---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Kettle outflow without welding (Fred Johnson)
  Re: The Gecko Sump Report (Mat Farrington)
  mulberries (Dick Dunn)
  Homemade buffer solutions? (Dave Williams)
  Keg Storage ("LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7")
  ASBC Color ("A. J. deLange")
  Wort Chiller Construction (Richard Parker)
  cola flavors ("Joe Shope")
  Skunking & Bitching ("Matthew J. Harper")
  Re: Citrus Notes (Jeff Renner)
  Respiration and the Crabtree Effect (Al Korzonas)
  sugars; big systems; mash warmer; spicy posts; mash vs lauter tuns; sax & violins (Samuel Mize)
  Carry-On Homebrew ("Robert D. Dittmar")
  Public replies and fearful newcomers (Samuel Mize)
  I'm no William Safire, but... ("David Kerr")
  Fearful lurkers, please help me (Samuel Mize)
  Rebel without a Cause / Belgian Strong Ales (Marc.Arseneau)
  Re. separate mash and lauter tuns (Jim Layton)
  Syringe - pocket beer engine (Samuel Mize)
  Re: Citrus Notes ("Tkach, Christopher")
  pectase should have been pectinase (Al Korzonas)
  Colour calculations (Al Korzonas)
  Welcome to new posters! (Samuel Mize)
  RobberMaid Cooler/Mash Tun (RobertS735)
  dark candi sugar ("Bayard W. Wenzel")
  Open Sea Fermenting ("Cloutier, Steve")
  RIMS/bruheat mashtun (Lostboy676)


BUZZ's Buzz-Off competition is June 27-28. Information is available at
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rpmattie at voicenet.com. 


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 23:15:32 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Kettle outflow without welding

Several days ago Bret Morrow asked:

  Has anyone modified
  their keg using off the shelf fittings?

I don't believe anyone posted to Bret's question about how to fit a kettle
with a draining
system without welding.  I recently have done this and it found that it
works well.  At first I was advised to use a "bulkhead" fitting to go
through the wall of the kettle, but I found that these were quite
expensive.  I was able to find for a small price ( I don't remember the
cost) a brass drain fitting at a local hardware store that is about one
inch in diameter.  It has a flanged end and a thin nut with a rubber
washer that secures it to the wall.  It is threaded on the inside and the
outside to accomodate other brass fittings.  I used a brass adaptor to
step down the diatmeter to that of my ball valve (also brass).  I will be
looking for a thicker nut since the one provided is too thin to get a good
grip on it for easier assembly.I used the fitting without a drain tube to
the bottom of the kettle for several brews and just tilted the keg at the
end of the draining session to get the last of the wort.  I forgot to
mention that I also wired a copper scrub pad to the inside of the fitting
to strain off hops and break material.

This did a fair job but I much improved the drain by attacing a piece of
copper tubing to the inside of the drain fitting with a standard brass
compression fitting and bending the copper tubing to sit on the bottom of
the kettle.  The hardest part was bending the copper tubing and getting
the length cut to sit just above the bottom of the kettle.  The copper
scrub pad is still used and just sits on the bottom of the kettle held in
place by the copper tubing whose outlet is just above the bottom of the
kettle.  I have only used this once now but the wort came out clearer than
I have ever been able to achieve with the side drain or with a racking
cane.

All parts were deleaded with the peroxide/vinegar treatment.

All parts were very common fittings which you could vary depending on the
diameters you prefer.  The one exception could be the drain fitting which
was with the hot water heater stuff.  I obtained everything at my local
REAL hardware store where the people are really willing to help someone
like me who knows little to nothing about plumbing (as I'm sure you can
tell by now) , especially with what the names of parts are.  Many times
the folks at the big warehouse type places aren't much help to someone
ignorant about these sorts of things.

 All the parts are essentially permanently joined together except for the
nut that holds the
whole thing tight against the wall of the kettle (and of course the copper
srub pad.  Easy
assembly and can be taken off the kettle for easy cleanup.

Important:  Don't cut the whole in the side of the kettle on the welded
seam.  I haven't done this but I understand that the seam can be damaged
if you do.  I had a welder do this for me.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina

- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina





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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:17:35 +0930
From: Mat Farrington <mat at holon.net>
Subject: Re: The Gecko Sump Report

> Orlando Wyndham, through their subsidiary company Two Dogs Lemonade
> launched "Rhubarb Rhubarb", a new alcopop, in the southern states of
> Australia...

Rhubard rhubarb has been around for a while.  It came out in late 1996. 
Pernod Ricard (through their Australian subsidiary Orlando Wynham)
bought into Two Dogs in April 1997, i.e., AFTER the
launch of Rhubarb Rhubard in the "southern states" of Australia.

> (Good grief! they must have been influenced by the recent HBD thread).

Not unless the "recent thread" started two years ago.  :-)


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Date: 22 Jun 98 00:13:38 MDT (Mon)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: mulberries

(Sorry for indirect context here.)

> AlK gives info on different berries and I was wondering if any one has info
> on mulberries. I have a tree in the yard that is drooping with ripe fruit
> and it is all I can do to keep up with the harvesting. So far I have
> collected a gallon of berries over 3 days and expect to get another gallon
> or two over the next couple of weeks.
> 
> What is the sugar content of the fruit and what should I make with it?

Historically speaking, you probably should make a mead, as this seems to be
what folks must have done with mulberries.  I come at this as follows:
  * Mead gives you a more delicate background so that you don't overwhelm
    delicate fruits.
  * People make "fruit mead" (melomel, meaning honey+fruit fermented to-
    gether) using almost any fruit you can imagine.
  * A few particular fruits make melomels which have specific names--
    rather than just "melomel" there's a name for that fruit fermented with
    honey.  Among them: pyment (honey+grape), cyser (honey+apple), and
    morat (honey+mulberry).  [Exercise for the student:  guess what rhodo-
    mel is.]
So, the fact that there's a specific name assigned to a mulberry-mead says
that this is a combination that works.

Besides, this will give you a chance to offer one to your friends and say,
"Here, would you like to try a bit of morat?"  Guaranteed conversation-
starter.

As for sugar content, there's really only two good ways to get at it, given
the vagaries of local bushes and conditions:
  * Extract juice:  Freeze the berries (to break down the fruit), then thaw
    and press.  Use a nylon mesh bag on the press.  Measure SG with a
    hydrometer.
  * Ferment and test:  Make up a predictable recipe, either a melomel as
    above or a fruit wine, using carefully measured amount of fruit.  Cal-
    culate the expected SG without the fruit, measure weight of fruit
    before and measure remaining pulp after, ferment out, and use vinometer
    (?or ebulliometer?) to get final alcohol.  This is a pain to do and it
    has a lot of loose variables, as you'll know if you've ever tried to
    get an accurate reading from a vinometer.
But presumably you're only interested in ballpark numbers--you don't care
if the effective sugar content is 1.050 or 1.055--so the first method is
pretty good and a lot easier.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
   ...Mr. Natural says, "Use the right tool for the job."


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:26:16 -0400
From: rdavis at gator.net (Dave Williams)
Subject: Homemade buffer solutions?

Greetings,

I recieved a pH meter for Father's day and I would like to use it this
Saturday.  My problem is that it didn't come with any buffer solutions to
calibrate it and my HB store doesn't stock any.  Is it possible to make
reasonably reliable buffer solutions of known pH from readily available
substances?  Failing that, what type of supplier is likely to sell buffer
solutions?  Any help will be greatly appreciated and private email is welcome.

Thanks, 
Dave Williams
Newberry, Florida



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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:44:34 -0400
From: "LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7" <Erik.Larson at MS01.DO.treas.sprint.com>
Subject: Keg Storage

Date:  06/22/1998  09:31 am  (Monday)  
From:  C. Erik Larson
To:  EX.MAIL."post@hbd.org"
Subject:  Keg Storage

I have 10 gallons of Dopplebock (of which I am very proud) in two
Cornelius kegs, sitting at 40F in my beer 'fridge, which is located in my
hot humid garage.  The beer has been lagering in the fridge since mid
April.

I was wondering as to what the expected effects on my Dopplebock
would be if I were to move the kegs from the 40F 'fridge to my 70-75F
basement, and leave them there unitl the fall?

To me, the hot humid Maryland summer just isn't the time to quaff a 10%
abv,  malty, dark beer.  I want to free up space in the beer 'fridge for a
couple of kegs of Weizen.

Thanks,
Erik Larson
(erik.larson at treas.sprint.com)


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:21:07 -0500
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: ASBC Color

The ASBC procedure calls for simply measuring the absorbance at 420 nm
(or is it 430 - relying on memory here), referring to a half inch cell
and converting to dB i.e. multiplying the absorbance by 10. In addition,
the measurement is considered valid only if the absorbance at 730 nm (or
is it 720?) is less than 0.039 times the absorbance at the shorter
wavelength. This insures that the beer being measured is clear enough
that the attenuation is due to absorption and not scattering by yeast,
protein globs, etc.

I just grabbed the formulas I posted from BHS&Y because it was the
closest book to hand and I admit I didn't look at what I was copying
down. When I saw Al's post the "rules of thumb" (for the purposes of the
BJCP exam at least) came immediately to mind:  EBC is approximately
twice SRM and SRM is approximately equal to Lovibond.

It is important to note that the Lovibond method originally used bottles
(with, as I recall, calibrated iodine solutions) and subsequently
glasses (i.e. pieces of colored glass) in a visual comparator. The
modern methods (ASBC, EBC) use spectrophotometry thus removing the
subjective aspect.



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:51:04 +0100
From: Richard Parker <rparker at ims.ltd.uk>
Subject: Wort Chiller Construction

Hi all,

A friend of mine (no names, no pack drill) works for a large pump
manufacturer, and being a (lapsed) fellow home brewer was anxious to
help when I decided to build a counterflow wort chiller. What he's come
up with is probably overkill, it's 6 x 1 foot lengths of .5 inch finned
copper tubing. It's rather hard to describe, so the pictures (gotta
borrow the camera at lunch time) are appearing on my web site at
http://members.tripod.com/~richparker/homebrew/wortchill.htm shortly.

The finning(?) is folded fine copper wire, 40 turns on each length and
50 folds per turn. My maths isn't what it used to be but I make that
about 160' of wire per length!!!

So, given that some VERY professional cooling tubes have fallen into my
lap I don't want to screw this up, can you all help with design ideas?

Question 1. In series or in parallel? IE do I pass the wort through all
of the lengths of tube one after another, or let it run through a
length, oh this is really hard to describe... I could fit all the tubes
together using .5 inch tubing and fittings to give a single 6'+ length
of tube and pass the hot wort through it with a water jacket around it,
or I could have a reservoir at the top and the bottom and join the two
with 6 x 1' lengths of tubing, put the a water jacket around the tubes
and pass the wort through all 6 at once.

Now the first option (series) has it's problems. The piping is not a
standard plumbing size, it's a standard refrigerant size (the spec
sheets are on their way so I'll know exactly) and I'm wary about using
solder to fit them together, compression fittings?

The second option is more complex in that I'd need to get an engineer to
create the reservoirs and the rest of it from stainless. But it's
probably worth the cash for a proper job.

Thoughts?

Question 2. Safety and hygiene. I'd have to carefully wash out the
interior of the tubing I know, but with what? I don't want any oil etc.
or heavy metals. If it comes down to soldering/brazing this stuff what
do I (or the engineer) use?

Thanks for your time,
(Kowtows to the collective and leaves backwards banging forehead on
floor)

Rich

Richard Parker,  Brewing in York UK



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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:14:39 +0000
From: "Joe Shope" <jshope at bioserver.vsb.usu.edu>
Subject: cola flavors

Last fall I brewed an oatmeal stout that had distinct cola like 
flavors (Pepsi to be exact).  Since I had never brewed this recipe 
before I attributed the flavor to a procedural error or the flaked 
oats and barley.  This spring I brewed a sweet stout that also had 
strong cola flavors.  I have brewed this recipe several times before 
without the cola flavor.  

I have heard that cardamon can produce a cola flavor, but I did not 
use any.  I have examined the beer under a scope and don't see any 
bacteria in it.  I did use chocolate malt given to me by a friend who 
was moving away in both batches.  Is it possible that the chocolate 
malt contributed the off flavor due to being old or mishandled?  Is 
there a procedural error that can produce these flavors?

Joe Shope
Head Brewer/Bottlewasher
Apostate Brewing Co.
Crash Valley, UT


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:37:34 -0400
From: "Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com>
Subject: Skunking & Bitching


Scott Abene asks:

"When exactly can a beer skunk? Directly after the boil
is chilled or only after fermentation has taken place?"

This will be a tad under-technical...

'Skunking' results from a reaction between light (wavelength I don't
recall) and the hops in the beer.  As has been discussed much in the
past brown glass prevents the wavelength in question far better than
green glass (which is only slightly better than clear it turns out.)

Skunking can happen anytime after the boil, but doesn't tend do so 
until the beer is a finished product (aka bottled or poured into a
glass) because of the amount of light the product encounters
during that time period.  Further, skunkiness *does* subside if the 
light is removed.  

Tested it myself, you can too:

Take a couple of beers, leave them in the sun for a while on a
hot summer day.  For diversity use one closed bottle, on opened
bottle and a couple of glasses.

I found stuff skunked after about 15 minutes.  I also found that
if I moved the glasses out of the sun the skunkiness subsided; both
to my nose & others.  Wasn't gone, just lessened.

As a result I keep my beer out of the light, always.  Fermenter gets
a nice college T-shirt to wear... :-)

Bitchin':
I'm invoking my right as a member to voice my opinion once: <grin>

I'm tired of the attitudes & bitchin going on.  Enough that I looked 
back through the last few weeks digest to find that by and large most
of the people bitchin most about others being arrogant or belittling 
others typically posted NO useful info; just shared their opinions about
how we should be pissed at Al K. and others.  

Why do these folks feel it is acceptable to take up bandwidth writing
about NOTHING while taking those who offer SOMETHING to task?

Boggles the mind!

At the very least *please* include something about botulism when
canning starter wort or ask if any good breweries can be found in
East Podunk...

 -Matth



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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:45:02 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Citrus Notes

Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us> sang paeans to Mountain Brewers' 'Long
Trail IPA':

>I am overwhelmed by the citrusy character.  It's like
>drinking a grapefruit beer.  I *LOVE* this stuff!
<snip>
>but how do they get that amount of grapefruit flavor.

Let me suggest something radical - ask the brewer.  You might get rebuffed,
but you just might get your answer.  I was pleasantly surprised when I got
pretty much all I asked for about Oberon (formerly Solsun) wheat beer at
Larry Bell's Kalamazoo Brewing Co.  Identify yourself as a homebrewer and
ask intelligent questions.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:57:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Respiration and the Crabtree Effect

I've gotten a number of emails asking about yeast respiration and
(from a completely different post, I believe) about the Crabtree
Effect.  Since these are related, I'll post a quite summary of
the two topics.

Saccharomyces display what is known as the "Crabtree Effect" which
causes the yeast to forego respiration and go straight to fermentation
even though there is oxygen present.  A glucose concentration of more
than 0.4% will cause the Crabtree Effect (other sugars also cause the
effect, but more sugar is required to induce it) so as you can see, since
wort has WAY more than 0.4% glucose (yes, even all-grain), under normal
brewing conditions, Saccharomyces will not respire.

Note also that "respiration" is *NOT* simply the uptake of oxygen.
Yeast will uptake oxygen for sterol and fatty acid synthesis, and
in fact it's important for good alcohol tolerance.  "Respiration" is
the use of oxygen for the metabolism of sugars.  Yeast *don't* use
the oxygen for sugar metabolism (under normal conditions, i.e. make
wort, pitch yeast), so they don't "respire."

Numerous authors have used the term "respiration" to simply mean
the uptake of oxygen, but this is not *technically* correct from a
biological point-of-view.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:19:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: sugars; big systems; mash warmer; spicy posts; mash vs lauter tuns; sax & violins

> From: "Jay Spies" <spiesjl at mda.state.md.us>
> Subject: candi sugar substitute

Also, along the sugar vein, does anyone know what I could substitute 
in a Trippel for clear candi sugar?

For the clear stuff, just use table sugar.  Candi sugar was invented as a
more-pure form when table sugar was not as refined as it is today.  (It
used to have atrocious table manners...)  Dark sugar is partly caramelized.
Check the HBD archives or the Brewery library for a discussion on doing
this at home.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> Subject: Really Really Big Batches and stuff

> I have recently started experimenting with large batch sizes. Say 30-40
> gallons at a time.

While I would't burn vermin over it -- that is, I don't personally give a
rat's ash -- you might consider whether you're posting/publishing data that
shows you're breaking US law.  The limit is 100 gallons per adult, 200 in a
household with more than one adult.

So if you have three adults, one must move to another house to get his/her
100 gallons per year.  Our heavy-handed social policies contribute to the
break-up of the extended family and the destruction of our social fabric.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: irajay at ix.netcom.com
> Subject: Re: Mashing Equipment

> I have discovered that if you put a pot of boiling 
> water into the igloo along with the mash, the mash maintains its 
> temperature for an hour and my extractions have been remarkably close 
> to what I have predicted.

Now that's a good, sensible thought.  I expect any kind of thermal mass,
like a hot rock, would work -- kind of like using a hot brick as a bed
warmer.  A pot of boiling water is convenient.  Excellent insight!

I'm glad Bill posted his comments about coolers and oven mashing, even
though both topics have been well-trodden in the past.  Something new
always comes up.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
> Subject: Spice Beer

> (Sorry about the long introduction.  It just nice to be talking
> about brewing.  Thanks.)

That's the one paragraph you didn't need.  The rest was interesting,
informative, and fun.  Thanks much for the long introduction!

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
> Subject:  my 1/2 barrel cooker, comments

> Several months ago I went down the path of building a garage system based
> on a converted 1/2 barrel (legally obtained) and wanted to share a few of
> my discoveries with the home brew community. 

Good post, I enjoyed it (and I'm not even wanting to make a large system).

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner)
> Subject: separate mash and lauter tuns

> I am curious as to how brewers move the mash
> from the mash tun to the lauter tun.  Seems like a good opportunity 
> for hot side aeration is one is not careful.  Hand transfer seems 
> mighty tedious.  Anybody care to describe their technique?

Dave Draper discussed these very issues on HBD, some time ago.  His summary
article is in the Brewery web site's library:
    http://brewery.org/brewery/library/HSA_DD95.html

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
> Subject: All That's Pu does not glitter?

> "(bring up violin volume to pianissimo,now)
> 
> Bring it up to very soft?  Bit of a conflict there maestro.

If he brought it up any louder he'd be wasting bandwidth.  :-)

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Multi-part MIME message: " ", " ", " " (hands waving)
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:21:35 -0500
From: "Robert D. Dittmar" <Robert.D.Dittmar at stls.frb.org>
Subject: Carry-On Homebrew

     I just wanted to drop a word of caution for the collective on passing 
     out homebrew to people traveling by air.
     
     This weekend I attended my brother's wedding, and gave away some brew 
     to relatives.  My mother and grandfather put the beer in their 
     carry-on luggage, and said beer was confiscated by the people who do 
     the baggage checks at the gate.
     
     In all fairness to the security people, I suppose that they thought 
     that it was vaguely possible that I had filled two unmarked 22 oz. 
     bottles with nitro-glycerin or hydrocyanic acid, capped them, and 
     given them to my relatives to carry aboard the plane.  Its their job 
     to be cautious when confronted by carry-on items whose contents are 
     less than transparent, so their reactions may be unpredictable in 
     response to spying a bottle of homebrew, especially an unlabeled one.
     
     I just thought I'd warn the collective and save someone future 
     disappointment.  If you, your friends, or relatives are taking some 
     homebrew home on a plane, pack it away in your luggage, not your 
     carry-on bag.
     
     Rob Dittmar
     St. Louis, MO


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:03:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: Public replies and fearful newcomers

Yet another non-brewing post, page down now.  This is about how HBD and
similar online forums work.  I'm using Paul Niebergall's post as a
springboard to express some thoughts of my own.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> >The fact of the matter is that while I was off in the hospital, 20 or
> >30 questions went unanswered.
> ...
> I as well as many others answered these questions via private e-mail.

Good.  However, that's invisible to the rest of us.  You might have dropped
the HBD a note saying "I sent N. Ewbie info about HSA" or whatever.

Some claim that public answers serve only the venal accrual of
vainglorious self-aggrandization.  (Is that pompous enough?  I'm trying
for varsity.)

I post replies publicly for five major reasons:

1. It makes it visible that the question got answered.  This may reduce
   excessively redundant replies, and it reassures others that questions
   DO get answered.

2. In forums like this, typically if one person asked a question, five or
   ten "lurkers" have the same question but have not yet asked it -- they
   benefit from reading the answer.  (The archives can be a great resource,
   but they can also be a forest when you need to see one tree.)

3. If I make a mistake in the answer, it will get corrected.  This has
   happened to me.  Embarassing as it was, I was glad the person got the
   right data and didn't go forward believing my mistake du jour.

4. It often stimulates discussion.  OK, this may be a tired retread like
   Dave-vs-Al-on-Cl*n*t*st (don't want to set off any reply bots :-).
   But, substantive discussions have often come from comments about basic
   procedures.  I learn from these.

5. It builds a sense of community.  Dave, Dave, George, George, and Al are
   personalities to me, not just names somewhere.  We interact in private
   to build friendships; we interact in public to build a community.

In short, I post replies in public because that's what we're supposed to
do -- that's how HBD is designed to work.

 - - - - - - - - - -
>... people with good opinions are being 
> driven off-line for fear of impending head bashing.

Before you say this again, please provide at least one example where a
new poster got "head bashed."  What are you talking about?

> How many times have you seen a post that begins:
> 
> *Gee, I*ve been lurking for a long time - I usually don*t post....*

Generally followed by a chorus of welcomes, invitations to keep posting,
and friendly answers.

> Or
> *Sorry if this is wasting bandwidth, but I have a question, please don*t 
> hurt me......*
> Or
> *With the permission of the gods of home brew, I come to you on my knees 
> to humbly ask my ignorant question.....*
> 
> Why is this happening?  It*s like people are scared to post to the HBD.

Gee, I guess the premise that they are using humor didn't occur to you.

And to directly answer your question: I've never seen ANYTHING that
abject or self-negating.  I personally think such comments are a waste
of bandwidth, but if it makes people more comfortable about posting for
the first time, OK.

If you know people who are fearful of posting, I assume you do everything
you can to encourage them.  Please let me know if there is some concrete
action I can take to encourage them.

Perhaps you could serve as an unofficial ombudsman -- or a helper, if
that's too pompous -- to encourage them to post to the HBD.  We DO want
new people to post.

We don't assault new people here unless they cop an "attitude" and
insult us.  Show me as many as one examples to the contrary.  (It's
your claim, you should show evidence.)

I've disagreed with (I think) all of our local "Ogres of Intimidation,"
without getting a flame or a sharp word.  I used a secret weapon: courtesy.
I'm not talking about grovelling, just the simple courtesy any human
deserves (for instance, not calling his legitimate but different opinion
"humbug" or "bunk").

There is a good way to make a forum like this into what you want it to be,
and that is by contributing (as you have done before), and encouraging
like-minded people to contribute.  If all those people who sent you
"me-too"s were strongly active, the folks you complain about would be lost
in the noise.

 - - - - - - - - - -
> Is bandwidth a commodity or something?

Yes.  HBD is limited to one 50K email per day.  This is an intentional
bandwidth limitation, which works in tandem with the "cancel" function.
The idea is that people will answer questions publicly, for the benefits
I listed above.  However, if you see several replies already in the queue,
you can cancel your reply and reduce redundant repetition.

In other online forums, "wasting bandwidth" refers to using the resources
of the forum for something outside the forum's stated purpose.  This
increases the resource usage (cost), and it makes it harder to sift through
and find the items of real interest.

It's also used sarcastically in the sense of "quit wasting air on this."

Best to all,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:19:37 -0400
From: "David Kerr" <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: I'm no William Safire, but...

Sam Mize regarding the endless tone and tenor debate:

"...I'm tired of nimrods telling us what jerks we are, then saying WE need
to
lighten up if we don't like it.  We've been having a good time here.  We're
light.  You're the one with the complaint.  Lighten up.

This is absolutely, positively my last post on this subject.  Unless
somebody pisses me off again."

Nimrod:

>From m-w.com:
1 : a descendant of Ham represented in Genesis as a mighty hunter and a king
of Shinar
2 not capitalized : HUNTER

Regarding name calling, grammar and vocabulary, I unintentionally slammed Al
K once for nit-picking (the tone that I had attempted to set was more of a
gentle chide, but the subject line came across as pretty insulting).  Two
weeks later, what I received from Al was a polite and helpful private
response to a pLambic question that I had erroneously posted to the HBD.  If
I had to take sides, I'd take his.

MPDKW (my page down key works).

Dave Kerr - Needham, MA
"Be good and you will be lonely" - Mark Twain





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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:21:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: Fearful lurkers, please help me

>... people with good opinions are being 
> driven off-line for fear of impending head bashing.

I am pleading with anyone who agrees with that comment.

I honestly don't understand this fear thing.  I'm not arguing against
your feelings.  I don't get it, so I can't see how to change it.

We don't want to discourage anyone.  But we can't accept, understand
or improve based on "I don't like you, and I won't explain."

What posts make you feel fearful or unwelcome?

If you don't want to post an answer, email me.  I promise I will not
argue with you, although I may ask further questions trying to
understand.  If I get a useful feel for this, I'll post a summary.

I need to understand specific problems.  "Pompous," "arrogant" and
"intimidating" are judgements in your head.  I want to understand what
causes you to make that judgement.  But I DON'T currently share your
judgement, so telling me "some posts are too pompous" is like telling
me they're "too granular."  I can imagine a dozen things you might
mean, and probably none matches your ideas.

Have there been posts to neophytes that were abusive?  Are you nervous
because people defend their positions strongly in advanced
discussions?  What is it?

As a forum, we want you to feel welcome.  I personally want to help.

Best to all,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:40:10 -0400
From: Marc.Arseneau at fluordaniel.com
Subject: Rebel without a Cause / Belgian Strong Ales

     I once read that the Irish don't know what they want, but are willing 
     to die for it.  Maybe that explains my involvement in CAMRA.  
     
     Anyway, I was wondering if the collective has an idea why commercial 
     beers are exempt from the laws requiring food items to list their 
     ingredients.  Or nutritional information.  I have seen some beers list 
     ingredients, but it seems to be a voluntary action, usually only taken 
     by beers that are made entirely from malt.
     
     ===============================================
     
     And the recent thread on Belgian strong ales has finally prodded me 
     into making one.  The Wyeast 1388 is on order (wasn't in stock for 
     some reason), but I still haven't settled on a recipe.  Any 
     suggestions?  I'm aiming more for a Trippel or a Duvel than a Double.
     
     I hope to substitute something else for the Belgian candi sugar, and 
     judging from the recent posts, table sugar is the leading substitute?? 
      Never thought I would see the day when I would be putting THAT into 
     an all-grain beer.
     
     Marc Arseneau
     Rothesay, New Brunswick  (that's in Canada, by the way)


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:47:15 -0500
From: Jim Layton <a0456830 at rlemail.dseg.ti.com>
Subject: Re. separate mash and lauter tuns

Lou Heavner asked to hear from someone that transfers the mash
from the mash tun to the lauter tun by hand. Here you go.

First, let me say that I'm flexible. When I'm working with pale ale
malt, I usually do a single temperature  mash in my insulated
(10 gallon Gott) lauter tun. It's quick, easy, and it works. 

With some styles, e.g.. wit, weiss, and all lagers, I prefer to do
multiple temperature mashes or decoction mashes.  I like to use
a separate, heatable mash tun for these because 1) you can end up 
with a very thin mash if using boiling water to raise temps, 
2)  I don't trust myself to hit the desired temp every time when 
adding a decoction back to the main mash. A heatable tun makes it 
easy to correct mistakes on the low side, and 3) I don't have a 
heatable lauter tun.

I transfer from my 8 gallon pot (mash tun) to my Gott (lauter tun)
using a 1 quart pyrex cup. I try to minimize splashing by lowering
the cup to the bottom of the lauter tun and gently pouring the mash
out. You can just slide it out of the cup after a few inches of mash
are in. It's no big deal for a 5 gallon batch, but I'd hate to do
this for a 50 gallon batch. 

As for aeration of the hot mash, well, I suppose it is a potential
problem. After all, I do try to minimize splashing during transfer
of the mash, so I worry about it just like you do. The bottom line 
is that I've made a few good beers like this. One of them is a 
Munich Helles I made using a single decoction mash which won 1st
place at two competitions this Spring and qualified for the MCAB.
It was 6 months old at the time. It had been shipped from Texas to
Florida during warm Spring weather using a commercial parcel delivery
service. If HSA was a problem in this beer, it wasn't a big problem.

We all make do with the equipment we have until we get better
equipment. I'd like to have a lauter tun like Al K's, and someday I
probably will. Even then I'll likely continue decoction mashing
on occasion, and that means I'll be scooping and transferring
hot mash.  In the grand scheme of home brewing, I'd rank careful mash
transfers as one of the lesser reasons for concern.

Jim Layton  (Howe, TX)


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:16:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: Syringe - pocket beer engine

Greetings,

I mentioned the trick of using a syringe to build up the head on
a glass of beer (suck up a few CCs and squirt back in, be ready for
lots of foam).  I should have mentioned that you want a syringe
WITHOUT a needle.  You can get these for oral medicines.  Jeff
Renner first posted this to HBD.

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:29:10 -0400
From: "Tkach, Christopher" <tkach at cabletron.com>
Subject: Re: Citrus Notes

Paul-

I'm sure that Longtrail doesn't do this, but I brewed an
Old Ale that had a strong grapefruit flavor to it when it
was young, and I attribute it to first wort hopping (FWH)
with Cascade.  I think (my notes are at home) I used
2 oz of Cascade FWH'd, and bittered with Centennial and
(gasp!) Chinook.   The beer had a strong grapefruit flavor
at bottling that (slowly) dissipated with age.  Try searching
the archives around October - December of last year for
'grapefruit' for more info, but you are right, I'm sure the
grapefruit flavor can be attributed to Centennial and/or
Cascade hops.

 - Chris
Dover, NH


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:42:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: pectase should have been pectinase

I goofed on the spelling in my earlier post...
"pectase" should have been "pectinase."

Just to be thorough: pectinase comes in two forms: dry and liquid.
The liquid form *must* be refrigerated and will spoil after a few
days at room temperature (just like Isinglass).

Al.

P.S.  Wasting bandwidth applies in two cases: 1) some people actually
pay per downloaded byte, and 2) only about 44K bytes make it into
every HBD, so posts that add nothing to the HBD cause worthwhile
posts to be delayed.


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:09:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Colour calculations

Graham writes:
>I do not have
>access to ASBC analysis methods, but looking at various spreadsheet
>thingies published in BT etc, it seems that American home brewers estimate
>beer colour from grain on a pounds-per-gallon basis.

I don't know what percentage of American homebrewers use this estimation,
but I'm sure that a large number don't (especially among HBDers).  George
and Laurie Fix addressed the nonlinearity of this estimation in an appendix
to their book Vienna, Oktoberfest, Maerzen.  Ray Daniels wrote a three-
part series of articles on beer colour in Brewing Techniques (and there
were a couple of subsequent Technical Correspondences, also in Brewing
Techniques, following that series).  These three authors pretty much
pounded it into our heads that a simple pounds-times-Lovibond-divided-
by-gallons will only work for the very pales beers.

As for the 1987 change to the conversions, I believe that I first saw
that in Ray Daniels' "Designing Great Beers" book.  I'll ask him about
it and report back if I learn anything of general interest.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:10:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: Welcome to new posters!

Greetings to all,

In HBD 2746 we heard from three new posters (or people who haven't posted
since 1 Jan 98): Tom Wolf, Andrew Ager, and Jonathan Edwards.  Thanks for
joining in!  We encourage everyone to post with ideas, info, questions or
brewing experiences.

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam - see http://www.cauce.org/


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:21:54 EDT
From: RobertS735 at aol.com
Subject: RobberMaid Cooler/Mash Tun

Friends/Scholars/Pugilists:
I have for some unknown reason, been attracted to the recent discussion on
places to purchase our beloved round rubbermaid/gott/igloo coolers/water
dispenser/mash tuns.

Happy to report today's purchase of 10 gallon Rubbermaid- for $17.99 plus tax,
at Houston area MacFrugal's (no affiliation). They appear to be authentic, in
original boxes, and still carry the 6-year warranty...
$17.99 seems like a good deal to me...

Now I can mash those ten pound 'o grain recipies...

Bob


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:35:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Bayard W. Wenzel" <biomorph at moloch.mse.tay.dec.com>
Subject: dark candi sugar

People have been discussing the nature of belgian candi sugar.

I"ve been interested in finding an alternative to the darker
candi sugars for some time, mainly because the going price for
the stuff in the states seems to be roughly $4/lb.

The first idea that entered my mind was caramelization- make peanut
brittle without the peanuts. the result was very tasty, but nowhere
near as dark as dark candi sugar, and with a powerful taste. I've
since read (in the HBD) that hardball caramel like this can add a 
nice, sweet note to yer belgian ales.

Since then, I found a most interesting substance in the 'World
Foods' section of the local grocery store (Star Market). It
was Green Mountain brand, Jamaican style, Burnt Sugar. The stuff
is black as tar, and about 3 or 4 Tbps. of it should give
5 gallons of belgian dubbel the right colour. The ingredients
are listed as water, invert sugar, and caramel colour, and the
'nutrition facts' section notes trace amounts of salt (likely
a byproduct of the inversion).

The flavour is faintly salty, but i don't think that, for the
amounts you'd end up using in beer, it'd be a problem. There's
also a nice, subtle note of caramel flavour, very reminiscent
of the flavour differences i've noted between light and dark
candi sugar.

yours in brewing,
bayard






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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:45:09 -0500
From: "Cloutier, Steve" <Steve_Cloutier at ATK.COM>
Subject: Open Sea Fermenting

Hi all,

>From Keith Zimmerman in TX....

>Here is one I doubt anyone has seen on the HBD before.  
>A friend of mine plans on living on a yacht once he retires. He
questioned
>me about the 
>possibility of brewing on his boat.  I'm not sure this is possible
because
>of the pitching 
>of the boat in rough water. I'm wondering if something could be easily
>built to keep his 
>fermenter steady. I told him that I would check around and see if I
could
>by some 
>strange chance find someone who may have developed a way to accomplish
>this feat.

I haven't seen anyone reply to this one yet, so here's my .02. How about
a simple gimballed carboy stand? My ancient Websters describes gimbals
as the contrivance for permitting a device such as a ships compass to
incline freely in any direction, so that it will remain plumb and level
when it's support is tipped. The way I envision it, the framework and
base could be easily made of wood - painted for protection, and secured
to preclude sliding about the deck. The support structure for the carboy
and gimbal rings could be formed and welded from steel or aluminum.
Stainless steel pins would rotate in bronze bushings.  I won't insult
anyone with my poor ascii art, but maybe an ME or draftsman out there
would like to take a shot at it.

I continue to be amazed and delighted with the quality and quantity of
useful, informative and inquisitive posts to this forum, personal
bashing excepted. Some of the discussions such as A.J.'s water chemistry
are about a mile over my head, but heck, it's not much fun to learn
about stuff you already know. I especially liked Sam Mize' analogy of
the HBD to a one room schoolhouse. That's right on the mark.  We even
have a couple of class clowns ;-)

Steve Cloutier
 -Diligently gathering bits and pieces for a 2 tier system in land-locked
Minneapolis.


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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:48:00 EDT
From: Lostboy676 at aol.com
Subject: RIMS/bruheat mashtun

Hi all, this is my first time posting and I have to say thanks to all who
repeat there posts over and over. I am one of those who is benifiting from
repeat posts. It seems whenever I try to look for a subject from the archives,
all I get are headaches.Having said this, I have to ask a question that I'm
sure thats been asked many times ( and probably will again) 
 I have been trying to  learn  about RIMS and I know that there are a lot of
web sites out there to help a newbie like my self. So what are some of
everyones favorites?
 Also I was wondering what owners of Bruheat Mash Tuns ( and similar products
) thought of there investments? Can they be incorporated into a RIMS?
 Thanks again to all who answer redundant and repetitive questions, and I
would especially like to thank Al K and some of the others who really seems to
donate alot of there time to these boards. I think you  should know you are
apprieciated.
 Privite e-mails are welcome.
 Dave O'Connell


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