---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Styrofoam working tip. ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: Why Candi sugar in Belgian brews ("Matthew J. Harper")
  Eisbock's ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Re:candi sugar/Why not aerate stuck ferment/sour fruit beer (George_De_Piro)
  Overnight mashing revisited / candi sugar substitute ("Jay Spies")
  Bitchin, Study Hard (John Varady)
  Wort Aeration ("Gregg Soh")
  stuck fermentation (Domenick Venezia)
  Mill roller spacings (montgomery_john)
  Really Really Big Batches and stuff (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  RE: Why candi sugar in Belgian brews? (Robert Arguello)
  Re: Dextrins and head retention (Al Korzonas)
  belittling (Paul Niebergall)
  An Open Letter to Brian Rezac of the AHA (Samuel Mize)
  attitudes and The Man Who Knew Too Much (Samuel Mize)
  HBD (Al Korzonas)
  Wyeast 1968 (ricjohnson)
  attitude (ricjohnson)
  sour brew/AOB bashing (Al Korzonas)
  Decoction: a summary of responses (Matthew Arnold)
  Mashing and laeutering in separate tuns (Al Korzonas)
  mashfest '98 ("Ted Hull")
  Attitudes (Jim Herter)


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:47:26 +0000
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Styrofoam working tip.

Have seen a lot of chatter about building insulated fermenters, cold
boxes and the like of late.

I haven't followed it closely, so at the risk of repeating, I'll pass on
a "tip" that made life easier for me.

I am very fond of Styrofoam (polystyrene, cellplast, frigolit, etc.) as
an insulating material.  The biggest problem with working with it, is
joining it to stuff.

Regular glues of all sorts just melt it.  The special glue made for it
is messy, horribly expensive, and likely pretty toxic.

I learned this trick from a builder, and am forever grateful....

The stuff that you lay tile on (and here I don't know the English
word... it's not "grout", but the goop you make a furrowed pattern in to
actually "glue" the tile to the intended surface.... ok we'll call it
"tile goop") works great!

I've done the walls of my cellar in one of my fermentation rooms, was
pretty liberal with it at first, but it turns out you just need a
"patch" for each corner of the intended sheet (slap it there with a
putty knife), press it in place, and it stays there!

It fills uneven surfaces, works on wood as well (a la cellar door), is a
snap to work with and doesn't cost much.

On roofs, it's probably good to have some support until it dries, but on
walls, it is viscous enough to just slap the sheet up, and your done!

I did that room a year ago and it's still sitting solid as a rock
despite the (quite heavy, and sometimes unsteady) traffic.

Dr. Pivo (gawd, I like things that work.)


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:18:39 -0400
From: "Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com>
Subject: Re: Why Candi sugar in Belgian brews

Mike Spinelli queries the use of Candi Sugar in Belgian ales rather than
more malt.

Mike, you have part of one of the reasons already, from your own post.
To bump up the gravity.

Other reasons:

1. Impart a darker color to the beer (if you use dark candi sugar...)
2. Raise the gravity *without* increasing the malt flavor
   significantly as part of the process
3. Use of the candi sugar *does* ever so slightly affect the
   flavor profile, both in a sherry-like fashion as well as in a
   hard-for-me-to-desribe (I'm not beer judge) profile similar
   to the sugar itself.  (Perhaps it's just psychological... I tasted
   the sugar before I added it... :-)


Best source of info on the is the Belgian Ale book in The Classic
series.

Best Belgian brews in the world come from Grimbergen.
But you'll have hell of a time finding one in the states. :-(

 -Matth



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:38:19 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox"<pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Eisbock's





From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 06/18/98 09:38 AM

Well, after polling my local collective I still haven't found anyone who
has actually made an Eisbock themselves. So I will look to the great
collective for advice. In Feb. I made a nice malty Doppelbock to initiate
my new half barrel system. My Initiator Doppelbock came out at 1080. Its
been lagering since mid-march at as low as my borrowed fridge would go.
~30F.  So I asked a club member If I could use his old chest/beer freezer.
He said sure but he didn't know how cold it went. (Sorry Forest, I have no
idea what model it is) When I arrived with my 4.5 gal of Doppelbock in my 5
gal coke keg (extra head space on purpose), I discovered it was indeed and
OLD freezer. But it did have a manual adjustment for coldness. We dropped
the keg in and agreed that a slow temp drop was better. So 3 deg's a day
till we bottomed out the Controller. Then he took the controller off and
waited to see what happened. Well, it may be old, but it still works!!! I
checked my keg yesterday and found a 5 gal beercicle! Frozen solid!
 -20F!!!!!!! Ouch. So now what do I do? I look at it 2 ways.

1. Let it partially melt and rack off 3 gal of Eisbock.
2. Let it fully melt, and start over, trying not to freeze it entirely this
time.

1 is definitely easier. But, if the keg froze from the outside towards the
center then the concentrated higher alcohol is in the center of the keg.
This will melt last. And is what I am trying to remove. So by letting it
partially melt I may not achieve what I wish too. Now I see a #3
possibility

3. Let it partially melt and rack off 2 gal of melting's and call the rest
Eisbock.

Suggestions? Advice? Comments? Has anyone else tried this process?

Phil Wilcox
Sec/$er/Editor/Webguy of the Prison City Brewers
http://hbd.org/prisoner

PS. To those who wish to bash the AHA or the HBD "Mavens" Knock-it-off!
Stop biting the hand that feeds you. You ungrateful slugs! We wouldn't be
here if it weren't for their efforts. So to Brian Rezac, Al Korz, Dave
Burley, and the other "mavens" a sincere Thank You for all you efforts Past
Present and Future!




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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:58:18 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Re:candi sugar/Why not aerate stuck ferment/sour fruit beer

     Hi all,
     
     First, let me apologize to those who are offended by those of us who 
     take the time to answer people's questions.  The world would be a much 
     better place if people just kept knowledge to themselves, and we 
     wouldn't have this digest cluttering our mailboxes.  I wish I could 
     get over this sick desire to help others.  Those 5 years as a Bronx 
     zoo volunteer were such a waste!
     
     Sorry, sorry...
     
     Mike S. asks why the Belgians (and others) bother to use sugar to 
     boost the gravity of a beer.  Why not use more malt?
     
     The reason a Belgian-style Tripel can be relatively light and 
     quaffable, despite its extreme alcohol content, is because of the use 
     of candi sugar.  The sugar ferments completely, producing alcohol but 
     contributing no body or malt flavor.
     
     The reason the beers are not insipid is because a large amount of malt 
     is used (unlike old-time beginner homebrew that may get 50% of its 
     fermentables from corn sugar).  Compare a the body and "quaffability" 
     of a 6-7% ABV Hellerbock with that of a 9-10% ABV Tripel (like 
     Westmalle or Eau Benite).  That's the best way to answer your 
     question!
     -----------------------------------
     "Hutch" asks why the semi-fermented beer discussed in last week's 
     digest should not be aerated.  He raises the issues of yeast health, 
     and postulates that the yeast would quickly take up the O2, thus 
     minimizing damage to the beer.
     
     The partially fermented beer contains many chemicals that the wort 
     does not.  Some of these (like the various alcohols) will oxidize 
     readily and give the beer a stale taste in very little time.  The 
     yeast may not remove the O2 before damage is done.  Check out Scott 
     Bickham's article about stale flavors in beer in the recent issue of 
     _Brewing Techniques_.
     
     Another problem with oxidizing the fermenting beer is that it will 
     inhibit the yeast's ability to reduce diacetyl.  A buttery 
     LaChouffe-style beer would not be, um, to style.
     
     The shelf life of the resulting oxygenated beer will be greatly 
     reduced.  While the advice to drink it quickly may appeal to some, it 
     doesn't appeal to all.  A high alcohol beer like this will likely 
     benefit from some aging, so it needs to have a decent shelf life.
     
     If you don't believe me (and there is no reason for you to), go out 
     and buy a bottle of Sam Smiths (the pale ale is a good one to try this 
     with).  Smell it.  Taste it.  The butter.  The cardboardy staleness.  
     The metallic finish.  It's all there.  Why does it travel so poorly?  
     Because they aerate the ferment to rouse the yeast in the Yorkshire 
     squares!  It is a beer that needs to be drunk fresh, not 4 months 
     after it was brewed.
     
     Of course, some people will say that these flavors don't exist at all, 
     because their impeccable palates cannot detect them.  I guess that the 
     flavor training I went through at Siebel was actually a scam.  What a 
     racket they have going!
     
     As far as yeast health and growth go:  yes, that can be an issue when 
     repitching a stuck ferment (as I and others said last week).  The 
     yeast can be grown up with lots of O2, though, so that they are very 
     healthy and viable at the time of pitching.  Andy Walsh once wrote 
     some interesting stuff about a pitching technique where the yeast are 
     oxygenated prior to pitching, rather than oxygenating the wort.  If I 
     remember correctly, this kind of stuff involves yeast viability and O2 
     monitoring beyond the reach of most of us, so it may be better to 
     stick with procedures that you know produce good results for you.  Of 
     course, being courageous can pay off...or not.
     ---------------------------------
     A quick note:  Tom A. wrote, referring to his fruit beer and potential 
     sourness:
     
     "I received a mail by a real brewer..."
     
     What are the rest of us?  The last time I checked, I was quite real.  
     I take up space, people notice my presence, and I can move objects.  
     Oh, yes, and I brew!  I guess I could just be a part of the mind of 
     some vast alien intelligence, but let's assume I'm not...I think that 
     I'm as real a brewer as any!
     
     All kidding aside, I would not proclaim that your beer WILL be sour.  
     It may be a good guess, but YOU are there to taste it; none of us are. 
     Stop wondering and take a sample!  Such an act will replace your worry 
     with happiness or upset, but either is better than uncertainty!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:56:22 +0000
From: "Jay Spies" <spiesjl at mda.state.md.us>
Subject: Overnight mashing revisited / candi sugar substitute

All -

A follow-up thread to my Big Brew Big Halt post of late . . .

After finishing the sparge on the Big 10, I still had quite a high 
gravity reading on the leftovers, but stopped the sparge b/c I had 
reached 6.5 gallons.  However, having gotten a late start to the 
brewday, I finished the sparge about 8:30 pm.  I assumed that I had 
enough runnings left in the 10 gallon Igloo to do a small beer with 
them, but alas, I had no time, and work was calling in about 9 hours.  
(BTW, 22 lbs of grain is about the *limit* in a 10-gallon cooler).  
So, being the adventurous type, I decided to experiment with sour 
mashing by letting the mash sit from 8:30 pm until 5:30 pm the next 
day.  I covered the Igloo with blankets, and went about my business.  
When I got home at 5:30. I opened the Igloo, and *WOW* -- sour as hell. 
The temp had fallen to 142 dF, and I decided what the hell, it's 
either sparge and see what happens, or throw the mash away.  So, I 
opened the valve, and ran out the mashtun while ladling ~145 dF 
kitchen sink water over the top of the grainbed (I can actually 
*feel* some of you cringing).  OG in the fermenter was a ridiculous 
1.038, and I added a rehydrated Edme pack that I had had lying around 
for about 3 months (how many brewing conventions can we break at 
once?)  Fermentation went fine for 1 day, and then stopped.  FG was 
1.014.  Taste?  POW!!  Does a lemon pLambic sound good to you?  My 
question is, what can I, or should I, add to the beer to sweeten it 
up, so it is at least *minimally* palatable, and vaguely reminiscent of 
a sour mash-type beer?  Sucrose (non-fermentable) sounds good, but 
how much?  Advice would help.

Also, along the sugar vein, does anyone know what I could substitute 
in a Trippel for clear candi sugar?  The stuff is ungodly expensive, 
and there has to be a cheaper way to do it and still get *whatever it 
is* that candi sugar contributes to Belgian beers.  Again, advice 
would help.

TIA,

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:06:00 -0700
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Bitchin, Study Hard

If the only contribution one can make to this forum is to gripe about this
or complain about that, I would ask that you hold your (virtual) tongue.
The tireless efforts of the few have indeed helped the many. If it wasn't
for some topics being repeated ad-nauseam, I would have never picked up on
them. Even long before I had any interest in what was happening in my tun
at 109F, my reading about it here again and again over the years, caused
the seeds of knowledge to be planted in my brain. When I did begin to yearn
to understand the finer points of brewing, I had a leg up on the game due
to the people here who "knew more about a subject then they should" or as
some would put it, the Zen brewers of our forum. Knowing as much as
possible about something does not make you a deviant and should not be
classified as "strange behavior" (implying it does strikes me as strange,
not refreshing). With all due respect however, I will not be trying
CliniTest anytime soon (but I know the option exists)...

Talking about ad-nauseam, strange behavior, and the BJCP exam: I have come
up with a novel way of studying the myriad styles defined by the BJCP
(69!). I produced .wav files of each style's OG, IBUs, Color, description
and commercial examples and then burned them onto a CD. Now I can listen to
them in my car, at my desk, and anytime I can't spend actually studying.
(To maintain my sanity, I electronically altered my voice so it does not
sound like I am talking to myself).

Thanks to all who fill these pages with useful information.

John






John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net
   



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:31:26 PDT
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: Wort Aeration

Hi, it's been awhile since I last posted, so here's a contribution to 
the digest where homebrewers learn something new everyday(well, for 
newbies like me). Here's my experience with wort aeration: I bought a 
wort aeration pump, sintered SS stone and 0.22 micron air filter setup 
from Brewers' Resource and got to try it out on my most recent batch. I 
used to get looong lag times like 2 - 3 days from splashing my cooled 
wort from a height and bucket-to-bucket pouring (I used pint sized 
starters). This time I aerated for 1 hr prior to pitching (quart sized 
starter here) and 1 hr post-pitching and the airlock started chugging 2 
hours after aeration. I firmly believe that aeration works, at least for 
my setup. Why shouldn't it? That's just how yeasts work. Two hours as 
opposed to two days - best money I've spent for my setup. My 2 cents.

Regards,
Greg Soh

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 07:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: stuck fermentation

Hutch <kahlua at intrepid.net> asks about the response in HBD #2737

>What's the difference in aerating now as opposed to the aeration during
>the initial pitching (maybe 4 or 5 days)?  The new yeast, if healthy
>should absorb all the O2 during its respiration phase.  Basically your
>just working with a wort that's at a gravity of 1.029 or whatever. 

The difference is that there is alcohol and lots of other "finished"
beer products in the wort now.  Various and sundry of these compounds
will not take well to the presence of oxygen.  They will oxidize and
trash the brew.  Off flavors will result.  Shelf-life will be nil.

Domenick Venezia   demonick at zgi dot com



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 10:03:19 -0600
From: montgomery_john at ccmail.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: Mill roller spacings


     
     
     I'm using a malt mill with adjustable rollers. The rollers are stainless 
     steel with longitudinal grooves...standard stuff. What are the recommended 
     spacings of the rollers for various types of grains?
     
     
     jbm




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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:13:29 -0500
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Really Really Big Batches and stuff

Hi All, 

I have recently started experimenting with large batch sizes. Say 30-40
gallons at a time. I am wondering if any other Homebrewers that read the HBD
are doing anything like this and if they have pics of their monster rigs
floating around the www somewhere. 

I am also interested in the setups they are using equipment wise. What
burners? What Chillers? Natural gas? LP? Mash Screens? Fermenters? Pump
setups? Rims? What kind of extraction rates are you getting? Average Grain
Bill? Average Hop amounts? Recipes? and all other aspects of this craziness
I have gotten myself into...

Has anyone taken one of these 1 barrel systems and opened up a small scale
Brew Pub with them? If so, what size Pub and what was the success rate?

I have pics of my Keg and 55 gallon drum conversions living on a www site
that is here: http://beatles.andinator.com/~skotrat/equipment if anybody is
interested.

There are also some images of the new 55 gallon Boiler in action. This post
doesn't have to become a thread in the HBD and private email is always
welcome. I just have to know if I am the only moron Homebrewer out there
trying to do this sort of thing. 

I also would like to thank Jim Busch and "The AL" (Al K.) for answering my
questions a while back concerning my journey into the insane "Bigger Batch,
Bigger Brewing Equipment" ordeal. As usual they both had some great insight
and ideas as to how I should go about my quest for more. 

And on a side note... When exactly can a beer skunk? Directly after the boil
is chilled or only after fermentation has taken place? I realize this is
probably a novice question but I can not seem to find a good answer in my
brewing library anywhere. My guess is only after fermentation has completed
but I really have nothing to back that up...

C'YA! 

 -Scott "Bigger is Better especially if'n it is dressed in PLAID" Abene
##############################################################
#                     ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT                      #
#                Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>               #
# http://www.wwa.com/~skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)#
#                                                            #
# "The More I know About Beer, The More I Don't Need The AHA"#
##############################################################



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:38:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: RE: Why candi sugar in Belgian brews?

Mike Spinelli asked about the use of candi sugar:

>If candi sugar ferments completely as does dextrose, sucrose, etc,
>then what's the purpose of it?  To up the gravity?  Or to impart a winey taste
>to the brew?

>Is this one of those things that's just "tradition" and that's why we still do
>it today?  I mean if the candi sugar imparts a flavor unobtainable with
malt tha
>n I could see using it, but if it's just to bump up the gravity  then why not
>just use more malt?

In my experience, candi sugar adds color without adding other flavors that
other "dark sugars" would contribute.... molasses for instance.

Also, the fact that candi sugar is virtually 100% fermentable, you can up
the OG and alchohol content of the brew without increasing the "body" or
malt profile. 
		         	"All In A Day's Wort"
Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
CORNY KEGS FOR SALE!  $12.00 each
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/keg.htm
ProMash Brewers' Software - http://www/calweb.com/~robertac/promash



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:09:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Re: Dextrins and head retention

Scott writes:
>Al Korzonas writes:
>>The sugars typically used by Belgian brewers=20
>>are "candi sucre" which is really virtually 100% sucrose.=20
>>Since sucrose is 100% fermentable, there would be nothing
>>left to contribute to head retention and, in fact, sucrose=20
>>(as well as other simple sugars) are foam negative and=20
>>*reduce* body and mouthfeel.=20
>
>Your points regarding Belgian ales are well taken. However, I still =
>believe there is something unique about Belgian ales, aside from their =
>high gravity, that produce their thick and creamy head. =20

Perhaps... however, consider that Duvel (red/black label), for example, is
about 1.080 OG (the green label is about 1.070).  Even with 10 to 15% 
sucrose, that's an awful lot of malt and lots of head retaining proteins.
It's also carbonated to more than 3 volumes of CO2.  Similarly with
Saison Dupont, Chimay (all of them), Westmalle, Leffe Blonde, Grimbergen
(all of them), Straffe Hendrik... all are at least 1.060 OG.  Orval
is listed at only 1.055 OG, but has 13.5% Caravienne in the grain bill
(which is a LOT) and I suspect that the 1.055 doesn't include the 
candi sucre in the kettle and the invert syrup at bottling because
after bottle-conditioning Orval is 7.1%ABV!

Take a look at http://www.dma.be/p/bier/1_11_uk.htm and consider the
OG's of these beers.  For all malt beers, roughly every 10 gravity
points is 1% ABV (so 1.060 is roughly 6.0%ABV).  For beers with sugars
added, perhaps 10 gravity points give 1.1 or 1.2% ABV.  Note that
the beers with 5%ABV typically have unremarkable head retention except
those which are made with a substantial amount of wheat (like the Wits/
Tarwebiers).

>Candi sucre is *virtually* 100% sucrose, but sucrose itself, as a =
>disaccharide, is not directly fermentable. It is broken down into glucose =
>and fructose where are 100% fermentable. However, they are not fermented =
>100%.

They most certainly are!  Yes, I'm well aware that yeast exudes invertase
which breaks sucrose into its component glucose and fructose, but they are
indeed fermented 100%.  Also, not all disaccharides are unable to be
directly fermented... maltose is a disaccharide and is indeed directly
fermented.

>There are two related comments to this discussion in "Belgian Ale" by =
>Pierre Rajotte. First, he claims Candi Sucre is fermented 95%. Second, he =
>states, "It is claimed that candi contributes to good head retention in a =
>high-gravity, lightly hopped beer."

Perhaps dark candi sucre is only 95% fermentable, but Orval and Duvel use
white, which is something like 99.9% sucrose and therefore for all practical
purposes is completely fermentable.  As for dark candi sucre adding to head
retention, see below.

>I believe the data that we are missing to draw a conclusion would be which =
>dextrins interact with the mid-weight proteins to produce the claimed =
>benefit to head retention.

I agree... I don't agree however that candi sucre provides significant
amounts of dextrins.  Dark candi sucre certainly provide some caramels...
perhaps they interact with the mid-weight proteins?

>I also don't believe that the fermentable sugars left in beer reduce =
>mouth-feel. They do not enhance mouth-feel, but they do not reduce it.

Fermentable sugars don't remain in beer.. they are fermented.  What I
said was that fermentable sugars (sucrose, dextrose, fructose) added to
an otherwise all-malt beer will thin the body... if they didn't Duvel
would have the mouthfeel of St. Jakobus Blonder Bock (thick!)... or some
other all-pale malt 1.080 beer.

Mouthfeel and body are primarily from protein, but dextrins add some.
Sucrose and other fermentable sugars add no protein or dextrins and they
are fermented into alcohol which is lighter in body than even water.  As
a result beers into which fermentable sugars have been added will be
lighter-bodied than all-malt beers.  It is one of the reasons that modern
homebrewers have been so adverse to adding corn sugar (dextrose) to their beer.

Please note that I've been using glucose and dextrose interchangably above.

>Al Korzonas Continues:
>>Finally, an "adjunct" is defined as a non-enzymatic starch source=20
>>(like flaked wheat, pearled barley, potatoes or steel-cut oats).=20
>
>The Practical Brewer defines an adjunct as "non-malt carbohydrate =
>materials of suitable composition and properties which beneficially =
>complement or supplement the principal brewing material." I think sugar, =
>as used in Belgian ales, qualifies for this definition.

This is a much wider definition than I have read elsewhere.  Under that
definition, indeed sugar would be an "adjunct."

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:10:38 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  belittling

Al K writes:

>The fact of the matter is that while I was off in the hospital, 20 or
>30 questions went unanswered.  If you would have gotten off your >high 
horse and answered a few questions, perhaps I would not have >had to. I 
don't feel that answering HBD questions is my sole >responsibility in 
life, but rather it is *all* our responsibility as a >homebrewing 
community.  It's just that I take that responsibility more >seriously 
than you do, obviously.

I as well as many others answered these questions via private e-mail.  The 
reason this is happening is that people with good opinions are being 
driven off-line for fear of impending head bashing.  How many times have 
you seen a post that begins:

*Gee, I*ve been lurking for a long time - I usually don*t post....*
Or
*Sorry if this is wasting bandwidth, but I have a question, please don*t 
hurt me......*
Or
*With the permission of the gods of home brew, I come to you on my knees 
to humbly ask my ignorant question.....*

Why is this happening?  It*s like people are scared to post to the HBD.  I 
care about homebrew more than anyone and all I am trying to do is get 
people to lighten up a little.  If you think it is your responsibility to 
take the poor, huddled masses of homebrew newbies and lead them from 
darkness, then that*s just fine.  But, if you are as serious as I am about 
my commitment to help the home brew community, I  suggest that we all try 
a little harder to keep this forum from becoming an elitist club of 
egomaniacs.  The more people that contributing their experience and 
opinions, the better.

>You are the person with the attitude problem, so stop wasting bandwidth
>and belittling the work of others
>I suggest heckling some soup kitchen
>or sandbagging volunteers in stead... there you can't hide behind your
>terminal.

Time for a reality check here.  I hardly think home brewing is on par with 
feeding homeless people or protecting river towns from the ravages of 
spring floods.  Another clue - this is the Internet, we are all hiding 
behind our terminals!

I am not belittling anyones work.  I think that the technical issues 
discussed here are excellent and your contributions in particular have 
been no less than stellar on a few rare occasions.  What I am belittling 
is the level of arrogance that permeates the HBD.

There*s that bandwidth thing again.  Can somebody please explain to me why 
it is that when someone doesn*t like what you are saying, they accuse you 
of *wasting bandwidth*.  Is bandwidth a commodity or something?  I have 
never  quite understood this.  I guess I could respond to this by saying 
*PAGE DOWN PLEASE*.


Later,

Paul Niebergall

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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:05:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: An Open Letter to Brian Rezac of the AHA

Greetings,

I'd like to thank Brian Rezac for being man enough to admit what he said
about the Boston Wort Processors, and to admit further that he was wrong.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:45:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: attitudes and The Man Who Knew Too Much

> From: irajay at ix.netcom.com
> Subject: Re:Attitudes
> 
> ...usually a sea of pedantry on HBD.
> ... the humbug which makes up so much of this list ...
> ... I have some trouble with the self appointed mavens and wish that
> some people could lighten up.

Speaking of being heavy: don't lead with insults.  You'll get less
"tongue clicking."

Define what you mean without using loaded words.  What behavior exactly do
you consider inappropriate or excessive?  Can you give concrete examples
of postings that have shown that behavior?

> I attended a homebrew weekend in Woodland a few months ago and ...
> One of the instructors [said HBD] was comprised of a group of 
> people who knew more about a subject than they should.  Now
> you can look at that anyway you want.

I look at it as wanting a kindergarten brewer's resource: one that will
tell him what HE wants to know right now, and nothing more.  It won't annoy
him with more advanced details or discussions, or with other peoples'
interests, so he won't ever have to page down.  He certainly won't have to
evaluate what he reads, or actually think for himself.

HBD is more like a one-room schoolhouse.  The beginners get help from the
more advanced students, and also overhear them studying and talking about
harder topics.  Even the kids who don't plan to study a heavy subject like
Latin get exposed to the oral exercises -- some decide it's interesting
after all.  We don't have a teacher, so we all try to help the beginners
and to figure out the hard answers.

We certainly don't all agree, even on some of the basics, and we all
express and defend our opinions.  This makes it one heck of a good learning
and research environment.

If his opinion of HBD is so low, I'd certainly invite him to invest his
time on better resources.  For instance, there's, uh, well...  Never mind.

If, for some bizarre reason, you really feel a need to criticize how folks
post on HBD -- and if you give a rat's *ss whether or not they listen --
try a little courtesy, and try making a constructive suggestion instead of
just nebulously rapping other people.

I mean, "lighten up"?  You're the one bad-mouthing us for the way we try to
HELP other folks.  You lighten up.

I'm tired of nimrods telling us what jerks we are, then saying WE need to
lighten up if we don't like it.  We've been having a good time here.  We're
light.  You're the one with the complaint.  Lighten up.

This is absolutely, positively my last post on this subject.  Unless
somebody pisses me off again.

Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:07:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: HBD

Ira writes:
>As always, I find the opinions of Paul Niebergal to be refreshing in 
>what is usually a sea of pedantry on HBD.

As I recall, his post added nothing positive to the HBD.  Ira's post
at least was polite and pointed out that there are a variety of 
levels of interest in the complexity of brewing.

Ira continues:
>I attended a homebrew weekend in Woodland a few months ago and was 
>impressed and also shocked at the incredible sophistication some 
>people had brought to the (I thought) simple skill of homebrewing.  
>But I also found something refreshing there as well.  One of the 
>instructors talked about HBD.  He said it was comprised of a group of 
>people who knew more about a subject than they should. <snip>

To *best* answer a question on apple aroma in a beer, it does help to
know the process by which acetaldehyde is produced, the factors in
the recipe and process that increase the production of acetaldehyde,
the process of reabsorption of acetaldehyde, the factors in the
process that incrase the reabsorption of it and the fact that ethyl
hexanoate (an ester) also lends an apple aroma and that acetaldehyde,
therefore, may not be at fault.  Is this knowing more than necessary?
If it helps someone solve their beer's problem, then I contend it isn't.

If you think the HBD is too pedantic, there are a thousand other
discussions going on over the Internet this very moment.  You could
join into one of them.  It doesn't take long to notice that "does
anyone have a recipe for Samuel Adams Boston Lager?" and "My beer
is cloudy and overcarbonated... what went wrong?" posts alternate
with people trying to use induction to heat wort or discuss which
molecular weight proteins contribute to haze and which contribute
to head retention.  I think that HBD would be a very boring place
if we didn't have both types of posts and everything in between.

I think that the greatest thing about homebrewing is that there is something
for many different levels of interest.  A friend of mine brews nothing
but the Coopers Real Ale kit (corn sugar and all).  The same beer every
time.  He has no intention of learning about the Crabtree Effect or
calculating the thermal efficiency of several different wort chiller
designs.  There are others who love to build equipment.  Others love to
learn about the biochemistry of the yeast.  There are probably another
50 categories of homebrewers.  Yes, there are many HBD members who know
more about brewing than a large number of brewpub and micro brewmasters.

Is that a bad thing?  Is my beer ruined?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:19:23 -0400
From: ricjohnson at SURRY.NET
Subject: Wyeast 1968

Jeff York wrote of Wyeast 1968:
Flavors are metallic and sour/lactic
 - similar to a young plambic exposed to untreated steel.  Blech!  This is
really annoying because now I've got 10 gallons of the stuff. Any advise,
similar experiences, etc?

I too experienced a sour flavor in an ESB when using this yeast, but my
fermentation temps spiked to 76 degrees during the primary and I assumed
this was the reason. Now I have another that has been fermenting for almost
3 weeks and is still bubbling about every 10 seconds. This time my temps
have been a constant 68 degrees. It tasted fine when racked to the secondary
but SG was still 1.024.

Richard Johnson
Mt. Airy, NC



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:19:25 -0400
From: ricjohnson at SURRY.NET
Subject: attitude

Give 'em hell Al!!!. I look forward to yours and "these people's" comments
everyday. Thanks.

Richard Johnson



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:58:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: sour brew/AOB bashing

Tom writes:
>However: one question remains: I received a mail by a real brewer who
>claimed that he resulting beer would be way too sour. He referred me to
>http://hbd.org/brewery/library/SugAcid.html
><http://hbd.org/brewery/library/SugAcid.html> . Some other info: I
>already steeped some 150-200gr of crystal malt while making the wort,
>because this would enhance the sweetness, since I expected that the
>resulting brew would be somewhat sour, but not that it would be
>extremely sour.
>I admit, I am getting a bit nervous about it (it is also my most
>expensive batch till now). Can anyone give me advice? Perhaps I can add
>something while priming?

I feel a little guilty for not mentioning sanitation of the fruit
in my last post.  If the beer is too sour, the problem is a bacterial
infection and not from the raspberries.  The beer I made with a pound
of raspberries per gallon was not too sour.  What I did to sanitise
the fruit (which is guaranteed to have lots of lactobacillus and wild
yeast on it... even if it was frozen... freezing will only kill some
of them) was to mush up the fruit and carefully raise the temperature
to between 140 and 150F (60 to 66C) for 10 minutes, and then adding
it to the secondary.

If the beer does get infected, then even the sweetness from the
crystal malt will be gone.

Here's two more points I omitted: boiling the fruit will "set the pectins"
which will result in permanently cloudy beer (unless you add pectase
(pectic enzyme) to the fermenter) and CO2 will scrub out some of the
aromas, so I suggest you add the fruit to the secondary rather than
the primary.  There will still be some CO2 evolution from the fermentation
of the fruit, but half as much as if you would have fermented both
the fruit and the malt sugars in the primary fermenter.

If your beer is exceedingly sour, I'm willing to bet it was bacteria
that caused it and so unless you pasteurise it after fermentation
(NOT recommended) any sugars you add (even lactose) will be eaten
by the bacteria.  You could try tempering the sourness with calcium
carbonate or you could pitch the dregs from a few bottles of Cantillon
or Boon Marriage Parfait, wait three years and call it pseudo-Framboise
(of the Lambic variety).

***
More AHA/AOB bashing:

Firstly, the AOB is the parent company.  The AHA, IBS, Brewers
Publications and the GABF are under the AOB.

I just got off the phone with a HB supply shop owner... no doubt
you know about the fire sale Brewers Publications had on the Beer
Style Series books.  I just learned from this shop owner that
these incredible prices were not made available to homebrew shops
and now customers are coming in saying: "$11.95!?  I just bought
four of these for $3.95 each at a bookstore!"

I've defended the AOB on other things, but to slap the backbone of
the homebrewing industry like this, (in my opinion) stinks.  I know
of one homebrew book publisher that refuses to give the online
bookstores bigger discounts than they give homebrew supply shops.
It's high time we remember the hand that feeds us homebrewers!

Al.


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:13:14 GMT
From: marnold at netnet.net (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Decoction: a summary of responses

I want to thank all the people who took the time to answer my questions about
decoction mashing. As I anticipated, there are a wide variety of ways to
decoct, with varying merits. To sum up the replies I received:

1) Try mashing in around 105F and using the decoction to bring it up to 130-135
then use boiling water to bring up to saccrification temperature. This keeps
the mash from sitting at the protein rest temperature too long.

2) Mash in at the protein rest temperature of your choice and let the mash
temperature drop. Thus the mash will fall into ranges where the enzymes have
been deactivated. Naturally this adds a degree (hah!) of difficulty in
predicting the size of the decoction to get up to the saccrification
temperature.

3) Forget about it entirely and use a pound or less of Melanoidin or Aromatic
malts.

4) Stick to brewing English ales (OK, I made this one up myself).

I may yet give decoction a whirl. Right now, though, I'm working on my IPA and
Wit recipes. Wish me luck!

Once again, thanks for all your help!
  Matt

P.S. NotObBrewing: How 'bout those Red Wings?
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:43:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Mashing and laeutering in separate tuns

Bill writes:
>I use a glass on steel 5-gallon pot as mash tun for most of the beers I
>brew. <snip>

and:
>Transferring the mash to the lauter tun only takes a couple of minutes and
>allows the filter bed to set up better the in the single tun method. <snip>

How so?  I mash and laeuter in a single 18.75-gallon SS kettle into which
is mounted three EasyMasher(tm)-like screens that are connected with a SS
cross which is connected to a ball valve on the outside.  I have never had
any trouble establishing a filter bed (although I have not tried rye or
wheat in this tun) and it has held as much as 46 pounds of malt.  It has
a 50,000 BTU ring burner under it.  See my website for photos.

Also, wouldn't the transfer of the mash from mashtun to laeutertun
increase the amount of aeration of the mash that goes on?  I have always
tried to be very careful to minimise introduction of air during the mash,
but I believe that Charlie Scandrett once posted that the introduction
of air in the mash may be more detremental than post boil hot-side aeration.
Isn't simpler better?  Also, I dread the thought of glorping* 46 pounds of
malt and 80 pounds of water from one container to another.  Shoveling
55 pounds of damp malt into the compost heap is bad enough!

* glorping is a word coined by fellow Chicago Beer Society member Randy Mosher.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 8:58:22 EDT
From: "Ted Hull" <THull at brwncald.com>
Subject: mashfest '98

Hey folks:

I've been trying to get scoresheets back from this MCAB QE for 6 weeks now. 
My understanding is that awards have been posted on the Web and passed out, 
but that no one has received scoresheets in the mail.  I checked by e-mail 
with Dr. Fix, b/c he won the category I entered.

I know Louis Bonham has been busy with other MCAB issues lately, but I've 
never gotten a response from Scott Mills with the Mash Tongues.

At least some form of explanation would be wonderful. Yes, I'm peeved about 
taking pains to get my entry there quickly (Fedex) and paying the entry fee 
without getting the feedback. But I'm almost to the point of utter 
hopelessness about seeing these in the mail.

Help!

Ted Hull
Atlanta, GA


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:53:57 -0500
From: Jim Herter <james.m.herter.1 at nd.edu>
Subject: Attitudes

I haven't been able to keep up on the HBD lately, but today was an
exception. I generally scan the "Contents" to see the latest and/or
applicable topics. I find myself looking with interest to see who is
posting in response to what topics. Al Korzonas is usually one of these
contributors that do their part to make the HBD worth reading.

I found the comment from Paul,  - "a few individuals who think it is their
sole responsibility in life to respond to every question posted in the HDB.
 Like it is their job or something" - puzzling. 

If responding to posts is not an objective of this list - if not the prime
objective - then what's the point. Hell, I admonish myself for not
participating more than I do. I commend those that do reflect upon their
experiences. The more the contribution, the better. If I don't want to read
about someone's dog showing potential for the BJCP (Which I do. Very
amusing. Gotta get me one of those dog's!), I page down. If you don't
agree, that's your choice.  I myself encourage the input.
Jim Herter
St. Joe Valley Brewers Chairperson
and Great Lakes Brewing News
Indiana Correspondent
219.631.0113


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---