out the local hardware
store and Hechinger home store and found an extra Gott Cooler spigot at the
hardware store in Clarksville, MD.  For now I bought the extra spigot, drilled
out the push mechanism and use it merely as a feed through with clear tubing
on the inside and outside.  The inside piece of tubing is short and feeds into
a 1/2" copper manifold.  I was afraid my drill holes were too big (5/32"?) but
no stuck sparge on my first attempt.  I may improve the feedthrough and I plan
to make the manifold look more like the one on Ken Schwartz' web page.  For
now I have a rectangle based on Ken's measurements (thanks for the web page
Ken).  I also need a means to control the flow.   I thought I could use
gravity but that merely controlled the flow from fast to very fast.  So, I
plan to use a hose clamp next time to control the flow until I find and adapt
some kind of ball valve.  Anyway, to the recipe and questions.
Red Knight Ale (4 gallons)
1/2 # chocolate malt
1/2 # 40L crystal
1/2 # torrified wheat
5# 2 row amer. malt
1# English Pale malt
1# honey 
8 HBUs bittering hops (N.B. I think 60 min boil)
1oz Cascade (finish)
1qt starter of 1728 Wyeast Scottish Ale

   I had planned on about 1.5qts/# of malt but I started around 135-140F at 1
qt/# and added hot water.  I added more boiling water than I expected and
overshot my temp so that it seemed that I had more water than I wanted but I'm
not sure how much volume the grains should take up so I don't know how close I
was.

Ques:  How much volume does the grain occupy per lb.?
    The temp went to 158F using my floating thermometer--haven't calibrated it
but I hope its close.  Only dropped about 3F in an hour!  I also did not
measure the pH, I'm hoping that my water is pretty neutral in Eldersburg, MD
and I use a charcoal filter to remove chlorine.  Let it all sit for an hour
and sparged with 4-5 qts. of hot water.  Less than I had intended and I got
maybe ~3.2 gallons of runnoff.  My sparge was a little fast and I had trouble
in getting ahead of the sparge water such that I forced some bubbles in my
runoff tube several times (hopefully not enough to worry about HSA but
something I need to try and improve on next time).  I recirculated the first
couple of cups of runoff but realized the "clear runoff rule" is hard to
follow when you make a dark beer on your first attempt (DUH?).  Proceeded to
boil, etc and I wasn't that careful about my measurements but it appeared that
I got about 150pts total out of the grains for about 20 ppg or so.  With the
honey, I'm expecting something like 4 gallons at 1.047-1.050 OG for an average
strength beer with about 35 IBUs or so.  

Ques:  What should I do next time to improve my efficiency?
    I realize that I need to control the sparge better.  Crush was by homebrew
store and looks reasonable.  I overshot my temp so I guess a little lower like
153F might improve the efficiency.  Looking for easy ideas first, don't want
to get too complicated yet.
   I didn't get too much trub so the malts must be farely modified.  My one
concern is a layer of large bubbles and kind of milky looking film across the
fermenter.  I hope its not mold but I plan to taste/smell it tonight when I
bottle it.  I've never used torrified wheat, homebrew store owner recommended
it in place of malted wheat for head retention, so I'm hoping the film is just
something peculiar to torrified wheat plus I'm fairly new to all grain and I'm
not sure what to expect.

Ques:  Any ideas on the film?  Not worried yet but wondering.
Ques:  Any advice on improving my methods, etc?
   TIA
John Penn
Eldersburg, MD



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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:47:17 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: My  Aeration Method---Comments please

In a previous HBD, Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>

said:


>2. Aerate the living whatsis out of it when you do so.

>Use an oxygen stone if you've got one.  The next most effective method
>seems to be pouring between two food-grade 5-gallon pails.  I recommend
>this as fast, easy and effective, even if you will then funnel it into a
>carboy.  Least suggested: put wort into a 5-gallon pail, submerge your
>head, blow bubbles.

I am starting to get concerned with the aeration method I have been using. 
Since I have been getting some flavors I don't like, and wide variations in
head retention etc., I am reviewing all my methods.  I am looking for
advice/comments on the following aeration method:

	Cool wort in brewpot to desired temp.

	Place brewpot on counter.

	Place fermenter on floor.

	Siphon from brewpot to fermenter holding the output end of the siphon 	as
high as possible.  (I use 5/8 in. ID plastic tubing to get a high 	flow
rate and lots of splash.)

	Top off the fermenter using the sprayer hose of the kitchen sink.  (I 
adjust the temp as needed.)

[end of procedure]

When I do this, I get a very large "head" of foam in the fermenter.  Maybe
3 or 4 inches thick.  Subsequent fermentation seems to go well.

My main concern is, recently I have seen comments that the "head" I am
creating now is "using up" components needed for the head in the finished
product.  Is this true?  

Any other potential faults with this method?

Thanks.

Pete Calinski

PCalinski at iname.com


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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:10:22 -0600
From: "Lee, Ken" <KLee at resdata.com>
Subject: Molasses Suppliers?

My kids have been asking for about a year now for me to make up a batch
of rootbeer.  I found a scratch recipe in one of the papazian (sp?)
books.  Even with the unhealthy ingredients, it smells incredible.  The
one item I can't seem to find at a reasonable price is molasses.  The
recipe calls for three (3) quarts.  Does anyone know where to buy
molasses in that quantity at a reasonable price?

Thanks (Thanks from the kids too!)

Ken Lee
klee at resdata.com



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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:58:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: "debunk" = calling someone a liar

Greetings to all.

A couple of people have recently commented on "debunking" concerns about
overnight cooling of wort.

Using that term, you're calling people liars.  Please stop.

It isn't "bunk," it just isn't 100% certain that you will get DMS buildup,
hot-side aeration, or an infection.

If you don't get problems, that's good for you -- your system, your
methods.  It would be worthwhile to compare notes and see what you are
doing or not doing, compared to people who HAVE had these problems.

We try to get new brewers to use the surest ways for the first few times.
I suppose this sometimes gets too zealous.  I agree we don't want to "scare
away" new brewers with a bunch of useless work.  But I can't imagine what
would scare people away faster than brewing a batch and having it taste
like garbage.

It may only happen occasionally, but for many newbies, a bad first or
second batch would be enough.

They should at least be aware that they MIGHT get problems if they cool
overnight, and be aware of what OTHER steps they can take to reduce the
risk, if they need to do so.

Results are ALWAYS variable.  For instance, many good brews have added
sugars of various kinds.  Yet the "Mr. Beer" kits come out cidery and thin
because of the sugar, and they convince people that home-brewed beer is
bad.  How many new comrades have we lost to Mr. Beer?

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 00:30:37 +1100
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Fullers Summer Ale

> On a more important note, has anyone tasted Fuller's Summer Ale? [I think
> that's the complete name] Perhaps someone with some info can explain why this
> beer has the most overpowering butterscotch flavor ever encountered in a beer.
> The aroma and flavor are so strongly butterscotch that I thought it was
> intentional, and I reread the label to see if butterscotch flavor was a listed
> ingredient. 
> Any ideas?

I had this beer in Southampton and it was a pleasant pale ale, and 
I certainly don't remember any butterscotch notes..

- --
Brad McMahon        Adelaide, South Australia         
brad at sa.apana.org.au   
PGP



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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:10:06 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Debunking myths / Splitting the brew day

     Hi all,
     
     Ira writes:
     
     "As I thanked Randy, I now would like to thank Jack.  I don't even own 
     a wort chiller and have never artifically (sic) cooled my wort.  And 
     like Jack, no problemo.  It gets me to thinking that what this list 
     could use is a thread for debunking long held beliefs about brewing 
     that have no basis in practice.  I'm not suggesting we stop paying  
     attention to sanitation, but I sure think a good area for debunking 
     would be in the field of all that attention to sterilization."
     
     Back to me:
     
     Well, some folks have finally figured it out.  You don't need to cool 
     your wort quickly, nor do you need to pitch a lot of yeast and aerate 
     the wort.  Heck, if you want your beer to be ready in 3 days just 
     ferment it at 87F (32C).  All that stuff I've been writing for the 
     past few years has been a ruse to confuse people so they would give up 
     brewing.  This has given me less competition at contests.
     
     Forgive the sarcasm, but to think that you can "debunk" the learning 
     of THOUSANDS of years of brewing is pretty arrogant.  Yes, commercial 
     brewers just LOVE to waste money by doing things like force-cooling 
     their wort and buying railcar loads of cleaning chemicals.  It keeps 
     people employed throughout several industries.  That in turn helps the 
     US economy.  They're such patriots!
     
     The reasons for rapid cooling of wort and most of the other stuff 
     discussed here are well known in the scientific literature.  Sure, you 
     may make PASSABLE beer if you are cutting corners, but the more 
     corners you cut the worse your beer will be.
     
     If you are happy with your beer, great.  It is important to at least 
     know how to do things the correct way, though.  Beginners reading this 
     digest should know that they can improve their beers with techniques 
     Ira and Jack would like to regard as "myths."
     
     It is also important to note that what one person considers to be good 
     beer, another may not.  Beer evaluation takes practice and training.  
     Unless you know and respect the person who is describing how a beer 
     tastes, take their opinion with a HUGE grain of salt (that goes for 
     you folks reading my perceptions of beer; most of you wouldn't know me 
     if you tripped over me).
     
     If you want to investigate myths, at least talk about slightly 
     controversial topics like "no sparge brewing vs. decoction," or "the 
     necessity of protein rests with modern malts." Rapid wort cooling and 
     sanitation are well established as necessary to making the best 
     quality beer.
     -----------------------------------------
     A quick note on the idea of splitting the brew day by mashing and 
     sparging on day one and boiling, etc. on day two:
     
     I've tried this courageous technique a bunch of times, and have posted 
     to the HBD about it (search the archives; sometime last year).  In 
     short:  bring the wort to 170F (77C) or higher to ensure that it won't 
     sour overnight (unless you want it to sour).  I don't recommend 
     putting hops in it.  When you wake up the next morning, there will be 
     an amazing amount of hot break at the bottom of the kettle, and the 
     wort will reek of DMS.  This is OK, though, because now you are going 
     to boil it (which will drive off the DMS.)
     
     The only problem I have noticed with this method is that light colored 
     beers seem to come out a bit darker than my goal.  I have never done a 
     side-by-side experiment, though, so maybe it was actually a recipe 
     problem (any others want to chime in?)
     
     If this darkening is real, it has 2 possible causes:  oxidation of the 
     hot wort and/or keeping the wort hot for that long.  15 gallons of 
     liquid in a covered stainless kettle takes quite some time to cool 
     down.  If I heat the wort to 200F (93C), it is usually at about 140F 
     (60C) the next morning. (NOTE:  another good reason to use a wort 
     chiller.  It saves time.)
     
     The other problem I could envision with this method is that the hot 
     break may actually redissolve into the wort during the boil.  Don't 
     know if this is the case, though.  You could always take the wort off 
     the break before boiling.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 12:37:57 -0400
From: Danny Breidenbach <dbreidenbach at nctm.org>
Subject: Re:  Safale

OK -- Paul and Mat are raving about the stuff.  Is it widely available
in the States?  If not --- where can I look if I want to give it a try?

Thanks,
- --Danny


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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 12:41:48 -0700
From: Michael Rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: debunking good sanitation

Ira Plotinsky writes,
>  It gets me to thinking that what this list could 
> use is a thread for debunking long held beliefs about brewing that 
> have no basis in practice.  I'm not suggesting we stop paying  attention to 
> sanitation, but I sure think a good area for debunking would be in 
> the field of all that attention to sterilization.  I have had any 
> number of emergencies occur in brewing where I simply had to either 
> break sanitation practice or throw out 5 gallons of beer.  I have 
> always opted for the former and I have yet to lose a batch to 
> infection.  I know it can happen and probably will sometime, but is 
> it worth the obsessive-compulsive rituals we are all going through?

	Depth of sanition practice and *open fermentaton* in *my opinion* are
both dependent on the time period for the beer to be consumed and the
storage of the beer. If a brewer crash chills on the 7th or 8th day and
plans on drinking the beer within a month, then a cat coughing up hair
balls into the wort isn't going to hurt it. But, if a brewer has a long
secondary and has to keep the bottles warm to condition it and won't be
drinking it for several months, then he better be good with his
sanitation practice.

Sorry for any confusion about mixing up _Practical Brewer_  and  _The
Handbook of Brewing Science_ They are two completely different books.
Heres the page for Practical Brewer http://www.mbaa.com/education.html
It's the download page so you don't have to run all around the website.

Note that you are downloading scaned, not text pages. Download and
printing times are long and print quality is poor.

Michael Rose  Riverside, CA     mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net


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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 14:52:25 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Iodophor in beer

A friend had some Iodophor solution sucked back up a blowoff hose into a
fermenting beer and is afraid of poisoning himself.  I think that if there was
enough Iodophor to poison him it would also kill the yeast, stopping the
fermentation.  My opinion is that if the beer ferments out it will be safe to
drink, albeit with the possibility of off flavor.  Am I right or is there any
danger?  At what concentration is Iodophor dangerous to humans?

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 13:10:05 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: hop flavor, tasting

Chas Peterson writes:
>While not scientific, my brewing
>logs do reveal that: 
>
>- First Wort Hopping (FWH) contributes additional flavor, but not much
>aroma to the finished beer
>- Steeping hops post boil also contributes substantial flavor
>characteristics to the beer (maybe even more flavor than aroma after
>fermentation)

Makes sense to me.  I thought the  point of FWH was hop flavor,
not aroma.  You achieved the hop flavor part.  Dry hopping is the
best way to get hop aroma.  The only further question is how much
bitterness does FWH give you, relative to your standard 
bittering hop additions?

********
Samuel Mize wrote:
>> From: Robert Parker <parker at parker.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>I'd like to gather tasting notes on a relatively brief (5-10) list
>> of beers from those among you that excel in beer evaluation.
>
>Your problem here is that shipping can have a tremendous impact on
>flavors.  For example, I'm told that Corona is a good example of its style
>at the brewery, but by the time it hits the USA it's gotten so
>light-skunked that places stick lime wedges in the bottle necks when they
>serve them.  Heat and time take a big toll too.  And, these erratic flaws
>are some of the flavors that you want to learn to identify, for judging.

Also, remember that the sensitivity of different people for different
flavors varies quite a lot.  Add that to the variability in beers, as Samuel
mentioned, and what have you got?

A better bet is to get together with a local homebrew club or local
judges and taste with them.  

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 17:36:27 -0700
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: Does Wyeast 1338 ever stop?

Hello all.

About 12 days ago I make an Altbier (O.G. 1.048) using #1338.
It still has about 1" of foam, and is making CO2.  Will be old(er)
and gray before the primary is done?  Anybody else seen this?

Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com


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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:29:05 EDT
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: the AHA nationals BIG mess in the NE

Not a knock on anyone at the AHA, but if your interested in the AHA Nationals
First Round results from Lowell Mass., you may have a long wait.

Here's what happened;
Over 550 entries were received. The top number of judges present at one time
was 14. About 350 of the beers were judged. More than 200 remain unjudged.
The AHA is scrambling to find a suitable place to hold the remainder of the
competition judging.

Here are The Good Guys;
Brian Rezac from the AHA, who did ALL the work collating 550 entries. [wew]
Mill City Brewing who hosted and was extra generous.
Some unnamed hero with a large copier.
The judges who came, especially the out of towners.
The sole judge from the Boston Wort Processors.

The bad guys;
[I gonna get in trouble here] The Boston Wort Processors who sent a reported
100-plus entries but only one judge to the competition. Reports from numerous
sources say that the Boston based homebrew club, which has scores of judges in
its ranks, holds a grudge against the AHA, and advised its members at the
general meeting,  NOT to judge for the AHA event.
Please, if this info can be challenged, please do so here in this forum.

The AHA must bear the ultimate responsibilty for leaving the competition in
the hands of the 'locals' with little or no oversight. They choose poorly and
all the egg will be on their faces. 
The Boston Wort Processors must see that their actions, while somewhat
injurious to the AHA, really hurt the hobby and the individual brewers who
make up the community of homebrewers. Petty feuds with the AHA shouldn't stand
in the way of  having a good quality, fun competition.
Next year, a new group, headed by BJCP judge John Nagle, is hoping to take
over the reponsibility. If you live in the Northeast, now is the time to think
about how you can help. I know I am.

The postscript;
Your scoresheets are NOT in the mail.

Best Brewing,
Alan Talman


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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:54:23 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: mash/sparge one day, boil the next

>Now that I'm done ranting, I noticed that Danie asks about the long
contact
>with copper.  I always had mine in stainless.  Anyone out there with a
>comment on long copper contact?

What about aluminum?

Here's an idea.  Get a heavy duty (thick) plastic bag and line your boil
pot.
When you finish collecting the wort it won't be sitting around in copper or
aluminum overnight.  In the morning you simply pull the bag out of the pot
and pretso :-)

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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