---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  REMINDER:  Summer Cap-Off '98 ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Attitudes (bob farrell)
  Wyeast 1968, Special London (Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK)
  Good brew doggie, unstuck ferment, AHA/NHC bashing ("Michel J. Brown")
  Colour (Al Korzonas)
  Head retention (Al Korzonas)
  Attitude (Al Korzonas)
  BJCP exam (Al Korzonas)
  RE Trip to England ("Bill Jackson")
  AHA NHC ("Brian Rezac")
  Re:Attitudes (irajay)
  RE: Fermentation chiller idea (Darren Scourfield)
  Re: Blueberry vs. Raspberry (Tom Alaerts)
  Re: clone recipes (Tom Alaerts)
  Brewing On The Open Sea ("Keith & JoAnn Zimmerman")
  Strange Mash Tuns  :  ) ("S. Wesley")
  Fermentation Chiller Idea (Ken Schwartz)
  Jack's PU, my PU, and just plain P.U. ("Dr. Pivo")
  Sour notes in beer ("David M. Campbell")
  Dehumidifier (fridge)
  Stirring Primer (EFOUCH)
  Mashing equipment (Bill Giffin)
  Sour grape flavors (Samuel Mize)
  Re: Fermenter temp control ("Jim Busch")
  Big 'ol food warmer (mash tun) (Mike Spinelli)
  Re: stuck fermentation (Hutch)
  re: re: Alternate Bottle Filling Technique - Vacuum ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Rye Pale Ale Recipe (Charley Burns)
  RE: Fermentation chiller idea (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Why cani sugar in Blegian brews? (Mike Spinelli)
  cleaning flux off of copper pipe (Wade Hutchison)


BUZZ's Buzz-Off competition is June 27-28. Information is available at
www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff or via R. Mattie at
rpmattie at voicenet.com. 


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:20:01 -0700
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: REMINDER:  Summer Cap-Off '98

It's a Cap-Off, Jack!

REMINDER:  The Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers, Ceres, California  invite you to 
enter Summer Cap-Off 1998, our AHA-sanctioned homebrew competition.

See http://www.jps.net/randye/capoff98.htm for full details, forms, and 
the AHA style guidelines.

Now accepting entries until  June 27, 1998.  Judging will be on Sunday, 
July 12, 1998 at 9:00 a.m.  Call Wayne Baker at (209) 538-BREW or  
BarleyLW at aol.com

Judges welcome.  Contact Randy Erickson at (209) 526-7491 or randye at mid.org



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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:15:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: bob farrell <bfarrell at windermere.com>
Subject: Attitudes

This lurker is grateful to those individuals who frequently respond to
questions by replying directly through HBD.   You've helped me increase my
knowledge of brewing techniques and improve the quality of my beer.  Thanks
for making this hobby more enjoyable for me.

Bob Farrell
Portland, OR



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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:29:37 -0400
From: Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK at ln.utk.edu
Subject: Wyeast 1968, Special London


I've brewed approx. 30 batches of all-grain beer over the last year, and
had two become, what is in my opinion, infected.  Both of these were
attempts at ESB using Wyeast 1968, Special London. Now, this could just be
an coincidence, but I'm wondering if anyone else has had this kind of
experience.  The infection makes the the beer appear cloudy in the
secondary with sluggish fermentation.  Flavors are metallic and sour/lactic
 - similar to a young plambic exposed to untreated steel.  Blech!  This is
really annoying because now I've got 10 gallons of the stuff. Any advise,
similar experiences, etc?
Jeff York
Knoxville, TN




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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:40:05 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: Good brew doggie, unstuck ferment, AHA/NHC bashing

Got a new puppy the other day -- a Jack Russell Terrier. While I was
brewing, the little guy lapped up some boiled over wort on my back porch.
He seemed to like it, and it caused no ill effects, other than to clean up
my deck a little. On a related note, he also found my slug bait saucer (Bud
Light), and sniffed it, growled at it, then turned around and peed on it!
Maybe he's a critic, or just doesn't like "lite" beers. Either way the
slugs are gone, and I have a nice brew dog.

Thanks to AlK, JeffR, and all the numerous others (too numerous to count --
TNTC), my Belgian Strong Ale (Dominator) is back on track. Apparently, with
the coming of Spring, the temperature changes allowed me to turn off the
gas heat and it dropped from 72 to 68. Not too bad for me, but for the
Wyeast 'lil wee beasties, it may have made a difference. But at any rate, I
upped the temperature to 72, used 2 oz of Amylase, 2 pkgs. of Danstar
Nottingham yeast, and 4 oz of yeast energizer. This got things rolling
again, and the ferment is slow but steady, and getting down to 1.040 as I
type (I'm hoping for at least 75% AA and an FG of 1.038).

Will all the contestants in the latest diatribe please go to a neutral
corner for a 10 count time out? Having read all the personal attacks,
defenses, accusations, and assertions, all I can say is if you don't like
what the AHA/NHC does, then *DO* something about it! Cancel your
membership, send snail mail to the director (they're required to keep
regular mail for 5 years since they are a nonprofit corporation), organize
the other dissenters. I was raised to take complaints to the source, and if
that doesn't work, then go to a mutually respected authority (incorporation
department of the local secretary of state will do), if that fails, *then*
go to the public venue and vent your spleen publicly for open discourse.
'Nuff said?  Good, then let's get on with beer brewing, tasting, and
judging...btw, what about an updated sensorineural map of the tongue?
Ttyal, God Bless, and ILBCNU!

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
		    2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
    "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
			       L. Pasteur


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:57:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Colour

AJ writes:
>Color relationships (H.B.S &Y, p 811):
> 
>EBC = 2.65*SRM - 1.2
> 
>SRM = 0.375*EBC + 0.46

H.B.S.&Y. is a little dated on this point.  Since about 1987
the formula has been:

EBC=1.97*SRM.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:28:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Head retention

Dave quotes Charlie Bamforth:
>"Second, any foaming during the
>process [fermentation] reduces the amount of material that will survive to
>support the head on the finished beer in the glass. <snip>"

I don't disagree with this, but it is important to keep everything 
in perspective.  In my blowoff-vs.-nonblowoff experiment that was
written up in Brewing Techniques, I had the lab (Siebel) test for
protein.  The amount of protein that was lost was a very small
percentage and the resulting beers had no difference in head retention
as judged by a number of BJCP judges (some National and Master).
Around one quart of beer was lost to blowoff (about 5%) so these
were not wimpy fermentations.

Now, since then, there has been mention of the fact that whether
the kraeusen falls back in or is removed from the fermenter may
not make a big difference in protein content or head retention, there
may be a big loss simply from the foaming itself.  While this may
be true, ALL the test beers had excellent, long-lasting heads, including
the 1.048 OG American Pale Ale.

So, while it may be true that foaming earlier in the brewing process
reduces head retention potential, I don't think there is a big concern
for our all-malt beers, which seem to have more than enough head
retention potential, as long as we do everything else right (watch
sanitation, don't use extended 122F protein rests, don't use excessive
amounts of refined sugar, etc.).

***
Getting back to Scott's referencing The Practial Brewer regarding the role of
dextrins in head retention, I did look up that point and indeed it is
mentioned.  In my edition, it didn't say alpha-glucans, but rather simply
carbohydrates.  I also checked several other books and found in Malting
and Brewing Science (p.269): "...glycoproteins may act as foam stabilizers"
and it referenced Anderson, F.B. (1966) J. Inst. Brewing, 72, 384 for this
concept.  (Glycoproteins are made from carboydrates and proteins.)  In
neither of my two sources (unlike Scott's) are dextrins named specifically,
but it would not be unreasonable to presume they were.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:54:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Attitude

Paul writes:
>Cheers!  My sentiments exactly.  What particularly annoys me is the
>attitude of a few individuals who think it is their sole responsibility in life
>to respond to every question posted in the HDB.  Like it is their job or
>something.  I don't know how many times I've have read a post that
>begins like this: 
> 
>"Sorry I haven't been able to get to all of your posts lately.  I've been on
>vacation (busy at work, in the hospital, whatever).  I will try to answer all
>of the posts over the next few days, so please be patient........"
> 
>Like anyone gives a rats *ss.  Anyway, when I challenge these people
>(and you know who they are), I usually get a very noble response that
>goes something like this:
> 
>"I care about home brewing and I am just trying to help further the hobby.
<snip>

Clearly I'm one of "these people" that Paul refers to and I have probably
written to him one of those "something like this" "noble" responses.

I have never made brewing more difficult than it has to be (as Paul
implies that "people" like me do).  Rarely do I say "you must" or
"it is required," but rather I  warn "if you are having trouble with..."
or "if you do this, you should be careful not to..."

The fact of the matter is that while I was off in the hospital, 20 or
30 questions went unanswered.  If you would have gotten off your high
horse and answered a few questions, perhaps I would not have had to.
I don't feel that answering HBD quesions is my sole responsibility in
life, but rather it is *all* our responsibility as a homebrewing
community.  It's just that I take that responsibility more seriously
than you do, obviously.

You are the person with the attitude problem, so stop wasting bandwidth
and belitting the work of others.  I suggest heckling some soup kitchen
or sandbagging volunteers in stead... there you can't hide behind your
terminal.

Al.

Al "one of these people and proud of it" Korzonas
Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:14:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: BJCP exam

Dennis writes:
>It seems that the Study Guide for the BJCP Exam makes it clear it is
>important to know commerical examples to common beer styles.  My question
>is the various study guides seem to list the brewery at times, and other
>times the name of the Beer.  Which is expected for the exam?

Enough to identify the beer clearly.  "Old Speckled Hen" is probably enough
without "Morland's" and frankly, I can't remember the brewer of "Dos Equis,"
but you'll have to include the brewery in "Fuller's ESB" or "Pabst Blue
Ribbon."  It certainly wouldn't hurt, though.
 
>Also when dealing with Commercial Styles that have a geographical necessity
>in the name for beers sold (such as Lambic, Kolch, etc.), is it then by
>necessity that only those Commercial Styles from that region are looked
>for, i.e. A Kolch-style beer out of its region; or a made-like-a-Lambic
>from Great Britain.

If you simply gave a minimal answer to each question, I don't think you would
get more than an 89.  One key to getting 90+ is showing "depth of knowledge."
If I were scoring an exam and someone brought up the fact that there is a
beer made in Great Britain that is made with similar microbiota as a Lambic,
I would consider that showing depth of knowledge and it would contribute
to their receiving a 90+ score from me.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:04:24 PDT
From: "Bill Jackson" <jackew at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE Trip to England

Hi Wade,
If you're going to York try "The Maltings" http://www.maltings.co.uk.  
It was excellent when we were there in February.  Good British Ales and 
Belgians.
Also try http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/petef/beer.html for lots of good 
York pubs.

Bill J
Adelaide, South Australia


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:54:58 -0600
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: AHA NHC

Fellow HBDers,

There's been a lot of discussion about the AHA's National
Homebrew Competition (NHC), especially the First Round Site in
Lowell, Mass.  With this discussion, there has been some
misunderstandings and finger-pointing.  So let me attempt to
clear up some of this.  (I will also respond to some of you
individually.)

First of all, the Lowell, Mass. First Round Site is not a failure
or debacle.  To me, failure would be not taking the best care of
the entries or rushing through the judging with sub-par judging.
I will not let that happen.  It will take longer to judge the
entries than anticipated, but all the entries will be treated
properly and be judged by the best judges possible, BJCP
certified judges.  The judging will be completed by next weekend.

Secondly, the Boston Wort Processors are not responsible for this
delay.  I had mistakenly said that they, as a club, were
boycotting the NHC.  But Jeff Flood, BWP President assured me
that there was no organized boycott.  We knew of the animosity
toward the AHA by some homebrewers in the Boston area before we
set Lowell as the site.  Most of this animosity predates my
tenure at the AHA, so I don't know all the specifics.  However,
if we are going to effectively change and improve the AHA, we
need to hear what's good AND bad with our programs.  I know that
there is a lot of homebrewing knowledge and experience in the
ranks of the Boston Wort Processors and I am open to all
constructive criticism.

Let me also add that to tag the Northeast as "anti-AHA" is
ludicrous.  Of all the first-round sites, the Lowell site was the
largest with 583 entries.  To suggest that we avoid that area is
ridiculous.

Having only been involved with the NHC since April 20th of this
year, here is what I have learned in such a short time:
 - The AHA staff needs to schedule the National Homebrew
Competition better.
 - The AHA staff needs to make sure we have all the Site Directors
in place way ahead of time.
 - The AHA staff needs to make sure we have all the Site Directors
in place way ahead of time.  (This sentence was repeated
intentionally.)

Here is what I already knew:
 - The success of most of the AHA/AOB events and programs depend
on volunteer efforts of the homebrewing community.  We need to
improve how their help is rewarded.

In closing, let me thank Jim Barlow, Terry Bradigan, David
Gannon, Seth Goodman, Donna Gouvua, Will Fields, Peter Girouard,
Claus Holten, Chip Jarry, John Leak, John McCafferty, Bill
Medinger, John Naegele, Shekhar Nimkar, Arnold Peterson, Stephen
Rose, Les Stoddard, Paul Zocco and Joe Zadrozny.  All of you were
amazing!

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
brian at aob.org        http://beertown.org



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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:18:04 +0000
From: irajay at ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re:Attitudes

As always, I find the opinions of Paul Niebergal to be refreshing in 
what is usually a sea of pedantry on HBD.  I know that having said 
that probably opens me to the usual tongue clicking that I usually 
get when I try to make a point here but what the hell.  I've never 
met Paul but I bet he does have the impeccable taste he boasts.  
And that he seems to be able to see through the humbug which makes up 
so much of this list is - I'll say it again - refreshing.  Now let 
me stress that I don't think everything everyone says is humbug.  I, 
too, have learned a great deal from people who are selfless in their 
advice.  But as Paul, I have some trouble with the self appointed 
mavens and wish that some people could lighten up.

I attended a homebrew weekend in Woodland a few months ago and was 
impressed and also shocked at the incredible sophistication some 
people had brought to the (I thought) simple skill of homebrewing.  
But I also found something refreshing there as well.  One of the 
instructors talked about HBD.  He said it was comprised of a group of 
people who knew more about a subject than they should.  Now 
you can look at that anyway you want.  Like I have said, I have 
learned a lot from HBD and I have also seen a lot of strange 
behavior.

Ira Plotinsky


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:12:41 +0100
From: Darren Scourfield <dscourfi at ford.com>
Subject: RE: Fermentation chiller idea

George said;

>I built a cold box that I keep at ~37F (2.8C).  My idea is to keep a 
>reservoir of cold water in the box, with a copper coil running through 
>it.  This coil will be hooked up to another coil outside of the cold 
>box.  This second coil will be immersed in water in an insulated 
>container of some sort (this will be called the "fermentation 
>reservoir").  The fermenters will sit in the water with the second 
>coil.  A pump will circulate the liquid between the two coils.

Why not delete the coil in the "fermentation reservoir" and just
circulate the water in the "fermentation reservoir".

This would eliminate one heat exchange operation.
- -- 
Darren Scourfield
Billericay
England


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:19:28 +0200
From: Tom Alaerts <TomA at BUT.BE>
Subject: Re: Blueberry vs. Raspberry

Dear HBD people,

Thanks for all the info you sent me. I decided to use 3kg (6.6 lbs) of
raspberries for my fruit wheat beer. It is now fermenting VERY
enthusiastically. There's enough headroom in the fermenter, so I don't
expect a volcano.
However: one question remains: I received a mail by a real brewer who
claimed that he resulting beer would be way too sour. He referred me to
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/SugAcid.html
<http://hbd.org/brewery/library/SugAcid.html> . Some other info: I
already steeped some 150-200gr of crystal malt while making the wort,
because this would enhance the sweetness, since I expected that the
resulting brew would be somewhat sour, but not that it would be
extremely sour.
I admit, I am getting a bit nervous about it (it is also my most
expensive batch till now). Can anyone give me advice? Perhaps I can add
something while priming?
Cheers,

Tom



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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:29:14 +0200
From: Tom Alaerts <TomA at BUT.BE>
Subject: Re: clone recipes

A while back I posted a question about the puzzling differences between
"clone" recipes. I got a few interesting answers. Now, I accidentally
deleted a mail (together with some spam-junk) from someone who got real
recipes from Pete's and Sierra Nevada. Could this person email me back?

Thanks,

Tom


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:07:14 -0500
From: "Keith & JoAnn Zimmerman" <keithzim at computron.net>
Subject: Brewing On The Open Sea

Here is one I doubt anyone has seen on the HBD before.  
A friend of mine plans on living on a yacht once he retires. He questioned
me about the 
possibility of brewing on his boat.  I'm not sure this is possible because
of the pitching 
of the boat in rough water. I'm wondering if something could be easily
built to keep his 
fermenter steady. I told him that I would check around and see if I could
by some 
strange chance find someone who may have developed a way to accomplish
this feat.

Keith Zimmerman, Lake Jackson, Tx


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:06:12 -0400
From: "S. Wesley" <wesley at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Strange Mash Tuns  :  )

Hi Folks,
	Do you ever find yourself wandering around your local home improvement
superstore muttering "hmmmm I bet I could use that in the brewery"?  I'm
getting ready to enlarge my system over the summer from .5+ barrel to
1.0 + so my eyes (and mind) are always wandering in this vein.  I've
been using a 75 qt manifold based cooler which works well enough but
this will obviously not hold the grain bill for a 1 barrel batch.  I
have considered using two mash tuns in tandem, but this seems like it
will be a bit of a pest to operate. 
	A large, inexpensive food grade mash tun could be made out of a (don't
laugh) 1'x2'x4' enamel coated steel bath tub which costs $85. Add your
own lid insulation and manifold and you've got a mash tun. The best part
is that it comes with a built in drain which is already set up for
plumbing fittings. 
	Next we have the commodious porcelain mash tun with built in hot liquor
tank. Just jiggle the little handle and you're sparging.:)
					Bye,
					Simon


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:20:48 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Fermentation Chiller Idea

I'll take this opportunity to announce a change in my email address &
web page.  I haven't completely moved the web page yet and I'll continue
to monitor my AOL address probably through summer, but please contact me
through the new address (kenbob at elp.rr.com ,
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer) in the future.

George De Piro asks about using water for a Fermentation Chiller:

>      I built a cold box that I keep at ~37F (2.8C).  My idea is to keep a 
>      reservoir of cold water in the box, with a copper coil running through 
>      it.  This coil will be hooked up to another coil outside of the cold 
>      box.  This second coil will be immersed in water in an insulated 
>      container of some sort (this will be called the "fermentation 
>      reservoir").  The fermenters will sit in the water with the second 
>      coil.  A pump will circulate the liquid between the two coils.

The advantage that ice has is that it takes a lot more BTUs to melt it
from 32F ice to 32F water, than is required to change the temperature of
ice or water.  You can figure the BTUs required by knowing that it takes
0.5 BTU to change 1 pound of ice 1 degree F, 1 BTU to change 1 pound of
water 1 degree F, but 144 BTU to melt one pound of 32F ice into 32F
water.  Figuring your ice comes out of the freezer at 0F, and will be
replaced when it melts and rises to 65F:

0 to 32F ice = 0.5 x (32 - 0) = 16 BTU/lb
32F ice to 32F water = 144 BTU/lb
32F water to 65F water = 1 x (65 - 32) = 33 BTU/lb

Since there are 8.3 lb in a gallon of water, these figures translate to
133 BTU for the ice, 1200 for melting the ice, and 274 BTU for warming
the melted ice, for a total of 1607 BTU, 75% of which come from melting
the ice.  My Chiller leaks maybe 30 BTU/hr through the insulation & gaps
so this represents something like 54 hours of service per ice change.

*****

Ken Schwartz
EL Paso, TX
kenbob at elp.rr.com
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:39:08 +0000
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Jack's PU, my PU, and just plain P.U.

Jack Schmidling wrote:

> I suspect Dr Pivo will enjoy my new web page wherein I describe in
> abject humility, the World's Greatest Brewery.


I looked there, but found nothing under any "World's Greatest Brewery"
titleage.  Maychance 'tis the material under "applications"? If so,
plenty of interesting stuff there.  Some of it I would need some greater
clarification of, and some I might even tend to contest, but surely
don't need to do that here.  If you don't mind being pestered with some
questions, wave a flag .

further...

>   In particular, the
> fact that experts can't tell difference between my PU clone and the
> real thing.


That I find even more intrigueing.  Not a mean trick to pull off,
especially considering the numbers of breweries who have borrowed the
name through time, without getting anywhere near the product.

I think I would be more interested in investigating by nose and mouth
rather than description, but likewise have a ton of questions, if you
don't mind.

and even further.....

>  This is only reinforced by the fact that REAL connoiseurs
> prefer mine.


If these people are comparing with the exported Urquell, I don't find
this so difficult to believe.  I've made the point earlier in referring
to English Ales and oxidation/transport damage, that I think the "bigger
they are, the harder they fall".   The whimpy beers just seem to remain
unperturbed.  I don't much care for the exported Urquell myself, and I
hate to sound snobbish on this, but if you haven't tasted Urquell near
the source (the "Urquell"), you haven't tasted Urquell.

I might just add, that I am guessing by your comments, that when I was
referring to the demise of a Bohemian brewery, that you and others might
think I was referring to Plzen..... I wasn't.  There was over 130
breweries in Czechoslovakia then, some of them churning out AMAZING
stuff. Urquell also got it's own personal "waxing" and sung their own
interpretation of the "Bohemian "Rape Me"" (1990's version of the
"Bohemian Rhapsody"), in 1992.  While the original stuff will likely
never be available to the public again, since the brewery was still
state owned, rennovation was not as well "market adapted".  They did one
thing that I have great respect for.... They have retained a semblance
of the old brewery as a "taste reference".  While even if you drink at
the beer hall at the brewery itself, you won't be getting anywhere near
the "real stuff" (they serve the same surrogate that goes in the
bottles), at least it still exists (As opposed to many, which shall
remain but a soft spot in the hearts, minds, and livers of those who
look fondly back to when one could fall through the looking glass, into
the unperturbed cradle of brewing (bring up violin volume to pianissimo,
now))

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:06:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "David M. Campbell" <campbell at dickinson.edu>
Subject: Sour notes in beer


As a first time brewer, I am excited to have discovered the network of
beer drinkers and brewers out there who like myself, enjoy a good home
crafted beer.  I brewed a light, summer ale about a month ago, and it has
been conditioning in the bottle now (chilled) for about 3 weeks.  When I
recently poured a sample, I noticed a slightly sour aftertaste.  I wonder
if anyone could help me identify what that might be.  I hope that it is
not due to any sanitation procedures, because I was extremely careful
about this process being that it was my first time brewing.

I also used about 2 ounces of apricot extract, just enough for a faint
smell, but hardly any flavor at all.  Could this account for the slightly
sour aftertaste I am picking up on?  Any advice anyone has would be
welcomed!  Thanks,

Dave Campbell



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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:36:02 -0400
From: fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu
Subject: Dehumidifier

Greetings folks,

 Peter Calinski asked for help in using a dehumidifier as a cooling 
source for his fridge.

 Dehumidifiers are "high temperature" refrigeration units, much like 
a window air conditioner. The evaporator will only cool to 35 degF or 
so, which  is great for a dehumidifier or perhaps a fermentation 
chiller, but lower temperatures for lagering may be difficult to 
achieve.

 Many dehumidifier evaporators are simply loops of a very soft 
aluminum tubing held vertically by a few supports. If yours is made 
this way you may be able to remove the supports and gently fold the 
evaporator outward until extends horizontally from the dehumidifier. 
Do this very carefully and get it right the first time - the tubing will 
work harden very quickly and get brittle if you try to rebend it.

 The dehumidifier may now be attached to the side of a fermentation 
chamber or other cold box so that the evaporator extends through 
the chamber wall. Mount the vaporator high in the chamber to take 
advantage of natural convective currents which will help even the 
temperature throughout the chamber.


 I have not heard from anybody who has tried this. Since a 
dehumidifier has a relatively large compressor, the chiller will tend to 
be an energy "hog". If I were to build something for my own use, I 
would look for more efficient cooling source. Please let us know how 
the project turns out.
Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


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Date: 17 Jun 1998 09:40:12 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: Stirring Primer


Randy Pressley (hey, is Lisa Marie busy tonight?  Why won't she return my
calls?) asks about stirring the priming sugar into your bottling bucket.

I used to just rack into the bottling bucket on the priming sugar too.  It
worked great.  Until in an epiphanous fit, I tied a bag filter on the end of
the racking tube to keep some hop/trub particles out of the beer.  It kept the
particles out all right.  It also kept the racked beer from swirling
sufficiently to effect mixing.  A smarter (or soberer) person would've caught
this. I did not.  Subsequently, the first two bottles got 90% the priming
sugar, and promptly exploded.

Now, I routinely stir the contents of the bottling bucket with the racking
cane.  I don't think this should cause many problems (certainly less than
making bottle bombs) since the siphoned beer will release CO2, and push out
the O2.

Eric Fouch (I like working with wood)
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood MI


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:53:18 -0400
From: Bill Giffin <billg at ctel.net>
Subject: Mashing equipment


Top of the morning to yea all,

Homebrewers have come up with an array of vessels to use for mashing and
lautering.  The Igloo coolers both chest and drink style have been pressed
into service as combination mash tun/lauter tun as well as any number of
RIMS systems.  All of these methods have merit and work fairly well and
each has it champion.  If you use one of these combination methods and are
happy with the way it works for you, great keep on using that method.

In my opinion I find mashing with a simple mash tun, then transferring the
mash to the lauter tun allows me to use any method of mashing commonly
being used.

I use a glass on steel 5-gallon pot as mash tun for most of the beers I
brew.  I find the larger diameter of the 5-gallon pot easier to mix the
mash in then the taller and smaller diameter of the Igloo.  The healable
pot allow the mash tun to be directly fired which eliminates having to
dilute the mash in order to maintain its temperature or raise the temperature.

Many homebrewers have gone to the Igloo to maintain the temperature of the
mash as the Igloo is insulated. Maintaining  the temperature of the mash in
the steel pot can be done in a number of ways.  A very easy way is to pop
the tun into an oven heated at the temperature of the rest you want to
maintain.  Another easy method to maintain the temperature of the tun is to
make a box from 2" foam board, then covering the tun.  This will maintain
the temperature in the tun for about 90-min.

Transferring the mash to the lauter tun only takes a couple of minutes and
allows the filter bed to set up better the in the single tun method.  Your
Igloo isn't a lost venture.  Use it as the lauter tun.  

Bill




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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:15:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: Sour grape flavors

"Sour grape flavors - If you're getting a lot of sour grapes in your
organization, don't blame the component groups.  Face up to the fact that
your procedures are not clean enough.  Disorganization, often enhanced
by warm holiday weekends, and sluggish response to complaints is to blame
for sour grape beer. "

Isn't that advice just wonderful?

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:33:06 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Re: Fermenter temp control

George asks about using a cooling resevoir to chill his fermenter.  
Sounds like a good idea to me.  Let me share some data points with 
you.

I ferment my pilots in a unitank that can easily ferment 1 BBL of 
wort.  I use a chill loop inside the manway to provide a heat 
exchange surface.  When I first setup this system I used a 15 gallon 
stock pot to hold chilled water inside a very cold fridge.  The 
fridge was kept at 31F.  A pump is used to circulate this chilling 
water through the manway loop and back into the holding tank.  I 
routinely fermented and held 62F in the unitank for ales with this 
setup and post fermentation I could drop the temp to around 56F 
before the fridge locked up with frost.  Worked for ales but defeated 
some of the main features of a unitank, being able to crash cool and 
drop proteins and yeast and carbonate to 2.5 Vols while holding at 
32-40F.  One obvious drawback with this system was the very poor heat 
transfer beteween the cold air of the fridge and the coolent.  (BTW, 
remember that the main load issue is during high krausen when it 
takes more BTUs to hold a higher temp than when no exothermic 
activity is taking place post ferment at a lower temp.)

I finally invested in a glycol chiller to resolve this.  I settled on 
a nice small unit sold by Rapids called Panacea long draw chiller.  
It holds an 11 gal resevoir of glycol (I use a 50/50 water/glycol mix 
with the Sierra brand glycol so if my precious Lab Dunkles gets in, 
he hopefully wont die on the spot).   The chiller encorporates two 
copper coils in the glycol resevoir for heat transfer.  When I set 
this glycol at 28F, I could keep a fermenter of 1 BBL at 50F.  When I 
dropped it to 22F I could keep the fermenter at 43F.  This has worked 
great for ales like Altbier so far.  One of my current limitations is 
that the chill loop inside the fermenter is not completely immersed 
in wort/beer when I only ferment 1 BBL batches.  I think this will 
work better/more efficient when I brew slightly larger batches to 
keep the entire chill loop immersed.   BTW, even with an efficient 
heat exchange as in this chiller, the compresser does run often as it 
is chilling 11 gals to transfer a load into 31 gals.

Unitanks are fantastic for all the reasons cited in yesterdays digest 
but are of course quite pricy.  Mine cost 2K before I put triclovers 
and digital temp controls on.  Add another 1K for the chiller and 
these things do add up.  But, I now have the ability to confidently 
perform temperature controlled ferments with gradual temp reductions 
which mimic the same process done in professional breweries.  I loved 
my open fermenter too but it did have its limitations.

Prost!

Jim Busch
Colesville, Md


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 10:32:16 est
From: paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: Big 'ol food warmer (mash tun) 

HBDers,

Cory in 2741 acquired a monster Gott-like square food warmer and wants
to use it to make a ba-zillion gallons of beer.  My kinda guy : ).

If I had it , I'd put a drain near the bottom of one of the sides.  When I was
mashing in a 10 gallon Gott,  I learned thru the HBD that by simply unscewing
the OEM spigot, a standard Fass-Frisch mini-keg red rubber
bung fits in the spigot's place perfeclty.  The hole in the bung acccepts 1/2"
OD refrigerant copper pipe perfeclty w/o leaks.

The Fass-Frisch might work depending on the wall thickness of the warmer.  At
the very least, you could simply put a bulkhead fitting like
those offered in U.S. Plastics' catalog.  Then inside the cooler attach
an Easymasher or make up a slotted copper manifold.

If you intend to fly-sparge with this thing, that is, drain out the wort while
at the same time adding sparge water at the top of the grain bed, you could just
lay the sparge water tubing right on top of the grain bed in a snake-like
pattern.  Just make sure yyou've got a inch ot two of water above the bed.

With this thing you could make 10 gallons of Barley Wine.  That alone makes it
worh it.

Mike Spinelli
Mikey's Monster Brew
Cherry Hill NJ  



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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:38:08 -0400
From: Hutch <kahlua at intrepid.net>
Subject: Re: stuck fermentation

regarding the response in HBD #2737, re: stuck fermentation.     
I would ? the value of not aerating the stuck wort/young beer.  I may be
wrong with this so  please comment if you have any information that would
be helpful.

What's the difference in aerating now as opposed to the aeration during
the initial pitching (maybe 4 or 5 days)?  The new yeast, if healthy should
absorb all the O2 during its respiration phase.  Basically your just working
with a wort that's at a gravity of 1.029 or whatever.  In general, I was 
under the impression that it takes some energy (on the part of the brewer)
to properly aerate the wort in the first place.  Also, I'm not sure that 
someone could adequately aerate the yeast in the reduced volume of a starter.
If that where the case than wouldn't we all just aerate the starter and not
aerate the wort with all our beers?  At worst you may expose the already 
fermented portion of your beer to O2, but you still have almost a half of
your beer that has not fermented yet!

If re-pitching means that your trying to recover from a problem that you
already have, than what do you have to loose?  Perhaps there will be some
reduction in the life span of your beer (oh well).  I guess you will just
have to drink it up a little faster, and try to get it right with your
next batch.  

What do breweries do when they pitch another type of yeast for big beers,
do they aerate at all?  Isn't that basically the same thing we have with
a stuck fermentation.  If we don't aerate the beer than how does the new
yeast begin its life cycle, with no oxygen or not enough?  How can that be
healthy for the yeast?					Hutch <>



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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:46:36 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: re: re: Alternate Bottle Filling Technique - Vacuum


>>Here's a alternative solution: Get a bottling bucket that has a spigot
>>at the bottom. No siphon hassles here.

>Use a drilled stopper and some tubing.  Jam the stopper into the spigot
>(on the inside of the bucket).  Cut the tubing so that is just long enough
>to reach the opposite side of the bucket.

>When you bottle, make sure the bucket is above the bottles.  For the most
>part, the beer in the bucket will drain into the bottles, but and this is
>the neat part, when the level of the beer drops below the level of the
>spigot, you will be siphoning the last few bottles of beer.
>
>Works for me, and there is rarely ever more that 1/2 cup or less of beer
>left in the bucket.

I assume you still need something on the "bottle end" to stop the flow. 
Something such as a Phil's Philler.  That is what causes my problem. The
left over hops from dry hopping in the bucket clog the Philler or any other
device that "necks down" the flow.  With the vacuum method, I just use a
straight tube - no neck down.  The flow stops when I lift the stopper from
the bottle rim and break the vacuum.

>From the replies I have received, everything seems to indicate that a
better solution is to get rid of the hops before I fill. I just haven't
found a good way to do that without leaving a lot of beer behind or
disturbing the sediment on the bottom of the fermenter.

I guess I need to work this angle harder.  


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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 07:55 PDT
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Rye Pale Ale Recipe

I got a few requests for the recipe. Here it is:

Deer Valley Rye (5 US Gallons)
OG 1.055
FG 1.016
Est IBU's 35
Est Color 1012L

Malts/Sugars:
  0.50	lb.	Crystal 100L             
  1.00	lb.	Rye (malted)             
  0.50	lb.	Flaked Rye               
  2.25	lb.	DWC Munich Light             
  7.25	lb.	HB Pale Ale                 
  0.50	lb.	Malted Wheat                    

Hops:
 0.50	oz.	Chinook        	12.5%	60 min
 0.75	oz.	N. Brewer      	 8.1%	30 min
 0.50	oz.	Kent-Goldings  	 4.9%	10 min
 1.00	oz.	Cascade        	 4.8%	Dry Hopped 10 days

 1 Teaspoon Irish Moss  at  15 minutes

Mash Temperature: 155F

Wyeast 1056 - 9 days  at  60-63F

1 Teaspoon gelatin finings when transferred to secondary

Notes: Next time do a glucan rest for 15 minutes at somewhere
between 95F and 105F based on recommendations of several
brewers from HBD. Need to do more research on exact temp for Rye
due to variations in recommendations. Jim Busch got a comment
on that?





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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:06:37 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Fermentation chiller idea

George asks about building a fermentation chiller.

I once built one that used a submersible aquarium pump in the cooling
water which circulated the water through the cooling coil.  It worked
well and only needed one coil.

Another idea, I did not try was to use my regular brewhouse fridge (set
at lager temps) to hold a small  container of coolant and the pump, that
way I would not need to keep feeding it ice.  The only catch here, is
you will need passage for the two hoses and the power cord (all may be
very small diameter).

If you can get some sort of radiator type of heat exchanger, like an
automobile AC condenser core, then you could maybe circulate liquid
coolant through it with a small muffin fan to blow through it.  This
could be used in one or both locations, you would not need to submerse
the fermenter in water, but instead could use a large insulated box.

And yes, you can use a thermostat to control the pump, it works very
well.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 11:27:55 est
From: paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: Why cani sugar in Blegian brews?

HBDers,

If candi sugar ferments completely as does dextrose, sucrose, etc,
then what's the purpose of it?  To up the gravity?  Or to impart a winey taste
to the brew?

Is this one of those things that's just "tradition" and that's why we still do
it today?  I mean if the candi sugar imparts a flavor unobtainable with malt tha
n I could see using it, but if it's just to bump up the gravity  then why not
just use more malt?

Mike Spinelli  Cherry Hill NJ



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Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:39:32 -0400
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: cleaning flux off of copper pipe

Cleaning with solvents will probably not be needed.  Plumbers use the 
paste flux on potable water lines all the time, and don't flush with
acetone.  If you have PVC ball valves in the system, acetone will soften
and ruin them.  If you have stainless/brass ball valves, the plastic
seating material should be teflon, and would be unaffected by the solvent.
I would reccoment flushing with very hot water.  Then run some cool water 
through the pipes and taste it.  If you feel you have to use a solvent,
try rubbing alcohol (isopropanol).  It's a very mild solvent that's
cheap, and can be rinsed away with water easily.  If you can get to the
insides of the joints, get a small bottle brush, (or test tube brush),
and swab them out with either TSP solution, B-Brite or PBW.  That'll
do the trick.  Stay away from gasoline or acetone, since you will then
have to clean the pipes again to get the solvent out.
Hope this helps,
	-----wade hutchison
>Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:36:18 -0400
>From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
>Subject: Re: Cleaning your nightmare
>
<snip bulk of message from John Palmer>
>> 
>> The liquid fluxes can be washed off with detergents and water.
>> 
>> For final cleaning, I recommend  white distilled vinegar.
>> 
>> John Palmer
>
>John,
>I used the paste. I'm concerned about the effects of gasoline or acetone
>on the plastic (?) seals in the ball valves. They are soldered in place.
>Do you think a diluted acetone solution would work ok. Say half acetone
>and half h2O and a 5 minute soak followed by a quick rinse. Also, I'm
>curious what the significance is of using high octane gasoline. How
>about TSP? Acetone scares me a little (though I use it occasionly for
>thining epoxy) and gasoline, well, wouldn't have been my first choice
>though I used to use gasoline as a solvent religiously back in my dirt
>bike days. ;)
>Thanks,
>Dave L.
>
>

	


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---