---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Aerating during the ferment (Al Korzonas)
  Why candi sucre? (Al Korzonas)
  Colour ("Graham Wheeler")
  Re: Why cani sugar in Blegian brews? ("Layne and Katrise")
  What's that flavor? ("Hans E. Hansen")
  The Gecko Sump Report (Andy Walsh)
  Thank you ,"All of those people". ("Michael Maag")
  Re: Mashing Equipment (irajay)
  Spice Beer ("Brian Rezac")
  Dehumidifier (Tom Wolf)
  World's Greatest Beer (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: Guinness Nitrogen Bubbler ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  Dehumidifier ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Stiring it up (JGORMAN)
  mulberries ("Henckler, Andrew")
  Citrus Notes (Paul Ward)
  Tin coated copper vessel ("Steven Braun")
  Re: Guinness Nitrogen Bubbler ("Joel Plutchak")
  my 1/2 barrel cooker, comments (Chris Cooper)
  attitudes, Guiness N2 widget and syringe trick (Samuel Mize)
  separate mash and lauter tuns (Lou Heavner)
  Pundit anti-bashing ("Hans E. Hansen")
  Lactable Fermentables? (Andrew Ager)
  All That's Pu does not glitter? (Jack Schmidling)
  stuck stout (John Wilkinson)
  need help with belgian dubbel recipe and mashing pils (Jonathan Edwards)
  Bottling Yeast (Mark Garthwaite)


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rpmattie at voicenet.com. 


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:43:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Aerating during the ferment

Hutch writes (regarding a stuck ferment):
>What's the difference in aerating now as opposed to the aeration during
>the initial pitching (maybe 4 or 5 days)?  The new yeast, if healthy should
>absorb all the O2 during its respiration phase.

Two major differences:

1. the beer now contains a lot of alpha-acetolactic acid which would be
oxidised quickly to diacetyl and the resulting beer would definitely be
higher in diacetyl (this may or may not be a probem), and

2. the beer now contains some alcohol which would be oxidised to aldehydes.
Samuel Smith's aerates during fermentation and I've had some here in the US
that had very strong aldehyde aromas.

and:
>a stuck fermentation.  If we don't aerate the beer than how does the new
>yeast begin its life cycle, with no oxygen or not enough?  How can that be
>healthy for the yeast?                     

Yeast can live and ferment fine without oxygen... what it has difficulty
doing is reproducing without oxygen (or *added* sterols).  They can only
reproduce a few generations before running out of sterols.  The key is
that you aerate the starter well before you pitch the yeast into it,
don't grow your starter more than 5-fold (*ideally*, don't pitch 50 ml
of yeast into more than 250 ml of starter wort, for example) and then
pitch so much yeast into the stuck batch that they don't need to reproduce
very much.  One thing that I've advised in the past with stuck Barleywines
that beer off into a secondary or priming bucket and then pitch a quart
of yeast *slurry* into the stuck Barleywine.  That'll show those darned
sugars!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

P.S.  "respiration phase" is a misnomer... Saccharomyces don't respire
in brewers' wort... they do consume oxygen, however... they just don't
respire it.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:16:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Why candi sucre?

Mike asks why use candi sucre?

When it comes to white, I say just use plain table sugar... they are
both just sucrose.  You would use them in pale beers like Duvel and
Westmalle Tripel that need to be strong, but not heavy.

Regarding dark candi sucre, I did a test comparing table sugar and
500g of dark candi sucre in a split batch (2.5 gal each) of Dubbel.
The candi sucre half tasted a touch more complex.  I doubt that anyone
could identify the difference in flavour if I didn't tell them it
was the type of sugar I added, but there was indeed a slight caramelly
flavour that was unlike crystal/caramel malt.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:31:45 +0100
From: "Graham Wheeler" <Graham.Wheeler at btinternet.com>
Subject: Colour

Colour:

Al Korzonas seems to be confusing the conversion of beer colour between SRM
and EBC with the conversion of malt colour. They are not the same. The
figure he gives of EBC =1.97*SRM is for the conversion of beer colour only.
Both the Europeans and the Americans use degrees Lovibond, the difference
being that (with the traditional visual comparison method) the Americans
reference to a half-inch cell and the Europeans a 25mm cell. Both use
exactly the same Lovibond numbers using similar equipment, the difference
being that they are referenced to a different path length. The magic number
is simply the ratio of the different path lengths. Dividing 25mm by
half-inch (25/12.7) gives 1.968503, the number AlK quotes. This has always
been the case, it has never really been any different, except for a slight
shift by a knat's cock in the early 1950s when the British changed from a
one-inch cell to 25mm. Before about 1950 the magic number would have been
2.

Malt colour, however, is quite different and the original formulae posted
here might well be accurate. Not only does the difference in path length
have to be compensated for, but differences in preparing the laboratory
mini-mash prior to doing the measurement have to be compensated as well.
There are certain assumptions that have to be made too, such as weight of
husk. There are slight differences in colour between Analytica (European)
methods and IOB (British) methods for this very reason. I do not have
access to ASBC analysis methods, but looking at various spreadsheet
thingies published in BT etc, it seems that American home brewers estimate
beer colour from grain on a pounds-per-gallon basis. This (US gallons) is a
12.5% w/v thingy, whereas in Europe 10% is used. That too would have to be
taken into account.

Without having access to ASBC methods I cannot verify whether or not the
posted formulae are any good or dud, but it is from a highly respected
reference after all. They are a bit suspicious because they are not truly
reversable. It certainly isn't simple though.

 
Graham Wheeler
High Wycombe
England

 

  
 
 


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:15:17 -0700
From: "Layne and Katrise" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: Re: Why cani sugar in Blegian brews?

Mike Spinelli wants to know why someone would use sucrose or some highly
fermentable sugar in a beer.

    I use these sugars on a regular basis.  The key here is that it is
highly fermentable.  Because I enjoy most of my beers dry or low in specific
gravity I use these sugars.  The malt sugars vary in composition and include
dextrin's which can leave the beer malty sweet if lots of malt is added to
get the alcohol content up.  This is the main reason that beers finish
fermenting at or above 1.010.  the 10 points there would be the
unfermentable sugars.  Adding more of these from malt would contribute a
higher finishing gravity.
    On the other side of the spectrum a beer made with 50% corn sugar would
finish so dry that the hydrometer reading often appears to be 0.000 or lower
much like a dry wine would which is also very fermentable.
    I do enjoy a malty and chewy beer now and then but I just want you to
understand why we use some of the sugars and adjuncts many brewers do use.
Mostly just for variety.


Layne Rossi
wetpetz at oberon.ark.com
Campbell River, BC
***********************************************************
To try and fail is better than
failing because we didn't try!
***********************************************************




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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:34:54 -0700
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: What's that flavor?

I was at a golf tournament this last weekend that served
Red Hook Blonde.  For a light lawn mower beer (or, more
accurately with my golf skills, weed killer beer), I was
impressed.

What puzzles me is just what I was tasting.  Now this was
keg beer, which, from Red Hook, differs considerably from
bottle.  This beer seemed relatively low in alcohol.  At
least I think so - many people had a dozen or more pints
and no one got noticeably drunk.  Just happy.  However,
it had a thick, creamy mouthfeel.  I doubt it was any more
viscous than normal, but it had the mouthfeel of heavy
dairy cream.  It was slightly sweet like dairy cream,
but not what I would call malty.  I.e. - no comparison
to a malty German beer.  It's head was very thick and,
well, creamy.  Like whipped cream.  (This is beginning
to sound like it came from a cow.)  It's aroma was very
distinct.  I have only smelled this once before and that
was in the original (circa 1985) Grant's Scottish Ale.
Note that the current Grant's lacks this aroma.

Anybody have a clue what I am talking about?  I am not
really trained in recognizing diacetyl, but could this
be the source of all these dairy comparisons?  Note that
there was nothing there that I would compare to butter,
just cream.  Whatever this was, I would like to try and
duplicate it.

If it was diacetyl, how do I intentionally create it?

Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:09:12 -0700
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at ventrassist.com>
Subject: The Gecko Sump Report

*****The Gecko Sump Report*****
			(just a pale southern imitation)

Now you can have your bath and drink it too!
The Kloster Brewery in Neuzelle, Germany is selling a dark beer
concentrate in 3L bottles. Four of these bottles when mixed with water
will fill a 120l bathtub. The brewery says a beer bath soothes the skin
and is good for treating eczema. (Food Processor Apr/May 1998). 

*********
Orlando Wyndham, through their subsidiary company Two Dogs Lemonade (we
all know the joke now. No? Don't ask!) launched "Rhubarb Rhubarb", a new
alcopop, in the southern states of Australia with plans for national
release later this year. (Good grief! they must have been influenced by
the recent HBD thread).

*********
In 1999 the IOB plans to offer a course leading to a qualification in
beer tasting, similar to those already existing in the wine and spirit
industries. Initially the course will be held only in London, but there
are plans to later "internationalise" it.

Gecko Sump.



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:39:35 -0400
From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Thank you ,"All of those people".

As I am typing this, I am drinking the first glass of my first all grain
brew, an English Ale.  It is excellent, if I do say so myself.  I owe it all
to the knowledge I have gleaned from the HBD.  I have read many books on
brewing.  None of them told me my first extract batches had an "off flavor"
because I poured my hot wert through a strainer into cold water in the
carboy al la TNCJOHB.  I discovered that due to the Fixx's response to a
querry regarding a "wet cardboard" taste in by beer.
My first all grain batch was mashed in my Volrath 10 gallon kettle.  I
heated my water to 173F, added 9 lbs of Briess 2 row malt, I lb crystal
malt, and 2 oz black patent.  The temp.  was 155F.  I draped a few blankets
over the kettle and waited 1 hr.  An iodine test showed full conversion.  I
inserted a slotted manifold and siphoned off the wort.  Then I added 155F
water to the kettle and drained it again. (next time I will rig a more
standard sparge arrangement).  Then I brewed as I had my extract batches,
ie, 1 oz hops for 60 min, 1 oz hops for 30 min, 1/4 tsp rehydrated Irish
moss for 15 min ( while my planispiral immersion chiller sanitized).
Chilled to 70F in 15 min  and pitched a cup of  stepped up Thames Valley
Wyeast.  Active fermentation in 4 hours.  Racked to 2ndary and added
geletin, chilled for 3 days and  force carbonated.  I am now on my 2nd pint
and it is getting better and better.  Oh yeh, I dry hopped with 1/2 oz  of
fuggles (I used fuggles for both the bittering and flavor also).
The whole process took only 6 hours on a rainey Saturday.  I did'nt make any
more mess than I did with extract.  And the main thing is, the final product
tastes great and was relatively simple.  This was due to the knowledge
obtained from 2 years of reading the HBD.   "All of those people" who
contribute regularly to this incredible resource have my gratitude.
Mike 8*)
Staunton, Va. ( In the middle of the Shenandoah Valley)



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:54:31 +0000
From: irajay at ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Mashing Equipment

Bill wrote recently about mashing equipment, discussing both Igloo 
Coolers and Ovens as media for mashing.  I am thankful to him for 
opening up this important area of inquiry.

I, too, have experimented with different methods of mashing.  I 
tried, as Bill suggested, putting my mash tun into an oven, but found 
that it was almost impossible (with my oven) to get the same 
temperature on any two occasions using the same thermostat setting of 
the oven.  Adjusting temperatures became a nightmare.

I tried the igloo method but soon discovered that in my hands, at 
least, the igloo really didn't maintain the temperature of the mash 
for a full hour.  Now this may not be important as I recently 
attended a workshop at the American Brewer's Guild in Woodland, CA 
where we were informed that all the extraction  which is to take 
place in a mash takes place in the first ten minutes anyway.  Before 
you scoff at this, the people saying this were seasoned microbrewers 
making beers which you have probably imbibed and enjoyed.  However, 
if you still want to mash for an hour or so, as I do, and want to 
use the igloo, I have discovered that if you put a pot of boiling 
water into the igloo along with the mash, the mash maintains its 
temperature for an hour and my extractions have been remarkably close 
to what I have predicted.

For the Lauter Tun,  I use a large strainer over a bucket and I 
sparge with a siphon, controlling the flow with my burned fingers.  I 
empty the mash into the strainer and sparge.  It's really quite easy 
when you take into account how tedious mashing and sparging can be.

Anyway, just some thoughts to add to Bills.

Ira


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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:46:24 -0600
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Spice Beer

George De Piro <gdepiro at fcc.net> wrote:
> Marc (at JPullman127 at aol.com) asks about a recipe for a good
spiced beer.
> While I don't have one,
> I judged a Indian-curry spiced brown ale at the World Homebrew
Contest
> in 1996.  It was probably the best spiced beer I have ever
evaluated.  I (much) later
> found out that it was brewed by Brian Rezac.
> The beer went all the way to the "Jim Koch" round (where it
didn't stand
> a chance because there was no way he was going to market
something that unique.)
>
> So out with it, Brian.  Send Marc the recipe!

 ...and David Johnson <dmjalj at inwave.com> wrote:
> My comment would be that we could request that the recipe
should be shared
> with all of us especially with that kind of praise having been
heaped on
> it. Although I may never brew a curry beer, I am interested in
how Brian
> might have used his spices. In fact, I am interested in
learning how to
> used spices better and read posts on this subject closely here
and on the
> Mead Lovers Digest.

Wow!  Thanks George, for such praise.  I'm always happy to share
recipes.  Actually, I think I may have shared this one with some
of you already during the thread on Anchor's 1997 Our Special
Ale.  I think that there is a strong resemblance albeit not an
exact duplicate.

As my brother-in-beer, Mike Bardallis, pointed out, it is in
Amahl Turczyn's book, A Year of Beer, (It's the last recipe.),
but here are some better directions for brewing this recipe.

First of all, the recipe is based on an Indian spiced tea called
"Chai", which is a combination of black tea, six spices, honey
and milk.  They usually serve it at yuppie-granola coffee shops,
very similar to those found in Boulder, Colorado.  (Curiosity
caused me to break from my coffee routine one day and try the
tea.)

What struck me is that all the spices blended into one very
pleasant taste and that's what I wanted to emulate.  Obviously, I
had to omit the milk.  I thought the black tea would leave too
much tannic acid bite so I added some roasted barley to emulate
the tea.  I choose not to use honey because I didn't want to
lighten the body and I wanted the beer to remain "sweet" from the
malt.

Adding the spices was the tricky part.  I first added them
directly to the wort, but the extraction was low due to the
viscosity of the wort itself.  (It wasn't spicy enough.)  I also
tried "dry spicing" in the primary, but each spice flavor
separated to where you could taste them all individually.  (It
was interesting, but no what I wanted.)  So what I came up with
is first making a "tea" of the spices, then adding that to the
wort.  This worked very well and I would recommend this procedure
when you want one complex flavor from your spices.

(Sorry about the long introduction.  It just nice to be talking
about brewing.  Thanks.)  Anyway, here's the recipe.

Chai Beer (aka India Chai Ale)
 - brian rezac
- ------------------------------------------
8 lbs. Munton & Fison light malt extract
1 lb. English crystal malt (55 L)
8 oz. Belgian Munich malt
4 oz. Belgian CaraPils malt
4 oz. Briess chocolate malt
4 oz. Briess roasted barley

2 oz. Cascade, 4.9% AA (70 min)
3/4 oz. Saaz, 3.0% AA (15 min)
1/2 oz. Saaz, 3.0% AA (2 min)

1 teaspoon Irish moss (15 min)
1 teaspoon Burton salts (optional)

Wyeast #1007 - German ale yeast

Naturally carbonate, bottle condition.

Spices
- ---------------
120 Cardamom pods, (cracked slightly - just enough to open the
pods)
11 teaspoons Cinnamon chips
11 teaspoons whole Coriander
5 1/2 teaspoons whole Cloves
5 1/2 teaspoons whole black Peppercorns
11 inches fresh, peeled, sliced Ginger root (or 5 teaspoons dried
ginger chips)

Adding Spices
- ---------------------
In a separate pot, boil all spices in approximately 1 quart of
water for 20 minutes.  (You should have the spices boiling about
the same time as you start the wort boiling.)
After 20 minutes of a nice rolling boil, shut off heat, cover and
leave spices sit in water for another 20 minutes.
At 20 minutes left to the wort boil, add spice tea through a
strainer directly into wort.


A few months after I came up with this recipe, my daughter,
Caitlin, who was seven at the time, came to me with a whole
advertising campaign of four different ads that she had drawn in
crayon.  The theme or tag-line in all the ads was, "Chai Beer.
It's a good beverage."

Enjoy!

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
brian at aob.org        http://beertown.org



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:10:57 -0600
From: Tom Wolf <wolfhrt at ibm.net>
Subject: Dehumidifier

I thought I was the only one goofy enough to do something like that!

I did what Forrest Duddles recommended in answer to Peter Calinski's
question about converting a de-humidifier.

I took the combination top and sides panel off the humidifier. Took the
clamps off the aluminum evaporator and bent it's entry and exit pipes so
that it was sticking out to the side of the humidifier body.  Then I
drilled a large hole in the removed cover in the correct side at the
height where the evaporator pipes were now re-positioned.  Then I sliced
the cover from the bottom up to the new hole so that it could be put
back on with the evaporator on the outside.  The cover was bent to
expand the slit and put back on. 

When this was done I had a normal looking dehumidifier with a cooling
coil protruding from a hole in the side and an ugly slice below it in
the side.

The first lager was made by strapping the coil to the carboy and
wrapping with insulation.  A home made thermostat (Im an EE) took care
of the temperature control.  I made a great lager beer.

Then I got fancy.  I got a large green plastic storage bin and bent the
coil down so that it would be in the bin.  The carboy and temperature
probe went into the bin along with some water. The bin cover was cut to
fit over the carboy. Made one more lager.

That was the end. The local water ate a pinhole in the aluminum of the
condenser. 

Now I use a chest freezer and a beer store thermostat.  Total cost about
$300, best beermaking investment I have made!  Cold keg beer, clear beer
and lager beer!



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:47:13 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: World's Greatest Beer

By popular demand and as promised, I have put together a web page
on the World's Greatest Brewery.

I need to do a better job on some of the photos and the links may
be a bit screwed up and there is no link to this page yet but here
it is in all it's glory.....

      http://user.mc.net/arf/wgb.htm

Have fun....

js



- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........  http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......  http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:18:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Re: Guinness Nitrogen Bubbler

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, ALAN KEITH MEEKER wrote:

> We were discussing the little nitrogen producing devices found in cans of
> draft Guinness stout at linch yesterday. Does anyone know how these
> devices actually work? 
> 


Go to the Guinness web page, they explain it there.  Basically the only
thing in there is BEER.  It just has a small hole in the device and it has
the *same* pressure in it as the whole can does.

When you pop the top on the can, that pressure is release in the device by
shooting beer through the small hole, thus foaming the whole can.

_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:26:22 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject:  Dehumidifier

In response to my query about using a dehumidifier as a fermentation
chiller, Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo replied:

Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:36:02 -0400
From: fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu
Subject: Dehumidifier

Greetings folks,

 Peter Calinski asked for help in using a dehumidifier as a cooling 
source for his fridge.

 Dehumidifiers are "high temperature" refrigeration units, much like 
a window air conditioner. The evaporator will only cool to 35 degF or 
so, which  is great for a dehumidifier or perhaps a fermentation 
chiller, but lower temperatures for lagering may be difficult to 
achieve.

	Pete replies:  The name plate says use above 65 F. but when I did what 
you outline below (I had already tried this), the evaporator ices over. 
That indicates it can reach very low temps. and I need a better way 	to
"get the cold out" of the evaporator. 

 Many dehumidifier evaporators are simply loops of a very soft 
aluminum tubing held vertically by a few supports. If yours is made 
this way you may be able to remove the supports and gently fold the 
evaporator outward until extends horizontally from the dehumidifier. 
Do this very carefully and get it right the first time - the tubing will 
work harden very quickly and get brittle if you try to rebend it.

 The dehumidifier may now be attached to the side of a fermentation 
chamber or other cold box so that the evaporator extends through 
the chamber wall. Mount the evaporator high in the chamber to take 
advantage of natural convective currents which will help even the 
temperature throughout the chamber.

	Pete replies: As I said above, the natural circulation is insufficient for
	the area of the evaporator.  It ices up.

 I have not heard from anybody who has tried this. Since a 
dehumidifier has a relatively large compressor, the chiller will tend to 
be an energy "hog". If I were to build something for my own use, I 

	Pete Replies:  The name plate says 4.5 Amps.  Phase factor 0 for about 
540 watts.  I guess it is high depending of course on the duty cycle.


would look for more efficient cooling source. Please let us know how 
the project turns out.
Hope this helps!

	Pete Replies:  I sure will thanks for the suggestions.  I am going to
experiment with a variation of another post to HBD using water.  I believe
I can flex the evaporator as you suggest but hang it over the edge of a
laundry tub.  Put the fermenter in the tub and fill (the tub) with water. 
I might be able to control temp overshoot by positioning the temp sensor
wrt the evaporator.

If it works, I'll get a cheep laundry tub (Home Despot $17-$18), insulate
it and see how it works.   It may even hold 2 fermenter.

I am a little concerned about reactions or electrolysis of the Al, Cu, in
the evaporator and minerals in the water.  Can anybody help in this area?


TIA 
Pete Calinski

PCalinski at iname.com 


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Date: 19 Jun 1998 08:44:21 -0400
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: Stiring it up


I don't stir the beer with a racking cane when priming.  I add the priming
sugar solution to the bottling bucket first and then siphon the beer on top
of it. Use a siphoning hose that is a little longer and wrap it a quarter to
halfway around the bottom  of the bucket.  When the beer comes through, it
will whirlpool and stir itself. I myself have never had any problems with this
method.

RiVeR DoG bReWeRy


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:22:36 -0400
From: "Henckler, Andrew" <ahenckler at findsvp.com>
Subject: mulberries

Hi everyone.  John Varady asks:

"AlK gives info on different berries and I was wondering if any one has
info
on mulberries. I have a tree in the yard that is drooping with ripe
fruit
and it is all I can do to keep up with the harvesting. So far I have
collected a gallon of berries over 3 days and expect to get another
gallon
or two over the next couple of weeks.

What is the sugar content of the fruit and what should I make with it?
Currently I plan on juicing the berries and boosting the gravity of the
juice to about 1090 with honey and fermenting. Does anyone have any
tried
and true uses or recipes for mulberries? Lacking a press, what is the
best
way for me to extract the juice?"

I can't comment on the sugar content of the fruit or on pressing
procedure.  However, I suggest that you use the mulberries in beer
(shocking thought!).  I have made mulberry beer in the past and I can
saw that they are wonderful.  My best experience was with a ligh
american wheat style with the berries added to secondary.  A word of
advice:  mulberries have a very delicate flavor, even fainter than
blueberries, in my experience.  You will need to use a LOT of berries.
My american wheat was only about 1.045 OG and I used 13 (!) pounds of
mulberries for the 5 gal batch.  The fruit character was right on,
rather than overwhelming, and the beer to first place in the fruit beer
category of a medium sized competition.

Hope this helps!


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:33:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Citrus Notes

Here in Vermont we stack our mixed blessings on one platter - low
population, winter, beautiful scenery, high taxes, winter, and great beer.

My favorite local offerings are:

	1) anything from Greg Noonan's Vermont Pub & Brewery
	   (his '7 Barrel Brewery' is just over the border in NH)
	2) Otter Creek's 'Stovepipe Porter'
	3) Magic Hat's 'Eye of Darkness' stout
	4) Mountain Brewers' 'Long Trail IPA'
	
It is the latter that prompts my question.  When I get a fresh Long
Trail IPA, I am overwhelmed by the citrusy character.  It's like
drinking a grapefruit beer.  I *LOVE* this stuff!

Now I know that the citrus probably comes from Cascade hops (maybe
with Centennial bittering?), but how do they get that amount of
grapefruit flavor.  I have tried late hopping with Cascade; using a
lot of cascade throughout the boil; and dryhopping with Cascade, and
I still can not get the grapefruit.  Is there some other strategy I
should pursue?  Does yeast have anything to do with it?  Hop oils?

How do I get the flavor without using grapefruit juice in the mash
tun?

Paul in Vermont
paulw at doc.state.vt.us

- -- 
According to government height/weight charts,
I'm seven and a half feet tall.


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:39:09 +0000
From: "Steven Braun" <visualdelights at powernet.net>
Subject: Tin coated copper vessel

I have a storage tank designed for distilled water manufactured of
tin-coated copper. I am hoping it would be useful as a Hot Liquor Tank. 
Does
anyone have any idea if tin is reactive with acidified sparge water?
 -
Steve
stev at powernet.net

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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:46:05 -0500
From: "Joel Plutchak" <joel at bolt.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Guinness Nitrogen Bubbler

ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> asks:
>We were discussing the little nitrogen producing devices found in cans
>of draft Guinness stout at linch yesterday. Does anyone know how these
>devices actually work? 

   Here's probably the most definitive answer.

- ----- forwarded from <http://www.ivo.se/guinness/patent.html> -----

Robert James <bobjames at delphi.com> posted: I was doing some patent search
work at the Washington library in Chicago the other day and I ran across no.
4,832,968, the U.S. patent for the Guinness in a can stout. 

The basics:

    Inventors: Alan J. Forage & William J. Byrne 
    Assignee: Arthur Guinness Son & Co., Ltd.

Process:

    - The gas pod in the can is blow molded with nitrogen (N). 
    - A laser zaps a hole in the pod. (they experimented with holes between
      0.2mm and 2.5mm finding that 0.61 mm as ideal) 
    - Pod is inserted in the bottom of can. 
    - Can is filled with CO2/N supersaturated stout. N is present at 1.5% v/v
      min up to 3.5% v/v. (FYI, vol/vol is the number of volumes of gas which
      are dissolved in a unit volume of beverage at 760mm of Hg & 15.6 oC)
      CO2 is present at between 0.8 and 1.5% v/v. 
    - During filling, foam rises to top of can. This clears the air. 
    - A charge of liquid N is added to the stout. 
    - Can is sealed. 
    - As liquid N boils off in can during pasteurisation (60 oC for 15-20
      min), top of can pressurizes and forces the stout into the pod, thus
      compressing the ambient pressure N in the pod. 
    - Equilibrium is reached at about 25 psi. 

As I interpret the patent, this is what happens when the can is opened:
The can quickly depressurizes to ambient pressure. The pod thus expels the
stout contained in it (about 10-15 ml) at high velocity through the orifice.
This causes high local strain of the stout at the plane of the orifice.
This strain exceeds the cohesive forces holding the gases in solution. As a
result, the N/CO2 is liberated from the stout at the plane of the orifice.
The millions of tiny N/CO2 bubbles then become the foam head. So contrary
to my initial belief, while some of the N gas in the pod escapes directly
into the stout, it is actually the "ripping apart" of the stout as it exits
the pod which produces the bubbles, hence the creamy head.

- ----- end forwarded text -----


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:41:16 -0400
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject:  my 1/2 barrel cooker, comments

Apparently-To: homebrew at brew.oeonline.com

Greetings all! Summer is here and I love brewing out of doors! (except for
the darn bees trying to dive bomb my wort!)

Several months ago I went down the path of building a garage system based
on a converted 1/2 barrel (legally obtained) and wanted to share a few of
my discoveries with the home brew community. 

I started by cutting a  hole in the top that would fit the lid from my
5-gallon brew pot, I don't use the lid during brewing but I do use it
during cooling (to avoid forgien matter from falling into the wort,
not a problem during the boil since the steam creates a generally positive
pressure in the pot) and it helps keep sawdust out of the pot when not in
use as the brewery is also my wood shop.

I also installed 4 3/4" SS-female pipe couplers in the keg, 2 as low as
possible on opposite sides for drains (in retrospect the second drain hole
was not needed) and two more located about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom
and 1/3 of the way down from the top.  These second fittings allowed the
installation of an integrated cooling coil formed to fit around the inside
of the kettle.  My cooling coil is constructed from 1/2" copper tubing and
is about 25' in length, right-angle compression fittings on the inside allow
the coil to run about 1"-2" from the wall of the keg leaving plenty of space
in the center for stirring.  On the outside the cooling coil fittings have
standard garden hose adapters with a quick disconnect for ease of use.  In
use this system has performed very well allowing a ten gallon batch to be 
dropped to <80^F in under 20 minutes (using well water at a fairly strong 
flow rate and stirring the wort occassionally).  

The final part of the system is my bottom drain, I have a 1/2" SS ball valve
on the outside and a 16" length of 1/2" copper tubing on the inside.  My
drain pickup tube has about 150 holes drilled in the bottom 1/3 of the tubes
diameter and is bent to roughly the shape of a question mark (?) with the 
far end crimped closed. The tubing was also formed to allow the curved part
to lay close to the center and bottom of the kettle.  I started with .050"
holes in the the tube but encountered serious clogging problems on my first
two batches, next I enlarged the holes to .068" (about 1/16") but still
encounted a very slow drain which required frequent stirring and scraping of
the tube with my stirring paddle.  Recently I enlarged the holes again to
 .104" and on Wednesday took a day off work and brewed two batches, one a
wheat beer and the other a brown ale, both drained cleanly without a hitch! 
(I should note that I use a hop bag for the bittering hops but use plug or 
whole leaf hops loose for the flavor/aroma late addittion and end of boil
hops, I also use irish moss, just for the record).  My system leaves about
1 quart of liquid plus all the hops and spooge in the bottom of the kettle.

I hope this description helps those on the same path or those thinking of
building this type of system, I am very pleased with the results and welcome
questions and comments.

- -----

On another note, Thanks to Jay Spies for his hint of the month on making
a BB weighted snake to keep his Phils Phloater in place.  That type of post
is one of the many fine things about this digest! 

- -----

The post on the new brew-puppy that apparently has good tastes really got
me, I laughed out loud! 

- -----

Hope you don't mind if I talked about brewing here for a bit.
Maybe a second digest should be started for the "serious topics", it could
be called the SMD, Smashem Bashem Digest, just a joke folks don't go
ballistic.

Chris Cooper , Commerce Michigan    --> Pine Haven Brewery <--
Chris_Cooper at hp.com                 --> aka. Deb's Kitchen <--
          (about 15 miles North of the HBD server) 



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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:44:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: attitudes, Guiness N2 widget and syringe trick

I've sent Paul Niebergall a long reply about his second "attitudes" post.
The gist is that I honestly don't get what he's so worked up over, but I'm
willing to try to understand, since he's now trying to actually explain it
instead of just being sarcastic and insulting.  If you care, email me for
a copy.

I will quote one paragraph of my text:

  When you just say "lighten up" or "get less pompous,"  all this really
  communicates is "change your personality, I don't like it." The only sane
  response to this is "screw you."  Anything else accepts your right to
  judge my personality.

In case you were wondering why some of us get so pissed about this.

Abusive posts happen.  I have calmly pointed out to people that a message
could be taken badly.  It seldom works.  They generally reply "that's not
what I said" because it's not what they MEANT to say, and then keep doing
it.  So I blast back.  It's less pleasant, but it's more reliable, more
honest, and better stress relief.  Sometimes the person really meant no
harm, apologizes, and actual communication follows.  Sometimes not.

 - - - - - - - - - -
The queue shows two replies already, so I assume the Guiness widget
has been explained.

In case nobody mentions it this time:
  You can get the same effect with a syringe.  Pour a beer into a glass,
  suck a few CCs of it into the syringe, then squirt it firmly back into
  the glass.  Be ready for a lot of foam.

And, by the way, you should refer to it as cans of "Guiness Pub Draft"
brand stout, not as cans of Guiness draft stout.  If it were draft, it
wouldn't be in cans.  (I wouldn't want you to not consider me pompous.)

  :-)     <-- smiley added for the humor impaired

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:56:45 -0500
From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner)
Subject: separate mash and lauter tuns

     There has been some recent discussion on using separate mash and 
     lauter tuns.  I happen to use a Gott cooler as a combination 
     mash/lauter tun.  But I am curious as to how brewers move the mash 
     from the mash tun to the lauter tun.  Seems like a good opportunity 
     for hot side aeration is one is not careful.  Hand transfer seems 
     mighty tedious.  Anybody care to describe their technique?
     
     Cheers!
     
     Lou - Austin, TX


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:49:36 -0700
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: Pundit anti-bashing

Boy, I hate to get in the middle of these political/personal
discussions, but I felt a contrary opinion from a relative
newbie needs to be expressed.

Sorry guys.  I really like seeing info from the "Pundits". 
When one of the Georges, or especially Al K. shows up, I read
and re-read the posts.  Really useful stuff here.  And I don't
recall Al K. ever being abusive to those of us who use 'less-
than-optimum' techniques.  In fact, both Al K. and George
dePiro have admitted to occasionally breaking some of the
rules.  Lay off these guys, or they may quit posting.  Then
HBD would be ruled by mediocrity.

<political mode off - back to brewing>

Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:39:07 -0500
From: Andrew Ager <andrew-ager at nwu.edu>
Subject: Lactable Fermentables?

Brewers,

This rather bizarre phrase has come up in recent days in a few other forums
(rec.crafts.brewing, and rec.food.drink.beer), and I was wondering if
anyone knew if this term was a) for real, b) obscure jargon c) crap, or d)
I missed that part of my brewing library.

Some examples of usage:  "...and the beer has an excess of lactable
fermentables."  I believe this referred to Rodenbach Grand Cru.

"...fruit like rasperries contribute a lactable note (acidity) to beer."

Lurking thanks,

Andy Ager
Hair of the Cat Brewery,  Chicago, IL
Beer Reviewer at The Virtual Beer Garden, http://www.virtualbeer.com
Home Pages:  http://pubweb.nwu.edu/~ada775




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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:23:57 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: All That's Pu does not glitter?

"Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se> says:

"I looked there, but found nothing under any "World's Greatest Brewery"
titleage....

It's there now  http://user.mc.net/arf/wgb.htm

"If these people are comparing with the exported Urquell, I don't find
this so difficult to believe.....

You sure take all the fun out of life.  I never could understand
what was so great about PU but I have never tasted the real thing
and only had the export to compare.  I do believe the keg stuff
is/was better than the bottles which I find pretty boring.

" I don't much care for the exported Urquell myself....

I see I also need to correct the spelling on the web page.

"I might just add, that I am guessing by your comments, that when I was
referring to the demise of a Bohemian brewery, that you and others might
think I was referring to Plzen..... I wasn't....

I did.

"(bring up violin volume to pianissimo,now)

Bring it up to very soft?  Bit of a conflict there maestro.

js

- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
                        Beer Stuff.........  http://ays.net/jsp
                        Astronomy.......  http://user.mc.net/arf
             ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday




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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 15:52:34 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: stuck stout

I brewed a stout recently that was mashed at about 153F for over an hour, had an
OG of 1.062, temp was about 63F, was well oxygenated with O2 through a SS stone,
and was pitched with a large starter.  I made the mistake of trying to ferment
almost five gallons in a five gallon carboy and had a lot blow out.  I don't
know why I didn't use my 6.5 gallon carboy.  Anyway, a week later there was no
apparent activity in the fermenter and there was a thick layer of yeast on the
bottom.  To my surprise the SG was 1.022.  I shook the carboy up several times
and raised the temp in the fermentation fridge to about 66F but did not see any
more activity.  I can't figure out why it stopped at 1.022.  I lost over two
quarts to blowoff.  Could enough active yeast been lost to cause the high FG?
There appeared to be plenty of yeast on the bottom but I could not get it kicked
off again.  The yeast was Wyeast Irish Ale, by the way.
Does anyone have any thoughts on why this brew finished at such a high gravity?
The recipe was 80% pale ale, 10% flaked barley, and 10% roasted barley.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:08:45 -0400
From: Jonathan Edwards <jdedward at us.ibm.com>
Subject: need help with belgian dubbel recipe and mashing pils

hey now,

i've recently discovered belgian bier and am completely hooked. i'm going to do
a dubbel sometime soon....perhaps this weekend.   This is an 11 gallon All
Grain batch...named St. Katherine Anne Dubbel in honor of the birth of my
cousin's daughter last week.

17lb Begian Pils (De-wolf)
  2lb Belgian Biscuit
1.5lb Belgian Aromatic
 1lb Belgian Carimunich
 .75  Belgian Special B
1lb Dark Belgian Candi Sugar
1lb Amber Belgian Candi Sugar

i'm basing this on a 70% extraction efficiency. og 1.060 and ibus of 21. i'm
okay on the hop bill but  i'm  wondering if the malt bill is okay for a dubbel.
it's a new style to me and i'm not wanting to overdo/underdo anything.

thanks,

jonathan


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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:44:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mark Garthwaite <mgarth at primate.wisc.edu>
Subject: Bottling Yeast


	I'm wondering if there is any point to adding a conditioning yeast
(a strain different from the primary strain) prior to bottling for
enhancing the flavor profile?  For example, a local brewery, (New Glarus
Brewing Co.) has a nice dunkelweiss that I think has a bottling strain
added to it.  I'm wondering whether growing up the strain from the New
Glarus bottle and pitching that into my homebrewed weiss before I bottle  
would be worthwhile.  If so, how much yeast do I toss into a 5 gallon
batch?  Should I throw it in when I prime or sometime during the secondary
fermentation?

 -Mark Garthwaite
 Madison, WI		(See you at the Great Taste of the Midwest Aug 8!)
  



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---